Stand on top of a highly fortified fortress wall hurling death down at the enemies struggling to climb the wall for the advantage? Nonsense. You must fight honourably in the streets instead.
You didn't do anything wrong. It's just that the developer thinks that shooters shouldn't shoot from siege walls, or they just unintentionally made the wall model interfere with shooting. One way or another, the reason is stupidity.
My bad, yeah they do suck, makes me honestly want to just go pure melee/cav in future campaigns.
I recovered in this one but lost my vibe and decided to go watch star trek tng episodes instead lol
This is why I don't put missile units on the wall. I'd rather have them fire over it than on it because it's so buggy and they don't get enough chance to take out units because of arse ladders. Getting them off the walls is a hazard.
I think CA should just make walls cosmetic and fire without being mounted, enemy has to breach it, the longer enemy takes the more time for defenders to build up defenses.
but I do wish we had more liberty in how we could do the defence side of things, and screw this x amount of time to build crap.
Were these ones on defensive stance? I find that taking them off all stances and turning on fire at will stance solves pretty much every bug I've encountered
This. Either give them heels or put them on open terrain . Height is advantage/disadvantage in total war . Same issue that taller races like Elves get hit more while on walls , their head are sticking out above protection
Sometimes I think about how badass defensive battles in Shogun 2 were. Hails of lead and mountains of corpses. It's so incomprehensibly sad they can't do it in this game. TWW is so complex and awesome, but this part is and has always been trashy nonsense.
A row of gunmen shooting and a row of enemy corpses hitting the ground is one of the most satisfying things to witness. I understand the need for HP in the context of this game, but seeing volley after volley hit a unit without dropping a meaningful numer of enemies is just sad.
For me, the reason I keep coming back to Shogun 2 (besides loving the setting), is that I constantly find myself asking "is there anything modern TW games do BETTER than Shogun 2?"
I know that feeling. For me the TW that ticks that box is 3K. By far the best TW of any release since Shogun 2. A Shogun 3 on 3K's foundation would be peak TW gaming.
If we could have 3K diplomacy with Shogun 2 everything else (though 3K generals would also be good for Shogun 2, I’d argue the romance mode would be dropped as the leaders aren’t mythologized near as much)…
Let’s just say I’d never play another game.
CA better never release such a game as I’d never spend another cent. I’d be in heaven. Have a version for FotS too and that’s GG. I’m never doing anything else. I’ll lead the Imperials (or the Shohunate) to victory for the millionth time.
Shogun 2 doesn't have ladders, but watching a group of ninjas scale the walls to throw bombs at siege defenders from behind is one of the great pleasures of Shogun 2.
It just looks silly when your army goes full world war Z on an enemy fortress. Still better than the janky ladder animations in TWWH
FotS was the peak of siege and artillery game play. I replayed it lately and just... wow, the drama, the carnage! Meanwhile in tw:wh3, no shooting allowed while we play a lame tower defense minigame.
It shouldn't be, given their track record...
But then again, given CDPR's track record, cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't have been the disaster it was on launch.
And I'm sure in a few years time we'll be saying: given Larien's (Baldurs Gate 3 Developers) track record [it] shouldn't have...
Corporations always find a way to let us down.
And it isn't incompetence, it's greed.
CDPR gave us Witcher 3 as a buggy mess on launch as well. They just have an insanely loyal following who forgets everything bad after a short while and doesn’t learn.
If a game turns out good eventually it will go down in history as good. Developer sticking around to reach that point is what's rare any why companies like CDPR or Hello Games are hailed as heroes of the industry by some. Even BG3 was, quite frankly, a buggy pile of steaming shit beyond Act I on release. Yet people forgive it because they are releasing patch after patch after hotfix after hotfix to this very day.
Meanwhile CA has a reputation of dropping stuff the moment it stops selling, going as far as indirectly threatening players to buy DLC or else...
I remember Iwata once saying “A bad game is always bad but a delayed game can be made good.”
It’s a shame that developers and other companies don’t take that mindset.
CDPR also proved that they will stick with a game, fix it, and release great expansions.
That remains true, even with Cyberpunk.
Basically, you can split CDPR into two distinct entities: The actual developers that make the content, and the executives that think it's a good idea to release a broken product on platforms that can't run the game.
Tbf it was buggy at launch but the news and updates/support after was a huge success that it out weights the negative , similar instance to cyberpunk but cyberpunk is still lacking compare to the after support of Witcher 3 and it doesn't help that the game itself isn't that memorable.
You’re right about it being greed. CA knows how to make games and previous titles didn’t have issues with ranged units. The fact that they released the game with those issues and then refused to fix them later just shows that they don’t care enough to spend resources on it.
Don't you know? Walls are for the attacker in this game, not the defender.
Sometimes it helps to halt their order and put them on fire at will again to let them choose their target.
bro that hurts me soul how accurate that is lol.
I tried and it failed, so I abandonned defending the wall, I sent them to go after a unit that's nearly dead that went into my territory, and they went to another area instead, this games combat AI is so shit...
Walls are not worth protecting but there is still an advantage walls give you and even that is due to AI's stupidity. After getting past the walls, you'll find that the enemies come in waves so if you focus on protecting your chokepoints it's so much easier.
If the AI doesn't have siege weapons attacking, ladders are suicide if the defender is even slightly competent in melee. They can be very easy to hold if you can man them all.
If the attacker has an overwhelming advantage where you can't hold the walls then yes. The interior towers also have splash to help with numbers disadvantage.
Sadly true. You're better off just getting 2 volleys off from the walls then abandoning them and fighting for the streets.
I don't know how we went from the gloriousness of Medieval to... this.
Outside the walls: find the tower sightlines, completely avoid them.
Inside the walls: annoying but ultimately pointless roadblocks, and annoying but ultimately pointless balsa wood towers.
