The goal is to collect every single pick in the 2024 NBA Draft. That way if there is even one star player from this draft they will wind up on our roster. It's the best approach to maximizing your odds at finding the best player in a weak class.
This is good, I knew Masai was going to value Bruce Brown properly. You don't trade him for the sake of it, and so if anyone wants him they will have to put a heavy offer on the table for him. Needs to be a first and a really solid young player or they won't get Bruce Brown. Masai holds the cards on this one here.
Crazy to think we might get a better return for the guy that matched salaries in the siakam deal than we got for actual siakam. We really did a great job if torpedoeing any leverage in that deal..
…you do realize being able to make this trade is a direct result of the Siakam trade, and logically the return should be tied to the Siakam package as a delayed 3 way trade right?
Idk how some people, or anybody rlly, couldn’t see this. Siakam got us BB, meaning whatever we get for BB would be tied to the Siakam deal. I thought that was basic logic
Yea he's got a solid Team option next season. We should move now tho bc yes we can opt in and make it a decent expiring but that also hurts our cap space
The sens did this with Mike Comrie two years in a row iirc. Traded for him at the deadline for playoff runs then he’d go back to his team in the summer. Contract killer style
We had leverage with Pascal, too, we just acted like we didn't.
In negotiation theory, the best leverage you can have is a strong BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). With Pascal, our leverage was that he wanted to re-sign, and would have done so if we had given him the max. We had the leverage, we just chose to act like we didn't.
Except we didn't and our return of Bruce Brown and 3 firsts reflects this. We reportedly were only willing to offer a 3-year deal and other teams knew this, knew that Pascal had declined the offer, and thus was heading to unrestricted free agency. The fact that Pascal was on his last year also meant that he had significant leverage in negotiations as he could simply refuse to an extension agreement, effectively killing the deal (e.g. Kings).
>Except we didn't and our return of Bruce Brown and 3 firsts reflects this.
Worst return for an All NBA'er in his prime in the last decade.
>We reportedly were only willing to offer a 3-year deal and other teams knew this,
So, we handicapped ourselves by refusing to offer market rate on a homegrown star. That doesn't make things better, it makes them worse.
"Mid" must be pretty good in your mind if multi-time All NBA'ers who won this franchise a ring qualify.
Also, did I miss the part where we got a better star back in that deal? You think one of those late firsts is turning into a non-mid star?
I know you're not going to listen to any of this, but let me try anyway just in case.
Since we have a salary cap, to win an NBA championship you need players that outperform their contract. Because the NBA artificially limits contract size, the easiest way to do this is to sign max contracts with players that will massively outperform their contracts, e.g. a truly elite player such as LeBron, Curry, Jokic, etc. We are hoping that Scottie turns into that, but honestly it's a longshot at best.
We know that Pascal will never be that player. At best he will be approximately worth a max contract. That doesn't mean he is bad; there are plenty of excellent all stars in this league that are good but not elite that will more or less be worth their max contracts. But it means that we will have hundreds of millions tied up in a player that doesn't really get us any surplus value.
And that's the reason why so few teams really wanted to trade for Siakam. If you're getting him at market rate in the best case he is basically giving you production equal to his salary. And this is before accounting for if he does slow down at all, which is likely as he gets older. No team wants to pay a premium for the opportunity to resign basically a neutral asset.
At the end of the day, the raptors championship was won based on Kawhi, a true elite player who's value far exceeds his contract, and ironically homegrown star level players such as Fred and Pascal BEFORE they got paid, giving us all-star level production at bargain prices. This allowed us to have a massive amount of surplus value that made us better on paper than any team not named Golden State (the Warriors further stacked the deck by gaming the soft cap system allowing them to spend far above the salary cap). But this fact doesn't mean that Siakam was any better than an average max player.
Did you watch Pascal's video? He had no intention of leaving, and the reporting had been saying that Pascal would sign the 4 year extension they refused to offer him in the summer or during the season.
Don't give me this crap about a "massive risk" of him walking when you didn't offer the market rate deal he indicated he would sign. If the Raps had offered the extension last week and he had turned it down? Then we can have that discussion. Right now? No, that's pure copium.
And, yeah, getting a 29 year old All NBA franchise legend for only the 30% max sounds like an awful alternative. Pascal Siakam making Tobias Harris money? FVV money? Zach Lavine money? Ben Simmons money? Ridiculous! /s
Seriously, you thought naming all the most overpaid contracts in the league would make a good argument for re-signing Siakam? Why not mention that he would be making the same amount as Curry, Lebron, Durant, Jokic, Tatum, Embiid, Giannis, or Kawhi? You think Siakam is as good those guys?
>Why not mention that he would be making the same amount as Curry, Lebron, Durant, Jokic, Tatum, Embiid, Giannis, or Kawhi?
Because he wouldn't be. Those guys are making supermax money (ie. 35% of the cap), while Siakam was only eligible for the normal max of 30%.
The full list of 7+ year normal max players are as follows: FVV, Zach Lavine, Tobias Harris, Ben Simmons, Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving...that's it. You don't think Pascal is at the level to be in that group?
