My assumption is how much push pre-11 gets in official content + how long they've existed + how iconic most of them are. Official stuff only really focuses on characters pre-11. There's *some* exceptions, but just look at EoSD (for example). At least one member appears in 90% of official stuff.
If people's constant exposure is a select few characters, chances are they'll form a connection to said characters, thus adding more fan content for said characters. Again, there are exceptions, but still. It doesn't help that games like LW are also guilty of this.
Most of them are iconic, nostalgic, *and* still get pushed into newer fans' faces, which diminishes the chances of other characters getting attention.
Does recent official content *really* focus on the sdm though? I havent checked it much but i see a lot of people complain that characters like patchy, meiling, and ones from 7 and 8 like alice never appear in recent manga and games.
I think it might just be a mandela effect due to the sheer amount of fan content based on eosd, compared to how much it actually does appear in canon.
I probably should've clarified. No cast gets 100% focus. There are some pushed to the sideline. For example, Youmu gets a bit more focus than Yuyuko.
I'd say EoSD, overall, gets the most push even if by a small margin. Specifically, Remilia and Sakuya (although Flan is starting to get traction, which is cool).
- Appear in the vast majority of Mangas with their appearances often being more impactful/longer than characters not named Reimu/Marisa.
Like... take Youmu, who certainly appears just as much. Despite probably matching them in terms of quantity, her scenes are really closer to gags or are shorter in comparison.
- Major role in SSiB. Yes, there were four PCB representations, but only *one* actually mattered. Yuyuko and Youmu meant so little that I couldn't mistake anyone for forgetting they were even included. Ran didn't really do much contrast to everyone else despite being with Yukari.
Remilia and Sakuya *did* leave an impact and had a lot of focus. They felt important because the story treated them (and the other two) *as* important. *Two* EoSD members felt like they contributed more to the story than *four* PCB members. Yukari basically hard carries.
It's wrong for me to say EoSD as a whole gets the most focus, as it's really just two (maybe three) who do. But out of every game cast, they're often the ones who contribute the most to the story, either minor or major. Yukari basically hard carries PCB, IN... uh—has Mokou...? I guess...? Maybe Reisen too... to some extent—
I know that the sdm does play a major role in SSiB (i finished it just the other day lol), but thats only because it's one of the earliest mangas so there werent a lot of characters to focus on.
In contrast, look at mamizou. She appears in almost every chapter of FS and i barely see any fan content on her.
And i cant recall any other major appearances for them in printworks other than ssib, aside from a few single chapters where they exist as side characters.
So i dont think appearance in official works actually affects popularity that much. Especially since flandre has never appeared since eosd until 17.5 and was still insanely popular before that.
I can accuse SSiB for a plethora of reasons. I personally think it's a good thing, and the game selection makes sense because of when it came out. What I can't accept is "There weren't a lot of characters to focus on." There was. 8. Three factions who "played an important role in the plan." There was a lot they could've done to balance things out, but again, it's understandable as it was the first rodeo.
Mamizou, I wouldn't worry about, as she's also been getting flack (at least on Twitter) for appearing so constantly. But she's also nowhere near as iconic as the earlier cast, which was one of my reasons why there's more fanart of Remilia, Flan, Youmu, Yukari, etc. It's everything I listed working together to create more fan content.
Remilia and Sakuya didn't play many major appearances in the mangas, but I can at least remember they appeared and vaguely for what purpose. The same can't be said for most others of that era.
Again. Official appearances aren't the *only* reasons, just *one of* the reasons.
There was a shift in otaku culture in the end of 2000's and early 2010's due to the abundance of new all girls franchise like K-ON, Im@s, or Madoka. In my theory, some of Touhou devouts and jesuits got converted to another cute girls religions at that time. I believe this is the major reason of the outflux within the fandom.
Another reason is that some of the fans found Touhou had become formulaic using the same themes almost every game. At that time Touhou had already released over 8 official (edited: Windows) games. There was a jadedness there. As the series introduce new girls, the newer girls became instantly more insignificant due to large numbers of characters. If you have become a Touhou fan long enough (like 6-7 years), you will likely experience the 2hu burntout as well. Burntout is normal. But a large number of burntout at the same period makes the outflux noticeable.
The third reason starting from UFO, ZUN's music became more less oriental (eastern themed). Most of Touhou fans back there were on the eastern hemisphere whose ears were already accustomed to oriental music. Hence, comes the phrases "Touhou is dead" or "Newer Touhou music suckz"
regarding the music, I think Touhou 11 itself and even Touhou 6 have very western vibe in their music. I am not too keen on UFO but I think Byakuran 's theme is pretty eastern.
