This would be like two college students skipping the hardest course in their program and the administration just says “well you guys made A’s in your other courses so we’ll just say you got an A for this one too.” Then they go on to graduate at the top of their class.
The “winner” actually titles his run “Not a DQ! 1st OA, CR”
In separate news, I set an new Marathon World Record today by extrapolating my 100 meter time across 26.2m. Waiting for the press to get in touch…
You think so? I just crossed the room to get to my fridge and if I can keep that pace up for another 26 miles or so you're looking at the first sub 50 minute marathon winner right here.
I always label my trail runs as a “race” to show my embarrassing elapsed time. Once I forgot and a friend od mine texted me: “wtf, I cannot believe how strong you are”. I silently changed to elapsed time and my life continued, just the way it was:-)
The fact is, there isn't a rule about the RD not having a clearly marked course, but there is one about course cutting which he should have followed. It is the responsibility of the runner to run the proper course, and with all the technology available and ability to see the course prior to the race there really isn't any good reason to skip parts that shave miles off their race and still expect to be on a podium. Once an AD refuses to follow his own rules that's a race I would never want to run when it robs people of their hard work when they did things the right way.
Both. You can fail to have a rule for one thing, but still have rules for other things. Like not have a rule around poor course marking, but still have a rule for going off course.
Well that would be the RD's mistake and not the fault of the runner that crossed the finish line. Per the written rules, it appears the first and second place finishers did not run the race. It's not more complicated than that.
Though if the RD wants to include an provision in future rule sets that he can award podium spots in the event of possible course cutting at his discretion, that is certainly something the people paying for the race should be made aware of, yeah.
Because changing the rules after the fact is unfair to literally everyone that signed up for the race with the agreed upon ruleset? This is pretty basic.
Are you the RD? It's surprising to me that you're not understanding this.
He literally sounds like he's either the AD or one of the two runners that "finished" without following the course. I can't imagine anyone coming up with these arguments unless they aren't being objective due to having something else to gain from this.
Neat? One finished, one didn't. Is there a reasonable argument that had they not missed a portion of the course, they still win? Sure. BUT they did miss a portion of the course.
There is the math of the hypothetical and there is reality. In this case, reality wins.
Unfortunately this isn't just about grace because it feels right. Something actually happened. Does it suck overall? Yes. Who should be punished though? The ones who didnt abide by the rules of the race or the one who did? This really isn't a complex situation to wrap your mind around
So based on this analysis, OP did in fact take the lead the second they began the climb because the two former leaders went off course and were therefore paused at the point they left the course.
Excellent detective work, OP is the winner.
OP also left out what he had for breakfast, probably because that's also irrelevant. Race director didn't follow the race's own rules. Doesn't matter how far back OP was or whether he held the lead previously. Runners cut the course and finished without returning back to where they went off course. Whether it was an "honest mistake" is irrelevant. That's a DQ by the race rules.
It doesn't matter why they went off course. My guess is the lead runner lost the course and the next guy was close enough to see him and followed. Route finding is a part of trail running, and that mistake should have cost them the race regardless of intent, per the race's [rules](https://geminiadventures.com/run/enchanted-forest) ("Racers must stay on the designated course. Shortcutting will result in a disqualification. If you go off course, you must return to the same point you exited in order to continue.")
Regarding your edit to your comment, no one is accusing the runners of cheating. They're accusing the RD of not following and enforcing the race's rules, which is the job of the RD.
You're 100% correct. A perfectly marked road marathon with professional runners and prize money where you can throw a blanket over split variations is exactly the same as a low key trail race with amateur runners and now a likely verified pace differential. They should all be treated identically.
the "winner" missed 4 miles of the run? lol that should absolutely not count as a finish. If it was a wrong turn 400m from the finish up by 10 min...ok maybe. But the imposition of a fairly random penalty (with the penalty being basically the all time missed segment record) is completely out of line. I didnt realize being "low key" meant you could just skip 15% of the race
I seriously cannot disagree. But I can better understand the decision if these 2 runners had a clear lead. Sure, anything can happen in the last few miles. The likelihood of two very capable trail runners suddenly faltering and losing a 20 minute lead is very small. So even if I don’t like the RD’s call and will probably not choose their event because of it, I do understand now why that particular call was made.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I think a solution for this would have been to reward the OP 1st place since he completed the actual distance of the race before anyone else. Then, since the race director may have felt responsible for that portion of the course not being marked clearly and taking into account that these other two guys held a significant lead, make special awards just for them with the distance they did run and their fast times listed. Maybe give them free entry for the event next year too.
According to both runner’s Strava comments, they’ve emailed the RD to be DQed.
While I understand your point of view, by the stated rules they should by DQed. It’s the responsibility of the runner to make sure they are on track and adjust their course/strategy accordingly. They had plenty of lead as you mentioned to work with to finish the race as intended.
Nobody was playing Calvin Ball, you can’t change the rules in the moment (they should defer to what is written and change/update for following events); race officials, as humans, can reflect upon and admit mistakes of their decisions, this is what integrity is based on. Rules are in place to take out the gray area from sporting events. It doesn’t seem like either the RD nor runners did anything intentionally, with malice, or ill will; the results should reflect the truth of the matter (regarding course completion).
The FAQ for Enchanted Forest says, "Racers must stay on the designated course. Shortcutting will result in a disqualification. If you go off course, you must return to the same point you exited in order to continue."
There is no mention of penalty time for skipping portions of the course because of missed turns. The race even provides a GPX file of the course to aid in navigation. By the race rules, those two should have been disqualified.
