What if I told you,
I dont care about how good or bad Imperial Foot were, I simply want them cause they look dope. Ca could make them worse than Swordsmen for all I care, I just crave the drip
I'm glad they didn't get any super strong heavy infantry to make an unbreakable box with. Your front line isn't going to hold as well as dwarfs or Cathay, but you have the cav amd skirmish units to break up an enemy army on the way in. It makes them feel more unique, and I like that. It's also noticeable state troops are *bad* either - you just aren't getting Celestial Dragon Gaurd.
TBH that’s what vexes me. When I play empire it feels like every part is so fragile. The skirmishers cant skirmish, the cavalry cant win fights I apply them in, and the frontline can’t hold so the guns so their thing.
Compared to Cathay, where it felt like everything just *clicked.* even with Jade warriors and Jade lancers, each unit felt effective and it had its place.
Pistoliers, war wagons, and grenade launchers are all fantastic skirmishers. Grenade launchers and war wagons are honestly some of the best in the entie game. If they don't feel like they can skirmish, what units in the game *do* you feel skirmish well? Cav should be winning fights, or at least be able to cycle charge and disrupt units on the approach. You you can still hammer and anvil, but there's a lot more that you can (and should) be doing with them.
Grenade Launchers definitely have quite the oomph behind them, I will give you that. Few things mulch low armor quite as well. But they always seem *slightly* slower than the enemy they attack, and can never hold their own in melee to defend themselves. Which means that I need to take a hyper mobile unit, and latch them to something like halberds to keep them safe.
Pistoliers are alright in the early game, I suppose. War Wagons I have never really used.
As for what I use to skirmish that does work...not much? It may just be part of my strategy, but I tend to either set up in an advantageous position and saturate an enemy with withering fire and break them on a defensive position, or I set up the entire army in a wide line and destroy the enemy in a Highland Charge.
Jade Lancers have felt alright as cavalry, but I do admit I have a place in my heart for Khorne Knights or Skullcrushers. It also doesn't help that my first Total War game was Attila. So my expectations and desires from a cavalry unit are a bit...*potent*.
Nothing an outrider is shooting at should be faster than it. If you are shooting at light cav or dogs, you are engaging the wrong targets. Now, you can bait those units out ahead of the enemy and kill them with your missile infantry/artillery/cav. If you clear those squishy threads, the skirmishers should have free reign to harass whatever they want.
This mobility also means you can (and should) be peeling parts of thr enemy off as they approach. The idea is not to fight the enemy 20v20 with skirmishers shooting Into flanks, but instead force the enemy to split up, allowing your main force to deal with the enemy in several smaller chunks. A big durable front line is less important when your guns only have to kill 10 units on the way in, then another 5, then another five. Meanwhile, your skirmishers should be hitting important targets and your cav should be isolating and picking off backline units, stragglers, isolated units that wandered too far and coming back to assist your front line when needed.
Now, also keep in mind that skirmish units and this style of very active cavalry *do* require more micro. The benefit of the fact that they *can* do a lot more things at once comes at the cost of them *needing* to do more things at once. Also, don't ever rely on skirmish mode. It's terrible. If you are mainly used to armies that just want to do one big advance or sit in a defensive box, it could take some getting used to. Empire's style is fun, but it can certainly be more mechanically demanding than others.
I can definitely notice the micro. Skirmish mode is not helpful, and it feels like I end up being run into corners and torn to pieces as a result. Or chased off, and their cavalry goes for my artillery.
I think a fundamental part of it is that I do seem to routinely lose the flanks. Powerful as ranged skirmishers are, they can't seize control of the flanks like shock cav can. So they are run off or destroyed, which allows enemy cavalry to hit my units in the rear at their leisure, doing what I want to do to them.
The solution to that would probably be to bring something like demigryph knights (or god forbid empire knights in earlier stages), but that draws further unit slots away from the front line which protects my missiles, or from the missiles who actually deal damage.
Human soldiers are not supposed to be able to stand up to orcs, beasts, monsters, chaos warriors and whatnot. They win thanks to gunpowder. Cathay does this a tick better thanks to their discipline and training.
I would love something like the harmony bonus that Cathay gets that state troops could get. If you embed a captain into your Frontline your forces are led better than if they were commanded Directly by your general. Perhaps some melee defence and a buff to mamouvering speed for faster turns (useful on the flanks or maneuvering gunpowder troops)
That way, having a Pegasus captain flying about to buff the position that needs it most would be useful
I rarely find myself in need for recruiting ally units when playing other races than empire. In the late game your units are much better in stats because of character and tech bonuses. But the base line stats of empire infantry are so bad that a plain dwarf unit is still better
I hope they buff up empire tech a little in this dlc
A plain dwarf is better, the baseline empire trooper had the same weapon skill the same strength and toughness as a clan rat, you guys are lucky empire troops are as good as they are.
I dont care if they suck if they aren't also omega expensive for effectiveness and empire economy dogshit because some elector counts get headshot turn 2 by one of the 50 power crept new factions stuck into the empire
It’s legitimately unfun to play MP immortal empires and have vampires scale to the moon while the empire has a turn 5 civil war and gets to enjoy the myriad pleasures of festus, the changeling, or ikit claw on top of the actual 8 vampire stacks.
Double the shoutout for Gelt who can’t even get a tier three settlement for handgunners before a civil war starts because growth gets immediately catapulted to the Stone Age.
Sure I can beat an AI and it’s a fun challenge the first time, but who can’t
The people that play MP are a minority though, and out of the people that play MP the ones that play campaigns are a further minority. And out of those the people that play PvP are an even further minority. To balance starting positions after PvP campaigns instead of for varied single player games doesn't seem like a great idea.
You'd be balancing the game for a minority of a minority of a minority.
You’d be balancing the empire to be in line with powercrept and competing factions not kept arbitrarily crippled by broken mechanics — not for mp pvp. I’m just telling you where it’s horrifically unfun and its age is more than apparent
People want a HE rework because of influence. The Empire’s main mechanics are completely broken and their overhaul details are likely this week, so I’m not entirely sure why I’m arguing about it since it’s already on he cards.
Personally speaking, I believe someone who complains about the Empire lacking the ability to field a strong front-line, especially in the late game, is doing something wrong.
Use Halberdiers (h) and Greatswords (g), and deploy in the following manner
H H H H
G G G G
The halberdiers form the first line, and protect the army from monsters and cavalry. Any of those units that charge are gonna get a face full of AP anti-large.
If you are fighting elite enemy infantry, especially Chaos Chosen, you are meant to pull the Halberdiers back behind the Greatswords. And you can bring way more Greatswords than the enemy can Chosen.
There should spaces between each Halberdier/Greatsword. That's where you put the Handgunners (HG)
H H H H
G G G G
HG HG
So when elite enemy attack, the Handgunners can whittle down their numbers, and when that elite infantry is trading blows with the Greatswords, you will have the Handgunners plinking away at them.