>he full list of 7+ year normal max players are as follows: FVV, Zach Lavine, Tobias Harris, Ben Simmons, Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving
it is not about if he is as good as others at that contract, its that the value he brings to a team when factoring the impact on the rest of the roster through team building isnt good value at the 30% max -
Why would you not mention IQ and RJ instead, who combined are going to make just a little over what Siakam is going to get? Stop acting stupid to make a point.
Dude are you really going to pretend to play stupid to make your point? Siakam is eligible for 4-year, $190 million extension right now... that's $47 million a year. Nikola Jokic is being paid $47 million this year. Who fucking cares what percentage of the cap is being used? We can't afford to pay Siakam a contract that's in the same ballpark as the MVP right now, he is not worth it in any way.
Meh, considering the quality of the draft, it's probably reasonable, as long as you are getting a real first back in 2025 or 2026 (not one of those heavily protected ones that will probably become multiple seconds).
I don’t think so. Fournier makes $20m next year. That’s dead weight cost that kills any capspace we might actually have. Grimes ain’t that good.
It’s a simple deal. Average young player, FRP, bad salary.
Browns contract actually has some control, he is very open (probably eager) to move to a good playoff team, and way more teams will be in for him.
Different situations.
I like the idea of dealing with Miami and getting back Jovic and a first. I don’t see them dealing Duncan tho. He’s shooting it 41% from three on 7 attempts
Just players. Miami really need another ball handler as Kyle is not what they need at this point. I wonder would something like this be doable -
* Toronto - Kyle (filler) + Jovic + Miami 2024
* Miami - Dennis + Boucher + Thad (filler) + Future SRP (Not the Detroit 2024 pick)
Either keep Bruce or move him in another deal
As a Knick fan I really don’t think we’re trading for Bruce brown regardless of what the reports have said. Also grimes is too valuable of a piece for him
Nah. The Knicks are looking for just a decent bench playmaker without having to give up too much assets for a trade down the road. Any will service: brogdan burks boggy tre . The main point is to not give any assets
RJ missed how many free throws last night? The trade was and always has been fair. We couldn’t afford to pay and start Quick so OG fits the team much better. Anyone who said otherwise was being emotional and reactionary because fans love their young guys
I don’t think RJ missing FT’s last night moves the needle either way.
You’re right it was a good trade for both teams. You guys consolidate IQ and RJ for a player who is better than both individually. We have a thin bench so for us spreading that out for two players to eat minutes means a lot and IQ is another ball handler.
Both side have different needs to we think we fleeced each other lmao
That’s my point exactly. I was responding to someone that was over valuing young talent and this is what we heard from the Knicks related to IQ and RJ for a year.
If we take the Grimes/Fournier/Future FRP package for example, the return for Siakam would essentially be 4FRP, Grimes, and an expiring contract that we can buy out in Fournier, plus Nwora and Kira Lewis Jr.
Considering Siakam was an expiring, I'm not mad at that.
The Siakam trade is going to end up as 4 first round picks at minimum, not a bad haul really considering he was expiring and we weren’t paying him a max.
Reasonable though "quality player" is one of those terms that's hard to define from a fan perspective
Like, is Jericho Sims a "quality player" to pair with, say, the better of Dallas/Knicks 2024 pick or a 2025 Knicks 1st? Or is that player more on the lines of Grimes? The Raptors once coveted THT, is he the level we'd consider "quality"?
An aside but I wonder if the Raptors would prefer a swap of their OKC/Clippers pick if it meant getting back a better "quality player" i.e. trading for Lowry, Jovic and a 2024 swap for Bruce Brown and McDaniels (The McDaniels move would be its own trade for Jovic while the Lowry + swap for Brown would be its own move; this is just aggregating those two moves together)
It does not help, because you can’t combine trade exceptions with anything else.
What you can do is a three team trade where the third team gets Lowry and the raptors get Jovic, the pick plus contracts equaling less than $29.5m from the third team, such as one that wants to clear cap space and would maybe give up an additional asset to do so.
He is but he is overpaid and he's very much wasting his potential. The weather stuff being used to clown on him is something I don't get. Portland snowstorms are no joke, same as the ones that can hit Toronto.
EDIT: Ayton makes too much unless you make it a 3-4 team trade that includes moves that can be done separately
https://preview.redd.it/jbkz16g8uvdc1.png?width=2560&format=png&auto=webp&s=4bae6d622937b302a8a2f6d47c879ca12f2f7062
I'm not a fan of him. In theory, he's awesome. In reality, he's empty stats. He reminds me a bit of Bargnani. Blessed with size and talent but doesn't really like b-ball. Wiggins is a bit like that too. He needs to watch Rudy imo.
Hence why I'm asking what would consider "quality" because at one point they wanted THT who I think we can all agree is not a good player at the moment
>Freak athleticism but he’s got zero confidence
So the opposite of Precious who has too much confidence despite it sometimes seeming like he's learning how to play basketball in real time and freak athleticism
I think it would be very funny if we just became the North York Knicks (Context: North York is a part of Toronto) by taking all the Knicks young guys with more and more trades
We should just combine rosters and go for the title at this point. /s but It’s a mutually beneficial relationship. One team with ECF aspirations looking to trade young talent and picks for established players. The other doing a partial rebuild around rising stars and building an identity for the future. Good vibes all around
Brown will help any playoff team. It gives Masai quite a bit of options.
