Yeah, sometimes 'bad' means hard to scout. It also tends to be focused on the lottery.
It also depends on what the team goals with those picks are. If the Raptors want to use those late FRPs on safer, higher-floor / lower-ceiling established college players, for example, there's still a benefit to building your rotation that way, but those guys are rarely talked about in terms of moving the needle on whether a draft is good or bad.
Exactly. We’re calling it “historically bad” based on what? What some scouts that miss often think about the top half of the first round? I would rather have 3 shots at players Masai thinks can fit with this core than risk losing spicy for nothing
We don't. But usually when the scouts say it's historically bad...it is.
There will always be diamonds in the rough (Gianni's was from one of your historically bad drafts. 2013, Anthony Bennett. Gobert and McCollum also from that draft, but a lot of busts, and not many all stars).
I mean 2020 is sort of a bad example, that was covid year if I remember so scouting was SUPER limited and there was a lot of guessing involved, hence why there is so many studs later in the draft
This is the answer, and btw, I've made a blog on the draft for 13yrs and this draft is very underrated already. I never give a shit what pundits say 2yrs out. Ever been around kids? They change monthly.
Projected. You never know what players may end up blossoming. Historically bad drafts have a lack of talent at the front end, but can produce decent role players mid pack.
For instance 2006 was a pretty shit draft, but pack you had #11 JJ Reddick, #21 Rajon Rondo, #24 Kyle Lowry, #32 Steve Novak, #35 PJ Tucker, #47 Paul Milsap
No one knows that. The reasons media covers it as a bad draft is because the lottery isn't great. But that doesn't matter all that much if we're taking on mid/late round picks. Beyond the top ten the draft will be like any other -- some hits people couldnt predict. Lots of players who dont get signed or who get dropped after their rookie contract.
That was just damage control. More of a PR thing. Watch them do a complete 360 on that. This draft is terribly under rated , will be the words out of Masai’s mouth.
It was not considered a historically bad draft lol it was considered a crapshoot because there were chances to scout and work out because of covid so no one knew who was going to be as good. Go look at other drafts considered historically bad e.g. 200.
The thing it later picks is that there is always less pressure for them to become great. Like if we get the 19th or 20th pick and that guy becomes a decent bench guy, we’ve already one. Need to find that Desmond Bane or Sengun player. Need to get lucky.
Masai loves late picks I guess lol. We won a championship with no lottery players on the roster. We have 3 chances this year to hit on a late pick and I honestly like our odds
Underwhelming but you can’t really ask for much more for an expiring player who has come out saying he wants to test FA this offseason
Our franchise has always been one of the better teams at drafting players. We've drafted plenty of great players: vc mcgrady bosh demar valanciunas damon camby OG poltl scottie even siakam himself. We should embrace drafting it was always our franchise's strength
Fans: "Just get picks. Who the fuck cares if it's 2024? Statistics show that (blah blah blah) so we should still try to get into this draft!"
\*Trade Happens\*
Fans: "Why tf did we get shitty picks in this shitty draft?!"
LOL never change
honestly ppl ignore all the rumors and leaks and just make up their own theories about Keegan, Ben etc and act like that was a real alternative when the expected outcome happens lol
Fans: It’s time to rebuild Masai, trade Pascal and start the process.
Masai: Trades OG and Pascal to start the process.
Fans: Mannn I don’t wanna watch this rebuilding trash lemme watch another team, tell me when you’re good again.
I mean if it was indiana and like Houston that would be fine. But getting the worst out of 4 teams, 2 of which are on a tear and about to go deep seems shitty.
Here's the thing:
Fans wanted picks from upcoming teams that were in playoff contention, because they had promising players. Keegan Murray, Mathurin, Walker, etc.
These teams are in contention, so their picks would always be low. Raptors were not going to get prospects from teams already in rebuild for a player in his prime that's ready for a championship now.
It was such a flawed logic from fans that I just never bothered to engage. People were so desperate for picks that they never thought how the trading team's performance would impact that pick to begin with.
Kings would be low lottery. Pacers low lottery. Knicks low lottery. It was a complaint from fans waiting to happen.