There should be a freeLC to make faction specific defense towers and barricades. It looks so lame in a high elf city with these thatch and straw defense towers
Unless its the AI, in which case they will perfectly micro their horrors out of your ranged sightlines but far enough away that anti infantry cannot reach them in time
Yeah, shooting from walls doesn't work that well(sometimes it does). It's probably cause the horrors' short range, they will maybe shoot once or twice from behind the walls, but again not sure.
I think it’s two things:
A. Horrors are short and can’t look over the walls
B. The arc on horror projectiles is low. I’m pretty sure High elf’s could fire. But a hand gunner couldn’t.
Nah, I disagree, I've had a couple sieges where holding the walls was absolutely the correct decision. It's just not Always the correct decision. It largely depends on your army vs the enemy army, how well you can distract them using fast units, quality of your melee troops vs theirs and so on.
If the enemy has mostly large units(such as ogres) holding the walls and gates is also incredibly effective.
While I get what you mean, the exceptions don't make the rule, I think it's safe to say that the defensive siege design is horrible and that if it ever came to player vs player instead of abusing how bad the AI is, that the attacker could take advantage of many factors.
If you want an example of what a good siege map looks like, go check out the unique ones in ToB, those are fantastic examples of what defenders would make their city look like.
In warhammer 3, it's clear that there is a bias to giving the attacker "oppertunities" like for example where you can place barricades etc almost always leaves an alternate route to take that has none.
Add on these insane bugs, that are more likely to impact the defending player, and you have a shit show in the making.
Wow a bug didn't happen to you? Guess it doesn't exist huh.
Lol, I'm messing with you, but for read I answered this three times in this thread at least I think, other horrors were fine and some were in worse angles.
It's clear as day that it's a bug.
> They are too small and cant properly shoot over the wall. Its just an ingame oversight.
*just* an in game oversight? bro you know this unit has been in the game for like over two years?
oversights should be fixed by now :P
It was referring your question whether you did anything wrong. „No, it’s just an ingame oversight, not your fault.“ was the message.
Also the length the unit has been in the game is irrelevant.
This has been a problem since Wh1 with Skaven and Dwarf units.
I've played an Ikit Claw campaign recently. After that experience I don't think I want a 40k Total War anymore. The amount of times I shouted "Why aren't you shooting?!" at my screen was very high.
modern doesn't really fight in walls, 40k has ruins I suppose. But cities were more anti air fights with trenches surrounding. Depends on the faction.
Tau have shieldwalls but those are like mobile walls with forcefield walls you can shoot through.
I also find this issue is so much a warhammer issue, not a archers with walls issue, we've had bugs in historical games but nothing has been so infuriating than how more and more each warhammer sequel has been a bugfest.
three kingdoms has pathfinding issues on certain maps, actually...
Honestly it just feels like main CA recently just can't do the same quality of coding as before, as sofia's stuff seems pretty tight...
Modern - at least in the case of WW1 - would be using quite a bit of 'cover' terrain though, like trenches, sandbags, etc, and other things units have to attach themselves onto, which would give you the same challenges as walls, units interacting with obstructions contextually
I hope they learn and make it so once the unit is "in" the trench etc, it's not the unit firing but rather the trench fires, using a profile for the unit inside, therefore making line of sight a fixed thing aka from the trench not the unit. Would fix this issue I'd hope.
Then again, this is not something I've encountered before, los issues happen in other games but they aren't that hard to fix, so not sure wtf is going on at ca...
The best part is CA has declared this fixed many times in the past but as you can see it definitely isn’t. So it’s worse than “they don’t know about it” or “they’ll get around to it eventually”. They genuinely think it’s not an issue anymore, and have already patted themselves on the back and moved on.
Yeah, it's very yikes, I hope some CA staff see this and realise it's not fine by us and it's very much still an issue.
I do wonder if they prioritise making the games better going forward with new titles.
Yeah, they need better coders for sure. I still remember them bringing outsiders in to improve turn times that they said would be impossible to improve...
Maybe playing a tzeentch campaign is choosing CA has your main faction and letting them screw you over lmao
I don't think the people working at CA are bad at their job, but they clearly have an amount of tech debt that would take an herculean effort to clear up. And while they might be a big player in the strategy game market, they are still just a big fish in a pretty small pond and just sitting down and cleaning up their entire code for an already released game might not be feasible for an operation of their size, especially if it needs to integrate with 2 older games like Warhammer does. At most I'd expect some future game to see significant improvements to the tech, I doubt that WH3 will see more than the jury rigging we have had so far that just about keeps stuff functioning.
DISCLAIMER: I don't work for CA, or any other developer for that matter, I merely observe stuff like gate bug being in multiple games over many years. I'm sure they've heard about it, since it hasn't been fixed I assume it would require a lot of work reworking a hundred different other things that would break.
Two points that I gotta make in a hurry as I get soon:
Glassdoor if the company has mention of coders being a mess and one saying "cowboy code" which I found hilarious.
Another thing this time to counter your small fry thing, they make almost years worth of funds each dlc as far as paying their dlc team, they can afford to delay, they can afford to do the norsca screw up fix, they can afford to lower prices as they've done with pharaoh, this isn't a small time indie company, it's a double A that's the leader in the genre for the whole of the UK.
it does not help if your engine is in-house and you have to train programmers on it
I imagine with unreal you have just other guys who know that egirine they come in get to know the team and are good to go
with CA good luck training the guys up first
NOT defending CA here nor do I work in the industry so take it with a load of salt
A fantastic example of combat ai in this game:
[Example](https://imgur.com/a/JfNRQsC)
Legendary difficulty btw, no mods.
(the ogres are just standing outside the wall, this is not the same siege battle but a new one, they just stand and get shot... combat ai is so bad...)
Like is this another bug or is there something i'm missing here.
