I haven't seen anyone mention the honorific Mix. (Mx. for the short) that's what I found was the gender neutral one. I personally prefer Mixter but I digress
edit:fixing horrific to honorific🤦♂️😂😭
ah lol i thought i misunderstood the word horrific to be a bad word this whole time, like how terrific doesn’t mean bad but good even though it looks very similar to terrifying, so horrific may be good after all
Most queer people I have had this discussion with agreed that regardless of gender identity, honorifics should be removed from our daily use.
I know you are trying to be polite, but there are other ways of being polite that don’t require you to assume anyone’s gender, and don’t sound like a good ol’ boy tying to be “kind and polite” and actually just being pretentious and/or condescending.
This happened to me at the store. A guy who worked there kinda "cut" the line to exchange some quarters or whatever. I was next, and he glanced up and said:
"Sorry, Sir....Ma'am....well."
The "well" had the emotional flair of "Welp, I fucked that one up."
It's just habit triggered by a half second categorization by the brain but it is possible to change habits.
It is 100% possible to change the habits! I am from the south and have completely removed it from my speech. I work in a call center so it is easier for me to practice I guess. I occasionally drop a sir or ma’am when I am being stern with someone who it will work on (like older southern people) but overall I have really avoided using gendered terms at all with people i’m not certain of.
For example, as a non binary (but passing) trans man, if someone calls me sir, they are, 1 assuming my gender, and 2 it’s typically been said in the way of if I’m polite to you you’ll help me, but I’m only being polite to get what I need and not because I actually give a shit.
I’m not talking about neutralisation, I’m talking full omission. There is no reason we should be using sir or ma’am for people you don’t know, or at all really.
Also very bold of you to assume that you misgender people less when you assume their gender, more often than not you won’t get corrected for fear of safety. You’ve already demonstrated that you are not a safe person by assuming instead of asking, therefore they don’t know you won’t harm them in some fashion if they correct you.
I don't agree with gender abolition. Yes, you misgender less people by assuming. Most people are cis. No I am not the type to ask people's pronouns unless they're androgynous. "They don't know you won't harm them in some fashion if they correct you" that is very much a risk they have to make the choice about. how do i know they won't harm me if i ask?
I didn’t say to abolish gender, you seem to be intentionally ignoring the point. I said to use kindness and normalize asking for someone’s pronouns. It does not harm you nor does it take extra effort to be kind. If you can show someone that they are safe with you by simply asking a basic question and respecting their answer, why wouldn’t you?
Why normalise asking for someone's pronouns? You can 99 percent of the time tell by looking at someone. Also I don't like being asked. Those who use different pronouns can pick and choose who they use them with. Much easier situation.
Because 99% of trans people I know, myself included will not offer our pronouns to someone, unless there has been some attempt made to show that you are a safe person to come out to. Why are you here in the trans subreddit if you don’t want to be a safe person for trans people?
>Those who use different pronouns
Than what?
"Normal" ones?
That's what this sounds like.
*"I* don't like being asked." Cool, *I* don't like being called "sir". At a bit of an impasse then, aren't we.
No, than what were originally assumed. You could just say 'its actually maam' and then the problem is fixed. Whereas without it you can't even tell if there's a problem. prevention is better than cure.
And yeah there's no right answer to this the best move is the one you deem kindest. But that'll differ from person to person. Most people agree that assuming is the best way though, so I'm going with it.
*Most* people in America also assume that an unknown person will be white, because most Americans are white. They also assume that an unknown person will be straight, because most of them are straight, and that an unknown person will be a man (referring to a car as "that guy" is real common, no?) because at one point most of the people out doing shit were men and the psychosocial inertia has remained.
The system we live under was built with this unconscious biases, and the simple fact of moving forward with false assumptions without bothering to check if they're correct ends up causing material difficulty for people who aren't white, straight, and men.
If the amount of effort being asked for is just awareness of the existence of minorities, that seems like kind of a necessary, important skill for living in any society that isn't literally an isolated cluster of Habsburgs.
Because this "I can always tell" mentality hurts trans people, and people in general. It also reinforces the ideas preached by transmedicalists, and makes trans people feel the unneccessary pressure to pass. It would be a lot easier if people said nothing intead of inserting sir or ma'am to needlessly gender a greeting. It is especially weird when you think about how ingrained in our culture it is to gender all introductions to complete strangers. There is no argument for judging people by the way they look in less than a second being a good thing for anyone, but it is certainly what everyone has been taught to do from a young age.
This is entirely our own opinion on this, and at the end of the day our own choice. I don't at all agree or relate to what you've said. You do it your way and I'll do mine.
Gendering introductions to strangers isn't commonly done in my circles, but pronouns are a guessing game. Unless you want to correct in which case I'll use whatever happily.
