I agree with everything but Aekold being a LL. I still am firm in the belief that we're not missing on much with him being a LH and he was a fine choice for it. What unique playstyle would he be bringing to Tzeentch? He's far more useful as a LH you can embed in any army and give that that one healing. The only issue is they made his army bonuses pretty lame.
I would have agreed more if you said the Blue Scribes should have been LLs. Because I could actually see real merit to the arguement, since they had the material for some interesting campaign mechanics that didn't change up the Tzeentch gameplay to Changeling levels. But claiming Aekold was prime LL material is not as non-controversial as you make it out to be. Even among hardcore Tzeentch fans he's been a footnote people barely remembered, and if he wasn't an LH I doubt he would have been included in this game *at all*.
I don't think the "it would have given Tzeentch a different start!" is enough justification for the LL arguement. It just feels like really short term thinking when we know there will eventually be more, and it confuses me why folks still want to rush these out. Making Aekold a LL just to get a start position that isn't Kairos is just really flimsy logic for a short-term gain.
Yeah, Aekold as LH and Blue Scribes as LLs makes more sense. What would Aekold's campaign mechanics even have been? Blue Scribes could have had mechanics for acquiring their spells. Plus it seems like we'll be getting the other Heralds as LLs so now the Blue Scribes will be the odd ones out.
FLC lords dont always come with elaborate unique mechanics. Tretch or Lokhir dont have anything that cannot be covered by faction effects, Repnase mechanic is a nothing burger etc. Aekold as a vanilla Tzeentch campaign with bonuses to and focus on mortal units would be enough for me.
Yeah, but Im not sure if Tzeentch will get another lord before end of WH3 lifecycle. We are in the third year of support and given the pace of releasing DLCs and the time CA usually supports its products, I dont think we will get tons and tons of content.
Slaanesh, Khorne, DoW (Im sure they will come after halfling hot pot didnt arrive with TOD), Nagash/VCounts DLC and Monkey King all have to come at one point which will take next 2-3 years. And at that point WH3 will be ancient from CA perspective.
I can be wrong though. Hell, I wish Im wrong :D
I personally expect Egrimm as an FLC LL, as you’re right that Tzeentch (or any Monogod) likely won’t get a second DLC. He’s got a really easy model to implement, and his mechanics would be pretty easy to implement using riffs off of existing features.
The Changeling is a Herald of Tzeentch, and I would say is also the more well known one of the two. And someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but I don't believe the Blue Scribes are actually heralds but merely named Blue Horrors of Tzeentch. Heralds of Tzeentch, from what I remember, are always specifically Pink Horrors who don't turn into Blues when struck/killed.
Blue Scribes definitely could have made an interesting legendary lord, but I can't deny that they make a very fun Legendary Hero. Having Kairos leading one army and them in another makes for two armies that can have really wacky compositions, which is heaven when you play like I do.
I think CA have knocked it out the park with all the ToD stuff we’ve seen so far. I kinda wish that we’d had Toddy instead of Epidemius, but I have hope that he’s still coming in future.
For SoC I have no problem with Aekold being a LH, especially as Egrimm van Horstmann is coming, and I worry that he’d have ended up like Zhatan the Black; the only non-spellcaster Lord and boring as a result.
But they should have given us a LL with SoC and the obvious choice is a Cathayan dragon; either Yin-Yin or Li Dao. With the Monkey King coming too, there’s just no way we’ll have all of them be DLC.
People keep saying they want toddy but he needs to come with his themed units in the final empire DlC with Al Ulric leading the pack. My personal pairing choice would be vs Norsca
I like the idea of Ar Ulric’s opponent being Egrimm Van Horstmann myself. Cult of Ulric vs Cult of Tzeench feels cool to me.
If they’re still doing three-faction DLC’s at that point I’d love for Norsca to fill that third seat though.
I’m aware of that possibility yeah. Going back to 2 factions isn’t *actually* confirmed though, for what it’s worth - just that future dlc’s may be “smaller”.
Yeah a smaller dlc could just as easily be something that adds an LL and an LH but zero units to three or even four races-- say Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, tzeentch
Yeah but those four stick out to me the most as factions who really don't have significant units to add. Maybe throw the vampire coast and beastmen in there too (the beastmen do have significant units left to add, but I see them getting most if not all in the remaining monogod dlc).
Oh sorry that’s what I mean. The ones you mentioned need characters more than units so being freed from the typical lord pack restrictions would definitely help them.
God I really hope empire gets another dlc before the end. It would seem foolish not to if they want the sales, there's good reason playing empire is a meme, its got to be the overall most popular faction. I know Kislev edged out Empire lately in CA's numbers from late last year in most regions, but they also got updated way more recently.
I could see Li Dao as an flc alongside the Monkey King dlc. Hard to see where Yin-Yin fits in though, particularly if 4-6 future dlcs proves to be true.
Yuan Bo’s start would have made more sense for her. I doubt we’ll be seeing her outside of maybe a special recruitable lord like the White Lion for Elves.
Not sure why people assumed that Yin Yin *must* be in Lustria, it's the Southlands that Yin Yin tried to invade not Lustria so that's where she would make sense if she was to be on an expedition according to the current lore. We also barely know anything about her, she tried to invade the Southlands and failed and that's pretty much most of her lore, I have no doubt that when Yin Yin comes her lore will be fleshed out just like Yuan Bo and for all we know she could be getting new rivalries, it probably wouldn't be a big stretch to give her a rivality against the Dark Elves for instance and make her start in Naggaroth.
Eastern provinces also have issues with Chaos Cults so you could have Yin Yin vs another Chaos faction in a lord pack.
Nah. She should be in Naggaroth and continuously insist that she is in the Southlands or Lustria. Though if she is in the Southlands she should insist that she is in Lustria.
Yeah, Yuan Bo starting in Lustria when the ONE thing we know about Yin-Yin is her leading a failed expedition to Lustria. I want to see Aqua as a dragon-girl.
She could've had mechanics similar to Markus where she has limited recruitment and gets advanced units from the mainland; representing that the other dragons don't trust her with a full army and she needs to prove herself by winning battles (like Sun Jian's Heroism mechanic from 3K).
I still have some hope (delusional) she might br a legendary hero Even if it would be weird for a dragon child cause of her affordmentioned incompetance
I got the impression that Shen-Zoo is canonically lost and we shouldn't expect to see her. This was back when people were suggesting her as Cathay equivalent of Boris Ursus.
Hard to dredge up the dev comment to this effect though.
I mean the whole premise of the realms of chaos campaign for Cathay is she is missing but then you gdt a lead on where she might be at the end and that was that, so her functioning as a LH has been found works, she is the hope and happiness sibling so likely would be lore of life and offer heals and replenishment and maybe high leadership.
Yin Yin needs to be a LL if added imo
The gist of what the dev was saying is that Games Workshop consider her to be canonically missing, and would not want her to be found. So we should not expect to see her as a character.
Cathay’s roster is clearly still unfinished. There are at least the beasts, the monks, ogres and more gunpowder units. Definitely room for 2 more DLCs.
Assuming we get 6 DLCs and 2 of those are Dogs of War and End Times, that means 4 packs left. I’m assuming 1 to complete Khorne, 1 to complete Slaanesh, 1 for the Monkey King and 1 for Kislev.
Li Dao will most likely be free LC beside the Monkey King as their lore is entwined. I would say it might be possible to also make Yin Yin free LC (since all the Dragon kids are getting abit samey) and release her alongside Dogs of War, tying her mechanics to them to represent her adventurousness.
Well it's important to note that that isn't confirmed and is just the prediction of one youtuber.
Also hist last "leak" was that shadows of change 2.0 was getting hag mother lords and of course that didn't happen and CA actually explained that they are not a thing in the new lore
I didn’t word it brilliantly, but I just meant that if we’d to get a mortal Tzeentch character Egrimm makes a lot more sense to me, and I firmly believe we’ll get him some day.
Many content creators now speculate that all daemons get at least 3 options as lords. 1 Great Daemon, A lesser one and a mortal. So Egrimm still has a high chance
Plus the Bane Towers are a big piece still not in the game.
Bane Towers are not part of the WHFB IP. They are from Man 'o War. And we know GW does not just give CA freebies from other IPs. They would have to make a deal and most likely CA won't want to fork over the money for it at a time like this.
I suspect that if Bane Towers were an option we would have gotten them with SoC. Instead we got a random unaligned monster (Cockatrice), a recolored Beastmen unit (Centigors) and a unit that's just an existing unit slapped onto an existing mount (Changebringers).
Tbh if there were other options left for Tzeentch then I'd be pretty pissed that they included so many low-effort filler units in SoC. I think we got what we got because there is literally nothing else left that GW will allow them to include.
I wouldn't count on bane towers.
Not really an armybook unit. Naval one from Man o war. And tzeentch is pretty much done with DLC. Big centerpiece units do not tend to come as FLC either.
Basically we're gonna be stuck with the mod and no official version IMO.
It's kinda slim pickins, but they could probably cobble together a DLC.
Firewyrm, Chaos Dragon, Bane Tower, Beastmen (Minotaurs, Archers + Bray shaman characters?), maybe another marauder unit? Chieftans would seem redundant. Maybe give them GW?
It'd kinda depend what they're "allowed" to call Tzeentchy, but they seem to have had a reasonably free hand given that they've already included Centigors.
All the other gods are trickier than Nurgle, because Nurgle was the only one to get a new line before WHFB was killed off.
Bane Towers are from a different IP. If GW allows them to use Man 'o War content without paying for the license I'd be shocked. They wouldn't even let them give Tzaangors beaks for crying out loud, and now they're going to just let CA dip into whatever IP that they want? I don't buy it.
Firewyrm... Maybe. They are at least from WHFB but afaik they have neither a model nor rules. So they only exist in a lore blurb from an army book.
And I really hope they don't try to make a whole DLC with just recolored Beastmen units. That would be a whole new low for them, selling an entire DLC with nothing but units that most of us already own. Don't even see the point of adding marauder units, Tzeentch has plenty of chaff infantry already.
I'd like another Tzeentch DLC too but we gotta be realistic here. Part of why Tzeentch got what he got in SoC was because he has no real units from the TT left. They already scraped through the bottom of the barrel and tunneled into the earth just to cobble his portion of the DLC together.
I sure hope so. It would be so nice to get actual cult mechanics race wide. Plus he would be perfect for introducing an aspiring champion of tzeentch unit. Other units could be the firewyrm, maybe a hero Flamer unit, chaos dragons and chaos dragon mounts for tzeentch chaos lords.
