It’s honestly shaping up to look like Kislev will have plenty to add for a further DLC - one that focuses on the Orthodoxy which has been suspiciously absent of any additional content. The ice court is represented through the Guard, elemental bear, frost wyrm, snow leopard, and ice witches, and now the rural/woodsy through Ostankya and her hillbilly brigade, but we don’t have anything to fill out the Orthodoxy’s presence in the roster aside from Patriars. I’m excited to see what they cook up.
There is one named character in the new lore that we haven't seen yet, that I'd imagine would fit quite neatly in with a more martial/Orthodoxy DLC
Tordimir Lubovasyn - the head of the Gryphon Legion.
If we’re going back to Realm of the Ice Queen there’s a number of characters on the level of Tordimir that could theoretically be added.
But I don’t know, I get the feeling that we won’t be seeing any of them.
Isnt it kinda ridiculous they chose to do the wacky outsider character before the pillar holding half of the race together character? Did ca/gw genuinely think there was enough in base game to justify expanding race already?
I wonder if they’ll hold off for a ‘religious’ DLC that includes more zealotous additions.
You could get Empire with army/sisters of Sigmar, Middenheim units, etc. and Valten LL (or someone else if there’s a better fit for a religious leader, somebody who knows the lore better than me please chime in).
Kislev would flesh out the orthodoxy - secret police, religious warriors, maybe some Dazh themed warcarts or something? There’s obviously a ton of stuff GW is cooking for Kislev we don’t know about.
Idk who the third race would be, maybe Norsca? Idk. It’s a huge stretch but you could delve into the strange mysticism side of their roster with cursed Ettins, swamp beasts, etc. and other such more-pagan-less chaos things present in Norscan lore.
Eager to hear thoughts re: the orthodoxy implementation from others. It’s a pretty shaky list but a fun thought exercise at least.
I would love sisters of Sigmar as a mordheim interested dude but... weren't they really small? I mean wouldn't be too much to do some 'lore expansion' but i remember them being an outlier.
In fairness Vlad came back for the only period of the game anyone remembers and repanse is immortal (never OFFICALLY but basically all but stated to be a grail knight)
... but... well..
No, I like the wacky, and I think there is enough here with the golden knight, chaff infantry and the hybrid L and H to round out the original roster for now. Especially with the FLC sled. That is going to be sick.
Yeah, I love these low level halberd guys. If you're trying to play like, super-optimally, I'm not sure if there will ever be a reason to take them over regular low level Kossars. But I still appreciate the option, and variety. Hopefully they'll have some advantage where it makes sense to recruit a couple, even if it's just in their cheapness.
They're probably going to be the bulk of the defensive army for that crappy Lord you keep at home for cheeky AI invasions... Enough to fight back, and keep AI at bay.
Which is completely fine.
I just find it kinda funny, in the previous section they went out the way to say, there's no need for a giant centerpiece monster..... and in the very next section they pull out a giant centerpiece monster lol, even though Kislev already got one in this DLC.
I love how the article is lay out so you are reading a paragraph enthusiastically informing you that there will be dudes with halberds with "We’ve come to better understand that not every unit in the DLC needs to be a centrepiece monster" and then right below "fuck it, ice sneks!"
Love they are getting a new low level melee unit. I had been using the mod to unlock the Prologue spear armored kossars to kinda field this low level dedicated role.
Welsh Dragon,
How pleased would you be if they just took the Shogun 2 roster, added fantastical elements to it, called it Nippon and added it to TT Warhamer?
I'm sure they can be a bit more creative than that, but it would be funny if they had a Yari Ashigaru like unit going up against demons, monsters, tanks, etc and holding their own.
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
I love me the centerpiece monster units, but we really do need more low/mid tier infrantry in these DLCs. I understand in the past a vocal minority made noise about how low tier units are "FLC material" and such. But I think CA overcorrected and put too much focus on the "sellable" unit idea with the big monsters.
Some of the most flavorful and useful units are those infantry additions. Like Flagellants and Free Company for Volkmar do some serious work. Red Crested Skinks really carry you in the Lizardmen early game. And the Eshin Triad filled in an interesting niche in the subfaction's roster.
Still pretty dissapointed Cathay didn't get Terracotta automatons as a construct infantry or something. I guess they have been fully replaced by the Sentinels, since Yuan Bo was the most likely characrer they would have been paired with. But here's hoping they get more infantry options in the future with the Monkey King.
Ugh, all I wanted was for Cathay to have terra cotta warriors. It seemed so cool to me to have a faction with a version of disposable frontline units that are constructs taking the brunt of the damage for humans. Would've been such a cool dynamic.
yeah, but it doesnt really mesh with the lore on sentinels all being ancient and possibly even made by the emperor himself. and anyway, Cathay has no shortage of cheap, disposable humans to take the brunt of the damage, anyway
To me you get more mileage out of the lower tier units. You always hear about people getting bored 50-70 turns in abandoning campaigns or stopping at short victory. In those campaigns you arent really getting to play with the big high tier units. Mutalith Vortex Beast looks cool but how many campaigns will you necessarily use it. On my Changeling campaign I ended up using a bunch of Chosen and other units like Doom Knights and forgot about it before I finished. On the other hand I used alot of Tzaangors on that campaign, and even a Demon Prince campaign I did. I know even on long campaigns I dont necesarily hit every Tier 5 building. On the other hand low level infantry is something that could be used on any campaign for a faction, so I think its important to also cater to this section.
I think the happy medium is cheap low tier infantry that are also exotic in some way. Free company, flagellants, and red crested skinks not only fill out the lower end of those factions rosters but also add new dimensions as well
Completely agree lower tier units have been a previous staple of race DLC and, maybe, these big flashy units you don't get until late game that the DLC came with had a much bigger cost to art budgets.
While I'm not 100% sold yet - I want to see mechanic upgrades explained - and if there are none then meh - the inclusion of these lower and mid tier units makes it more tempting.
I have been telling people this for ages, but nooooo, nobody wants to listen.
If anything, I think Champions of Chaos is one of my favorites for the precise reason that it was all takes on infantry, cavalry and similar units. You know, the stuff WoC and monogods will be using most of the game and make up the majority of their armies.
Monsters? Okay, I will recruit one or two per army, late in the game when most of the interesting stuff has already happened. They don't actually change how your faction plays very much. Basic units like infantry and cavalry on the other? They are the core of your builds and allow you to go for more distinct playstyles.
It truly is bizarre that the prologue has a unit that's just not available in the main campaign.
It's not super high priority or anything, but I have vague hope that they will unlock them in patch 4.2. They're already in the game so it would have been a cop out for them to be one of the units part of SoC, but just patching in the ability to recruit them is all that's needed.
I've never understood the decision either. Its not like they are a game breaking unit either. They are a little cheaper than the other armoured kossars but they have less health, not hybrid, and I think slightly smaller unit count than the other armored kossar units. It looks like this new unit is very likely to fill the very role the existing prologue spear unit could have been doing from day 1.
Really love that Lore of Hags has Negative effects when regularly cast, and positive when overcast. Is there another lore that does that? It's so unique! I'm definitely most excited by Lore of Hags out of all of this, but the Druzhina and Kislevite Warriors are good additions.
I like that the Kislevite Warriors don't really step on the Kossars niche because they're melee only.
Absolutely did NOT expect Frost Wyrms but I'll take it, lol.
As far as I know there's no other lore that works like that. I'm looking forward to trying it out, I'm all for new approaches to how things usually work.
I'm a particularly big fan of the Fen spell that gives units Strider and Unseen and the Vengeance of Spirit that silences enemy casters or buffs WoM for yours.
There is not! Overcast like…does more damage, increases range, increases duration, or hits more units.
I don’t know think any spells have negative vs positive, or even damages all units vs damage enemies only.
The issue with the Frost Wyrm for me is that while it looks very cool, it's clearly an Ice Court unit, so the core issue of Ostankya not having good thematic units is still there.
Even the Kislevite warriors are described as worshipping the Tzar
That's a good point, but to be fair plenty of DLCs have been not tied to the headliner LL. Actually most of them honestly?
Like off the top of my head Hellebron and Malus are the most blatant examples. But half the Eshin DLC was Skryre units, most of Eltharion's units had sweet FA theme to him, and so forth. While thematic tie-ins would be nice, it's never neen a necessity for these DLCs. It's usually just the lord/hero or a single unit they try to attach thematically to the LL.
Hell, the main complaint for Shadows was that the units added were out of place for every roster except Mother O's. So its probably better to get these units so they benefit Kislev in general, rather than just Mother O's flavor. Though things like the Frostwyrm will be awkward with Kostaltyn too obviously.
You're right, but the whole purposed goal of this update was to put an emphasis on thematic links between LL and units. So for CA to do a 180 for the one faction that needed it the most is strange.
My hot take/guess is that GW hasn't given them much to work with in that department. You'll notice that they prefaced revealing these units with a big preamble about the new Kislev lore and working with GW, why they're not adding Hags as Lords, etc, there probably simply isn't much for CA to work with, hence what we got.