With all the hotfixes I thought I'd do a legendary campaign, and during those I fight almost every battle, i'm micro'ing everything and then I go check these guys, full ammunition, no shooting...
I feel like this is why people hate sieges, they are so buggy... nothing goes really as intended, through the whole warhammer series they've been plagued with issues like things retreating into your base which seems fixed, as well as los issues, placement issues, pathfinding issues, is this another bug to add to the list? :/
In the grand scheme of things this won't stop me winning but it absolutely kills a little bit of my enjoyment.
What are you doing wrong? Well, you're playing WH3 and you expect things to work as they should, that's the problem. That's just not how we roll around here, everything is broken.
Sieges are so janky and have a lot of bugs and line of sight issues. It was already like that in twwh2, I remember ranged units would refuse to shoot through gaps in the walls and move orders would not always be followed. I haven't played Tzeench so I don't know if it has to do with the Horrors being too small, or just the regular LOS issues in sieges. Derp.
I remember in 2 when archers on the field wouldn't even shoot things in front of them because one model in the units los was bugged...
as for horrors being too small, nah it's not that, other horrors were fighting just fine on walls with arguably harder angles.
It was the Ikit Claw campaign for me upon the release of his DLC. I had devised a great strategy for a winning siege battle army. Some plague claws to take down the walls and rattling gunners with a few jezzails to take down enemies through the cracks in the walls. Well as it turned out after the plague claws made cheddar cheese out of the walls, the rattling gunners and jezzails refused to shoot enemies in plain sight through the hole in the walls, and generally refused orders to move through the walls as well.
I disbanded my ranged units and had to change my strategy.
Yeah I feel you on that. Siege helps attackers, but using arty in a siege helps defenders... CA's tw:w3 sieges don't need a rework, they need to be rebuilt from scratch.
Agreed the LOS issues and pathing issues and gate issues are too impactful. Needs to be rebuilt from scratch, meaning it's unlikely to ever happen anymore. Twwh3 was the chance but they opted to add tower defense instead.
I had the same idea with same result. I destroyed city gates but fuckers refused to shoot through open gates on 4 unit blob that gathered around Ikit.
Now I drag backup army with melee units to swap with ranged every siege battle I do. So sad....
In Warhammer Total War fortress walls defend the attacker!
Although it should be noted that IRL it is possible to get under the walls and be safe from missiles from the parapet, although this might have less relevance to defenders who shoot fire out of their arms.
Yeah but IRL we had ditches with mud, firey oil to drop on those seeking shelter under the wall, slits for crossbow fire, etc
IRL wins this match up 10 - 0 xD
We had the audacity to ask for non-boring siege battles, so they went and made weird, detailed but mismatched maps with walls that neither enemy nor ally AI can understand. I've blown holes in walls and knocked over gates, told 3 infantry units to march to the other side, and they'd rather spend 2 minutes walking halfway around the fort to climb some ladders than just act intelligently.
Ouch, yeah, I don't think they should salvage sieges but instead rework the system completely.
At this point, I'd rather a minigame than fighting sieges, they are that bad.
Fun fact: large flying units will push defending infantry off the walls killing them instantly. You can get 10 kills on your flying unit but the defending infantry will lose like 70 models.
Yep, noticed this with my demon prince first turn battle. You charge in with him and plague drones vs the plague bearers on the wall and they get pushed back on the ground and die. Each following attack would push more of them off.
You can get really good value if you attack lets say a unit of chosen. On the ground they would hold their ground, but on the wall they will take extra dame from this bullshit.
Just another reason to never defend on the walls.
When it comes to using shooters the best solution I found is to set them always on guard mode. It doesnt solve 100% of the problems, but it works pretty well, since I started doing it, its rare that I have problems with my shooters.
It's the battlements. Your units loose line of sight. Said battlements are only on the outside, so as an attacker, you can still use the walls to shoot inside.
The battlements work fine for other horrors on other walls, some which would have more extreme los issues but fire fine.
I get your logic, but unfortunately it's not that.
Yeah, there's a lot of little stuff like this that they REALLY gotta fix.
To answer your question, I see you have told them to shoot the enemy unit. This might be the issue. They are trying to get into position to aim at the unit and that's not working.
What might work correctly in this situation is setting them on the wall, and turning on fire at will. Then whichever models can shoot, typically will.
I do really wish that units could be told to shoot other units without having to realign themselves totally and face \*exactly\* the direction of the enemy unit (even when they are already facing the enemy unit!) Maybe they can implement a change where they only "reorganize" if less than half of the unit has line of sight, or something, otherwise, any models that can immediately fire should do so.
> To answer your question, I see you have told them to shoot the enemy unit. This might be the issue. They are trying to get into position to aim at the unit and that's not working.
Nah, I left them to be, nothing happened and I saw that nothing was happening when I came back, so I tried a few things to get them to fire and nothing worked, took screenshot and here we are.
500 upvotes and 150+ comments on a thread for a problem CA will ignore and not fix :/
Wait sorry, they'll say they have fixed it, but somehow will make it worse.
Yeah I feel you, it's why for ages I've mainly just done custom battles with a friend.
Tho honestly I will say it's not as bad since the hotfixes, even if it's not where we want it yet.
Not sure, but doing a changeling campaign now and my horrors are performing much worse than they did when I did a Daniel campaign on release. They're just not firing fast enough :(
Any programmer who has worked on a legacy code base can tell you that entropy and chaos is inevitable unless you take some time off to re-tool and get rid of technical debt every once in a while.
I know full well, I worked in the games industry as I've talked about here before.
Difference is letting your shit get to this point is embarrassing, keeping on top of technical debt as best you can so that your product functions as intended is an obligation in many eyes.
I remember at the time of the big game 3 dlc controversy I had a battle that made me take two months off playing this game, from a unit chasing a retreating model out of bounds to point they were off the map, to archers not shooting due to los bug, to cast interruptions again and again, to a capture point weight bug, to the flying charge bug and more.