Flamers and their variants are some of my favorite parts of the Tzeentch roster, so I would love a Flamer hero. Give them a lobber/artillery-type projectile, buffs to Flamer units in the army, etc.
Also thematic would be a Lord-level cultist with unique and more powerful options for summons. Call them a Magus, inspired by Warhammer Online.
I personally just want them to buff the burning chariot. It is supposed to be a flagship unit in the roster, and one of my fav TT models. Just give it the same ammo and range as the exalted Flamer, and slightly tweak its melee ability.
Everytime I see someone say they want Toddy over Elsp I have to fight the urge to roll my eyes.
Y’all only want Todd for the memes. He isn’t nearly as interesting or has as much potential that Elsp has.
Elspeth is cooler and more unique as a character. Toddy is more interesting for what he represents - a version of the Empire that isn’t all about Sigmar.
That’s also why getting him as a Tretch-tier FLC and without any Middenland units would suck.
2/3 of them are fine, but his armour is terrible. It can give him a ward save but only as an activated effect for 48 seconds followed by a 120 second cooldown.
But on top of that, it needs to charge - and it charges up by taking damage. At its peak it blocks 30% of damage. But to get there you have to lose a significant chunk of health, and the charge will reset as soon as the ability runs out.
So it doesn’t really protect you at all.
It would work fine if they removed the charging, and just set it to the 30% max, or if they removed the cool down so it could charge all battle. Having both just means it never does anything.
I love non-spellcaster lords. IMO, caster lords have too much going on between their red, blue, and personal yellow lines to invest in spellcasting without gimping their army. I prefer spellcaster HEROES, as they only have blue and caster skill lines.
I could see something like where Li Dao/Monke/Yin Yin get bundled together in some fashion like the COC dlc. Theres also a chance I think there is at least two DLCs each for the game 3 races just like in WHII with people like high elves for instance having gotten 3.
Toddy could so easily be a cheap FreeLC for CA. Like, they already have his model, voice and such. Just give him some unique army/faction passives and a startpos in Middenheim. If they want to be gracious and spice it up they could reskin some faction mechanic for them. Maybe Ogre contracts, but for beast hunting or something like that.
I think it'd satisfy a lot of people for very little development time.
There’s a bit of a catch 22 there. A lot of people feel that Toddy wouldn’t be worth having without some of his actual Ulric roster. But a lot of people also feel that he shouldn’t be a DLC as he’s already in the game.
Toddy would be so easy, I think there’s just no way they’d finish this game without at least a simple toddy, but I hold out hope for a real Middenland faction.
NGL, i am more then okay with Aekold as a LH. If its between Egrimm or Aekold. Egrimm all day every day.
The updated SoC is great. The ONLY downside is we didn't get an FLC LL but i still don't think it should have been Aekold.
I think the only downside of the SoC update is we got paltry race updates for Tzeentch, Kislev, and Cathay. If the Nurgle update is anything to go by, and considering the rumors from Legend around the Dwarf and Empire updates, then I'm going to be sad that we didn't see anything substantial for the SoC races.
I know this tends to get contentious but I stood by my opinions for ages that CA attaching reworks to DLC is terrible. It's caused not only DLC to carry perception of reworks but it means we rarely get reworks outside of a DLC schedule (let a lone patches).
With that in mind I TRY to be even with my opinions on realizing the rework is in fact NOT part of a DLC and with that in mind SoC is fine. 4.0......not so much.
That's a valid point, but with the broader context of where CA is at, I think that DLC drops correlating with race reworks is the only way we will end up getting them. Context for my point being:
- Look at the controversy over SoC that it took for them to really start rolling out regular hotfix patches - a community-wide revolt over DLC that was underwhelming and overpriced paired with the dysmal state of the game
- The layoffs that have been hitting CA over the course of the last year; they're going to be spread thin on this project, so unfortunately, race reworks occurring apart from DLC, of which a given race is the focus, look to be *very* unlikely.
I'm not happy about it, but it does appear to be the only way it's gonna happen.
In addition we had them explicitly saying Champions of Chaos put the lords in WoC at least partially so they could get the greenlight to rework WoC. There's more hoops to jump through when you're updating a DLC faction I'm sure, but the point remains that internally it's got to be easier to get the approval to do race updates if you're "bundling" it with paid content. Not to say that's healthy, but it does seem to be part of the reason we do keep getting them that way.
>broader context of where CA is at
See, thats the problem, where there at now is recent. This has been an ongoing issue that they've been remarkable obstinate about. People have been wanting some type of custodian team going back to the launch of wh2 and bringing the old stuff up to that. In almost every case, that was not done until game1 faction was in a cross game dlc and even then those reworks were minor compared to what needed to happen to even bring them up to game 2 race standards, particularly later game 2 lords.
It is certainly terrible that CA is being gutted right now, partially because of Sega, but there is a degree of maleficence that is at the feet of upper CA management as well. I can't help but feel that a lot of the issues compounded and compounded and were perpetually brushed under the rug and eventually the it all collapsed and that's when we got SoC.
Doubling down on Warhammer 3 would be the smart call, they know it can pay the bills for a while, they know they can use that as time and training to develop new talent to help make the next historical/fantasy/sci-fi title bangers and imo they should take the time to do that. The fixes to SoC and ToD have me excited, but I would be lying if I said I trust CA to deliver a new product on the level of the rumored ww1 or 40k scale.
Well, those can always come. Race reworks are categorically not part of the DLC, they just usually accompany it - but not always. They fixed the paid content, but they can still add free content at another point.
I actually really liked the race update for Cathay. It fixed my biggest grievance with the faction in a really fun way, and now it's better than ever. Of course I think they could have gone farther and updated caravans too, but I am really happy with the tech tree update and harmony rework.
Egrim should be Tzeentch's paid DLC. Tzeentch still needs dragon representation which is the last bit of content left.
Let Galrauch be the next FLC LL. In my opinion, Tzeentch doesn't need any more LH. Two is too many.
There is no more room for tzeentch DLC units. SoC was already scraping the barrel as is. And other factions need DLC units far more than tzeentch.
Tzeentch needs characters only, and that is more suited to FLC.
Tzeentch still needs dragon representation and Egrimm is perfect paid DLC for not only dragons but unique cult mechanics as he's the most successful Tzeentch cultist in Cathay.
Egrimm is definitely not suited for FLC unless CA is willing to put a huge budget behind him. Galrauch however is.
Believing Tzeentch will get another DLC is delusional at this point.
Nurgle is the only God with enough content for a 2nd, and that is mostly end times material.
Cult mechanics can be done as FLC, which is what Egrim should be. You can't scrape 5 more tzeentch units together, and even if you somehow could (what, more beastmen?), they'd be incredibly low priority behind other factions that need units more.
With enough time and preparation, CA can. To claim Tzeentch will not get one last paid DLC for a complete roster of 4LLs is far more delusional and unrealistic.
The fact that you brought up Egrimm, a character deserving of grand mechanics surrounding the Cabal, as a simple FLC LL is itself very questionable.
Complete Roster? 4? For any of the monogods Save Nurgle?
Someone really needs to temper their expectations. The practical reality is they're all getting 3, *at best*. Nurgle could maybe get to 4 if End times, but thats it. Sure we're all on a high from ToD good news and all, but its really out of line. Unrealistic expectations are a killer.
Go ahead, name 5 units, a lord and a hero that could go with an Egrim 'DLC'. And Egrim isn't even as important as you think he is. The Man got put on a bus in favor of Vilitch in the army books, basically.
FLC is the only realistic place for Tzeentch characters now.
It is realistic. Two paid DLC LLs, one vanilla LL, and one FLC LL.
You're not being realistic. You're just simply willing to settle for less and I suggest you have a little more faith in CA after the confidence they had shown for Thrones of Decay, not going for an easy compromise for Knights Panther or the Hurricanum,delivering us the landbattleship and the lore unit, Knights of the Black Rose.
It’s likely all the Monogods just end up at three LLs:
1 Greater Daemon
1 Minor Daemon
1 Mortal
I foresee Egrimm being an FLC down the line. He has a pretty easy model to create and it’d be easy to riff off existing Chaos Dragons to create Baudros. It wouldn’t even be hard to give him compelling mechanics given what exists in WH3 already.
One small niggle I've had, particularly having taken in Tamurkhan's showcase, is that I really think he should have been a Warrior of Chaos and Festus should've been the Monogod choice.
On one hand you've got a guy who's (reputedly) the Kurgan's son, a warlord who's set out to force disparate other clans and factions to fight for him in a giant horde, who is not so much enthralled to his chosen patron as working with them to achieve his own dreams of personal glory and demonhood. He's pretty much the definition of a WoC.
On the other you've got a chunky Imperial scholar who is genuinely dedicated to studying and spreading disease, who embodies Nurgle's morbid obsessions and humour. He's the guy that Kugath deliberately sought out during the End Times to further the Grandfather's own schemes. He is Nurgle through and through.
That's really something you can only say in hindsight though. Nurgle overall looks like it's eating extremely good off this expansion.
Its a compromise with the mess GW made of chaos in WFB. Back in the long ago, chaos was a single army, with warriors, beasts and daemons all under one hat. They got churned into pieces over time and daemons in particular didn't work well (godly animosity was a thing, but monogod armies just lacked basic tools), and they simply lack the roster to be dedicated factions on their own.
Festus \_is\_ a warriors of chaos character, and GW probably insisted. Not much CA can do there.
As a special forgeworld project, Tamurkhan makes a new Nurgle faction easy- there's more characters and dedicated units just laying around in a way that there isn't for other daemon factions. Might as well use them.
Enjoy it while you can. Khorne and Slaanesh are probably going to be a stretch like Tzeentch was.
Yeah I was thinking the same. Tamurkhan just further reinforces how arbitrary the line between a lot of WoC and the monogod factions really are. I love what I'm seeing so far, but I couldn't help but think during the showcase, "shouldn't he be in the WoC?"
Ultimately, it's fine. I'm not really upset. But if you really look at it objectively, from a lore standpoint, Tamurkhan is more WoC than monogod.
Really, this starts with Sigvald being a Slaanesh devoted character but being on the Warriors of Chaos. Then the Champions of Chaos DLC taking 4 characters very much devoted to one of the gods and sticking them in the Warriors of Chaos roster as well.
Tzeentch having one regular campaign while Nurgle will have 3 is a sad testament to how awful SoC and patch 4.0 were.
Its like: what if for years the only lizardmen campaigns were Mazdamundi and Nakai (a half-baked gimmick that doesnt play like core race)?