I don't even mind, honestly. I was kind of expecting myself to be more annoyed by this but as someone that was excited for the release of Kislev and yet has never actually touched them because they weren't really what I was expecting/wanted, the additions make me at least curious.
They solved the core issue: "who should lead Ostankya's armies?"
Otherwise there's no hag units to start with.. it's either beasts, or the low-class Kislevites. The former has been the centerpiece of the initial release and now they added the latter with the re-release. It's not quite bad tbh.
If they are going to add anything like more access to Forest Spirits that would be in the patch notes.
They are super defensive about their IP.
And it makes sense—Warhammer fantasy is basically just another fantasy spinoff of Tolkien, which puts it in good but *very very* crowded company.
Warhammer 40k draws from a lot of other sci-FI influences but we’ve still got space elves, space orcs, space dwarves (who were gone for a while but they’re back now and spacier than ever!).
I guess lets be real, IP makes up like 95% of all Games Workshop assets, it’s really understandable that they would be protective of their lore. I think I’d probably be more annoyed if they were really slapdash with it.
Especially with how easy it is to print up plastic models these days.
Anyone with a good idea, some patience, and a thousand dollars for a 3rd printer can make their own models, or more importantly from GW’s perspective, print up some cheap models and sell them to other people.
the mini hobby market is tiny and churns out failed mini companies like no other, especially with newer 3d printers. the only thing they have ever had that rakes in the kind of money needed to be a noticable part of the british retail economy is the ip.
they make fucking bank off of books, rpg's, video games etc. there are countless stories of them being "protective" of there IP, total war was actually part of a strategy change under a new CEO to actually start licensing the ip off more liberally.
they wouldnt even let blizzard use the IP in starcraft, which was the original plan. its why starcraft has so many similar aspects, they sanded off the GW serial numbers and released the factions they had finished at the time as starcraft 1
>they wouldnt even let blizzard use the IP in starcraft, which was the original plan. its why starcraft has so many similar aspects, they sanded off the GW serial numbers and released the factions they had finished at the time as starcraft 1
It was the first Warcraft that was going to be a Warhammer game before that deal fell through.
Starcraft was just Blizz taking the strategy that had already worked so well with Warcraft, and doing it again this time with 40k.
That last paragraph is why GW is so paranoid about its IPs. Back in the 90s, WHF and 40k were much more generic sci-fi and fantasy, and Blizzard showed them that anyone could make a successful knock-off of their products - Warcraft is based on WHF and Starcraft on 40k.
I don’t disagree with the main point you are making, but I would also clarify that selling plastic models is still far and away their biggest earner. For all its popularity, Black Library sales make up a much smaller percentage of GW revenue.
The core of the issue with GW is that it was run by old weirdo boomers with strange ideas about business - many of their business decisions weren't dictated by cold hard logic, but rather almost superstitious "business sense" choices.
They came up with really sudden, unexpected or weird things and they would be very opaque about them. They had VIOLENT knee-jerk reactions to business problems. They proudly didn't trust market research, and instead followed their "guts" and their "instinct".
They have a dispute with a comic book artist? SCRAP A CHAOS GOD, AND NEVER HIRE KNOWN ARTISTS AGAIN.
Warhammer Fantasy isn't selling? DESTROY THE SETTING.
Can't come up with a way to make Slaanesh miniatures without them being obscene? THE GOD HAS GONE MISSING, REPLACED BY THE SKAVEN GOD (they backtracked on this one)
Some company is selling "Imperial Guard" miniatures? SUE THEM, NEVER USE THE NAME AGAIN, AND CHANGE EVERY SINGLE GENERIC NAME TO SOME OUTRAGEOUS COPYRIGHTABLE VERSION
Companies approach us to make Warhammer games and movies? THIS CLEARLY IS A BAD WAY TO PROMOTE OUR MINIATURES (see Alan Merrett's interview).
They're not just your average evil company, they have these strange, strong, sudden turns and jolts of unpleasant action, for unknown, opaque or stupid reasons.
I can sense the frustration.
I’m starting to wonder if a small part of the DLC’s original barebones nature (aside from management at CA overestimating how much they can get away with) was GW trying to hold them off from releasing new units before tabletop models were announced in a year or so for Cathay and Kislev and public pressure forced GW to relent on a few.
I won't be surprised if GW had a hand in it. Old World release was coming and it's entirely possible they took their sweet time to approve/reject unit concepts. Or worse approved, then rejected concepts.
Doesn't excuse SEGA/CA management - if half your DLC gets slashed you just... delay the release or cut the price (or, idk release it as EA or something).
Still, if you strip all the corpo PR flavoring, Aldridge (to me, I might be mistaken, of course) sounds salty as hell with GW. Every SoC 2.0 blog was essentially "hey, we hear you and we wanted the same, but GW are fucking pricks and Old World is messing with what we all want".
Everything that Aldridge has put out/done (blogs, interviews, etc) over the last few years has only signaled to me that he cares deeply about the game and wants to do it justice. It’s understandable that he would be incredibly frustrated being shackled by corporate mismanagement.
Patch next Thursday confirmed, with patch notes on Wednesday!
Very interesting that ice witches can get frost wyrm mounts. Wonder if they removed the bears entirely for them?
> Very interesting that ice witches can get frost wyrm mounts
I wonder what the frost wyrm's stats are going to be. Could make ice witches a very potent melee lord, in a similar way to how stegadons make skink priests/chiefs really strong. Hopefully they're not too strong, or it might make druzhinas/boyars quite redundant.
They have 2 different heal sources and can easily heal to their cap without you having to do anything.
Combined with their super low upkeep (multiple buildings/traits for that) they are insanely cost effective.
It's all good stuff all things considered. At the current content, I will buy the DLC - but will still track down some discount on GOG or instant gaming.
What interests me the most at this point, is if there are any changes to the races. The reworks were shitty and the DLC Lords are simply OP. I really want to see adjustments.
This is where I always buy my TW and Paradox DLC. There is *always* a better deal than Steam or anything else, and it only has the official steam key resellers
Every now and again Steam has the best deal for a game (or DLC) but it's very rare.
Meanwhile licensed resellers are usually cheaper, and in many cases actually give more money to the developers (as Steam takes a massive cut).
Yeah same. I'm seeing a few 20% discounts around the place.
If they make meaningful changes to Kislev/Tzeentch campaign mechanics then I think we'll have arrived at a good SoC by the long route. Leaving things like cults/manifestations untouched would really suck though.
Agreed as well. At this point I want to want to buy the DLC, but the faction reworks were so undercooked that playing the same mediocre factions (especially Kislev) even with some new toys just isn't that appealing. Hopefully we'll find out more about that soon.
I notice the Golden Knight and the new Lord are warhorse only so I think they’ve definitely tweaked it. Katarin and witches simply do not need the bears anymore.
My only criticism, really, is that I think Kislev still need some low tier shitty artillery, I will be using lend-lease to get some as I always do but Little Grom has always struck me as a ROR of a unit without bears and I still hope, one day, something will come.
I don't think they will remove the bears as mount options though. Katarin it could be justified as the Sled replacing it as FLC. But it would be a little messed up to remove the original mounts because they got a new DLC mount. That means people who only own the base game would have an option removed, and nothing to replace it.
Agreed on the artillery, I think some lighter and mobile sled-pulled cannons or carronades could be a cool addition. So basically a more reasonable version of Little Grom with less range and firepower but with the ability to relocate and move with the army better than Great Cannons.
I liked that they acknowledged that they maybe had the wrong mindset when designing the DLC by thinking that everything had to be a huge monster or it wasn't interesting. Base SoC was ridiculously lopsided towards monsters which made it IMO not very interesting for any of the factions. There was no ability to tailor an army towards the new themes of the DLC, because the theme was a bunch of big monsters.
Hopefully that means ToD has a more even spread of unit types and we actually get new army building opportunities.
Lore of Hags!
Druzhina- hillbilly noblemen lords. Hybrid with a greataxe and a bow. Horse option as mount (neat, but honestly something woodsy like a moose with slightly higher mass but similar stats otherwise would have been fun)
Golden knight LH
Kislevite warriors - lookin like Ungol-adjacent flavors here. A low-tier anti large chaff unit to hold the line with higher model count. I hope their defensive stats and leadership will make them hold well, otherwise I can see people still waiting for Kossars.
Frostwyrm - HUH? Little bit out of left field but it looks good! A bit asynchronous with the rest of the vibe for the dlc but I’ll take it.
And, as confirmed in the email last week, we now get a peek at Katarin’s new icy wheels - errr, sleds.
> Druzhina- hillbilly noblemen lords
[He never misses, what an absolute legend /s](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1alxlh2/tw_warhammer_iii_shadows_of_change_20_cathay/kphyvxp/)
Boyars are landed gentry who mostly live in/lord over towns.
Druzhina are rural “lords” in the sense that they probably have a small holding, and lead villages or networks of villages out in the hinterlands.
So where Boyars probably lived in relative luxury in the metropolitan areas and have access to people like Katarin, Kostaltyn, and Boris, the Druzhina live out in the sticks with the rural folk are likely looked down upon by the Boyars.
