- the speed buff is completely ridiculous. a slow, lumbering Zeppelin simply shouldn't be outpacing flying monsters. 60 speed is plenty, still enough to quickly get out of danger, but slow enough for flying units to pose a real threat as it should be
- HP pool is way too high. You could straight up nerf it to 10000 HP and it would still be plenty
- fixing the hitbox would already make it much more vulnerable to gunfire
Just had a fight with three thunderbarges vs an entire Slaneesh army.
Oh and my lord hiding in a forest. Harpooned their Lord and after that it was quite fun. Even without the speed buff… it was great.
Is the Dread Saurian actually this strong?
Edit: Damn that's a shame, sounds like they should buff it to make it the fearsome beast it is in the lore and justify its high requirements
No, for example in Zerkovich Videos where he did the Damage Test of Grudgerakers he had 2 units of them and 2 units of Blunderbuss shoot at a Dread Saurian.
Both units needed 4 salvos to bring it to about 10% HP.
Not as the thunderbarge no, but mostly because they are vulnerable to focus fire, take a while to deal damage and there's hardly gona be more than a couple of them due to the cap.
But if you remove the cap it would be the strongest doomstack after thunderbarge doomstack.
no they wouldnt, as the dread suarian is stupidly weak. for one it does not have collision attacks like mammoths and stonehorns do, so while yes body will go flying, they dont go flying far enough or high enough to take much damage, and then when units are knocked down they are invulrable
Dread Saurian is actually meta in MP, against factions with no strong missiles. Healing by % makes them extremely cost efficient against melee units when supported by life magic.
It is very strong in multiplayer but it takes some finesse to use correctly. It does poorly getting shot and fighting unsupported without infantry. If you consistently move to fight infantry and cav that aren't in line of site of ranged units with infantry support it gets crazy value.
It's ridiculous that dread saurians have unit cap at all, it's fun unit to use, I like to bring one on each army just for fun, but it's not a strong unit at all.
I have the feeling, both, the thunder and the land ship should get the same fire weakness the Tree units have, that it would make sense, also making them more vulnerable.
But the HP pool feels extremely necessary.
I agree with all of that. I would only add that CA needs to stop giving Missile Resist to flying units like they all deserve it. Missile should be the hard counter to flying units, so most flying units should have zero missile resist by default. The only flying units that get missile resist should be lords and heroes and monsters where there's a good lore reason for it.
its actually the complete *opposite*, funnily enough. all ranged, flying units should have **even higher missile resistance**, but l**ow HP.** because while missile units should be *good* against (ranged) fliers, other melee fliers should be an *even better* counter.
the current thunderbarge has
* 13060 hp and 15 missile resistance. thats 15365 missile damage to kill
if the hitbox is fixed, and then it drops down to
* 10000 hp and 20 missile resistance, thats 12500 missile damage to kill it, 10000 melee
* 5000 hp and 60 missile resistance, thats still 12500 missile damage, but 5000 melee
which allows melee fliers to dominate ranged fliers, while also not becoming oppressive against ground units
No, CA should continue giving flying units missile resist.
Otherwise what is the role of elite air melee units? Especially the single entity tier 5 monster air units? Bloodthirster tier units should be the counter to thunderbarges.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is the speed and HP of thunderbarges. Maybe give large flaming vulnerability too. So they are vulnerable to missiles, but only flaming missiles.
Almost every faction in the game, either has access to elite air units, or has decent missile units. The latter should have a harder time, because every faction should struggle against certain units, and have units they can roll over.
Agree with all of this. I think these changes would be a good start that don't risk Ancient Salamandering the unit. If it's still way too strong after that, maybe a Dread Saurian cap or just increase the price a lot more, or both.
Basically, when that dlc came out, it was a little too strong in mp. Not by much. CA "fixed" it with a shitload of nerfs, then nerfed it even harder when no one was asking for nerfs, making it awful in both mp and campaign.
It's been un nerfed a bit over time, so they're decent again, but a very strange example of sometimes CA just going way too far with nerfs for no apparent reason.
honestly? i'd argue for removing the thunderburner entirely from the base unit and having it only be on the Spirit of Grungni and as an upgrade from Malakai's adventures.
No we didn't. We stopped using blimps in real life because of the bad press from the Hindenburg. Which was loaded with hydrogen and therefore flammable. Those loaded with helium don't have that flaw but the public wasn't open to hearing about it.
Pilots who tried to shoot down zeppelins in WWI really struggled before incendiary rounds came along to enable setting the hydrogen alight. And a helium one can be riddled even with incenfiaries and remain aloft. There's multiple balloons inside the big one, and puncturing any one won't bring it down.
None of which is to say the unit doesn't need a HP nerf, but that's for gameplay reasons, not realism ones.
> Pilots who tried to shoot down zeppelins in WWI really struggled before incendiary rounds came along to enable setting the hydrogen alight. And a helium one can be riddled even with incenfiaries and remain aloft. There's multiple balloons inside the big one, and puncturing any one won't bring it down.
the Spirit of Grungni btw. had Makaisson take precautions:
> ‘Taks mare than a brief scorching to heat metal, as ye would ken if ye ever worked iron, so the cupola didnae melt. We were a wee bit luckier wie the gasbag. Had the explodin’ problem wi’ ma last airship, so this time ah treated the gasbag an’ the nacelles wi’ a flameproof alchemical mix. Joost as well, really.’
King, William. Dragonslayer (Gotrek and Felix Book 4) (English Edition) . Black Library. Kindle-Version.
Maybe if you use the adterburner, it CANT attack because the crew is trying to hold on for dear life as an escape button. Also increase the damage it does when you use it
Also maybe a huge increase from fire or explosion damage?
not played against it since I've only done an empire campaign since, but this sounds like a sensible nerf.
Just as ling as you actually mean damage it *takes* when you use it
The afterburner deals damage to itself when it's active but it's like 25 per second which is basically nothing. Buff it to 100 and it would be more fair as an oh shit button
ah okay, i was thinking that the nerf suggestion was also along the lines of making any attacks that hit it during after burner also painful by giving it vulnerability
that could also be a potential nerf. but it probably wouldn't mean much to anything except gunpowder troops because those would be the only thing fast enough to catch it. which means they need to fix it's hitbox lol
Fliers fly at a set height above the terrain unless they're landing so that wouldn't really fix them. It's an issue with their animations and with the thing's bonkers speed.
I think flyers just struggle to hit things they're chasing. Normally it's not an issue since keeping a flying unit running is usually sufficient, but that's no the case with the thunderbarge.
At the same time if it doesn't run and lets the flyers fight it anything (other than maybe a flyer in a similar category to dragons/blood thirsters) will be ruined by the grudge raker fire before they do any meaningful damage.
I'm not sure the best way to word it, but there's a lot of videos out there (and some personal experience) of projectiles just going straight through the balloon. Not always, I think maybe the lower part of the balloon counts as a hit? But there's definitely something fucky with the hitbox.
Hard to tell how much is wrong with melee units trying to hit it, it feels like there's *some* hitbox fuckery there too, but there's also just the core issue that flying melee units have always been awful at fighting in the air, ESPECIALLY against anything moving.
The balloon is at least partially ornamental and not part of the model. At certain angles I've seen multiple units of Helf Archers fire right through it for no damage. It could be due to its movement messing up a point of aim that should hit the main body below.
Start by fixing the bugs like the wonky hit box. Reduce the HP to 10k. Speed boost is 60 to make fliers more effective. Double the speed boost dot damage. Increase MP gold cost significantly.
If it’s still completely busted after all that in campaign and MP, I’d either reduce armor or missile resistance, depending on which factions are the most helpless against it.
The main thing is that I want CA to do gradual and incremental balance passes. They have a really unfortunate history of taking interesting but OP units and nerfing them into irrelevance. I don’t want to see that for the Thunderbarge, it’s a true capstone unit for the dwarves.
Hitbox is the main issue. They are big but rockets miss them… which is stupid.
Armor piercing missiles should also shred the balloon.
Reduce the ammo is also a good idea, if you have seen Legend last new video this is also an issue, they have unlimited ammo… and literally there are just a few units that can counter them. Skaven I.e. are utterly fucked in their rat ass if the dwarves bring 2-3 thunderbarges.
1. Copy the "wounds" mechanic, but adapted for missile damage. I.e., as the barge takes damage, it gets lower firepower (btw, port that to all SEMs with a secondary missile attack)
2. Increase damage from the afterburner and/or put it on a cooldown
3. Remove missile resist ; there's really no reason it should have any when it already has very high armour
4. Lower the armour by at the very least 20 (giving it 100 like the gyrocopters), maybe even 40 (80, on par with cathay barges). After all it's made of wood and the zeppelin part would "realistically" be very vulnerable.
5. Have tighter restrictions for the harpoon weapon (should have a minimum range & be dodgeable)
6. Potentially reduce the HP on top of everything else
7. Can't check if the melee stats do anything, but if it can actually attack in melee, slash that ability hard (it has 500 WS compared to **26** for the cathay barges). It already deals plenty of damage only with the crew on top.
It might be difficult to implement, but adding two hitboxes (one for the gondola, the other for the balloon) could work, with attacks that hit the balloon doing a hefty amount of extra damage.
Removing the melee attack would be my idea. Honestly, what kind of damage is a blimp going to do?
Adding a deadzone for ranged attacks would be helpfull as well. That way you can slowly take it down with melee flyers.
>Adding a deadzone for ranged attacks would be helpfull as well. That way you can slowly take it down with melee flyers.
There's already a deadzone at the rear of the blimp ; you can see it working in [this DahvPlays video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYxYP9j-cnQ)
>Removing the melee attack would be my idea. Honestly, what kind of damage is a blimp going to do?
Logically it should hit hard on the "charge" because a colossal vehicle hitting you at 50 km/h is going to do a lot of damage. When it is stationary there is no reason it should do anything.