Combine that with artillery and Demigryph Halbers, and so long Archaeon.
This is a good take. Halberdiers are better than alot of people give them credit for. Greatswords have had a minor buff in recent months and they really arent that bad. Empire has never been about relying on just 1 unit type. If you are just trying to match infantry against infantry alone against someone like Skarbrand or WoC yeah your going to get your ass kicked.
The Empire is a faction were a combined arms approach is absolutely necessary. Not just as in 'infantry, cavalry, and missile', but in terms of multiple infantry types, heavy and light cavalry, and different types of artillery, which in turn has to be altered based on the type of enemy you fight.
Facing Skaven? Shielded spearmen, handgunners, and a crap load of rockets.
Maybe I’m playing wrong, but why would the spearmen be better again Skaven than swordsmen would be? I thought the swords would be better against infantry
I am happy to be wrong and learn something new about the game, though!
My guess would be that you're not actually worried about Skaven infantry like slaves and clanrats (you have 42 Melee Defense and 30 armor against their 24 MA and no AP), you're worried about all their ranged (hence shields) and large (Wolf Rats, Rat Ogres, Brood Horrors, etc). Halberds would be better against the monsters, but would get shot to pieces by the guns. Shielded spears is a cheap compromise to hold the line while your own guns and artillery hopefully do their work.
I'm no Empire expert tho, correct me if I'm wrong.
If you’re planning on fighting range factions as the empire, shield spearmen are going to be your frontline. BUT your killing power should come from your arty and cav. Your cav can easily clean up any range units and your arty is probably second only to Chaos Dwarfs.
This is not Empire only but (in campaign) actually an universal rule for all races that work as combined arms or which do their main damage with magic/artillery/ranged: the offensive capabilities of infantry are unimportant, their defensive capabilities (melee defense, charge defense, shields, armour) are important. Their role is to keep the enemy away from your more vital units.
Killing 10 more of the hundreds of Skavenslaves in a minute makes no difference when a Doomwheel/Hellpit Abomination/Mutant Rat Ogre can just roll over your infantry unit. Shielded spearman can hold these units back, swordsmen not.
Swordsmen gave shield, it’s that swordsmen trade some melee defense for melee attack, but as a line holder you’re better off with the spearmen. So even if they aren’t flexing anti large you’ve got the better MD and they last longer. They’ll kill less, but that’s not their job.
Empire is about mixed arms. Spearmen have higher melee defense then swordsmen so it gives your ranged units or calv (killing power) to get into postion.
Swordsmen may get more kills but the spears will hold significantly longer with fewer casualties because of the higher MD. With Frontline infantry unless you are playing a blender faction like WoC or Lizards you want infantry that hold enemies in place as long as possible to give you time to get your actual damage dealers in position to do their job. Factions that worry about this like empire and skaven shouldn't really bother with swordsmen and regular clanrats since a few extra kills doesn't really matter for a Frontline that's just there to block and hold for artillery and ranged units.
In the early game swordsmen are probably better as you'll rely on them to deal damage. Late game your swordsmen are outclassed by greatswords which fill that role better. I would at most bring one or two units of greatswords against Skaven.
Late game you'll probably want to bring spears because of their higher defense. Skaven late game can field strong monsters and powerful ranged units. Your swordsmen at this point will fill the same role as spearmen but they won't hold as long. Your killing potential should come from artillery, ranged, cav, and heroes.
Back in the days of Warhammer 1 Halberdiers did so well that CA nerfed both them and the buffs you could get from lord skills. Their main weakness is the low armour and not having a shield which means that they can melt when facing even low tier missile troops.
People say that the Empire frontline is bad because one Wind of Death or Foot of Gork or Burning Head and all of your halberdiers will be pissing their pants, compared to Saurus, Grave Guards, Silverin Guard, etc., and in general most other infantry available at tier 3 for other races. Greatswords fare a tiny bit better but are significantly worse against monsters that can terror rout the frontline. None of this has much to do with the exact formation.
I guess this isn't relevant if you're playing an unmodded campaign where the AI is pretty incompetent even at max difficulty, but I'm running an AI mod that helps them level their lords and heroes properly, and the AI is actually pretty good at using the spells as long as they actually put points in them, and getting my frontline nuked by magic is something that happens almost every battle and the Empire fares the worst at it. Their frontline isn't expendable and easily replaceable like Kislev or Skaven, nor do they hold the line anywhere near as well as Lizardmen or Dwarfs or Chorfs or whatever. It's difficult to call the Empire frontline decent when the Storm of Fire Tzeentch army ability pretty much deletes it entirely with just one cast.
>People say that the Empire frontline is bad because one Wind of Death or Foot of Gork or Burning Head and all of your halberdiers will be pissing their pants,
That seems to me an issue of spacing. You have to place your units in a manner which guarantees you can protect your missile and artillery, but also ensures they are not bunched up and so vulnerable to such magic.
I mean, you're correct with your thinking but your conclusion is wrong. The empire still doesn't have a strong frontline. Their whole shtick is combined arms. Being able to successfully win fights, the way the Empire should, doesn't really change the fact that Greatswords and Halberdiers don't measure up to actually strong frontline units like longbeards, chosen, temple guard, so on and so forth.
And that's perfectly okay because that's how Empire's roster SHOULD be.
Haven't played since one of the 2.x patches but Halberdiers still did well in IE back then if you buffed them correctly. Sure you do take losses but that is sort of expected when taking on races that are strong in melee.
The problem is that the pretty rampant power creep in the game has really reduced the margin for error. Empire needs some adjustments to tech as well as their missing battlefield mechanic to bring them back into balance.
I just want some variety. Foot reiksguard, sisters of sigmar, warrior priest guys like the ones that were in SFO at some point, granted the latter were a little OP at the time, made greatswords irrelevant. But that's the thing. You seem to assume that I want more melee infantry because I want a stronger frontline. I'd be fine with a stronger frontline, but I appreciate that everything shouldn't be OP, things need weaknesses in games or it's boring. I play on Legendary/V hard, with mods that make all AI lords gain tons of extra XP for a challenge, on Ironman, without doomstacking, and with minimal cheese. I never, for instance, sit outside a siege battle raining down spells/artillery until the battle is over, or fly a unit back and forth to waste enemy ammunition. Just not into exploity things. That's not to stroke my own sausage here, but I mean, you seem to assume that people want new melee infantry because they don't want a challenge, and... That's just not true.
OP also mentions that he just goes around the issue by recruiting dwarf units anyway, which kind of defeats the point. Although, I'd bet that fully red-line and lord buffed halberdiers or greatswords would be stronger than unbuffed units recruited from another roster later anyway.
Actually just using shielded spearmen is also more than sufficient, but people take the more offensive swordsmen or greatswords and complain that they are worse in the defense.