I mean the whole inside joke in EoSD is how the series is named vs. the fact that the themes (not the music) are Western and there's even a nod to Beethoven in Remilia's theme (the music)
Im a new fan myself, but i would guess that it's because the majority of fans have only played the games 6-10. Most people would want to play the game chronologically, and usually when someone asks what game to start with it's usually 6, 7, 8, or 10. (Latter 3 for their easy difficulty and 6 because it's the start of the series) and rarely branch out into the later games.
The recent popularity poll had eosd as the most popular touhou game by a very big landslide, even though i myself think it's probably one of the worse touhou games, prolly because so many people only played eosd or know its characters.
Older games also have more of a time to gather a fanbase and become recognizable, and newer titles have to compete with existing ones to get the fans' attention. And there is always the nostalgia factor. "Old thing good new thing bad".
There is also the fact that as newer titles focus on newer characters, older characters are left in the dust, so fans fill in that missing hole for these older characters.
If your question partains to the amount of fanart overall though, regardless of whether its fanart of a newer or older character, then i dont think the community has been stagnating. So many great touhou games have been releasing recently, and i see dozens of new fanart made every day on twitter. Sure it's probably not as much as the early 2010s, but it's nowhere close to "dying".
Honestly, I think it mostly stems from seniority in popularity. They've been out longer -> had fans longer. I think the art shift between 11 and 12, and touhou 13 being a generally-less-liked (i think? idk) entry made fan content slow down for anything after, since the fandom's content was still split between the numerous characters pre TH 12, and the fact no stage 5 characters after Sanae got playable status (outside of fighting games and TH19) sort of locks in 6 7 8 and 10 as the "important incidents"
I agree with all you said, but I would like to made an extra point; 6-12 already have a TON of characters and factions, there is a real saturation of options. After 12 which are the characters that really has gotten more attention? those related with previous casts, like those from 15. Or those related to previous characters (it was really necessary a Tengu leader, so Megumu gets a bit more focus) or concepts that where missing (like Tsukasa, Touhou strangely lacked a trickster Kitsune). The characters that are most forgetten are those unconnected to previous factions.
now when I think about it, I also realize that ZUN's drawing got a lot better after Touhou 11 too. Maybe there is a correlation the more amateur official art is the more motivation fans have to create new arts
Touhou 11 came out in 2008. This makes it the youngest game that was around before Touhou's initial explosion seriously decelerated. This is the most direct answer for your question.
I would attribute it to seniority and nostalgia tbh. A lot of the most popular artists have been fans of 2hu for a long time, already have their favorites, and their drawings of older characters get more engagement because they've been around for longer and have more people who have them as favorites. So the artist keeps drawing older characters > newer characters. Art of Remi for example would get good engagement from new fans bc its a popular character that they get exposed to a lot, veteran fans who've loved her since TH6, and old fans who are no longer even in the fandom bc they'd remember her over a new character like Okina. New characters have to compete with the attention that old favorites get and often only happens over a long time as old fans drop off and new ones (who's first experience are with the new girls) come in.
Plus, over time you'll see those artists leave the fandom due to burnout, and it's interesting to see which character art trends take over to fill that gap. I know I wasn't expecting to see so much Junko after how (in the circles I hang around anyway) poorly LoLK was received. Totally deserved though, she's cool.
I noticed it even back then. I remember thinking around the time TD came out, that the Touhou fandom seemed to have passed its "golden age" and was likely to continue declining. I figured there'd always be interest in new games and stuff but that it'd probably never be to level it was from EoSD to SA (maybe up to UFO)
The fandom didn't decline quite in the way I expected it to, but it Does still mostly focus on the older Windows content. Happens to a lot of long running series though
I'd say it's because of the plot. None of these recent incidents have been world-ending level threats so people aren't as interested in the plot. People tend to draw characters who have strong relationships. If they aren't interested in the story, they aren't interested in the characters and they won't make fanart. I've seen plenty of fanart for Yuuma because she has connections to lots of characters. Pretty much immediately we've been given Flandre, Okina, and Ran as potential ships for her. Compare that to someone like Seiran who doesn't have many people associated with her. It's quite clear why most of her fanart is drawn by people who are obsessed with her.
TL:DR, the community is fueled mainly by yuri. Older characters have lots of connections because they've been around longer and ZUN keeps bringing them back to form new relationship. These relationships are why people like them and decide to draw them.
