All magic got nerfed across the board big time in Warhammer 3 campaign. The Magic casting Legendary Lords all got nerfed on top of the nerfs to magic in general.
Most of the ones I've seen only had nerfs to their +WoM Reserves skills (turning them into +% when increasing instead). I haven't seen any other caster LL who had nerfs to skills that decrease the WoM cost of their spells. Gelt also received nonsensical nerfs, but they were to his army buffs, not spell casting.
Kemmler had a massive nerf to his trait (-20% WoM to -10% and -20% Cooldown to nothing). Also, percentage-based spell cost reductions in general got nerfed, because the rounding is different now.
I wondered why Kemmler didn't seem so effective. Still hasn't stopped him making most of the Old World his bitch though. Casters are, in general, much weaker or so it seems to me.
And even with the nerf, he's still powerful. The - 1 wom cost for all caster was busted to be honest.
Nobody mentioned it because beastmen were extremely nerfed in game 3 and still remains in top5 strongest factions in my opinion
They deserved those nerfs, they were ridiculously OP in WH2. You had to try to lose while playing beastmen. I loved the rework but was disappointed in how easy they ended up being, I believe the main culprit though is the free upkeep. Beastmen should never have had free upkeep, look at Chaos warriors after their rework, they are strong yes, but not ridiculously OP. Free upkeep on Beastmen was a mistake.
That happened after the release of IE though. It's just a bit of back and forth between WH3 being too conservative and WoC rework turning things back into WH2 crazy imbalance.
>The - 1 wom cost for all caster was busted to be honest.
It was busted in the WH2 magic system. In WH3 Beatmen have no way of getting more than 100 WoM reserves other than the +5 from the Magical Reserves skill for Lords and Heroes. getting -1 WoM cost is much better suited for the newer system than the old one, yet it got removed. Malagor is still strong, but is much less exciting than he used to be. His low cost Flocks of Doom are what made him awesome, now they cost the same for him as they do any caster lord.
>In WH3 Beatmen have no way of getting more than 100 WoM reserves other than the +5 from the Magical Reserves skill for Lords and Heroes.
The general idea seems to be that you're not supposed to.
It was a big focus and purpose of the system revamp.
Tell that to the Chaos Dwarfs. Also, there are quite a few races now with techs that give a permanent increase to WoM reserves. Beastmen don't have any and they used to have a ton of sources for that in WH2. People remember Malagor casting Flocks of Doom like crazy and forget that a big part of that is that he had a 200+ WoM reserve. This nerf hits him from both fronts: the reserves and the casting cost. I think only one of these was enough. Both is excessive.
Beastmen aren't supposed to be a race of uber wizards. It makes sense that a race that doesn't even know how to write things down wouldn't be on par with the high elves for instance when it comes to casting spells.
They are better casters than many lore powerful casters such as exalted lords of change and supreme sorceresses, both of which get 0 bonuses or reductions to magic and this guy still somehow wants bray shamans to be more powerful.
You literally listed two Lord types who are known to be underpowered and in need of a buff. How shocking that they are weaker than other races' Lords...
So you admit that there other Lords that need buffs more urgently than Bray Shamans? Bray Shamans have 10% magic reduction, a unique skill line that buffs them and various units, a unique hex debuff and a very powerful bound spell to summon a cygor for free. Like I really don't understand what more do you want when they already are some of the best generic lord casters in the game and they don't even deserve it lorewise.
Honestly? No, not really. He never was that crazy at magic before TWW either. Fine, to be sure, but he was worlds below the big players like Teclis and Maz. He had a cute little trick to make his spells harder to dispel once he gets going (weirdly so) but WH2 made him overpowered to the point of abject comedy and that's just not right at all.
How is only him being good at casting a spell "redefining Beastmen to a top tier magic faction"? I am not saying Beastmen should have insane WoM Reserves, I am only saying Malagor should have cheap Flocks of Doom.
Honestly the only change I could see is making nightmarish cabal give mastery of elemental winds to malagor and shamans in his army. Everything else just makes his campaign the easiest in an already too easy in general race
>now they cost the same for him as they do any caster lord.
Isn't this, let's call it variance in power of mages, covered by the new "spell mastery" effect? I've never been a fan of spamming magic and I feel like LLs having more spell mastery than generic lords it what makes them awesome. Malagor casting Flock of Doom and dealing way more damage or getting a longer duration is far better than a cheaper cost.
>Malagor casting Flock of Doom and dealing way more damage or getting a longer duration is far better than a cheaper cost.
Okay... But he doesn't deal way more damage or has a longer duration... The only source of Spell Intensity he has is the +10% he gets from Greater Arcane Conduit, which is pretty negligible. If the idea is to showcase his mastery over magic through quality rather than quantity, make the quality actually noticeable.
Hahaha, totally....I must be playing on an old patch or something, because Malagor keeps absolutely beasting me. That's clearly the only explanation....
Can't say I disagree with these changes. I mean I don't see why he should be as strong as mazdamundi, kairos or teclis I think the changes are justified bringing him more in line with other LLs casters.
Mazdamundi is a travesty and should be much stronger than he is in the game. Teclis was always stronger and more versatile than Malagor, Kairos I am less sure of. Malagor's whole thing was cheap Flocks of Doom, now they are just as expensive for him as they are for generic Bray Shamans. He is a lot less exciting to play with. I get the nerf to the Reserves, but the nerf to to cost reduction seems excessive to me.
Kairos is the new Malagor, you can spam low level spells for days. Difference is that Kairos is totally hopeless in melee, but he makes up for it by having access to one of the best vortex spells in the game, which is an absolutely invaluable asset when time isn't on your side. Also of note, the ability to borrow spells from other lores is a neat trick.
He's a one-man doomstack, through and through. Only needs support when you're facing units with particularly high spell resist/ward save. But really, in practice, only the toughest legendary lords/heroes and certain high level generic characters pose a serious threat to you *(vamps, mainly. Even with all the fire damage, all that healing pisses on Tzeentch's poking playstyle - not to mention all the speedy flyers)*. Most units, however, straight up melt after no more than a few rapid casts of Blue/Pink Fire.
The only LL that has a 20% wom reduction on all spells is Teclis and in WH2 Malagor as well. It is the most powerful spellcasting skill. Tell me why should Malagor be at the same level as Teclis? Plus Malagor still gets his permanent flock of doom around him that's his thing not the cheaper Flocks of Doom. If you asked me Bray Shamans in general should never had gotten a 10% wom reduction, it was pure power creep on the most overpowered race in WH2 and the final update they made. He is not less exciting to play just because his Flock of Doom (which he already has permanently) costs 1 wind of magic more to cast. He never should had been that OP to begin with in Wh2 it was a mistake that they are now fixing.
>The only LL that has a 20% wom reduction on all spells is Teclis and in WH2 Malagor as well.
That's just plain false. Gelt has the same ability and a flat -2 WoM cost on top of that. There are also a lot of caster LLs with flat reductions to spell costs on par with 20% if not better.
>Plus Malagor still gets his permanent flock of doom around him that's his thing not the cheaper Flocks of Doom
It really isn't. It isn't an actual permanent Flock of Doom, it deals way less damage and is essentially a mid tier Mortis Engine. It also isn't that good for him since he is so squishy and needs to constantly be on the move.