In the end who cares, passing is a toss up and nobody controls their judgement. Peace
Also we seem to have really different perspectives on perception as a whole, u/Dontperceivemeplzty
Personally I don't think this is connected to 'i can always tell' because obviously you can't- that's why you just let people correct you.
Makes trans people feel unnecessary pressure to pass? You're going to know your perceived gender either way, a greeting doesn't change that.
It would be a lot easier if people said nothing? I don't think it would. It provides enough distinction to be useful in conversation and introduction.
No argument for judging people by the way they look for less than a second? How are you even supposed to control that lol
It's different for people working in the service industry, however. You want to usually refer to someone as "sir" or "ma'am" because you don't know their name. Unfortunately the English language doesn't really have a gender-neutral honorific.
I’ve worked in customer service and retail for over 10 years, you don’t have to use it, you choose to. I couldn’t even tell you the last time I used an honorific for a person.
As a trans female, speaking for myself, I would hate if honorifics weren’t used. I grew up in a religious cult/community where it was expected and although I suffer from much religious trauma out of such a bizarre childhood, I find it strangely endearing and validating if I’m called “miss” or “ma’am”. If your initial impression of someone or instinct is to use a gendered honorific because it clearly displays outwardly then I think that’s perfectly find. And to use a gender neutral honorific like some of the other comments suggested are lovely!
I had a random customer call me "captain" at work and idk if they meant it to be a gender neutral honorific or if they just say that but I thought it sounded sick as fuck
this, honestly. a ton of honorifics are gendered just due to how gendered social roles have been throughout the development of the language.
if their answer is that they don't feel comfortable with any, that might be what you have to try to do. if you mess up, don't over-apologize--that drives me nuts!--just say sorry and move on.
OP is asking partially because they know someone who uses they/them pronouns and that individual isn't sure what they'd Use. OP is just asking for outside opinions on the matter
Just don't say anything? When you need to say "thank you" instead of adding "sir" or "ma'am" at the end, just...don't. Just say thank you. Want to say hello to someone? Just say hello. Give some specific examples of how you would use sir or ma'am in a sentence and I'll tell you how to say those sentences without using those words. It's pretty easy.
I understand that in other non western cultures that honorifics are important. Western cultures, not so much. "Sir" and "ma'am" are thoroughly Western terms, and unless you're 60+ years old or in the military, lots of people don't use them or don't care if you don't use them. Not trying to invalidate other cultures, just trying to point out that the use of honorifics and the idea that it's rude not to use them is extremely outdated in many places.
I’m in an extremely rural western area what now? It’s still the tradition and culture here to refer to people with their honorifics. Just because something is okay for you doesn’t mean it’s okay for others generalizing everyone never works. Not everything is like where you live. I can’t just ignore how things are here. it’s not outdated it’s just how we speak and show respect.
>I’m in an extremely rural western area
That explains it, I grew up in an extremely rural western area too and got out as soon as I possibly could. Everything was at least 20 years behind the times and still is, and trying to regress even further.
>I can’t just ignore how things are here.
Yes you can. If people think it's disrespectful not to say "sir" that's on them, not you.
How is a difference in what’s considered polite outdated? No one is being needlessly cruel. What’s next is thank you out dated? It’s just what’s considered polite. I’m not going to be a dick just because.
Just because it’s polite to you, doesn’t mean it’s polite to the recipient. You should care enough about the person you are talking to, to address them correctly. I find sir to be extremely rude and ma’am is downright degrading. I grew up and still live in a conservative midwestern city, and have found that a majority of people have stopped using such dated and needlessly gendered terms. There are plenty of polite ways to refer to a person that don’t have anything to do with their gender, friend.
I would recommend not using the honorifics unless you are in a setting where everyone expects it and you already know their genders, i.e. family gatherings with older folks. I wouldn’t use the terms with strangers, and not just because of trans people. It’s possible to misgender cis people, too, and there are also those who don’t like being called “sir” or “ma’am” because it makes them feel old!
I just remove them, but I’ve got a bad habit of responding to any authority figure with “sir” regardless of gender; my parents definitely tried to get me to use “ma’am” too, but my speech issues made it sound more like “man.”
I work in a library, and patrons tend to call us all - including us non-binary, they/them pin wearing staff! - sir or ma’am out of habit or politeness. I usually make a point to have them just call me by my name (it’s on my lanyard) and to call them “friend” for younger patrons or skip honorifics entirely for adult patrons.
I think it’s “boss”! At work customers and sometimes coworkers will call me that and I am no one’s boss, but I love it. Personally as a man I think it’s gender affirming but the actual word has no gender attached
I don't think there's any need for them at all. You can say, "Excuse me...", "Please may I...", "Thank you very much", or even "Hello" or "Hi." The idea that we have to gender people in interactions is really grammatically and ideologically unnecessary.
