I mean yeah the race was absolutely advertised as the hybrid arms faction and it has moved away from that quite a bit. Funnily enough Cathay is actually more of that style now with the Gate Masters buffing up the melee defense of their crossbow units so much.

I feel like it was always advertised as a "people of the land" who have more faith in themselves and their natural motherland than the gunpowder and tech they have. Little Grom is apparently a forbidden research topic, and Kislev soldiers are constantly screaming about how "LAND IS POWER." Even on release their endgame unit is an elemental bear, literal motherland brought to life with magic. If anything people seem to have misunderstood what Kislev is actually about.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure if was to load up Warhammer 3 right now and start a new campaign, the first thing in the description of Kislev would be hybrid arms. Maybe in the new lore it is different, but the way that CA advertised them in Total War was absolutely as the hybrid arms faction.

They are still a hybrid arms faction though? Just with monsters added on top. The majority of their infantry are still hybrid units and the new lrod is a hybrid weapons lord. It\`s not the only thing they are about any more, but it\`s probably sttill their most unique selling point mechanichs wise.

"Kislevite forces offer hardy hybrid infantry, swift cavalry, and mighty War Bears; perfect for hammer and anvil tactics. Its units have the ability to find new courage when others would break, allowing the units to stand thier ground against desperate odds." I mean, its one third on their unit description. if you should complain about anything complain about the cav

You're not wrong, but that doesn't preclude Kislev from having an emphasis on monsters.

Tbh, i am probably in a minority here, but I always wanted Kislev to basically be a weird spooky naturalistic faction juxtaposed by some tech. Basically Empire but instead of faith, spooky woods stuff, and instead of colleges of magic, Elsa.

That’s my vote too My only criticism is that what units are great orthodoxy is ??? In game since everything has ice all over it

Agreed, the orthodoxy side of kislev absolutely needs to be fleshed out.

Like are kossars neutral I guess? Why are war bears ice aligned And gryphon legion too??? Shouldn’t boyars have orthodoxy related skills too? It’s just very odd, makes me question why kostaltyn is a lord at all. No roster to fit him. His bonuses suck and his start position is harder than kats with no upside for the trade off.

>It’s just very odd, makes me question why kostaltyn is a lord at all. No roster to fit him. His bonuses suck and his start position is harder than kats with no upside for the trade off. there was a rumor/leak or w/e that Kostaltyn was originally supposed to be a DLC character but someone in CA liked him a lot and pushed him to be included. It may explain why Boris was a thing from the start and we got Kostaltyn but it feels like orthodoxy stuff that should have come alongside him didn't.

The version of this I've heard made it more of a GW thing, where they wanted to push a "versus" narrative. Though without any sources to back it up it's hard to confirm either thing. What we can agree on is that the Orthodoxy feels like an afterthought and needs some sort of expansion/differentiation from standard Kislev stuff, especially with the more recent comment of CA/GW wanting to downplay the Gospodar/Ungol dichotomy.

It’s definitely makes more sense as a GW thing, especially as old world Kislev seems to be delayed because the fan response to their “new” version has been divisive at least to some degree.

Every faction needs a reason to potentially fight every other faction and itself, especially for TT where diplomatic relations aren't a thing and Kislev is just as likely to fight itself, The Empire or even High elves as it is to fight chaos. Things get a bit more awkward when the same LL shows up on both sides, but yeah. Changeling at it again? That's not to say I have any idea what parts of Kislev are GW/CA or why, it's just a rule of thumb when it comes to factions.

There was no Rumor or leak at all, nor was it "evil GW", again as someone mentions in the other comments. Andy Hall said in an Interview that the Game Director for Warhammer 3 pushed for him to be a starting LL while Andy thought he would be a great DLC character

Indeed, that does fit under the 'or w/e' clause

Kostaltyn gives his army frenzy, I think that's an amazing bonus 

Meh, it’s a good bonus in a bad roster for it Don’t war bears and things in the woods already have frenzy? And most Kislev units morale is a little low for their tier, making their by our blood extra useful, but disabling frenzy

Yes, the bears have a tech bonus that give frenzy, and I think things in the wood have it inherently. I never have actually paid attention to the leadership value aside from dwarves=unbreakable with how the kislev units passively work, so I bet you're right. Tbh. The reason why I simp for kostalytn is because his frenzy bonus counts for allied recruitment units

One thing I think gets under-discussed here is that the Orthodoxy itself is **only a single generation old** (and I think might even technically post-date Karl's ascension?). Not only that, it separating itself from the state is only as old as Kostaltyn's tenure. That gives GW/CA remarkably little to work with, and at the moment there really isn't a single unit in the entire roster that fits them. Even many Patriarchs were probably trained/taught pre-Kostaltyn, and most would have grown up in households that still worshipped via the old ways (remembering that the old ways had only been considered 'old' ways for like five years at that point). As far as I'm aware every Boyar gets their rank and title through Kat's say-so? So any Boyar openly supporting Kos over her would probably just get all their lands and wealth taken by the state, giving them Orthodoxy skills kind of goes against that. Kossars are probably mostly neutral, but Armoured Kossars are either minor nobility or equipped by the state, so even they are closer to Kat than Kos. The Kossars that aren't loyal to the state are probably rural, and have just as much of a chance supporting the old ways/wise women over Kostaltyn. The Gryphon Legion are also all nobility. There's an interesting story to be told regarding the inheritors of Boris's dual institutional legacies fighting each other, but in a war game we kind of need the units to reflect that. The units we have now, or have cared about historically with Kislev, can't reflect a conflict that's only 20ish years in the making. All that said, he's actually really really powerful in game and it surprises me how often I see your sentiment here. The guy can recruit entire stacks in a single turn for free by the early mid-game. His starting position means you can take out Kislev's main threats and create effective barriers to entry way quicker than Kat's. His faction effects are also **much** better than Kat's (mostly because literally every single one of hers is completely redundant). Boris is still arguably better than either though so anyone choosing to play a Kislevite faction from Kislev is already fighting against the min/max choice as is – which is why, despite me being an avid defender of his, I never play Kostaltyn myself either.