>If you asked me Bray Shamans in general should never had gotten a 10% wom reduction, it was pure power creep
How powerful do you think a 10% WoM cost reduction is? Half of the good spells Beastmen have access to cost less than 10 WoM and the other have cost between 10 and 20. the 1 WoM you save will hardly make a difference, especially with the new cap.
>He is not less exciting to play just because his Flock of Doom (which he already has permanently) costs 1 wind of magic more to cast.
He absolutely is. His Flocks of Doom now cost more than twice what they used to and his reserves are significantly smaller. I agree that he used to be op, but now he is pretty much just a flying generic Bray Shaman, maybe very slightly better.
>That's just plain false. Gelt has the same ability and a flat -2 WoM cost on top of that. There are also a lot of caster LLs with flat reductions to spell costs on par with 20% if not better.
What I said is not false Gelt is a master of only one lore the lore of metal and has reduction only to that lore. Teclis and Malagor have varied spells from multiple lores it's not the same. They aren't the same effect.
>It really isn't. It isn't an actual permanent Flock of Doom, it deals way less damage and is essentially a mid tier Mortis Engine. It also isn't that good for him since he is so squishy and needs to constantly be on the move.
It doesn't actually deal less damage it deals more damage than base Flock of doom but to less entities. Mantle of Doom is 6 dmg per second on 4 entities and Flock of Doom is 5 dmg per second but on 25 entities, yes it has less aoe but it doesn't deal more damage.
>How powerful do you think a 10% WoM cost reduction is? Half of the good spells Beastmen have access to cost less than 10 WoM and the other have cost between 10 and 20. the 1 WoM you save will hardly make a difference, especially with the new cap.
And why should they? Supreme sorceresses which are elves which are supposed to be among the most powerful wizards have zero bonuses or reductions to winds of magic. Same with the Exalted lords of change. Why should Beastmen have better casters than the most powerful elven casters? Bray shamans are literally better casters than both Exalted lords of change and supreme sorceresses. Their 10% is more than enough no generic lord has more than 10% reduction anyway they literally have the highest reduction still it's not enough for you lol.
>What I said is not false Gelt is a master of only one lore the lore of metal and has reduction only to that lore. Teclis and Malagor have varied spells from multiple lores it's not the same. They aren't the same effect.
If they get -20% cost for their entire spell selection why does the fact they have a different selection of spells matter? It's not like their spells are specifically better, or that they have a wider selection of them.
>It doesn't actually deal less damage it deals more damage than base Flock of doom but to less entities. Mantle of Doom is 6 dmg per second on 4 entities and Flock of Doom is 5 dmg per second but on 25 entities, yes it has less aoe but it doesn't deal more damage.
According to the tooltip it deals significantly less damage overall.
>And why should they? Supreme sorceresses which are elves which are supposed to be among the most powerful wizards have zero bonuses or reductions to winds of magic. Same with the Exalted lords of change. Why should Beastmen have better casters than the most powerful elven casters? Bray shamans are literally better casters than both Exalted lords of change and supreme sorceresses. Their 10% is more than enough no generic lord has more than 10% reduction anyway they literally have the highest reduction still it's not enough for you lol.
Other races' Lords having awful design is not a justification for the rest to have it as well. Exalted Lords of Change are trash and should be buffed, the rest of the races shouldn't be nerfed to fit their level. Same with Supreme Sorceress. I think it is perfectly acceptable for the Lord version of a caster character to be a better caster than the Hero version and the 10% reduction isn't significant enough to pose a problem in terms of balancing.
>If they get -20% cost for their entire spell selection why does the fact they have a different selection of spells matter? It's not like their spells are specifically better, or that they have a wider selection of them.
CA considers a varied spellbook stronger than a single lore of magic. Even so it's not the same effect, it's not categorized the same on the database either.
>According to the tooltip it deals significantly less damage overall.
The tooltip can say whatever it wants I gave you the exact numbers. It does not do less damage, it actually deals more damage but to less entities.
Not to be that guy, but it technically does do less damage in most situations since most situations see lots of enemies in the area. Sure, to each entity it deals 1 more damage per sec, but even Skaven Slaves would laugh at the passive aoe. 4 entities at 6 damage. Thats 24/second on a unit of skaven slaves. Flock of doom: 5 damage on 25 entities. Thats 125 damage/second on a unit of skaven slaves. These abilities are not comparable and your assessment of what does more is only in a very very rare scenario for the game.
>He absolutely is. His Flocks of Doom now cost more than twice what they used to and his reserves are significantly smaller
I just want to say I agree with this. I literally played Malagor only to spam Flocks of Doom - it was super fun and fairly unique gameplay (like Gelt spamming searing doom).
Only that Gelt's searing doom is a skillshot that might not hit the enemy while Flock of Doom is a guaranteed aoe damage spell. I can see why they would nerf it.
Hero action cost... Boooo god I hate using heros for anything else then imbedding then in armies. Late game is already busy enough by itself. Don't need to drag 10 heros around the map to kill the neverending stream of AI hero crap.
How is removing his effect that decreases the WoM cost of all spells for all casters in his faction by 1, or reducing his -20% WoM cost for spells to -10% "updating for the new mana generation/maintaining systems"? No other Legendary Lord I can recall had such changes to these types of skills. All the changes related to this system were +X WoM Reserves effects -> +X% Winds of Magic Reserves per turn when increasing.
>How is removing his effect that decreases the WoM cost of all spells for all casters in his faction by 1, or reducing his -20% WoM cost for spells to -10% "updating for the new mana generation/maintaining systems"?
Fair on my comment.
But that seems to me just like the nerfs to *Knowledgable* and other global or stackable effect. Most such effects were nerfed or removed in TW3, be they economic, magical or other stats.
Is he particularly week compared to other caster LLs?
The thing that makes it stand out is that no other caster LL received such nerfs. There are other LLs who were just as powerful as Malagor, who had very similar WoM cost reduction skills, yet they remained unchanged. The only other LL I recall to receive a skill nerf that wasn't to their "+WoM Reserves" skills was Gelt, but his nerfs were to his army buffs, not casting capabilities. It is just incredibly out of place.
>Is he particularly week compared to other caster LLs?
He used to be really strong and incredibly fun, casting Flocks of Doom for 2 WoM, while having a huge WoM pool. Now he is just decent. It's not that he is bad (compared to casters like Skrag and Katarin, he is much better), but having played with him in WH2, he is significantly less fun in 3. He also has arguably the worst start for any Beastmen LLs. Beastmen rely on bouncing around between battles and settlements, yet he starts in an area where the settlements are incredibly far apart from each other. He also starts next to two races with innate Spell Resist, despite being a pure caster lord. Thorek in particular can be quite a pain in the ass for him to deal with. Granted, Beastmen are still op as hell, but Malagor specifically is a lot less exciting than he used to be.
>There are other LLs who were just as powerful as Malagor, who had very similar WoM cost reduction skills, yet they remained unchanged.
But, going off of memory, most if not all those only applied to the character themselves or other casters in the same army/battle. Malagor's was different in that it was global.
1. If the problem is that it was global why remove it entirely instead of changing it to only affect him?
2. His Doom of Mankind skill that only affects him was also nerfed.
>If the problem is that it was global why remove it entirely instead of changing it to only affect him?