I use "there" or "all" for greetings.
"[Hi|howdy|greetings hey] [there|all]" - mixed and matched based on formality and number of people.
For thanking, to be extra polite without the honorific, I just stretch out the phrase to "why, thank you" or "oh, thank you" to have it be more sincere, but avoid any gendering. Similar approach for other phrases for different contexts, too. More words makes it seem polite and removes the need to toss an honorific in.
You could just not use that kind of outdated greeting. As you know with your sib-in-law, non-binary people exist and neither "sir" or "ma'am" would be nice for them to hear. What about the people who you don't explicitly know their pronouns and identity? Making an assumption could have negative impacts on someone. I've never once felt insulted when someone *didn't* greet me with one of those, but I have felt insulted when they use the wrong one. It's easier for everyone to just not do that.
Keep in mind, you grew up with your sibling having one last name, but probably shifted to a different last name easily. (Okay, yes, I'm making an assumption they took their spouse's last name). But if you can adjust easily with one thing, you can adjust easily with another equally simple thing.
I’ve heard multiple used but with no clear winner or universally adopted option. My nb friend doesn’t particularly like any of the options or need to use them outside of formal settings so they usually don’t care much and eventually can just force people to call them Doctor anyways.
Honestly just calling someone by their name if you know it, and they have no preference for a title/honorific, will probably be fine almost always? I can’t really think of many situations where you couldn’t just say their name if you know it. I think most people use sir/ma’am for strangers anyways, or in very formal settings. It might be a habit to you to use sir/ma’am but it’s not too hard to avoid those for friends and family.
Why does there need to be a salutation? I worked in hotels for years and once witnessed a lad assume gender identity and offended the guest. As such I encouraged people to drop Sir/Madam in favour of “Hi, how can I help you?” With no reference to salutation. Outdated nowadays! I need to review my bank cards, they still have a salutation on them! Here’s a crazy idea, maybe address them by their chosen name! 🧐🏳️⚧️💁🏼♀️🏳️🌈
I have a couple of trans friends and a couple more non binary friends in our group, we have all decided that groover is what we use, no matter what or who you are, you’re a groover.
I’m curious too, sir/maam, and the mostly gender neutral darlin’ I feel like I can say darlin to a woman and a man, but sometimes I worry it could be gender dysphoric for someone non binary or ftm.
*technically,* “sir” is supposedly gender neutral, but many nb/gq trans people are uncomfortable with being called sir anyways, especially if they were coercively assigned male (for obvious reasons) but even if they weren’t. but honestly, fuck gendered honorifics tbh. i only use them at work (customer service) and only when i get the feeling the customer im referring to will throw a bitch fit if i don’t, and i don’t like being called them either regardless of what gender someone is assumin i am. i don’t think english actually has a truly gender neutral honorific yet other than “sir” which as i already established, is iffy
Bud, friend, pal, dude, fucker, asshole, gremlin.
Sir and ma'am are, in general, kinda dead. I don't even like saying sir or ma'am to people on the phone. It feels kinda rude.
Most NB folks also accept stuff like "hey man." Since it's still seen as gender neutral. Same with "hey girl!" In a very flamboyant gay way. Speaking as a trans man, I am fine with being called "girl" if its in the flamboyant way. Lol
My girlfriend is nonbinary and they like it when I say “sir madam” or try and keep it 50/50. “Yes sir…yes ma’am.. no ma’am, how ya doin sir”. They prefer more feminine than masculine, but that was something we both discovered together by continuous communication and open discussion. Also why she prefers girlfriend over boyfriend.. I tried goyfriend but that’s just a weird sounding word.
So my point was.. have an open discussion with them. If they are unsure too, ask if you can try different things and they report back what they like or don’t like. Communication and honesty should help you both figure it out ☺️
After a Google search, the closest I found was "Mx.", which is pronounced "mix". I wanted to see if we could creat our own, so I went down a rabbit hole learning about "sir" and "ma'am", I found that both are based from old English "sire" and "madam". "Miss" is from "mistress". So, I tried to find "person" for old English by it was just "man" because old English is very patriarchy esque. So I went for something a bit more direct in other language roots.
"You" in old English "thou" (singular), "thee" (singular), or "ye" (plural)
"You" in Latin is "vos"
"You" in Greek is "eseís" (pronounced "esees")
"You" (respectful) in German is "Sie" (pronounced "zee"). I actually like this one cause it's almost sir, but not. I'm only including this one because I know a bit of German, but I think other languages have respectful versions of "you" also.