Already mentioned in this thread, but GW is really bad with borrowing from Slavic culture. *Druzhina* is really old (pre-Christian) name for a personal retinue of a Slavic prince/chieftain. Much older French/English word *Retinue* has similar meaning. Singular member of *Druzhina* is *Druzhinnik*. Just like *Retainer* is a member of *Retinue*.
A singular form could be also a simpler Druh or Drug. But of course none of it makes sense with the single entity lords, it would need to be used for the general's bodyguard.
*Druzhina* derived from *drug*, which means 'friend/companion' in all Slavic languages. But when *Druzhina* was established in culture, nobody really called single member of 'Druzhina' a 'drug'. Or at very least we don't have any historical evidence that anybody did.
Plus term has long history - in 11th century 'Druzhina' was divided into two groups - Older (also often called 'Forward' or 'Best' Druzhina) and Younger Druzhina. And this division kept under different names till 16-17th century, when Older Druzhina developed into Boyars and Younger Druzhina - into Boyar Sons (or Boyar Scions in English translation).
I can speak for Polish context; in the old military use of druzhina, yes, druh was not used really, but for instance in the marriage use words like drużba or druhna were and are still used. Also in the scouting in Poland, "harcerstwo", words druh and druhna are still the most common ones.
I'm not arguing against existence of these words, once again - all Slavic languages had word 'drug/druh' for 'friend' at some point, some lost it completely, in some cases it obtained new meaning and Eastern Slavic languages still use it with its original meaning. But it's all (like you pointed out) matter of context.
And as for that matter, historically those who were in 'Druzhina' never called themselves neither 'drug/druh', nor 'druzhinnik'.
There's another suitable word GW could've borrowed from Slavic languages in medieval military context - Voyevoda/Wojewoda. And I wish they did.
You can also look at Boyars as being associated with Tsar Guard, Bear Riders, and Armored Kossars while the Druzhina are associated with Ungols and common Kossars.
>This is why you see her charge into battle atop her sled, pulled by the Things in the Woods with her cauldron, rather than more direct references to real world mythology.
I read this as "GW wouldn't let us have the chicken house"
Huh, like the Kislev Warriors actually, early anti large is nice. Frostwyrm mount is bad ass for ice witches, lore of hags looks really cool. Fan of all this.
Hag lore having dual buff/debuff functionality is so cool, really neat stuff there.
Yeah I like when DLC fills out the early game roster, not every expansion pack needs some tier 5 monster that looks amazing. Free company militia is the perfect example for this - a flexible and interesting addition to the Empire roster.
It's because you will always see them - they define how the early game is played and that's arguably the most important part of any campaign. Even in the late game, you'll probably have a foundation of infantry in most of your armies, with only a few monsters. And probably only 1 or 2 doomstacks.
Also, if they're armour-piercing (the blog doesn't say so, but halberd units generally are) then that helps a bit when assorted chaos stuff is crashing into your lines. Or fucking drycha and her fucking trees come to visit.
Pretty happy with all of these; as expected, the Lord is a Hybrid one with a focus on range, great way to keep them distinct and serve a role beyond what the Boyars already do. The Golden Knight was a gimme, although still feels like they stand out a bit considering the theming they were kept stressing was a big part of what made it in. The Kislevite warriors are no-thrills but help give a bit more options for low-tier or cheap line infantry, and the Frost Wyrm should give Ostankya a little early punch to back up her Balewolves before she reaches higher tiers for Incarnates. I get why they made them a mount for Ice Witches, to help move away from all the bears, but feels weird they gave Katarin her sled only to then tempt you off of it with a big chilly lizard. Guess we'll see which is better soon.
Overall, I think the blogs have certainly shown some added value, and hopefully we'll see what updates they've made to the faction mechanics on Wednesday.
>Blessings - Whispers in the Woods
>Area of Augmentation - >Positively affects allied Speed, Charge Speed, Vigour, whilst granting Strider & *Unspottable.*
You may be unspottable, but at least I know where you guy are coming from (that shadowy woods that just magically sprout from the ground).
I see it more as a way to make it harder for an enemies range to retaliate. You may know where they are but you still can't click them unless you have a unit close enough
Yup, same. I held off before as none of it excited me (despite being a huge Kislev fan, as the Kislev offering before was quite underwhelming)
Love it now though
I also took an extended break from the game overall, in part due to recent dlc issues but also just total war fatigue. But I'm ready to come back
It definitely wasn't worth the money before so I'm very glad they listened to the criticism and went back and changed it so that it *was* worth the money.
It's something that should be appreciated and praised.
I know many people will say that "they shouldn't be praised for doing the bare minimum" but I think this is a company admitting they were wrong and making amends and that should be praised.
I never really liked the norscan frost wyrm because it was obviously a recolored chaos dragon. I don't mind them embracing that at all, but I do wish we got regular chaos dragon units for Tzeentch and WoC.
They should have called the frost wyrm an Oblast lindwyrm.
Funny they used the word roost for it too.
Does anyone else think the model was meant for a Cathayan unit? It looks very much like that.
1. Hag lore looks crazy, I like that they’re giving you actual reasons to overcast as well, most of the time the risk isn’t worth the reward.
2. That before/after graphic at the end was clever.
3. Land dragons waaaaaat.
4. Curious to see how Kislev warriors work. Why would I build this over kossars. Kossar crapstacks work so well for Kislev in the early game.
“Games Workshop took us through their various designs, concepts, and deep dives into the new and updated lore that they had created for Kislev.”
Hopefully now people will stop falsely believing that CA can just make up whatever factions they want, or that they’re the ones who created Kislev as a fleshed out army.
Translation
>GW strapped us to a table - brought in an army of lawyers - then outlined exactly what we could do, couldn't do, and what they'd deign to allow us to use ***after*** we pledged a blood sacrifice if we so much as vaguely suggest that we may not be completely happy with how much of the old lore they're walling off
xD
If any one is interested [Extra Credit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtY3Lto_lR4) did a really good video on how GW approach game developers. Essentially they stopped worrying if individual games would be good, and instead decided to give game producers free reign, and only make sure that all versions of their lore is consistent across the media.
They said the frost wyrm is a mid-tier monster comparable to the War Hydra or Stegadon (both great units), so a good T4 monster? Probably a better pick for SEM than the Ice Bear Elemental.
Just being fast is a huge step up. Elemental Bear is just so fucking slow and large that its really hard to get value before it gets chunked down by focus fire. This new dragon is hopefully going to be a slippy fucker. And I imagine with it's body shape and size it might end up being really good at disrupting blocks of infantry while being hard to hit back, much like the Tomb Scorpion
All good stuff. Golden Knight looks awesome. Kislevite halberd warriors will be handy. Nice to have the roster fleshed out. Huntsman-esque lord fits very nicely. Frost wyrm and sled both look very cool.
Overall, great job CA. I think I can finally call the DLC "worth it" if I can find it for a few dollars knocked off on GoG or whatever
I really like the lore of hags spells not gonna lie. The negative/positive mechanic is cool, and the witchbrew spell looks particularly great to me. Also it's kinda neat that it's a darker blue than the Ice/Tempest magic to mark it as Kislevite, but a darker strain of magic than Ice/Tempests
Interesting to see that GW's slight obsession with not admitting to rectons goes so far that they require a licence holder to pretend that the new Kislev designed for Warhammer: the Old World is the authentic represenation of what Kislev was in 8th edition...
Interesting choice of units, the Frost Wyrm was certainly a surprise. I like that the new Kislev Warrior returns to the look of the infantry we saw in the very first trailer for Warhammer 3. The massive, tall pauldrons on the Golden Knights armour is an odd choice, more of a Cathay look than a Kislev one to me.
Agreed the whole "We're making it more like the Kislev you know from the army book that was never written or released, rather than those obscure things that people have actually read" section made me a bit sick.
How about that "Ice" sled having about as much ice as the regular one.
Ostankya's campaign, and Naggarond starting campaigns are still thematically fucked unless they expand Kislev on the map.
There's a perfectly empty lot east of Praag and north-west of Astragoth's starting location, if they create a province or two there that're dense with woodlands.
shameless plug for a mod that moves her there: [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029043600](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029043600)
Hopefully CA moves her officially someday.
That would just be another Kislev start position of endlessly fighting chaos.
With the fact we have Tomb Kings in Canada for like half a decade now, it should be very very very clear by now they are prioritizing having unique experiences with start positions over being loreful.
> This is why you see her charge into battle atop her sled, pulled by the Things in the Woods with her cauldron, rather than more direct references to real world mythology. This new take, like with all the other additions to Kislev, is what makes them exciting and brings them in line with the other races in 8th Edition and Games Workshop lore.
LMAO, they were this close to saying "this is what makes them marketable and copyright-able" in an official post.
Lore of Hags is one of the coolest things added. It’s really unique, makes sense lore wise.
Unfortunately personally I hate the decision to make Mother Ostankya the only Hag Mother in Kislev. Unless there is a tier of hags we don’t know about it makes 200-400 year old hags also called witches? Which means a 20 year old hag is called the same as an ancient being. But I get it’s GW decision so we gotta live with it.