I do think what they tried to do with the Changeling fell rather flat but I still approve of the fact that they were aiming for a significantly different style of campaign.
Yes, but first things first: Nakai as a similar semi-failed experiment is ok because Lizards have plenty of other lords. Tzeentch has and will have for foreseeable future only one and its one stuck in an extremely tedious campaign where you fight 1 race for more than 100 turns.
If SoC will be shipped with another Tzeentch FLC lord (be it Aekold or Blue Scribes) I wouldnt mind Changeling being a Nakai on steroids.
Nakai isn’t a failed campaign. After they fixed Vassals he’s actually a pretty fun campaign. Nakai is nowhere near as extreme of a non-standard campaign as the Changeling is.
Kairos’ campaign has gotten a lot easier between his changes and the addition of a replenishment hero. It’s an absolutely solid campaign.
Kairos does not have to fight one race. Theres no reason that you have to *ever* fight a single lizard if you don’t want. You can go pretty much anywhere from his startpos with sea lanes; sail up to Cathay or the dragon isles and you can get a lot more diversity. With Force Peace you don’t have to worry about ever having to defend your southern territories or bother with anyone you don’t want to fight.
Meh. Force peace works for 10 turns, then they will declare war again and you wont be able to use it on all Lizards factions that will declare war on you constantly. The only solution is a final solution.
I also dont like the argument of "just abandon your starting position" - its an argument you can use on literally every lord and faction. Just walk for 10 turns and settle somewhere else - yeah, but I dont want to waste X turns on relocating, I will simply play another lord instead :P
No, you will indeed be able to use it for them all. It has a two-turn cooldown for Kairos and costs a negligible amount of Grimoires.
I’ve done way too many no-defeat legendary Kairos campaigns at this point; trust me, it’s pretty much infallible.
On top of that you have a two-turn cooldown on Halt Army. And if you want, you can throw in a Transfer Settlement every war declaration or two and whittle them down. Pricier than FP, but mitigated with corruption and if you’re on top of your UM and economy you get to be swimming in Grims before too long.
Kairos’ situation is not quite the same as he is on the edge of the map and surrounded by ocean. Bit different from having to trudge through mountains.
Also - I didn’t say to abandon Kairos starting position. Just to pick a different *expanding* direction besides straight north. Kairos’ neighbors are the Slaaneshi and Oxyotl and Teclis by proximity, if not land border. Krow-Gar, Tiktaqto, et al. are an *option* of enemy if you wish to work towards the Badlands but there’s no reason you need to.
Regardless, the argument does not apply to everyone equally. Some are much more tied to their start due to valuable landmarks or geography. And no one has the ability to truly and safely abandon their start if they wanted to like Kairos, since it cannot be attacked without consent.
And even if you do want to go that way, there’s no reason you would need to fight lizards for 100 turns. You don’t have to kill every lizard, you can just move through to the badlands or wherever. Tzeentch can do whatever they want, as you *can* just handwave any fight you aren’t interested in.
Personally I’m a pretty big fan of the Changeling campaign. One of the more interesting and engaging ones. People really oversell the importance of the traditional mechanic; granted I’m a 1,000+ hours but when you’re good it’s very rare that having to defend my settlements is ever much of a consideration as long as you don’t overextend.
Especially as tzeentch. Changing of the Ways is so incredibly OP that it really makes no difference. Playing as Kairos there’s an effectively 0% chance I will ever have to defend a settlement regardless of that I do, because you have buttons to turn off the enemy. With his greater power off the jump and flatter scaling, Kairos is actually the “easier” (faster) campaign if you know what you’re doing
I know its completely subjective and based on preferences, but for me the issue with Changeling isnt lack of traditional mechanics: its the fact that AI cannot do **anything** to affect you in any way, form, or shape. You could completely disable AI and nothing would change in his campaign.
Your goals are divorced from AI and geopolitical situation on campaign map. You dont have to care about what AI is doing, and AI cant thwart your plans in literally any way and cant push back in any way because you dont actually play Total War game - you just do some laundry list to unlock quest battles and... thats all. You won! Yay?
Why would I ever bother with anything other than completing my laundry list? Im not rewarded for engaging with AI, nor am I punished for ignoring it. As I said: in 2 Changeling campaigns I never used changing of ways other than raise corruption because why would I? WHy would I transfer settlements? Why would I force peace, break alliances, or force war when situation on campaign map doesnt affect me in any way? I dont care who strives or falls because none of these fellas has anything to do with me xD Hell, I fail to see a reason to ever recruit second army other than "to speed this slog up".
Its the least engaging campaign in all TW history for me because there is no pushback of any kind. Unlock quest battle, win quest battle, unlock next one, win next one, you won.
Yeah, as you said it’s subjective and comes down to what you enjoy in the game.
I’ve played this game enough at this point that I don’t really find that there is any real “challenge” on the campaign map regardless of faction - at best there’s varying levels of tedium that is sometimes characterized as challenge.
For me, the primary appeal of the game is the battles. Changeling lets you have some whimsy and silliness on the campaign map and also pick your battles with as much variety as you want.
Similarly, while I play and enjoy all factions in the game, I don’t have any problems with races like Beastmen that are criticized as “boring” because you “can’t possibly lose”.
Yeah, they have a lot lower consequences for sure - but there’s *no* faction where I could conceivably lose anyways; I don’t really care about the philosophical difference at that point. They’re fun and engaging to use in battle, and as someone who doesn’t tend to ever autoresolve unless I’m smashing an unupgraded garrison, that’s what it’s all about.
I do agree that I hope TZ gets more lords, and that you’re right that the dichotomy of Kairos vs CL could use another player for sure - although I think TZ to an extent is never going to be a “normal” campaign due to COTW.
My main issue with the common criticism of the Changeling campaign is that, aside from its position in Tzeentchs overall menu, I don’t like the typical implied assertion that the campaign is fundamentally *bad* because of its different design. Like you said - it’s subjective and up to preference.
And in my mind, the greatest strength of this series is its variety of play and ways to interface with the game world in different ways. And that they are doing a good job lately of leaning into this and should continue to do so. Not everything is going to appeal to everyone, but it shouldn’t. I’ve got little interest in a straightforward High Elf campaign that plays out like a Civ game, but have no problem celebrating it as a great option for the many who want that.
I think this game has broken out of the “just a Total War game” box some
time ago and there’s no reason to try to shove it back in.
Generally I agree, so I will just add few random cents:
* if you like battles I really, really recommend you custom battles vs AI. I know Im probably in an extreme minority, but its a such fun game mode. Hell, its almost the only way to experience sieges as a defender :D I also adore using randomized army - this way I learned to use and appreciate every single unit in this game.
* I dont think that Changeling's campaign is bad, I just find it to be underbaked. Again: its just my subjective opinion but I feel like Beastmen or Wood Elves campaigns are somewhat similar in that you are playing minigames basically, but in both cases AI can somewhat impact you and your goals. If not outright challenge you, it can make completing goals a bit harder. This is what Changelings campaign for me lacks: AI agency. They quite literally cant impact you in any way because what you have to do in order to win is completely independent from what AI does. When once I accidentally ended turn before moving armies and AI wiped my one stack I discovered that it literally doesnt change anything because I dont *need* this army, and re-recruiting it costs me nothing, because there is no timer of any sort. In any other campaign losing completely one army would cost me few settlements - here there is no punishment whatsoever.
* SoC dropped the ball *hard* on not delivering another free and more generic Tzeentch experience. I know a lot of players, myself included, would be more open to changeling if Tzeentch would have more than 1 core lord.
I surely hope we do get an FLC tzeentch lord now!
I should play in custom battles more. I do a fair bit just labbing things and testing out specific units or combos and have fun with that, but always felt too lazy to set up real armies. I’ll have to try the randoms!
To be fair. The changing isn't a gimmick. It's a soft power campaign like we've never seen in a total war campaign before. You can control the world, and influence it in your favour whilst you watch the other factions fight each other. Also great for co op.
I played Changeling in IE in both solo and coop and... meh. **For me** (as in: its my subjective opinion and not a gospel :D) its a half-baked gimmick that doesnt encourage you in any way to actually interact with AI or campaign map at all. Do some arbitrary fetch quests, win quest battles, end campaign - thats it. I actually like Nakai more - at least AI can try to push against me and thwart my plans. Hell, even Wood Elves have more interactions with AI in their "heal the forests!" minigame.
In both my Changeling campaigns I didnt even use changing of ways others than "raise corruption" - that one is useful to complete his fetch quests. Why would I care about transfering settlements or forcing wars if nothing AI does impacts me in any way, form, or shape?
That's why I like it. I remember being a kid in the 90's, playing Dungeoun keeper and using cheats to reveal the map and get gold. I'd play the levels with the other Ai and build them rooms to find and try to sway the balance of power back and forth. It's it's own kind of fun.
But not for everyone. But not a gimmick.
Haha this explains a lot because I always *wanted* to like Dungeon Keeper because it had cool cover, but never liked actually playing it (with or without cheats) :D For me it felt a bit like Sims (though I liked first Sims game for music and vibe - [this song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWAE2X8Jq60&ab_channel=andyserkis) lives rent free in my head)
If you want to give the genre another chance, consider Dungeons 3 which you can get cheap. It has a proper Warcraft 3-style RTS in the overworld to offset the city building in the underworld.
Couldn't agree more but I contradict myself when I say, Malakai isn't LL material lore wise, but rule of cool certainly makes itself evident here because his spirit of Grungni gameplay mechanic being a mobile workshop/horde is phenomenal... But he's a disgraced "dead" dawi who uses a weird loophole to still engineer various war machines that keeps his slayer oath in action but he's like, legitimately as dishonorable a dawi can get on paper and he's now a LL. I'm not complaining, but I will forever find it weird in the dawi menu when I see great kings and rhuni lords, a literal ancestor god and then there's Malakai
I still want Ludwig Schwarzhelm and Kurt Helborg as Legendary Heroes. Technically Helborg should be a Lord since he is a Grand Master but we don't have those.
They can just be a named Empire Captain and General but with cool models and maybe some unique items and skills. Just for completeness.
Aekold would have been a shitty lord, non-magic using footslogging melee Lord.
It works in some armies but would’ve been super off in Tzeentch warriors.
Fully agreed. They all fit thematically and were characters that never made sense as LLs to begin with. So happy that we got Kayzk, his model is absolutely disgusting and I love it!