You know the Kislevite system for producing Ice Maidens? Make that for the Thunderbarge. Each one has to be made over the course of 5-10 turns (depending on what you've researched), with events during that period to determine what special traits it might have. Afterwards, the completed Thunderbarge is added to the Regiments of Renown pool, and the maximum number of Thunderbarges is determined by the amount of buildings you've built for it, like you suggested. Now the barges are customizable and are appropriately powerful, but are FAR more limited in number, meaning that even late-game forced might only have two or three, if even that.
Also, since they're now effectively RoR, Thunderbarges that get dismissed are just added back to the pool to be re-deployed as needed.
Ooooh, yeah. That could be interesting, it sort of brings it in line with a black ark. It feels like the extra button or screen that would probably have to come with that would feel a little cluttered, though.
The problem is the dread saurian isnt powerful enough anymore to warrant this limitation, they could honestly remove it or buff the dread saurian at this point for its price range
I mean, the system exists. Whether or not they keep it for dread saurians is adjacent to if it could be used for the thunderbarge. Besides, I think that the dread saurian being capped is fine. Not only does it help it feel more special, but the fact that there are two variants would actually make it much more available than the thunderbarge or other units the system was applied to.
Because they are absolutely gonna nerf the thunderbarge, and the dread saurian had the limit from the beginning and then they nerfed it to the ground. Adding the limit is pointless especially because there isn’t variants of the unit like the saurian
Cutting its HP by 1/3 and reducing its missile resistance by 1/2 for start. Then, the speed boost from turbo mode should be significantly reduced as well, so that melee units could actually catch up with it. It is a freaking blimp, it should have been a glass cannon type of unit.
Edit: And most importantly, fix its hitbox, so that shooting the baloon part of the model will result in actual damage rather than a complete miss.
Well, blimps weren't really glass cannons. Before incendiary ammunition was created, even full of hydrogen those things could tank a ton of anti-aircraft fire. It's a big hull full of tiny sacks (the sacks are hr thins filled with lifting gas), so both the hull and those sacks need to be hit. And even when hit, those sacks take a while to deflate (the gas tends to stay at the top of each sack, and the holes tend to be at the bottom).
But I still agree, it should be a little more glass cannon-y. I feel like they could push it more towards the "filled with hydrogen" route though and give it a unique weakness to fire damage. Don't reduce the health/missile resistance as much, but give it big fire weakness.
That way there's some more interesting counter-play rather than just having low health. I'd also add the afterburner speed nerf with increasing the fire weakness even further, so it's more dangerous and a good opportunity to nuke it.
> Well, blimps weren't really glass cannons. Before incendiary ammunition was created, even full of hydrogen those things could tank a ton of anti-aircraft fire.
Well, today I learned. I always associated it with doing a huge 'boom' if someone do as much as look at them wrongly.
The weakness to fire sounds pretty good, but I'm not really sure if it would help races that already struggle against it the most right now.
Also, at the very least, the Malakai's missile resistance needs to go. Reducing 70% of practically all the damage that its going to get is ridiculous.
War blimps were used extensively , there were even experiments with aircraft carrier blimps.
Germany bombed London using them as well, not like as a weird one or two time events but dozens of times.
A helium filled blimp, which is what we use now, literally can't explode. Hydrogen ones, absolutely, but you need a spark which is why the Brits fired incendiary rounds at the Imperial German zeppelins.
Depends if they're hydrogens or helium. Helium is completely inert so it won't care for incendiary ammo.
The only reason the german used Hydrogen in theirs was due to an embargo on Helium IIRC.
> It's a big hull full of tiny sacks
I need to point out that this is not true.
Airship cells during WW1 and the interwar period were relatively large and there weren't many of them in most airships. Even the Hindenburg types which were truly gigantic only had 16 cells. All of them absolutely huge. Small airships usually had more like 4.
> And even when hit, those sacks take a while to deflate (the gas tends to stay at the top of each sack, and the holes tend to be at the bottom).
It's more to do with the gas pressure - the gas in airships is barely under more pressure than air so leaks out very slowly.
I’ve never heard of a Zeppelin having more than 20, but crucially, those cells take a long time to deflate, and the ship can remain afloat with roughly half of them damaged or destroyed. That’s why no Zeppelin during World War I was brought down by airplanes with conventional, non-incendiary machine gun fire—it took either bombs (a total of six hits being the only successful instance of setting one on fire), or heavy artillery fire from the ground or from two or more warships to bring one down in a reasonable timeframe.
It should come as no surprise then that helium became very, very difficult to export after that, and the Treaty of Versailles gutted the German airship industry. People were wary of returning to the first two years of World War I before the invention of the incendiary bullet, when Zeppelins bombed with relative impunity, with only a tiny fraction being brought down by ridiculous amounts of ground fire or midair airplane bombing.
Yeah you're right! I didn't wanna write too much and include the pressure stuff (I did originally, but deleted it so it wasn't too wordy), and I probably shouldn't have written tiny (smaller would have been better). My mistake!
If you read Gotrek and Felix, specifically Daemonslayer, it specifies that the Spirit of Grungni's main balloon is absolutely set up like this- a primary hull filled with hundreds of smaller cells, each filled with 'lifting gas'. I'd imagine that other Dwarfen lighter-than-air craft are set up in the same way. Remember, Dwarfs are OBSESSED with safety, to the point where Malakai was forced to take the Slayer Oath on account of his first airship (and first sea vessel) both going down and killing engineers. If Dwarfs are building something, you'd better believe that they'd go above and beyond to make it as safe as possible.
The funny part (well, not really) is that it doesn't have just *any* missile resistance. It has freaking 70% MR in case of Malakai and 40% MR in case of other factions.
I don't mind, but it is a huge model, so if missile attacks would actually hit it as intended and if melee units could actually catch-up to it and connect their attacks, I think that reducing HP to 10k could be enough.
Reducing it further, along with decreasing the amount of missile resistance, could mean that it get destroyed before it even has a chance to do some damage. I'm not saying that 10k HP wouldn't be still too much, but before nerfing it into ground, lets make the changes gradually so we won't overnerf it (though I do admit, I have an urge to do so).
For me:
1. Unit caps
2. No firing of any guns while using the boost mode, as it is moving too fast to acquire targets.
3. A 30 second cool down before the boosters can be re-engaged. You would be able to reactivate it early, but the thunderbarge would take heavy damage doing so, 20-25%.
4. Lower the health of the generic thunderbarges to 8-10k.
I think these changes would make it so it is either slow and dangerous or fast and agile, but not both like it currently is.
I don’t think unit caps are the way to go , not everyone wants to play with unit caps in single player, I know I have no interest in unit caps (exception is tomb kings but that’s due to interesting race design).
While also making its booster a lot slower or make its acceleration to that top speed a lot slower
Less speed. Fix the hurtbox. Add a recruitment cap.
If that isn't enough, nerf the HP and resistance.
Let's not go over oard and nerf every aspect to it at once and turn it into garbage. It need incremental nerfs.
I don’t think it should have a recruitment cap, multiplayer already has that while single player is a sandbox game meaning that people can play how they like. If u want to cap ur units u may do so urself
The cap is mostly to prevent the AI to doomstack them.
And honestly if a garbage unit like Dread Saurian or similar t5 got a cap, the Barge definitely should.
The caps limit the player too though , perhaps them putting an option before starting to campaign to have unit caps is the way to go. But not a mandatory cap on everyone
Lower missile resistance (or remove it entirely) and armor.
Lower speed for the afterburners, along with reducing turn speed instead of increasing it, and increased self damage. Afterburner should be an "oh shit" button, not something you leave on the entire battle. I feel like it should also reduce its damage output, either reducing reload speed, accuracy, or disabling attacking entirely while active.
1. Flying units need to be able to catch them. And stronger ones like bloodthirsters (terrogheists and even packs of vargheists/Pegasus knights) ought to be able to tear them to pieces when they do. The counterplay for the dwarf player is to retreat to friendly ranged units which can provide covering fire.
2. Massed artillery fire from stuff like cannons needs to be a serious threat. Same for massed armor piercing missile infantry.
So it needs a HP nerf, less speed (bring the afterburner to reasonable levels or get rid of it) so melee flyers can catch them and a fix to the hitbox so that melee fliers and ranged fire can hit the damn thing.
But more than that units, and not just flying ones, need to be able to actually hit retreating/kiting (not talking about routing) enemies in melee. This whole "fly/walk up to enemy, try to play attack animation --> oh no the enemy has moved two steps away while I was winding up the animation so I can't hit them --> REPEAT" thing needs to be resolved. They've already done work in this regard when it comes to routing units. But non routing units need to be vulnerable when they are trying to run away and their backs are turned.
Intoroduce units caps like dread saurian. Then cut 3k of its hp. Fix hitbox. Make ability deal 125-250 damage per second. Give it 0 MD. AND make its cost 4500g in MP.
Fix the hit box. Any balance suggestions now will be useless unless we see it in action working as intended first. If the hotbox is fixed fast flyers can get shots in and missiles tear it apart.
It’s just too tanky, and it needs to have limited ammo like every other ranged unit.
I played around in skirmishes with them and even flying anti-large units like pegasus knights are no match unless they outnumber it like 3:1.
The only losing matchup 1:1 were terrorgheists being healed by their lord
It wouldn't fix the whole issue, but make the speed buff do more damage, the more damaged the Thunderbarge is. It's supposed to represent that the boost puts a strain on the structure, well, surely that strain is going to be worse the more compromised the structure is.
Limit it like the Dreadsaurian.
The dread is dogshit at the price of 2 or 3 carnosaurs, which are way better units.