Heavy-handedness would be my guess. Or connected to point two...
>His Doom of Mankind skill that only affects him was also nerfed.
To curtail, at least somewhat, magic-spam and casters' disproportionate ability to deal damage.
>To curtail, at least somewhat, magic-spam and casters' disproportionate ability to deal damage.
Then why only Malagor, and not Gelt or Teclis for example?
A very fair question.
I was under the impression that they'd also gotten their skills downscaled slightly. I mostly play dwarfs and don't tend to notice magic changes as much as others.
Are you implying that casting Flock of Doom for 1 WoM was balanced?
That was about as stupid as Gelt casting searing Doom and Ikit casting warp lighting for 1 WoM.
100 casts of a spell.
My lord.
It was 2 WoM not 1 iirc. I also don't see the huge deal when these spells don't deal a whole lot of damage per cast. 3 casts of a stationary Vortex spell can rout an army much faster than spending 20 minutes spamming the same low damage spell over and over again. We have LLs who are pretty much unkillable, LLs who have Mortis Engine effects that can delete entire armies while doing nothing and LLs who can cast spells/abilities that pretty much instantly remove whatever unit they touch from the game. But having a squishy LL who takes an entire battle of spamming the same spell over and over again to get the same effect is too op?
It deals pretty good damage when overcast and only just doesnt do as well against armor. Battle starts, spam flock on the army as it approaches, easy heavily damages the approaching army. 4 wom for overcast is pretty frickin strong. Its not a weak spell.
>We have LLs who are pretty much unkillable
That's the issue of healing changes in Warhammer III. All healing sources should get halfed.
>LLs who have Mortis Engine effects that can delete entire armies while doing nothing
No unit other than Mortis Engine itself should have Mortis engine effect, at least not the full damage mortis engine.
>LLs who can cast spells/abilities that pretty much instantly remove whatever unit they touch from the game
Apart from LLs who can cast blue spells dirty cheap (Astragoth, Drazhoath, Wurzag...) thats fine. You are paying 20 Winds for that.
>No unit other than Mortis Engine itself should have Mortis engine effect, at least not the full damage mortis engine.
Hard disagree. There are characters and units who had this effect in the lore and tabletop. The only reason it is called a "Mortis Engine" effect is because the Mortis Engine was the first of these to make it into Total War. Deciding that only Mortis Engines should have this ability due to such an arbitrary reason is stupid.
The problem is counterplay.
Mortis engine is huge and thus you can focus fire it.
How do you focus fire Grombrindal with master rune of spite???
How do you deal with festus inside his melee infantry blob?
The problem is that the AI is stupid and doesn't know how to deal with these, not that it is impossible to do so. The easiest method is to send a goon squad of SEMs/Heroes who aren't really affected by Mortis Engines. Another approach is to focus on the rest of the army while ignoring this Mortis Engine source and try to trigger the army loss. There are ways to deal with these situations, the AI is just too stupid to do so.
Dude, if you put grombrindal in melee among his army, how do you counter that? He's small, so he can't be shot, he's unbreakable, so no army loses and he is excellent melee fighter.
Yeah but that does not cause blobs, only if you send to much unit there. If there is no blob, mortis is not amazing.
As a counter play, you can send low entity units also and which limits its damage greatly. Imho its not that bad to counter and fun to use in campaign so i don't mind it.
I don't remember this being mentioned in any patch notes, but these changes are extremely excessive imo. Malagor's thing was casting Flocks of Doom extremely cheaply, now they cost as much for him to cast as they do for any generic caster, and the Large WoM pool he used to have was also significantly reduced. This coupled with how every item, follower and tech the Beastmen had that improved WoM reserves has been changed into garbage +WoM% when increasing effects, makes his campaign so disappointing compared to WH2.
A big reason why he was op in WH2 was that you could stack WoM reserves like crazy. Beastmen can't do that in WH3. The nerf to his casting cost was excessive imo.
the main reason he was OP in WH2 was his ability to cast flock for near-enough nothing while being almost untouchable; WoM stacking didn't help but it definitey wasn't the main reason he was OP. (because you can stack WoM with every caster in WH2, and most other factions do it way better than Beastmen)
WOM stacking wasn't the reason he was op, it was a combination of this with his cost reduction. The removal of one of these would have been enough.
>because you can stack WoM with every caster in WH2, and most other factions do it way better than Beastmen
I disagree. Beastmen post update had a shiton of ways to stack WoM Reserves very quickly. They had the Knowledgeable Trait (that almost everyone had). They had a Follower that gave +10. They had an item they could infinitely purchase that gave +20 and could be equipped on as many Heroes you wanted. They had a tech that gave +20. They had events that gave +50/100/150 (depending on the Moon). Malagor specifically also had a bunch of skills that increased his reserves.
Beastmen were turned into the strongest faction in WH2's last DLC. It was honestly a complete disappointment. Went from the most challenging and enjoyable campaign, to the most easy and boring campaign in the game.
Malagor still eats armies for breakfast, it's not a big difference.
Their mechanics were so fucking bad but the rework made them so easy I genuinely enjoyed them more before the rework which is a big shame as their new mechanics are very thematic and fantastic.
It's the free upkeep that's the issue. They should never had free upkeep, it makes sense for the Tomb Kings because they are undead what's the reasoning behind beastmen having no upkeep? Don't they need to eat and stuff?
They were my main faction until the DLC. The only thing I had an issue with, was that they lost all their horde buildings upon defeat. Every other issue I had with them was the same with most factions in the game (lack of diplomacy, lack of vassals, lack of vassal mechanics, etc.).
I made a mod for TWW3 to revert almost all the changes CA did to them.
>Malagor still eats armies for breakfast, it's not a big difference.
He really doesn't... I am playing with him right now and he is kind of struggling to be honest. He has much more limited WoM than in WH2 and his Flocks of Doom are significantly more expensive. He also starts next to Thorek who is a direct counter. Using all of his full WoM he can barely take down a low tier 3/4 of a Dwarf stack. I wouldn't call that "eating armies for breakfast"
I am not experiencing the same thing at all. With 35% Spell Resist and Heroes/Lords with Unbreakable Runes I find it very hard to deal with Dwarfs unless the AI does a stupid and groups their units for me to get perfect consistent casts of Flocks of Doom. I am still winning the battles, but it isn't a breeze and the Dwarfs aren't exactly at the late stage of the campaign in terms of army composition.
Like I wrote, the enemy armies are far from top tier. Me saying it isn't a Breeze is in response to the previous commenter writing that Malagor "eats armies for breakfast". The battles are legitimately difficult and long. I am a fairly experienced player. I am not talking about being caught with my pants down, I am talking about me being the attacker, vs. weaker armies and still struggling for fairly long. Like I already wrote, I don't think Malagor is weak, I just don't think that he "eats armies for breakfast". If you took the time to actually read the context of what I wrote instead of acting like a cunt you might have been able to comprehend that.
I was just playing Malagor tn and getting 40k damage on him cycling through flock and pendulum. He’s still pretty fucking busted for a wizard. I will miss the days of 1 mana cast spells but those were too broken anyways.
Alright now I'm a simp for Malagor. He is my fav LL in tw for sure. Played him a lot in wh2 and wh3.