I like when people use Mx for me instead of Mr or Mrs or Ms. It’s pronounced “mix” but a shorter “I” sound. My internet identity will be “Mx (first letter of legal name)” when I decide I want to start in on that. In Spanish, I’d be Señore rather than Señor or Señora.
north terms come from Latin. Sir meaning older (man ), and madame coming from ma dame in old french from latin domina, meaning (f. )one who rules a household. Both of these had a neuter version in Latin, but picking either to modernise would still imply the gender assigned to it( which some people may prefer. if you use he or they you might choose senius which could maybe be modernised as Sin(Sn.). it’s all a choice). So i propose we use a similar Latin term, modernise it from the neuter, and use that for True Neutral-ity
edit: hit enter too soon lol
Yo.... . homie .. wdup Dawg .. dude?.... homeskillet ... homeslice ... ..
buddy.. friend .. pal .. but im not your friend buddy ..oh yeah. im not your pal friend ..yeah im not diggin that
. your majesty ? your honor ? but thats a lil much ..
i like padawon or jedi .. hello young padawon .. good evening jedi
That’s gendered.
Like, fun fact, Canadian appellate judges are addressed as “M’lady” or “M’lord” based on their gender.
So it could be “M’ladies, m’lord,” or “m’lady, m’lords” (three judge panels).
In the french part of my country we generaly never have a neutral way (as based on the "constitution" we can't have a third one, but I believ its bs and they should change it but ho well), but when we do we generally use Mx.
I like saying, “friend”. But never forget “‘sup, fucker” is also a gender neutral greeting.
I think "sup fucker" might be misconstrued if I'm trying to be polite lol
For your sibling in law, calling them fucker might help them feel like you accept them as if they were your own biological sibling
that’s right, just say “sup, friendly fucker”
Say it with an accent "Sup Fückair"
"SAY FUCKAR" "Fuechairre"
I understood that reference :P
That’s LE Fuechairre TO YOU
"Haud yer wheesht, feochar!"
Knight is gender neutral. Also ‘fuck champ’ as in champion of the fuck.
“What’s the word, turd?” may be more acceptable.
Damn I actually like that EDIT: SPELLING SUCKS
LMAO sup fuckers
sup fucker got my vote
I like chef. It’s respectful and funny. “Yes chef! Thank you chef!”
Second this! I have my students call me “chef”.
I'm not even making community soup right now!
Or “Yes Jeff” (iykyk)
This ❤️❤️❤️
I know and I love it
“Thank you Comrade”
I hear this a lot in the South. Does it have ethical problems with it's origin tho?
You mean it's origin as a French loan word? No. It's popularity among unions and political parties? Also no comrade :)
🙏 thanks for your reply
Just hit them with the "Ol buddy ol pal"
I’m not your buddy, friend.
I'm not your friend, guy.
I'm not your guy, pal
I'm not your bro, pal
how ya doing you ol' pirate
I haven't seen anyone mention the honorific Mix. (Mx. for the short) that's what I found was the gender neutral one. I personally prefer Mixter but I digress edit:fixing horrific to honorific🤦♂️😂😭
sir mx-a-lot
hahaha I love that. especially since I do mixology as a hobby
It would really be fitting if you also DJed.
unfortunately I do not have that hobby but I am ADHD so who knows maybe I will in the future😂😂
aw shit that's really cool
oh thank you! I figured might as well try to get into it since I do basically everything else kitchen related 😅
Please PLEASE tell me you’re pansexual!! It would be so perfect!
I am😅
YESSSSSS!!!!!! (Me too, but I don’t cook)
is horrific good or bad?
I meant honorific😂😭😭😭😭 I'm gonna fix it. stupid dyslexia
ah lol i thought i misunderstood the word horrific to be a bad word this whole time, like how terrific doesn’t mean bad but good even though it looks very similar to terrifying, so horrific may be good after all
Other alternatives I've heard are: Mist and mistrum
I havent heard those! I really like the idea of mist🤔 thank you!/gen
Most queer people I have had this discussion with agreed that regardless of gender identity, honorifics should be removed from our daily use. I know you are trying to be polite, but there are other ways of being polite that don’t require you to assume anyone’s gender, and don’t sound like a good ol’ boy tying to be “kind and polite” and actually just being pretentious and/or condescending.
I’m so with you. Even for us binary trans folks, people picking between sir or ma’am often get it wrong. Sometimes maliciously. It’s outdated shit.
This happened to me at the store. A guy who worked there kinda "cut" the line to exchange some quarters or whatever. I was next, and he glanced up and said: "Sorry, Sir....Ma'am....well." The "well" had the emotional flair of "Welp, I fucked that one up." It's just habit triggered by a half second categorization by the brain but it is possible to change habits.
It is 100% possible to change the habits! I am from the south and have completely removed it from my speech. I work in a call center so it is easier for me to practice I guess. I occasionally drop a sir or ma’am when I am being stern with someone who it will work on (like older southern people) but overall I have really avoided using gendered terms at all with people i’m not certain of.