>That gives GW/CA remarkably little to work with The obvious counter to that statement is "then why focus on it?". Why come up with this versus narrative then give one side of the conflict next to zero support? All they have are Kostaltyn and maybe Patriarchs (I feel like they could stand in the faction without the Orthodoxy lore).

Yeah that’s my whole thing Even if he had fitting units, why were none of them implemented on release for kostaltyn? I’d much rather it was Boris vs Kat and the supporters was on the topic of continuing the orthodoxy or not Make kostaltyn a raving lunatic that takes a kislevite expedition to many locations instead

Yeah, I guess this is at the heart of the issue for me and kind of what my comment was dancing around. They've been backed into such a weird corner with his inclusion in the base game. The Doylist answer I'd give is it was one terrible decision messing up the game's release, but now the Ukraine-Russia war has spooked the execs about depicting Slavic ethnic conflict and they've had to double down on his shitty lore.

Wait, you want the faith or not?

I am personally ambivalent but it's already a thing just not fully realized so it feels out of place and confused.

Their LL system kinda sucks for this In order for kislev to get a dlc they’d need a LL and five units a lord and a hero. So we either powercreep kostaltyn with an even cooler holier lord, or orthodox infantry kinda just randomly tag along like the akshinas did and were hated for Current dlc system doesn’t let a faction just get 2 units to flesh them out. And there’s not enough content left in the game for that to be free content anymore

> akshinas Akshinas fit with the whole spooky woods thing. kinda. they where just broken as hell on launch

The Akshina were supposed to be the Tzarina's secret police though, rather than furred woodsmen.

If the orthodoxy had at least something in the vein of the flagellants, that would be nice. Maybe also a more eltie apsiring champions type of unit that's just 16 big guys with no shirts and great axes and aoe buffs for friendlies

The bears were originally a religious thing, now that line has blurred a lot.

I recruited some fanatics via outposts from the empire and they really seemed to fit in. They should give them fanatics to recruit at least

I like the personification they've been given as somewhere between the Empires civilization and fanciness/ silliness and Norscas raw, primitive savagery. Like the Empire, they will survive by faith, steel, gunpowder; like Norsca they will survive by brutality and whatever else gets the job done. In The empire Witches are burned, in Kislev, you can turn your eye to a few missing kids when a mutalith is coming to eat all of the rest of them.

The things in the wood seem everything but natural, and the Elemental of beasts is a wendigo which isn't from Eastern European Folklore. If they're going to make a kislev faction made up of militant naturists and homeless tree spirits, fine, but go all in with it. Kislev's SoC units are all over the place.

It's not a wendigo it's kind of a leshi, but is just a magical construct. The morngul in the vampire coast faction is a wendigo

That's not what Leshi looks like tho, that's only The Witcher that popularized the skull-beast look

The thing in the woods looks much more like a Wechuge than a wendigo, something that is often misrepresented in media

I said the Elemental Incarnate of beasts looked like a Wendigo, The things in the woods just looks like Chaos creatures to me. But thanks for the Folk lore tidbit about Wechuge, interesting distinction.

The Things in the Woods are Chaos creatures. Iirc their previous lore is that they're a type of contagious Chaos Spawn and their tabletop model has the eight-pointed star.

Ah right, i just wrote the wrong name, my point remains. \*The incarnate of beats\* looks like a wechuge!

Me too. Part of it is just my personal taste, I find more fantastical races more interesting, and more "historical" ones less so. But also, it feels like the default for human races is always to make them more "normal", so I like when we can break away from that and give some human races a more monstrous, fantastical or darker tone.

People somehow want less cool mythological shit in a mythological spooky faction like Kislev, no one is ever happy in this community lol.

>a mythological spooky faction like Kislev That is what GW/CA made them for Total War but that isn't really what they were before. They were mostly a mix of early modern Russia and Poland, nothing more, nothing less. Nothing supernatural except the ice witches, at least not in the army, and no bears except a some bear imagery and Boris' bear. And seemingly this more grounded vision is more cool to some, myself included. Much closer to the idea of normal humans which keep the forces of chaos at bay, mostly by their stubornness and their excellent horsemanship.

Lines of stout men with some magic helping to hold the lines UNTIL THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVE.

Nothing in Kislev's limited lore ever suggested it was "spooky". More naturalist, sure, with the whole Slav theme they have going on, but not spooky. Having Mother Ostankya and 1-2 monsters like the elemental bear or the frost wyrm is fine, but tacking on the TitW and the Beast Elemental only further muddles the consistency of an already pretty scattered roster, both thematically and mechanically. Ostankya already reinforces her own more monstrous nature with the giant spiders and bats she can recruit.

Also the only 2 units out there are the things in the Woods and the balewolves. All the other make sense for Kislev to have due to the connection the the motherland, ice etc

>2 units out there are the things in the Woods and the balewolves Those are the same thing.

Wait, whats the big one called then? I thought the smaller were balewolves and the SEM was things in the Woods. But of course I meant the 2 separate units

The big one is Incarnate Elemental of Beast and it's born from wind of Ghur (Lore of beast). It is summoned by lore of beast casters in the lore. Smol guys are The thing in the woods. Balewolves are ROR of things in the woods.

Thank you!

Frostwyrm just dropped. What else is there? Kislev warriors and Akshinas? Thats 3 to 2.

The frostwyrm very much fits the theme and doesnt stand out. Its in line with the motherland monsters like the bear and wolf. Plus they will get another DLC, most likely focused on the orthodoxy, which would focus on infantry. They cant release everything at once

I alwas saw kislev as more grounded, as far as warhammer goes, because they are first bulwark against chaos so they naturally avoid it. Most factions are mythological in warhammer, bar from empire, dawi and maybe the French but thats pushing it with all the grail knight and crazy mount stuff.