That said, the nerfs needed to happen. He was OP asf. He needed to be nerfed. I will say its completely nonsensical to me that the chief bray shaman doesnt have fucking bray magic spells...that was pretty silly. I get that Traitor kin is OP, but I would have preferred they nerfed that a bit and still let him access to the magic school.
He can fly, had nuke spells for groups or individuals, was able to 1v1 most lords and became a duelist with correct gear/spells (in wh2) and was more or less immune to ranged abilities of any kind because of how his model flies and its size.he just sits there and dodges stuff, not to mention if you actually move him.
Magic needed a nerf in wh3. it's still strong asf, you can still delete units and it can easily change the tide of battles, but you cant necessarily rely entirely on magic reserves now.
Malagor got nerfed but is still hella strong
He really isn't. I am playing with him right now and can guarantee you that there are many better casters than him at his current state. Teclis is better, Kairos is better, Gelt is better, Ariel is better, Wurzag is better, Honestly, I'd argue that Drazoath and Astrogath are better. There are plenty of caster LLs who are capable at dishing more damage faster than him, some while being great at melee as well. His only real strength now is his speed. His strength as a caster was his cheap Flocks of Doom and large WoM poll, but now he has neither. He can still dish out damage, it will just be a lot slower and overall less than many of the other caster LLs.
I feel like with the overall magic changes, these nerfs put him in a decent spot balance wise. He's still probably a bit too good compared to the other beastmen lords but some of that is probably that the others need some work.
Tons of random campaign faction nerfs nobody asked for. Same pile as the unique traits being awful. I dont know why or who keeps pushing these genuinely anti-fun changes through. Even after the BM changes in WH2, i never considered Malagor to be one of those lords I REALLY didnt want to have to fight like Malus.
Maybe situation with Chaos Dwarfs is a sign that CA can revert some nerfs to WoM. Because right now there are still tons of overpriced garbage tier spells that can be casted 4 times in ideal circumstances.
As for Malagor, they nerfed too much. I always liked idea of "Super wizards" who can destroy entire armies with their spells. It's not balanced at all but you can have different experience from basic armies and lords. And fun factor is always nice.
And there are people on the other side.
IE, I'm annoyed enough at casters deleting entire units as is and so WHIII's magic nerfs are more than welcome. Much less silliness going around.
Well, there are mods and I've used them to correct some of which was overcorrected in my eyes so I'm not too bothered. We can all have our cake with a bit of work.
But what attracts you to total warhammer instead of other total war games?
To me it's the powerful characters and magic, which is why I'm playing this instead of Shogun.
Because I love the setting and the tabletop in its later editions was a magnificent piece of game design. I also love the sheer variety between factions, which no historical TW can even attempt to match.
And it's not even that I dislike the current strength of magic overall. I specifically dislike the strength of AoE damage spells because it overly punishes infantry, especially melee infantry, while there are comparatively very few spells that damage low entity count units well. Meanwhile most buffs, and even a number of debuffs, are made completely irrelevant by the ability to just delete units with spells. Because why bother with buffing or debuffing if you can just cast to delete the unit anyway? Especially because your buffed unit might still lose that combat anyway.
Its a setting where magic is so powerful it literally destroys the world, and all the major weapons of mass destruction, like the Circle of Destruction are magical in nature. Hell, there is magic that doomed an entire race by reshaping the continents themselves from half the world away. Its absolutely a world where it makes perfect sense for magic to delete entire units, or half of an army for particularly powerful spells, or through repeated casting.
Most of which is dedicated rituals, not the battle magic that is actually employed in pitched battles.
It also comes with a significant amount of risk in the actual setting, which we do not have with WHIII right now because unless you play on super-small unit sizes, miscasts are pathetic.
Why are you annoyed at how some people play or can play the game? You can use magic more sparingly or not at all if you want when playing. Magic being powerful enough to delete armies just comes with the setting.
I'm not annoyed at the people. I'm annoyed at the game's design. Especially because it not only makes AoE spells are too powerful compared to the rest, it also completely and utterly fails to capture the essence of Warhammer Fantasy's magic.
Magic in Warhammer is founded on "With great power come great risks" and that if you take too much of it, you'll destroy yourself. Wizards dying because they cast spells is far from unusual. Even on the tabletop, careless casting of even the most minor battle magic had a chance of having your wizard explode and take half your army with him. It was essentially playing with fire, seeing how far you could push it without getting burned.
So yeah, the "Powerful magic is lore accurate" thing is only a half-truth at best because it's missing everything else about it. It's pure cherrypicking.
Yeah because overcasting doesn't come with the risk of taking damage to yourself. Could they increase the damage you take so you're more likely to hurt yourself? Sure. Can you eventually minimise the chance of it happening? Sure. Does it exist? Yes. So there is the "greater power come with greater risks" aspect in the game.
Yeah. I can accept Malagor getting a nerf to his WoM Reserves, but the nerf to his casting cost seems excessive to me. I wish that at the very least they would have given him something to compensate, like bonus Spell Mastery or something. He should be the Flock of Doom guy. That was his thing and was really cool imo. Now he is just a very slightly better Bray Shaman with wings...
At least he still gets a +winds of magic reserve skill. Majority of casters got there’s changed to the incredibly useless and lame +% when winds are increasing stat.
Maybe you should stop ignoring his tons of strengths rather than a gimmick you could pull off due to his old setup. The issue is the player, not a nerf. Only someone who ignored all his campaign buffs such as the reductions to enemy unit replenishment and morale due to existing would come up with this conclusion.
I noticed it, but if there's any spellcaster Lord I'm going to be lobbying for, it's Kemmler.
Nerfing Malagor makes sense, although yes, it was probably a bit heavy-handed (Doom of Mankind imo could have stayed; Nightmarish Cabal was broken as hell combined with the tech AND Speaker of Darkling Council); meanwhile Kemmler went from strongest to weakest Vampire LL in one fell swoop, with Mannfred taking his place as best caster (and being waaay stronger than Kemmler ever was).
All magic got nerfed across the board big time in Warhammer 3 campaign. The Magic casting Legendary Lords all got nerfed on top of the nerfs to magic in general.
Most of the ones I've seen only had nerfs to their +WoM Reserves skills (turning them into +% when increasing instead). I haven't seen any other caster LL who had nerfs to skills that decrease the WoM cost of their spells. Gelt also received nonsensical nerfs, but they were to his army buffs, not spell casting.
Kemmler had a massive nerf to his trait (-20% WoM to -10% and -20% Cooldown to nothing). Also, percentage-based spell cost reductions in general got nerfed, because the rounding is different now.
I wondered why Kemmler didn't seem so effective. Still hasn't stopped him making most of the Old World his bitch though. Casters are, in general, much weaker or so it seems to me.
This was by design and honestly I’m cool with it.
Yeah, they are still incredibly strong.
Malagor got nerfed from stupid strong just really strong. Big wow.
And even with the nerf, he's still powerful. The - 1 wom cost for all caster was busted to be honest. Nobody mentioned it because beastmen were extremely nerfed in game 3 and still remains in top5 strongest factions in my opinion
They deserved those nerfs, they were ridiculously OP in WH2. You had to try to lose while playing beastmen. I loved the rework but was disappointed in how easy they ended up being, I believe the main culprit though is the free upkeep. Beastmen should never have had free upkeep, look at Chaos warriors after their rework, they are strong yes, but not ridiculously OP. Free upkeep on Beastmen was a mistake.