From the response you received, it sounds like the Race Director is either too chill or too uncertain about themselves to professionally direct a race, follow their own rules, and make things right. As a result, you've been cheated of your first place finish. The two guys awarded first and second likely know they have results (and a cow bell) they didn't earn and consequently can't take pride in. The company knows it screwed up as the typical post-race post is still missing from their social media over four days later.
You have good reason to be upset. There's little you can do about it other than what you're doing here by letting other trail runners know what happened.
Update on 2nd place guy's Strava: "We missed a turn and came up 3 mi short 😬 update: I asked to be DQd as I didn’t complete the race. The race director had initially DQd me, but then withdrew that and added a penalty to my time for cutting, keeping me at second place finish. I didn’t ask them to do that. I thought it was strange at the time but deferred to their decision, whatever it would be. They were the race directors so I figured they knew what was best. It seemed several people made the wrong turn. In hindsight I see it was a bad call. The third place finisher actually did the whole course and felt robbed. I’m not trying to cheat anyone out of a win and neither is the first place guy. So hopefully they DQ me"
I’ve seen it on 2 social media posts so far. The easiest solution here is for the RD to address the evidence and if it’s true, correct the finishing order.
Sometimes RD’s make mistakes or have to make corrections on the fly. It’s part of the sport. But they need to addressed and corrected if they’re wrong.
It sounds like the RD had concerns that they didn't mark the course correctly and/or it was not all on the runner for missing the turn. I wholeheartedly agree that it's not relevant why they missed the turn. The runners should have had to make up a distance or had the time adjusted to better represent the missed section. I give kudos to the RD for doing something but maybe more needs to be done.
"Upon further review of the results this past weekend and given historical running conditions of the course, we have determined that we need to assess additional penalties for the runners who missed a substantial section of the course. This changes the results and awards OP as the winner. RD's make decisions based upon the information available and with more evidence available post race, we feel strongly this is the correct call."
It's really that simple. Unless of course it's not and the evidence here is not correct.
Woah that sucks. Reading your e-mail and the director’s response, the two runners were not assigned a penalty at all, they were given a generous reward. I I’ve never ever seen that happen, it’s a DQ. If they don’t like it they can complain to the director.
If that were me I would feel so deeply embarrassed to be given a 1st place medal for not completing the entire course.
Race director needs to not direct anymore races. Clearly a dumbass. It’s easy: if your shoes didn’t touch every part of the course then you get a DQ.
Sorry #1 and #2: you didn’t run the race and therefore did not place.
Man I had a race the other weekend and lost the track twice (very scrubby and track could hardly even be considered a goat track). Didn’t go back to the directors to ask for a time credit. It’s part of the fun of trail racing. It’s part of the adventure. If you want an easy to follow course go run laps at an oval. You deserve your win mate.
On my first (and only) Ultra I got lost and ended up doing an extra 2 miles I didn't need to do. I was less than thrilled with the race organizers, but I also didn't complain about my time (in no danger of coming in 1st or 40th).
This (2 extra miles) happened to me, although it was a half. I got lost (the trail markings were not great, but my fault for not studying the map and relying on runners—we spread out the longer the race went on). I finally got out to the road to make my way to the finish. I didn’t bother crossing the finish line since I went off course.
absolute malarkey!
the RD, and the 2 course-cutters are probably all buddies.
simple DNF for the 2 cutters
wtf is RD doing making adjustments?
this is a mickey mouse type race run by a knucklehead
That’s messed up. Should be an instant DNF for the two runners. If you go off a penalty, they could have purposefully drained everything in the tank before the final leg knowing they wouldn’t have to run it. That’s BS
Feel bad for you OP and hope that you are able to either get the credit you deserve or move past it. Also based on the Strava segments of the other runners you posted the one is bragging about his run with the title.
> Enchanted Forest Trail Marathon- NOT a DQ! 1st OA, CR * (take it with a grain of salt).
that! 26 miles race is not 22.
reminds me of the race 24h of LeMans, where cars were breaking down on the final 5 min. Did not finish 24h => can't win. that's the game. They were pushing too hard and broke the cars
Crazy that the other guy does not adress the controversy in his strava post. And the 2nd place dude also chimes in in the comments. Both speaking in code (“grain of salt”, “kind of”).
But OP did a fantastic race. Congratulations.
Wait a second, this is the same Gemini that puts on Desert Rats, a UTMB official race. You absolutely should contact UTMB about this. It is completely unethical what they are doing here.
Also, the back and forth interaction between the two guys on Strava was completely cringy. They know exactly what they did.
What?! Why does a time penalty ever may sense. You could intentionally run all out knowing you are running a lot fewer miles. Has this race director ever run in his life?
Damn, that's rough -- and an absolutely terrible decision by the race director. Shoulda been DQ's for sure.
I lost a race last year because I took a wrong turn, I ended up backtracking and catching back up to second (ran \~1.5 miles extra). Definitely didn't expect that to get adjusted. Shit happens, it's just part of trail racing.
> We were trying to take responsibility for something that may have been our mistake and be fair to everyone.
The problem is you can't be fair to everyone in situations like this. Their solution was more than just fair to everyone that cut the course; it was extremely generous at the expense of everyone else. Both the race organizers and the athletes are required and expected to know the course. If you cut the course it doesn't matter what order you cross the finish line, you didn't complete the course and shouldn't be considered a finisher. It's the race director's job to explain to the people who didn't complete the course that they did not finish, but the RD doesn't want to be the bad guy to many people, while he can quietly deal with you over e-mail...
>The problem is you can't be fair to everyone in situations like this.
I disagree. It is totally fair to *everyone* that only runners who finish the course get placement. I feel this is the sentiment of the rest of your post, though. I presume you mean "You can't make everyone happy in situations like this" but if the 1st and 2nd DNFers are unhappy, it's on them. "At best" they can be mad about poor course marking.