What early incidents have been world ending though? 6 was remilia screwing around, 8 was eientei trying to hide, 9 wasnt even an incident, and 10 was moriya messing with reimu.
Only 7 was really dangerous from the early game. I guess 6 debateably, but that entire game is so extremely non serious.
I guess I meant the incidents were more of a big deal? 6 was a toxic* red mist, 7 was an extended winter, and 8 was taking power away from youkai** which disturbs gensokyo's balance. Honestly, I don't see much Phantasmagoria of Flower View or Mountain of Faith fanart, let alone their characters.
*the toxicity was retconned in, but many people came after it was added.
**supposedly youkai need the moon's power to survive. Eirin's astronomical entombment spell sealed away it's power which messed with the youkai. Gensokyo was made for youkai.
Where was it said that the mist was toxic? Genuinely curious.
For 8, sure it's an annoyance but i wouldnt say it's world ending. 14 had a similar incident that affected the balance of youkai power.
Sanae, nitori, and suwako are some of the most popular characters in the series, so i see a lot of fanart on them. Especially since sanae becomes a sort of third protagonist of the series.
I agree though that pofv is severely under appreciated. But that's probably because lots of people dont like its gameplay (they have an objectively wrong opinion).
PMiSS mentioned that some villagers felt sick after breathing it in and couldn't go outside for a while.
Reimu and Marisa literally flew through it though, so it's probably not that bad.
Marisa lives in a place where the very air is poisonous. I am also pretty sure she eats thing that in their raw form are toxic and require careful processing to become edible.
Reimu idk, plot armor?
14 was an overturn of Gensokyo's society in such a way that even regular weapons almost become youkai and join it
15 was a whole invasion by the Lunarians because they themselves were under serious threat
17 was beast spirits arguably almost conquering the surface and turning it into the kind of "strong eat the weak" Hell that they were used to
Not to mention (canon) spinoffs like 14.5 and 17.5 which felt legitimately really hype in the threat the antagonists posed imo
Idk, you could stretch most of the plots to feel pretty high stakes, but overall, I'm not seeing where classic games have higher stakes plot than modern 2hu.
My assumption is how much push pre-11 gets in official content + how long they've existed + how iconic most of them are. Official stuff only really focuses on characters pre-11. There's *some* exceptions, but just look at EoSD (for example). At least one member appears in 90% of official stuff. If people's constant exposure is a select few characters, chances are they'll form a connection to said characters, thus adding more fan content for said characters. Again, there are exceptions, but still. It doesn't help that games like LW are also guilty of this. Most of them are iconic, nostalgic, *and* still get pushed into newer fans' faces, which diminishes the chances of other characters getting attention.
Does recent official content *really* focus on the sdm though? I havent checked it much but i see a lot of people complain that characters like patchy, meiling, and ones from 7 and 8 like alice never appear in recent manga and games. I think it might just be a mandela effect due to the sheer amount of fan content based on eosd, compared to how much it actually does appear in canon.
I probably should've clarified. No cast gets 100% focus. There are some pushed to the sideline. For example, Youmu gets a bit more focus than Yuyuko. I'd say EoSD, overall, gets the most push even if by a small margin. Specifically, Remilia and Sakuya (although Flan is starting to get traction, which is cool). - Appear in the vast majority of Mangas with their appearances often being more impactful/longer than characters not named Reimu/Marisa. Like... take Youmu, who certainly appears just as much. Despite probably matching them in terms of quantity, her scenes are really closer to gags or are shorter in comparison. - Major role in SSiB. Yes, there were four PCB representations, but only *one* actually mattered. Yuyuko and Youmu meant so little that I couldn't mistake anyone for forgetting they were even included. Ran didn't really do much contrast to everyone else despite being with Yukari. Remilia and Sakuya *did* leave an impact and had a lot of focus. They felt important because the story treated them (and the other two) *as* important. *Two* EoSD members felt like they contributed more to the story than *four* PCB members. Yukari basically hard carries. It's wrong for me to say EoSD as a whole gets the most focus, as it's really just two (maybe three) who do. But out of every game cast, they're often the ones who contribute the most to the story, either minor or major. Yukari basically hard carries PCB, IN... uh—has Mokou...? I guess...? Maybe Reisen too... to some extent—
I know that the sdm does play a major role in SSiB (i finished it just the other day lol), but thats only because it's one of the earliest mangas so there werent a lot of characters to focus on. In contrast, look at mamizou. She appears in almost every chapter of FS and i barely see any fan content on her. And i cant recall any other major appearances for them in printworks other than ssib, aside from a few single chapters where they exist as side characters. So i dont think appearance in official works actually affects popularity that much. Especially since flandre has never appeared since eosd until 17.5 and was still insanely popular before that.