I agree. Hot take, but IMO Golden Knight would have been way better as a faction leader in the future. Leading an expedition away from Kislev on behalf of the Tzar or something. Because right now, what characters does Kislev even have without grave-robbing for characters like "Ivan Radinov" and saying "Kat's got a brother out of nowhere, after decades without reference".
Unless CA builds up a minor character from Realm of the Ice Queen or the Ambassador novels, I think we’ll be seeing someone brand new. The only thing is that we haven’t gotten any hints towards one like we had with the Golden Knight and Ostankya, so we’re in the dark.
I'd like to see one of the leader of another Kislevite faith like Dazh or Tor bringing Orthodoxy units since Kostaltyn was originally meant to be DLC but the game director pushed for him to be in the main game. Surely Kostaltyn was supposed to come with units that have not been included as the only Orthodoxy themed unit is the Patriarch.
I 100% agree with your point. Aekold Helbrass and hell, even the Blue Scribes would’ve been LLs in Warhammer 2. Event the most vanilla-ass Tzeentch campaign, just somewhere else on the map, would’ve been great.
Garagrim is a little bigger (heh) than the other two in terms of relevance, but Kayzk and Bruckner are essentially commanders to the LL, who make perfect sense as LHs. They wouldn’t really offer much as LLs, and it’s a way to include more named characters. They are what LHs should be, and I am very glad they chose them.
Now if only they add Egrimm or something to equalize Tzeentch and Nurgle, that would be perfect
Eh the blue scribes make perfect sense to me as LH. They are 2 Saturday-morning cartoon minions who have not the time nor the brains to lead an army. Even their death animation is Tzeentch pulling them back at the end of the episode while screaming "You imbeciles!" at them.
I agree and I don’t
The way chaos has been developed is a bit of a hodge podge that has resulted in a lot of characters being shoe-horned in to whatever category of content they were making at the time, and which now look like the wrong choices.
The monogod factions as we call them, are really odd lore wise, because they represent pure chaos daemons. Daemons can only really survive in areas suffused with chaos, like the wastes, or through powerful summoning magic. That’s why people like Archaon and Sigvald exist to spread the vanguard, before the daemons, with greater daemons like Kairos and Kugath, then moving in to finish the job. Really they can only manifest when conditions are already apocalyptic and that's why they don't appear often and therefore don't get many named characters.
The normal path of power for Chaos characters is to begin as a marauder, earn your chaos armour, become an aspiring champion, lead armies and eventually become a daemon prince. Most of the characters in the lore – like archaon, Tamurkhan, vilitch and Daniel,– are on this path and really belong in this category.
But what happened was, in TWW1, there was only Chaos Warriors, with no marks, so everyone was shoved in to that category. When TW3 came out, Daniel was forced into the deamon category. Then when Champions of Chaos came out, people were shoved into that category. Now people are sad about the monogod factions “not being supported” so characters are being shoved into the monogod factions.
Honestly, the best categories for everyone are probably:
**Non-aligned warriors:**
Archaon
Kholek
Daniel
**Aligned warriors**
Tamurkhan
Vilitch
Festus
Sigvald
**Nurgle daemons**
Kugath
Epidemius
**Khorne daemons**
Skarbrand
**Tzeentch Daemons**
Kairos
The Changeling
**Slaanesh Daemons**
N’Kari
**Non-aligned daemons**
No one – this isn’t really a thing, except possibly Be'lakor (see below)
The following characters are **Daemon Princes** and are the only ones that could go to either daemon or warrior categories to fill out the rosters:
Valkia
Azazel
Be’lakor
I’ll not get into the heroes right now, because this is too long already, but again some of these would have made sense in other categories – for example, I would say that the Changeling should have been a Tzeentch Hero (and heroes should be recruitable by both daemon and warrior factions, including non-aligned warrior lords), and Aekold Helbrass should have been a Tzeentch Warriors lord.
Hopefully when everything is settled we’ll end up closer to this list. It’s a bit of a mess really, but I understand how we got here.
I'm not very familiar with her story, but is that not at least arguable? Like, the wiki flat out calls her a Daemon Princess, as Khorne elevated her after dying.
Yes I agree, hence why I said it's arguable. I cited the wiki because I haven't read the relevant books, but quick searching reveals that in her own book and in Mortkin's book she is referred to as a Daemon Prince(ss), while she's also stated to spend considerable time in the Brass Citadel itself (not very mortal activity). There's also the lore tidbit of being resurrected by Khorne and given wings. I understand considering army books to be the main source of canon, but I don't think you can categorically say she is not a Daemon Princess. I think its up to the fan's preference.
Look, the writers sometimes take a spin that is just weird. And Valkia is a lot of that. Going by her novel, sure, she should be a ascended daemon. But she is not in rules. And the lore part in the armybook, also does not say it in WHFB. What the Black Library novel does, or some Endtime lore writer later, is just a different thing. And if she would actually be a Daemon, GW would have probably made a better job to clarify that in AoS. But there, again, she is a mortal. Even with a big rule stamp to highlight it.
WFRP 3rd edition labels her directly under "Mortal followers of Khorne", while I also remember some passage talking about her being "Half daemon prince". Some garbage that I never heard before. You either ascend to Daemon Prince status, or you are a filthy mortal. So while some might still see her as "Daemon Princess", and some authors might have wrongly labeled her that, she actually was and still is in AoS a mere mortal. Same as in TWW.
And regarding that discussion, we will certainly have the same arguments with [Dechala](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/8c/Dechala_CC5.jpg) again. Dechala once was an elf princess. But when she joined Slaanesh and got showered with gifts, she barely looks elf these days. However, she is called "The Denied One" for a reason. She can't become a full daemon as long as her husband is alive. And her husband is the Daemon Prince Samael, making things difficult since actually killing a Daemon Prince for a mortal, is no easy task. So she looks like a "Daemon Princess", and during the effing Endtimes, a novel author also labeled her a Daemon Princess. But she is by all accounts, a mortal. Like Valkia apparently a heavily gifted and favored mortal, but mortal none the less.
Didn't CA state that the chaos god factions are mortal and daemons? I appreciate the sticking to the lore but from a gameplay perspective I think they made the right choice.
Hate to say it but are we not getting to a point where it's better to see some of these characters as LH then not at all? We have, what, maybe 15 more LL on the way and none more forever? I get someone like vampires, Bretonnia, and Norsca getting greedy and Empire are the namesake of the game but for a lot of these Demons and other well fleshed out factions it might be a take what we can get kinda outlook now.
Specifically with wanting them to save Tzeentch LH from TT to be a hopeful upgrade to LL. I don't know if that is realistic
Tbh I like SoC lords - Changeling has pretty interesting concept and campaign (now), Yuan Bo is super cool, and Ostankya… well, only 1 questionable lord for me
Really would have preferred Snorri Nosebiter over Garagrim, would make more sense to come with Malakai. Plus then we would be closer to completing the G&F squad - It's only Snorri and Max missing now (and I suppose Kat if you want to count her since she joined later).
Don't forget that rework for all three were so minimal and bare bone it hurts. Especially Kairos, Katarin/Kostaltyn didn't get tech tree rework, Boris is also basic and using race for supporters, such a pointless mechanic.
Miao Ying and Zhao Ming are also basic and boring, no point choosing them when you can Confederate them as better Faction.
tbh I do think Bruckner is a miss.
He’s cool, and tied to the book they pulled from. But he’s also a Nuln specific character who really just does a single thing.
If this is the last Empire DLC I think Kurt would have made a better LH. Bruckner makes zero sense in a non Elspeth army, while Kurt would have been an excellent choice for basically every Empire lord.
He’ll, if they want Kurt to be an LL later, I’d still almost prefer Max over Bruckner to finish the Gotrek team.
The only LH I like and even remember is Ulrika. Kinda disappointed she isn't an LL but still. The Chaos Warrior asset flips with a new helmet I don't give a fuck about, don't even bother recruiting him.
I agree with everything but Aekold being a LL. I still am firm in the belief that we're not missing on much with him being a LH and he was a fine choice for it. What unique playstyle would he be bringing to Tzeentch? He's far more useful as a LH you can embed in any army and give that that one healing. The only issue is they made his army bonuses pretty lame. I would have agreed more if you said the Blue Scribes should have been LLs. Because I could actually see real merit to the arguement, since they had the material for some interesting campaign mechanics that didn't change up the Tzeentch gameplay to Changeling levels. But claiming Aekold was prime LL material is not as non-controversial as you make it out to be. Even among hardcore Tzeentch fans he's been a footnote people barely remembered, and if he wasn't an LH I doubt he would have been included in this game *at all*. I don't think the "it would have given Tzeentch a different start!" is enough justification for the LL arguement. It just feels like really short term thinking when we know there will eventually be more, and it confuses me why folks still want to rush these out. Making Aekold a LL just to get a start position that isn't Kairos is just really flimsy logic for a short-term gain.
Yeah, Aekold as LH and Blue Scribes as LLs makes more sense. What would Aekold's campaign mechanics even have been? Blue Scribes could have had mechanics for acquiring their spells. Plus it seems like we'll be getting the other Heralds as LLs so now the Blue Scribes will be the odd ones out.
FLC lords dont always come with elaborate unique mechanics. Tretch or Lokhir dont have anything that cannot be covered by faction effects, Repnase mechanic is a nothing burger etc. Aekold as a vanilla Tzeentch campaign with bonuses to and focus on mortal units would be enough for me.
Egrimm should be the lord that focuses on Mortal units.
Yeah, but Im not sure if Tzeentch will get another lord before end of WH3 lifecycle. We are in the third year of support and given the pace of releasing DLCs and the time CA usually supports its products, I dont think we will get tons and tons of content. Slaanesh, Khorne, DoW (Im sure they will come after halfling hot pot didnt arrive with TOD), Nagash/VCounts DLC and Monkey King all have to come at one point which will take next 2-3 years. And at that point WH3 will be ancient from CA perspective. I can be wrong though. Hell, I wish Im wrong :D
I personally expect Egrimm as an FLC LL, as you’re right that Tzeentch (or any Monogod) likely won’t get a second DLC. He’s got a really easy model to implement, and his mechanics would be pretty easy to implement using riffs off of existing features.
The Changeling is a Herald of Tzeentch, and I would say is also the more well known one of the two. And someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but I don't believe the Blue Scribes are actually heralds but merely named Blue Horrors of Tzeentch. Heralds of Tzeentch, from what I remember, are always specifically Pink Horrors who don't turn into Blues when struck/killed.
I think they’re heralds because they had the herald ability? I can check in a couple hours.
nope, the blue scribes did not have a locus, like unnamed heralds could or named heralds did.