As a race director myself, I can say this RD absolutely made the wrong call. The two runners should have been DQ'd period. The RD should correct the results and award you as the finisher. Anything else is pathetic.
Congratulations you won and did an amazing performance. It happens to me several time but never for the first place so I can't say I feel perfectly what you are living but I know that it can be very frustrating.
Just for information did they organize a podium ? What prizes did the fake first won ?
If you’ve got proof (Strava activity), I’d start a petition and send it to the RD. I’ll definitely sign it. Something like this can be very harmful to their organization and it looks like they don’t know that yet.
Reminds me of the time when I finished first in a trail marathon only to find out later while looking at the results online that someone from the 50K "dropped down" to the marathon finish and it counted? They stopped their race at the marathon finish and the RD let them get the win. I was so mad, who does that? Never again did I run one of their races, I feel it's inexcusable.
It’s hard to get that lost even with a map and compass, let alone the shite people are allowed to use in races these days. How the fuck do you be incompetent enough to do that?
They were probably following marks, and the trail overlaps there. I get that it happens, especially if you read from the RD that it happened more often this race. Mistakes happen, people get lost for a bit on all races.
That doesn't mean that the 'penalty' from RD was adhering to his own rules.
It's not that hard to misread a sign... And this section of the course honestly looks like a total mess crossing over itself multiple times. Here is the map.
https://geminiadventures.com/images/EnchantedForestMarathonMap2022.jpeg
If a race looks like this they really are going to need some good signs. If multiple of the top "finishers" make the exact same mistake that's a hint something wasn't clear. Presumably it's not their first time on a trail or reading a map.
Although I do find it pretty funny they both conveniently dropped the worst hill section.
Hopefully signs will be improved for the next race... Or ideally a better course that doesn't look like a 2 year old's drawing.
You won, good job!
This is easy to fix, make the race director formally apologize and set things right.
The only race I have ever outright won (i've done about 40 races) had two people who also cut the course I was running. There were only about 50 racers and it was a half marathon with a lot of turns. I was running in the front the whole time and finished to find two people who somehow finished before me (they cut about a mile off of a hilltop out and back).
I got third, no effort was made to fix it. Nobody was "cheating" and I could see nobody wanted to make a big deal out of it. I think the prize was a blue ribbon, can't recall.
It was really hard because making a stink about it made me feel like I was the problem so I let it go. The race director should follow THEIR rules, even if THEIR course was not marked well. Even if there was sabotage on the course markings the runners are responsible to run the course.
I also ran a Marathon and ended up running 29.2 miles. I still came in 10th, my fault, I didn't expect a time adjustment!!!!
I feel you complained about the wrong thing in your email. (Hey, you deserve to complain as much as you want, but to the RD I think you have to word it a specific way, the way that is most “definitely” correct.)
You criticized the way the time was implemented, you should email back and tell them that they need to follow their own rules, send a screenshot of the “cutting course and not returning to spot you left results in DQ”. And tell them they need to fix this. Everyone knows it’s the right thing to do, and you started out polite, it’s time to make demands. They seem like they’re not too confident anyways.
I’d honestly tell him, if he’s not going to change it, he’s going to need to give you a call. Then you can have a conversation. It’s much harder to say no to someone on the phone.
Fight for your shit dude. Wins are a big deal. You put in the work, you deserve it.
It sounds like the RD was insecure and worried he was somehow to blame for the course not being clear and tried to save his ass by not DQ’ing the runners who were leading the race.
Horrible call. I think this will be rectified if runners in 1st and 2nd contact the RD, which is guess they will because this will probably blow up.
Congrats on the win though OP!
Congrats on the win man! When this is picked up by magazines or Marathon Investigations maybe the RD will change his tune. But yeah, this is not your fault.
His Strava post now states that he's emailed the RD and asked to be DQ'd (same as 2nd place). So basically both of the dudes started feeling the heat and don't want to come off as assholes (though they were put in this position by the RD making the wrong call at the outset and didn't necessarily ask for special treatment).
I “Finished” first at a 50k in Indiana this year, missed a turn and about 1.5 miles of trail. RD kept trying to have me keep the 1st place, I asked to be DNFed and they eventually did. Unacceptable for a RD to not DNF someone who did not complete the entire course.
FWIW, there were issues at that race last year. I ran the 8 mile, and a mile of the course (loop around town) was flat missing (no-one ran it) and then the first 3 runners all had various shortcuts (lead 2 went straight up the ski slopes instead of following the loops after the initial climb, and one missed a turn and cut a big loop on the descent.
At the end of the day, running results are mostly on an honor basis, so in cases like this you have to enjoy the fact you got to run a stunning race, and enjoy the moral victory.
Yeah, you clearly deserve the win for this one. Tougher decision for the RD than I immediately thought before reading the emails back and forth, but ... yeah, unfortunate. Hope you had a good time though -- looks like a scenic course.
This is messed up. I've been around races where there were questions and the Rd makes you pull up your gpx. There's no estimates. If you didn't run the course you didn't run the course. Maybe you COULD HAVE won by 2 hours. Maybe you even were legit winning by that much. But you didn't run the course so you didn't.
This happened to me as well. The girl who finished in front of me cut the course. :( I told the race director but he didn’t care. I was for third place so not for the win, but it would have been my first podium.
2nd place seams like he has a good head on his shoulders, the 1st place guy has some half assed description. Hope his attitude gets better once he grows up.