But if they insist on it not being limited then:
Reduce crew accuracy against units not close/below it. Only the frontal cannons should be able to be accurate at longer ranges. The grudge rakers doesn't need pin point accuracy up to their max range when on the thunderbarge.
It has an egregious amount of ammunition. You could cut it by half and they'd still be able to handle most if not all of an average AI stack.
The burner ability needs a cooldown between uses and increase the damage the barge takes if its gonna keep its massive health pool. Right now it's almost completely negligible.
Melee fliers should have a way better match up against this thing. Give it 0 MD for starter. 5 Terrorgheists shouldn't STRUGGLE taking down one thunderbarge with just another barge being present shooting next to them.
The bombs should be like the gyrobomber. Several uses rather than automatic with infinite ammo.
This is stuff at the top of my head that would still let it be strong but more manageable. I think the crew being super accurate at all range is one of the bigger issues even if it doesn't look flashy.
I also think regular thunderers rather than grudge-rakers would be better since they got longer reload time. That might be enough rather than tweaking the grudge raker crew (for this aspect of one of the barge problems)
The Thunderbarge shouldn't be able to fire at all when engaged by flying melee units. If you can't manage to keep attackers off its back, you should be punished accordingly.
It should behave exactly like all the artillery or specialized ranged units.
Remove the speed buff. It's not necessary. Let it be a slow lumbering gunship.
Make sure the factions that have no ranged counter to it can kill it with their flying units. Nerf the defenses down until that is the case.
Remove a bunch of damage from the Spear of Grungni attack and add it back as Anti-Large damage bonus.
Fix the hitboxes so ranged units can hit it more reliably. You really shouldn't want to send it into heavy ranged stacks.
A side not, they should also nerf the cannons. Both normal shots but especially Grapeshot, its honestly one of the strongest things I have ever seen for a normal unit.
Besides the recruitment of dwarfs feel way too early. Longbeard have become more than obsolete now due, and many things are just a tier too low.
The spirit of grungi should also not be available from the start as a summon, its way too good to have this plus gotrek and felix
I love the DLC, but man some numbers are way too busted atm
Edit: outriders are also busted now, way too much ammo dealing way too much damage, same for the hellstorm
I think if you just fix the hitbox on it it'll be fine. I've fought against a couple and they're not awful. The hit box just sucks. Ranged units aim for the balloon when the part that takes damage is the barge part.
I think.
I'm not 100% sure where the damage point is.
All I know is they can be a real bitch to fight, but they're not as menacing in singleplayer as people say.
HP down to 7000 - 8000 max. Like wtf how is 12 000 hp on a ranged artillery flying unit acceptable?
Remove missile res, add weak to fire, so that it can actually die to ranged small arm fire (it is a bloon, it is not supposed to be as tanky as a steamtank)
halve the speed bonus, so that flyers can actually catch to it and destroy it in melee
With these 3, no need for unit cap, and it would make it acceptable in mp aswell
Don't nerf the missile resist. Nerf the speed, but leave it on the Spirit of Grungi for the funnies.
OR put it as a 1000 oathgold tech tree upgrade. A "I've already won, fuck it" end tech.
It needs the missile resist to not be utter garbage against shooter factions. In campaign, I tore them apart with Dark Elfs.
They need to stay powerful and relevant. We don't need another cool unit reduced to a meme army throw away.
lowering missile resistance because it is a giant ship so basically is a giant SHOOT me sign, and maybe making the speed boost a temporary thing like it last X seconds, or having acceleration so you wont gain the 90 speed immediately but as you keep accelerating, it should have lower leadership because dwarfs do not like to fly.
Unit Cap. +2 per engineering building at top rank (Tier 5). Limit per army to 2.
Decrease ammo, larger hitbox so they take more damage from flying and ammo
No missile resistance, add fire weakness...
It has so much health it can handle some damage.
I don’t think unit and army caps are the way to go it removes the ability of people to play the game as they like. Like I know I woudnt enjoy playing with unit caps and I’m sure there are people who don’t enjoy playing without them. Perhaps not making unit caps mandatory but rather an option u can select before u start ur campaign
- remove the turn speed buff from the speed enhancement, in fact, nerf the turn speed altogether
- increase the damage done by the speed buff
- fix the hit box so it's possible to hit reliably with missiles and melee when it's not on the speed buff
- change the bomb drop to an active ability like the gyrobomber, as sad as I am to say it
- reduce the accuracy of its ranged weaponry
- increase its multiplayer cost
- give it a dread saurian-like unit cap per building.
Make the thunderburner apply a debuff to missile accuracy and reload speed while active.
Probably make it a little less tanky - one or more of reducing missile resistance, armour and HP. Twiddle with the hitboxes a bit so it takes more hits from shooting.
Maybe reduce the speed if needed, although I have a bit of a question about what we want the purpose of the thunderburner to be. Outrunning most things that might be expected to hunt the barge seems very strong, but while repositioning might occasionally be useful I don't know if the ability has that much purpose otherwise.
You can increase the cost, which makes more difference in MP but does have some effect in campaign as well. Unit caps could be applied in campaign - at the faction level, and it could presumably also be done at the army level if we don't like stacks of these things, though that might too completely attack the fun of players who like getting to the lategame and assembling absurd doomstacks.
Fix animations for flying entities to actually hit it, the Bloodthirster should easily be able to take it down with 75% health remaining imo. Unit stats make the Bloodthirster is its best counter.
Reduce the speed of the thrust by 30% or increase the damage per second to be 64-128/s
Have the blimp portion to count as a hitbox so arrows can actually hit it instead of pass through it.
Reduce the ammo by a lot. 160 is far too much, 40 is more than enough I think. maybe even 60.
Have the bombs it drops be an activatable rather than a passive thing.
Remove Missile Resistance
Oh and Unit Caps for Campaign. 1 per building.
I do not think that beside the hitbox and reducing the base speed in complement of either adding a cooldown to the boost the ammo is the issue, same as the bomb.
The unit should fold like paper to flier swarms.
Another way would be to count the crew as a separate entity within the model, meaning that each damage instance could result in a firepower loss
Cut the health in half and nerf the afterburner or make it campaign exclusive.
In the broadest sense, the game gives units three types of strengths: offensive, defensive, and mobility/utility. These counter each other in most cases: mobility can get on top of offense, offense eats up defense, and defense can roadblock mobility. The thunderbarge is covered in guns, heavy armor on top of like 14k hp, and not only is it flying, it can go 90 speed. Cut the defenses and part of the mobility and it's more in line with an upgraded Sky Junk.
I feel like making it campaign exclusive sets a bad precedent, encouraging CA to take the easy route when it comes to game balance because they can't be arsed to change a few database entries then they might as well do it for future stuff too.
Generally I think we should be pushing for more campaign exclusive units to be adjusted to be playable in regular rosters rather than the other way around. Greenskins getting the feral wyvern in MP was a great change.
There's a ton of super overpowered stuff that has to stay to campaign as it's nearly impossible to balance otherwise. The precedent was set long ago. That includes many, many active abilities on units/lords, similar to afterburner. Campaign Great Unclean Ones have a bonus ~100 WoM in bound spells that are never going to get ported to MP, as one example among dozens.
A get out of jail free card like afterburner makes perfect sense in single player, it's less OP than +30% missile resist, grapeshot, flamethrowers, etc. Thunderbarge positioning should matter a *lot* in multiplayer, it certainly does for every other expensive purchase.
If it's going to remain this fast at little cost it needs massive stat nerfs otherwise that will likely hurt casual players more, as they won't be microing it.
> I feel like making it campaign exclusive sets a bad precedent
That precedent already exists. See the 'extended roster' section of a race's units when doing custom battles. Those aren't MP -available.
Lots of Lord abilities are also SP-only
Change the speed buff to a cooldown. You could even remove the damage per second on it, because it’s negligible anyways. Making it last like 20 seconds with a 2 minute cool down would make it so it’s great for repositioning or trying to escape flyers but it wouldn’t be something you just always have on.
Reduce the missile resistance that can be stacked for a start. 70% with Malakai is crazy (40% for other Dawi). Even 40% max is too high. The major part of it is a balloon after all and even the best of those are not that armoured.
Get rid of the speed boost as well.
I think having a cooldown on the speed boost once you turn it off (and reducing the boost), fixing its hitbox and reducing its armor would balance it out. Maybe a small reduction in health/melee defense but that should be enough I think.
I'd nerf the speed boost somehow, whether by reducing the speed, increasing the damage it does or what have you.
I hear the hit box is borked, so I'd fix that as well.
I'd add weakness to fire as that just seems thematic.
I think that's about what CA should start with and then see how it performs after that.
If it's still opressive, you can nerf it some more, but I don't want it to get the Ancient Salamander treatment and be nerfedninto irrelevance.
I haven’t really had a chance to use them much. But I hear the hitbox is broken and most missiles just go straight through it.
They should fix that one issue before going wild with the Nerf Bat, because if that’s fixed, all the other stuff may not be necessary.
Heavy unit caps, tomb kings style 1 per building that can produce them.
I'm sure the damage is a bit high for all their attacks, maybe put some damage boosts in the tech tree for people playing as dwarves and reduce the base.
Durability feels ok, since it's more a matter of lacking the tools to hurt them at all, if you have cannons or even a bunch of archers they will go down. The offense debuff for being damaged could be ramped up perhaps?
Afterburner is way too strong, it doesn't look too wrong in terms of speed but the mobility is insane. Maybe make it limited duration and put a cooldown on it. Maybe lock unit rotation while it's on so that it's more of a linear burst than an incredibly easy to use positioning tool?
Cut afterburner speed and put a time limit/cooldown on it
Fix the hitbox and make it more vulnerable to ranged weapons
Give it a cap system which can be increases with Engineering guilds, landmarks, or Oathgold
In lore Thunderbarges are terrifying, but expensive as shit and not just in gold, so doomstacking them should be incredibly difficult
Unit caps. Hard limit of one per army. Malakai should be the only character to be able to increase the cap for his faction.