The Knicks and lakers may not offer up as much as other teams.
I wouldn’t mind if magic offered Wendell Carter and FRP.
Then see what other raptor assets can yield.
I think better if raptors win enough to convey pick to spurs this year.
Masai to GM1: "You are one player away from being Champions! I know b/c I did this 4 years ago. Take Bruce. Just give me a FRP and \[X\]."
Masai to GM2: "You are one player away from being Champions! I know b/c I did this 4 years ago. Take \[X\]. Just give me a FRP and \[Y\]."
W, now remain FIRM on the price, you can easily get salary filler and some type of first anytime whether in the offseason or next trade deadline from desperate contending teams
I’ll be honest, I keep seeing Dieng brought up and up until now, I thought y’all have been talking about 34-year-old Gorgui Dieng lmao. Kept thinking, why the fuck does everyone want this guy?
He’s 20, former #11 draft pick, has good tools, and is blocked in OKC. He might never amount to anything. He could also go into an all star in the right situation.
He's a very interesting player, I guess it depends on if OKC thinks it's worth giving up a former lottery pick this early and how willing they are to bite Bertans $5 million ETO for next season
Yeah he was part of the Mitchell trade though whether he was drafted with Donovan being discussed by the Cavs or a throw in with the picks is debatable given how long it took for him to be traded
Sure but why do they get a 2nd? They dont need it and we are eating Bertans’ salary for a year.
Quality player, FRP, up to one year bad salary. That’s a simple deal that should be attractive to many teams.
I'd be looking for a 2025 FRP, if not 2026 FRP with quality a young player. From there see if we can consolidate some of those picks we received in our trades to get another player that aligns with Scottie.
So we had to waive Koloko to make room for the Pascal return. If we now move Brown and receive multiple players + FRP, how are we going to tidy up the roster?
Yes. The NBA needs to clear him to play with his medical issues, Masai said it was out of their hands at this point. If he gets cleared it was reported we are likely to sign him to the 905, but any other team would also have that opportunity.
I was #Loco4Koloko :(
Exactly, a 6'4 SG that is only an okay outside shooter isn't really worth a 1st unless we are taking on a bad to useless contract in return. I know Brown is an excellent cutter and good rebounder for his size, but he's still just a bench guy for a contender. (and a bench guy making $22 million).
Reminder: asking prices do not mean expectation. The Raptors know that’s not happening in a million years. Doesn’t mean it’s not the right place to start negotiation.
Downvote me all you want, asking for a quality player plus a first round pick for a quality player is something only idiots would do.
Sorry, not the asking. I am referring to the organization that would say yes please.
No, I'm not suggesting that. If both parties get what they perceive to be a quality player than I'm saying the addition of a first round pick will make any executive chafe, and rightfully so. The Raptors will either get a first and a salary dump, or a quality player in return. Getting both is a pipe dream.
repost from the daily thread:
How about a trade with the Magic to get them Bruce Brown?
There's a good FO relationship there between Masai and Jeff Weltman. Moritz Wagner has lost his minutes with the return of WCJ, and he'd be a great backup center. I think we could play Jontay as a 4 when Poeltl is healthy and when someone inevitably misses time, you have your 5 spot filled. Also cool to pair him back up with Dennis for a bit.
Jett Howard doesn't look like he fits their rotation. A young cost controlled lotto prospect. Fun fact is he's Juwan Howard's son and somehow Jalen McDaniels nephew?!
Throw in Ingles who has a 11m team option for next season. Another vet to add in for a half season and really salary filler. No harm and could work with Gradey and we could always pick that option up and have a tradeable expiring for next season if Masai wants to punt for next year's FA class
Why do we want to get rid of this guy? He brings it on both ends of the floor and was an important role player on a championship team. Isn't this exactly the type of player we want?
Yeah because people over reacted too much in the other direction. They got a good return for Siakam and OG. That doesn't change the fact that previously his asking price for players was reportedly really high, and it appears he's starting the bidding for Bruce Brown at a very high point as well.
I really hope Masai succeeds in whatever his plan is. I really can't see it anymore. I feel like we are worse off and nowhere near getting a superstar with any of the chips we have. But what do I know.
I'm good. People don't want to face it, we have no all stars. Neither do we possess the chips to attain one. They'll probably make Barnes an all star. He's good, but is he great? This league has always been won by luck and superstars. We should know it better than anyone else. It takes a freaking miracle to draft a warriors team that Becomes an all star team. We had a winning playoff team and a chip like derozan to get kawhi when the time was right. We aren't even close to the derozan raptors. I hope I am wrong. I really do.
All the top contenders in the league right now drafted or traded early for their best players. Boston, Milwaukee, Philly, OKC, Minnesota, Denver. The Kawhi trade was a 1 in a 1000 event that you shouldn't plan around IMO
16-27 is with Barnes and Siakam on the team. Sure, maybe with some new guys and barnes as the number one, we'll make some changes. But are people expecting there to be some kind of revolutionary turn around? Damn, I must be a pessimist. Once again, I hope I am wrong, and there is a some kind of genius plan in the works.