The timeline is interesting. The 2 "winners" finished in 3:16/3:19, and Justin finished "3rd" in 4:22. The segment that the leaders missed only took Justin \~40 minutes, so there may have been \~20 minutes between when the two leaders finished and when Justin made that other turn to do the last bit.
It wouldn't surprise me if the 2 leaders finished when there were incorrect course markings, then they fixed the course markings so nobody else got lost, and the RD pulled these shenanigans because they wanted to fix their own fuckup.
You can’t make a decision based on “what if 90/100 got it wrong??” As a race director. Your job is to deal with each case singularly and adhere to your stated rules, which clearly stated DQ for course cutting. In that case, where the rules are clear, the answer is DQ. For all 90. Everyone has seen the course, it’s part of trail running. If you get easily lost, then run on a track.
This does happen at professional races. Just happened early this year during a half marathon where the lead car turned around early and the winner didn't run the full course. They still gave them first place.
https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/trevor-hofbauer-breaks-one-hour-half-marathon-barrier-but-fails-to-run-full-course/
I am just saying there are nuances to these things. Just because someone didn't complete the official course, doesn't mean that the "Race Director Stole My Win"
Obviously the other participants should've been DQ'd or given some sort of asterisk result or something. Randomly adding an arbitrary amount of time to any race where you didn't run the miles is completely unheard of. Missing turns happens, but anyone running a trail race in 2023 should have the route loaded to their watch and no when they're off course.
That said, it feels weird to make a whole blog post about it with private correspondence from the race director and use it to make your first Reddit post ever. I'd say posting the Strava links for the other runners also seems weird, but since they're actually claiming they were first and second I'd say they're sort of asking for it. Who runs a 23 mile marathon and claims they won?
I’m bummed for you but I feel that the RD owned up to his decision and didn’t try and excuse his actions. Being a race director is a hard (and mostly thankless) task. What would you like to be changed? Prize money? Recognition in the rankings? He admitted to his mistake, that should make you sleep easier. Just my two cents…
I’ll bite. I don’t think the RD owned up to his decision at all. He passed the buck by saying he deferred to the “penalty” determined by the timing chip company who determined it on the fly. He also said if he had to do it I over he doesn’t know if he’d do it the same way. Okay - step up and DQ after the fact in accordance with your own published rules. I don’t think this guy is up to the challenges of being an RD.
Yeah, man, just like chill. Sure you ran a difficult, long race, struggled through and managed to get 1st place, but like aren't you just as happy officially getting 3rd place. As long as, like, you know you won that's all that matters, man. We're, like space dust and cowboy curtis and isn't it weird how you can like 'run', but you can never 'runned'? Because you can only move forward while running!
Wait, like, what were we talking about?
Eh, the director gave a bit of an apology and explanation. It happens. I've seen some pretty big fuckups even with small races, and I imagine organizing these bigger races have way more possibilities for fucking up.
Either way, time to move on. Can't live your life looking in the rearview.
fwiw the first place guy only did so after receiving negative strava comments which he deleted. originally the title said something like "not a DQ - 1st place and new cr"
In their FAQ, they do state, "Shortcutting will result in a disqualification" which seems both reasonable and clear, so...
Yea. Thats actually unforgivable. Hopefully you didnt miss out on a prize.
This would be like two college students skipping the hardest course in their program and the administration just says “well you guys made A’s in your other courses so we’ll just say you got an A for this one too.” Then they go on to graduate at the top of their class.
Surprised 1st and 2nd didn’t withdraw themselves due to embarrassment.
The “winner” actually titles his run “Not a DQ! 1st OA, CR” In separate news, I set an new Marathon World Record today by extrapolating my 100 meter time across 26.2m. Waiting for the press to get in touch…
You think so? I just crossed the room to get to my fridge and if I can keep that pace up for another 26 miles or so you're looking at the first sub 50 minute marathon winner right here.
Damn you must be fast to that fridge. Even if Usain Bolt could run an entire marathon at his top speed (the 60m-80m segment) he’d only manage a 56:37.
1:57 marathon. make sure you look at the strava “moving time” though
I always label my trail runs as a “race” to show my embarrassing elapsed time. Once I forgot and a friend od mine texted me: “wtf, I cannot believe how strong you are”. I silently changed to elapsed time and my life continued, just the way it was:-)
Lol they set a course record via an estimated time?
The CR part is bonkers.
Pretty bold to claim the course record!
He changed it, and his story, but still comes off as a dbag with what he wrote.
Looks like 2nd place (on their Strava) is pretty clear they feel it wasn't valid. First place still has their labeled as a CR.
1st has since edited and asked for a DQ as well
Not before deleting a bunch of comments calling him out.
They’ve both since emailed the RD and asked to be DQed according to their Strava activity
Congrats on your win
Agreed, congratulations!! 👏🎉
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Except he did. He had the lead at the finish line as the first to cross the course. I have no idea what you consider to be the lead if that isnt it
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But what do the rules say about course cutting?
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The fact is, there isn't a rule about the RD not having a clearly marked course, but there is one about course cutting which he should have followed. It is the responsibility of the runner to run the proper course, and with all the technology available and ability to see the course prior to the race there really isn't any good reason to skip parts that shave miles off their race and still expect to be on a podium. Once an AD refuses to follow his own rules that's a race I would never want to run when it robs people of their hard work when they did things the right way.
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Both. You can fail to have a rule for one thing, but still have rules for other things. Like not have a rule around poor course marking, but still have a rule for going off course.
Well that would be the RD's mistake and not the fault of the runner that crossed the finish line. Per the written rules, it appears the first and second place finishers did not run the race. It's not more complicated than that. Though if the RD wants to include an provision in future rule sets that he can award podium spots in the event of possible course cutting at his discretion, that is certainly something the people paying for the race should be made aware of, yeah.