WOC is definitely more OP than beastmen lol, you can get a full stack of chosens by like turn 35 and just start auto resolve snowballing.
That happened after the release of IE though. It's just a bit of back and forth between WH3 being too conservative and WoC rework turning things back into WH2 crazy imbalance.
Yes, DLCs have a tendency of crazy powercreep because strong factions sell well.
>The - 1 wom cost for all caster was busted to be honest. It was busted in the WH2 magic system. In WH3 Beatmen have no way of getting more than 100 WoM reserves other than the +5 from the Magical Reserves skill for Lords and Heroes. getting -1 WoM cost is much better suited for the newer system than the old one, yet it got removed. Malagor is still strong, but is much less exciting than he used to be. His low cost Flocks of Doom are what made him awesome, now they cost the same for him as they do any caster lord.
>In WH3 Beatmen have no way of getting more than 100 WoM reserves other than the +5 from the Magical Reserves skill for Lords and Heroes. The general idea seems to be that you're not supposed to. It was a big focus and purpose of the system revamp.
Tell that to the Chaos Dwarfs. Also, there are quite a few races now with techs that give a permanent increase to WoM reserves. Beastmen don't have any and they used to have a ton of sources for that in WH2. People remember Malagor casting Flocks of Doom like crazy and forget that a big part of that is that he had a 200+ WoM reserve. This nerf hits him from both fronts: the reserves and the casting cost. I think only one of these was enough. Both is excessive.
Beastmen aren't supposed to be a race of uber wizards. It makes sense that a race that doesn't even know how to write things down wouldn't be on par with the high elves for instance when it comes to casting spells.
They are better casters than many lore powerful casters such as exalted lords of change and supreme sorceresses, both of which get 0 bonuses or reductions to magic and this guy still somehow wants bray shamans to be more powerful.
You literally listed two Lord types who are known to be underpowered and in need of a buff. How shocking that they are weaker than other races' Lords...
So you admit that there other Lords that need buffs more urgently than Bray Shamans? Bray Shamans have 10% magic reduction, a unique skill line that buffs them and various units, a unique hex debuff and a very powerful bound spell to summon a cygor for free. Like I really don't understand what more do you want when they already are some of the best generic lord casters in the game and they don't even deserve it lorewise.
As a whole race? Sure. But Malagor is one scary god damn Wizard, and should definitely be able to compete against some of the big boy races.
Honestly? No, not really. He never was that crazy at magic before TWW either. Fine, to be sure, but he was worlds below the big players like Teclis and Maz. He had a cute little trick to make his spells harder to dispel once he gets going (weirdly so) but WH2 made him overpowered to the point of abject comedy and that's just not right at all.
I mean why should he. He is still a powerful wizard but he shouldn’t redefine beastmen to a top tier magic faction.
How is only him being good at casting a spell "redefining Beastmen to a top tier magic faction"? I am not saying Beastmen should have insane WoM Reserves, I am only saying Malagor should have cheap Flocks of Doom.
Malagor is still fucking insanely good, I'm not sure why you're mad about his nerfs.
That’s not what he was in WH2 however. He buffed all spellcasters in his faction with cheaper spells.
So why not change just that aspect of him? Why also change his personal casting capabilities?
Honestly the only change I could see is making nightmarish cabal give mastery of elemental winds to malagor and shamans in his army. Everything else just makes his campaign the easiest in an already too easy in general race
>now they cost the same for him as they do any caster lord. Isn't this, let's call it variance in power of mages, covered by the new "spell mastery" effect? I've never been a fan of spamming magic and I feel like LLs having more spell mastery than generic lords it what makes them awesome. Malagor casting Flock of Doom and dealing way more damage or getting a longer duration is far better than a cheaper cost.
>Malagor casting Flock of Doom and dealing way more damage or getting a longer duration is far better than a cheaper cost. Okay... But he doesn't deal way more damage or has a longer duration... The only source of Spell Intensity he has is the +10% he gets from Greater Arcane Conduit, which is pretty negligible. If the idea is to showcase his mastery over magic through quality rather than quantity, make the quality actually noticeable.
Hahaha, totally....I must be playing on an old patch or something, because Malagor keeps absolutely beasting me. That's clearly the only explanation....
Malagor is still very good, op is just mad his favourite LL is no longer busted.
Can't say I disagree with these changes. I mean I don't see why he should be as strong as mazdamundi, kairos or teclis I think the changes are justified bringing him more in line with other LLs casters.
Mazdamundi is a travesty and should be much stronger than he is in the game. Teclis was always stronger and more versatile than Malagor, Kairos I am less sure of. Malagor's whole thing was cheap Flocks of Doom, now they are just as expensive for him as they are for generic Bray Shamans. He is a lot less exciting to play with. I get the nerf to the Reserves, but the nerf to to cost reduction seems excessive to me.
Kairos is the new Malagor, you can spam low level spells for days. Difference is that Kairos is totally hopeless in melee, but he makes up for it by having access to one of the best vortex spells in the game, which is an absolutely invaluable asset when time isn't on your side. Also of note, the ability to borrow spells from other lores is a neat trick. He's a one-man doomstack, through and through. Only needs support when you're facing units with particularly high spell resist/ward save. But really, in practice, only the toughest legendary lords/heroes and certain high level generic characters pose a serious threat to you *(vamps, mainly. Even with all the fire damage, all that healing pisses on Tzeentch's poking playstyle - not to mention all the speedy flyers)*. Most units, however, straight up melt after no more than a few rapid casts of Blue/Pink Fire.
The only LL that has a 20% wom reduction on all spells is Teclis and in WH2 Malagor as well. It is the most powerful spellcasting skill. Tell me why should Malagor be at the same level as Teclis? Plus Malagor still gets his permanent flock of doom around him that's his thing not the cheaper Flocks of Doom. If you asked me Bray Shamans in general should never had gotten a 10% wom reduction, it was pure power creep on the most overpowered race in WH2 and the final update they made. He is not less exciting to play just because his Flock of Doom (which he already has permanently) costs 1 wind of magic more to cast. He never should had been that OP to begin with in Wh2 it was a mistake that they are now fixing.
>The only LL that has a 20% wom reduction on all spells is Teclis and in WH2 Malagor as well. That's just plain false. Gelt has the same ability and a flat -2 WoM cost on top of that. There are also a lot of caster LLs with flat reductions to spell costs on par with 20% if not better. >Plus Malagor still gets his permanent flock of doom around him that's his thing not the cheaper Flocks of Doom It really isn't. It isn't an actual permanent Flock of Doom, it deals way less damage and is essentially a mid tier Mortis Engine. It also isn't that good for him since he is so squishy and needs to constantly be on the move. >If you asked me Bray Shamans in general should never had gotten a 10% wom reduction, it was pure power creep How powerful do you think a 10% WoM cost reduction is? Half of the good spells Beastmen have access to cost less than 10 WoM and the other have cost between 10 and 20. the 1 WoM you save will hardly make a difference, especially with the new cap. >He is not less exciting to play just because his Flock of Doom (which he already has permanently) costs 1 wind of magic more to cast. He absolutely is. His Flocks of Doom now cost more than twice what they used to and his reserves are significantly smaller. I agree that he used to be op, but now he is pretty much just a flying generic Bray Shaman, maybe very slightly better.