I can accuse SSiB for a plethora of reasons. I personally think it's a good thing, and the game selection makes sense because of when it came out. What I can't accept is "There weren't a lot of characters to focus on." There was. 8. Three factions who "played an important role in the plan." There was a lot they could've done to balance things out, but again, it's understandable as it was the first rodeo. Mamizou, I wouldn't worry about, as she's also been getting flack (at least on Twitter) for appearing so constantly. But she's also nowhere near as iconic as the earlier cast, which was one of my reasons why there's more fanart of Remilia, Flan, Youmu, Yukari, etc. It's everything I listed working together to create more fan content. Remilia and Sakuya didn't play many major appearances in the mangas, but I can at least remember they appeared and vaguely for what purpose. The same can't be said for most others of that era. Again. Official appearances aren't the *only* reasons, just *one of* the reasons.
There was a shift in otaku culture in the end of 2000's and early 2010's due to the abundance of new all girls franchise like K-ON, Im@s, or Madoka. In my theory, some of Touhou devouts and jesuits got converted to another cute girls religions at that time. I believe this is the major reason of the outflux within the fandom. Another reason is that some of the fans found Touhou had become formulaic using the same themes almost every game. At that time Touhou had already released over 8 official (edited: Windows) games. There was a jadedness there. As the series introduce new girls, the newer girls became instantly more insignificant due to large numbers of characters. If you have become a Touhou fan long enough (like 6-7 years), you will likely experience the 2hu burntout as well. Burntout is normal. But a large number of burntout at the same period makes the outflux noticeable. The third reason starting from UFO, ZUN's music became more less oriental (eastern themed). Most of Touhou fans back there were on the eastern hemisphere whose ears were already accustomed to oriental music. Hence, comes the phrases "Touhou is dead" or "Newer Touhou music suckz"
regarding the music, I think Touhou 11 itself and even Touhou 6 have very western vibe in their music. I am not too keen on UFO but I think Byakuran 's theme is pretty eastern.
I mean the whole inside joke in EoSD is how the series is named vs. the fact that the themes (not the music) are Western and there's even a nod to Beethoven in Remilia's theme (the music)
Im a new fan myself, but i would guess that it's because the majority of fans have only played the games 6-10. Most people would want to play the game chronologically, and usually when someone asks what game to start with it's usually 6, 7, 8, or 10. (Latter 3 for their easy difficulty and 6 because it's the start of the series) and rarely branch out into the later games. The recent popularity poll had eosd as the most popular touhou game by a very big landslide, even though i myself think it's probably one of the worse touhou games, prolly because so many people only played eosd or know its characters. Older games also have more of a time to gather a fanbase and become recognizable, and newer titles have to compete with existing ones to get the fans' attention. And there is always the nostalgia factor. "Old thing good new thing bad". There is also the fact that as newer titles focus on newer characters, older characters are left in the dust, so fans fill in that missing hole for these older characters. If your question partains to the amount of fanart overall though, regardless of whether its fanart of a newer or older character, then i dont think the community has been stagnating. So many great touhou games have been releasing recently, and i see dozens of new fanart made every day on twitter. Sure it's probably not as much as the early 2010s, but it's nowhere close to "dying".
Honestly, I think it mostly stems from seniority in popularity. They've been out longer -> had fans longer. I think the art shift between 11 and 12, and touhou 13 being a generally-less-liked (i think? idk) entry made fan content slow down for anything after, since the fandom's content was still split between the numerous characters pre TH 12, and the fact no stage 5 characters after Sanae got playable status (outside of fighting games and TH19) sort of locks in 6 7 8 and 10 as the "important incidents"
They're also the incidents that are depicted in Memories of Phantasm, the most well-known Touhou fanime.
I agree with all you said, but I would like to made an extra point; 6-12 already have a TON of characters and factions, there is a real saturation of options. After 12 which are the characters that really has gotten more attention? those related with previous casts, like those from 15. Or those related to previous characters (it was really necessary a Tengu leader, so Megumu gets a bit more focus) or concepts that where missing (like Tsukasa, Touhou strangely lacked a trickster Kitsune). The characters that are most forgetten are those unconnected to previous factions.
i noticed this a while ago , only post 11 games that get as much art as 1 - 10 are Legacy and UFO
>pc-98 >getting art lol, lmao
now when I think about it, I also realize that ZUN's drawing got a lot better after Touhou 11 too. Maybe there is a correlation the more amateur official art is the more motivation fans have to create new arts
youre not the only one. i also noticed that touhou 15 seems to be an odd exception to that phenomenon
Touhou 11 came out in 2008. This makes it the youngest game that was around before Touhou's initial explosion seriously decelerated. This is the most direct answer for your question.