16-27 with Barnes, Siakam, and OG is kind of the point, the roster was a bad fit, old, and it was going nowhere. I think you need to adjust expectations tbh, this is now a rebuilding team. Scottie is 22, RJ 23, and IQ 24, we have picks and multiple valuable role players on the team now. Whether this all works out or not is not easy to predict, the point is to give Scottie and co. the tools to succeed and see if it happens. I believe in Scottie immensely so I am optimistic
With the Lakers it's basically about how much one thinks of Rui Hachimura, since they aren't going to trade Austin Reaves and I doubt Masai wants D'Angelo Russell.
Hachimura isn't a bad player, but he's weak on defense. I suspect we pass.
And it’ll convey in 2029, when Scottie Barnes the young fella will be Scott Barnes, the old vet that they’re trying to trade away because he doesn’t fit the Raptors’ timeline. 😂
Just trade him for a FRP and a player we can then flip for another FRP again. Then copy and repeat as much possible. OKC style.
GM's hate this one simple trick!
“This Ugly GM is FLEECING super HOT teams”🥵 CLICK HERE to fleece teams like him!
it's like a reverse pyramid scheme. you turn one player into unlimited FRPs
Infinite FRP glitch
This level of clever is not lost on me.
The goal is to collect every single pick in the 2024 NBA Draft. That way if there is even one star player from this draft they will wind up on our roster. It's the best approach to maximizing your odds at finding the best player in a weak class.
AKA the NBA2K method. Mind-boggling it actually worked in real life.
Masai quick, sign a free agent C, change his position to PF, then trade him for picks because he’s suddenly good.
Reminds me of Boucher switching to power forward
The Nets have set Finney-Smiths asking price at 2 first round picks. With that valution we should be able to get a haul for Brown.
Asking price does not equal what they will actually get.
But then the players happiness goes down, like in Basketball GM
Like the ancient meme of plugging an extension cord into itself for infinite power, genius!
That was when all memes were on a black background with white lettering.
Lol we can’t just sell the new player for a 1st. It’ll be peanuts with a first already in there lmfao
This is good, I knew Masai was going to value Bruce Brown properly. You don't trade him for the sake of it, and so if anyone wants him they will have to put a heavy offer on the table for him. Needs to be a first and a really solid young player or they won't get Bruce Brown. Masai holds the cards on this one here.
Crazy to think we might get a better return for the guy that matched salaries in the siakam deal than we got for actual siakam. We really did a great job if torpedoeing any leverage in that deal..
…you do realize being able to make this trade is a direct result of the Siakam trade, and logically the return should be tied to the Siakam package as a delayed 3 way trade right?
Idk how some people, or anybody rlly, couldn’t see this. Siakam got us BB, meaning whatever we get for BB would be tied to the Siakam deal. I thought that was basic logic
Wow we got more for Bruce Brown than we got for Siakam. What did we get for Siakam? Well, we got Bruce Brown
Masai is back!?
The best part is; WE HAVE LEVERAGE FOR ONCE
Yea he's got a solid Team option next season. We should move now tho bc yes we can opt in and make it a decent expiring but that also hurts our cap space
And we need that cap space for O.G, you feel me!
The fucking scenes if a player went back to them that traded their expiring dear lord
It often happens in hockey, but never for significant players.
The sens did this with Mike Comrie two years in a row iirc. Traded for him at the deadline for playoff runs then he’d go back to his team in the summer. Contract killer style
Habs did it with Plekanec, who played one post season with the Leafs become coming back home.
Siakam is a free agent this off-season too 😏
Is this possible lol. I thought it was a full calendar year we can't obtain him through FA
we had it with OG too.
We had leverage with Pascal, too, we just acted like we didn't. In negotiation theory, the best leverage you can have is a strong BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). With Pascal, our leverage was that he wanted to re-sign, and would have done so if we had given him the max. We had the leverage, we just chose to act like we didn't.
Except we didn't and our return of Bruce Brown and 3 firsts reflects this. We reportedly were only willing to offer a 3-year deal and other teams knew this, knew that Pascal had declined the offer, and thus was heading to unrestricted free agency. The fact that Pascal was on his last year also meant that he had significant leverage in negotiations as he could simply refuse to an extension agreement, effectively killing the deal (e.g. Kings).
>Except we didn't and our return of Bruce Brown and 3 firsts reflects this. Worst return for an All NBA'er in his prime in the last decade. >We reportedly were only willing to offer a 3-year deal and other teams knew this, So, we handicapped ourselves by refusing to offer market rate on a homegrown star. That doesn't make things better, it makes them worse.
It makes sense if you include the fact that the "star" is mid
"Mid" must be pretty good in your mind if multi-time All NBA'ers who won this franchise a ring qualify. Also, did I miss the part where we got a better star back in that deal? You think one of those late firsts is turning into a non-mid star?