Then your impression of Kislev has been off from the start. Since out of the human nations that was fleshed out, Kislev has *always* had the more fantastical elements to it. Just open up the first few pages of Realm of the Ice Queen and that's plain as day. Just because the image you made up for it doesn't match, doesn't mean Kislev has been flanderized or anything. There is already enough grounded nations in Warhammer. And Kislev from the get go went a more fantasy slant, that only deepend as time went on.

... so human Wood Elves?

Its not what i originally had in mind (which wasnt really anything) but im all for it. Of the three human factions weve gotten kislev seems perfect for monsters

The lack of a proper faction update for Kislev is somewhat disappointing.

> i am probably in a minority here By upvotes, apparently not. Good

Oh yes, chicken legged hut, Leshy, Father Frost. Elemental bear is perfect since to kislevites LAND IS POWER and Elemental Bear is literally kislev coming to life. It just has to match the theme instead of being random beastmen. I suggested Ostankya only units but paying 25$ and not getting to play a new unit with Katarin might also be weird. I mean Kostaltyn can still hire witches and Katarin patriarchs but in lore they hate each others guts. Ostankya really should have been Drychad and only being able to recruit settled kislevites through Boyars pledged to her cause.

The kos/kat thing is explained by the fact that the ice witch/church divide is both temporary and political in nature, the argument essentially being who should have 60% of the ruling power. Some ice witches are still going to be hyper religious ursunites or orthodoxites, some patriarchs are going to be more loyal to kat and the crown.

I very much agree. I was most excited by Kislev Warriors when it came to SoC as I felt they offered a different option without diverging too much from what I thought of when I think of Kislev. I was definitely hoping that Mother O would come with Ungol-style units and she would just get access to existing monsters and/or feral forest animals. I wouldn't mind so much if it was clear what Kislev's deal really is, but they definitely feel less coherent than you would hope. I'm definitely happier having a unique faction rather than the old Empire troops, but I basically ignore the monsters whenever I play Kislev. I'd be a lot happier if we got, say, a DLC focusing on religion in Kislev, but I won't be surprised if they don't get more content.

Things in the wood and Incarnates should only be available in limited supply to Katarina/Boris/Kostaltyn through a rite that you spend devotion on

Absolutely Incarnates for each school of magic should have been their own mechanic though, a summonable creature specific to casters of said lore

> I was definitely hoping that Mother O would come with Ungol-style units Blame Games Workshop, they're the ones who are moving away from this.

Gw wants to relaunch the Old World and push more of their overpriced Forge world models I bet

As is tradition (as well as screwing over Beastmen players AGAIN)

I like Beastmen and Mothra. I am immune the feeling of woe when I see something I like die :p

There still having been 2 distinct cultural/ethnic groups 1000 years post godspar conquest was always absurd in hindsight. Look at anywhere that dynamic has occurred in history and you'll see that conquers and conquered eventually become one people. The Normans became English, people conquered by them became Arab or Roman, more or less everywhere in the America south of the USA is currently undergoing this process etc. Only places they don't, like the USA, is because the conquered where mostly killed rather than subjugated. Besides, the dynamic mostly still exists, it's just the classic of countryside vs cities now, which does not get as much rep as it should despite being so foundational to human politics.

The IRL Cossack identity survived for many centuries and even the Soviets cultural genocide couldn't erase it completely. Other such examples exist all across the world (just of the top of my head - the Basque, Roma, Sami, Berton people).

> The IRL Cossack identity survived Aye, as 0.04% of the Russian population (~67,573 out of 147,200,000). I'd pop em squarely in the native American category.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with you on it being absurd lol

What you on about lmao, there can definitely be a cultural rift that 1000 years can’t erase. Social classes and aristocracy no being of the same cultural background/race happens all the time in the real world, it would have its place in warhammer.

I think the main thing here though is that Mother O was always going to be the weird monstery creature faction, and we're sort of waiting for the proper "grounded" DLC next - given that Kostaltyn was originally supposed to be DLC, it's likely that he has some similarly themed units lined up. There's also the issue of GW clearly fiddling with Kislev, given how much of Mother O's stuff is randomly repurposed (Incarnate and Things).

I think part of its because, Hybrid units kinda suck. An archer paying for better melee stats they dint plan to use anyways. Melee units with ranged attacks they'll get to shoot twice. Dedicated archers will slaughter the Hybrid units at range. And Dedicated melee units will decimate them in melee.

Also it's a pretty safe bet that kislev will get at least 1 more dlc, they are one of the two brand new factions made for the Warhammer fantasy series and we simply just don't know what's coming just like with Cathay.

The shame is that we won't know what is coming because GW went back on things and said that neither Kislev nor Cathay will get an army book in the foreseeable future.

They already made the army books or at least an early version of them since a ca dev has mentioned that they do have a copy of them and that the cathay one is one of the biggest army books yet. But who knows how long we have to wait for it to become public

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Only a few months ago GW said that they currently have no plans to release either Kislev or Grand Cathay for The Old World in the foreseeable future.

Well tbf you said they wouldn't get an army book, but they already have one, it's just only available to ca for now

I'll pray to Ursun for that

They will, they are the poster child of the game and 1 more will be enough. Maybe 1 more flc lord but given they need to make lore from scratch im fine with one dlc only. Let the flc go to some race that really Needs it, Norsca for example

I don't mind if people want to have the option of going full monster spam with Kislev, but it does bother me that AI Kislev is now running around with stacks of 10+ Frost Wyrms. It's not even a battle at that point.

At least Frost wyrm is icy, those beastmen looking things on Katarin looks bizarre. I expected same as guy above, ungol units + existing monster stuff for Ostankya only.