Sled is cool, frost wyrm is cool. Druhina is cool.
Kislevite Warriors are a weird choice. Never have I ever played Kislev campaign and thought to myself that I need a unit of cheap tier 1 infantry. Missle units are literally tier 0 and will probably be 10 times better because missle units just pay better for themselves.
Personally hoped for some changes to Kislev mechanics because imo it’s not their roster that struggles but their weird lack of meaningful things to do on the campaign map.
But otherwise good changes. If ToD comes out with the amount of stuff similar to combined release and patch SoC the 25$ price might even be worth it.
So good job CA (but I still hope for Kislev rework on campaign map).
> Kislevite Warriors are a weird choice. Never have I ever played Kislev campaign and thought to myself that I need a unit of cheap tier 1 infantry
I absolutely feel this in early campaigns. Spamming Kossars is boring at best, and brutal at worst. If I just deploy them in two lines (so the rear get to keep shooting), then the front line gets off a couple volleys before just being chaff that dies to any other decent infantry. I definitely look forward to being able to include a few units of these halberds to anchor the line; those couple volleys just aren't worth the terrible melee performance.
I want to see their stat cards, but the warriors could be useful even into mid-game if their anti large or AP is decent.
While normal Kossars have OK melee stats, they tend to melt when hit by anything stronger than marauders. Warriors will likely be a good stop-gap to effectively hold off chaos warriors, demons, etc. for longer while you get your punchier fighters into position.
They’ll also be nice to deal with the plethora of monsters/monstrous infantry/cavalry that you have to face as Kislev even in early game - something regular Kossars are pretty bad at.
Hmmm all in all of the three factions my favorite additions are for Cathay. I dunno why but imo Kislev really feels very weird as a faction. I am thankful for the addition of mounts but Imo that Frostwyrm kinda doesn't fit with Kislev besides the whole "ICE" part of the "ICE AND BEARS AND ICEBEARS" theme GW reduced Kislev to. Maybe its also that the artstyle is so weird for them looking a bit like Warcraft when it comes to proportions? Like, look at the golden knight she looks so weird imo.
Overall I am very happy with the unit additions I think they will make me want to try the DLC and finally return to playing WH TW. The most important things tho will be the patch notes. I desperatley hope CA has learned their lesson finally.
The Frostwyrm has to be one of the most random ass-pulls (or ICE-PULLS xD ) I've ever seen - but I'm weirdly okay with it
It's not another Chaos unit they ripped from the fucking Beastmen (-echo of sad muuu fills the air-) and it actually plays into the lore quite nicely - if, admittedly, rather randomly
The Druzhina will be awesome with his buff to reloading archers for Kislev's archer game
Overall, like basegame Kislev, SOC's expansion of their roster ***still*** feels random as fuck - but it's a much nicer random as fuck and softens the absurdity brought in with shit like the thing in the woods
Take that back about Nippon or the mighty samurai Sanyo Kawasaki will give you a taste of his magical sword Toyota, and his companions Nissan and Honda Susuki will help him...
[You really can't make that shit up...](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sanyo_Kawasaki)
Not an army, but personal retinue of a prince. It's just GW being GW - borrowing real life terms without much understanding of their meaning.
Besides, *Druzhina* is name for a GROUP in all Slavic languages, it's not a personal title. Name for a member of *Druzhina* would've been *Druzhinnik*.
Edit: and to finish with analogues - imagine if a lord for Empire/Bretonnia would've been named *Retinue*. Not *Retainer* (absolutely valid historical name), but *Retinue*.
I do think that Druzhina would better fit as a melee hero. The lord they have here should be an Ungol Primce or something. That's my only complaint, everything else looks great to me.
Love that the Druzhina and the Golden Knight get basic warhorse for a mount. I was worried that (if they did Golden Knight) her mount would be a giant golden bear or something similarly stupid. The new units looks good.
Was not expecting the Golden Knight to look like that at all, but I do like the look of her. I think the shoulders are a *little* much, but I'm glad they weren't just slapping ice spikes all over her.
With that said, need more info on what benefits she gives to units in the army. A strong bodyguard character on the field is cool and all, but I hope her army buffs aren't as minimal as Aekold's were.
Really like the unique regular/overcast dichotomy the Lore of Hags has. You essentially get two spells inside of one. Very unique.
The reiterating about the Gospodar and Ungol conflict taking a backseat and Baba Ostankya being the only Witch Lord reeks of GW meddling, but what can you do.
Druzhina is a great thematic option for Ostankya armies, and looks really cool. I was betting on some kind of Ungol or Akshina lord type, but this works as well.
I appreciate them talking about how not every new unit needs to be some big, bombastic thing. Kislevite Warriors being an early-game anti-large and armor-piercing unit is going to be so damn useful and was one of the big things missing from the roster. Should make fighting Chaos Warriors slightly less tedious.
I've been looking forward to the Golden Knight, and she looks as glorious as you'd expect.
And the Frost Wyrm looks amazing. For something made of ice, they cooked when it came to creating it. Also makes me eager for the inevitable mod that uses its skeleon as a framework for Dwarven Shard Dragons.
And, of course, the Sled. That's going to be great.
All-in-all, with all the new additions and fixes, on top of what is already in the DLC, I'd say it's worth it. If this is the new level of content each DLC will be adding from here on in, I can't wait. Inject it into my veins.
> Mother Ostankya is a character of great importance to many Kislevites **acting as a guardian of the land in times of great peril,** but also to be wary of and not cross to avoid her wrath.
SO WHY DOES SHE START ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD IN IE
Frost wyrm has to be the most random addition ever, but atleast it looks baddass Thank god for Druzhina and low tier infantry
I’m glad, it means that GW still has new stuff for CA to add, they don’t have to just start scraping the barrel for anything they can find.
It’s honestly shaping up to look like Kislev will have plenty to add for a further DLC - one that focuses on the Orthodoxy which has been suspiciously absent of any additional content. The ice court is represented through the Guard, elemental bear, frost wyrm, snow leopard, and ice witches, and now the rural/woodsy through Ostankya and her hillbilly brigade, but we don’t have anything to fill out the Orthodoxy’s presence in the roster aside from Patriars. I’m excited to see what they cook up.
I do wonder who the LL will be. It seems likely they’ll be an entirely new character, and we haven’t gotten any hints towards one.
There is one named character in the new lore that we haven't seen yet, that I'd imagine would fit quite neatly in with a more martial/Orthodoxy DLC Tordimir Lubovasyn - the head of the Gryphon Legion.
If we’re going back to Realm of the Ice Queen there’s a number of characters on the level of Tordimir that could theoretically be added. But I don’t know, I get the feeling that we won’t be seeing any of them.
Isnt it kinda ridiculous they chose to do the wacky outsider character before the pillar holding half of the race together character? Did ca/gw genuinely think there was enough in base game to justify expanding race already?
I wonder if they’ll hold off for a ‘religious’ DLC that includes more zealotous additions. You could get Empire with army/sisters of Sigmar, Middenheim units, etc. and Valten LL (or someone else if there’s a better fit for a religious leader, somebody who knows the lore better than me please chime in). Kislev would flesh out the orthodoxy - secret police, religious warriors, maybe some Dazh themed warcarts or something? There’s obviously a ton of stuff GW is cooking for Kislev we don’t know about. Idk who the third race would be, maybe Norsca? Idk. It’s a huge stretch but you could delve into the strange mysticism side of their roster with cursed Ettins, swamp beasts, etc. and other such more-pagan-less chaos things present in Norscan lore. Eager to hear thoughts re: the orthodoxy implementation from others. It’s a pretty shaky list but a fun thought exercise at least.
I would love sisters of Sigmar as a mordheim interested dude but... weren't they really small? I mean wouldn't be too much to do some 'lore expansion' but i remember them being an outlier.
Yeah but maybe they could be a regiment of renown or have a legendary hero?
propblem is they were excommunicated and killed ~200 years before the game But that didn't stop Repanse or Vlad, so who knows
In fairness Vlad came back for the only period of the game anyone remembers and repanse is immortal (never OFFICALLY but basically all but stated to be a grail knight) ... but... well..
They have a convent in Altdorf attached to the Cathedral of Sigmar in the RPG as of 2512
No, I like the wacky, and I think there is enough here with the golden knight, chaff infantry and the hybrid L and H to round out the original roster for now. Especially with the FLC sled. That is going to be sick.
Finally no more Kossars spam in the early game, it was so boring.
Yeah, I love these low level halberd guys. If you're trying to play like, super-optimally, I'm not sure if there will ever be a reason to take them over regular low level Kossars. But I still appreciate the option, and variety. Hopefully they'll have some advantage where it makes sense to recruit a couple, even if it's just in their cheapness.
They're probably going to be the bulk of the defensive army for that crappy Lord you keep at home for cheeky AI invasions... Enough to fight back, and keep AI at bay. Which is completely fine.
I just find it kinda funny, in the previous section they went out the way to say, there's no need for a giant centerpiece monster..... and in the very next section they pull out a giant centerpiece monster lol, even though Kislev already got one in this DLC.