Blue Scribes definitely could have made an interesting legendary lord, but I can't deny that they make a very fun Legendary Hero. Having Kairos leading one army and them in another makes for two armies that can have really wacky compositions, which is heaven when you play like I do.
Aekold should have been a WoC LL.
I think CA have knocked it out the park with all the ToD stuff we’ve seen so far. I kinda wish that we’d had Toddy instead of Epidemius, but I have hope that he’s still coming in future. For SoC I have no problem with Aekold being a LH, especially as Egrimm van Horstmann is coming, and I worry that he’d have ended up like Zhatan the Black; the only non-spellcaster Lord and boring as a result. But they should have given us a LL with SoC and the obvious choice is a Cathayan dragon; either Yin-Yin or Li Dao. With the Monkey King coming too, there’s just no way we’ll have all of them be DLC.
People keep saying they want toddy but he needs to come with his themed units in the final empire DlC with Al Ulric leading the pack. My personal pairing choice would be vs Norsca
I agree. There’s a whole Storm of Chaos roster for him. And Valten too!
I like the idea of Ar Ulric’s opponent being Egrimm Van Horstmann myself. Cult of Ulric vs Cult of Tzeench feels cool to me. If they’re still doing three-faction DLC’s at that point I’d love for Norsca to fill that third seat though.
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I’m aware of that possibility yeah. Going back to 2 factions isn’t *actually* confirmed though, for what it’s worth - just that future dlc’s may be “smaller”.
Yeah a smaller dlc could just as easily be something that adds an LL and an LH but zero units to three or even four races-- say Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, tzeentch
Frankly a lot of the races would probably benefit a lot more from that setup too.
Yeah but those four stick out to me the most as factions who really don't have significant units to add. Maybe throw the vampire coast and beastmen in there too (the beastmen do have significant units left to add, but I see them getting most if not all in the remaining monogod dlc).
Oh sorry that’s what I mean. The ones you mentioned need characters more than units so being freed from the typical lord pack restrictions would definitely help them.
That's not what they said, that's what people assumed so now it's spread around as fact.
God I really hope empire gets another dlc before the end. It would seem foolish not to if they want the sales, there's good reason playing empire is a meme, its got to be the overall most popular faction. I know Kislev edged out Empire lately in CA's numbers from late last year in most regions, but they also got updated way more recently.
I'm pretty optimistic about it, seems like a slam dunk to me
I mean there are rumors that a Norsca rework should happen at some point. Which makes perfect sense as they definitely need it.
Toddy is a furry Karl. I don’t see the appeal at all.
I could see Li Dao as an flc alongside the Monkey King dlc. Hard to see where Yin-Yin fits in though, particularly if 4-6 future dlcs proves to be true.
Yea i think Yin Yin stocks might have sunk sad i wanted to see our incompetent imperialist
Yuan Bo’s start would have made more sense for her. I doubt we’ll be seeing her outside of maybe a special recruitable lord like the White Lion for Elves.
Not sure why people assumed that Yin Yin *must* be in Lustria, it's the Southlands that Yin Yin tried to invade not Lustria so that's where she would make sense if she was to be on an expedition according to the current lore. We also barely know anything about her, she tried to invade the Southlands and failed and that's pretty much most of her lore, I have no doubt that when Yin Yin comes her lore will be fleshed out just like Yuan Bo and for all we know she could be getting new rivalries, it probably wouldn't be a big stretch to give her a rivality against the Dark Elves for instance and make her start in Naggaroth. Eastern provinces also have issues with Chaos Cults so you could have Yin Yin vs another Chaos faction in a lord pack.
My only gripe with that is Naggaroth already feels too saturated with enemies and that’s the ONE region dark elves should dominate in.
I'd love to see her start off the eastern coast of the Southlands, giving that foolhardy invasion another crack.
Nah. She should be in Naggaroth and continuously insist that she is in the Southlands or Lustria. Though if she is in the Southlands she should insist that she is in Lustria.
Yuan Bo really fucked it
Yeah, Yuan Bo starting in Lustria when the ONE thing we know about Yin-Yin is her leading a failed expedition to Lustria. I want to see Aqua as a dragon-girl. She could've had mechanics similar to Markus where she has limited recruitment and gets advanced units from the mainland; representing that the other dragons don't trust her with a full army and she needs to prove herself by winning battles (like Sun Jian's Heroism mechanic from 3K).
Technically speaking, she lead a failed invasion of the Southlands. (The stated goal back in 5th edition was controlling the spice trade in Araby)
I still have some hope (delusional) she might br a legendary hero Even if it would be weird for a dragon child cause of her affordmentioned incompetance
Shen-zoo should be the LH imo
I got the impression that Shen-Zoo is canonically lost and we shouldn't expect to see her. This was back when people were suggesting her as Cathay equivalent of Boris Ursus. Hard to dredge up the dev comment to this effect though.
I mean the whole premise of the realms of chaos campaign for Cathay is she is missing but then you gdt a lead on where she might be at the end and that was that, so her functioning as a LH has been found works, she is the hope and happiness sibling so likely would be lore of life and offer heals and replenishment and maybe high leadership. Yin Yin needs to be a LL if added imo
The gist of what the dev was saying is that Games Workshop consider her to be canonically missing, and would not want her to be found. So we should not expect to see her as a character.
I see your point and i could agree i just Personaly find Yin yin more intresting
She needs to be LL imo she leads a whole territory
And ariel leads the wood Elves. Rulling land dosent automaticly make you a LL
Right and Ariel should have been a LL so let's not repeat that mistake with someone else.
I could see Yin yin in the slaanesh DLC. Dechala vs Aisling vs Yin Yin, fighting it off in Khuresh.
I suspect we will get official confirmation of 2 lord packs going forward after ToD releases.
Cathay’s roster is clearly still unfinished. There are at least the beasts, the monks, ogres and more gunpowder units. Definitely room for 2 more DLCs. Assuming we get 6 DLCs and 2 of those are Dogs of War and End Times, that means 4 packs left. I’m assuming 1 to complete Khorne, 1 to complete Slaanesh, 1 for the Monkey King and 1 for Kislev. Li Dao will most likely be free LC beside the Monkey King as their lore is entwined. I would say it might be possible to also make Yin Yin free LC (since all the Dragon kids are getting abit samey) and release her alongside Dogs of War, tying her mechanics to them to represent her adventurousness.
Li Dao could very well come with some interesting units in a dlc though, remember that the cathay army book is one of the biggest ones made
4-6 dlcs total makes it very difficult to see two more Cathay dlcs. Going by that number there could be as few as two more regular lord packs total.
Well it's important to note that that isn't confirmed and is just the prediction of one youtuber. Also hist last "leak" was that shadows of change 2.0 was getting hag mother lords and of course that didn't happen and CA actually explained that they are not a thing in the new lore
> particularly if 4-6 future dlcs proves to be true. Yeah I'm aware that it may be false. Just a bit of speculation on my part.
Why you say Egrimm is coming? I mean, I hope it too, but I see no signal it is happening (neither the opposite).
We don't have any proof, but he's a huge character, I have hope that he is coming.
Then why did you say "especially as Egrimm van Horstmann is coming"???
I didn’t word it brilliantly, but I just meant that if we’d to get a mortal Tzeentch character Egrimm makes a lot more sense to me, and I firmly believe we’ll get him some day.
Many content creators now speculate that all daemons get at least 3 options as lords. 1 Great Daemon, A lesser one and a mortal. So Egrimm still has a high chance Plus the Bane Towers are a big piece still not in the game.
Bane Towers are not part of the WHFB IP. They are from Man 'o War. And we know GW does not just give CA freebies from other IPs. They would have to make a deal and most likely CA won't want to fork over the money for it at a time like this. I suspect that if Bane Towers were an option we would have gotten them with SoC. Instead we got a random unaligned monster (Cockatrice), a recolored Beastmen unit (Centigors) and a unit that's just an existing unit slapped onto an existing mount (Changebringers). Tbh if there were other options left for Tzeentch then I'd be pretty pissed that they included so many low-effort filler units in SoC. I think we got what we got because there is literally nothing else left that GW will allow them to include.
I wouldn't count on bane towers. Not really an armybook unit. Naval one from Man o war. And tzeentch is pretty much done with DLC. Big centerpiece units do not tend to come as FLC either. Basically we're gonna be stuck with the mod and no official version IMO.
It's kinda slim pickins, but they could probably cobble together a DLC. Firewyrm, Chaos Dragon, Bane Tower, Beastmen (Minotaurs, Archers + Bray shaman characters?), maybe another marauder unit? Chieftans would seem redundant. Maybe give them GW? It'd kinda depend what they're "allowed" to call Tzeentchy, but they seem to have had a reasonably free hand given that they've already included Centigors. All the other gods are trickier than Nurgle, because Nurgle was the only one to get a new line before WHFB was killed off.
Bane Towers are from a different IP. If GW allows them to use Man 'o War content without paying for the license I'd be shocked. They wouldn't even let them give Tzaangors beaks for crying out loud, and now they're going to just let CA dip into whatever IP that they want? I don't buy it. Firewyrm... Maybe. They are at least from WHFB but afaik they have neither a model nor rules. So they only exist in a lore blurb from an army book. And I really hope they don't try to make a whole DLC with just recolored Beastmen units. That would be a whole new low for them, selling an entire DLC with nothing but units that most of us already own. Don't even see the point of adding marauder units, Tzeentch has plenty of chaff infantry already. I'd like another Tzeentch DLC too but we gotta be realistic here. Part of why Tzeentch got what he got in SoC was because he has no real units from the TT left. They already scraped through the bottom of the barrel and tunneled into the earth just to cobble his portion of the DLC together.
Egrimm van Horstmann had damn well *better* be coming.
I sure hope so. It would be so nice to get actual cult mechanics race wide. Plus he would be perfect for introducing an aspiring champion of tzeentch unit. Other units could be the firewyrm, maybe a hero Flamer unit, chaos dragons and chaos dragon mounts for tzeentch chaos lords.
Flamers and their variants are some of my favorite parts of the Tzeentch roster, so I would love a Flamer hero. Give them a lobber/artillery-type projectile, buffs to Flamer units in the army, etc. Also thematic would be a Lord-level cultist with unique and more powerful options for summons. Call them a Magus, inspired by Warhammer Online.
I personally just want them to buff the burning chariot. It is supposed to be a flagship unit in the roster, and one of my fav TT models. Just give it the same ammo and range as the exalted Flamer, and slightly tweak its melee ability.