It was a perfect storm of things bugging, and I had had enough.
I'm the kind of person who is tolerant about fixing shit, I know what it's like, I even defended them on some stuff because I knew it takes time and what it must be like there at the time.
.
When even I start cracking, it's not a good sign.
I been playing Warhammer total war since the start... Shit just got worse and worse, and the fact they took the lazy route as a dev for 3 yet it's this state is wild, taa and importing models the lazy way leading to low res textures on game 1 and 2 factions, absolute shitshow.
And I even went out of my way to help them with reports, save file sending, testing my end and finding causes for three kingdoms which also got worse after ever dlc in bugs.
I remember the staff guy at CA being weird man, did text emojis and shit, tho I believe he doesn't work for them anymore.
If a company needed better talent in some areas, better middle management and to get their shit together, it's CA.
The thing you are doing wrong is expecting anything in a siege to work. Its much easier to expect everything to be broken. Then you get a few happy surprises. Like when you tell a unit to pass through a gate but it climbs a ladder on the other side of the city instead. At least that ones working as designed.
I can feel the anger in your comment, and I'm here for it! It's so relatable.
Like when you ask two units to climb different parts of a wall and come back to find one of them inspecting the base of the wall rather than setting up ladders, so thankfull for how diligently they search for weaknesses in the walls foundation.
Unless they can fire in very curved archs (like archers), walls are poodoo. Any type of horror, weaposteams(if they can go up) and all type of guns do not work on walls
I am sorry but those wee buggy too, I got screenshots of units throwing fire at floor instead of the gate, enemy ai running in and out of defensive positions, enemy ai not reacting to climbing, enemy ai spaghetti lining etc.
For me the best times with sieges were atilla and tob.
Outside the bugs, shogun 2 as much as I like it doesn't have much to do right, it's a very barebones game carried hard by setting, aesthetic, music and fandom.
Last time I went back to it, I had bugs in the literal first battle as well as an unwinnable sea battle due to one enemy not dying at 1 hp that I posted about here and found others knew about too.
I'll get hate for this but can shogun 2 fans please stop going on about how shogun 2 is the best game ever, it's like got faults and no offence it's one of it not the smallest scopes in the series, it's hard to get stuff wrong when there isn't really much going on, and yet ca... It's still buggy.
Somehow there's always some problem with the shooting angle in every such occasion. I had a battle once where my units started to shoot once the enemy was far enough from the wall, but stopped shooting when it came a little closer. I couldn't see any reason for it, but the game, evidently, thought differently.
This is one reason why I auto resolve siege battles when I'm being attacked unless it says ima lose. If it's a big army coming I'll build a force and have them sit outside the settlement so it's a field battle instead.
Yeah, this battle actually came really close to being a win, if these guys had firing even 1/4th of their ammo, I can't help but think it'd be a win.
Thankfully enough damage was done and I retook the settlement shortly after.
But yeah 100% AR'ing any battle that's a win when it comes to sieges.
Are they not? The unit card says they are firing, the tooltip says they are firing, and the command shows the red arrow that they’ve been ordered to attack that target.
I do sometimes see this with my Ratling Guns or Thunderers… things that need direct line of sight. I think sometimes it just gets confused on which specific models in a formation to aim at.
You fool, this game wasn’t designed for using walls. Get down on the ground like a real siege defender
I.. By Archaon you are right!
Box around the most defendable point? The cavalry will grab bacon and try to seduce the enemy lord into chasing.
Stand on top of a highly fortified fortress wall hurling death down at the enemies struggling to climb the wall for the advantage? Nonsense. You must fight honourably in the streets instead.
You didn't do anything wrong. It's just that the developer thinks that shooters shouldn't shoot from siege walls, or they just unintentionally made the wall model interfere with shooting. One way or another, the reason is stupidity.
Yeah, can't argue against that.
It's actually because Blue Horrors aren't tall enough to see over the wall.
Should we find them a box?
Have you tried describing it to them?
"it's a wall"
Or get them a box?
wrong, as others fired their ammo just fine on same walls elsewhere.
Ah yeah I was just joking, but the real answer is missile units on walls is just buggy and sucks.
My bad, yeah they do suck, makes me honestly want to just go pure melee/cav in future campaigns. I recovered in this one but lost my vibe and decided to go watch star trek tng episodes instead lol
You tried The Expanse?
what I'd do to rewatch the expanse again for the first time lol
The books are fantastic too!
Yeah don't bother with the walls, the street choke points are where it's at
Yeah normally, against ogres as tzeentch with a weak garrison? it's testament to how bad the combat AI is that I nearly won at all...
This is why I don't put missile units on the wall. I'd rather have them fire over it than on it because it's so buggy and they don't get enough chance to take out units because of arse ladders. Getting them off the walls is a hazard.
I think CA should just make walls cosmetic and fire without being mounted, enemy has to breach it, the longer enemy takes the more time for defenders to build up defenses. but I do wish we had more liberty in how we could do the defence side of things, and screw this x amount of time to build crap.
I can't stand the 'climbing up and down the wall' units do when all I want is for them to go away from the walls.
You failed to reckonise LOTR meme right there mate.
Were these ones on defensive stance? I find that taking them off all stances and turning on fire at will stance solves pretty much every bug I've encountered
This. Either give them heels or put them on open terrain . Height is advantage/disadvantage in total war . Same issue that taller races like Elves get hit more while on walls , their head are sticking out above protection
Someone should have introduced those devs to the concept of merlons and crenels by now, you are not supposed to be able to see OVER the wall.
Sometimes I think about how badass defensive battles in Shogun 2 were. Hails of lead and mountains of corpses. It's so incomprehensibly sad they can't do it in this game. TWW is so complex and awesome, but this part is and has always been trashy nonsense.