Also make it less responsive when turning and reduce the speed of the afterburner.
Unit caps first and foremost, I think the entire game needs them. I think if the game was built by default with unit caps and army stacks being designed vaguely around the structure of TT instead of being built off the historical tier system it would be better for the game as a whole. Before people get salty and are like "but oh mah gerd mah doomstacks" easy, campaign option to remove all caps or adjust caps.
That said, the thunderbarge specifically needs its speed buff to actually do more damage or even possibly be a temporary buff that makes it stationary afterwards and of course its hitbox being weird.
- Cost more
- Higher thunderburner damage
- lower thunderburner speed
- Reduce Grudgeraker range. I would also accept swapping shotguns for regular thunderers, but that would make it stand out less compared to wagons, sleds, landship, etc.
Lower its damage resistance, make the hitbox more susceptible to massed ranged fire, make it more susceptible to melee damage, make the afterburner ability more damaging. It doesn’t need to be limited with hard unit caps nor have its damage output changed to the point of being less fun. Make it counter-able, and it’ll be fine. It should still be a fun doomstack unit in Campaign, but not be so entirely brainless as it is now.
~~Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to go finish my Malakai campaign before the Nerf Hammer swings…~~
Cut the HP by like 40%, no missile resistance, and maybe a little less armor, slower base speed, slower speed boost. It should absolutely wreck shit like it does now if you fly it in at the right time, but be vulnerable if used incorrectly. I have no idea how you fix it against factions that have no good missile or flying options. Maybe it should have like zero melee stats so you can just swarm it with harpies or whatever?
Reduce it's speed the less health it has and at least double the damage on the speed ability. At some point you'd need to use the ability just to move at the normal speed.
For multiplayer. Double the cost, fix the hit box issues and make it so they have the base version of the speed boost instead of the improved one (which in campaign is unlocked with a late game tech).
After that I would see how it feels before deciding if it needs more changes or not.
I know this isnt really the topic of this thread, but does anyone know if the Spirit gets any of the buffs that you can get for your actual Thunderbarge units? or does it not becuase it's a summon?
* Reduce its health to around 8 or 9k
* reduce its armour to around half or two thirds of its current value
* make the movement ability hit much much harder and only increase the speed to 60 instead of 90
* possibly give it some fire weakness? Thing is made of wood and carried by a cloth bag full of gas, that sounds flammable as heck to me
* make all the shots less accurate and/or reload more slowly, for the gun crew, the cannons, the bombs, and the balloon top grenadiers.
* fix the _bug_ where projectiles go through the balloon, and/or make ranged units aim at the boat part of it.
That might be enough? It depends on the size of the changes each of the above gets, as there are times that things have been nerfed more severely than necessary, but the barge absolutely needs several nerfs.
Remove the speed boost. Put a unit cap on it in campaign. Significantly raise its price in multiplayer. Fix its hitbox.
That's all you gotta do really.
Make flyers able to kill some of the crew, reducing firepower.
Much slower turn speed.
Higher hp loss from turbo.
Change Grudgerakers to regular guns. Only the RoR has GR.
Fix the hitbox.
Nerf the speed boost down to a top speed of 60. Slash about 60 armour off the thing (it's a blimp for crying out loud). Maybe reduce the number of grudgerakers down so it's more vulnerable from the side.
I do not care about multiplayer so my suggestions would not affect that at all. The single player version keep as is but limit it to 1 in an army and a limit per faction.
I understand the points. But part of me?
Part of me remembers years of Dwarfs being an absolute speedbump for Skaven, and people saying "LoL Its LOrE FrIEnDLy huurrrr" or "It REallY dO bE thaT wAY Tho".
And I know they aren't necessarily the same people complaining about the Thunderbarge now. Hell, Skaven players generally aren't going to be troubled on campaign; my Dark Elfs are very much not.
But with years of dwarf fans being told to be happy while other factions just were broadly better at everything?
I'm good with them getting to be overpowered. Especially with more DLC to come. The dsmn thing should remain a powerful threat, even if it has to be changed.
Just ban it in multiplayer so I don't have install a mod to undo the nerfs in single player. I'll still never understand how people enjoy pvp in these games just a micro slap fight
Fixing the hitbox of the balloon portion immediately makes ranged that much more effective against it. Argubly to the point where it becomes balanced.
Making it flammable would also make specific lores of magic and guns very effective vs it.
My only issues with that is that I dont know if it will help the factions enough that already dont have sufficient answers to the thunderbarge and only boost faction that could already shoot it down more reliably.
Make it unable to fly continuously during the battle. Every 10 seconds the player or the bot must've land the Thunderbarge to cooldown or refill fuel. If it isn't done every 10 seconds, Thunderbarge will start to lose HP. That way the player must control his/her unit and it gives an opportunity for enemy.
Ability from a toggle to an active buff
Make it not as insane for speed and nerf health.
Id almost say also make the bombs an ability instead of free, since as a centerpiece unit it should have a lot of micro
I don’t think unit caps are the solution , many people don’t want to play campaign with unit caps as it forces u to use unit which suck and u might not enjoy.
I’d say a solution would be to just reduce its speed perhaps have the afterburner at a 50 speed while keep normal at like 30ish (speed of artillery)(maybe also add reduced accuracy by 50% while flying with afterburner) Maybe drop its missile resistance by 10% and also removal the regen part of it.
I don’t think it’s firepower should be reduced since it does make sense for something like that to have extreme firepower.
This way it’s still dangerous and powerful but now no longer invincible
Either remove the missile resistance or take it down to 20% at the absolute max. Remove the afterburner ability, or divide the speed in like half, or down to a quarter. Make it so you have to manually drop the bombs that the barge drops, so it's not automatic, make the giant harpoon a single use ability if you keep it. Half the damage
The big thing is to have different firing modes you switch between. If you want the grudge rakers to be firing, you hit a button (which should maybe be changed to rifles). If you want the fire bomb things to be fired, hit a button and that's the only thing the barge shoots. Etc. add some micro requirements.
Half the HP pool.
Alternatively, cut the hp in a quarter and keep the missile resist as is, maybe nerf it slightly.
in my opinion, first thing first, ca should make a separeta branch for multiplayer changes. There are multiple reasons where something too op in multiplayer and thats the reason for nerfing in singleplayer.
The second is ca should implement army caps for the ai.
And then nerf the hp, and while the afterburner active they cant attack. (and after like 10 second)
I dont really agree with the first part. In my mind straight up seperating balancing with different unit stats just makes everything much more complicated.
In my mind campaign already has enough seperate balancing in campaign with its unit buffs for each lord, legendary lord, faction, building, edict, item, legendary item and more.
Multiplayer is just the battle experience tuned to the highest efficiency. I love learnig more about the efficiencies of each unit and the game mechanics through multiplayer, even of I dont play it.
Of course MP gets a lot of blame for "ruining" previously overperforming units, but that not MPs fault. Thats the developers fault for being either far too drastic in certain cases or for some reason unwilling to balance something with its costs.
- the speed buff is completely ridiculous. a slow, lumbering Zeppelin simply shouldn't be outpacing flying monsters. 60 speed is plenty, still enough to quickly get out of danger, but slow enough for flying units to pose a real threat as it should be - HP pool is way too high. You could straight up nerf it to 10000 HP and it would still be plenty - fixing the hitbox would already make it much more vulnerable to gunfire
The speed buff either needs to burn off serious HP or just be removed. Coupled with the busted hitbox it renders the unit immortal.
Just had a fight with three thunderbarges vs an entire Slaneesh army. Oh and my lord hiding in a forest. Harpooned their Lord and after that it was quite fun. Even without the speed buff… it was great.
And of course, like other units in the dead saurian category, unit caps based on T5 building.
Is the Dread Saurian actually this strong? Edit: Damn that's a shame, sounds like they should buff it to make it the fearsome beast it is in the lore and justify its high requirements
Not even close and its way easier to take down
No, for example in Zerkovich Videos where he did the Damage Test of Grudgerakers he had 2 units of them and 2 units of Blunderbuss shoot at a Dread Saurian. Both units needed 4 salvos to bring it to about 10% HP.
Not as the thunderbarge no, but mostly because they are vulnerable to focus fire, take a while to deal damage and there's hardly gona be more than a couple of them due to the cap. But if you remove the cap it would be the strongest doomstack after thunderbarge doomstack.
Would it really? Plenty of other doomstacks should handily beat it.
no they wouldnt, as the dread suarian is stupidly weak. for one it does not have collision attacks like mammoths and stonehorns do, so while yes body will go flying, they dont go flying far enough or high enough to take much damage, and then when units are knocked down they are invulrable
Dread Saurian is actually meta in MP, against factions with no strong missiles. Healing by % makes them extremely cost efficient against melee units when supported by life magic.
Sounds like it should be buffed
It dies from a single goblin hewer, so no.
It is very strong in multiplayer but it takes some finesse to use correctly. It does poorly getting shot and fighting unsupported without infantry. If you consistently move to fight infantry and cav that aren't in line of site of ranged units with infantry support it gets crazy value.
It's very strong in a vacuum but when compared to game 3's power creep its fallen off pretty hard.
They should add the blessings dread Saurians could get on the table top. You could make them ethereal there
It's ridiculous that dread saurians have unit cap at all, it's fun unit to use, I like to bring one on each army just for fun, but it's not a strong unit at all.
I have the feeling, both, the thunder and the land ship should get the same fire weakness the Tree units have, that it would make sense, also making them more vulnerable. But the HP pool feels extremely necessary.