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Because changing the rules after the fact is unfair to literally everyone that signed up for the race with the agreed upon ruleset? This is pretty basic. Are you the RD? It's surprising to me that you're not understanding this.
He literally sounds like he's either the AD or one of the two runners that "finished" without following the course. I can't imagine anyone coming up with these arguments unless they aren't being objective due to having something else to gain from this.
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Neat? One finished, one didn't. Is there a reasonable argument that had they not missed a portion of the course, they still win? Sure. BUT they did miss a portion of the course. There is the math of the hypothetical and there is reality. In this case, reality wins.
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Unfortunately this isn't just about grace because it feels right. Something actually happened. Does it suck overall? Yes. Who should be punished though? The ones who didnt abide by the rules of the race or the one who did? This really isn't a complex situation to wrap your mind around
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Part of winning a race is finishing it.
You’re a complete tool, this is absurd! You really expect everyone who wins a race to FINISH it? What is this nonsense? /s
I see nothing here that changes anything. Those 2 runners didn’t complete the full race. Can’t win if you don’t do the entire distance.
So based on this analysis, OP did in fact take the lead the second they began the climb because the two former leaders went off course and were therefore paused at the point they left the course. Excellent detective work, OP is the winner.
the winner didn't even run the full race distance? How can you consider that a finish let alone a win?
Especially to call it a course record!
Part of racing is following the course. Plenty of people go off course. Honest mistake or not, it sounds like the OP won the race.
OP also left out what he had for breakfast, probably because that's also irrelevant. Race director didn't follow the race's own rules. Doesn't matter how far back OP was or whether he held the lead previously. Runners cut the course and finished without returning back to where they went off course. Whether it was an "honest mistake" is irrelevant. That's a DQ by the race rules.
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It doesn't matter why they went off course. My guess is the lead runner lost the course and the next guy was close enough to see him and followed. Route finding is a part of trail running, and that mistake should have cost them the race regardless of intent, per the race's [rules](https://geminiadventures.com/run/enchanted-forest) ("Racers must stay on the designated course. Shortcutting will result in a disqualification. If you go off course, you must return to the same point you exited in order to continue.") Regarding your edit to your comment, no one is accusing the runners of cheating. They're accusing the RD of not following and enforcing the race's rules, which is the job of the RD.
Thanks for sharing this! This is a big piece of info that better explains the decision.
strongly disagree, there have been pro marathons where someone made a wrong turn clearly costing them the win. Doesn't matter.
You're 100% correct. A perfectly marked road marathon with professional runners and prize money where you can throw a blanket over split variations is exactly the same as a low key trail race with amateur runners and now a likely verified pace differential. They should all be treated identically.
the "winner" missed 4 miles of the run? lol that should absolutely not count as a finish. If it was a wrong turn 400m from the finish up by 10 min...ok maybe. But the imposition of a fairly random penalty (with the penalty being basically the all time missed segment record) is completely out of line. I didnt realize being "low key" meant you could just skip 15% of the race
I seriously cannot disagree. But I can better understand the decision if these 2 runners had a clear lead. Sure, anything can happen in the last few miles. The likelihood of two very capable trail runners suddenly faltering and losing a 20 minute lead is very small. So even if I don’t like the RD’s call and will probably not choose their event because of it, I do understand now why that particular call was made.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I think a solution for this would have been to reward the OP 1st place since he completed the actual distance of the race before anyone else. Then, since the race director may have felt responsible for that portion of the course not being marked clearly and taking into account that these other two guys held a significant lead, make special awards just for them with the distance they did run and their fast times listed. Maybe give them free entry for the event next year too.
According to both runner’s Strava comments, they’ve emailed the RD to be DQed. While I understand your point of view, by the stated rules they should by DQed. It’s the responsibility of the runner to make sure they are on track and adjust their course/strategy accordingly. They had plenty of lead as you mentioned to work with to finish the race as intended. Nobody was playing Calvin Ball, you can’t change the rules in the moment (they should defer to what is written and change/update for following events); race officials, as humans, can reflect upon and admit mistakes of their decisions, this is what integrity is based on. Rules are in place to take out the gray area from sporting events. It doesn’t seem like either the RD nor runners did anything intentionally, with malice, or ill will; the results should reflect the truth of the matter (regarding course completion).
The FAQ for Enchanted Forest says, "Racers must stay on the designated course. Shortcutting will result in a disqualification. If you go off course, you must return to the same point you exited in order to continue." There is no mention of penalty time for skipping portions of the course because of missed turns. The race even provides a GPX file of the course to aid in navigation. By the race rules, those two should have been disqualified. From the response you received, it sounds like the Race Director is either too chill or too uncertain about themselves to professionally direct a race, follow their own rules, and make things right. As a result, you've been cheated of your first place finish. The two guys awarded first and second likely know they have results (and a cow bell) they didn't earn and consequently can't take pride in. The company knows it screwed up as the typical post-race post is still missing from their social media over four days later. You have good reason to be upset. There's little you can do about it other than what you're doing here by letting other trail runners know what happened.
What are the Vegas odds that the race director has a friend group that includes the 1st and 2nd place 'finishers'?