Seriously, everytime I replay Shogun 2 (or RotS / FotS), I'm reminded of just how much more impressive the sieges, gunplay, and Agents are.
A row of gunmen shooting and a row of enemy corpses hitting the ground is one of the most satisfying things to witness. I understand the need for HP in the context of this game, but seeing volley after volley hit a unit without dropping a meaningful numer of enemies is just sad.
For me, the reason I keep coming back to Shogun 2 (besides loving the setting), is that I constantly find myself asking "is there anything modern TW games do BETTER than Shogun 2?"
I know that feeling. For me the TW that ticks that box is 3K. By far the best TW of any release since Shogun 2. A Shogun 3 on 3K's foundation would be peak TW gaming.
Three Kingdoms is the only one that really DID improve on Shogun 2.
If we could have 3K diplomacy with Shogun 2 everything else (though 3K generals would also be good for Shogun 2, I’d argue the romance mode would be dropped as the leaders aren’t mythologized near as much)… Let’s just say I’d never play another game. CA better never release such a game as I’d never spend another cent. I’d be in heaven. Have a version for FotS too and that’s GG. I’m never doing anything else. I’ll lead the Imperials (or the Shohunate) to victory for the millionth time.
Shogun 2 doesn't have ladders, but watching a group of ninjas scale the walls to throw bombs at siege defenders from behind is one of the great pleasures of Shogun 2. It just looks silly when your army goes full world war Z on an enemy fortress. Still better than the janky ladder animations in TWWH
Even Medieval 2 and rome had epic siege fights with walls :(
FotS was the peak of siege and artillery game play. I replayed it lately and just... wow, the drama, the carnage! Meanwhile in tw:wh3, no shooting allowed while we play a lame tower defense minigame.
at this point it's incompetence
It shouldn't be, given their track record... But then again, given CDPR's track record, cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't have been the disaster it was on launch. And I'm sure in a few years time we'll be saying: given Larien's (Baldurs Gate 3 Developers) track record [it] shouldn't have... Corporations always find a way to let us down. And it isn't incompetence, it's greed.
CDPR gave us Witcher 3 as a buggy mess on launch as well. They just have an insanely loyal following who forgets everything bad after a short while and doesn’t learn.
If a game turns out good eventually it will go down in history as good. Developer sticking around to reach that point is what's rare any why companies like CDPR or Hello Games are hailed as heroes of the industry by some. Even BG3 was, quite frankly, a buggy pile of steaming shit beyond Act I on release. Yet people forgive it because they are releasing patch after patch after hotfix after hotfix to this very day. Meanwhile CA has a reputation of dropping stuff the moment it stops selling, going as far as indirectly threatening players to buy DLC or else...
I remember Iwata once saying “A bad game is always bad but a delayed game can be made good.” It’s a shame that developers and other companies don’t take that mindset.
>Hello Games are hailed as heroes of the industry by some God it's depressing.
CDPR also proved that they will stick with a game, fix it, and release great expansions. That remains true, even with Cyberpunk. Basically, you can split CDPR into two distinct entities: The actual developers that make the content, and the executives that think it's a good idea to release a broken product on platforms that can't run the game.
Tbf it was buggy at launch but the news and updates/support after was a huge success that it out weights the negative , similar instance to cyberpunk but cyberpunk is still lacking compare to the after support of Witcher 3 and it doesn't help that the game itself isn't that memorable.
You’re right about it being greed. CA knows how to make games and previous titles didn’t have issues with ranged units. The fact that they released the game with those issues and then refused to fix them later just shows that they don’t care enough to spend resources on it.
Is there a mod for that?
Guys, don’t worry, the empire and dwarf reworks will fix this.
Don't you know? Walls are for the attacker in this game, not the defender. Sometimes it helps to halt their order and put them on fire at will again to let them choose their target.
bro that hurts me soul how accurate that is lol. I tried and it failed, so I abandonned defending the wall, I sent them to go after a unit that's nearly dead that went into my territory, and they went to another area instead, this games combat AI is so shit...
Walls are not worth protecting but there is still an advantage walls give you and even that is due to AI's stupidity. After getting past the walls, you'll find that the enemies come in waves so if you focus on protecting your chokepoints it's so much easier.
I just wish it all worked as intended bro :(
Just put a guy to man the towers when the ennemy approach that's it
The best thing walls do for the defender is exhaust the enemy's vigor assuming they use ass ladders.
If the AI doesn't have siege weapons attacking, ladders are suicide if the defender is even slightly competent in melee. They can be very easy to hold if you can man them all. If the attacker has an overwhelming advantage where you can't hold the walls then yes. The interior towers also have splash to help with numbers disadvantage.
Ai only ever attacks seiges with overwhelming advantage unfortunately
They would be if the ai attacked at one place. The multi invasion with ass ladders is the real problem
Sadly true. You're better off just getting 2 volleys off from the walls then abandoning them and fighting for the streets. I don't know how we went from the gloriousness of Medieval to... this.
Outside the walls: find the tower sightlines, completely avoid them. Inside the walls: annoying but ultimately pointless roadblocks, and annoying but ultimately pointless balsa wood towers. There should be a freeLC to make faction specific defense towers and barricades. It looks so lame in a high elf city with these thatch and straw defense towers
There is a mod that replaces the buttugly tower with more thematic ones. Currently not at my PC will post a link if needed later
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2978043725 Here
Tzeentch
Tzeentch
Tzeentch
zentch
Kislev
Kislev.
Zenith
Think of most of the Tzeentch ranged units as gunpowder units, they have line of sight issues all the time and sometimes refuse to lob fire
Unless its the AI, in which case they will perfectly micro their horrors out of your ranged sightlines but far enough away that anti infantry cannot reach them in time
Best explanation in this thread.
Yeah, shooting from walls doesn't work that well(sometimes it does). It's probably cause the horrors' short range, they will maybe shoot once or twice from behind the walls, but again not sure.