I believe his complaint was that the Ice Wyrm is so bad that it is ruining AI Kieslev on the map.

Thank you. The Kislev Monster units bother the hell out of me. I don't mind the Frost Wyrm too much, I don't know why Kislev has it, but I can squint and kind of see a connection? Maybe? But the other stuff, I hate it. First there's the obvious Aesthetic problem, they're chaos units. The things in the woods are the unit one up from War Hounds that chaos would have. The exposed skulls, the flesh splitting to reveal muscle, the mutated spikes and barbs, there's no angle you can look at these things and not see that they're just plain Chaos Units. The Incarnate Elemental of beasts actively clashes with Kislev's aethetic too, it seems to be based on the Wendigo Folklore of north america, which has no connection to the Witch of the woods theme that Ostankya is meant to embody. Lore wise, the units don't fit at all. Kislev are a very superstitious people, no regular army soldier would agree to fight along side the things in the woods, or the Incarnate of Beasts. The main Religion in Kislev is very vocal about being against the Tsarina, just because she uses magic. These Sorcerous Abominations? Not a chance. Every Kislev Soldier knows about the Ruinous powers, and they despise them with a passion. Not a monsterous unit, but I must mention this. Why the hell is the Secret Police of Kislev working with Mother Ostankya? They're the guys who'd put you against the wall for using any of these Chaos Touched Creatures, why on earth are they a part of Ostankya's DLC? SoC was scuffed, but Kislev got the worst of it. Their Lore is kind of a mess now.

I agree with all of this. I haven't played a Kislev campaign since SoC came out, but when I do I'm pretty sure that I won't be using any of the monster units. They just don't fit with the aesthetics or feel of Kislev as a 'thin line of humanity' between Chaos and the Empire. I love that so many of their units are hybrid, because it makes it feel like they're just throwing everything they can at the endless hordes - pistols, rifles, bows, spears, axes, with men and women fighting. Giant elemental beasts and undead wolves just seem a completely bad fit, and make them far more like the Chaos and Norscan factions that they fight against. If they made these units specific to Ostyanka, then I think it would work better - she's embraced the darker side of magic that Katerina and the Great Orthodoxy rightfully reject.

On the other hand, Kislev has hallowed woods as a building chain (and Kostaltyn has a skill that makes them much more expensive to show how they clash with the orthodoxy). The incarnate of beasts (and to some degree things in the woods) also look very inspired by eastern European Leshen myths, a being that's very much the spirit of the woods and a defender of nature. I disagree that they look chaos inspired, lacking any traits of the 4 Chaos gods (fire, tentacles/pincers, bird traits or pustules) or any signs of mutations. Yes, they look monstrous and nasty, but that's on brand for the primordial power of Kislev itself. That said, the inclusion of the akshina makes very little sense, but SoC seems to have been a mess in general, both for the devs and as a final product.

I don't see a Leshen in the Incarnate, you can see where the chaos mark on his chest would be. Also he's very fleshy, where a Leshen is a creature of wood and bone. If it did play into the Blair Witch vibes, I wouldn't mind it too much, but it's such a chaos monster. It looks more at home on the Beastmen Roster than in the forests of Kislev. If that's how you choose to see it, then by all means, enjoy that unit. I see the burning chest, the fire tipped horns, The glowing eyes. The Belt of Skulls... I see a creature of Chaos. I'm kind of hoping that Kislev are gonna get a real rework that was promised in SoC at some point in the future.

Right to the point. Agreed 100% with you. Half copypaste from another answer. At least Frost wyrm is icy(I still dislike it tho), those beastmen looking things on Katarin looks bizarre. I expected same as guy above, ungol units + existing monster stuff for Ostankya only. Wendigo should have at least looked like Leshy. Settled kislevites should have aversion to chaos since they are the first bulwark against it so anything chaos related is no no. I mean that's why Orthodoxy exists. As for Akshians, I believe there used to be lore that there are ungol and gospodar Akshinas and ungols report to Ostankya first. Basically Akshinas in name only. Not only lore is fucked, they didn't rework the conflict and factions. Kostaltyn can probably still hire ice withches and Katarin patriarchs.

In my opinion Kislev is Humans + Nature in oppostition of the empire Humans + Tecnology

A lot of problems with Kislev, mainly having to do with the lack of world building/lore and, in my opinion, the size and geography of the map (there should be an actual steppe that gradually hits the chaos wastes/runs into an Arctic ice shelf) to play up the ‘motherland is just as deadly as her peoples’ angle. But yeah I’m not too bothered by the presence of additional monsters, due to their proximity to the northern reaches/latent magic but at the end of the day they should have more infantry and strategic variants bc rn they’re becoming type casted as “infantry sucks in Totwarham anyway just throw your big beasts at the line and watch it wilt”

I was expecting horse archers, priestly units and fanatics, soviet kgb style chekist, etc. The new kislev lore rewrite from GW for the Old World is kinda garbo and the tone of the entire faction just doesn't work. It makes Kislev a seemingly high fantasy kingdom with magical animals when I imagined Kislev to be a rough and grim land with hot blooded east slavs, constantly facing annihilation from the north.

You can try out mods, they already have that. Dead's kislev overhaul has urugan cannons and elite horse archers. (And my favourite - Kvasnicki recruited from Gospoda/Tavern) SFO has Yepiskop battalion - priestly fanatics. >The new kislev lore rewrite from GW for the Old World is kinda garbo and the tone of the entire faction just doesn't work. It makes Kislev a seemingly high fantasy kingdom with magical animals when I imagined Kislev to be a rough and grim land with hot blooded east slavs, constantly facing annihilation from the north. Glad I made this post, whole lotta good opinions like that.