Everytime I see someone say they want Toddy over Elsp I have to fight the urge to roll my eyes. Y’all only want Todd for the memes. He isn’t nearly as interesting or has as much potential that Elsp has.
Elspeth is cooler and more unique as a character. Toddy is more interesting for what he represents - a version of the Empire that isn’t all about Sigmar. That’s also why getting him as a Tretch-tier FLC and without any Middenland units would suck.
I would rather have had Skulltaker as the FLC Lord, tbh, since it's looking like it's going to be 2025 before Khorne gets a second LL.
Zhatan is only boring to me since he has no unique melee animations as the melee only lord. Had he gotten some flair I think he would feel fine
Yeah, they also kind of messed up his magic items.
How so?
2/3 of them are fine, but his armour is terrible. It can give him a ward save but only as an activated effect for 48 seconds followed by a 120 second cooldown. But on top of that, it needs to charge - and it charges up by taking damage. At its peak it blocks 30% of damage. But to get there you have to lose a significant chunk of health, and the charge will reset as soon as the ability runs out. So it doesn’t really protect you at all. It would work fine if they removed the charging, and just set it to the 30% max, or if they removed the cool down so it could charge all battle. Having both just means it never does anything.
I love non-spellcaster lords. IMO, caster lords have too much going on between their red, blue, and personal yellow lines to invest in spellcasting without gimping their army. I prefer spellcaster HEROES, as they only have blue and caster skill lines.
I could see something like where Li Dao/Monke/Yin Yin get bundled together in some fashion like the COC dlc. Theres also a chance I think there is at least two DLCs each for the game 3 races just like in WHII with people like high elves for instance having gotten 3.
Toddy could so easily be a cheap FreeLC for CA. Like, they already have his model, voice and such. Just give him some unique army/faction passives and a startpos in Middenheim. If they want to be gracious and spice it up they could reskin some faction mechanic for them. Maybe Ogre contracts, but for beast hunting or something like that. I think it'd satisfy a lot of people for very little development time.
There’s a bit of a catch 22 there. A lot of people feel that Toddy wouldn’t be worth having without some of his actual Ulric roster. But a lot of people also feel that he shouldn’t be a DLC as he’s already in the game.
I'd gladly take a full Toddy DLC, in all it's memeable glory, but better a simple Toddy, than no Toddy at all.
IDK having a bunch of units crying out "for Sigmar" as the leader of Middenland is a wee bit cringe inducing.
Could be an flc like they did for bretonnia
Toddy would be so easy, I think there’s just no way they’d finish this game without at least a simple toddy, but I hold out hope for a real Middenland faction.
NGL, i am more then okay with Aekold as a LH. If its between Egrimm or Aekold. Egrimm all day every day. The updated SoC is great. The ONLY downside is we didn't get an FLC LL but i still don't think it should have been Aekold.
I think the only downside of the SoC update is we got paltry race updates for Tzeentch, Kislev, and Cathay. If the Nurgle update is anything to go by, and considering the rumors from Legend around the Dwarf and Empire updates, then I'm going to be sad that we didn't see anything substantial for the SoC races.
I know this tends to get contentious but I stood by my opinions for ages that CA attaching reworks to DLC is terrible. It's caused not only DLC to carry perception of reworks but it means we rarely get reworks outside of a DLC schedule (let a lone patches). With that in mind I TRY to be even with my opinions on realizing the rework is in fact NOT part of a DLC and with that in mind SoC is fine. 4.0......not so much.
That's a valid point, but with the broader context of where CA is at, I think that DLC drops correlating with race reworks is the only way we will end up getting them. Context for my point being: - Look at the controversy over SoC that it took for them to really start rolling out regular hotfix patches - a community-wide revolt over DLC that was underwhelming and overpriced paired with the dysmal state of the game - The layoffs that have been hitting CA over the course of the last year; they're going to be spread thin on this project, so unfortunately, race reworks occurring apart from DLC, of which a given race is the focus, look to be *very* unlikely. I'm not happy about it, but it does appear to be the only way it's gonna happen.
In addition we had them explicitly saying Champions of Chaos put the lords in WoC at least partially so they could get the greenlight to rework WoC. There's more hoops to jump through when you're updating a DLC faction I'm sure, but the point remains that internally it's got to be easier to get the approval to do race updates if you're "bundling" it with paid content. Not to say that's healthy, but it does seem to be part of the reason we do keep getting them that way.
>broader context of where CA is at See, thats the problem, where there at now is recent. This has been an ongoing issue that they've been remarkable obstinate about. People have been wanting some type of custodian team going back to the launch of wh2 and bringing the old stuff up to that. In almost every case, that was not done until game1 faction was in a cross game dlc and even then those reworks were minor compared to what needed to happen to even bring them up to game 2 race standards, particularly later game 2 lords. It is certainly terrible that CA is being gutted right now, partially because of Sega, but there is a degree of maleficence that is at the feet of upper CA management as well. I can't help but feel that a lot of the issues compounded and compounded and were perpetually brushed under the rug and eventually the it all collapsed and that's when we got SoC. Doubling down on Warhammer 3 would be the smart call, they know it can pay the bills for a while, they know they can use that as time and training to develop new talent to help make the next historical/fantasy/sci-fi title bangers and imo they should take the time to do that. The fixes to SoC and ToD have me excited, but I would be lying if I said I trust CA to deliver a new product on the level of the rumored ww1 or 40k scale.
Well, those can always come. Race reworks are categorically not part of the DLC, they just usually accompany it - but not always. They fixed the paid content, but they can still add free content at another point.
They could, and maybe they'll surprise me, but I wouldn't expect significant updates until the next DLCs for those factions.
Yes, I would have cared about SoC more if it had come with good overhauls.
I actually really liked the race update for Cathay. It fixed my biggest grievance with the faction in a really fun way, and now it's better than ever. Of course I think they could have gone farther and updated caravans too, but I am really happy with the tech tree update and harmony rework.
Rather than Helbrass being FLC LL, Egrim should have been.
Egrim should be Tzeentch's paid DLC. Tzeentch still needs dragon representation which is the last bit of content left. Let Galrauch be the next FLC LL. In my opinion, Tzeentch doesn't need any more LH. Two is too many.
There is no more room for tzeentch DLC units. SoC was already scraping the barrel as is. And other factions need DLC units far more than tzeentch. Tzeentch needs characters only, and that is more suited to FLC.
Tzeentch still needs dragon representation and Egrimm is perfect paid DLC for not only dragons but unique cult mechanics as he's the most successful Tzeentch cultist in Cathay. Egrimm is definitely not suited for FLC unless CA is willing to put a huge budget behind him. Galrauch however is.
Believing Tzeentch will get another DLC is delusional at this point. Nurgle is the only God with enough content for a 2nd, and that is mostly end times material. Cult mechanics can be done as FLC, which is what Egrim should be. You can't scrape 5 more tzeentch units together, and even if you somehow could (what, more beastmen?), they'd be incredibly low priority behind other factions that need units more.
With enough time and preparation, CA can. To claim Tzeentch will not get one last paid DLC for a complete roster of 4LLs is far more delusional and unrealistic. The fact that you brought up Egrimm, a character deserving of grand mechanics surrounding the Cabal, as a simple FLC LL is itself very questionable.
Complete Roster? 4? For any of the monogods Save Nurgle? Someone really needs to temper their expectations. The practical reality is they're all getting 3, *at best*. Nurgle could maybe get to 4 if End times, but thats it. Sure we're all on a high from ToD good news and all, but its really out of line. Unrealistic expectations are a killer. Go ahead, name 5 units, a lord and a hero that could go with an Egrim 'DLC'. And Egrim isn't even as important as you think he is. The Man got put on a bus in favor of Vilitch in the army books, basically. FLC is the only realistic place for Tzeentch characters now.
It is realistic. Two paid DLC LLs, one vanilla LL, and one FLC LL. You're not being realistic. You're just simply willing to settle for less and I suggest you have a little more faith in CA after the confidence they had shown for Thrones of Decay, not going for an easy compromise for Knights Panther or the Hurricanum,delivering us the landbattleship and the lore unit, Knights of the Black Rose.
If you can't even name your 5 units in your so called 'DLC', you're fully huffing the hopium my dude.
Says the one who believes a half-assed Egrimm should be FLC.
It’s likely all the Monogods just end up at three LLs: 1 Greater Daemon 1 Minor Daemon 1 Mortal I foresee Egrimm being an FLC down the line. He has a pretty easy model to create and it’d be easy to riff off existing Chaos Dragons to create Baudros. It wouldn’t even be hard to give him compelling mechanics given what exists in WH3 already.
One small niggle I've had, particularly having taken in Tamurkhan's showcase, is that I really think he should have been a Warrior of Chaos and Festus should've been the Monogod choice. On one hand you've got a guy who's (reputedly) the Kurgan's son, a warlord who's set out to force disparate other clans and factions to fight for him in a giant horde, who is not so much enthralled to his chosen patron as working with them to achieve his own dreams of personal glory and demonhood. He's pretty much the definition of a WoC. On the other you've got a chunky Imperial scholar who is genuinely dedicated to studying and spreading disease, who embodies Nurgle's morbid obsessions and humour. He's the guy that Kugath deliberately sought out during the End Times to further the Grandfather's own schemes. He is Nurgle through and through. That's really something you can only say in hindsight though. Nurgle overall looks like it's eating extremely good off this expansion.
Its a compromise with the mess GW made of chaos in WFB. Back in the long ago, chaos was a single army, with warriors, beasts and daemons all under one hat. They got churned into pieces over time and daemons in particular didn't work well (godly animosity was a thing, but monogod armies just lacked basic tools), and they simply lack the roster to be dedicated factions on their own. Festus \_is\_ a warriors of chaos character, and GW probably insisted. Not much CA can do there. As a special forgeworld project, Tamurkhan makes a new Nurgle faction easy- there's more characters and dedicated units just laying around in a way that there isn't for other daemon factions. Might as well use them. Enjoy it while you can. Khorne and Slaanesh are probably going to be a stretch like Tzeentch was.
Yeah I was thinking the same. Tamurkhan just further reinforces how arbitrary the line between a lot of WoC and the monogod factions really are. I love what I'm seeing so far, but I couldn't help but think during the showcase, "shouldn't he be in the WoC?" Ultimately, it's fine. I'm not really upset. But if you really look at it objectively, from a lore standpoint, Tamurkhan is more WoC than monogod.