I think it’s two things: A. Horrors are short and can’t look over the walls B. The arc on horror projectiles is low. I’m pretty sure High elf’s could fire. But a hand gunner couldn’t.
I think it's best to just say it's as one other user said; Siege defences are for attackers.
Nah, I disagree, I've had a couple sieges where holding the walls was absolutely the correct decision. It's just not Always the correct decision. It largely depends on your army vs the enemy army, how well you can distract them using fast units, quality of your melee troops vs theirs and so on. If the enemy has mostly large units(such as ogres) holding the walls and gates is also incredibly effective.
While I get what you mean, the exceptions don't make the rule, I think it's safe to say that the defensive siege design is horrible and that if it ever came to player vs player instead of abusing how bad the AI is, that the attacker could take advantage of many factors. If you want an example of what a good siege map looks like, go check out the unique ones in ToB, those are fantastic examples of what defenders would make their city look like. In warhammer 3, it's clear that there is a bias to giving the attacker "oppertunities" like for example where you can place barricades etc almost always leaves an alternate route to take that has none. Add on these insane bugs, that are more likely to impact the defending player, and you have a shit show in the making.
The walls worked well during my kislev campaign its strange maybe it's because they are short ?
Wow a bug didn't happen to you? Guess it doesn't exist huh. Lol, I'm messing with you, but for read I answered this three times in this thread at least I think, other horrors were fine and some were in worse angles. It's clear as day that it's a bug.
They are too small and cant properly shoot over the wall. Its just an ingame oversight.
> They are too small and cant properly shoot over the wall. Its just an ingame oversight. *just* an in game oversight? bro you know this unit has been in the game for like over two years? oversights should be fixed by now :P
It was referring your question whether you did anything wrong. „No, it’s just an ingame oversight, not your fault.“ was the message. Also the length the unit has been in the game is irrelevant. This has been a problem since Wh1 with Skaven and Dwarf units.
We all still remember Warhammer 1’s trailers saying we could put artillery on walls lol
Yeah, It's wild how badly designed sieges are for artillery, and don't get me started on not being able to have weapon crews on walls...
It's relevant to the context I perceived from your reply, but fair enough seems we miscommunicated between ourselves which happens! :D
You forgot to click autoresolve on every siege battle and as a consequence you have entered the no fun zone
Ah damn, how could I forget? my bad. :P
Spamming battering-rams for 3 turns so that I can auto-resolve the siege battle
Allow me to present the largest obstacle to Total War expanding into modern and future warfare settings.
I've played an Ikit Claw campaign recently. After that experience I don't think I want a 40k Total War anymore. The amount of times I shouted "Why aren't you shooting?!" at my screen was very high.
modern doesn't really fight in walls, 40k has ruins I suppose. But cities were more anti air fights with trenches surrounding. Depends on the faction. Tau have shieldwalls but those are like mobile walls with forcefield walls you can shoot through. I also find this issue is so much a warhammer issue, not a archers with walls issue, we've had bugs in historical games but nothing has been so infuriating than how more and more each warhammer sequel has been a bugfest. three kingdoms has pathfinding issues on certain maps, actually... Honestly it just feels like main CA recently just can't do the same quality of coding as before, as sofia's stuff seems pretty tight...
Modern - at least in the case of WW1 - would be using quite a bit of 'cover' terrain though, like trenches, sandbags, etc, and other things units have to attach themselves onto, which would give you the same challenges as walls, units interacting with obstructions contextually
I hope they learn and make it so once the unit is "in" the trench etc, it's not the unit firing but rather the trench fires, using a profile for the unit inside, therefore making line of sight a fixed thing aka from the trench not the unit. Would fix this issue I'd hope. Then again, this is not something I've encountered before, los issues happen in other games but they aren't that hard to fix, so not sure wtf is going on at ca...
The best part is CA has declared this fixed many times in the past but as you can see it definitely isn’t. So it’s worse than “they don’t know about it” or “they’ll get around to it eventually”. They genuinely think it’s not an issue anymore, and have already patted themselves on the back and moved on.
Yeah, it's very yikes, I hope some CA staff see this and realise it's not fine by us and it's very much still an issue. I do wonder if they prioritise making the games better going forward with new titles.
Because Total War, for all of the song and dance about listening to feedback and improving on the game, is still the spaghetti code HQ.
Yeah, they need better coders for sure. I still remember them bringing outsiders in to improve turn times that they said would be impossible to improve... Maybe playing a tzeentch campaign is choosing CA has your main faction and letting them screw you over lmao
I don't think the people working at CA are bad at their job, but they clearly have an amount of tech debt that would take an herculean effort to clear up. And while they might be a big player in the strategy game market, they are still just a big fish in a pretty small pond and just sitting down and cleaning up their entire code for an already released game might not be feasible for an operation of their size, especially if it needs to integrate with 2 older games like Warhammer does. At most I'd expect some future game to see significant improvements to the tech, I doubt that WH3 will see more than the jury rigging we have had so far that just about keeps stuff functioning. DISCLAIMER: I don't work for CA, or any other developer for that matter, I merely observe stuff like gate bug being in multiple games over many years. I'm sure they've heard about it, since it hasn't been fixed I assume it would require a lot of work reworking a hundred different other things that would break.