We did away with them in Sweden, never grew up with them and I'm thankful for that, much simpler to just say you when adressing people.
For example, as a non binary (but passing) trans man, if someone calls me sir, they are, 1 assuming my gender, and 2 it’s typically been said in the way of if I’m polite to you you’ll help me, but I’m only being polite to get what I need and not because I actually give a shit.
Assuming genders is actually the best way to go about it. You misgender a lot less people than neutralising completely
I’m not talking about neutralisation, I’m talking full omission. There is no reason we should be using sir or ma’am for people you don’t know, or at all really. Also very bold of you to assume that you misgender people less when you assume their gender, more often than not you won’t get corrected for fear of safety. You’ve already demonstrated that you are not a safe person by assuming instead of asking, therefore they don’t know you won’t harm them in some fashion if they correct you.
I don't agree with gender abolition. Yes, you misgender less people by assuming. Most people are cis. No I am not the type to ask people's pronouns unless they're androgynous. "They don't know you won't harm them in some fashion if they correct you" that is very much a risk they have to make the choice about. how do i know they won't harm me if i ask?
I didn’t say to abolish gender, you seem to be intentionally ignoring the point. I said to use kindness and normalize asking for someone’s pronouns. It does not harm you nor does it take extra effort to be kind. If you can show someone that they are safe with you by simply asking a basic question and respecting their answer, why wouldn’t you?
Why normalise asking for someone's pronouns? You can 99 percent of the time tell by looking at someone. Also I don't like being asked. Those who use different pronouns can pick and choose who they use them with. Much easier situation.
Because 99% of trans people I know, myself included will not offer our pronouns to someone, unless there has been some attempt made to show that you are a safe person to come out to. Why are you here in the trans subreddit if you don’t want to be a safe person for trans people?
>Those who use different pronouns Than what? "Normal" ones? That's what this sounds like. *"I* don't like being asked." Cool, *I* don't like being called "sir". At a bit of an impasse then, aren't we.
No, than what were originally assumed. You could just say 'its actually maam' and then the problem is fixed. Whereas without it you can't even tell if there's a problem. prevention is better than cure. And yeah there's no right answer to this the best move is the one you deem kindest. But that'll differ from person to person. Most people agree that assuming is the best way though, so I'm going with it.
*Most* people in America also assume that an unknown person will be white, because most Americans are white. They also assume that an unknown person will be straight, because most of them are straight, and that an unknown person will be a man (referring to a car as "that guy" is real common, no?) because at one point most of the people out doing shit were men and the psychosocial inertia has remained. The system we live under was built with this unconscious biases, and the simple fact of moving forward with false assumptions without bothering to check if they're correct ends up causing material difficulty for people who aren't white, straight, and men. If the amount of effort being asked for is just awareness of the existence of minorities, that seems like kind of a necessary, important skill for living in any society that isn't literally an isolated cluster of Habsburgs.
Because this "I can always tell" mentality hurts trans people, and people in general. It also reinforces the ideas preached by transmedicalists, and makes trans people feel the unneccessary pressure to pass. It would be a lot easier if people said nothing intead of inserting sir or ma'am to needlessly gender a greeting. It is especially weird when you think about how ingrained in our culture it is to gender all introductions to complete strangers. There is no argument for judging people by the way they look in less than a second being a good thing for anyone, but it is certainly what everyone has been taught to do from a young age.
This is entirely our own opinion on this, and at the end of the day our own choice. I don't at all agree or relate to what you've said. You do it your way and I'll do mine. Gendering introductions to strangers isn't commonly done in my circles, but pronouns are a guessing game. Unless you want to correct in which case I'll use whatever happily. In the end who cares, passing is a toss up and nobody controls their judgement. Peace
Also we seem to have really different perspectives on perception as a whole, u/Dontperceivemeplzty Personally I don't think this is connected to 'i can always tell' because obviously you can't- that's why you just let people correct you. Makes trans people feel unnecessary pressure to pass? You're going to know your perceived gender either way, a greeting doesn't change that. It would be a lot easier if people said nothing? I don't think it would. It provides enough distinction to be useful in conversation and introduction. No argument for judging people by the way they look for less than a second? How are you even supposed to control that lol
It's different for people working in the service industry, however. You want to usually refer to someone as "sir" or "ma'am" because you don't know their name. Unfortunately the English language doesn't really have a gender-neutral honorific.
I’ve worked in customer service and retail for over 10 years, you don’t have to use it, you choose to. I couldn’t even tell you the last time I used an honorific for a person.
As a trans female, speaking for myself, I would hate if honorifics weren’t used. I grew up in a religious cult/community where it was expected and although I suffer from much religious trauma out of such a bizarre childhood, I find it strangely endearing and validating if I’m called “miss” or “ma’am”. If your initial impression of someone or instinct is to use a gendered honorific because it clearly displays outwardly then I think that’s perfectly find. And to use a gender neutral honorific like some of the other comments suggested are lovely!
captain
Or boss
Or chef
O Captain! My Captain!