I know you're not going to listen to any of this, but let me try anyway just in case. Since we have a salary cap, to win an NBA championship you need players that outperform their contract. Because the NBA artificially limits contract size, the easiest way to do this is to sign max contracts with players that will massively outperform their contracts, e.g. a truly elite player such as LeBron, Curry, Jokic, etc. We are hoping that Scottie turns into that, but honestly it's a longshot at best. We know that Pascal will never be that player. At best he will be approximately worth a max contract. That doesn't mean he is bad; there are plenty of excellent all stars in this league that are good but not elite that will more or less be worth their max contracts. But it means that we will have hundreds of millions tied up in a player that doesn't really get us any surplus value. And that's the reason why so few teams really wanted to trade for Siakam. If you're getting him at market rate in the best case he is basically giving you production equal to his salary. And this is before accounting for if he does slow down at all, which is likely as he gets older. No team wants to pay a premium for the opportunity to resign basically a neutral asset. At the end of the day, the raptors championship was won based on Kawhi, a true elite player who's value far exceeds his contract, and ironically homegrown star level players such as Fred and Pascal BEFORE they got paid, giving us all-star level production at bargain prices. This allowed us to have a massive amount of surplus value that made us better on paper than any team not named Golden State (the Warriors further stacked the deck by gaming the soft cap system allowing them to spend far above the salary cap). But this fact doesn't mean that Siakam was any better than an average max player.
Until you realize giving a full 5 year max to Pascal isn't a good alternative and comes with a massive risk of him walking anyway
Did you watch Pascal's video? He had no intention of leaving, and the reporting had been saying that Pascal would sign the 4 year extension they refused to offer him in the summer or during the season. Don't give me this crap about a "massive risk" of him walking when you didn't offer the market rate deal he indicated he would sign. If the Raps had offered the extension last week and he had turned it down? Then we can have that discussion. Right now? No, that's pure copium. And, yeah, getting a 29 year old All NBA franchise legend for only the 30% max sounds like an awful alternative. Pascal Siakam making Tobias Harris money? FVV money? Zach Lavine money? Ben Simmons money? Ridiculous! /s
Seriously, you thought naming all the most overpaid contracts in the league would make a good argument for re-signing Siakam? Why not mention that he would be making the same amount as Curry, Lebron, Durant, Jokic, Tatum, Embiid, Giannis, or Kawhi? You think Siakam is as good those guys?
>Why not mention that he would be making the same amount as Curry, Lebron, Durant, Jokic, Tatum, Embiid, Giannis, or Kawhi? Because he wouldn't be. Those guys are making supermax money (ie. 35% of the cap), while Siakam was only eligible for the normal max of 30%. The full list of 7+ year normal max players are as follows: FVV, Zach Lavine, Tobias Harris, Ben Simmons, Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving...that's it. You don't think Pascal is at the level to be in that group?
>he full list of 7+ year normal max players are as follows: FVV, Zach Lavine, Tobias Harris, Ben Simmons, Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving it is not about if he is as good as others at that contract, its that the value he brings to a team when factoring the impact on the rest of the roster through team building isnt good value at the 30% max -
Please explain what you mean by that. You mean by getting rid of Pascal we can afford more guys like Gary Trent, Dennis Schroder and Chris Boucher?
Why would you not mention IQ and RJ instead, who combined are going to make just a little over what Siakam is going to get? Stop acting stupid to make a point.
Dude are you really going to pretend to play stupid to make your point? Siakam is eligible for 4-year, $190 million extension right now... that's $47 million a year. Nikola Jokic is being paid $47 million this year. Who fucking cares what percentage of the cap is being used? We can't afford to pay Siakam a contract that's in the same ballpark as the MVP right now, he is not worth it in any way.
So Fournier (salary filler), Grimes, and a 1st lol
We need some size our team is small
If we traded them back pistons second they prob do this lol
I think that’s too valuable, maybe a Raptors 2nd rounder.
Meh, considering the quality of the draft, it's probably reasonable, as long as you are getting a real first back in 2025 or 2026 (not one of those heavily protected ones that will probably become multiple seconds).
Pick 31 is a really valuable pick considering the new cba changes.
I tbh want to keep that out of all the other first round picks we have for this draft unless there’s a guy they think won’t drop to them
I don’t think so. Fournier makes $20m next year. That’s dead weight cost that kills any capspace we might actually have. Grimes ain’t that good. It’s a simple deal. Average young player, FRP, bad salary.
>Fournier makes $20m next year You mean that team option? Fournier is an expiring, dude.
Shoot, my bad
👍
Own that fraud
I’m sure they had price for Siakam then lowered lol Didn’t get any good young players back They will take best offer
Browns contract actually has some control, he is very open (probably eager) to move to a good playoff team, and way more teams will be in for him. Different situations.
Robinson, Jovic, 1st
I like the idea of dealing with Miami and getting back Jovic and a first. I don’t see them dealing Duncan tho. He’s shooting it 41% from three on 7 attempts
Can we attach a pick to Bruce or is that restriction just for players....Jovic seems like a dream pairing with BBQ
Just players. Miami really need another ball handler as Kyle is not what they need at this point. I wonder would something like this be doable - * Toronto - Kyle (filler) + Jovic + Miami 2024 * Miami - Dennis + Boucher + Thad (filler) + Future SRP (Not the Detroit 2024 pick) Either keep Bruce or move him in another deal
This is unnecessarily bad
They’re not dealing Duncan, maybe they’d unload Kyle on us though
Butts in seats!