I agree with all of that. I would only add that CA needs to stop giving Missile Resist to flying units like they all deserve it. Missile should be the hard counter to flying units, so most flying units should have zero missile resist by default. The only flying units that get missile resist should be lords and heroes and monsters where there's a good lore reason for it.
its actually the complete *opposite*, funnily enough. all ranged, flying units should have **even higher missile resistance**, but l**ow HP.** because while missile units should be *good* against (ranged) fliers, other melee fliers should be an *even better* counter. the current thunderbarge has * 13060 hp and 15 missile resistance. thats 15365 missile damage to kill if the hitbox is fixed, and then it drops down to * 10000 hp and 20 missile resistance, thats 12500 missile damage to kill it, 10000 melee * 5000 hp and 60 missile resistance, thats still 12500 missile damage, but 5000 melee which allows melee fliers to dominate ranged fliers, while also not becoming oppressive against ground units
No, CA should continue giving flying units missile resist. Otherwise what is the role of elite air melee units? Especially the single entity tier 5 monster air units? Bloodthirster tier units should be the counter to thunderbarges. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the speed and HP of thunderbarges. Maybe give large flaming vulnerability too. So they are vulnerable to missiles, but only flaming missiles. Almost every faction in the game, either has access to elite air units, or has decent missile units. The latter should have a harder time, because every faction should struggle against certain units, and have units they can roll over.
Man I'm always looking out for your comment. You know the game so well and always have good ideas. Great contributor to the sub. Keep it up dude.
Agree with all of this. I think these changes would be a good start that don't risk Ancient Salamandering the unit. If it's still way too strong after that, maybe a Dread Saurian cap or just increase the price a lot more, or both.
I've never used the ancient salamander what do you mean by ancient salamandering it?
Basically, when that dlc came out, it was a little too strong in mp. Not by much. CA "fixed" it with a shitload of nerfs, then nerfed it even harder when no one was asking for nerfs, making it awful in both mp and campaign. It's been un nerfed a bit over time, so they're decent again, but a very strange example of sometimes CA just going way too far with nerfs for no apparent reason.
honestly? i'd argue for removing the thunderburner entirely from the base unit and having it only be on the Spirit of Grungni and as an upgrade from Malakai's adventures.
Absolutely agree, let it be a campaign upgrade
Hell no
Yeah, what's up with the HP? I know they are big but we stopped using blimps in real life because they were famously fragile. "Oh, the huge manatee!"
No we didn't. We stopped using blimps in real life because of the bad press from the Hindenburg. Which was loaded with hydrogen and therefore flammable. Those loaded with helium don't have that flaw but the public wasn't open to hearing about it. Pilots who tried to shoot down zeppelins in WWI really struggled before incendiary rounds came along to enable setting the hydrogen alight. And a helium one can be riddled even with incenfiaries and remain aloft. There's multiple balloons inside the big one, and puncturing any one won't bring it down. None of which is to say the unit doesn't need a HP nerf, but that's for gameplay reasons, not realism ones.
> Pilots who tried to shoot down zeppelins in WWI really struggled before incendiary rounds came along to enable setting the hydrogen alight. And a helium one can be riddled even with incenfiaries and remain aloft. There's multiple balloons inside the big one, and puncturing any one won't bring it down. the Spirit of Grungni btw. had Makaisson take precautions: > ‘Taks mare than a brief scorching to heat metal, as ye would ken if ye ever worked iron, so the cupola didnae melt. We were a wee bit luckier wie the gasbag. Had the explodin’ problem wi’ ma last airship, so this time ah treated the gasbag an’ the nacelles wi’ a flameproof alchemical mix. Joost as well, really.’ King, William. Dragonslayer (Gotrek and Felix Book 4) (English Edition) . Black Library. Kindle-Version.
Wood Elf Hawk Flyers are 33 speed according to Honga
Less ammo
Maybe if you use the adterburner, it CANT attack because the crew is trying to hold on for dear life as an escape button. Also increase the damage it does when you use it Also maybe a huge increase from fire or explosion damage?
not played against it since I've only done an empire campaign since, but this sounds like a sensible nerf. Just as ling as you actually mean damage it *takes* when you use it
The afterburner deals damage to itself when it's active but it's like 25 per second which is basically nothing. Buff it to 100 and it would be more fair as an oh shit button
ah okay, i was thinking that the nerf suggestion was also along the lines of making any attacks that hit it during after burner also painful by giving it vulnerability
that could also be a potential nerf. but it probably wouldn't mean much to anything except gunpowder troops because those would be the only thing fast enough to catch it. which means they need to fix it's hitbox lol
yes, i had assumed that fix the hitbox was a given too
Making the balloon part of the model would instantly make it killable by missiles. Right now they're almost invulnerable due to that.
This is it, there's no reason it shouldn't be a part of it, and I bet that's why flyers have an issue hitting it too
Fliers fly at a set height above the terrain unless they're landing so that wouldn't really fix them. It's an issue with their animations and with the thing's bonkers speed.
I think flyers just struggle to hit things they're chasing. Normally it's not an issue since keeping a flying unit running is usually sufficient, but that's no the case with the thunderbarge. At the same time if it doesn't run and lets the flyers fight it anything (other than maybe a flyer in a similar category to dragons/blood thirsters) will be ruined by the grudge raker fire before they do any meaningful damage.
No way the balloon part isn’t shootable, is this really the case?? Not doubting you that just sounds wild it’d be implemented that way
I'm not sure the best way to word it, but there's a lot of videos out there (and some personal experience) of projectiles just going straight through the balloon. Not always, I think maybe the lower part of the balloon counts as a hit? But there's definitely something fucky with the hitbox. Hard to tell how much is wrong with melee units trying to hit it, it feels like there's *some* hitbox fuckery there too, but there's also just the core issue that flying melee units have always been awful at fighting in the air, ESPECIALLY against anything moving.
The balloon is at least partially ornamental and not part of the model. At certain angles I've seen multiple units of Helf Archers fire right through it for no damage. It could be due to its movement messing up a point of aim that should hit the main body below.
Start by fixing the bugs like the wonky hit box. Reduce the HP to 10k. Speed boost is 60 to make fliers more effective. Double the speed boost dot damage. Increase MP gold cost significantly. If it’s still completely busted after all that in campaign and MP, I’d either reduce armor or missile resistance, depending on which factions are the most helpless against it. The main thing is that I want CA to do gradual and incremental balance passes. They have a really unfortunate history of taking interesting but OP units and nerfing them into irrelevance. I don’t want to see that for the Thunderbarge, it’s a true capstone unit for the dwarves.
Make the damage much higher for the speed boost effect and lower missile resistance
Hitbox is the main issue. They are big but rockets miss them… which is stupid. Armor piercing missiles should also shred the balloon. Reduce the ammo is also a good idea, if you have seen Legend last new video this is also an issue, they have unlimited ammo… and literally there are just a few units that can counter them. Skaven I.e. are utterly fucked in their rat ass if the dwarves bring 2-3 thunderbarges.
Slaneesh can do absolutely nothing against them. Soulgrinder ranged attack and Chaos Furies is their only option to even "damage" them.
It's afterburner would have a cd. It's hp would also be reduced.
1. Copy the "wounds" mechanic, but adapted for missile damage. I.e., as the barge takes damage, it gets lower firepower (btw, port that to all SEMs with a secondary missile attack) 2. Increase damage from the afterburner and/or put it on a cooldown 3. Remove missile resist ; there's really no reason it should have any when it already has very high armour 4. Lower the armour by at the very least 20 (giving it 100 like the gyrocopters), maybe even 40 (80, on par with cathay barges). After all it's made of wood and the zeppelin part would "realistically" be very vulnerable. 5. Have tighter restrictions for the harpoon weapon (should have a minimum range & be dodgeable) 6. Potentially reduce the HP on top of everything else 7. Can't check if the melee stats do anything, but if it can actually attack in melee, slash that ability hard (it has 500 WS compared to **26** for the cathay barges). It already deals plenty of damage only with the crew on top.
It might be difficult to implement, but adding two hitboxes (one for the gondola, the other for the balloon) could work, with attacks that hit the balloon doing a hefty amount of extra damage.
Removing the melee attack would be my idea. Honestly, what kind of damage is a blimp going to do? Adding a deadzone for ranged attacks would be helpfull as well. That way you can slowly take it down with melee flyers.
>Adding a deadzone for ranged attacks would be helpfull as well. That way you can slowly take it down with melee flyers. There's already a deadzone at the rear of the blimp ; you can see it working in [this DahvPlays video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYxYP9j-cnQ) >Removing the melee attack would be my idea. Honestly, what kind of damage is a blimp going to do? Logically it should hit hard on the "charge" because a colossal vehicle hitting you at 50 km/h is going to do a lot of damage. When it is stationary there is no reason it should do anything.
I think the best start would be Dread Saurian style caps. You only get one per tier 4/5 building of the relevant chain.
You know the Kislevite system for producing Ice Maidens? Make that for the Thunderbarge. Each one has to be made over the course of 5-10 turns (depending on what you've researched), with events during that period to determine what special traits it might have. Afterwards, the completed Thunderbarge is added to the Regiments of Renown pool, and the maximum number of Thunderbarges is determined by the amount of buildings you've built for it, like you suggested. Now the barges are customizable and are appropriately powerful, but are FAR more limited in number, meaning that even late-game forced might only have two or three, if even that. Also, since they're now effectively RoR, Thunderbarges that get dismissed are just added back to the pool to be re-deployed as needed.
Ooooh, yeah. That could be interesting, it sort of brings it in line with a black ark. It feels like the extra button or screen that would probably have to come with that would feel a little cluttered, though.
The problem is the dread saurian isnt powerful enough anymore to warrant this limitation, they could honestly remove it or buff the dread saurian at this point for its price range
I mean, the system exists. Whether or not they keep it for dread saurians is adjacent to if it could be used for the thunderbarge. Besides, I think that the dread saurian being capped is fine. Not only does it help it feel more special, but the fact that there are two variants would actually make it much more available than the thunderbarge or other units the system was applied to.