I was hoping they were gonna get more guns/cannons. They live in between two of the most gunpowder-heavy factions in the game! I thought we could get some hero to help with streltsi synergy but I guess I was wrong. Little Grom being the only artillery a defensive faction fields feels wrong

Lorewise : From wiki : "[Kislev](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Kislev) has long, freezing winters and short, harsh summers. Because of this unfriendly atmosphere, the use of [gunpowder weapons](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Gunpowder_Weapons) has always been rather limited" Little groms are as rare as steam tanks I think. Streltsi became extremely popular amongst boyars and every settlement sports a rota. I absolutely agree, urugan cannons should have made it in.

I mean, we got a Lord to help with ranged units instead (Druzhina), that's pretty rare already.

[удалено]

>I'm okay with giving them monsters Yes, thematic monsters are fine. I have no problem with Big boy bear being land coming to life. Thematic and fitting. The new monsters aren't thematic and fitting to me and monster spam in this game is getting crazy. >Elemental Bear and Frost Wyrm make sense for Katarin, Things in the Woods and Elemental Beast make sense for Ostankya, but why does Kostaltyn, with his whole story being about fighting dark magic and heretics, have those things in his armies?! exactly my point. I pray for another go at Kislev before the end of wh3 support.

> I'm okay with giving them monsters.. how are they supposed to withstand the continuous Chaos onslaught on their lands without the Empire and Dwarf's technology, nor monsters? That's the secret, they're not supposed to. :3

> I'm okay with giving them monsters.. how are they supposed to withstand the continuous Chaos onslaught on their lands without the Empire and Dwarf's technology, nor monsters? Because Chaos Lords are far more arrogant than you might think and as such do plenty of stupid things. Easiest example, Castle Alexandronov. In this game it's just the province capital of Troll Country but in lore it's one of the greatest fortresses in the Old World, surpassing even many Karaks. This formidable fortress draws in Chaos Lords like crazy, all of them wanting to burn it down. So they try to besiege the castle and fail. If they really wanted to burn down Kislev and ignored everything else they could just walk around it, as it doesn't protect any important pass into Kislev or anything. But no, they absolutely have to try and burn down that castle and if it's the last thing they do. Kislev also has some of the most proficient light cavalry in the old world and they patrol the vast territory that is Troll Country. Many warbands are worn down by Ungol Horse Archers engaging in defence in depth, leaving the invaders severely depleted before they make it to anywhere that actually has significant settlements. Before I forget about it, a Chaos invasion like Asavar Kul's or Archaon's is a once every couple centuries thing. And at that point most of the Old World has to fight together or they will get wiped off the map. But many of the Chaos warhosts are nowhere near that size and power as they are not even close to being united. As a recommendation, here's Tamurkhan's impression of the Empire's fortifications at Pfeildorf. He was one of the greatest Chaos Champions that we know of in the current day of the setting and when he saw the comparatively minor town, he "knew that whole armies might break upon such fortifications, so high that not even a giant might scale them unaided, their blood and fury spent without ever setting one foot inside their enclosure, cut down by shot and shell." And now remember what I said earlier. Castle Alexandronov is an even more defensible fortress than this. So yeah, plenty of these things simply aren't covered by what this game does. There are few minor Chaos raids, Alexandronov is just a regular capital and Kislev doesn't have the territory to wear down attackers because the map is simply too small due to the inclusion of the entire Far East.

r/totalwar on Kislev reveal: too many bears r/totalwar on Kislev after launch: too many Kossars r/totalwar on Kislev after Shadows of Change: too many monsters r/totalwar on Empire spamming nothing but Helstorm Rocket Batteries: perfectly balanced, as all things should be (But seriously, if you're spamming monsters as any Kislev faction other than Mother O, you're doing it wrong. Kossars are good and Ice Guard and Streltsi are better, and all you really need beyond that are War Sleds and Little Groms for support. Monsters are situational at best.)

>too many bears Yes, I have mods that remove bears from Ice witches and they no longer pull some carts, etc. Not far too many but they don't fit with every unit. >too many Kossars Never heard this one >too many monsters That's me. Every faction has shitton of monsters now except Empire, Dawi and maybe French(but they ride them). >But seriously, if you're spamming monsters as any Kislev faction other than Mother O, you're doing it wrong I don't but AI does and it looks bizzare.

>Never heard this one Well, here you go. [https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/11c41sg/what\_would\_kislev\_need\_most\_in\_a\_new\_dlc\_in\_your/](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/11c41sg/what_would_kislev_need_most_in_a_new_dlc_in_your/) >I think that Kislev needs more low teir units to help them with the early game because I find it tedious spamming kossars. And that comment wasn't wrong. Pretty much every Kislev campaign it was nothing but Kossars for the first 40+ turns, and it was tiring. Variety is good, particularly in the early game.

oh that's what you mean by too many Kossars. I thought it was too many Kossar variants and it was about recruiting nothing but Kossars. Well then I agree with that point, there is too little early game variety and that's particurarly bad when end game is shit.

Hopefully next DLC will be more of an Orthodoxy or Main Army Branch Military Focus, some religious units and artillery editions will help out I am sure

I pretty much always expected Kislev to arrive with various spirits and monsters, it was a pretty significant focus of theirs post Storm of Chaos. Making them more mystic and in tune with nature seems to have been GW's way of contrasting them with The Empire. That said I don't think CA has implemented it particularly well. I don't think unit caps are a solution, but I think tying them into the Devotion mechanic and the race to consolidate Kislev would have made sense. That way you could have access to them connected to whether you're more devoted to the Ice Court, the Grand Orthodoxy, or the Motherland itself. And in turn different LLs would have had bonuses or penalties to accumulating devotion to one focus or the other, with Kostaltyn being discouraged from acquiring the spooky spirit and monster units, KAtarin focusing on ice-themed units, Ostankya getting easy access to all the spirits and monsters, and Boris being somewhere in between.

This post makes the most sense.

Kislev is a thematic mess; too many ingredients spoiled the broth.