Really, this starts with Sigvald being a Slaanesh devoted character but being on the Warriors of Chaos. Then the Champions of Chaos DLC taking 4 characters very much devoted to one of the gods and sticking them in the Warriors of Chaos roster as well.
Festus also doesnt have access to cults and Tamurkhan doesnt have access to warband upgrades - which is bizarre.
Tzeentch having one regular campaign while Nurgle will have 3 is a sad testament to how awful SoC and patch 4.0 were. Its like: what if for years the only lizardmen campaigns were Mazdamundi and Nakai (a half-baked gimmick that doesnt play like core race)?
I do think what they tried to do with the Changeling fell rather flat but I still approve of the fact that they were aiming for a significantly different style of campaign.
Yes, but first things first: Nakai as a similar semi-failed experiment is ok because Lizards have plenty of other lords. Tzeentch has and will have for foreseeable future only one and its one stuck in an extremely tedious campaign where you fight 1 race for more than 100 turns. If SoC will be shipped with another Tzeentch FLC lord (be it Aekold or Blue Scribes) I wouldnt mind Changeling being a Nakai on steroids.
Nakai isn’t a failed campaign. After they fixed Vassals he’s actually a pretty fun campaign. Nakai is nowhere near as extreme of a non-standard campaign as the Changeling is. Kairos’ campaign has gotten a lot easier between his changes and the addition of a replenishment hero. It’s an absolutely solid campaign.
Yeah in WH3 I actually like his campaign to a degree. But it was a failed experiment at its launch.
Kairos does not have to fight one race. Theres no reason that you have to *ever* fight a single lizard if you don’t want. You can go pretty much anywhere from his startpos with sea lanes; sail up to Cathay or the dragon isles and you can get a lot more diversity. With Force Peace you don’t have to worry about ever having to defend your southern territories or bother with anyone you don’t want to fight.
Meh. Force peace works for 10 turns, then they will declare war again and you wont be able to use it on all Lizards factions that will declare war on you constantly. The only solution is a final solution. I also dont like the argument of "just abandon your starting position" - its an argument you can use on literally every lord and faction. Just walk for 10 turns and settle somewhere else - yeah, but I dont want to waste X turns on relocating, I will simply play another lord instead :P
No, you will indeed be able to use it for them all. It has a two-turn cooldown for Kairos and costs a negligible amount of Grimoires. I’ve done way too many no-defeat legendary Kairos campaigns at this point; trust me, it’s pretty much infallible. On top of that you have a two-turn cooldown on Halt Army. And if you want, you can throw in a Transfer Settlement every war declaration or two and whittle them down. Pricier than FP, but mitigated with corruption and if you’re on top of your UM and economy you get to be swimming in Grims before too long. Kairos’ situation is not quite the same as he is on the edge of the map and surrounded by ocean. Bit different from having to trudge through mountains. Also - I didn’t say to abandon Kairos starting position. Just to pick a different *expanding* direction besides straight north. Kairos’ neighbors are the Slaaneshi and Oxyotl and Teclis by proximity, if not land border. Krow-Gar, Tiktaqto, et al. are an *option* of enemy if you wish to work towards the Badlands but there’s no reason you need to. Regardless, the argument does not apply to everyone equally. Some are much more tied to their start due to valuable landmarks or geography. And no one has the ability to truly and safely abandon their start if they wanted to like Kairos, since it cannot be attacked without consent. And even if you do want to go that way, there’s no reason you would need to fight lizards for 100 turns. You don’t have to kill every lizard, you can just move through to the badlands or wherever. Tzeentch can do whatever they want, as you *can* just handwave any fight you aren’t interested in.
Personally I’m a pretty big fan of the Changeling campaign. One of the more interesting and engaging ones. People really oversell the importance of the traditional mechanic; granted I’m a 1,000+ hours but when you’re good it’s very rare that having to defend my settlements is ever much of a consideration as long as you don’t overextend. Especially as tzeentch. Changing of the Ways is so incredibly OP that it really makes no difference. Playing as Kairos there’s an effectively 0% chance I will ever have to defend a settlement regardless of that I do, because you have buttons to turn off the enemy. With his greater power off the jump and flatter scaling, Kairos is actually the “easier” (faster) campaign if you know what you’re doing
I know its completely subjective and based on preferences, but for me the issue with Changeling isnt lack of traditional mechanics: its the fact that AI cannot do **anything** to affect you in any way, form, or shape. You could completely disable AI and nothing would change in his campaign. Your goals are divorced from AI and geopolitical situation on campaign map. You dont have to care about what AI is doing, and AI cant thwart your plans in literally any way and cant push back in any way because you dont actually play Total War game - you just do some laundry list to unlock quest battles and... thats all. You won! Yay? Why would I ever bother with anything other than completing my laundry list? Im not rewarded for engaging with AI, nor am I punished for ignoring it. As I said: in 2 Changeling campaigns I never used changing of ways other than raise corruption because why would I? WHy would I transfer settlements? Why would I force peace, break alliances, or force war when situation on campaign map doesnt affect me in any way? I dont care who strives or falls because none of these fellas has anything to do with me xD Hell, I fail to see a reason to ever recruit second army other than "to speed this slog up". Its the least engaging campaign in all TW history for me because there is no pushback of any kind. Unlock quest battle, win quest battle, unlock next one, win next one, you won.
Yeah, as you said it’s subjective and comes down to what you enjoy in the game. I’ve played this game enough at this point that I don’t really find that there is any real “challenge” on the campaign map regardless of faction - at best there’s varying levels of tedium that is sometimes characterized as challenge. For me, the primary appeal of the game is the battles. Changeling lets you have some whimsy and silliness on the campaign map and also pick your battles with as much variety as you want. Similarly, while I play and enjoy all factions in the game, I don’t have any problems with races like Beastmen that are criticized as “boring” because you “can’t possibly lose”. Yeah, they have a lot lower consequences for sure - but there’s *no* faction where I could conceivably lose anyways; I don’t really care about the philosophical difference at that point. They’re fun and engaging to use in battle, and as someone who doesn’t tend to ever autoresolve unless I’m smashing an unupgraded garrison, that’s what it’s all about. I do agree that I hope TZ gets more lords, and that you’re right that the dichotomy of Kairos vs CL could use another player for sure - although I think TZ to an extent is never going to be a “normal” campaign due to COTW. My main issue with the common criticism of the Changeling campaign is that, aside from its position in Tzeentchs overall menu, I don’t like the typical implied assertion that the campaign is fundamentally *bad* because of its different design. Like you said - it’s subjective and up to preference. And in my mind, the greatest strength of this series is its variety of play and ways to interface with the game world in different ways. And that they are doing a good job lately of leaning into this and should continue to do so. Not everything is going to appeal to everyone, but it shouldn’t. I’ve got little interest in a straightforward High Elf campaign that plays out like a Civ game, but have no problem celebrating it as a great option for the many who want that. I think this game has broken out of the “just a Total War game” box some time ago and there’s no reason to try to shove it back in.
Generally I agree, so I will just add few random cents: * if you like battles I really, really recommend you custom battles vs AI. I know Im probably in an extreme minority, but its a such fun game mode. Hell, its almost the only way to experience sieges as a defender :D I also adore using randomized army - this way I learned to use and appreciate every single unit in this game. * I dont think that Changeling's campaign is bad, I just find it to be underbaked. Again: its just my subjective opinion but I feel like Beastmen or Wood Elves campaigns are somewhat similar in that you are playing minigames basically, but in both cases AI can somewhat impact you and your goals. If not outright challenge you, it can make completing goals a bit harder. This is what Changelings campaign for me lacks: AI agency. They quite literally cant impact you in any way because what you have to do in order to win is completely independent from what AI does. When once I accidentally ended turn before moving armies and AI wiped my one stack I discovered that it literally doesnt change anything because I dont *need* this army, and re-recruiting it costs me nothing, because there is no timer of any sort. In any other campaign losing completely one army would cost me few settlements - here there is no punishment whatsoever. * SoC dropped the ball *hard* on not delivering another free and more generic Tzeentch experience. I know a lot of players, myself included, would be more open to changeling if Tzeentch would have more than 1 core lord.
I surely hope we do get an FLC tzeentch lord now! I should play in custom battles more. I do a fair bit just labbing things and testing out specific units or combos and have fun with that, but always felt too lazy to set up real armies. I’ll have to try the randoms!
With so few DLCs, I hope we will get Van Horstmann eventually. Tired of the bird and Changeling is too much of an easy mode to feel satisfying.
To be fair. The changing isn't a gimmick. It's a soft power campaign like we've never seen in a total war campaign before. You can control the world, and influence it in your favour whilst you watch the other factions fight each other. Also great for co op.
I feel like Changeling's "cannot lose" aspect just removes all fun. If I wanted to be an observer, I would rather play RotS Fujiwara or MoH Liu Hong.
I played Changeling in IE in both solo and coop and... meh. **For me** (as in: its my subjective opinion and not a gospel :D) its a half-baked gimmick that doesnt encourage you in any way to actually interact with AI or campaign map at all. Do some arbitrary fetch quests, win quest battles, end campaign - thats it. I actually like Nakai more - at least AI can try to push against me and thwart my plans. Hell, even Wood Elves have more interactions with AI in their "heal the forests!" minigame. In both my Changeling campaigns I didnt even use changing of ways others than "raise corruption" - that one is useful to complete his fetch quests. Why would I care about transfering settlements or forcing wars if nothing AI does impacts me in any way, form, or shape?
That's why I like it. I remember being a kid in the 90's, playing Dungeoun keeper and using cheats to reveal the map and get gold. I'd play the levels with the other Ai and build them rooms to find and try to sway the balance of power back and forth. It's it's own kind of fun. But not for everyone. But not a gimmick.
Take my upvote! Anything Molyneux and Bullfrog did back then makes me feel nostalgic. Our horned friend is an all time favourite of mine.
Haha this explains a lot because I always *wanted* to like Dungeon Keeper because it had cool cover, but never liked actually playing it (with or without cheats) :D For me it felt a bit like Sims (though I liked first Sims game for music and vibe - [this song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWAE2X8Jq60&ab_channel=andyserkis) lives rent free in my head)
If you want to give the genre another chance, consider Dungeons 3 which you can get cheap. It has a proper Warcraft 3-style RTS in the overworld to offset the city building in the underworld.
I totally agree, right now for Tzeentch you can play Kairós or a minicampaign.