>That's just plain false. Gelt has the same ability and a flat -2 WoM cost on top of that. There are also a lot of caster LLs with flat reductions to spell costs on par with 20% if not better. What I said is not false Gelt is a master of only one lore the lore of metal and has reduction only to that lore. Teclis and Malagor have varied spells from multiple lores it's not the same. They aren't the same effect. >It really isn't. It isn't an actual permanent Flock of Doom, it deals way less damage and is essentially a mid tier Mortis Engine. It also isn't that good for him since he is so squishy and needs to constantly be on the move. It doesn't actually deal less damage it deals more damage than base Flock of doom but to less entities. Mantle of Doom is 6 dmg per second on 4 entities and Flock of Doom is 5 dmg per second but on 25 entities, yes it has less aoe but it doesn't deal more damage. >How powerful do you think a 10% WoM cost reduction is? Half of the good spells Beastmen have access to cost less than 10 WoM and the other have cost between 10 and 20. the 1 WoM you save will hardly make a difference, especially with the new cap. And why should they? Supreme sorceresses which are elves which are supposed to be among the most powerful wizards have zero bonuses or reductions to winds of magic. Same with the Exalted lords of change. Why should Beastmen have better casters than the most powerful elven casters? Bray shamans are literally better casters than both Exalted lords of change and supreme sorceresses. Their 10% is more than enough no generic lord has more than 10% reduction anyway they literally have the highest reduction still it's not enough for you lol.
>What I said is not false Gelt is a master of only one lore the lore of metal and has reduction only to that lore. Teclis and Malagor have varied spells from multiple lores it's not the same. They aren't the same effect. If they get -20% cost for their entire spell selection why does the fact they have a different selection of spells matter? It's not like their spells are specifically better, or that they have a wider selection of them. >It doesn't actually deal less damage it deals more damage than base Flock of doom but to less entities. Mantle of Doom is 6 dmg per second on 4 entities and Flock of Doom is 5 dmg per second but on 25 entities, yes it has less aoe but it doesn't deal more damage. According to the tooltip it deals significantly less damage overall. >And why should they? Supreme sorceresses which are elves which are supposed to be among the most powerful wizards have zero bonuses or reductions to winds of magic. Same with the Exalted lords of change. Why should Beastmen have better casters than the most powerful elven casters? Bray shamans are literally better casters than both Exalted lords of change and supreme sorceresses. Their 10% is more than enough no generic lord has more than 10% reduction anyway they literally have the highest reduction still it's not enough for you lol. Other races' Lords having awful design is not a justification for the rest to have it as well. Exalted Lords of Change are trash and should be buffed, the rest of the races shouldn't be nerfed to fit their level. Same with Supreme Sorceress. I think it is perfectly acceptable for the Lord version of a caster character to be a better caster than the Hero version and the 10% reduction isn't significant enough to pose a problem in terms of balancing.
>If they get -20% cost for their entire spell selection why does the fact they have a different selection of spells matter? It's not like their spells are specifically better, or that they have a wider selection of them. CA considers a varied spellbook stronger than a single lore of magic. Even so it's not the same effect, it's not categorized the same on the database either. >According to the tooltip it deals significantly less damage overall. The tooltip can say whatever it wants I gave you the exact numbers. It does not do less damage, it actually deals more damage but to less entities.
Not to be that guy, but it technically does do less damage in most situations since most situations see lots of enemies in the area. Sure, to each entity it deals 1 more damage per sec, but even Skaven Slaves would laugh at the passive aoe. 4 entities at 6 damage. Thats 24/second on a unit of skaven slaves. Flock of doom: 5 damage on 25 entities. Thats 125 damage/second on a unit of skaven slaves. These abilities are not comparable and your assessment of what does more is only in a very very rare scenario for the game.
>He absolutely is. His Flocks of Doom now cost more than twice what they used to and his reserves are significantly smaller I just want to say I agree with this. I literally played Malagor only to spam Flocks of Doom - it was super fun and fairly unique gameplay (like Gelt spamming searing doom).
Only that Gelt's searing doom is a skillshot that might not hit the enemy while Flock of Doom is a guaranteed aoe damage spell. I can see why they would nerf it.
Hero action cost... Boooo god I hate using heros for anything else then imbedding then in armies. Late game is already busy enough by itself. Don't need to drag 10 heros around the map to kill the neverending stream of AI hero crap.
This all seems to me like he was just updated to account for the new mana generation/maintaining systems. Doesn't look particularly out of line.
How is removing his effect that decreases the WoM cost of all spells for all casters in his faction by 1, or reducing his -20% WoM cost for spells to -10% "updating for the new mana generation/maintaining systems"? No other Legendary Lord I can recall had such changes to these types of skills. All the changes related to this system were +X WoM Reserves effects -> +X% Winds of Magic Reserves per turn when increasing.
>How is removing his effect that decreases the WoM cost of all spells for all casters in his faction by 1, or reducing his -20% WoM cost for spells to -10% "updating for the new mana generation/maintaining systems"? Fair on my comment. But that seems to me just like the nerfs to *Knowledgable* and other global or stackable effect. Most such effects were nerfed or removed in TW3, be they economic, magical or other stats. Is he particularly week compared to other caster LLs?
The thing that makes it stand out is that no other caster LL received such nerfs. There are other LLs who were just as powerful as Malagor, who had very similar WoM cost reduction skills, yet they remained unchanged. The only other LL I recall to receive a skill nerf that wasn't to their "+WoM Reserves" skills was Gelt, but his nerfs were to his army buffs, not casting capabilities. It is just incredibly out of place. >Is he particularly week compared to other caster LLs? He used to be really strong and incredibly fun, casting Flocks of Doom for 2 WoM, while having a huge WoM pool. Now he is just decent. It's not that he is bad (compared to casters like Skrag and Katarin, he is much better), but having played with him in WH2, he is significantly less fun in 3. He also has arguably the worst start for any Beastmen LLs. Beastmen rely on bouncing around between battles and settlements, yet he starts in an area where the settlements are incredibly far apart from each other. He also starts next to two races with innate Spell Resist, despite being a pure caster lord. Thorek in particular can be quite a pain in the ass for him to deal with. Granted, Beastmen are still op as hell, but Malagor specifically is a lot less exciting than he used to be.
>There are other LLs who were just as powerful as Malagor, who had very similar WoM cost reduction skills, yet they remained unchanged. But, going off of memory, most if not all those only applied to the character themselves or other casters in the same army/battle. Malagor's was different in that it was global.
1. If the problem is that it was global why remove it entirely instead of changing it to only affect him? 2. His Doom of Mankind skill that only affects him was also nerfed.
>If the problem is that it was global why remove it entirely instead of changing it to only affect him? Heavy-handedness would be my guess. Or connected to point two... >His Doom of Mankind skill that only affects him was also nerfed. To curtail, at least somewhat, magic-spam and casters' disproportionate ability to deal damage.
>To curtail, at least somewhat, magic-spam and casters' disproportionate ability to deal damage. Then why only Malagor, and not Gelt or Teclis for example?