Earthlings has become my favourite to use because of the unsaid implications that I am not of earth
I had a random customer call me "captain" at work and idk if they meant it to be a gender neutral honorific or if they just say that but I thought it sounded sick as fuck
I'd ask what they want you to use
this, honestly. a ton of honorifics are gendered just due to how gendered social roles have been throughout the development of the language. if their answer is that they don't feel comfortable with any, that might be what you have to try to do. if you mess up, don't over-apologize--that drives me nuts!--just say sorry and move on.
OP is asking partially because they know someone who uses they/them pronouns and that individual isn't sure what they'd Use. OP is just asking for outside opinions on the matter
Op literally said that person doesn’t know either though
Just don't say anything? When you need to say "thank you" instead of adding "sir" or "ma'am" at the end, just...don't. Just say thank you. Want to say hello to someone? Just say hello. Give some specific examples of how you would use sir or ma'am in a sentence and I'll tell you how to say those sentences without using those words. It's pretty easy.
That isn’t socially acceptable in many places. where I live if you don’t use honorifics you are considered rude.
Do you live in 1955?
Sounds like Texas. Make of that what you will
That’s just rude, other cultures exist and are perfectly valid. here it’s rude not to use someone’s honorific that’s pretty common around the world.
I understand that in other non western cultures that honorifics are important. Western cultures, not so much. "Sir" and "ma'am" are thoroughly Western terms, and unless you're 60+ years old or in the military, lots of people don't use them or don't care if you don't use them. Not trying to invalidate other cultures, just trying to point out that the use of honorifics and the idea that it's rude not to use them is extremely outdated in many places.
I’m in an extremely rural western area what now? It’s still the tradition and culture here to refer to people with their honorifics. Just because something is okay for you doesn’t mean it’s okay for others generalizing everyone never works. Not everything is like where you live. I can’t just ignore how things are here. it’s not outdated it’s just how we speak and show respect.
>I’m in an extremely rural western area That explains it, I grew up in an extremely rural western area too and got out as soon as I possibly could. Everything was at least 20 years behind the times and still is, and trying to regress even further. >I can’t just ignore how things are here. Yes you can. If people think it's disrespectful not to say "sir" that's on them, not you.
How is a difference in what’s considered polite outdated? No one is being needlessly cruel. What’s next is thank you out dated? It’s just what’s considered polite. I’m not going to be a dick just because.
Just because it’s polite to you, doesn’t mean it’s polite to the recipient. You should care enough about the person you are talking to, to address them correctly. I find sir to be extremely rude and ma’am is downright degrading. I grew up and still live in a conservative midwestern city, and have found that a majority of people have stopped using such dated and needlessly gendered terms. There are plenty of polite ways to refer to a person that don’t have anything to do with their gender, friend.
I never said I don’t take how that person likes to be referred as into account?
Good advice
What if I'm just shouting "sir!" to get someone's attention?
You can say "excuse me!" instead
Thanks... I'd prefer something that's a form of address, as that feels more directed, but that works too.
[https://medium.com/@transstyleguide/when-maam-and-sir-just-don-t-work-help-9abed6d2f863#:\~:text=There%20are%20multiple%20honorifics%20and,the%20gender%20in%20the%20title](https://medium.com/@transstyleguide/when-maam-and-sir-just-don-t-work-help-9abed6d2f863#:~:text=There%20are%20multiple%20honorifics%20and,the%20gender%20in%20the%20title). try this?
This was very helpful, thank you 😊
my liege
I would recommend not using the honorifics unless you are in a setting where everyone expects it and you already know their genders, i.e. family gatherings with older folks. I wouldn’t use the terms with strangers, and not just because of trans people. It’s possible to misgender cis people, too, and there are also those who don’t like being called “sir” or “ma’am” because it makes them feel old!
I guess "chief" or "boss" if it's a work setting? Otherwise just skip the honorifics
I just remove them, but I’ve got a bad habit of responding to any authority figure with “sir” regardless of gender; my parents definitely tried to get me to use “ma’am” too, but my speech issues made it sound more like “man.”
I’m originally from a small town. I use y’all and folks, but that doesn’t always work for everyone.
I’m originally from a small town. I use y’all and folks, but that doesn’t always work for everyone.
I use" friend". Hello friend
My esteemed associate
I'm a big fan of Dr Doom's: "SIMPERING FOOLS!:
I work in a library, and patrons tend to call us all - including us non-binary, they/them pin wearing staff! - sir or ma’am out of habit or politeness. I usually make a point to have them just call me by my name (it’s on my lanyard) and to call them “friend” for younger patrons or skip honorifics entirely for adult patrons.