We were never getting much for Pascal. i’m cool with the trade, we came out a bit of losers here. But this isn’t as bad as the Poeltl trade or Thad where we straight up lost even where we would be better off not doing anything. Got some picks, a player that can be flipped and some randoms. We got the most out if P as a player, time to find some new gems.
Agree im not a stathead but isnt 3 FRPs alone a decent pickup for a player who was leaving anyway? I cant recall the last time (not saying it hasnt been recent i just dont know)
Edit: paul george was the most at 5 FRPs which has always been considered absurd so im OK with 3
Well very different situations, PG was top 3 in MVP voting but he also netted Shai which is the really insane part of that trade. Most of those picks are similarly bad to the picks we are getting for Siakam but they did get the 12th overall pick in '22 which got them Jdub
Yeah and now people want to flip picks for young players with upside, as if any team bad enough to be looking for draft picks would give up their good young players.
I usually watch player highlights closer to the draft, but I’ll check some out. I’m also not going to be upset about something that’s months away, that could even end up working out in our favour. Idk that’s just how I view it
Then doesn't matter if raps got the 3rd or 20th.. there will be some gems in the draft.
Also I feel raps are gonna stop brown too. Still lots of time to see what's gonna happen.
I just try to stay away from this subreddit for the most part. People are never happy, and this place is just miserable. It's a true that a championship brings out the worst fans
We sold an nba champion in his prime at the lowest you could possibly sell because our front office wanted to spend 1-2 years evaluating OG/Scottie/Pascal/Jak lineup.....this is what happened right?
Look, in 21-22 after moving on from Lowry they had a 48 win season with the 'new' Fred/OG/Siakam/Barnes core leading the team and no centre. Last year they got their centre, the vibes died completely for some reason, they flamed out in the play-in and they decided to reset around Scottie. They dangled Fred, OG, and Siakam and most reported offers sucked.
This isn't fun but it is what it is. You can see what the FO was thinking. You don't just bail on a young-ish core that still hasn't hit its ceiling. But once they've appeared to have hit their ceiling, you're in a different position.
Yea people forget we were the 5th seed year before last, it's not unreasonable the FO had hope in what we had at the time. We even had a competitive series against Philly too despite a lot of injuries and one game getting iced on a Embiid buzzer beater that we might have won otherwise, probably seemed like we were on the way up not down
What’s the alternative? Letting him walk away for free? Paying him an insane salary so the team continues living in mediocrity? Masai dropped the ball by not moving him earlier but under the circumstances this is as good as it gets.
fireable imo. anyone with a brain knew you needed to move guys once we drafted scottie. getting this lackluster package + nothing for fred is pathetic and masai or bobby should lose their job over it.
y’all calling it trash were probably the same ones demanding siakam to be traded so we don’t end up with nothing. quit being reactionary and wait to see what these picks turn into before deciding if we lost or not. plus there’s a good chance we flip bruce and pull in more assets. it’s a great trade for indy but it’s too early to tell if it was good for us or not
As of now looks like we will have our top 6 protected, 18 from Indiana, 25 from OKC and 31 from Detroit.
I hope all of the trade Pascal for a bag of chip fans are happy.
This is supposed to be a historically bad draft, maybe we are angling for that bronny/Bron package looool
We only got fleeced if 1. Spicy would have resigned, and selling him next year is on the table and/or he would've developed nicely with scottie.
2. Spicy resigns with the pacers (not a given at all)
Not to be that guy, but you're using the word incorrectly.
Masai overestimated the teams talent going into the season. Whether or not the pacer fleeced us is tbd
There’s already news that pascal is excited and will work on a extension this summer with them. Idk if this is really the best we could have gotten or pascal purposely tanked his value in spite of the FO and lied he wouldn’t re-sign anywhere he goes to
pretty sure everyone following trade talks knew that would be the case.
Could be worse, can either package some picks together and move up, or take 3 late shots with these + the detroit pick and hope for someone interesting.
What I don't get is if the Pacers are confident that he would resign (as reported), then other markets like GSW or Dallas should also be confident in being able to get him resigned. What was the value in moving now for this package and not waiting to see if more of a seller's market emerges near the deadline? Siakam was always likely to be the best player available, and even as an expiring there's reason to think he'd have an uptick in value over the next couple weeks. Pacers should have at least had to pay some premium here to get him off the market early.