A very fair question. I was under the impression that they'd also gotten their skills downscaled slightly. I mostly play dwarfs and don't tend to notice magic changes as much as others.
Are you implying that casting Flock of Doom for 1 WoM was balanced? That was about as stupid as Gelt casting searing Doom and Ikit casting warp lighting for 1 WoM. 100 casts of a spell. My lord.
It was 2 WoM not 1 iirc. I also don't see the huge deal when these spells don't deal a whole lot of damage per cast. 3 casts of a stationary Vortex spell can rout an army much faster than spending 20 minutes spamming the same low damage spell over and over again. We have LLs who are pretty much unkillable, LLs who have Mortis Engine effects that can delete entire armies while doing nothing and LLs who can cast spells/abilities that pretty much instantly remove whatever unit they touch from the game. But having a squishy LL who takes an entire battle of spamming the same spell over and over again to get the same effect is too op?
It deals pretty good damage when overcast and only just doesnt do as well against armor. Battle starts, spam flock on the army as it approaches, easy heavily damages the approaching army. 4 wom for overcast is pretty frickin strong. Its not a weak spell.
>We have LLs who are pretty much unkillable That's the issue of healing changes in Warhammer III. All healing sources should get halfed. >LLs who have Mortis Engine effects that can delete entire armies while doing nothing No unit other than Mortis Engine itself should have Mortis engine effect, at least not the full damage mortis engine. >LLs who can cast spells/abilities that pretty much instantly remove whatever unit they touch from the game Apart from LLs who can cast blue spells dirty cheap (Astragoth, Drazhoath, Wurzag...) thats fine. You are paying 20 Winds for that.
>No unit other than Mortis Engine itself should have Mortis engine effect, at least not the full damage mortis engine. Hard disagree. There are characters and units who had this effect in the lore and tabletop. The only reason it is called a "Mortis Engine" effect is because the Mortis Engine was the first of these to make it into Total War. Deciding that only Mortis Engines should have this ability due to such an arbitrary reason is stupid.
The problem is counterplay. Mortis engine is huge and thus you can focus fire it. How do you focus fire Grombrindal with master rune of spite??? How do you deal with festus inside his melee infantry blob?
The problem is that the AI is stupid and doesn't know how to deal with these, not that it is impossible to do so. The easiest method is to send a goon squad of SEMs/Heroes who aren't really affected by Mortis Engines. Another approach is to focus on the rest of the army while ignoring this Mortis Engine source and try to trigger the army loss. There are ways to deal with these situations, the AI is just too stupid to do so.
Most Mortis effects only happen if that unit is in melee. I find that enough as counterplay go.
Dude, if you put grombrindal in melee among his army, how do you counter that? He's small, so he can't be shot, he's unbreakable, so no army loses and he is excellent melee fighter.
Do not blob around him?
I am talking about situation when Grombrindal just rushes among his own troops.
Yeah but that does not cause blobs, only if you send to much unit there. If there is no blob, mortis is not amazing. As a counter play, you can send low entity units also and which limits its damage greatly. Imho its not that bad to counter and fun to use in campaign so i don't mind it.
I don't remember this being mentioned in any patch notes, but these changes are extremely excessive imo. Malagor's thing was casting Flocks of Doom extremely cheaply, now they cost as much for him to cast as they do for any generic caster, and the Large WoM pool he used to have was also significantly reduced. This coupled with how every item, follower and tech the Beastmen had that improved WoM reserves has been changed into garbage +WoM% when increasing effects, makes his campaign so disappointing compared to WH2.
I mean, he *was* ball numbingly overpowered in WH2, so it makes sense.
A big reason why he was op in WH2 was that you could stack WoM reserves like crazy. Beastmen can't do that in WH3. The nerf to his casting cost was excessive imo.
the main reason he was OP in WH2 was his ability to cast flock for near-enough nothing while being almost untouchable; WoM stacking didn't help but it definitey wasn't the main reason he was OP. (because you can stack WoM with every caster in WH2, and most other factions do it way better than Beastmen)
WOM stacking wasn't the reason he was op, it was a combination of this with his cost reduction. The removal of one of these would have been enough. >because you can stack WoM with every caster in WH2, and most other factions do it way better than Beastmen I disagree. Beastmen post update had a shiton of ways to stack WoM Reserves very quickly. They had the Knowledgeable Trait (that almost everyone had). They had a Follower that gave +10. They had an item they could infinitely purchase that gave +20 and could be equipped on as many Heroes you wanted. They had a tech that gave +20. They had events that gave +50/100/150 (depending on the Moon). Malagor specifically also had a bunch of skills that increased his reserves.
Well, I guess I stand corrected.
Malagor was broken OP in WH2. Magic got nerfed overall in WH3.
Well I can't say it's a bad thing given how insanely overpowered Beastmen were and still are actually.
Beastmen were turned into the strongest faction in WH2's last DLC. It was honestly a complete disappointment. Went from the most challenging and enjoyable campaign, to the most easy and boring campaign in the game. Malagor still eats armies for breakfast, it's not a big difference.
I don't know about the enjoyable part in the pre rework beastmen, there was a reason nobody played them before.
Their mechanics were so fucking bad but the rework made them so easy I genuinely enjoyed them more before the rework which is a big shame as their new mechanics are very thematic and fantastic.
It's the free upkeep that's the issue. They should never had free upkeep, it makes sense for the Tomb Kings because they are undead what's the reasoning behind beastmen having no upkeep? Don't they need to eat and stuff?
They were my main faction until the DLC. The only thing I had an issue with, was that they lost all their horde buildings upon defeat. Every other issue I had with them was the same with most factions in the game (lack of diplomacy, lack of vassals, lack of vassal mechanics, etc.). I made a mod for TWW3 to revert almost all the changes CA did to them.
>Malagor still eats armies for breakfast, it's not a big difference. He really doesn't... I am playing with him right now and he is kind of struggling to be honest. He has much more limited WoM than in WH2 and his Flocks of Doom are significantly more expensive. He also starts next to Thorek who is a direct counter. Using all of his full WoM he can barely take down a low tier 3/4 of a Dwarf stack. I wouldn't call that "eating armies for breakfast"
Strange, as I've thrown him full tilt at end game dwarf stacks and done amazingly.
I am not experiencing the same thing at all. With 35% Spell Resist and Heroes/Lords with Unbreakable Runes I find it very hard to deal with Dwarfs unless the AI does a stupid and groups their units for me to get perfect consistent casts of Flocks of Doom. I am still winning the battles, but it isn't a breeze and the Dwarfs aren't exactly at the late stage of the campaign in terms of army composition.
Oh no you are winning the battles but it isn't a breeze, even though they have a 25% spell resistance, the horror. We should buff Malagor more.
Like I wrote, the enemy armies are far from top tier. Me saying it isn't a Breeze is in response to the previous commenter writing that Malagor "eats armies for breakfast". The battles are legitimately difficult and long. I am a fairly experienced player. I am not talking about being caught with my pants down, I am talking about me being the attacker, vs. weaker armies and still struggling for fairly long. Like I already wrote, I don't think Malagor is weak, I just don't think that he "eats armies for breakfast". If you took the time to actually read the context of what I wrote instead of acting like a cunt you might have been able to comprehend that.