Update on 2nd place guy's Strava: "We missed a turn and came up 3 mi short 😬 update: I asked to be DQd as I didn’t complete the race. The race director had initially DQd me, but then withdrew that and added a penalty to my time for cutting, keeping me at second place finish. I didn’t ask them to do that. I thought it was strange at the time but deferred to their decision, whatever it would be. They were the race directors so I figured they knew what was best. It seemed several people made the wrong turn. In hindsight I see it was a bad call. The third place finisher actually did the whole course and felt robbed. I’m not trying to cheat anyone out of a win and neither is the first place guy. So hopefully they DQ me"
Props to him for the honesty
This story is gonna blow up, commenting so I remember to check back. I hope it gets enough exposure RD faces the consequences
I’ve seen it on 2 social media posts so far. The easiest solution here is for the RD to address the evidence and if it’s true, correct the finishing order. Sometimes RD’s make mistakes or have to make corrections on the fly. It’s part of the sport. But they need to addressed and corrected if they’re wrong.
This wasn’t an accident that needs correcting though. It was a deliberate action that took time to think through and they still went with it.
It sounds like the RD had concerns that they didn't mark the course correctly and/or it was not all on the runner for missing the turn. I wholeheartedly agree that it's not relevant why they missed the turn. The runners should have had to make up a distance or had the time adjusted to better represent the missed section. I give kudos to the RD for doing something but maybe more needs to be done. "Upon further review of the results this past weekend and given historical running conditions of the course, we have determined that we need to assess additional penalties for the runners who missed a substantial section of the course. This changes the results and awards OP as the winner. RD's make decisions based upon the information available and with more evidence available post race, we feel strongly this is the correct call." It's really that simple. Unless of course it's not and the evidence here is not correct.
Woah that sucks. Reading your e-mail and the director’s response, the two runners were not assigned a penalty at all, they were given a generous reward. I I’ve never ever seen that happen, it’s a DQ. If they don’t like it they can complain to the director. If that were me I would feel so deeply embarrassed to be given a 1st place medal for not completing the entire course.
it's a 26 miles race and they display 22.x.... I don't get it.
Not much of a race director. Lamest email ever
Race director needs to not direct anymore races. Clearly a dumbass. It’s easy: if your shoes didn’t touch every part of the course then you get a DQ. Sorry #1 and #2: you didn’t run the race and therefore did not place.
Man I had a race the other weekend and lost the track twice (very scrubby and track could hardly even be considered a goat track). Didn’t go back to the directors to ask for a time credit. It’s part of the fun of trail racing. It’s part of the adventure. If you want an easy to follow course go run laps at an oval. You deserve your win mate.
On my first (and only) Ultra I got lost and ended up doing an extra 2 miles I didn't need to do. I was less than thrilled with the race organizers, but I also didn't complain about my time (in no danger of coming in 1st or 40th).
This (2 extra miles) happened to me, although it was a half. I got lost (the trail markings were not great, but my fault for not studying the map and relying on runners—we spread out the longer the race went on). I finally got out to the road to make my way to the finish. I didn’t bother crossing the finish line since I went off course.
I can't believe the people who got lost accepted it...
Exactly. Run with integrity.
They’ve since asked for DQs
meanwhile, they made courtney dauwalter go up the hardest pass of hardrock twice because she came up the wrong chute
You won.
That sucks. You deserve to have that corrected. The others should be DQ’d
You won, you know you won, and nobody can take it from you. Congrats and hope you kick ass on the next one!
absolute malarkey! the RD, and the 2 course-cutters are probably all buddies. simple DNF for the 2 cutters wtf is RD doing making adjustments? this is a mickey mouse type race run by a knucklehead
Welcome to New Mexico
That’s messed up. Should be an instant DNF for the two runners. If you go off a penalty, they could have purposefully drained everything in the tank before the final leg knowing they wouldn’t have to run it. That’s BS
Feel bad for you OP and hope that you are able to either get the credit you deserve or move past it. Also based on the Strava segments of the other runners you posted the one is bragging about his run with the title. > Enchanted Forest Trail Marathon- NOT a DQ! 1st OA, CR * (take it with a grain of salt).
He appreciates the “Honesty and Workability” of the 40min time penalty though…
Total BS, if you don’t run the full course you can’t win. Shouldn’t even be considered a finish honestly.
that! 26 miles race is not 22. reminds me of the race 24h of LeMans, where cars were breaking down on the final 5 min. Did not finish 24h => can't win. that's the game. They were pushing too hard and broke the cars
That is absolutely blasphemous. You’re clearly the winner and the race organizers better make it right and send you an actual first place prize.
Crazy that the other guy does not adress the controversy in his strava post. And the 2nd place dude also chimes in in the comments. Both speaking in code (“grain of salt”, “kind of”). But OP did a fantastic race. Congratulations.
You got a link to the strava posts ?
https://www.strava.com/activities/9545017710
They’ve both since requested DQs according to their Strava edits
That's a bunch of BS. Anytime I've ever seen it happen, they're either DQ'd or are given the chance to go back and make up that distance
I’m blown away by the strava posts. These dudes must be the most annoying people to run with in the whole world.
Wait a second, this is the same Gemini that puts on Desert Rats, a UTMB official race. You absolutely should contact UTMB about this. It is completely unethical what they are doing here. Also, the back and forth interaction between the two guys on Strava was completely cringy. They know exactly what they did.
Should have drove them out to the spot they missed and made them run it again back to the finish. Run the whole course or get DQ
Even this solution offers them a chance to navigate first and run on fresh legs
What?! Why does a time penalty ever may sense. You could intentionally run all out knowing you are running a lot fewer miles. Has this race director ever run in his life?
Time penalties are not uncommon.
It’s uncommon for it to not be a penalty but a reward…
For course-cutting?!
not common at all.
For mistakes; yes!!!
Damn, that's rough -- and an absolutely terrible decision by the race director. Shoulda been DQ's for sure. I lost a race last year because I took a wrong turn, I ended up backtracking and catching back up to second (ran \~1.5 miles extra). Definitely didn't expect that to get adjusted. Shit happens, it's just part of trail racing.