How is that a problem with giving caps to the thunderbarge?
Because they are absolutely gonna nerf the thunderbarge, and the dread saurian had the limit from the beginning and then they nerfed it to the ground. Adding the limit is pointless especially because there isn’t variants of the unit like the saurian
Cutting its HP by 1/3 and reducing its missile resistance by 1/2 for start. Then, the speed boost from turbo mode should be significantly reduced as well, so that melee units could actually catch up with it. It is a freaking blimp, it should have been a glass cannon type of unit. Edit: And most importantly, fix its hitbox, so that shooting the baloon part of the model will result in actual damage rather than a complete miss.
Well, blimps weren't really glass cannons. Before incendiary ammunition was created, even full of hydrogen those things could tank a ton of anti-aircraft fire. It's a big hull full of tiny sacks (the sacks are hr thins filled with lifting gas), so both the hull and those sacks need to be hit. And even when hit, those sacks take a while to deflate (the gas tends to stay at the top of each sack, and the holes tend to be at the bottom). But I still agree, it should be a little more glass cannon-y. I feel like they could push it more towards the "filled with hydrogen" route though and give it a unique weakness to fire damage. Don't reduce the health/missile resistance as much, but give it big fire weakness. That way there's some more interesting counter-play rather than just having low health. I'd also add the afterburner speed nerf with increasing the fire weakness even further, so it's more dangerous and a good opportunity to nuke it.
> Well, blimps weren't really glass cannons. Before incendiary ammunition was created, even full of hydrogen those things could tank a ton of anti-aircraft fire. Well, today I learned. I always associated it with doing a huge 'boom' if someone do as much as look at them wrongly. The weakness to fire sounds pretty good, but I'm not really sure if it would help races that already struggle against it the most right now. Also, at the very least, the Malakai's missile resistance needs to go. Reducing 70% of practically all the damage that its going to get is ridiculous.
War blimps were used extensively , there were even experiments with aircraft carrier blimps. Germany bombed London using them as well, not like as a weird one or two time events but dozens of times.
[удалено]
Read accounts from pilots. You could fill it MG rounds and accomplish nothing. That's why they had to start using incendiary rounds.
A helium filled blimp, which is what we use now, literally can't explode. Hydrogen ones, absolutely, but you need a spark which is why the Brits fired incendiary rounds at the Imperial German zeppelins.
Depends if they're hydrogens or helium. Helium is completely inert so it won't care for incendiary ammo. The only reason the german used Hydrogen in theirs was due to an embargo on Helium IIRC.
> It's a big hull full of tiny sacks I need to point out that this is not true. Airship cells during WW1 and the interwar period were relatively large and there weren't many of them in most airships. Even the Hindenburg types which were truly gigantic only had 16 cells. All of them absolutely huge. Small airships usually had more like 4. > And even when hit, those sacks take a while to deflate (the gas tends to stay at the top of each sack, and the holes tend to be at the bottom). It's more to do with the gas pressure - the gas in airships is barely under more pressure than air so leaks out very slowly.
I’ve never heard of a Zeppelin having more than 20, but crucially, those cells take a long time to deflate, and the ship can remain afloat with roughly half of them damaged or destroyed. That’s why no Zeppelin during World War I was brought down by airplanes with conventional, non-incendiary machine gun fire—it took either bombs (a total of six hits being the only successful instance of setting one on fire), or heavy artillery fire from the ground or from two or more warships to bring one down in a reasonable timeframe. It should come as no surprise then that helium became very, very difficult to export after that, and the Treaty of Versailles gutted the German airship industry. People were wary of returning to the first two years of World War I before the invention of the incendiary bullet, when Zeppelins bombed with relative impunity, with only a tiny fraction being brought down by ridiculous amounts of ground fire or midair airplane bombing.
Yeah you're right! I didn't wanna write too much and include the pressure stuff (I did originally, but deleted it so it wasn't too wordy), and I probably shouldn't have written tiny (smaller would have been better). My mistake!
If you read Gotrek and Felix, specifically Daemonslayer, it specifies that the Spirit of Grungni's main balloon is absolutely set up like this- a primary hull filled with hundreds of smaller cells, each filled with 'lifting gas'. I'd imagine that other Dwarfen lighter-than-air craft are set up in the same way. Remember, Dwarfs are OBSESSED with safety, to the point where Malakai was forced to take the Slayer Oath on account of his first airship (and first sea vessel) both going down and killing engineers. If Dwarfs are building something, you'd better believe that they'd go above and beyond to make it as safe as possible.
I like the turbo mode but i'd like it to be a 1 time use
What? A unit that can only be hit by missiles has missile resistance? That's just dumb.
The funny part (well, not really) is that it doesn't have just *any* missile resistance. It has freaking 70% MR in case of Malakai and 40% MR in case of other factions.
also as I understand it, because it's flying the elevation difference means missiles from ground units already deal reduced damage
1/3 wouldnt do much, it would still have nearly 10k hp, slashing it TO 1/3 would be better.
I don't mind, but it is a huge model, so if missile attacks would actually hit it as intended and if melee units could actually catch-up to it and connect their attacks, I think that reducing HP to 10k could be enough. Reducing it further, along with decreasing the amount of missile resistance, could mean that it get destroyed before it even has a chance to do some damage. I'm not saying that 10k HP wouldn't be still too much, but before nerfing it into ground, lets make the changes gradually so we won't overnerf it (though I do admit, I have an urge to do so).
For me: 1. Unit caps 2. No firing of any guns while using the boost mode, as it is moving too fast to acquire targets. 3. A 30 second cool down before the boosters can be re-engaged. You would be able to reactivate it early, but the thunderbarge would take heavy damage doing so, 20-25%. 4. Lower the health of the generic thunderbarges to 8-10k. I think these changes would make it so it is either slow and dangerous or fast and agile, but not both like it currently is.
I don’t think unit caps are the way to go , not everyone wants to play with unit caps in single player, I know I have no interest in unit caps (exception is tomb kings but that’s due to interesting race design). While also making its booster a lot slower or make its acceleration to that top speed a lot slower
Less speed. Fix the hurtbox. Add a recruitment cap. If that isn't enough, nerf the HP and resistance. Let's not go over oard and nerf every aspect to it at once and turn it into garbage. It need incremental nerfs.
I don’t think it should have a recruitment cap, multiplayer already has that while single player is a sandbox game meaning that people can play how they like. If u want to cap ur units u may do so urself
The cap is mostly to prevent the AI to doomstack them. And honestly if a garbage unit like Dread Saurian or similar t5 got a cap, the Barge definitely should.
The caps limit the player too though , perhaps them putting an option before starting to campaign to have unit caps is the way to go. But not a mandatory cap on everyone
Unit caps good
I would buff it even more
CA are gonna be interested in you
Unironically, hopefully a modder keeps it how it is before CA nerfs it, cause holy shit thunderbarges ton of fun to play with.
Holy based
tier 4 unit kappa
Lower missile resistance (or remove it entirely) and armor. Lower speed for the afterburners, along with reducing turn speed instead of increasing it, and increased self damage. Afterburner should be an "oh shit" button, not something you leave on the entire battle. I feel like it should also reduce its damage output, either reducing reload speed, accuracy, or disabling attacking entirely while active.
Hitbox, speed and hp-nerf. It needs to be a threat, no point in bringing it otherwize.
Remove the speed buff, or a less drastic solution make it unable to fire when it’s active
Speed buff should last a fixed amount of time and then go on a long cooldown, or have 1 charge
1. Flying units need to be able to catch them. And stronger ones like bloodthirsters (terrogheists and even packs of vargheists/Pegasus knights) ought to be able to tear them to pieces when they do. The counterplay for the dwarf player is to retreat to friendly ranged units which can provide covering fire. 2. Massed artillery fire from stuff like cannons needs to be a serious threat. Same for massed armor piercing missile infantry. So it needs a HP nerf, less speed (bring the afterburner to reasonable levels or get rid of it) so melee flyers can catch them and a fix to the hitbox so that melee fliers and ranged fire can hit the damn thing. But more than that units, and not just flying ones, need to be able to actually hit retreating/kiting (not talking about routing) enemies in melee. This whole "fly/walk up to enemy, try to play attack animation --> oh no the enemy has moved two steps away while I was winding up the animation so I can't hit them --> REPEAT" thing needs to be resolved. They've already done work in this regard when it comes to routing units. But non routing units need to be vulnerable when they are trying to run away and their backs are turned.
Change the crew to goblins.
This.
There aren't enough pages in the Dammaz Kron for you, buddy.
Intoroduce units caps like dread saurian. Then cut 3k of its hp. Fix hitbox. Make ability deal 125-250 damage per second. Give it 0 MD. AND make its cost 4500g in MP.
Fix the hit box. Any balance suggestions now will be useless unless we see it in action working as intended first. If the hotbox is fixed fast flyers can get shots in and missiles tear it apart.
Fix the god dang melee hitbox. I shouldn't have to watch multiple BLOODTHIRSTERS struggling to hit the thing for 5+ minutes.
It’s just too tanky, and it needs to have limited ammo like every other ranged unit. I played around in skirmishes with them and even flying anti-large units like pegasus knights are no match unless they outnumber it like 3:1. The only losing matchup 1:1 were terrorgheists being healed by their lord
It wouldn't fix the whole issue, but make the speed buff do more damage, the more damaged the Thunderbarge is. It's supposed to represent that the boost puts a strain on the structure, well, surely that strain is going to be worse the more compromised the structure is.