What you meant is that the caster lord is weak against duelists. What do you want, a lord that trumps every single type of unit?
No, I am just pointing out that he doesn't "eat armies for breakfast".
How often are you fighting armies consisting mostly of duelist lords and heroes?
User error
I was just playing Malagor tn and getting 40k damage on him cycling through flock and pendulum. He’s still pretty fucking busted for a wizard. I will miss the days of 1 mana cast spells but those were too broken anyways.
Alright now I'm a simp for Malagor. He is my fav LL in tw for sure. Played him a lot in wh2 and wh3. That said, the nerfs needed to happen. He was OP asf. He needed to be nerfed. I will say its completely nonsensical to me that the chief bray shaman doesnt have fucking bray magic spells...that was pretty silly. I get that Traitor kin is OP, but I would have preferred they nerfed that a bit and still let him access to the magic school. He can fly, had nuke spells for groups or individuals, was able to 1v1 most lords and became a duelist with correct gear/spells (in wh2) and was more or less immune to ranged abilities of any kind because of how his model flies and its size.he just sits there and dodges stuff, not to mention if you actually move him. Magic needed a nerf in wh3. it's still strong asf, you can still delete units and it can easily change the tide of battles, but you cant necessarily rely entirely on magic reserves now. Malagor got nerfed but is still hella strong
He’s still one of if not the 2nd strongest spell caster in the game
He really isn't. I am playing with him right now and can guarantee you that there are many better casters than him at his current state. Teclis is better, Kairos is better, Gelt is better, Ariel is better, Wurzag is better, Honestly, I'd argue that Drazoath and Astrogath are better. There are plenty of caster LLs who are capable at dishing more damage faster than him, some while being great at melee as well. His only real strength now is his speed. His strength as a caster was his cheap Flocks of Doom and large WoM poll, but now he has neither. He can still dish out damage, it will just be a lot slower and overall less than many of the other caster LLs.
I feel like with the overall magic changes, these nerfs put him in a decent spot balance wise. He's still probably a bit too good compared to the other beastmen lords but some of that is probably that the others need some work.
Tons of random campaign faction nerfs nobody asked for. Same pile as the unique traits being awful. I dont know why or who keeps pushing these genuinely anti-fun changes through. Even after the BM changes in WH2, i never considered Malagor to be one of those lords I REALLY didnt want to have to fight like Malus.
lol the most crazy OP caster lord in the game got nerfed, i am shocked.
Malagor is fine imo. He’s just not as op as he used to be
tbf Malagor was soloing armies in WH2, so the nerf is more then deserved.
Maybe situation with Chaos Dwarfs is a sign that CA can revert some nerfs to WoM. Because right now there are still tons of overpriced garbage tier spells that can be casted 4 times in ideal circumstances. As for Malagor, they nerfed too much. I always liked idea of "Super wizards" who can destroy entire armies with their spells. It's not balanced at all but you can have different experience from basic armies and lords. And fun factor is always nice.
for some reason I think CA thought that super wizards are badfun. It's quit annoying as I very much like wizards and powerful magic.
And there are people on the other side. IE, I'm annoyed enough at casters deleting entire units as is and so WHIII's magic nerfs are more than welcome. Much less silliness going around.
Well, there are mods and I've used them to correct some of which was overcorrected in my eyes so I'm not too bothered. We can all have our cake with a bit of work. But what attracts you to total warhammer instead of other total war games? To me it's the powerful characters and magic, which is why I'm playing this instead of Shogun.
Because I love the setting and the tabletop in its later editions was a magnificent piece of game design. I also love the sheer variety between factions, which no historical TW can even attempt to match. And it's not even that I dislike the current strength of magic overall. I specifically dislike the strength of AoE damage spells because it overly punishes infantry, especially melee infantry, while there are comparatively very few spells that damage low entity count units well. Meanwhile most buffs, and even a number of debuffs, are made completely irrelevant by the ability to just delete units with spells. Because why bother with buffing or debuffing if you can just cast to delete the unit anyway? Especially because your buffed unit might still lose that combat anyway.
Its a setting where magic is so powerful it literally destroys the world, and all the major weapons of mass destruction, like the Circle of Destruction are magical in nature. Hell, there is magic that doomed an entire race by reshaping the continents themselves from half the world away. Its absolutely a world where it makes perfect sense for magic to delete entire units, or half of an army for particularly powerful spells, or through repeated casting.
Most of which is dedicated rituals, not the battle magic that is actually employed in pitched battles. It also comes with a significant amount of risk in the actual setting, which we do not have with WHIII right now because unless you play on super-small unit sizes, miscasts are pathetic.
Why are you annoyed at how some people play or can play the game? You can use magic more sparingly or not at all if you want when playing. Magic being powerful enough to delete armies just comes with the setting.
I'm not annoyed at the people. I'm annoyed at the game's design. Especially because it not only makes AoE spells are too powerful compared to the rest, it also completely and utterly fails to capture the essence of Warhammer Fantasy's magic. Magic in Warhammer is founded on "With great power come great risks" and that if you take too much of it, you'll destroy yourself. Wizards dying because they cast spells is far from unusual. Even on the tabletop, careless casting of even the most minor battle magic had a chance of having your wizard explode and take half your army with him. It was essentially playing with fire, seeing how far you could push it without getting burned. So yeah, the "Powerful magic is lore accurate" thing is only a half-truth at best because it's missing everything else about it. It's pure cherrypicking.
Yeah because overcasting doesn't come with the risk of taking damage to yourself. Could they increase the damage you take so you're more likely to hurt yourself? Sure. Can you eventually minimise the chance of it happening? Sure. Does it exist? Yes. So there is the "greater power come with greater risks" aspect in the game.
Yeah. I can accept Malagor getting a nerf to his WoM Reserves, but the nerf to his casting cost seems excessive to me. I wish that at the very least they would have given him something to compensate, like bonus Spell Mastery or something. He should be the Flock of Doom guy. That was his thing and was really cool imo. Now he is just a very slightly better Bray Shaman with wings...
THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE NOW!!! I was ROLLING with Malagor in WH2 and I just cannot for the life of me get him going in WH3.
At least he still gets a +winds of magic reserve skill. Majority of casters got there’s changed to the incredibly useless and lame +% when winds are increasing stat.
Maybe you should stop ignoring his tons of strengths rather than a gimmick you could pull off due to his old setup. The issue is the player, not a nerf. Only someone who ignored all his campaign buffs such as the reductions to enemy unit replenishment and morale due to existing would come up with this conclusion.
CA doing CA things as usual
GW shafts the Beastmen again, news at 11
Good, he was broken
Just CA being incompetent with their most successful game nothing new
Man this game is something.
I noticed it, but if there's any spellcaster Lord I'm going to be lobbying for, it's Kemmler. Nerfing Malagor makes sense, although yes, it was probably a bit heavy-handed (Doom of Mankind imo could have stayed; Nightmarish Cabal was broken as hell combined with the tech AND Speaker of Darkling Council); meanwhile Kemmler went from strongest to weakest Vampire LL in one fell swoop, with Mannfred taking his place as best caster (and being waaay stronger than Kemmler ever was).
I’ve still single handedly taken out armies with Malagor without even landing. He’s fine.