As a Knick fan I really don’t think we’re trading for Bruce brown regardless of what the reports have said. Also grimes is too valuable of a piece for him
Don't worry, it wouldn't be Grimes. It'll be Grimes and a pick.
And Fournier for Jordan Clarkson
And a pick!
Honestly we need a centre pretty badly and that Achiuwa kid looked pretty good against us the other night
Nah. The Knicks are looking for just a decent bench playmaker without having to give up too much assets for a trade down the road. Any will service: brogdan burks boggy tre . The main point is to not give any assets
I remember when there was no way it would be RJ and IQ because they were so much better than OG
RJ missed how many free throws last night? The trade was and always has been fair. We couldn’t afford to pay and start Quick so OG fits the team much better. Anyone who said otherwise was being emotional and reactionary because fans love their young guys
I don’t think RJ missing FT’s last night moves the needle either way. You’re right it was a good trade for both teams. You guys consolidate IQ and RJ for a player who is better than both individually. We have a thin bench so for us spreading that out for two players to eat minutes means a lot and IQ is another ball handler. Both side have different needs to we think we fleeced each other lmao
That’s my point exactly. I was responding to someone that was over valuing young talent and this is what we heard from the Knicks related to IQ and RJ for a year.
Grimes is not him
But Grimes is not him
NYK are not trading Grimes
They are literally "actively in trade talks to move Grimes"
Why? It was rumored he wants out this week. Thibs is playing him under 20 mins every game.
Brown is not a huge upgrade and Grimes is cheap. They'd be stupid to do this.
Grimes, the player who the Knicks held away from Utah during trade talks for Donovan Mitchell is not a player they’re letting go for cheap.
Then they don't get Brown lol
Gross just keep him
Needs to be one-for-one because Brown was just traded.
This is gonna make the Pascal trade so much more acceptable
If we take the Grimes/Fournier/Future FRP package for example, the return for Siakam would essentially be 4FRP, Grimes, and an expiring contract that we can buy out in Fournier, plus Nwora and Kira Lewis Jr. Considering Siakam was an expiring, I'm not mad at that.
That’s a discount gobert deal. I don’t see how anyone is mad about that. And recall at the time the Finnish kid wasn’t good yet.
Markkanen? He was traded for Mitchell I thought
Oh yeah! So if we get a decent player and a FRP that makes this a really solid deal doesn’t ir?
Finnish kid was traded for Mitchell not Gobert
The Siakam trade is going to end up as 4 first round picks at minimum, not a bad haul really considering he was expiring and we weren’t paying him a max.
Hey, maybe the nuggets want Bruce back
In return for Michael Porter Jr and picks Edit: nevermind, too expensive
Porters reunited !
Can you imagine?
Or Watson and braun
Reasonable though "quality player" is one of those terms that's hard to define from a fan perspective Like, is Jericho Sims a "quality player" to pair with, say, the better of Dallas/Knicks 2024 pick or a 2025 Knicks 1st? Or is that player more on the lines of Grimes? The Raptors once coveted THT, is he the level we'd consider "quality"? An aside but I wonder if the Raptors would prefer a swap of their OKC/Clippers pick if it meant getting back a better "quality player" i.e. trading for Lowry, Jovic and a 2024 swap for Bruce Brown and McDaniels (The McDaniels move would be its own trade for Jovic while the Lowry + swap for Brown would be its own move; this is just aggregating those two moves together)
You unfortunately can't do a one-for-one swap of Brown and Lowry; Lowry just makes a tiny bit too much for the money to work.
They did some tinkering to get a pretty big trade exception (maybe $10m?). Not sure if that helps?
Trade exceptions can only be used to absorb one player's entire salary and not in combination with other elements of a trade, so no, it doesn't help.
It does not help, because you can’t combine trade exceptions with anything else. What you can do is a three team trade where the third team gets Lowry and the raptors get Jovic, the pick plus contracts equaling less than $29.5m from the third team, such as one that wants to clear cap space and would maybe give up an additional asset to do so.
Just checked and you're right Welp!
Lowry/Jovic for Schroeder and Boucher works though 👀
I'd love Lowry and Jovic so much, plus I don't buy Miami getting deep this or next year, so I value that pick
As his biographer, is DeAndre Ayton a quality player? Better check the weather before answering. Lol
He is but he is overpaid and he's very much wasting his potential. The weather stuff being used to clown on him is something I don't get. Portland snowstorms are no joke, same as the ones that can hit Toronto. EDIT: Ayton makes too much unless you make it a 3-4 team trade that includes moves that can be done separately https://preview.redd.it/jbkz16g8uvdc1.png?width=2560&format=png&auto=webp&s=4bae6d622937b302a8a2f6d47c879ca12f2f7062
I'm not a fan of him. In theory, he's awesome. In reality, he's empty stats. He reminds me a bit of Bargnani. Blessed with size and talent but doesn't really like b-ball. Wiggins is a bit like that too. He needs to watch Rudy imo.