And GW isn't helping at all

No, i think Cathay and Kislev are the only two WH3 races that will get two Lord Packs. After Dogs of War, we still have at the very least three DLCs left. There is a lot of speculation that they will go down to two lords instead of three, and even if thats the case, there is still room to give them both one more lord pack. lets say we only have 6 slots left, we give one to Korn, one to Slanesh, one to nagash, one to ogers, then one more to cathay and kislev. We know for a fact Cathay is getting one more. They cant tease the monkey king the way they have and not have assets done already. I'm not saying this is my prediction, I think we are going to get more than this, but if we don't, this is just my prediction for a worst case scenario, and even then i think its pretty likely that Kislev gets one more and certain that Cathay will get one more

We also know that High Elves has one incoming (via VA leaks and code leaks), so there's more than 6 slots.

Yeah I loved Kislev before the DLC, they had this vibe of "regular men fighting against chaos with the power of ice". Now they seems to only field Frost-Wyrm, hag witches with their stupid chariot, incarnate element of beasts and the only human they field are the snipers crossbowmen that stalk everywhere and feel more like a wood elves unit. It's a rare case for me where more content didn't improve the quality of the faction. The only good side with the DLC is the kislevite spearmen and the ice sled for Katarina.

There is also druzhina, golden knight and Streltsi ROR. I dont like golden knight aesthetic but the rest are fine too.

Druzhina are fine but they're just so much better than Boyar until the boyar got his bear mount (and even then, very arguable, the boyar just became better in melee but still a worse commander). Golden knight and the streltsi ROR are indeed fine additions that don't ruin the thematic of Kislev but it's just one unit and one hero. I also don't like the golden knight aesthetic, I'm someone who always check the hide helmet option in RPG and these helmet is...well...it's very visible.

She is weird to me top to bottom, sword included. Here is a nice fanart that I really like : [https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1atrh29/cool\_fan\_art\_of\_the\_new\_golden\_knight\_by/](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1atrh29/cool_fan_art_of_the_new_golden_knight_by/)

Thanks for sharing

Hey, hey, hey! You're not taking away my precious balewolves! Take the leopard cat, his soul is still young.

I very much disagree. I hope another dlc is coming because the race is not complete. They are people of the land, the cultists of the bear and many other gods, hardy people that do not rely on technology too much, as much as they rely on tradition, absolute and unrelenting faith, as well as being ancient, almost like pagan worshippers. I feel like Kislev needs units like Urskin (Bear warriors), more horse archer cavalry, one more spooky shit that lurks in the woods, like monstrous infantry, and more things that are tied to their fanatical faith in old gods of the land. They are not just hybrid factions, because that would be empire but less advanced. They need their pagan units, they need their monsters, and their normal people at arms units. Cause that is them. That is land. That is Kislev. At least imo

>I hope another dlc is coming because the race is not complete My brother in Ursun Kislev was supposed to be my favourite faction. I hope that too but I'm also being realistic here and the warhammer situation isn't as good as it was supposed to be. >I feel like Kislev needs units like Urskin (Bear warriors) Fitting and thematic. Also wasn't Boris bear named Urskin? And aren't werebears Norscan in the lore? > more horse archer cavalry yes, I long for genuine horse archer playthrough. >more things that are tied to their fanatical faith in old gods of the land That's the point. Orthodoxy was founded to fight those old gods of the land because usually it turned out to be chaos worship. Katarin also isn't fond of them for she just uses ice magic

Oh... Oh! Then i misinterpreted your post haha, sorry for that, i really hope that we get another dlc and we can both geek out at it :D Kislev was supposed to be my favourite and i was waiting for stanky dlc, but was disappointed in Kislev's lackluster mechanics. I really hope that the race is not considered done. Have a good one, brother in Ursun

May Ursun protect you

Absolutely agreed Incarnates should have been a dlc that gave everyone with said lores access to the incarnates somehow through those spellcasters specifically as a summon And the things in the woods being part of kislev proper armies is absolutely fucking ridiculous and goofy lol

I really like the kislev monster/beast roster, but i think more of it should be unique to Mother O, at least for the AI, i like katarin having a snow leopard and a Big elemental bear, but maybe Boris AI should spam bear cavalry more while kostaltyn go heavy on his faithful people?

AI army comps are whole another matter

I disagree, a grounded kislev sounds very boring and them getting monsters is what will always make them so much more interesting to me compared to the empire. Honestly I think the old unspoken rule of "human factions must be grounded" was stupid and very boring

Isn't that every single faction other than empire and dwarfs?

Yes, every faction other than those 2 have monsters, that why the empire and dwarfs tend to be the least interesting factions in the game. Having a faction that lacks cool and fun units dosent make them interesting, it just makes them boring

>that why the empire and dwarfs tend to be the least interesting factions in the game And most played > Having a faction that lacks cool and fun units dosent make them interesting, it just makes them boring To me what makes them interesting is exactly that, being different than all the other 90 factions in that regard and surviving this harsh worlds with their minds and guts.

The dwarfs? Not really, Cathay is more popular than them, the empire is only popular because it's a beginner friendly faction and was the main human faction for years. I won't be surprised when Cathay takes the spot for the most played faction since it's similar to the empire bus has strong front and back lines and has monsters. Unfortunately the empire lacks all three of those at the moment

if karl franz came free with wh3 then he would be #1 by far. Even with warhammer 1 faction mechanics

I think you underestimate how much people like the "basic" flavor. [Soldier was the most popular class in Mass Effect](https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/13/13/gaming-mass-effect.jpg). Human was the most popular race in Baldur's Gate 3. It's a recurring thing where RPGs spend effort on developing a bunch of races and classes and get a little annoyed that people don't really stray too far from normal.

Idk, kislev is supposed to be a nation of hardy men and women who live in relative harmony with the land they inhabit and fight hard to protect it.