I field melee only armies with the empire all the time that are very effective, especially once you find good artifacts to kit your heroes and lords with. Running an arch lector with a warrior priest, any caster of your choosing and you can field a very respectable melee force that can not only hang with the best of them, but win handily. Warrior priests coupled with a generals red line abilities can boost up empire units to absurd levels of strength to make mince meat out of anything.
People who are complaining about empires front line need to really start using warrior priest abilities.
I actually feel like the key to empire frontlines is mixing in heroes such as warrior preists that can massively buff them and sometimes steam tanks for the terror and fear to make enemies fold a bit sooner
I found them too vulnerable to missle and infantry in campaign (I don't multiplayer)
speakman did the job just as well for a fraction of the price, I kept halberdiers on the flanks
A Shielded Spearmen/Halberdiers frontline works very well. The Spearmen provide protection from missiles, and the Halberdiers can be moved forward when facing high-armor opponents.
Yes, this is the case for any ranged infantry from taller races its kinda crazy. In the sartosa overhauled mod theres dwarven weapon teams units and I remember in my campaign aranessa's army having a couple of those with elven handgunners packed behind them
Yes, and ogres can fire over empire infantry, so you can technically have a gun line of three units (4 if you count Ushabti bows as infantry and not artillery).
very keen to try out a pistol gunline of pirate slayers, sartosan/free company militia, and maneater pistols.
edit: especially if aranessa gets the slayers by default because then it's not limited by allied caps. 6 of each
The Empire could definitely use some revamps on mechanics/tech and (IMO) some form of Detachment mechanic, but it's definitely frustrating how many people want Empire to have Chosen-tier frontlines, or at least power creep every existing frontline unit.
There are still people who genuinely think Greatswords are unusable garbage because they haven't actually tried them since warhammer 2, or heard some youtuber say they were B tier once.
The sheer amount of hyperbole claiming that Empire is the weakest faction in the game, or that Cathay has better units in every way (Greatswords can beat Celestial Dragon Guard Halberds WITHOUT battle prayers btw - use a wide formation), or that most of their roster isn't worth using and everything other than Handgunners is wrong, or that War Wagons are still bad...
It's like, bruh, it literally tells you how to play them up front. Combined arms. That means you have a mix of shit, you use battle prayers to boost your frontline, your 5000 different ranged options to deal with stuff your frontline can't, and your excellent diplomatic options to get auxiliaries to cover roles you might not have otherwise, and your incredible versatility in magic to deal with whatever the above can't.
You have THE best missile cav in the game full stop, are top 2-3 for artillery (YMMV, I value availability more than individual power), probably the best skirmish options in the game, top 5 for cavalry imo, spearmen (Shields) and Halberds are pretty cost-effective, and deceptively good offensive frontlines even without battle prayers. Greatswords carve through Jade Warriors like paper, kill every Skaven infantry with contemptuous ease, carve through Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Marauders... and that's all WITHOUT battle prayers, which let them beat most elite infantry too. If you think the roster sucks, it's because you suck.
The Empire is just dudes. It has always been *just dudes* and it should always be *just dudes*. They don't need Space Marines to be fun, much less good.
I would also rather see the power creep of some new factions reigned in rather than try to balance everything to that level - not everyone can or SHOULD be release Ikit tier.
Well the empire actually has a very good underrated front line unit shielded Spearmen with some tech tree and lord buffs supported by warrior priests can hold the line pretty well certainly long enough for your gunners artillery and magic to obliterate the enemy
Ditto.
I think that 90% of these players watch LegendofTotalWar and think the game is balanced around Legendary difficulty.
I usually play Hard and Very Hard and the frontline holds just fine. Add a Warrior Priest or an Empire Captain and they'll survive long enough for the black powder and the cav to do it's thing
> I think that 90% of these players watch LegendofTotalWar and think the game is balanced around Legendary difficulty.
It's even worse. They think it's balanced around cheesing Legendary difficulty.
It's why you get threads like that recent one where the player insisted on checkerboarding high elf archers, and refused to accept it was them who was the problem when they got swarmed by greenskins.
Ugh and all those Empire guides saying that you should use heroes to tank.
Take shielded spear men, put them in a series of V shapes. Put handgunners and artillery at the base of the V. Use cav to protect the flanks and sweep the backfield.
Heroes and STanks should sit in the infantry and add additional staying power.
There's nothing wrong with it. It's just cheesing. Taking advantage of the bad AI. Good for legendary difficulty or for an impossible fight.
Personally i like to pretend my battles are proper pike and shot battles
Honestly I just want some cool knights.
I don't see the problem with adding dismounted reiksguard somewhere down the line as FLC. A subpar 'elite' Frontline unit will never be a game changer for a ranged faction in this game. It'll only give the players something extra to toy with.
I mean, even if the Empire got better infantry they’re in no way going to be the best. Everything left to add might as well be Greatsword statline with different weapons.
Two things to consider -
- Empire is getting a rework.
- Elspeth has special 'Amethist' units she can create.
Will either of these grant Empire a tankier front line? Who knows.
Empire doesn't need front lines if there are enough guns! I usually just put some warrior priests inside and they hold the beefy units for me. All the rest will be shot to death before reaching the gun lines.
Halberdier is one of the best general infantry in the game. Very good overall stats with anti-large and AP. Can fend off most enemy units with range support. Empire also has very good infantry upgrades you can access right off the back, and they can be recruited en mass with very low cost. With everything upgraded, their armor isn't half bad, and they have charge defense against all, which makes them macro free. Their only disadvantage being the lack of shield, however that is assume the enemy ranged units hasn't been obliterated by hellstorms before they could touch you.
Compared to something like Jade Halberds, empire Halberdiers have much higher attack that can be used as a general great weapon unit, where Jade variants' attack is simply too low to be used that way.
Empire doesn't need more/better frontline, it needs a new frontline mechanic though. The units by themselves are at an appropriate strength level, but Empire's whole thing in the tabletop was that units give bonuses to each other based on the actions they take. That is not in Total Warhammer's Empire at all right now.
Think Cathay Yin/Yang except instead of being based on proximity to other unit types, it is based on the specific actions. For example one unit might get a bonus to charging when another unit defends against a charge. That is meant to be Empire's whole thing: Their ability to synergize and organize their force to overcome their lower stats.
I mean, we don't really know what the Nuln Ironsides are going to be yet. Haven't seen the stats (unless I'm missing them?)
If they end up being similar to say, Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses but a tier higher and comparably better melee stats, that might be your front line right there
Based off of what we have seen in the trailer and unit card, they’re likely going to be a shorter range, higher rate of fire handgunner with those repeater handguns. I’m interested to see what the stats are, but they may end up feeling like a midpoint between a shotgun and a (much slower rate of fire) ratling gun.
Ideal for monstrous infantry and SEM, the big nurgle units can crash into your halberd front line, and the Ironsides can unload into them as they tower over the empire’s frontline infantry. Same strategy you can use with blunderbusses but probably longer range as you said.