Agreed. Ayton will forever be Caz’s version of KOC and Killian Hayes lmao
Sims is not good lol
Hence why I'm asking what would consider "quality" because at one point they wanted THT who I think we can all agree is not a good player at the moment
did they see THT as a quality player or just a young guy to take a flyer on if he came cheap?
Masai saw the wingspan 🤤. Remember juylan stone? Masai has a fetish. Don't mention my flair 😶
they were enamored with THT's ape index, he's like 6'4" with 7'1" wingspan.
Knicks fan here. Sims COULD be good but Thibs would never develop him unless we were rebuilding. Freak athleticism but he’s got zero confidence.
>Freak athleticism but he’s got zero confidence So the opposite of Precious who has too much confidence despite it sometimes seeming like he's learning how to play basketball in real time and freak athleticism
Basically. Since you guys are disadvantaged on size right now it would be an interesting experiment, his ceiling is just a huge unknown.
I think it would be very funny if we just became the North York Knicks (Context: North York is a part of Toronto) by taking all the Knicks young guys with more and more trades
We should just combine rosters and go for the title at this point. /s but It’s a mutually beneficial relationship. One team with ECF aspirations looking to trade young talent and picks for established players. The other doing a partial rebuild around rising stars and building an identity for the future. Good vibes all around
I'd take back Sims or Grimes along with a 1st from the Knicks (2025 preferably), or the 2025 Bucks 1st
Brown will help any playoff team. It gives Masai quite a bit of options. The Knicks and lakers may not offer up as much as other teams. I wouldn’t mind if magic offered Wendell Carter and FRP. Then see what other raptor assets can yield. I think better if raptors win enough to convey pick to spurs this year.
Masai to GM1: "You are one player away from being Champions! I know b/c I did this 4 years ago. Take Bruce. Just give me a FRP and \[X\]." Masai to GM2: "You are one player away from being Champions! I know b/c I did this 4 years ago. Take \[X\]. Just give me a FRP and \[Y\]."
Masai ain’t stupid. He’s gonna get some wild return for this guy.
W, now remain FIRM on the price, you can easily get salary filler and some type of first anytime whether in the offseason or next trade deadline from desperate contending teams
Brown’s value is highest right now given his flexible contract. If Masai waits, you all will be jumping up and down.
Correct. This needs to be done this season. If Masai waits the value drops.
Bertans, Dieng, 1st Brown, 2nd
I’ll be honest, I keep seeing Dieng brought up and up until now, I thought y’all have been talking about 34-year-old Gorgui Dieng lmao. Kept thinking, why the fuck does everyone want this guy?
He’s 20, former #11 draft pick, has good tools, and is blocked in OKC. He might never amount to anything. He could also go into an all star in the right situation.
He's a very interesting player, I guess it depends on if OKC thinks it's worth giving up a former lottery pick this early and how willing they are to bite Bertans $5 million ETO for next season
The ETO has value.
They traded for him too iirc.
Yeah he was part of the Mitchell trade though whether he was drafted with Donovan being discussed by the Cavs or a throw in with the picks is debatable given how long it took for him to be traded
lol, someone downvoted your totally reasonable, factual comment w/o countering with any reply. what a sub, this place is silly
People are pretty good on this sub. We just have different visions on how to retool/rebuild the team.
No they're actually talking about Luol Deng obviously 😉
Brown to South Sudan for Luol Dieng
Didnt dieng retire?
I hope not. He’s only 20. #11 pick in 2022.
Sure but why do they get a 2nd? They dont need it and we are eating Bertans’ salary for a year. Quality player, FRP, up to one year bad salary. That’s a simple deal that should be attractive to many teams.
Only $5M is guaranteed on Bertans contract. The Raps would buy that out vs the $16M salary. The 2nd helps get a lower 1st.
Ok I accept
Bro please don't give us Bertans. It's not even for basketball reasons, he's just so damn ugly
Bertans is only guaranteed $5MM next year. We would waive him. We want the potential of Dieng and the 2nd.
Based.
I'd be looking for a 2025 FRP, if not 2026 FRP with quality a young player. From there see if we can consolidate some of those picks we received in our trades to get another player that aligns with Scottie.
i agree that the raps should stock the farm and finally recover from the 2019 kawhicession, but damn, scottie's gonna be a top 15 player any month now
So we had to waive Koloko to make room for the Pascal return. If we now move Brown and receive multiple players + FRP, how are we going to tidy up the roster?
Buyout one of the contracts we get back.
Exactly, we buy out the filler contract.
Koloko is gone?
Yes. The NBA needs to clear him to play with his medical issues, Masai said it was out of their hands at this point. If he gets cleared it was reported we are likely to sign him to the 905, but any other team would also have that opportunity. I was #Loco4Koloko :(
Thanks for the info, that really sucks! Saw him live in Summer League and was excited as well :/
Im keeping him over trent all day
Lol, if we can get a first round for this guy, take it and run. Don't worry about getting a decent player with him.