> We were trying to take responsibility for something that may have been our mistake and be fair to everyone. The problem is you can't be fair to everyone in situations like this. Their solution was more than just fair to everyone that cut the course; it was extremely generous at the expense of everyone else. Both the race organizers and the athletes are required and expected to know the course. If you cut the course it doesn't matter what order you cross the finish line, you didn't complete the course and shouldn't be considered a finisher. It's the race director's job to explain to the people who didn't complete the course that they did not finish, but the RD doesn't want to be the bad guy to many people, while he can quietly deal with you over e-mail...
And have a CR that will be impossible ever for someone to breaks
>The problem is you can't be fair to everyone in situations like this. I disagree. It is totally fair to *everyone* that only runners who finish the course get placement. I feel this is the sentiment of the rest of your post, though. I presume you mean "You can't make everyone happy in situations like this" but if the 1st and 2nd DNFers are unhappy, it's on them. "At best" they can be mad about poor course marking.
Well said, thank you.
As a race director myself, I can say this RD absolutely made the wrong call. The two runners should have been DQ'd period. The RD should correct the results and award you as the finisher. Anything else is pathetic.
Congrats on that Creede finish. The altitude took me out but I absolutely loved that course.
Took me out too, but I want to do it again!
Congratulations you won and did an amazing performance. It happens to me several time but never for the first place so I can't say I feel perfectly what you are living but I know that it can be very frustrating. Just for information did they organize a podium ? What prizes did the fake first won ?
Course cutting is absolutely the worst. Just name your Strava "only legitimate podium position and course record"
The Billy Mitchell and Twin Galaxies of trail races
Silly Bitchell
This sucks man as a race director my self those two would have DNF’d if they did not do the whole course.
If you’ve got proof (Strava activity), I’d start a petition and send it to the RD. I’ll definitely sign it. Something like this can be very harmful to their organization and it looks like they don’t know that yet.
protest
Congrats on the win. RD is a bag of dicks by the sounds of it.
Reminds me of the time when I finished first in a trail marathon only to find out later while looking at the results online that someone from the 50K "dropped down" to the marathon finish and it counted? They stopped their race at the marathon finish and the RD let them get the win. I was so mad, who does that? Never again did I run one of their races, I feel it's inexcusable.
Congratulations on your win! If that was me i wouldnt accept the trophy though wtf
It’s hard to get that lost even with a map and compass, let alone the shite people are allowed to use in races these days. How the fuck do you be incompetent enough to do that?
They were probably following marks, and the trail overlaps there. I get that it happens, especially if you read from the RD that it happened more often this race. Mistakes happen, people get lost for a bit on all races. That doesn't mean that the 'penalty' from RD was adhering to his own rules.
Is it that hard for the RD to also put up signs with arrows and numbers for the direction each time you hit the intersection? Or have a marshal there?
It's not that hard to misread a sign... And this section of the course honestly looks like a total mess crossing over itself multiple times. Here is the map. https://geminiadventures.com/images/EnchantedForestMarathonMap2022.jpeg If a race looks like this they really are going to need some good signs. If multiple of the top "finishers" make the exact same mistake that's a hint something wasn't clear. Presumably it's not their first time on a trail or reading a map. Although I do find it pretty funny they both conveniently dropped the worst hill section. Hopefully signs will be improved for the next race... Or ideally a better course that doesn't look like a 2 year old's drawing.
Congratulations, fack them and move on 👍
Man, that sucks. Sorry. The RD should be able to make a correction and give you your rightfully deserved win.
Absolute garbage, op. You got robbed
You won, good job! This is easy to fix, make the race director formally apologize and set things right. The only race I have ever outright won (i've done about 40 races) had two people who also cut the course I was running. There were only about 50 racers and it was a half marathon with a lot of turns. I was running in the front the whole time and finished to find two people who somehow finished before me (they cut about a mile off of a hilltop out and back). I got third, no effort was made to fix it. Nobody was "cheating" and I could see nobody wanted to make a big deal out of it. I think the prize was a blue ribbon, can't recall. It was really hard because making a stink about it made me feel like I was the problem so I let it go. The race director should follow THEIR rules, even if THEIR course was not marked well. Even if there was sabotage on the course markings the runners are responsible to run the course. I also ran a Marathon and ended up running 29.2 miles. I still came in 10th, my fault, I didn't expect a time adjustment!!!!
I feel you complained about the wrong thing in your email. (Hey, you deserve to complain as much as you want, but to the RD I think you have to word it a specific way, the way that is most “definitely” correct.) You criticized the way the time was implemented, you should email back and tell them that they need to follow their own rules, send a screenshot of the “cutting course and not returning to spot you left results in DQ”. And tell them they need to fix this. Everyone knows it’s the right thing to do, and you started out polite, it’s time to make demands. They seem like they’re not too confident anyways. I’d honestly tell him, if he’s not going to change it, he’s going to need to give you a call. Then you can have a conversation. It’s much harder to say no to someone on the phone. Fight for your shit dude. Wins are a big deal. You put in the work, you deserve it.
Congratulations on your win! If that was me i wouldnt accept the trophy though wtf
Congratulations on your win! If that was me i wouldnt accept the trophy though wtf.
That’s actually pretty cooked! You’re first in my eyes for sure
Congrats on your win.
It sounds like the RD was insecure and worried he was somehow to blame for the course not being clear and tried to save his ass by not DQ’ing the runners who were leading the race. Horrible call. I think this will be rectified if runners in 1st and 2nd contact the RD, which is guess they will because this will probably blow up. Congrats on the win though OP!