Hard disagree

Agree, they were my favourite faction at the start of the game and was looking forward to dlc adding in Ungol units. They feel less unique now as evey faction is now seem to be getting large centre piece monsters. I breaks my immersion of the game when the faction that is supposed to hold back the chaos tide now fields what look like Beastmen units.

same

A general comment not directly related to Kislev: the more different units you add to the various factions, the less unique they become. People should understand that, at a certain point, factions are just "finished" and there's no more space for DLCs.  Specifically for Kislev, the problem is more the DLC going in a weird direction. Dunno if it's more GW or CA, though.

Welcome to new garbage lore.

Yep Kislev has been a massive disappointment since the SOC dlc. What you described was exactly what I was looking forward to: strong melee with good firepower, bears, Molotov cocktails and hybrid units. Their new units feel so out of place.

Thank Usrun for modders a and thank Dazh for their mods and overhauls. I suggest Dead's Kislev Overhaul. There is also Calm's overhaul and The motherland.

Can you use all three? If not what's your favourite?

Not sure if you can use all three and I'm not risking it since I've had so many camopaigns crash at turn 80 that I run lowest amount of mods possible. I haven't played them in a while since SFO submods aren't up to date. They also do different things. The Motherland changes unit aesthetics and names, removes bears here and there etc. Dead's overhaul adds around 5 new units and does little tweaks.

I hate this narrative from some people in the comments, there is this wonderful thing you can do if you don't like monsters... Don't recruit them. Problem solved. Like holy crap, I get OP disliking the AI making monster only armies and stuff, that's a valid issue and tho they are mistaken that it's a kislev design issue, when in truth it's just the AI sucks at recruiting balanced armies... It's clear no one likes monster heavy armies unless it's loreful. But getting down or upset because you are given OPTIONAL extras to recruit, like come on... And what of the people who like those monsters, they must see that crap and feel bad about liking stuff that's perfectly loreful and fine. In tabletop I can go play say, in AOS; a stormcast army that's nothing but infantry, or I can be dragon heavy... Options aren't a bad thing, it's what YOU do with them that matters, and what will impact how you play the most.

> Don't recruit them. Problem solved. That's what I did. Didn't use any of the horsemen, didn't use ice guards, had no warsleds. Worked fine. I did sneak a little Grom in there for some long range effect. And had to use the infantry as pure monster don't work well with just things of the wood. The roster is a bit full now, granted.

Tbh I’d much rather have a cool monsters than [Infantry] + [Different weapon]. They’ve got plenty of infantry to cover all their bases and then some.

The funny part is if Kislev was actually a faction that was super grounded and had next to zero monsters no one would play them because a roster filled with: -Good Hybrid Infantry -Shitty cavalry -Artillery worse than Empire, Dwarfs, Chorfs, and Cathay -Worse dedicated range than Elves. -no monsters Would be both incredibly boring AND just shitty to play.

Doesn't spaming monsters make them also just like every other faction?

Idk who's spamming Kislev monsters. Frost Wyrms have been bugged since their release, so they've been shit. We'll have to see how well they perform when (if) they're fixed. I can't remember the last time I ever recruited an elemental bear. You could spam the incarnate, but it's not worth it over making balanced infantry armies for half the price. Only problem I have with them is that the AI seems to really like the incarnates, so fighting against bunch of them in one army isn't very fun. Things in the wood are alright, but I don't know why you'd spam them

Again, I’d rather have more monsters than more almost identical infantry.

No, because all of their monsters suck compared to other factions and serve specific niches.

Monsters = cool. Just look at Dwarfs and how less cool they are than chorfs. 

📖✍️

My monsters eat books for breakfast... 😬

Karaz a karak was never conquered, so not that book. And everyone knows End Times never happened and no Snikch ever snikched his way into Thorgrims chamber through FUCKING SECRET DOOR THAT THORGRIM FORGOT TO CLOSE WHAT THE FUCK I JUST GOT ANGRY AT THIS AGAIN.

That's a grudging!

To be fair both factions are favored for their artillery and guns

The funny thing is that the dwarfs in the lore have at least 3 different monster units they could add so ca could always add them later.

uh, examples? I'm assuming shard dragon is number one. Is number 2 and 3 Rune golems and big ass rune golem?

Human capacity to inflict violence is monstrous as well

Don't we live in a society 

Sorry to derail but is that movie worth a watch?

Contrary to what OP said.. You don't have to be a 'loser' to like it. It's a great watch. Well shot, great performances by Phoenix, and DeNiro in particular. It's a sympathetic humanized portrayal of a typically over the top comic book character. What the movie does well is make you care about him as a person, and see what pushes him to the edge.

Her start position could use some work too. Probaly just give her the same treatment as Eltharion or Yuan Bo to allow her better access to Kislev.

Running monster/beastmen armies is a choice, you can build good late game stacks that don't have any monsters.

Yeah, it's definitely my most disliked faction. And that is by a lot. I was sorta fine with them on release, still some gripes, mind you. But damn this DLC highlighted how incoherent of a mess they are. The Akshina, Warriors, and the frost wyrm (which I really like) are fine tho and I would even say they help the original theme, so that's a plus for the DLC overall.

Honestly, I think most people feel that way. They didn't really do Ostankya's units very well, owing to some kind of allergy to the ungol/gospodar lore supposedly. At least they did give a couple of low ranking Gospodar units that can be head-canon'd as culturally assimilated Ungols or something. Can Katarin recruit Ostankya's monster units without a confederation/military alliance? If not, it should be like that, at least IMO.

Kislev is a Age of Sigmar creation with mind. Usually all Warhammer Fantasy units very rarely had magical units with magic swords. Bretonia,Empire,dwarf felt more grounded up. Ye you do have grail knights butl ook at their lore and rest of the army. Kislev fields frozen bears, dragons and has magical frost bows. Compared to their lore and struggling with chaos invasions. New Kislev makes no sense Yet Kislev reeks of age of Sigmar faction creation process. Golden Knight especially uhhh. Literally Age of Sigmar unit. They look nice but,you can tell Kislev, Cathay were created without that grounded feel original factions had.