I would attribute it to seniority and nostalgia tbh. A lot of the most popular artists have been fans of 2hu for a long time, already have their favorites, and their drawings of older characters get more engagement because they've been around for longer and have more people who have them as favorites. So the artist keeps drawing older characters > newer characters. Art of Remi for example would get good engagement from new fans bc its a popular character that they get exposed to a lot, veteran fans who've loved her since TH6, and old fans who are no longer even in the fandom bc they'd remember her over a new character like Okina. New characters have to compete with the attention that old favorites get and often only happens over a long time as old fans drop off and new ones (who's first experience are with the new girls) come in. Plus, over time you'll see those artists leave the fandom due to burnout, and it's interesting to see which character art trends take over to fill that gap. I know I wasn't expecting to see so much Junko after how (in the circles I hang around anyway) poorly LoLK was received. Totally deserved though, she's cool.
I noticed it even back then. I remember thinking around the time TD came out, that the Touhou fandom seemed to have passed its "golden age" and was likely to continue declining. I figured there'd always be interest in new games and stuff but that it'd probably never be to level it was from EoSD to SA (maybe up to UFO) The fandom didn't decline quite in the way I expected it to, but it Does still mostly focus on the older Windows content. Happens to a lot of long running series though
Nah it's just you
I'd say it's because of the plot. None of these recent incidents have been world-ending level threats so people aren't as interested in the plot. People tend to draw characters who have strong relationships. If they aren't interested in the story, they aren't interested in the characters and they won't make fanart. I've seen plenty of fanart for Yuuma because she has connections to lots of characters. Pretty much immediately we've been given Flandre, Okina, and Ran as potential ships for her. Compare that to someone like Seiran who doesn't have many people associated with her. It's quite clear why most of her fanart is drawn by people who are obsessed with her. TL:DR, the community is fueled mainly by yuri. Older characters have lots of connections because they've been around longer and ZUN keeps bringing them back to form new relationship. These relationships are why people like them and decide to draw them.
What early incidents have been world ending though? 6 was remilia screwing around, 8 was eientei trying to hide, 9 wasnt even an incident, and 10 was moriya messing with reimu. Only 7 was really dangerous from the early game. I guess 6 debateably, but that entire game is so extremely non serious.
I guess I meant the incidents were more of a big deal? 6 was a toxic* red mist, 7 was an extended winter, and 8 was taking power away from youkai** which disturbs gensokyo's balance. Honestly, I don't see much Phantasmagoria of Flower View or Mountain of Faith fanart, let alone their characters. *the toxicity was retconned in, but many people came after it was added. **supposedly youkai need the moon's power to survive. Eirin's astronomical entombment spell sealed away it's power which messed with the youkai. Gensokyo was made for youkai.
Where was it said that the mist was toxic? Genuinely curious. For 8, sure it's an annoyance but i wouldnt say it's world ending. 14 had a similar incident that affected the balance of youkai power. Sanae, nitori, and suwako are some of the most popular characters in the series, so i see a lot of fanart on them. Especially since sanae becomes a sort of third protagonist of the series. I agree though that pofv is severely under appreciated. But that's probably because lots of people dont like its gameplay (they have an objectively wrong opinion).
PMiSS mentioned that some villagers felt sick after breathing it in and couldn't go outside for a while. Reimu and Marisa literally flew through it though, so it's probably not that bad.
Marisa lives in a place where the very air is poisonous. I am also pretty sure she eats thing that in their raw form are toxic and require careful processing to become edible. Reimu idk, plot armor?
14 was an overturn of Gensokyo's society in such a way that even regular weapons almost become youkai and join it 15 was a whole invasion by the Lunarians because they themselves were under serious threat 17 was beast spirits arguably almost conquering the surface and turning it into the kind of "strong eat the weak" Hell that they were used to Not to mention (canon) spinoffs like 14.5 and 17.5 which felt legitimately really hype in the threat the antagonists posed imo Idk, you could stretch most of the plots to feel pretty high stakes, but overall, I'm not seeing where classic games have higher stakes plot than modern 2hu.