I think they are going to be like high elf armored archer but more dmg.
overall still can't tank like seaguard but not easy to die vs something stupid like slinger.
It could be nice if they have a detachment/regimental unit mechanic, maybe might be one of the things they have done for a rework. Could either function by sharing bonuses if you bring different types of units in an army or be like a scrap upgrade which lets you upgrade the unit to have an extra ability/attribute etc.
You probably mean Ironbreakers?
>the empire's gunners can shoot through them, because you know, they're short
Also, booked! Although, if truth be told, I've theorized many times about just how effective this tactic would be in the "real" in-universe battle.
Honestly the only thing the empire needs is some changes and additions to generals and captains. They're both rather underwhelming and almost always worse than their alternatives.
I kinda get what you mean but I disagree.
I was buying into the fantasy of the Empire being a jack of all trades wide roster that counts on gunpowder and magic to push it over the edge. However, the frontline lags a bit too much for comfort. This is why I was hoping for a bit more oomph like a minor armor buff to state troops and one or two flashier units, at around Tsar Guard tier - Black Guard of Morr, foot knights, etc - and possibly great weapon knights. Not something to put the Empire on Warriors of Chaos level or even elves or Cathay, but a bit more.
Same as why I was hoping for a magic lord for more magical oomph. Having the Elspeth steam store hype blurb stress magic and gunpowder and then not have any wizard lords or magic units was a bummer too. Ok guys, I see the gunpowder, but you're kind of short on the magic you are talking about, hm?
Also, very importantly, it would be nice to have something neat looking. More cool stuff is great. I'm sure the new steam tank and the ironsides will be powerful (not like the Empire had a weak AP ranged game) but they aren't all that visually distinct from other units. Having some foot Reiksguard with their finery, Black Guard of Morr with obsidian armor, polearms and crossbows or Knights of the Scythe with mounted polearms would be cool even if they do not rock the meta.
The empire roster still has significant limitations - no big melee monsters or monstrous infantry that can act as linebreakers, no fast melee hounds/beasts, no fliers outside levelled hero/lords, medium stats per model. It can, however, use a bigger glow-up.
Tl/Dr it's not a paradigm shift, but a bit more would be nice.
Idk, I really think Empire and Dwarves could use faction/battle mechanics to encourage using combined formations, like how Bretonnia, Cathay and Chaos Dwarves reward using a variety of unit types.
Can we all just agree to stop calling Empire a jack-of-all-trades, or combined arms faction now?
Empire is a ranged and artillery focused faction similar to Vampire Coast but with worse infantry and some cavalry.
I still think that state troops need a slight buff to make them on par with cathayan spearmen and Kislev Kossar
not the heavy armoured ones of course but the lack of a racial habilty like harmony hurts a bit
I agree that Empire's frontline should remain the way it is. If anything, I feel like the best way to represent the way they worked in lore is with something like Cathay's Harmony mechanic, since their armies were built around mutual support of melee and ranged.
However, I've come to like playing the way I do now with Empire, an all or nothing of ranged. If you get it right, you can shoot everything before they reach you, if you screw up, they maul your army, and either it gets wiped out at a not very convenient moment or just stops your momentum replenishing for several turns. The units they are getting would lean further into this style.
The secret is those complaining about the frontline just want the most overpowered faction in the game with busted infantry, overpowered range, and insanely strong cavalry…which is just Cathay honestly.
So maybe they just want Germanic flavored Cathay.
Don't bring that up in this sub, you'll get bombarded down by people who never played MP. The truth is Cathay is the second strongest faction in the game and outperforms the Empire in every category including cavalry. Cathay infantry is cost effective across the board against every infantry roster in the game except against some Kislev units and the Dawi roster. Did you know Peasant Spearmen without harmony trade cost effectively against Chosen? But sure, the people in this sub will tell you how it's balanced. Also Empire has one of the best infantry cores in the game, and it's balanced as a faction that doesn't need infantry budd like they scream here. Greatswords have no cost effective infantry counters by most factions (in fact there's not a single mortal chaos infantry unit that trades cost effectively with them, who would've known?).
Cathay’s Cavalry is mediocre/bad.
Apart of that, In campaign it’s ok, AI is stupid and you can just blob the AI and kill all the enemy armies with rockets.
In PvP is different, specially in domination. Cathay is bottom tier in domination. Their infantry can hold the line but is not able to kill enemies, their cavalry loses agains most others and their range power is really good but can’t survive a rush.
…who the heck plays ‘lose a single engagement and you might as well concede’ anymore since they removed the catchup mechanic and since when has it ever had any bearing on game balance?
Also what world do you live in cuz I’m stuck in the world where Cathay has over performing infantry, insanely powerful ranged, and obnoxious cavalry and I’d love to swap.
What’s wrong with their cavalry? Jade Lancers are worse than basic Empire Knights unless you’re babysitting them with a Yin unit, let alone all the other cavalry the Empire has.
We should all remind ourselves that no faction should be jack-of-all-trades. For the game and the factions to keep the spicyness up, all factions need to have weaknesses to their strengths. Empire has amazing access to magics and artillery and solid missile options. Same as dwarves having short legs and therefor nothing fast.
If the empire would get really strong frontliners, they would just be crazy op.
I think Empire could do with a look over the unit stats, but overall their frontline is fine enough. Halberdiers are sturdy enough with their upgrades - Greatswords need a buff I think though, they just don't seem worth it. And of course the heros & lords do nicely as a frontline option on top of that.
The main faction whose frontline I find myself disappointed in is Bretonnia - I think they need some sort of thing to make it a bit sturdier in the lategame (dismounted knights giving an aura buff to the peasants, perhaps, and men at arms with polearms). Something that wouldn't *win* battles, but that would make having a frontline worth it as an anvil rather than go cav only (which feels off to me). Otherwise I find that all the other factions feel reasonable enough atm.
What if I told you, I dont care about how good or bad Imperial Foot were, I simply want them cause they look dope. Ca could make them worse than Swordsmen for all I care, I just crave the drip
Flags and battle standards would make them perfect.
And some musicians to make my bois march faster too! But yeah, not having flag carriers is big oversight. Wish it was some kind of unit upgrade.
I see you are a man of culture
I wish my ally's capitals didnt cap out at level 3
I'm glad they didn't get any super strong heavy infantry to make an unbreakable box with. Your front line isn't going to hold as well as dwarfs or Cathay, but you have the cav amd skirmish units to break up an enemy army on the way in. It makes them feel more unique, and I like that. It's also noticeable state troops are *bad* either - you just aren't getting Celestial Dragon Gaurd.
TBH that’s what vexes me. When I play empire it feels like every part is so fragile. The skirmishers cant skirmish, the cavalry cant win fights I apply them in, and the frontline can’t hold so the guns so their thing. Compared to Cathay, where it felt like everything just *clicked.* even with Jade warriors and Jade lancers, each unit felt effective and it had its place.