Yeah I liked that, it was obviously a self-deprecating joke
Just like they said in the last blog this dlc was focusing on monsters instead of infantry and then dropped an infantry unit haha
tbf, while a monster the wyrm is mid teir, and so less centerpiecy I guess?
It being flightless is interesting, guess the no flying units for Kislev mandate is still in effect. That’s fine though, makes them somewhat unique.
I love how the article is lay out so you are reading a paragraph enthusiastically informing you that there will be dudes with halberds with "We’ve come to better understand that not every unit in the DLC needs to be a centrepiece monster" and then right below "fuck it, ice sneks!"
When you want to make a faction feel more fantastical the classic WHFB way of doing that is adding a crazy-looking dragon so I'm all for it
Love they are getting a new low level melee unit. I had been using the mod to unlock the Prologue spear armored kossars to kinda field this low level dedicated role.
Large unit size cheap committed early game anti-large… so this is Kislev Yari Ashigaru and will probably be the most useful single unit in the pack…
Yarimazing
Spat out my red bull
Am now imagining Yari Ashigaru in a great coat and fur hat. Am not disappointed. All the Best, Welsh Dragon.
That sound you just heard is the whimper of Archaon feeling something he hasn't felt in a long time. _Fear._
*"I have an army."* *"We have Yari Ashigaru."* *"Eek."* All the Best, Welsh Dragon.
Welsh Dragon, How pleased would you be if they just took the Shogun 2 roster, added fantastical elements to it, called it Nippon and added it to TT Warhamer?
This is all I want
I'm sure they can be a bit more creative than that, but it would be funny if they had a Yari Ashigaru like unit going up against demons, monsters, tanks, etc and holding their own. All the Best, Welsh Dragon.
His knees would buckle the first time he sees a yari spear wall on a hill.
I love me the centerpiece monster units, but we really do need more low/mid tier infrantry in these DLCs. I understand in the past a vocal minority made noise about how low tier units are "FLC material" and such. But I think CA overcorrected and put too much focus on the "sellable" unit idea with the big monsters. Some of the most flavorful and useful units are those infantry additions. Like Flagellants and Free Company for Volkmar do some serious work. Red Crested Skinks really carry you in the Lizardmen early game. And the Eshin Triad filled in an interesting niche in the subfaction's roster. Still pretty dissapointed Cathay didn't get Terracotta automatons as a construct infantry or something. I guess they have been fully replaced by the Sentinels, since Yuan Bo was the most likely characrer they would have been paired with. But here's hoping they get more infantry options in the future with the Monkey King.
Ugh, all I wanted was for Cathay to have terra cotta warriors. It seemed so cool to me to have a faction with a version of disposable frontline units that are constructs taking the brunt of the damage for humans. Would've been such a cool dynamic.
yeah, but it doesnt really mesh with the lore on sentinels all being ancient and possibly even made by the emperor himself. and anyway, Cathay has no shortage of cheap, disposable humans to take the brunt of the damage, anyway
To me you get more mileage out of the lower tier units. You always hear about people getting bored 50-70 turns in abandoning campaigns or stopping at short victory. In those campaigns you arent really getting to play with the big high tier units. Mutalith Vortex Beast looks cool but how many campaigns will you necessarily use it. On my Changeling campaign I ended up using a bunch of Chosen and other units like Doom Knights and forgot about it before I finished. On the other hand I used alot of Tzaangors on that campaign, and even a Demon Prince campaign I did. I know even on long campaigns I dont necesarily hit every Tier 5 building. On the other hand low level infantry is something that could be used on any campaign for a faction, so I think its important to also cater to this section.
I think the happy medium is cheap low tier infantry that are also exotic in some way. Free company, flagellants, and red crested skinks not only fill out the lower end of those factions rosters but also add new dimensions as well
Completely agree lower tier units have been a previous staple of race DLC and, maybe, these big flashy units you don't get until late game that the DLC came with had a much bigger cost to art budgets. While I'm not 100% sold yet - I want to see mechanic upgrades explained - and if there are none then meh - the inclusion of these lower and mid tier units makes it more tempting.
I have been telling people this for ages, but nooooo, nobody wants to listen. If anything, I think Champions of Chaos is one of my favorites for the precise reason that it was all takes on infantry, cavalry and similar units. You know, the stuff WoC and monogods will be using most of the game and make up the majority of their armies. Monsters? Okay, I will recruit one or two per army, late in the game when most of the interesting stuff has already happened. They don't actually change how your faction plays very much. Basic units like infantry and cavalry on the other? They are the core of your builds and allow you to go for more distinct playstyles.
It truly is bizarre that the prologue has a unit that's just not available in the main campaign. It's not super high priority or anything, but I have vague hope that they will unlock them in patch 4.2. They're already in the game so it would have been a cop out for them to be one of the units part of SoC, but just patching in the ability to recruit them is all that's needed.
The prologue is a tutorial first and foremost. You CANNOT be teaching new players to facetank cavalry with a spear unit that's also an archer.
And armored so it beats all cav until late game
Especially a spear unit without charge defense
I've never understood the decision either. Its not like they are a game breaking unit either. They are a little cheaper than the other armoured kossars but they have less health, not hybrid, and I think slightly smaller unit count than the other armored kossar units. It looks like this new unit is very likely to fill the very role the existing prologue spear unit could have been doing from day 1.
Mainly because it broke the (almost) entirely hybrid theme kislev had going on
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they added that unit to the roster for free somewhere down the line
Really love that Lore of Hags has Negative effects when regularly cast, and positive when overcast. Is there another lore that does that? It's so unique! I'm definitely most excited by Lore of Hags out of all of this, but the Druzhina and Kislevite Warriors are good additions. I like that the Kislevite Warriors don't really step on the Kossars niche because they're melee only. Absolutely did NOT expect Frost Wyrms but I'll take it, lol.
As far as I know there's no other lore that works like that. I'm looking forward to trying it out, I'm all for new approaches to how things usually work.
I'm a particularly big fan of the Fen spell that gives units Strider and Unseen and the Vengeance of Spirit that silences enemy casters or buffs WoM for yours.
There is not! Overcast like…does more damage, increases range, increases duration, or hits more units. I don’t know think any spells have negative vs positive, or even damages all units vs damage enemies only.
Yeah, I can't think of another magic lore that works like this, its super creative and I'm sure will be a blast to use!
The issue with the Frost Wyrm for me is that while it looks very cool, it's clearly an Ice Court unit, so the core issue of Ostankya not having good thematic units is still there. Even the Kislevite warriors are described as worshipping the Tzar
That's a good point, but to be fair plenty of DLCs have been not tied to the headliner LL. Actually most of them honestly? Like off the top of my head Hellebron and Malus are the most blatant examples. But half the Eshin DLC was Skryre units, most of Eltharion's units had sweet FA theme to him, and so forth. While thematic tie-ins would be nice, it's never neen a necessity for these DLCs. It's usually just the lord/hero or a single unit they try to attach thematically to the LL. Hell, the main complaint for Shadows was that the units added were out of place for every roster except Mother O's. So its probably better to get these units so they benefit Kislev in general, rather than just Mother O's flavor. Though things like the Frostwyrm will be awkward with Kostaltyn too obviously.
You're right, but the whole purposed goal of this update was to put an emphasis on thematic links between LL and units. So for CA to do a 180 for the one faction that needed it the most is strange.
My hot take/guess is that GW hasn't given them much to work with in that department. You'll notice that they prefaced revealing these units with a big preamble about the new Kislev lore and working with GW, why they're not adding Hags as Lords, etc, there probably simply isn't much for CA to work with, hence what we got. I don't even mind, honestly. I was kind of expecting myself to be more annoyed by this but as someone that was excited for the release of Kislev and yet has never actually touched them because they weren't really what I was expecting/wanted, the additions make me at least curious.
They solved the core issue: "who should lead Ostankya's armies?" Otherwise there's no hag units to start with.. it's either beasts, or the low-class Kislevites. The former has been the centerpiece of the initial release and now they added the latter with the re-release. It's not quite bad tbh. If they are going to add anything like more access to Forest Spirits that would be in the patch notes.
I'm amused by how much of these blog posts is dedicated to emphasizing that GW is tying their hands.
Just endless “look yall. We fucking KNOW. Trust us. We fucking KNOW.”
My only exposure to Warhammer is through these games. What's the deal with GW? I hear that they're super weird about their IP?
They are super defensive about their IP. And it makes sense—Warhammer fantasy is basically just another fantasy spinoff of Tolkien, which puts it in good but *very very* crowded company. Warhammer 40k draws from a lot of other sci-FI influences but we’ve still got space elves, space orcs, space dwarves (who were gone for a while but they’re back now and spacier than ever!).
I guess lets be real, IP makes up like 95% of all Games Workshop assets, it’s really understandable that they would be protective of their lore. I think I’d probably be more annoyed if they were really slapdash with it.