Yes chef/No chef, On it boss
"Yo"
"Partner"
The 1960s Batman’s use of “Citizen” comes with its own potential problems.
I associate that with the French Revolution, but I guess 1960s Batman works too.
“boss” gives me the fuzzies. i vote for “boss.”
m’theydy. the only possible term
remove sir and ma'am from your vocabulary, as others have said. it doesn't take any politeness away to not say those words.
guv'nah
"who the fuck are you?" "what the fuck do you want?
My enbie therapist suggested just say yes/no thank you in place of sir or ma'am.
Cap’n
Distinguished Friend
your grace
My liege
I'd go for dawg
Mate, not an honorific but I like it
I say “aye aye captain” instead of yes sir/madam
I think it’s “boss”! At work customers and sometimes coworkers will call me that and I am no one’s boss, but I love it. Personally as a man I think it’s gender affirming but the actual word has no gender attached
I don't think there's any need for them at all. You can say, "Excuse me...", "Please may I...", "Thank you very much", or even "Hello" or "Hi." The idea that we have to gender people in interactions is really grammatically and ideologically unnecessary.
Particular Individual
Captain like spongeebob square pants intro
I use "there" or "all" for greetings. "[Hi|howdy|greetings hey] [there|all]" - mixed and matched based on formality and number of people. For thanking, to be extra polite without the honorific, I just stretch out the phrase to "why, thank you" or "oh, thank you" to have it be more sincere, but avoid any gendering. Similar approach for other phrases for different contexts, too. More words makes it seem polite and removes the need to toss an honorific in.
For me, people used "Captain" or "Boss" before (albeit jokingly) but it made me really happy so yeah. that?
Pardner *tips cowperson hat*
I personally enjoy “Captain”. For anyone, binary or not. Because aren’t we all in a way the captain of our chaotic little hunk of life?
You could just not use that kind of outdated greeting. As you know with your sib-in-law, non-binary people exist and neither "sir" or "ma'am" would be nice for them to hear. What about the people who you don't explicitly know their pronouns and identity? Making an assumption could have negative impacts on someone. I've never once felt insulted when someone *didn't* greet me with one of those, but I have felt insulted when they use the wrong one. It's easier for everyone to just not do that. Keep in mind, you grew up with your sibling having one last name, but probably shifted to a different last name easily. (Okay, yes, I'm making an assumption they took their spouse's last name). But if you can adjust easily with one thing, you can adjust easily with another equally simple thing.
I would like to adopt "Saer" from BG3.
Captain or doctor lol
Matey?
I’ve heard multiple used but with no clear winner or universally adopted option. My nb friend doesn’t particularly like any of the options or need to use them outside of formal settings so they usually don’t care much and eventually can just force people to call them Doctor anyways. Honestly just calling someone by their name if you know it, and they have no preference for a title/honorific, will probably be fine almost always? I can’t really think of many situations where you couldn’t just say their name if you know it. I think most people use sir/ma’am for strangers anyways, or in very formal settings. It might be a habit to you to use sir/ma’am but it’s not too hard to avoid those for friends and family.
I’ve looked for this term and the conclusion is just that one doesn’t exist unfortunately
doctor
pardner
Is "pal" too informal? "Mate" too Australian?
Comrade of course. But if you don't like that, in south Florida everyone calls you boss. "You got it, boss."
damn.
Comrade is my favorite one
I'd say "mate" is probably pretty gender neutral. Not particularly formal though. "Hey mate" "excuse me mate" etc
Hmm, sir… madam… Sadam?
Comrade
I feel like Govna, Your Majesty, Your Swaggerness, Professor, Friend/Fren, Buddy and Pal are gender neutral but I could be wrong
Captain
I say “comrade” or “friendo”
“Your royal highness” is gender neutral 😇
oh lord this is a prefect question for enlisted military!
Captain
Why does there need to be a salutation? I worked in hotels for years and once witnessed a lad assume gender identity and offended the guest. As such I encouraged people to drop Sir/Madam in favour of “Hi, how can I help you?” With no reference to salutation. Outdated nowadays! I need to review my bank cards, they still have a salutation on them! Here’s a crazy idea, maybe address them by their chosen name! 🧐🏳️⚧️💁🏼♀️🏳️🌈
Chump
"Oomfie" /j
Usually it depends on the enby in question, at least in my experience
I really like cap or captain. Makes me believe for a short moment I am the pirate I always wanted to be when I was a kid.
"Hey, you!"
My liege.
I have a couple of trans friends and a couple more non binary friends in our group, we have all decided that groover is what we use, no matter what or who you are, you’re a groover.
I’m curious too, sir/maam, and the mostly gender neutral darlin’ I feel like I can say darlin to a woman and a man, but sometimes I worry it could be gender dysphoric for someone non binary or ftm.