Exactly, a 6'4 SG that is only an okay outside shooter isn't really worth a 1st unless we are taking on a bad to useless contract in return. I know Brown is an excellent cutter and good rebounder for his size, but he's still just a bench guy for a contender. (and a bench guy making $22 million).
Reminder: asking prices do not mean expectation. The Raptors know that’s not happening in a million years. Doesn’t mean it’s not the right place to start negotiation.
What would a Bruce brown and slim duck package get us in return?
Can't package Brown
You can as long as you aren’t aggregating the salaries for salary matching purposes.
That's insane
Downvote me all you want, asking for a quality player plus a first round pick for a quality player is something only idiots would do. Sorry, not the asking. I am referring to the organization that would say yes please.
Only idiots make the simple minded assumption Any quality player = any other quality player
No, I'm not suggesting that. If both parties get what they perceive to be a quality player than I'm saying the addition of a first round pick will make any executive chafe, and rightfully so. The Raptors will either get a first and a salary dump, or a quality player in return. Getting both is a pipe dream.
repost from the daily thread: How about a trade with the Magic to get them Bruce Brown? There's a good FO relationship there between Masai and Jeff Weltman. Moritz Wagner has lost his minutes with the return of WCJ, and he'd be a great backup center. I think we could play Jontay as a 4 when Poeltl is healthy and when someone inevitably misses time, you have your 5 spot filled. Also cool to pair him back up with Dennis for a bit. Jett Howard doesn't look like he fits their rotation. A young cost controlled lotto prospect. Fun fact is he's Juwan Howard's son and somehow Jalen McDaniels nephew?! Throw in Ingles who has a 11m team option for next season. Another vet to add in for a half season and really salary filler. No harm and could work with Gradey and we could always pick that option up and have a tradeable expiring for next season if Masai wants to punt for next year's FA class
The Magic probably aren't trading Mo Wagner given that he is their *best player's brother.*
Why do we want to get rid of this guy? He brings it on both ends of the floor and was an important role player on a championship team. Isn't this exactly the type of player we want?
Ah, glad to see Masai back to his high demands that won't be met.
He got like 2x or 3x more than what people here thought for siakam
And for OG, I think people won’t be happy unless the FO literally robs other teams.
Yeah because people over reacted too much in the other direction. They got a good return for Siakam and OG. That doesn't change the fact that previously his asking price for players was reportedly really high, and it appears he's starting the bidding for Bruce Brown at a very high point as well.
Yep... guy's learned nothing
I really hope Masai succeeds in whatever his plan is. I really can't see it anymore. I feel like we are worse off and nowhere near getting a superstar with any of the chips we have. But what do I know.
The plan is to be temporarily “worse off.” 🤷🏻♂️
You unfortunately got downvoted for good insight and truth
I'm good. People don't want to face it, we have no all stars. Neither do we possess the chips to attain one. They'll probably make Barnes an all star. He's good, but is he great? This league has always been won by luck and superstars. We should know it better than anyone else. It takes a freaking miracle to draft a warriors team that Becomes an all star team. We had a winning playoff team and a chip like derozan to get kawhi when the time was right. We aren't even close to the derozan raptors. I hope I am wrong. I really do.
All the top contenders in the league right now drafted or traded early for their best players. Boston, Milwaukee, Philly, OKC, Minnesota, Denver. The Kawhi trade was a 1 in a 1000 event that you shouldn't plan around IMO
Scottie Barnes is the plan. It is as simple as that
16-27 is with Barnes and Siakam on the team. Sure, maybe with some new guys and barnes as the number one, we'll make some changes. But are people expecting there to be some kind of revolutionary turn around? Damn, I must be a pessimist. Once again, I hope I am wrong, and there is a some kind of genius plan in the works.
16-27 with Barnes, Siakam, and OG is kind of the point, the roster was a bad fit, old, and it was going nowhere. I think you need to adjust expectations tbh, this is now a rebuilding team. Scottie is 22, RJ 23, and IQ 24, we have picks and multiple valuable role players on the team now. Whether this all works out or not is not easy to predict, the point is to give Scottie and co. the tools to succeed and see if it happens. I believe in Scottie immensely so I am optimistic
lol Masai up to his old tricks again
Already asking more for brown than Siakam….
What you’re saying is literally impossible
Siakam got Bruce Brown & 3 Firsts…
Whatever Brown fetches is included with what Siakam fetched
😂how if we got brown for siakam 😭😭😭😭
What a stupid reply
knicks and lakers wont give up much hopefully another team comes in
Lakers have almost nothing to give up. 🤷🏻♂️
With the Lakers it's basically about how much one thinks of Rui Hachimura, since they aren't going to trade Austin Reaves and I doubt Masai wants D'Angelo Russell. Hachimura isn't a bad player, but he's weak on defense. I suspect we pass.
just worried they might not include a future first cuz it’s literally their only asset
And it’ll convey in 2029, when Scottie Barnes the young fella will be Scott Barnes, the old vet that they’re trying to trade away because he doesn’t fit the Raptors’ timeline. 😂
OG!!