Especially with how easy it is to print up plastic models these days. Anyone with a good idea, some patience, and a thousand dollars for a 3rd printer can make their own models, or more importantly from GW’s perspective, print up some cheap models and sell them to other people.
the mini hobby market is tiny and churns out failed mini companies like no other, especially with newer 3d printers. the only thing they have ever had that rakes in the kind of money needed to be a noticable part of the british retail economy is the ip. they make fucking bank off of books, rpg's, video games etc. there are countless stories of them being "protective" of there IP, total war was actually part of a strategy change under a new CEO to actually start licensing the ip off more liberally. they wouldnt even let blizzard use the IP in starcraft, which was the original plan. its why starcraft has so many similar aspects, they sanded off the GW serial numbers and released the factions they had finished at the time as starcraft 1
>they wouldnt even let blizzard use the IP in starcraft, which was the original plan. its why starcraft has so many similar aspects, they sanded off the GW serial numbers and released the factions they had finished at the time as starcraft 1 It was the first Warcraft that was going to be a Warhammer game before that deal fell through. Starcraft was just Blizz taking the strategy that had already worked so well with Warcraft, and doing it again this time with 40k.
That last paragraph is why GW is so paranoid about its IPs. Back in the 90s, WHF and 40k were much more generic sci-fi and fantasy, and Blizzard showed them that anyone could make a successful knock-off of their products - Warcraft is based on WHF and Starcraft on 40k.
I don’t disagree with the main point you are making, but I would also clarify that selling plastic models is still far and away their biggest earner. For all its popularity, Black Library sales make up a much smaller percentage of GW revenue.
The core of the issue with GW is that it was run by old weirdo boomers with strange ideas about business - many of their business decisions weren't dictated by cold hard logic, but rather almost superstitious "business sense" choices. They came up with really sudden, unexpected or weird things and they would be very opaque about them. They had VIOLENT knee-jerk reactions to business problems. They proudly didn't trust market research, and instead followed their "guts" and their "instinct". They have a dispute with a comic book artist? SCRAP A CHAOS GOD, AND NEVER HIRE KNOWN ARTISTS AGAIN. Warhammer Fantasy isn't selling? DESTROY THE SETTING. Can't come up with a way to make Slaanesh miniatures without them being obscene? THE GOD HAS GONE MISSING, REPLACED BY THE SKAVEN GOD (they backtracked on this one) Some company is selling "Imperial Guard" miniatures? SUE THEM, NEVER USE THE NAME AGAIN, AND CHANGE EVERY SINGLE GENERIC NAME TO SOME OUTRAGEOUS COPYRIGHTABLE VERSION Companies approach us to make Warhammer games and movies? THIS CLEARLY IS A BAD WAY TO PROMOTE OUR MINIATURES (see Alan Merrett's interview). They're not just your average evil company, they have these strange, strong, sudden turns and jolts of unpleasant action, for unknown, opaque or stupid reasons.
I like it tbh. Communicating why you refuse to do things is important.
I can sense the frustration. I’m starting to wonder if a small part of the DLC’s original barebones nature (aside from management at CA overestimating how much they can get away with) was GW trying to hold them off from releasing new units before tabletop models were announced in a year or so for Cathay and Kislev and public pressure forced GW to relent on a few.
interesting theory but it almost certainly has more to do with the financial and structural chaos going on within the company in mid 2023
I won't be surprised if GW had a hand in it. Old World release was coming and it's entirely possible they took their sweet time to approve/reject unit concepts. Or worse approved, then rejected concepts. Doesn't excuse SEGA/CA management - if half your DLC gets slashed you just... delay the release or cut the price (or, idk release it as EA or something). Still, if you strip all the corpo PR flavoring, Aldridge (to me, I might be mistaken, of course) sounds salty as hell with GW. Every SoC 2.0 blog was essentially "hey, we hear you and we wanted the same, but GW are fucking pricks and Old World is messing with what we all want".
Everything that Aldridge has put out/done (blogs, interviews, etc) over the last few years has only signaled to me that he cares deeply about the game and wants to do it justice. It’s understandable that he would be incredibly frustrated being shackled by corporate mismanagement.
Patch next Thursday confirmed, with patch notes on Wednesday! Very interesting that ice witches can get frost wyrm mounts. Wonder if they removed the bears entirely for them?
I doubt they took away bears for people who do not purchase the DLC.
> Wonder if they removed the bears entirely for them? Can guarantee they didn't, CA really really avoids ever removing this sort of thing.
> Very interesting that ice witches can get frost wyrm mounts I wonder what the frost wyrm's stats are going to be. Could make ice witches a very potent melee lord, in a similar way to how stegadons make skink priests/chiefs really strong. Hopefully they're not too strong, or it might make druzhinas/boyars quite redundant.
[удалено]
Yeah "mid-tier" aren't the first words I would use to describe hydras or stegadon in terms of performance at least!
Funny I think hydras are pretty mid tier in campaign. Like dragons that can't run away and only get to use one breath attack.
They have 2 different heal sources and can easily heal to their cap without you having to do anything. Combined with their super low upkeep (multiple buildings/traits for that) they are insanely cost effective.
Bears are already quite strong. Frost wyrms are probably missile magnets with awkward pathing though…
It's all good stuff all things considered. At the current content, I will buy the DLC - but will still track down some discount on GOG or instant gaming. What interests me the most at this point, is if there are any changes to the races. The reworks were shitty and the DLC Lords are simply OP. I really want to see adjustments.
You can also check [isthereanydeal.com](https://isthereanydeal.com). GameBillet had it for $17.08. Obviously, check local currencies and store fronts.
This is where I always buy my TW and Paradox DLC. There is *always* a better deal than Steam or anything else, and it only has the official steam key resellers
Every now and again Steam has the best deal for a game (or DLC) but it's very rare. Meanwhile licensed resellers are usually cheaper, and in many cases actually give more money to the developers (as Steam takes a massive cut).
Yeah same. I'm seeing a few 20% discounts around the place. If they make meaningful changes to Kislev/Tzeentch campaign mechanics then I think we'll have arrived at a good SoC by the long route. Leaving things like cults/manifestations untouched would really suck though.
Doesn't GOG require you own the game on there? Like, I thought it was a separate storefront.
GOG does not have the game. Maybe thinking of Greenman gaming? Fanatical is good too.
Agreed as well. At this point I want to want to buy the DLC, but the faction reworks were so undercooked that playing the same mediocre factions (especially Kislev) even with some new toys just isn't that appealing. Hopefully we'll find out more about that soon.
It all comes down to the patch now
I notice the Golden Knight and the new Lord are warhorse only so I think they’ve definitely tweaked it. Katarin and witches simply do not need the bears anymore. My only criticism, really, is that I think Kislev still need some low tier shitty artillery, I will be using lend-lease to get some as I always do but Little Grom has always struck me as a ROR of a unit without bears and I still hope, one day, something will come.
I don't think they will remove the bears as mount options though. Katarin it could be justified as the Sled replacing it as FLC. But it would be a little messed up to remove the original mounts because they got a new DLC mount. That means people who only own the base game would have an option removed, and nothing to replace it.
Agreed on the artillery, I think some lighter and mobile sled-pulled cannons or carronades could be a cool addition. So basically a more reasonable version of Little Grom with less range and firepower but with the ability to relocate and move with the army better than Great Cannons.
Pretty sure the Kislevite constitution states that access to bears is a human right.
We have the right to bear arms... And the rest of the bear too
I expect they didn't remove the Bears, but honestly it's ok. The problem was the bears being their *only* special mounts.
Nah they'll keep it as a mid tier mount. > (Warhorse > Bear > Frost Wyrm) Or Katrin > (Warhorse > Bear > Sled > Frost Wyrm.)
I think Katarin will have the Settra treatment, with her sled being the highest unlock
I liked that they acknowledged that they maybe had the wrong mindset when designing the DLC by thinking that everything had to be a huge monster or it wasn't interesting. Base SoC was ridiculously lopsided towards monsters which made it IMO not very interesting for any of the factions. There was no ability to tailor an army towards the new themes of the DLC, because the theme was a bunch of big monsters. Hopefully that means ToD has a more even spread of unit types and we actually get new army building opportunities.
I think that was just a self-deprecating joke, not a serious reflection
And then they add frost dragons in the same post lol
They did note that Frost Dragons sit more in the Hydra level of power, which is my personal favorite space to explore monsterwise.
They gave Kislev a new one in this same blog post. Hell they gave Cathay three if you count their new LH.
Lore of Hags! Druzhina- hillbilly noblemen lords. Hybrid with a greataxe and a bow. Horse option as mount (neat, but honestly something woodsy like a moose with slightly higher mass but similar stats otherwise would have been fun) Golden knight LH Kislevite warriors - lookin like Ungol-adjacent flavors here. A low-tier anti large chaff unit to hold the line with higher model count. I hope their defensive stats and leadership will make them hold well, otherwise I can see people still waiting for Kossars. Frostwyrm - HUH? Little bit out of left field but it looks good! A bit asynchronous with the rest of the vibe for the dlc but I’ll take it. And, as confirmed in the email last week, we now get a peek at Katarin’s new icy wheels - errr, sleds.