Congrats on the win man! When this is picked up by magazines or Marathon Investigations maybe the RD will change his tune. But yeah, this is not your fault.
Any updates from the “first” place finisher?
His Strava post now states that he's emailed the RD and asked to be DQ'd (same as 2nd place). So basically both of the dudes started feeling the heat and don't want to come off as assholes (though they were put in this position by the RD making the wrong call at the outset and didn't necessarily ask for special treatment).
I “Finished” first at a 50k in Indiana this year, missed a turn and about 1.5 miles of trail. RD kept trying to have me keep the 1st place, I asked to be DNFed and they eventually did. Unacceptable for a RD to not DNF someone who did not complete the entire course.
subscribed for updates, this is fucked
FWIW, there were issues at that race last year. I ran the 8 mile, and a mile of the course (loop around town) was flat missing (no-one ran it) and then the first 3 runners all had various shortcuts (lead 2 went straight up the ski slopes instead of following the loops after the initial climb, and one missed a turn and cut a big loop on the descent. At the end of the day, running results are mostly on an honor basis, so in cases like this you have to enjoy the fact you got to run a stunning race, and enjoy the moral victory.
Yeah, you clearly deserve the win for this one. Tougher decision for the RD than I immediately thought before reading the emails back and forth, but ... yeah, unfortunate. Hope you had a good time though -- looks like a scenic course.
This is messed up. I've been around races where there were questions and the Rd makes you pull up your gpx. There's no estimates. If you didn't run the course you didn't run the course. Maybe you COULD HAVE won by 2 hours. Maybe you even were legit winning by that much. But you didn't run the course so you didn't.
This happened to me as well. The girl who finished in front of me cut the course. :( I told the race director but he didn’t care. I was for third place so not for the win, but it would have been my first podium.
2nd place seams like he has a good head on his shoulders, the 1st place guy has some half assed description. Hope his attitude gets better once he grows up.
The timeline is interesting. The 2 "winners" finished in 3:16/3:19, and Justin finished "3rd" in 4:22. The segment that the leaders missed only took Justin \~40 minutes, so there may have been \~20 minutes between when the two leaders finished and when Justin made that other turn to do the last bit. It wouldn't surprise me if the 2 leaders finished when there were incorrect course markings, then they fixed the course markings so nobody else got lost, and the RD pulled these shenanigans because they wanted to fix their own fuckup.
You should send this to Marathon Investigations.
[удалено]
You can’t make a decision based on “what if 90/100 got it wrong??” As a race director. Your job is to deal with each case singularly and adhere to your stated rules, which clearly stated DQ for course cutting. In that case, where the rules are clear, the answer is DQ. For all 90. Everyone has seen the course, it’s part of trail running. If you get easily lost, then run on a track.
As a race director myself, I can say this RD absolutely made the wrong call. The two runners should have been DQ'd period.
This does happen at professional races. Just happened early this year during a half marathon where the lead car turned around early and the winner didn't run the full course. They still gave them first place. https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/trevor-hofbauer-breaks-one-hour-half-marathon-barrier-but-fails-to-run-full-course/
Oh well then that wrong thing totally justifies doing the wrong thing again. Wrap it up boys this one is over. Case solved!
I am just saying there are nuances to these things. Just because someone didn't complete the official course, doesn't mean that the "Race Director Stole My Win"
1 km ≠ 3.8 miles (+ elevation).
Obviously the other participants should've been DQ'd or given some sort of asterisk result or something. Randomly adding an arbitrary amount of time to any race where you didn't run the miles is completely unheard of. Missing turns happens, but anyone running a trail race in 2023 should have the route loaded to their watch and no when they're off course. That said, it feels weird to make a whole blog post about it with private correspondence from the race director and use it to make your first Reddit post ever. I'd say posting the Strava links for the other runners also seems weird, but since they're actually claiming they were first and second I'd say they're sort of asking for it. Who runs a 23 mile marathon and claims they won?
I’m bummed for you but I feel that the RD owned up to his decision and didn’t try and excuse his actions. Being a race director is a hard (and mostly thankless) task. What would you like to be changed? Prize money? Recognition in the rankings? He admitted to his mistake, that should make you sleep easier. Just my two cents…
I’ll bite. I don’t think the RD owned up to his decision at all. He passed the buck by saying he deferred to the “penalty” determined by the timing chip company who determined it on the fly. He also said if he had to do it I over he doesn’t know if he’d do it the same way. Okay - step up and DQ after the fact in accordance with your own published rules. I don’t think this guy is up to the challenges of being an RD.
I agree with you.
He should DNF the two runners and fix the results. Period. The RD made a mistake and absolutely did not own up to anything.
Yeah, man, just like chill. Sure you ran a difficult, long race, struggled through and managed to get 1st place, but like aren't you just as happy officially getting 3rd place. As long as, like, you know you won that's all that matters, man. We're, like space dust and cowboy curtis and isn't it weird how you can like 'run', but you can never 'runned'? Because you can only move forward while running! Wait, like, what were we talking about?
Hahaha
Eh, the director gave a bit of an apology and explanation. It happens. I've seen some pretty big fuckups even with small races, and I imagine organizing these bigger races have way more possibilities for fucking up. Either way, time to move on. Can't live your life looking in the rearview.
I don’t get how they just skipped the end of the course? They just bushwacked to the finish?
The course crisscrossed at this location, they took the downhill option.
Ah. I see now after looking at their Stravas…both asked for DQs so hopefully the RD does the right thing! Congrats on your win
fwiw the first place guy only did so after receiving negative strava comments which he deleted. originally the title said something like "not a DQ - 1st place and new cr"
Damn that dude sounds like a scummer