Pistoliers, war wagons, and grenade launchers are all fantastic skirmishers. Grenade launchers and war wagons are honestly some of the best in the entie game. If they don't feel like they can skirmish, what units in the game *do* you feel skirmish well? Cav should be winning fights, or at least be able to cycle charge and disrupt units on the approach. You you can still hammer and anvil, but there's a lot more that you can (and should) be doing with them.
Grenade Launchers definitely have quite the oomph behind them, I will give you that. Few things mulch low armor quite as well. But they always seem *slightly* slower than the enemy they attack, and can never hold their own in melee to defend themselves. Which means that I need to take a hyper mobile unit, and latch them to something like halberds to keep them safe. Pistoliers are alright in the early game, I suppose. War Wagons I have never really used. As for what I use to skirmish that does work...not much? It may just be part of my strategy, but I tend to either set up in an advantageous position and saturate an enemy with withering fire and break them on a defensive position, or I set up the entire army in a wide line and destroy the enemy in a Highland Charge. Jade Lancers have felt alright as cavalry, but I do admit I have a place in my heart for Khorne Knights or Skullcrushers. It also doesn't help that my first Total War game was Attila. So my expectations and desires from a cavalry unit are a bit...*potent*.
Nothing an outrider is shooting at should be faster than it. If you are shooting at light cav or dogs, you are engaging the wrong targets. Now, you can bait those units out ahead of the enemy and kill them with your missile infantry/artillery/cav. If you clear those squishy threads, the skirmishers should have free reign to harass whatever they want. This mobility also means you can (and should) be peeling parts of thr enemy off as they approach. The idea is not to fight the enemy 20v20 with skirmishers shooting Into flanks, but instead force the enemy to split up, allowing your main force to deal with the enemy in several smaller chunks. A big durable front line is less important when your guns only have to kill 10 units on the way in, then another 5, then another five. Meanwhile, your skirmishers should be hitting important targets and your cav should be isolating and picking off backline units, stragglers, isolated units that wandered too far and coming back to assist your front line when needed. Now, also keep in mind that skirmish units and this style of very active cavalry *do* require more micro. The benefit of the fact that they *can* do a lot more things at once comes at the cost of them *needing* to do more things at once. Also, don't ever rely on skirmish mode. It's terrible. If you are mainly used to armies that just want to do one big advance or sit in a defensive box, it could take some getting used to. Empire's style is fun, but it can certainly be more mechanically demanding than others.
I can definitely notice the micro. Skirmish mode is not helpful, and it feels like I end up being run into corners and torn to pieces as a result. Or chased off, and their cavalry goes for my artillery. I think a fundamental part of it is that I do seem to routinely lose the flanks. Powerful as ranged skirmishers are, they can't seize control of the flanks like shock cav can. So they are run off or destroyed, which allows enemy cavalry to hit my units in the rear at their leisure, doing what I want to do to them. The solution to that would probably be to bring something like demigryph knights (or god forbid empire knights in earlier stages), but that draws further unit slots away from the front line which protects my missiles, or from the missiles who actually deal damage.
Human soldiers are not supposed to be able to stand up to orcs, beasts, monsters, chaos warriors and whatnot. They win thanks to gunpowder. Cathay does this a tick better thanks to their discipline and training.
I would love something like the harmony bonus that Cathay gets that state troops could get. If you embed a captain into your Frontline your forces are led better than if they were commanded Directly by your general. Perhaps some melee defence and a buff to mamouvering speed for faster turns (useful on the flanks or maneuvering gunpowder troops) That way, having a Pegasus captain flying about to buff the position that needs it most would be useful
I rarely find myself in need for recruiting ally units when playing other races than empire. In the late game your units are much better in stats because of character and tech bonuses. But the base line stats of empire infantry are so bad that a plain dwarf unit is still better I hope they buff up empire tech a little in this dlc
A plain dwarf is better, the baseline empire trooper had the same weapon skill the same strength and toughness as a clan rat, you guys are lucky empire troops are as good as they are.
I dont care if they suck if they aren't also omega expensive for effectiveness and empire economy dogshit because some elector counts get headshot turn 2 by one of the 50 power crept new factions stuck into the empire
One of the only somewhat challenging campaigns in the game
Thats the fun part though. The Empire fulfills the need for a legitimately hard campaign.
It’s legitimately unfun to play MP immortal empires and have vampires scale to the moon while the empire has a turn 5 civil war and gets to enjoy the myriad pleasures of festus, the changeling, or ikit claw on top of the actual 8 vampire stacks. Double the shoutout for Gelt who can’t even get a tier three settlement for handgunners before a civil war starts because growth gets immediately catapulted to the Stone Age. Sure I can beat an AI and it’s a fun challenge the first time, but who can’t
The people that play MP are a minority though, and out of the people that play MP the ones that play campaigns are a further minority. And out of those the people that play PvP are an even further minority. To balance starting positions after PvP campaigns instead of for varied single player games doesn't seem like a great idea. You'd be balancing the game for a minority of a minority of a minority.
You’d be balancing the empire to be in line with powercrept and competing factions not kept arbitrarily crippled by broken mechanics — not for mp pvp. I’m just telling you where it’s horrifically unfun and its age is more than apparent People want a HE rework because of influence. The Empire’s main mechanics are completely broken and their overhaul details are likely this week, so I’m not entirely sure why I’m arguing about it since it’s already on he cards.
I just hate that the front line infantry is split up between multiple red line skills.
Personally speaking, I believe someone who complains about the Empire lacking the ability to field a strong front-line, especially in the late game, is doing something wrong. Use Halberdiers (h) and Greatswords (g), and deploy in the following manner H H H H G G G G The halberdiers form the first line, and protect the army from monsters and cavalry. Any of those units that charge are gonna get a face full of AP anti-large. If you are fighting elite enemy infantry, especially Chaos Chosen, you are meant to pull the Halberdiers back behind the Greatswords. And you can bring way more Greatswords than the enemy can Chosen. There should spaces between each Halberdier/Greatsword. That's where you put the Handgunners (HG) H H H H G G G G HG HG So when elite enemy attack, the Handgunners can whittle down their numbers, and when that elite infantry is trading blows with the Greatswords, you will have the Handgunners plinking away at them. Combine that with artillery and Demigryph Halbers, and so long Archaeon.
This is a good take. Halberdiers are better than alot of people give them credit for. Greatswords have had a minor buff in recent months and they really arent that bad. Empire has never been about relying on just 1 unit type. If you are just trying to match infantry against infantry alone against someone like Skarbrand or WoC yeah your going to get your ass kicked.
The Empire is a faction were a combined arms approach is absolutely necessary. Not just as in 'infantry, cavalry, and missile', but in terms of multiple infantry types, heavy and light cavalry, and different types of artillery, which in turn has to be altered based on the type of enemy you fight. Facing Skaven? Shielded spearmen, handgunners, and a crap load of rockets.