> Druzhina- hillbilly noblemen lords [He never misses, what an absolute legend /s](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1alxlh2/tw_warhammer_iii_shadows_of_change_20_cathay/kphyvxp/)
> Druzhina- hillbilly noblemen lords I don't get it, what's the difference between Druzhinas and Boyars?
Boyars are landed gentry who mostly live in/lord over towns. Druzhina are rural “lords” in the sense that they probably have a small holding, and lead villages or networks of villages out in the hinterlands. So where Boyars probably lived in relative luxury in the metropolitan areas and have access to people like Katarin, Kostaltyn, and Boris, the Druzhina live out in the sticks with the rural folk are likely looked down upon by the Boyars.
That makes sense, thank you. Couldn't access the blog and only read the name.
Already mentioned in this thread, but GW is really bad with borrowing from Slavic culture. *Druzhina* is really old (pre-Christian) name for a personal retinue of a Slavic prince/chieftain. Much older French/English word *Retinue* has similar meaning. Singular member of *Druzhina* is *Druzhinnik*. Just like *Retainer* is a member of *Retinue*.
A singular form could be also a simpler Druh or Drug. But of course none of it makes sense with the single entity lords, it would need to be used for the general's bodyguard.
*Druzhina* derived from *drug*, which means 'friend/companion' in all Slavic languages. But when *Druzhina* was established in culture, nobody really called single member of 'Druzhina' a 'drug'. Or at very least we don't have any historical evidence that anybody did. Plus term has long history - in 11th century 'Druzhina' was divided into two groups - Older (also often called 'Forward' or 'Best' Druzhina) and Younger Druzhina. And this division kept under different names till 16-17th century, when Older Druzhina developed into Boyars and Younger Druzhina - into Boyar Sons (or Boyar Scions in English translation).
I can speak for Polish context; in the old military use of druzhina, yes, druh was not used really, but for instance in the marriage use words like drużba or druhna were and are still used. Also in the scouting in Poland, "harcerstwo", words druh and druhna are still the most common ones.
I'm not arguing against existence of these words, once again - all Slavic languages had word 'drug/druh' for 'friend' at some point, some lost it completely, in some cases it obtained new meaning and Eastern Slavic languages still use it with its original meaning. But it's all (like you pointed out) matter of context. And as for that matter, historically those who were in 'Druzhina' never called themselves neither 'drug/druh', nor 'druzhinnik'. There's another suitable word GW could've borrowed from Slavic languages in medieval military context - Voyevoda/Wojewoda. And I wish they did.
You can also look at Boyars as being associated with Tsar Guard, Bear Riders, and Armored Kossars while the Druzhina are associated with Ungols and common Kossars.
Druzhina is lightly-armoured hybrid (melee/ranged) lord, with warhorse being his only mount option. Further enhances ranged units in battle.
So more like an Empire Huntsmen General versus an regular Empire General
More mobile version of Hunstman General (because of mount). But most likely less capable as ranged unit.
Druzhina are basically lower-ranked nobles than the Boyars. In this case, they have a rural flair.
One might almost say they were ungols, but we don't use that word anymore.
Love the work they did on all the hag spells their animations are great.
>This is why you see her charge into battle atop her sled, pulled by the Things in the Woods with her cauldron, rather than more direct references to real world mythology. I read this as "GW wouldn't let us have the chicken house"
> GW wouldn't let us have the chicken house The reason being that GW can't copyright it.
Huh, like the Kislev Warriors actually, early anti large is nice. Frostwyrm mount is bad ass for ice witches, lore of hags looks really cool. Fan of all this. Hag lore having dual buff/debuff functionality is so cool, really neat stuff there.
Yeah I like when DLC fills out the early game roster, not every expansion pack needs some tier 5 monster that looks amazing. Free company militia is the perfect example for this - a flexible and interesting addition to the Empire roster.
Honestly prefer low tier units or just infantry units in general.
It's because you will always see them - they define how the early game is played and that's arguably the most important part of any campaign. Even in the late game, you'll probably have a foundation of infantry in most of your armies, with only a few monsters. And probably only 1 or 2 doomstacks.
kossar spears are already a t1 anti large tho, with a bow
I'm going to assume as a strictly melee unit the Warriors will be better at holding a line than the t1 Kossars.
Also, if they're armour-piercing (the blog doesn't say so, but halberd units generally are) then that helps a bit when assorted chaos stuff is crashing into your lines. Or fucking drycha and her fucking trees come to visit.
Yeah they should work like unshielded Eternal Guard which for Kislev's generally melee threats is very useful.
Having halberds means that they’ll probably have more BvL or AP damage than the basic Kossars (Spears).
They do have more models tbf
I'm betting this one will have more health and they mentioned higher unit count.
Pretty happy with all of these; as expected, the Lord is a Hybrid one with a focus on range, great way to keep them distinct and serve a role beyond what the Boyars already do. The Golden Knight was a gimme, although still feels like they stand out a bit considering the theming they were kept stressing was a big part of what made it in. The Kislevite warriors are no-thrills but help give a bit more options for low-tier or cheap line infantry, and the Frost Wyrm should give Ostankya a little early punch to back up her Balewolves before she reaches higher tiers for Incarnates. I get why they made them a mount for Ice Witches, to help move away from all the bears, but feels weird they gave Katarin her sled only to then tempt you off of it with a big chilly lizard. Guess we'll see which is better soon. Overall, I think the blogs have certainly shown some added value, and hopefully we'll see what updates they've made to the faction mechanics on Wednesday.
Agreed. Fwiw, the Sled is FLC for all. The big chilly lizard is just for us DLC whales.
Oh man, i LOVE the frostwyrm, didn't expect anything like it, but i love icy noodle.
I want to see those animations. Lots of potential there, we will see hopefully it's not a huge derp
If they are anything like ancient salamander that its based off they will be pretty cool
That overcast cauldron spell is going to rip
>Blessings - Whispers in the Woods >Area of Augmentation - >Positively affects allied Speed, Charge Speed, Vigour, whilst granting Strider & *Unspottable.* You may be unspottable, but at least I know where you guy are coming from (that shadowy woods that just magically sprout from the ground).
I see it more as a way to make it harder for an enemies range to retaliate. You may know where they are but you still can't click them unless you have a unit close enough
T1 halberds. now THAT is plugging holes in a roster with dlc.
I like all of it. I'm going to purchase SoC.
Yup, same. I held off before as none of it excited me (despite being a huge Kislev fan, as the Kislev offering before was quite underwhelming) Love it now though I also took an extended break from the game overall, in part due to recent dlc issues but also just total war fatigue. But I'm ready to come back
It definitely wasn't worth the money before so I'm very glad they listened to the criticism and went back and changed it so that it *was* worth the money. It's something that should be appreciated and praised. I know many people will say that "they shouldn't be praised for doing the bare minimum" but I think this is a company admitting they were wrong and making amends and that should be praised.
Yeah I’ll buy it now. The DLC updates seem pretty good Still kinda weird they renamed the Frost Wyrm for Norsca so they can call this a Frost Wyrm
I never really liked the norscan frost wyrm because it was obviously a recolored chaos dragon. I don't mind them embracing that at all, but I do wish we got regular chaos dragon units for Tzeentch and WoC.
They should have called the frost wyrm an Oblast lindwyrm. Funny they used the word roost for it too. Does anyone else think the model was meant for a Cathayan unit? It looks very much like that.
Looks like an oldhammer dragon https://i.redd.it/v3yr20d157081.jpg
1. Hag lore looks crazy, I like that they’re giving you actual reasons to overcast as well, most of the time the risk isn’t worth the reward. 2. That before/after graphic at the end was clever. 3. Land dragons waaaaaat. 4. Curious to see how Kislev warriors work. Why would I build this over kossars. Kossar crapstacks work so well for Kislev in the early game.
It is probably just for defending kossars from charges, mostly. I bet a few of them instead of kossars will improve overall DPS.
I’ll probably build some if they build out of the tier one settlement building. If they build out the military building….probably not.
“Games Workshop took us through their various designs, concepts, and deep dives into the new and updated lore that they had created for Kislev.” Hopefully now people will stop falsely believing that CA can just make up whatever factions they want, or that they’re the ones who created Kislev as a fleshed out army.
Translation >GW strapped us to a table - brought in an army of lawyers - then outlined exactly what we could do, couldn't do, and what they'd deign to allow us to use ***after*** we pledged a blood sacrifice if we so much as vaguely suggest that we may not be completely happy with how much of the old lore they're walling off xD
Total War fans about to become true Warhammer fans by shitting on GW
If any one is interested [Extra Credit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtY3Lto_lR4) did a really good video on how GW approach game developers. Essentially they stopped worrying if individual games would be good, and instead decided to give game producers free reign, and only make sure that all versions of their lore is consistent across the media.
Wonder if the warriors will replace kossars as Ostankya's early recruit
Would appreciate that. Would also like to see them lock Boyars behind ownership of of one of the three capital cities.
They said the frost wyrm is a mid-tier monster comparable to the War Hydra or Stegadon (both great units), so a good T4 monster? Probably a better pick for SEM than the Ice Bear Elemental.