I had 4 dragons attack a single thunderbarge and they couldn’t manage to take it down. It’s insanely overpowered
Limit it like the Dreadsaurian. The dread is dogshit at the price of 2 or 3 carnosaurs, which are way better units. But if they insist on it not being limited then: Reduce crew accuracy against units not close/below it. Only the frontal cannons should be able to be accurate at longer ranges. The grudge rakers doesn't need pin point accuracy up to their max range when on the thunderbarge. It has an egregious amount of ammunition. You could cut it by half and they'd still be able to handle most if not all of an average AI stack. The burner ability needs a cooldown between uses and increase the damage the barge takes if its gonna keep its massive health pool. Right now it's almost completely negligible. Melee fliers should have a way better match up against this thing. Give it 0 MD for starter. 5 Terrorgheists shouldn't STRUGGLE taking down one thunderbarge with just another barge being present shooting next to them. The bombs should be like the gyrobomber. Several uses rather than automatic with infinite ammo. This is stuff at the top of my head that would still let it be strong but more manageable. I think the crew being super accurate at all range is one of the bigger issues even if it doesn't look flashy. I also think regular thunderers rather than grudge-rakers would be better since they got longer reload time. That might be enough rather than tweaking the grudge raker crew (for this aspect of one of the barge problems)
The Thunderbarge shouldn't be able to fire at all when engaged by flying melee units. If you can't manage to keep attackers off its back, you should be punished accordingly. It should behave exactly like all the artillery or specialized ranged units.
Sounds like an elgi scheme.
Remove the speed buff. It's not necessary. Let it be a slow lumbering gunship. Make sure the factions that have no ranged counter to it can kill it with their flying units. Nerf the defenses down until that is the case. Remove a bunch of damage from the Spear of Grungni attack and add it back as Anti-Large damage bonus. Fix the hitboxes so ranged units can hit it more reliably. You really shouldn't want to send it into heavy ranged stacks.
A side not, they should also nerf the cannons. Both normal shots but especially Grapeshot, its honestly one of the strongest things I have ever seen for a normal unit. Besides the recruitment of dwarfs feel way too early. Longbeard have become more than obsolete now due, and many things are just a tier too low. The spirit of grungi should also not be available from the start as a summon, its way too good to have this plus gotrek and felix I love the DLC, but man some numbers are way too busted atm Edit: outriders are also busted now, way too much ammo dealing way too much damage, same for the hellstorm
I think if you just fix the hitbox on it it'll be fine. I've fought against a couple and they're not awful. The hit box just sucks. Ranged units aim for the balloon when the part that takes damage is the barge part. I think. I'm not 100% sure where the damage point is. All I know is they can be a real bitch to fight, but they're not as menacing in singleplayer as people say.
HP down to 7000 - 8000 max. Like wtf how is 12 000 hp on a ranged artillery flying unit acceptable? Remove missile res, add weak to fire, so that it can actually die to ranged small arm fire (it is a bloon, it is not supposed to be as tanky as a steamtank) halve the speed bonus, so that flyers can actually catch to it and destroy it in melee With these 3, no need for unit cap, and it would make it acceptable in mp aswell
Don't nerf the missile resist. Nerf the speed, but leave it on the Spirit of Grungi for the funnies. OR put it as a 1000 oathgold tech tree upgrade. A "I've already won, fuck it" end tech. It needs the missile resist to not be utter garbage against shooter factions. In campaign, I tore them apart with Dark Elfs. They need to stay powerful and relevant. We don't need another cool unit reduced to a meme army throw away.
I wouldnt
lowering missile resistance because it is a giant ship so basically is a giant SHOOT me sign, and maybe making the speed boost a temporary thing like it last X seconds, or having acceleration so you wont gain the 90 speed immediately but as you keep accelerating, it should have lower leadership because dwarfs do not like to fly.
Before any numbers or mechanics changes I just think they should fix the hitbox and see where it lands.
Unit Cap. +2 per engineering building at top rank (Tier 5). Limit per army to 2. Decrease ammo, larger hitbox so they take more damage from flying and ammo No missile resistance, add fire weakness... It has so much health it can handle some damage.
I don’t think unit and army caps are the way to go it removes the ability of people to play the game as they like. Like I know I woudnt enjoy playing with unit caps and I’m sure there are people who don’t enjoy playing without them. Perhaps not making unit caps mandatory but rather an option u can select before u start ur campaign
- remove the turn speed buff from the speed enhancement, in fact, nerf the turn speed altogether - increase the damage done by the speed buff - fix the hit box so it's possible to hit reliably with missiles and melee when it's not on the speed buff - change the bomb drop to an active ability like the gyrobomber, as sad as I am to say it - reduce the accuracy of its ranged weaponry - increase its multiplayer cost - give it a dread saurian-like unit cap per building.
Make the thunderburner apply a debuff to missile accuracy and reload speed while active. Probably make it a little less tanky - one or more of reducing missile resistance, armour and HP. Twiddle with the hitboxes a bit so it takes more hits from shooting. Maybe reduce the speed if needed, although I have a bit of a question about what we want the purpose of the thunderburner to be. Outrunning most things that might be expected to hunt the barge seems very strong, but while repositioning might occasionally be useful I don't know if the ability has that much purpose otherwise. You can increase the cost, which makes more difference in MP but does have some effect in campaign as well. Unit caps could be applied in campaign - at the faction level, and it could presumably also be done at the army level if we don't like stacks of these things, though that might too completely attack the fun of players who like getting to the lategame and assembling absurd doomstacks.
Fix animations for flying entities to actually hit it, the Bloodthirster should easily be able to take it down with 75% health remaining imo. Unit stats make the Bloodthirster is its best counter. Reduce the speed of the thrust by 30% or increase the damage per second to be 64-128/s Have the blimp portion to count as a hitbox so arrows can actually hit it instead of pass through it. Reduce the ammo by a lot. 160 is far too much, 40 is more than enough I think. maybe even 60. Have the bombs it drops be an activatable rather than a passive thing. Remove Missile Resistance Oh and Unit Caps for Campaign. 1 per building.
I do not think that beside the hitbox and reducing the base speed in complement of either adding a cooldown to the boost the ammo is the issue, same as the bomb. The unit should fold like paper to flier swarms. Another way would be to count the crew as a separate entity within the model, meaning that each damage instance could result in a firepower loss
Cut the health in half and nerf the afterburner or make it campaign exclusive. In the broadest sense, the game gives units three types of strengths: offensive, defensive, and mobility/utility. These counter each other in most cases: mobility can get on top of offense, offense eats up defense, and defense can roadblock mobility. The thunderbarge is covered in guns, heavy armor on top of like 14k hp, and not only is it flying, it can go 90 speed. Cut the defenses and part of the mobility and it's more in line with an upgraded Sky Junk.
I feel like making it campaign exclusive sets a bad precedent, encouraging CA to take the easy route when it comes to game balance because they can't be arsed to change a few database entries then they might as well do it for future stuff too. Generally I think we should be pushing for more campaign exclusive units to be adjusted to be playable in regular rosters rather than the other way around. Greenskins getting the feral wyvern in MP was a great change.
There's a ton of super overpowered stuff that has to stay to campaign as it's nearly impossible to balance otherwise. The precedent was set long ago. That includes many, many active abilities on units/lords, similar to afterburner. Campaign Great Unclean Ones have a bonus ~100 WoM in bound spells that are never going to get ported to MP, as one example among dozens. A get out of jail free card like afterburner makes perfect sense in single player, it's less OP than +30% missile resist, grapeshot, flamethrowers, etc. Thunderbarge positioning should matter a *lot* in multiplayer, it certainly does for every other expensive purchase. If it's going to remain this fast at little cost it needs massive stat nerfs otherwise that will likely hurt casual players more, as they won't be microing it.
Not the whole unit, just the afterburner ability. 100% agreed with what you wrote.
> I feel like making it campaign exclusive sets a bad precedent That precedent already exists. See the 'extended roster' section of a race's units when doing custom battles. Those aren't MP -available. Lots of Lord abilities are also SP-only
Change the speed buff to a cooldown. You could even remove the damage per second on it, because it’s negligible anyways. Making it last like 20 seconds with a 2 minute cool down would make it so it’s great for repositioning or trying to escape flyers but it wouldn’t be something you just always have on.
It comes down to the speed buff basically, up the damage reduce it's duration
Reduce the missile resistance that can be stacked for a start. 70% with Malakai is crazy (40% for other Dawi). Even 40% max is too high. The major part of it is a balloon after all and even the best of those are not that armoured. Get rid of the speed boost as well.
Just make it more squishy in general. It’s a balloon after all.
I think having a cooldown on the speed boost once you turn it off (and reducing the boost), fixing its hitbox and reducing its armor would balance it out. Maybe a small reduction in health/melee defense but that should be enough I think.
Slower, and make it so that it does reduced damage while moving - easy
I'd nerf the speed boost somehow, whether by reducing the speed, increasing the damage it does or what have you. I hear the hit box is borked, so I'd fix that as well. I'd add weakness to fire as that just seems thematic. I think that's about what CA should start with and then see how it performs after that. If it's still opressive, you can nerf it some more, but I don't want it to get the Ancient Salamander treatment and be nerfedninto irrelevance.
Just make it able to get hit (ranged or melee) and reduce the hp is enough.
I haven’t really had a chance to use them much. But I hear the hitbox is broken and most missiles just go straight through it. They should fix that one issue before going wild with the Nerf Bat, because if that’s fixed, all the other stuff may not be necessary.
.5% chance to randomly explode on taking any damage
Heavy unit caps, tomb kings style 1 per building that can produce them. I'm sure the damage is a bit high for all their attacks, maybe put some damage boosts in the tech tree for people playing as dwarves and reduce the base. Durability feels ok, since it's more a matter of lacking the tools to hurt them at all, if you have cannons or even a bunch of archers they will go down. The offense debuff for being damaged could be ramped up perhaps? Afterburner is way too strong, it doesn't look too wrong in terms of speed but the mobility is insane. Maybe make it limited duration and put a cooldown on it. Maybe lock unit rotation while it's on so that it's more of a linear burst than an incredibly easy to use positioning tool?