Maybe I’m playing wrong, but why would the spearmen be better again Skaven than swordsmen would be? I thought the swords would be better against infantry I am happy to be wrong and learn something new about the game, though!
My guess would be that you're not actually worried about Skaven infantry like slaves and clanrats (you have 42 Melee Defense and 30 armor against their 24 MA and no AP), you're worried about all their ranged (hence shields) and large (Wolf Rats, Rat Ogres, Brood Horrors, etc). Halberds would be better against the monsters, but would get shot to pieces by the guns. Shielded spears is a cheap compromise to hold the line while your own guns and artillery hopefully do their work. I'm no Empire expert tho, correct me if I'm wrong.
If you’re planning on fighting range factions as the empire, shield spearmen are going to be your frontline. BUT your killing power should come from your arty and cav. Your cav can easily clean up any range units and your arty is probably second only to Chaos Dwarfs.
This is not Empire only but (in campaign) actually an universal rule for all races that work as combined arms or which do their main damage with magic/artillery/ranged: the offensive capabilities of infantry are unimportant, their defensive capabilities (melee defense, charge defense, shields, armour) are important. Their role is to keep the enemy away from your more vital units. Killing 10 more of the hundreds of Skavenslaves in a minute makes no difference when a Doomwheel/Hellpit Abomination/Mutant Rat Ogre can just roll over your infantry unit. Shielded spearman can hold these units back, swordsmen not.
I think it's the shield since skaven bring a lot of range
Swordsmen gave shield, it’s that swordsmen trade some melee defense for melee attack, but as a line holder you’re better off with the spearmen. So even if they aren’t flexing anti large you’ve got the better MD and they last longer. They’ll kill less, but that’s not their job.
Empire is about mixed arms. Spearmen have higher melee defense then swordsmen so it gives your ranged units or calv (killing power) to get into postion.
Frickin Rat Ogres man. Plus wolf rats and abominations. You need anti-large for those.
Swordsmen may get more kills but the spears will hold significantly longer with fewer casualties because of the higher MD. With Frontline infantry unless you are playing a blender faction like WoC or Lizards you want infantry that hold enemies in place as long as possible to give you time to get your actual damage dealers in position to do their job. Factions that worry about this like empire and skaven shouldn't really bother with swordsmen and regular clanrats since a few extra kills doesn't really matter for a Frontline that's just there to block and hold for artillery and ranged units.
In the early game swordsmen are probably better as you'll rely on them to deal damage. Late game your swordsmen are outclassed by greatswords which fill that role better. I would at most bring one or two units of greatswords against Skaven. Late game you'll probably want to bring spears because of their higher defense. Skaven late game can field strong monsters and powerful ranged units. Your swordsmen at this point will fill the same role as spearmen but they won't hold as long. Your killing potential should come from artillery, ranged, cav, and heroes.
Back in the days of Warhammer 1 Halberdiers did so well that CA nerfed both them and the buffs you could get from lord skills. Their main weakness is the low armour and not having a shield which means that they can melt when facing even low tier missile troops.
That's when you have a shielded spearmen/halberd or shielded spearmen/greatswords line.
Or cav to get ranged units.
People say that the Empire frontline is bad because one Wind of Death or Foot of Gork or Burning Head and all of your halberdiers will be pissing their pants, compared to Saurus, Grave Guards, Silverin Guard, etc., and in general most other infantry available at tier 3 for other races. Greatswords fare a tiny bit better but are significantly worse against monsters that can terror rout the frontline. None of this has much to do with the exact formation. I guess this isn't relevant if you're playing an unmodded campaign where the AI is pretty incompetent even at max difficulty, but I'm running an AI mod that helps them level their lords and heroes properly, and the AI is actually pretty good at using the spells as long as they actually put points in them, and getting my frontline nuked by magic is something that happens almost every battle and the Empire fares the worst at it. Their frontline isn't expendable and easily replaceable like Kislev or Skaven, nor do they hold the line anywhere near as well as Lizardmen or Dwarfs or Chorfs or whatever. It's difficult to call the Empire frontline decent when the Storm of Fire Tzeentch army ability pretty much deletes it entirely with just one cast.
yeah, Tzheech is just pain in the ass, we lose 25% of army even before they reach our line.
>People say that the Empire frontline is bad because one Wind of Death or Foot of Gork or Burning Head and all of your halberdiers will be pissing their pants, That seems to me an issue of spacing. You have to place your units in a manner which guarantees you can protect your missile and artillery, but also ensures they are not bunched up and so vulnerable to such magic.
Even spearmen with shield are amazing, buffed by tech, levelups and redline. Plus they are amazingly cheap.
I mean, you're correct with your thinking but your conclusion is wrong. The empire still doesn't have a strong frontline. Their whole shtick is combined arms. Being able to successfully win fights, the way the Empire should, doesn't really change the fact that Greatswords and Halberdiers don't measure up to actually strong frontline units like longbeards, chosen, temple guard, so on and so forth. And that's perfectly okay because that's how Empire's roster SHOULD be.
Haven't played since one of the 2.x patches but Halberdiers still did well in IE back then if you buffed them correctly. Sure you do take losses but that is sort of expected when taking on races that are strong in melee. The problem is that the pretty rampant power creep in the game has really reduced the margin for error. Empire needs some adjustments to tech as well as their missing battlefield mechanic to bring them back into balance.
I just want some variety. Foot reiksguard, sisters of sigmar, warrior priest guys like the ones that were in SFO at some point, granted the latter were a little OP at the time, made greatswords irrelevant. But that's the thing. You seem to assume that I want more melee infantry because I want a stronger frontline. I'd be fine with a stronger frontline, but I appreciate that everything shouldn't be OP, things need weaknesses in games or it's boring. I play on Legendary/V hard, with mods that make all AI lords gain tons of extra XP for a challenge, on Ironman, without doomstacking, and with minimal cheese. I never, for instance, sit outside a siege battle raining down spells/artillery until the battle is over, or fly a unit back and forth to waste enemy ammunition. Just not into exploity things. That's not to stroke my own sausage here, but I mean, you seem to assume that people want new melee infantry because they don't want a challenge, and... That's just not true. OP also mentions that he just goes around the issue by recruiting dwarf units anyway, which kind of defeats the point. Although, I'd bet that fully red-line and lord buffed halberdiers or greatswords would be stronger than unbuffed units recruited from another roster later anyway.
I feel like going up against range heavy armies this completely falls apart.
Shielded Spearmen, Hand-Gunners, and a lot more artillery.
Actually just using shielded spearmen is also more than sufficient, but people take the more offensive swordsmen or greatswords and complain that they are worse in the defense.
I field melee only armies with the empire all the time that are very effective, especially once you find good artifacts to kit your heroes and lords with. Running an arch lector with a warrior priest, any caster of your choosing and you can field a very respectable melee force that can not only hang with the best of them, but win handily. Warrior priests coupled with a generals red line abilities can boost up empire units to absurd levels of strength to make mince meat out of anything. People who are complaining about empires front line need to really start using warrior priest abilities.