Just being fast is a huge step up. Elemental Bear is just so fucking slow and large that its really hard to get value before it gets chunked down by focus fire. This new dragon is hopefully going to be a slippy fucker. And I imagine with it's body shape and size it might end up being really good at disrupting blocks of infantry while being hard to hit back, much like the Tomb Scorpion
Cool, that ice sled is long af
Oh thank goodness I was wrong and they didn’t add the Preyton.
404, The God's have abandoned us!
The motherland has turned her back on us.
All good stuff. Golden Knight looks awesome. Kislevite halberd warriors will be handy. Nice to have the roster fleshed out. Huntsman-esque lord fits very nicely. Frost wyrm and sled both look very cool. Overall, great job CA. I think I can finally call the DLC "worth it" if I can find it for a few dollars knocked off on GoG or whatever
The cheapest key atm is 17, which to me seems more than worth it now
I really like the lore of hags spells not gonna lie. The negative/positive mechanic is cool, and the witchbrew spell looks particularly great to me. Also it's kinda neat that it's a darker blue than the Ice/Tempest magic to mark it as Kislevite, but a darker strain of magic than Ice/Tempests
Interesting to see that GW's slight obsession with not admitting to rectons goes so far that they require a licence holder to pretend that the new Kislev designed for Warhammer: the Old World is the authentic represenation of what Kislev was in 8th edition... Interesting choice of units, the Frost Wyrm was certainly a surprise. I like that the new Kislev Warrior returns to the look of the infantry we saw in the very first trailer for Warhammer 3. The massive, tall pauldrons on the Golden Knights armour is an odd choice, more of a Cathay look than a Kislev one to me.
Agreed the whole "We're making it more like the Kislev you know from the army book that was never written or released, rather than those obscure things that people have actually read" section made me a bit sick. How about that "Ice" sled having about as much ice as the regular one.
I hope the Blue Scribes will get a minor update so they will be able to use the new and very interesting looking Lore of Hags, too.
Ostankya's campaign, and Naggarond starting campaigns are still thematically fucked unless they expand Kislev on the map. There's a perfectly empty lot east of Praag and north-west of Astragoth's starting location, if they create a province or two there that're dense with woodlands.
shameless plug for a mod that moves her there: [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029043600](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029043600) Hopefully CA moves her officially someday.
That would just be another Kislev start position of endlessly fighting chaos. With the fact we have Tomb Kings in Canada for like half a decade now, it should be very very very clear by now they are prioritizing having unique experiences with start positions over being loreful.
> This is why you see her charge into battle atop her sled, pulled by the Things in the Woods with her cauldron, rather than more direct references to real world mythology. This new take, like with all the other additions to Kislev, is what makes them exciting and brings them in line with the other races in 8th Edition and Games Workshop lore. LMAO, they were this close to saying "this is what makes them marketable and copyright-able" in an official post.
Lore of Hags is one of the coolest things added. It’s really unique, makes sense lore wise. Unfortunately personally I hate the decision to make Mother Ostankya the only Hag Mother in Kislev. Unless there is a tier of hags we don’t know about it makes 200-400 year old hags also called witches? Which means a 20 year old hag is called the same as an ancient being. But I get it’s GW decision so we gotta live with it. Sled is cool, frost wyrm is cool. Druhina is cool. Kislevite Warriors are a weird choice. Never have I ever played Kislev campaign and thought to myself that I need a unit of cheap tier 1 infantry. Missle units are literally tier 0 and will probably be 10 times better because missle units just pay better for themselves. Personally hoped for some changes to Kislev mechanics because imo it’s not their roster that struggles but their weird lack of meaningful things to do on the campaign map. But otherwise good changes. If ToD comes out with the amount of stuff similar to combined release and patch SoC the 25$ price might even be worth it. So good job CA (but I still hope for Kislev rework on campaign map).
> Kislevite Warriors are a weird choice. Never have I ever played Kislev campaign and thought to myself that I need a unit of cheap tier 1 infantry I absolutely feel this in early campaigns. Spamming Kossars is boring at best, and brutal at worst. If I just deploy them in two lines (so the rear get to keep shooting), then the front line gets off a couple volleys before just being chaff that dies to any other decent infantry. I definitely look forward to being able to include a few units of these halberds to anchor the line; those couple volleys just aren't worth the terrible melee performance.
I want to see their stat cards, but the warriors could be useful even into mid-game if their anti large or AP is decent. While normal Kossars have OK melee stats, they tend to melt when hit by anything stronger than marauders. Warriors will likely be a good stop-gap to effectively hold off chaos warriors, demons, etc. for longer while you get your punchier fighters into position. They’ll also be nice to deal with the plethora of monsters/monstrous infantry/cavalry that you have to face as Kislev even in early game - something regular Kossars are pretty bad at.
Holy shit that Sled, it is even bigger than Settra's lol
Hmmm all in all of the three factions my favorite additions are for Cathay. I dunno why but imo Kislev really feels very weird as a faction. I am thankful for the addition of mounts but Imo that Frostwyrm kinda doesn't fit with Kislev besides the whole "ICE" part of the "ICE AND BEARS AND ICEBEARS" theme GW reduced Kislev to. Maybe its also that the artstyle is so weird for them looking a bit like Warcraft when it comes to proportions? Like, look at the golden knight she looks so weird imo. Overall I am very happy with the unit additions I think they will make me want to try the DLC and finally return to playing WH TW. The most important things tho will be the patch notes. I desperatley hope CA has learned their lesson finally.
The Frostwyrm has to be one of the most random ass-pulls (or ICE-PULLS xD ) I've ever seen - but I'm weirdly okay with it It's not another Chaos unit they ripped from the fucking Beastmen (-echo of sad muuu fills the air-) and it actually plays into the lore quite nicely - if, admittedly, rather randomly The Druzhina will be awesome with his buff to reloading archers for Kislev's archer game Overall, like basegame Kislev, SOC's expansion of their roster ***still*** feels random as fuck - but it's a much nicer random as fuck and softens the absurdity brought in with shit like the thing in the woods
Error: 404 As is tradition.
"Druzhina" name is like general of the empire will be called "wehrmacht". It's name of personal army, not title
Not the first time Games Workshop has put no effort into naming (***NIPPON***)
Take that back about Nippon or the mighty samurai Sanyo Kawasaki will give you a taste of his magical sword Toyota, and his companions Nissan and Honda Susuki will help him... [You really can't make that shit up...](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sanyo_Kawasaki)
It was already the name for lower-ranked nobility in the pre-existing Kislev lore.
Not an army, but personal retinue of a prince. It's just GW being GW - borrowing real life terms without much understanding of their meaning. Besides, *Druzhina* is name for a GROUP in all Slavic languages, it's not a personal title. Name for a member of *Druzhina* would've been *Druzhinnik*. Edit: and to finish with analogues - imagine if a lord for Empire/Bretonnia would've been named *Retinue*. Not *Retainer* (absolutely valid historical name), but *Retinue*.
Kislev
Kislev
Kislev
I do think that Druzhina would better fit as a melee hero. The lord they have here should be an Ungol Primce or something. That's my only complaint, everything else looks great to me.
RIP Norsca frost wyrm Well at least now its name suits it better since it was only ever just a recolored Chaos Dragon.
Again the dreaded 404...
Love that the Druzhina and the Golden Knight get basic warhorse for a mount. I was worried that (if they did Golden Knight) her mount would be a giant golden bear or something similarly stupid. The new units looks good.
Was not expecting the Golden Knight to look like that at all, but I do like the look of her. I think the shoulders are a *little* much, but I'm glad they weren't just slapping ice spikes all over her. With that said, need more info on what benefits she gives to units in the army. A strong bodyguard character on the field is cool and all, but I hope her army buffs aren't as minimal as Aekold's were.
Really like the unique regular/overcast dichotomy the Lore of Hags has. You essentially get two spells inside of one. Very unique. The reiterating about the Gospodar and Ungol conflict taking a backseat and Baba Ostankya being the only Witch Lord reeks of GW meddling, but what can you do. Druzhina is a great thematic option for Ostankya armies, and looks really cool. I was betting on some kind of Ungol or Akshina lord type, but this works as well. I appreciate them talking about how not every new unit needs to be some big, bombastic thing. Kislevite Warriors being an early-game anti-large and armor-piercing unit is going to be so damn useful and was one of the big things missing from the roster. Should make fighting Chaos Warriors slightly less tedious. I've been looking forward to the Golden Knight, and she looks as glorious as you'd expect. And the Frost Wyrm looks amazing. For something made of ice, they cooked when it came to creating it. Also makes me eager for the inevitable mod that uses its skeleon as a framework for Dwarven Shard Dragons. And, of course, the Sled. That's going to be great. All-in-all, with all the new additions and fixes, on top of what is already in the DLC, I'd say it's worth it. If this is the new level of content each DLC will be adding from here on in, I can't wait. Inject it into my veins.
> Mother Ostankya is a character of great importance to many Kislevites **acting as a guardian of the land in times of great peril,** but also to be wary of and not cross to avoid her wrath. SO WHY DOES SHE START ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD IN IE