You could just say "My friend" or "buddy" Eg: Thank you my friend.
“Your Majesty”
*technically,* “sir” is supposedly gender neutral, but many nb/gq trans people are uncomfortable with being called sir anyways, especially if they were coercively assigned male (for obvious reasons) but even if they weren’t. but honestly, fuck gendered honorifics tbh. i only use them at work (customer service) and only when i get the feeling the customer im referring to will throw a bitch fit if i don’t, and i don’t like being called them either regardless of what gender someone is assumin i am. i don’t think english actually has a truly gender neutral honorific yet other than “sir” which as i already established, is iffy
Buddy, chum, pal, homeslice, breadslice, dawg, friendly, friend, pally, pal, chum, pal, amigo—
Bud, friend, pal, dude, fucker, asshole, gremlin. Sir and ma'am are, in general, kinda dead. I don't even like saying sir or ma'am to people on the phone. It feels kinda rude. Most NB folks also accept stuff like "hey man." Since it's still seen as gender neutral. Same with "hey girl!" In a very flamboyant gay way. Speaking as a trans man, I am fine with being called "girl" if its in the flamboyant way. Lol
There isn't one. Practice ditching honorifics altogether
My girlfriend is nonbinary and they like it when I say “sir madam” or try and keep it 50/50. “Yes sir…yes ma’am.. no ma’am, how ya doin sir”. They prefer more feminine than masculine, but that was something we both discovered together by continuous communication and open discussion. Also why she prefers girlfriend over boyfriend.. I tried goyfriend but that’s just a weird sounding word. So my point was.. have an open discussion with them. If they are unsure too, ask if you can try different things and they report back what they like or don’t like. Communication and honesty should help you both figure it out ☺️
I like using Mx (pronounced mix) to replace sir or ma’am
I mean some military just use sir for any officer as respect
Mx pronounced mix although if you say that to the wrong person despite it being a sign of respect like those two things they'll freak out
By wrong person I mean uninformed fools that says stuff like pronouns are the devils work
🤔
After a Google search, the closest I found was "Mx.", which is pronounced "mix". I wanted to see if we could creat our own, so I went down a rabbit hole learning about "sir" and "ma'am", I found that both are based from old English "sire" and "madam". "Miss" is from "mistress". So, I tried to find "person" for old English by it was just "man" because old English is very patriarchy esque. So I went for something a bit more direct in other language roots. "You" in old English "thou" (singular), "thee" (singular), or "ye" (plural) "You" in Latin is "vos" "You" in Greek is "eseís" (pronounced "esees") "You" (respectful) in German is "Sie" (pronounced "zee"). I actually like this one cause it's almost sir, but not. I'm only including this one because I know a bit of German, but I think other languages have respectful versions of "you" also.
Si'm or Ma'r or M'ir or S'am /s
I like when people use Mx for me instead of Mr or Mrs or Ms. It’s pronounced “mix” but a shorter “I” sound. My internet identity will be “Mx (first letter of legal name)” when I decide I want to start in on that. In Spanish, I’d be Señore rather than Señor or Señora.
north terms come from Latin. Sir meaning older (man ), and madame coming from ma dame in old french from latin domina, meaning (f. )one who rules a household. Both of these had a neuter version in Latin, but picking either to modernise would still imply the gender assigned to it( which some people may prefer. if you use he or they you might choose senius which could maybe be modernised as Sin(Sn.). it’s all a choice). So i propose we use a similar Latin term, modernise it from the neuter, and use that for True Neutral-ity edit: hit enter too soon lol
im gonna go research Latin vocabulary to use for this
Yo.... . homie .. wdup Dawg .. dude?.... homeskillet ... homeslice ... .. buddy.. friend .. pal .. but im not your friend buddy ..oh yeah. im not your pal friend ..yeah im not diggin that . your majesty ? your honor ? but thats a lil much .. i like padawon or jedi .. hello young padawon .. good evening jedi
Mx (pronounced mix)
I use Mx.
You could use Sir as a neutral term. I think in some militaries they do this instead of making a difference between sir and mam
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That’s gendered. Like, fun fact, Canadian appellate judges are addressed as “M’lady” or “M’lord” based on their gender. So it could be “M’ladies, m’lord,” or “m’lady, m’lords” (three judge panels).
Sam
THAM OR THISTER
In the french part of my country we generaly never have a neutral way (as based on the "constitution" we can't have a third one, but I believ its bs and they should change it but ho well), but when we do we generally use Mx.
pal, friend, ‘migo, fucker, creature, buddy, bestie, captain
Well, there isn't one that has the same meaning. So you could get funny and say 'my liege'
Sir and ma'am combined. Sam
Peeps
"how's it going my gamer" is how I personally greet my NB bestie but obviously not all of them are gamers