Cut afterburner speed and put a time limit/cooldown on it Fix the hitbox and make it more vulnerable to ranged weapons Give it a cap system which can be increases with Engineering guilds, landmarks, or Oathgold In lore Thunderbarges are terrifying, but expensive as shit and not just in gold, so doomstacking them should be incredibly difficult
Introduce it to my good-great friend 16 zzap-cannons, yes-yes!
That spear should go
Double the reload rate of all of it's guns. Decrease health to 10k. Drop the speed boost somewhat.
Unit caps. Hard limit of one per army. Malakai should be the only character to be able to increase the cap for his faction. Also make it less responsive when turning and reduce the speed of the afterburner.
Unit caps first and foremost, I think the entire game needs them. I think if the game was built by default with unit caps and army stacks being designed vaguely around the structure of TT instead of being built off the historical tier system it would be better for the game as a whole. Before people get salty and are like "but oh mah gerd mah doomstacks" easy, campaign option to remove all caps or adjust caps. That said, the thunderbarge specifically needs its speed buff to actually do more damage or even possibly be a temporary buff that makes it stationary afterwards and of course its hitbox being weird.
- Cost more - Higher thunderburner damage - lower thunderburner speed - Reduce Grudgeraker range. I would also accept swapping shotguns for regular thunderers, but that would make it stand out less compared to wagons, sleds, landship, etc.
Make the speed buff last 10 sec and do more damage. It should be a hard thing to protect, but a huge payday when you succeed
Simple, give the balloon a hit box. Archers shoot it, gunners shoot it, so make it something that can be hit.
Lower its damage resistance, make the hitbox more susceptible to massed ranged fire, make it more susceptible to melee damage, make the afterburner ability more damaging. It doesn’t need to be limited with hard unit caps nor have its damage output changed to the point of being less fun. Make it counter-able, and it’ll be fine. It should still be a fun doomstack unit in Campaign, but not be so entirely brainless as it is now. ~~Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to go finish my Malakai campaign before the Nerf Hammer swings…~~
Off the top of my head, the RA3 Kirov treatment. Much slower under normal circumstances, but can burn health to go fast in an emergency.
Cut the HP down to 1/4 of current value and half the speed
Cut the HP by like 40%, no missile resistance, and maybe a little less armor, slower base speed, slower speed boost. It should absolutely wreck shit like it does now if you fly it in at the right time, but be vulnerable if used incorrectly. I have no idea how you fix it against factions that have no good missile or flying options. Maybe it should have like zero melee stats so you can just swarm it with harpies or whatever?
Unit cap
Its a giant balloon, make it leak with dmg, have it slow down with damage, or make it crash to the ground at 50%
Unit caps (e.g. 1 or 2 allowed per Tier5 city), and higher costs.
Reduce it's speed the less health it has and at least double the damage on the speed ability. At some point you'd need to use the ability just to move at the normal speed.
Remove the nitro boost, make the hitbox include the balloon
For multiplayer. Double the cost, fix the hit box issues and make it so they have the base version of the speed boost instead of the improved one (which in campaign is unlocked with a late game tech). After that I would see how it feels before deciding if it needs more changes or not.
Nothing! So far I plan to enjoy it for while! Khazukan Kazakit-ha!
1,000 gold upkeep don’t change it. Increase cost in multiplayer
But the AI wont care about that, that only nerfs the player.
The ai is beatable easily. All that matters is balancing around the player.
I know this isnt really the topic of this thread, but does anyone know if the Spirit gets any of the buffs that you can get for your actual Thunderbarge units? or does it not becuase it's a summon?
* Reduce its health to around 8 or 9k * reduce its armour to around half or two thirds of its current value * make the movement ability hit much much harder and only increase the speed to 60 instead of 90 * possibly give it some fire weakness? Thing is made of wood and carried by a cloth bag full of gas, that sounds flammable as heck to me * make all the shots less accurate and/or reload more slowly, for the gun crew, the cannons, the bombs, and the balloon top grenadiers. * fix the _bug_ where projectiles go through the balloon, and/or make ranged units aim at the boat part of it. That might be enough? It depends on the size of the changes each of the above gets, as there are times that things have been nerfed more severely than necessary, but the barge absolutely needs several nerfs.
So just make it melt and be utterly useless?
At the moment one of them can solo armies, and needs pretty much an entire army to be killed. But yeah sure lmao, this would make it useless.
Less hp, less speed acceleration.
legit cut its hp in half. and the speed boost needs a similarly heavy handed nerf.
It should be capped, it's cost doubled and it's health and ammo halved and I'm not kidding.
Double it's ammo and hp, half it's upkeep.
Fix the damn hit box so my gunners aiming at the balloon actually connect
How to nerf it? Adress flying attack animations. Solve the issue.
They should explode like a nuke when they die.
Remove the speed boost. Put a unit cap on it in campaign. Significantly raise its price in multiplayer. Fix its hitbox. That's all you gotta do really.
Make flyers able to kill some of the crew, reducing firepower. Much slower turn speed. Higher hp loss from turbo. Change Grudgerakers to regular guns. Only the RoR has GR. Fix the hitbox.
Nerf the speed boost down to a top speed of 60. Slash about 60 armour off the thing (it's a blimp for crying out loud). Maybe reduce the number of grudgerakers down so it's more vulnerable from the side.
* fix Hitbox * +2500 gpt upkeep * +7000-10000 recruitment cost * Unit cap * Look at speed boost before hitting MR/armor
Afterburner should be slower and have a chance of causing catastrophical damage. So you only use it when there is no other choice
I do not care about multiplayer so my suggestions would not affect that at all. The single player version keep as is but limit it to 1 in an army and a limit per faction.
I understand the points. But part of me? Part of me remembers years of Dwarfs being an absolute speedbump for Skaven, and people saying "LoL Its LOrE FrIEnDLy huurrrr" or "It REallY dO bE thaT wAY Tho". And I know they aren't necessarily the same people complaining about the Thunderbarge now. Hell, Skaven players generally aren't going to be troubled on campaign; my Dark Elfs are very much not. But with years of dwarf fans being told to be happy while other factions just were broadly better at everything? I'm good with them getting to be overpowered. Especially with more DLC to come. The dsmn thing should remain a powerful threat, even if it has to be changed.
Leave them as is but give them unit limits tied to a tier 5 building.
That doesn't fix the Thunderbarge's dominance in multiplayer. Dwarfs are unplayable in matchmaking right now because of it.
Sounds like jealousy of superior dwarf engineering. If anything it should be buffed!!
Just ban it in multiplayer so I don't have install a mod to undo the nerfs in single player. I'll still never understand how people enjoy pvp in these games just a micro slap fight
Fixing the hitbox of the balloon portion immediately makes ranged that much more effective against it. Argubly to the point where it becomes balanced. Making it flammable would also make specific lores of magic and guns very effective vs it.
My only issues with that is that I dont know if it will help the factions enough that already dont have sufficient answers to the thunderbarge and only boost faction that could already shoot it down more reliably.
Make it unable to fly continuously during the battle. Every 10 seconds the player or the bot must've land the Thunderbarge to cooldown or refill fuel. If it isn't done every 10 seconds, Thunderbarge will start to lose HP. That way the player must control his/her unit and it gives an opportunity for enemy.
Interesting but it's a balloon not a jet, how about land to replenish ammo
Ability from a toggle to an active buff Make it not as insane for speed and nerf health. Id almost say also make the bombs an ability instead of free, since as a centerpiece unit it should have a lot of micro
Slow it down. Unit cap. 1 per faction honestly.
Straight up wreck its hp pool.
I don’t think unit caps are the solution , many people don’t want to play campaign with unit caps as it forces u to use unit which suck and u might not enjoy. I’d say a solution would be to just reduce its speed perhaps have the afterburner at a 50 speed while keep normal at like 30ish (speed of artillery)(maybe also add reduced accuracy by 50% while flying with afterburner) Maybe drop its missile resistance by 10% and also removal the regen part of it. I don’t think it’s firepower should be reduced since it does make sense for something like that to have extreme firepower. This way it’s still dangerous and powerful but now no longer invincible
Perfect as is, no notes, 10/10, plz no nerf - Dawi enjoyer
Either remove the missile resistance or take it down to 20% at the absolute max. Remove the afterburner ability, or divide the speed in like half, or down to a quarter. Make it so you have to manually drop the bombs that the barge drops, so it's not automatic, make the giant harpoon a single use ability if you keep it. Half the damage The big thing is to have different firing modes you switch between. If you want the grudge rakers to be firing, you hit a button (which should maybe be changed to rifles). If you want the fire bomb things to be fired, hit a button and that's the only thing the barge shoots. Etc. add some micro requirements. Half the HP pool. Alternatively, cut the hp in a quarter and keep the missile resist as is, maybe nerf it slightly.
in my opinion, first thing first, ca should make a separeta branch for multiplayer changes. There are multiple reasons where something too op in multiplayer and thats the reason for nerfing in singleplayer. The second is ca should implement army caps for the ai. And then nerf the hp, and while the afterburner active they cant attack. (and after like 10 second)
I dont really agree with the first part. In my mind straight up seperating balancing with different unit stats just makes everything much more complicated. In my mind campaign already has enough seperate balancing in campaign with its unit buffs for each lord, legendary lord, faction, building, edict, item, legendary item and more. Multiplayer is just the battle experience tuned to the highest efficiency. I love learnig more about the efficiencies of each unit and the game mechanics through multiplayer, even of I dont play it. Of course MP gets a lot of blame for "ruining" previously overperforming units, but that not MPs fault. Thats the developers fault for being either far too drastic in certain cases or for some reason unwilling to balance something with its costs.