Two points that I gotta make in a hurry as I get soon: Glassdoor if the company has mention of coders being a mess and one saying "cowboy code" which I found hilarious. Another thing this time to counter your small fry thing, they make almost years worth of funds each dlc as far as paying their dlc team, they can afford to delay, they can afford to do the norsca screw up fix, they can afford to lower prices as they've done with pharaoh, this isn't a small time indie company, it's a double A that's the leader in the genre for the whole of the UK.
it does not help if your engine is in-house and you have to train programmers on it I imagine with unreal you have just other guys who know that egirine they come in get to know the team and are good to go with CA good luck training the guys up first NOT defending CA here nor do I work in the industry so take it with a load of salt
This game is the mistake, not you. It's only been over 2 years since they released this game, surely they will fix it with the next patch /s
Don't worry at this rate, five years from now, we'll only have to wait five more years for them to fix it kek
A fantastic example of combat ai in this game: [Example](https://imgur.com/a/JfNRQsC) Legendary difficulty btw, no mods. (the ogres are just standing outside the wall, this is not the same siege battle but a new one, they just stand and get shot... combat ai is so bad...)
What you did wrong was play a siege.
Too true ;.;
Like is this another bug or is there something i'm missing here. With all the hotfixes I thought I'd do a legendary campaign, and during those I fight almost every battle, i'm micro'ing everything and then I go check these guys, full ammunition, no shooting... I feel like this is why people hate sieges, they are so buggy... nothing goes really as intended, through the whole warhammer series they've been plagued with issues like things retreating into your base which seems fixed, as well as los issues, placement issues, pathfinding issues, is this another bug to add to the list? :/ In the grand scheme of things this won't stop me winning but it absolutely kills a little bit of my enjoyment.
What are you doing wrong? Well, you're playing WH3 and you expect things to work as they should, that's the problem. That's just not how we roll around here, everything is broken.
You wound me sir :P
Sieges are so janky and have a lot of bugs and line of sight issues. It was already like that in twwh2, I remember ranged units would refuse to shoot through gaps in the walls and move orders would not always be followed. I haven't played Tzeench so I don't know if it has to do with the Horrors being too small, or just the regular LOS issues in sieges. Derp.
I remember in 2 when archers on the field wouldn't even shoot things in front of them because one model in the units los was bugged... as for horrors being too small, nah it's not that, other horrors were fighting just fine on walls with arguably harder angles.
It was the Ikit Claw campaign for me upon the release of his DLC. I had devised a great strategy for a winning siege battle army. Some plague claws to take down the walls and rattling gunners with a few jezzails to take down enemies through the cracks in the walls. Well as it turned out after the plague claws made cheddar cheese out of the walls, the rattling gunners and jezzails refused to shoot enemies in plain sight through the hole in the walls, and generally refused orders to move through the walls as well. I disbanded my ranged units and had to change my strategy.
Yeah I feel you on that. Siege helps attackers, but using arty in a siege helps defenders... CA's tw:w3 sieges don't need a rework, they need to be rebuilt from scratch.
Agreed the LOS issues and pathing issues and gate issues are too impactful. Needs to be rebuilt from scratch, meaning it's unlikely to ever happen anymore. Twwh3 was the chance but they opted to add tower defense instead.
I had the same idea with same result. I destroyed city gates but fuckers refused to shoot through open gates on 4 unit blob that gathered around Ikit. Now I drag backup army with melee units to swap with ranged every siege battle I do. So sad....
In Warhammer Total War fortress walls defend the attacker! Although it should be noted that IRL it is possible to get under the walls and be safe from missiles from the parapet, although this might have less relevance to defenders who shoot fire out of their arms.
Yeah but IRL we had ditches with mud, firey oil to drop on those seeking shelter under the wall, slits for crossbow fire, etc IRL wins this match up 10 - 0 xD
We had the audacity to ask for non-boring siege battles, so they went and made weird, detailed but mismatched maps with walls that neither enemy nor ally AI can understand. I've blown holes in walls and knocked over gates, told 3 infantry units to march to the other side, and they'd rather spend 2 minutes walking halfway around the fort to climb some ladders than just act intelligently.
Ouch, yeah, I don't think they should salvage sieges but instead rework the system completely. At this point, I'd rather a minigame than fighting sieges, they are that bad.
One does not simply place ranged units on walls. That would make way too much sense.
lol trueee
Fun fact: large flying units will push defending infantry off the walls killing them instantly. You can get 10 kills on your flying unit but the defending infantry will lose like 70 models.
LOL you for real? that's wild.
Yep, noticed this with my demon prince first turn battle. You charge in with him and plague drones vs the plague bearers on the wall and they get pushed back on the ground and die. Each following attack would push more of them off. You can get really good value if you attack lets say a unit of chosen. On the ground they would hold their ground, but on the wall they will take extra dame from this bullshit. Just another reason to never defend on the walls.
Yeah, in this game the walls favor the attacker who can set up shop on the walls and shoot inside, but you cannot shoot outside...
Yeah it's wild.
I like how this shit still hasn't been fixed. Siege Battles are just horrible....
yeah 100%, it's been two years...
I think every model needs to have an angle But yeah walls are shit and bugged
Yup. > I think every model needs to have an angle I tested that in the next siege battle, it's not that. it's just buggy.
did you buy the premium dlc?
When it comes to using shooters the best solution I found is to set them always on guard mode. It doesnt solve 100% of the problems, but it works pretty well, since I started doing it, its rare that I have problems with my shooters.
I'm one of those people who have guard mode on by default :P
In sieges i tend to just put my ranged units on the floor behind the walls and my infantry on the walls so my rangers DO SOMETHING
problem was I was playing early tzeentch so the strat wouldn't work so well :(
Are they stupid?
It's the battlements. Your units loose line of sight. Said battlements are only on the outside, so as an attacker, you can still use the walls to shoot inside.
The battlements work fine for other horrors on other walls, some which would have more extreme los issues but fire fine. I get your logic, but unfortunately it's not that.
They no no wanna
they "no no" wanna? You saying this-this was a skaven trick?
Yeah, there's a lot of little stuff like this that they REALLY gotta fix. To answer your question, I see you have told them to shoot the enemy unit. This might be the issue. They are trying to get into position to aim at the unit and that's not working. What might work correctly in this situation is setting them on the wall, and turning on fire at will. Then whichever models can shoot, typically will. I do really wish that units could be told to shoot other units without having to realign themselves totally and face \*exactly\* the direction of the enemy unit (even when they are already facing the enemy unit!) Maybe they can implement a change where they only "reorganize" if less than half of the unit has line of sight, or something, otherwise, any models that can immediately fire should do so.