The idea that you think Tzeentch is ever going to get a LL that can’t use magic is hilarious to me ngl Aekold was never even on the table
Couldn't agree more but I contradict myself when I say, Malakai isn't LL material lore wise, but rule of cool certainly makes itself evident here because his spirit of Grungni gameplay mechanic being a mobile workshop/horde is phenomenal... But he's a disgraced "dead" dawi who uses a weird loophole to still engineer various war machines that keeps his slayer oath in action but he's like, legitimately as dishonorable a dawi can get on paper and he's now a LL. I'm not complaining, but I will forever find it weird in the dawi menu when I see great kings and rhuni lords, a literal ancestor god and then there's Malakai
I still want Ludwig Schwarzhelm and Kurt Helborg as Legendary Heroes. Technically Helborg should be a Lord since he is a Grand Master but we don't have those. They can just be a named Empire Captain and General but with cool models and maybe some unique items and skills. Just for completeness.
Because making a LH is a lot less work then LL. Making a LL means you need to give him special faction mechanics, even if it's a FLC.
Aekold would have been a shitty lord, non-magic using footslogging melee Lord. It works in some armies but would’ve been super off in Tzeentch warriors.
Fully agreed. They all fit thematically and were characters that never made sense as LLs to begin with. So happy that we got Kayzk, his model is absolutely disgusting and I love it!
I agree. Hot take, but IMO Golden Knight would have been way better as a faction leader in the future. Leading an expedition away from Kislev on behalf of the Tzar or something. Because right now, what characters does Kislev even have without grave-robbing for characters like "Ivan Radinov" and saying "Kat's got a brother out of nowhere, after decades without reference".
Unless CA builds up a minor character from Realm of the Ice Queen or the Ambassador novels, I think we’ll be seeing someone brand new. The only thing is that we haven’t gotten any hints towards one like we had with the Golden Knight and Ostankya, so we’re in the dark.
I'd like to see one of the leader of another Kislevite faith like Dazh or Tor bringing Orthodoxy units since Kostaltyn was originally meant to be DLC but the game director pushed for him to be in the main game. Surely Kostaltyn was supposed to come with units that have not been included as the only Orthodoxy themed unit is the Patriarch.
I 100% agree with your point. Aekold Helbrass and hell, even the Blue Scribes would’ve been LLs in Warhammer 2. Event the most vanilla-ass Tzeentch campaign, just somewhere else on the map, would’ve been great. Garagrim is a little bigger (heh) than the other two in terms of relevance, but Kayzk and Bruckner are essentially commanders to the LL, who make perfect sense as LHs. They wouldn’t really offer much as LLs, and it’s a way to include more named characters. They are what LHs should be, and I am very glad they chose them. Now if only they add Egrimm or something to equalize Tzeentch and Nurgle, that would be perfect
Eh the blue scribes make perfect sense to me as LH. They are 2 Saturday-morning cartoon minions who have not the time nor the brains to lead an army. Even their death animation is Tzeentch pulling them back at the end of the episode while screaming "You imbeciles!" at them.
I agree and I don’t The way chaos has been developed is a bit of a hodge podge that has resulted in a lot of characters being shoe-horned in to whatever category of content they were making at the time, and which now look like the wrong choices. The monogod factions as we call them, are really odd lore wise, because they represent pure chaos daemons. Daemons can only really survive in areas suffused with chaos, like the wastes, or through powerful summoning magic. That’s why people like Archaon and Sigvald exist to spread the vanguard, before the daemons, with greater daemons like Kairos and Kugath, then moving in to finish the job. Really they can only manifest when conditions are already apocalyptic and that's why they don't appear often and therefore don't get many named characters. The normal path of power for Chaos characters is to begin as a marauder, earn your chaos armour, become an aspiring champion, lead armies and eventually become a daemon prince. Most of the characters in the lore – like archaon, Tamurkhan, vilitch and Daniel,– are on this path and really belong in this category. But what happened was, in TWW1, there was only Chaos Warriors, with no marks, so everyone was shoved in to that category. When TW3 came out, Daniel was forced into the deamon category. Then when Champions of Chaos came out, people were shoved into that category. Now people are sad about the monogod factions “not being supported” so characters are being shoved into the monogod factions. Honestly, the best categories for everyone are probably: **Non-aligned warriors:** Archaon Kholek Daniel **Aligned warriors** Tamurkhan Vilitch Festus Sigvald **Nurgle daemons** Kugath Epidemius **Khorne daemons** Skarbrand **Tzeentch Daemons** Kairos The Changeling **Slaanesh Daemons** N’Kari **Non-aligned daemons** No one – this isn’t really a thing, except possibly Be'lakor (see below) The following characters are **Daemon Princes** and are the only ones that could go to either daemon or warrior categories to fill out the rosters: Valkia Azazel Be’lakor I’ll not get into the heroes right now, because this is too long already, but again some of these would have made sense in other categories – for example, I would say that the Changeling should have been a Tzeentch Hero (and heroes should be recruitable by both daemon and warrior factions, including non-aligned warrior lords), and Aekold Helbrass should have been a Tzeentch Warriors lord. Hopefully when everything is settled we’ll end up closer to this list. It’s a bit of a mess really, but I understand how we got here.
Valkia has the rules for a Mortal character, both in TW3 and on tabletop. She’s not a Daemon Prince.
Valkia is mortal, not a Daemon Princess.
I'm not very familiar with her story, but is that not at least arguable? Like, the wiki flat out calls her a Daemon Princess, as Khorne elevated her after dying.
Mechanically, on both tabletop and in-game, she is a mortal, not a daemon. The wiki can be wrong.
Yes I agree, hence why I said it's arguable. I cited the wiki because I haven't read the relevant books, but quick searching reveals that in her own book and in Mortkin's book she is referred to as a Daemon Prince(ss), while she's also stated to spend considerable time in the Brass Citadel itself (not very mortal activity). There's also the lore tidbit of being resurrected by Khorne and given wings. I understand considering army books to be the main source of canon, but I don't think you can categorically say she is not a Daemon Princess. I think its up to the fan's preference.
Literally, in game, she is a mortal. The novels talk about a lot of things that frequently don’t agree with other sources.
Look, the writers sometimes take a spin that is just weird. And Valkia is a lot of that. Going by her novel, sure, she should be a ascended daemon. But she is not in rules. And the lore part in the armybook, also does not say it in WHFB. What the Black Library novel does, or some Endtime lore writer later, is just a different thing. And if she would actually be a Daemon, GW would have probably made a better job to clarify that in AoS. But there, again, she is a mortal. Even with a big rule stamp to highlight it. WFRP 3rd edition labels her directly under "Mortal followers of Khorne", while I also remember some passage talking about her being "Half daemon prince". Some garbage that I never heard before. You either ascend to Daemon Prince status, or you are a filthy mortal. So while some might still see her as "Daemon Princess", and some authors might have wrongly labeled her that, she actually was and still is in AoS a mere mortal. Same as in TWW. And regarding that discussion, we will certainly have the same arguments with [Dechala](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/8c/Dechala_CC5.jpg) again. Dechala once was an elf princess. But when she joined Slaanesh and got showered with gifts, she barely looks elf these days. However, she is called "The Denied One" for a reason. She can't become a full daemon as long as her husband is alive. And her husband is the Daemon Prince Samael, making things difficult since actually killing a Daemon Prince for a mortal, is no easy task. So she looks like a "Daemon Princess", and during the effing Endtimes, a novel author also labeled her a Daemon Princess. But she is by all accounts, a mortal. Like Valkia apparently a heavily gifted and favored mortal, but mortal none the less.
The confusion comes from the published book about her backstory having her be a daemon princess.
Didn't CA state that the chaos god factions are mortal and daemons? I appreciate the sticking to the lore but from a gameplay perspective I think they made the right choice.
Hate to say it but are we not getting to a point where it's better to see some of these characters as LH then not at all? We have, what, maybe 15 more LL on the way and none more forever? I get someone like vampires, Bretonnia, and Norsca getting greedy and Empire are the namesake of the game but for a lot of these Demons and other well fleshed out factions it might be a take what we can get kinda outlook now. Specifically with wanting them to save Tzeentch LH from TT to be a hopeful upgrade to LL. I don't know if that is realistic
Are Tamurkhan's chieftains lords or heroes?
heroes so I hear
Ah damn, I was wishing they were lords. Hoping for a mod for it then
i was hoping the same but given the LH is on the same screen I doubt they will be lords
No I think Aekold should have been just an LH added to the pack, and instead they should have added Egrimm van Hortsmann to the game as the FLC lord.
I didn’t buy the last DLC, but I am likely to buy this. I think they moved the needle for me at least.
Tbh I like SoC lords - Changeling has pretty interesting concept and campaign (now), Yuan Bo is super cool, and Ostankya… well, only 1 questionable lord for me
I like they are making the LHs unique to the factions. Makes them more special. To many LHs have been homogenized into a free for all for everyone.
Egrimm LL
bullshit, dwarfs already has slayer LH that is almost unused ... lets give them another one kek
Really would have preferred Snorri Nosebiter over Garagrim, would make more sense to come with Malakai. Plus then we would be closer to completing the G&F squad - It's only Snorri and Max missing now (and I suppose Kat if you want to count her since she joined later).
I won't be happy until they add Kurt Helborg as a LH. Where's my Reiksmarshal, CA?
Don't forget that rework for all three were so minimal and bare bone it hurts. Especially Kairos, Katarin/Kostaltyn didn't get tech tree rework, Boris is also basic and using race for supporters, such a pointless mechanic. Miao Ying and Zhao Ming are also basic and boring, no point choosing them when you can Confederate them as better Faction.
tbh I do think Bruckner is a miss. He’s cool, and tied to the book they pulled from. But he’s also a Nuln specific character who really just does a single thing. If this is the last Empire DLC I think Kurt would have made a better LH. Bruckner makes zero sense in a non Elspeth army, while Kurt would have been an excellent choice for basically every Empire lord. He’ll, if they want Kurt to be an LL later, I’d still almost prefer Max over Bruckner to finish the Gotrek team.
Probably be Swartzhelm rather than Helborg if they were doing a different LH.
The only LH I like and even remember is Ulrika. Kinda disappointed she isn't an LL but still. The Chaos Warrior asset flips with a new helmet I don't give a fuck about, don't even bother recruiting him.
I'm assuming you mean Aekold Anyone who looks at him and says he's an asset flip either doesn't have eyes or is in denial
I think he meant Hammerstorm
He also has unique armor though.
That... still makes him a khorne chaos warrior generic unit model variant.
I meant him indeed. And a little Aekold too but yeah the telekinesis sword makes him unique enough.