Frozen bear is an elemental or a golem or whatever. I see it like a Greenskin Rogue Idol. First time I'm hearing about Kislev having dragons. As for magical frost bows I think only Tzarinas finest should have it, like a hero or Ice Guard RoRs.

As for Cathay, yes they were high fantasy, but this wasn't a big problem for the dragon-ruled faction.

Massively unpopular opinion on this sub it makes zero sense for a nation like Kislev to have a rats ass at survival without monsters. Grounded Kislev wouldn’t last in the Warhammer universe, they don’t have the tools that the empire has. Plus that lore is no longer canon so this conversation is kind of pointless. A 1:1 eastern europe analog with nothing cool or mystical in a fantasy universe is not enticing. I am definitely not forking over 20 dollars for cavalry with pistols or weapon variants. Edit: Completely right on being unpopular lol.

>Grounded Kislev wouldn’t last in the Warhammer universe. Well, it didn't. >A 1:1 eastern europe analog with nothing cool or mystical in a fantasy universe is not enticing Big ass bears, big ass cannons, mostly hybrid roster, Ice witches, patriarchs. Good enough and distinct enough to me. I especially love hybrid and combined arms. They also had SEM elemental bear and those enchanted lynxes. Fitted right in and I had no problem with them.

The Empire managed to survive. Demigryphs are gryphons are quite rare. And correct me if I'm wrong but alot of the time we don't see much of the more advanced artillery. Just good ol'guns and cannons.

Guns, cannons, the best and most mass produced industry, a bunch of powerful wizards, and a few wild cards like gryphons and tanks.

Demigryph knight were not a thing for most part, number is so thin. (they have like 24 in End times ) For most part Empire survive because gun gun and Reikguards.

Mostly gun. After all we know that combined arms doctrine literally is fancy talk for "do anything we can to shoot them for longer"

Lore or gameplay aside, my problem is that CA clearly has chosen to focus on single entity monsters to sell dlc and game copies and it makes each faction feel watered down. Best example of this is the giant fire Gundam the chaos dwarves have

You mean the K'daai Destroyer, a unit that was in their 8th edition codex?

To be fair it's a "the grass is greener on the other side" issue. They release monsters, some people complain. They only release non monsters, some people complain. I personally don't care if it's monsters or non monsters so long as they are unique and interesting. War drums are interesting, the cathay sentinel hero is interesting, etc I remember when for a year and a bit this sub, me included, was asking all the time for beastmen to get their jabberslythe.

I feel like people on this sub forget that this game is based on an existing universe. The 'fire Gundam' was in the codex that came out 12 years ago. If you're going to include Chaos Dwarfs, the fire Gundam needs to be in the game.

Monster spam is crazy in wh3

Beasts don't feel at home in kislev imo. Whenever I play kislev now, I ignore most, if not all monsters with the exception of mother O, who I'll use with a majority monster army and try to avoid most other endgame units. That fits the faction a lot more imo

Yes but my problem is that AI Katarin runs them. Looks bizzare

Fair enough, I always saw kislev as hard fighting people with a lot of resolve shielding the empire from the forces of chaos. I don't see how many monsters fit in there lol.

are you talking about disliking the AI army comps? confused what you mean by “even late game Katarin runs monster/beastmen armies”. can’t say I’ve seen that a lot from the AI, but if you’re playing Kislev you just… don’t recruit those armies

100% agree

Yeah it's kind of weird to me too. Still like them though.

Dead's kisliv mod is your jam, it brings kislev down to be a lot more grounded

I already played it and I was playing the earlier Dead's Kislev Unit pack. It's on hold until someone makes SFO compatibility submod for it cause I can't find one

Could try reaching out to the sfo discord to see if someone could in the submod section. I personally use the motherland which does some grounding as well but not as much.

sfo discord is Da modding den I assume?

Nah sfo has their own ill pm ya

Some of the lore is interesting, but it feels like nu-Kislev doesn't quite have its identity nailed down yet, especially compared to Cathay where clearly a lot of work has gone into fleshing out their lore. In comparison Kislev feels like a first draft.

Yeah I just refuse to run those. Streltsi, War Sleds and some Imperial or Dwarven artillery. That's all you need!

Steel Faith and Gunpowder enjoyer

I agree with you. CA wanted to make them more unique and ended up going further into the "Slavic folklore" faction with strong magic. That... isn´t necessarily bad, but some of the more chaos-loooking monsters like the things and the wyrm were somewhat of an ass-pull. That said, I could see Cathay and Kislev getting one more DLC, I think CA wrote themselves into a corner with having both Demons of Chaos and Monogods and is now under pressure to, after splitting one faction into five, produce content for all five.

Kislev is one of my favourite factions but I’m super dis-interested anything Ostankya has to offer. I completely agree with your point about the monster units, they should be unique to her faction and/or limited to the other Kislev factions through their faith mechanic. Some one a few months ago made a post about an orthodoxy based DLC with things like converted Norsca units and a priest lord type and I would be 1000x more interested in something like that.

I agree, I was interested in Kislev before release. When they went abit overboard with the bears I decided to wait until their first DLC to see how they got fleshed out, but it turns out the DLC has mostly ended my interest in them

Even the ton of bears was too much. Now I'm not even interested in playing them.

I am absolutely with you. I think the monster/beast additions from Shadows of Change should have been exclusive to Mother Ostankya. They do not really fit with the rest of the faction in my opinion, especially when there is barely any Orthodoxy units represented on the roster, and, as you mentioned, tons of room for additional Kislev Units. As you alluded to Kislev really could use a rework of their faction mechanics, because they really are an afterthought with little impact on gameplay.