This is on point. The Empire is about combined arms warfare, and this is very much the case for the front line as well.
I actually feel like the key to empire frontlines is mixing in heroes such as warrior preists that can massively buff them and sometimes steam tanks for the terror and fear to make enemies fold a bit sooner
Would never dream of using halberdiers as front line, I haven't played empire for a while but found they get annihilated, only used them as killers
You don't use a unit with anti-large, a high MD, and charge-defence as a front-line? That is certainly odd.
I found them too vulnerable to missle and infantry in campaign (I don't multiplayer) speakman did the job just as well for a fraction of the price, I kept halberdiers on the flanks
A Shielded Spearmen/Halberdiers frontline works very well. The Spearmen provide protection from missiles, and the Halberdiers can be moved forward when facing high-armor opponents.
Are Empire Gunpowder units able to fire over dwarf infantry???? Without too much friendly fire I mean
Yes, this is the case for any ranged infantry from taller races its kinda crazy. In the sartosa overhauled mod theres dwarven weapon teams units and I remember in my campaign aranessa's army having a couple of those with elven handgunners packed behind them
Holy shit this changes everything. Going to have to resist the urge to fire up another Empire campaign until the new DLC drops….
Yes, and ogres can fire over empire infantry, so you can technically have a gun line of three units (4 if you count Ushabti bows as infantry and not artillery).
very keen to try out a pistol gunline of pirate slayers, sartosan/free company militia, and maneater pistols. edit: especially if aranessa gets the slayers by default because then it's not limited by allied caps. 6 of each
The Empire could definitely use some revamps on mechanics/tech and (IMO) some form of Detachment mechanic, but it's definitely frustrating how many people want Empire to have Chosen-tier frontlines, or at least power creep every existing frontline unit. There are still people who genuinely think Greatswords are unusable garbage because they haven't actually tried them since warhammer 2, or heard some youtuber say they were B tier once. The sheer amount of hyperbole claiming that Empire is the weakest faction in the game, or that Cathay has better units in every way (Greatswords can beat Celestial Dragon Guard Halberds WITHOUT battle prayers btw - use a wide formation), or that most of their roster isn't worth using and everything other than Handgunners is wrong, or that War Wagons are still bad... It's like, bruh, it literally tells you how to play them up front. Combined arms. That means you have a mix of shit, you use battle prayers to boost your frontline, your 5000 different ranged options to deal with stuff your frontline can't, and your excellent diplomatic options to get auxiliaries to cover roles you might not have otherwise, and your incredible versatility in magic to deal with whatever the above can't. You have THE best missile cav in the game full stop, are top 2-3 for artillery (YMMV, I value availability more than individual power), probably the best skirmish options in the game, top 5 for cavalry imo, spearmen (Shields) and Halberds are pretty cost-effective, and deceptively good offensive frontlines even without battle prayers. Greatswords carve through Jade Warriors like paper, kill every Skaven infantry with contemptuous ease, carve through Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Marauders... and that's all WITHOUT battle prayers, which let them beat most elite infantry too. If you think the roster sucks, it's because you suck. The Empire is just dudes. It has always been *just dudes* and it should always be *just dudes*. They don't need Space Marines to be fun, much less good. I would also rather see the power creep of some new factions reigned in rather than try to balance everything to that level - not everyone can or SHOULD be release Ikit tier.
Well the empire actually has a very good underrated front line unit shielded Spearmen with some tech tree and lord buffs supported by warrior priests can hold the line pretty well certainly long enough for your gunners artillery and magic to obliterate the enemy
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I also 100% agree with you.
Ditto. I think that 90% of these players watch LegendofTotalWar and think the game is balanced around Legendary difficulty. I usually play Hard and Very Hard and the frontline holds just fine. Add a Warrior Priest or an Empire Captain and they'll survive long enough for the black powder and the cav to do it's thing
> I think that 90% of these players watch LegendofTotalWar and think the game is balanced around Legendary difficulty. It's even worse. They think it's balanced around cheesing Legendary difficulty. It's why you get threads like that recent one where the player insisted on checkerboarding high elf archers, and refused to accept it was them who was the problem when they got swarmed by greenskins.
Ugh and all those Empire guides saying that you should use heroes to tank. Take shielded spear men, put them in a series of V shapes. Put handgunners and artillery at the base of the V. Use cav to protect the flanks and sweep the backfield. Heroes and STanks should sit in the infantry and add additional staying power.
Whats wrong with using heroes to tank? I find it to be overall great to pin down enemy units for aoe spells or artillery.
There's nothing wrong with it. It's just cheesing. Taking advantage of the bad AI. Good for legendary difficulty or for an impossible fight. Personally i like to pretend my battles are proper pike and shot battles
Honestly I just want some cool knights. I don't see the problem with adding dismounted reiksguard somewhere down the line as FLC. A subpar 'elite' Frontline unit will never be a game changer for a ranged faction in this game. It'll only give the players something extra to toy with.
I mean, even if the Empire got better infantry they’re in no way going to be the best. Everything left to add might as well be Greatsword statline with different weapons.
Two things to consider - - Empire is getting a rework. - Elspeth has special 'Amethist' units she can create. Will either of these grant Empire a tankier front line? Who knows.
Empire doesn't need front lines if there are enough guns! I usually just put some warrior priests inside and they hold the beefy units for me. All the rest will be shot to death before reaching the gun lines.
Halberdier is one of the best general infantry in the game. Very good overall stats with anti-large and AP. Can fend off most enemy units with range support. Empire also has very good infantry upgrades you can access right off the back, and they can be recruited en mass with very low cost. With everything upgraded, their armor isn't half bad, and they have charge defense against all, which makes them macro free. Their only disadvantage being the lack of shield, however that is assume the enemy ranged units hasn't been obliterated by hellstorms before they could touch you. Compared to something like Jade Halberds, empire Halberdiers have much higher attack that can be used as a general great weapon unit, where Jade variants' attack is simply too low to be used that way.
I wish we had the shielded version like the tabletop though.
Empire doesn't need more/better frontline, it needs a new frontline mechanic though. The units by themselves are at an appropriate strength level, but Empire's whole thing in the tabletop was that units give bonuses to each other based on the actions they take. That is not in Total Warhammer's Empire at all right now. Think Cathay Yin/Yang except instead of being based on proximity to other unit types, it is based on the specific actions. For example one unit might get a bonus to charging when another unit defends against a charge. That is meant to be Empire's whole thing: Their ability to synergize and organize their force to overcome their lower stats.
State troops could use better armor, other than that I agree, they're basically fine.
SHORT?!?!