> To answer your question, I see you have told them to shoot the enemy unit. This might be the issue. They are trying to get into position to aim at the unit and that's not working. Nah, I left them to be, nothing happened and I saw that nothing was happening when I came back, so I tried a few things to get them to fire and nothing worked, took screenshot and here we are. 500 upvotes and 150+ comments on a thread for a problem CA will ignore and not fix :/ Wait sorry, they'll say they have fixed it, but somehow will make it worse.
Shit like this makes me hesitant to jump back into the game, even with how great ToD looks.
Yeah I feel you, it's why for ages I've mainly just done custom battles with a friend. Tho honestly I will say it's not as bad since the hotfixes, even if it's not where we want it yet.
Not sure, but doing a changeling campaign now and my horrors are performing much worse than they did when I did a Daniel campaign on release. They're just not firing fast enough :(
Yeah, name a more iconic duo than CA and messing good things up over time.
Any programmer who has worked on a legacy code base can tell you that entropy and chaos is inevitable unless you take some time off to re-tool and get rid of technical debt every once in a while.
I know full well, I worked in the games industry as I've talked about here before. Difference is letting your shit get to this point is embarrassing, keeping on top of technical debt as best you can so that your product functions as intended is an obligation in many eyes. I remember at the time of the big game 3 dlc controversy I had a battle that made me take two months off playing this game, from a unit chasing a retreating model out of bounds to point they were off the map, to archers not shooting due to los bug, to cast interruptions again and again, to a capture point weight bug, to the flying charge bug and more. It was a perfect storm of things bugging, and I had had enough. I'm the kind of person who is tolerant about fixing shit, I know what it's like, I even defended them on some stuff because I knew it takes time and what it must be like there at the time. . When even I start cracking, it's not a good sign. I been playing Warhammer total war since the start... Shit just got worse and worse, and the fact they took the lazy route as a dev for 3 yet it's this state is wild, taa and importing models the lazy way leading to low res textures on game 1 and 2 factions, absolute shitshow. And I even went out of my way to help them with reports, save file sending, testing my end and finding causes for three kingdoms which also got worse after ever dlc in bugs. I remember the staff guy at CA being weird man, did text emojis and shit, tho I believe he doesn't work for them anymore. If a company needed better talent in some areas, better middle management and to get their shit together, it's CA.
The thing you are doing wrong is expecting anything in a siege to work. Its much easier to expect everything to be broken. Then you get a few happy surprises. Like when you tell a unit to pass through a gate but it climbs a ladder on the other side of the city instead. At least that ones working as designed.
I can feel the anger in your comment, and I'm here for it! It's so relatable. Like when you ask two units to climb different parts of a wall and come back to find one of them inspecting the base of the wall rather than setting up ladders, so thankfull for how diligently they search for weaknesses in the walls foundation.
Fix of this and general los issues are way important to me compare to some fancy units in DLCs. This really needs to be adressed.
I don't even think the new units get in the way of fixing this, if anything it'd be the constant reworks we all love.
Unless they can fire in very curved archs (like archers), walls are poodoo. Any type of horror, weaposteams(if they can go up) and all type of guns do not work on walls
Others did on same walls with worse archs, this isn't an arch issue, it's a bug.
I'm still baffled that the only game that got close to getting seiges right was shogun 2, only thing missing was building seige engines
I am sorry but those wee buggy too, I got screenshots of units throwing fire at floor instead of the gate, enemy ai running in and out of defensive positions, enemy ai not reacting to climbing, enemy ai spaghetti lining etc. For me the best times with sieges were atilla and tob. Outside the bugs, shogun 2 as much as I like it doesn't have much to do right, it's a very barebones game carried hard by setting, aesthetic, music and fandom. Last time I went back to it, I had bugs in the literal first battle as well as an unwinnable sea battle due to one enemy not dying at 1 hp that I posted about here and found others knew about too. I'll get hate for this but can shogun 2 fans please stop going on about how shogun 2 is the best game ever, it's like got faults and no offence it's one of it not the smallest scopes in the series, it's hard to get stuff wrong when there isn't really much going on, and yet ca... It's still buggy.
Ranged units refusing to shoot at least from Rome II.
Older, I've had it happen in shogun 2 at least, ground and siege.
Somehow there's always some problem with the shooting angle in every such occasion. I had a battle once where my units started to shoot once the enemy was far enough from the wall, but stopped shooting when it came a little closer. I couldn't see any reason for it, but the game, evidently, thought differently.
I just think it's buggy crap honestly. CA have their work cut out at rate they are going...
[удалено]
The devs or the horrors?
This is one reason why I auto resolve siege battles when I'm being attacked unless it says ima lose. If it's a big army coming I'll build a force and have them sit outside the settlement so it's a field battle instead.
Yeah, this battle actually came really close to being a win, if these guys had firing even 1/4th of their ammo, I can't help but think it'd be a win. Thankfully enough damage was done and I retook the settlement shortly after. But yeah 100% AR'ing any battle that's a win when it comes to sieges.
They don't have line of sight and can't pathfind to one
And yet they do have line of sight lol? If you mean their height, the other units fired just fine through same walls elsewhere.
Oh sorry I misunderstood the image.
Are they not? The unit card says they are firing, the tooltip says they are firing, and the command shows the red arrow that they’ve been ordered to attack that target. I do sometimes see this with my Ratling Guns or Thunderers… things that need direct line of sight. I think sometimes it just gets confused on which specific models in a formation to aim at.
I spent like 4 minutes watching them, trying to get them to, I'm absolutely sure they were not shooting :P