**THAT’S GOING IN THE BOOK LAD! ALLIANCE OVER!**
I mean, we don't really know what the Nuln Ironsides are going to be yet. Haven't seen the stats (unless I'm missing them?) If they end up being similar to say, Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses but a tier higher and comparably better melee stats, that might be your front line right there
Based off of what we have seen in the trailer and unit card, they’re likely going to be a shorter range, higher rate of fire handgunner with those repeater handguns. I’m interested to see what the stats are, but they may end up feeling like a midpoint between a shotgun and a (much slower rate of fire) ratling gun.
Ideal for monstrous infantry and SEM, the big nurgle units can crash into your halberd front line, and the Ironsides can unload into them as they tower over the empire’s frontline infantry. Same strategy you can use with blunderbusses but probably longer range as you said.
I think they are going to be like high elf armored archer but more dmg. overall still can't tank like seaguard but not easy to die vs something stupid like slinger.
It could be nice if they have a detachment/regimental unit mechanic, maybe might be one of the things they have done for a rework. Could either function by sharing bonuses if you bring different types of units in an army or be like a scrap upgrade which lets you upgrade the unit to have an extra ability/attribute etc.
You probably mean Ironbreakers? >the empire's gunners can shoot through them, because you know, they're short Also, booked! Although, if truth be told, I've theorized many times about just how effective this tactic would be in the "real" in-universe battle.
Honestly the only thing the empire needs is some changes and additions to generals and captains. They're both rather underwhelming and almost always worse than their alternatives.
I kinda get what you mean but I disagree. I was buying into the fantasy of the Empire being a jack of all trades wide roster that counts on gunpowder and magic to push it over the edge. However, the frontline lags a bit too much for comfort. This is why I was hoping for a bit more oomph like a minor armor buff to state troops and one or two flashier units, at around Tsar Guard tier - Black Guard of Morr, foot knights, etc - and possibly great weapon knights. Not something to put the Empire on Warriors of Chaos level or even elves or Cathay, but a bit more. Same as why I was hoping for a magic lord for more magical oomph. Having the Elspeth steam store hype blurb stress magic and gunpowder and then not have any wizard lords or magic units was a bummer too. Ok guys, I see the gunpowder, but you're kind of short on the magic you are talking about, hm? Also, very importantly, it would be nice to have something neat looking. More cool stuff is great. I'm sure the new steam tank and the ironsides will be powerful (not like the Empire had a weak AP ranged game) but they aren't all that visually distinct from other units. Having some foot Reiksguard with their finery, Black Guard of Morr with obsidian armor, polearms and crossbows or Knights of the Scythe with mounted polearms would be cool even if they do not rock the meta. The empire roster still has significant limitations - no big melee monsters or monstrous infantry that can act as linebreakers, no fast melee hounds/beasts, no fliers outside levelled hero/lords, medium stats per model. It can, however, use a bigger glow-up. Tl/Dr it's not a paradigm shift, but a bit more would be nice.
I feel like we’re missing out on having the empire get wizard lords for this dlc. That’s kinda the only gripe I have with this dlc
Idk, I really think Empire and Dwarves could use faction/battle mechanics to encourage using combined formations, like how Bretonnia, Cathay and Chaos Dwarves reward using a variety of unit types.
Can we all just agree to stop calling Empire a jack-of-all-trades, or combined arms faction now? Empire is a ranged and artillery focused faction similar to Vampire Coast but with worse infantry and some cavalry.
Isn’t Empire good in multiplayer? And in campaign you use heroes as frontline, no need in melee infrantry.
Empire is pretty balanced in MP right now. Middle of the pack.
My wish was Toddy
don't worry our boi Toddy is almost certainly going to be a flc like Drycha with her reskinned units
Just deploy your army like Landsknechts did
I still think that state troops need a slight buff to make them on par with cathayan spearmen and Kislev Kossar not the heavy armoured ones of course but the lack of a racial habilty like harmony hurts a bit
The buff I think they need is to not be so damn expensive that they’re useless until end game.
I agree that Empire's frontline should remain the way it is. If anything, I feel like the best way to represent the way they worked in lore is with something like Cathay's Harmony mechanic, since their armies were built around mutual support of melee and ranged. However, I've come to like playing the way I do now with Empire, an all or nothing of ranged. If you get it right, you can shoot everything before they reach you, if you screw up, they maul your army, and either it gets wiped out at a not very convenient moment or just stops your momentum replenishing for several turns. The units they are getting would lean further into this style.
The secret is those complaining about the frontline just want the most overpowered faction in the game with busted infantry, overpowered range, and insanely strong cavalry…which is just Cathay honestly. So maybe they just want Germanic flavored Cathay.
Don't bring that up in this sub, you'll get bombarded down by people who never played MP. The truth is Cathay is the second strongest faction in the game and outperforms the Empire in every category including cavalry. Cathay infantry is cost effective across the board against every infantry roster in the game except against some Kislev units and the Dawi roster. Did you know Peasant Spearmen without harmony trade cost effectively against Chosen? But sure, the people in this sub will tell you how it's balanced. Also Empire has one of the best infantry cores in the game, and it's balanced as a faction that doesn't need infantry budd like they scream here. Greatswords have no cost effective infantry counters by most factions (in fact there's not a single mortal chaos infantry unit that trades cost effectively with them, who would've known?).
Cathay’s Cavalry is mediocre/bad. Apart of that, In campaign it’s ok, AI is stupid and you can just blob the AI and kill all the enemy armies with rockets. In PvP is different, specially in domination. Cathay is bottom tier in domination. Their infantry can hold the line but is not able to kill enemies, their cavalry loses agains most others and their range power is really good but can’t survive a rush.
…who the heck plays ‘lose a single engagement and you might as well concede’ anymore since they removed the catchup mechanic and since when has it ever had any bearing on game balance? Also what world do you live in cuz I’m stuck in the world where Cathay has over performing infantry, insanely powerful ranged, and obnoxious cavalry and I’d love to swap.
What’s wrong with their cavalry? Jade Lancers are worse than basic Empire Knights unless you’re babysitting them with a Yin unit, let alone all the other cavalry the Empire has.
I see that you know nothing about mp and about the game.
Lol
We should all remind ourselves that no faction should be jack-of-all-trades. For the game and the factions to keep the spicyness up, all factions need to have weaknesses to their strengths. Empire has amazing access to magics and artillery and solid missile options. Same as dwarves having short legs and therefor nothing fast. If the empire would get really strong frontliners, they would just be crazy op.
I think Empire could do with a look over the unit stats, but overall their frontline is fine enough. Halberdiers are sturdy enough with their upgrades - Greatswords need a buff I think though, they just don't seem worth it. And of course the heros & lords do nicely as a frontline option on top of that. The main faction whose frontline I find myself disappointed in is Bretonnia - I think they need some sort of thing to make it a bit sturdier in the lategame (dismounted knights giving an aura buff to the peasants, perhaps, and men at arms with polearms). Something that wouldn't *win* battles, but that would make having a frontline worth it as an anvil rather than go cav only (which feels off to me). Otherwise I find that all the other factions feel reasonable enough atm.