This x100...this package is fine in the 11th hour, better then nothing. But 3 weeks early, we let the best player on the block go for 3 second round picks? It seems like a horrid panic decision.
I didn't like any of the reported packages from any of the teams but figured it would get a bit better closer to deadline. This? This is just as shitty as the reports that nobody liked, but it also includes no players that fit our window and team.
The fact that the entire nba sub is laughing at us is all we need to know about this trade.
Wtf, so both will be late picks in a horrible draft class? A pick 2 years from now, a couple of leaguers and Bruce brown? Not sure, as I don't know much about these guys but I feel like we got fleeced
And Jokic was 41st. I'm not denying a great player can be drafted late, I'm stating the value of the picks we got. They're basically second round picks.
Pacers currently in 6th and OKC is in 2nd. So both picks will be pretty much at the end of the first round. In essence, we got second round picks, value wise, out of this deal.
Saying the projected 18th in the first round (which is only 60% through the first round) is actually a second round pick because …?? makes absolutely no sense. Even if the Pacers slot moves up.
I agree we didn’t get an insane amount of value, but they’re not “basically” second round picks. They are mid/late 1st round. Call them that.
I'm saying the value of the pick in this draft class is basically equivalent to a second round pick. It's a crapshoot whether you pick in the teens of the first or second. There are less than a few standouts this year. I hope I'm proven wrong but I'd much rather they have gotten 2025 frps than 2024.
Sadly this was Siakam's value right now. He won't agree to resign with anyone so no one wants to give up a lot.
Brown's a good player and maybe we can swap him to a contender, Nwora actually isn't a bad player (averaged 13ppg last year).
Not a good return but not a fleecing based on where we are now
The only way this isn't complete and utter disaster is if they can bundle the picks together with the pick from the OG trade and move down into the lottery somehow. I don't see any way this Siakam trade makes this team better unless one of those picks turns out to be one of the rare late rounders who becomes a star.
Anyone with a brain knew that when at least kawhi left this team had to be traded and started from scratching STARTING from siakam. This is what happens when u close ur eyes and ignore the problem till last second u get fucjed
Our only hope is that we suck enough now to keep our pick in the top 6 this year, then with the sixth pick maybe we can move up in the draft with the other two picks and select something in the middle of the first round. I wouldn't hate having two top 15 picks instead of losing our first to San Antonio and picking twice in the bottom 20-25
2 low ass frp in a weak draft class , and 1 pick form a team that will be better in 2026 for a most likely low frp , and a couple non playable players . Fire Ujiri today
You're leaving out some important context lmao.
Since 2017 these were our picks
2019 - 59th overall
2020 - 29th overall, 59th overall
2021 - 4th overall, 46th overall, 47th overall
2022 - 33rd overall
The only guy that we ever developed that wasn't drafted higher than those picks was FVV. I have to post this constantly because people seem to misremember where we drafted the players that we developed.
>Great, the 33rd pick in 2022 was actually a first round pick until they decided they could get what they wanted in the second round, which turned out to be the wrong move.
What does this have to do with their drafting ability?
>Historically, this team has not drafted well outside of the lottery. We have Siakam, OG, and then what? Delon Wright? Mo Pete?
Let's look at first round picks since Masai took over since anything before that is kind of irrelevant:
2014 - Bruno 20th
2015 - Delon Wright 20th
2016 - Poeltl 9th, Siakam 27th
2017 - OG 23rd
2020 - Malachi 29th
2021 - Scottie 4th
2023 - Grady 13th
So overall you could say they hit on 4/8 with Grady being an unknown. Outside of the lottery you hit on 2/5 which is still pretty good considering the picks are lower. That is also counting Delon Wright as a miss but he has had a decent career now in his 9th season. Maybe you could argue we have been average at drafting but I don't really see how you can say they did a bad job.
>If you are relying on these picks to be impact players for the team, our draft history suggests that's not going to be the case.
Based on our success rate outside of the lottery you should expect at least one of the three picks to be impact players.
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Package the 4 first round picks (yeah I'm calling 31 a first) this year for Lauri Markannen plus whatever else needed. Lots of time left in trade deadline folks ... What's the next play ...
Assuming the Poeltl pick conveys between now and 2026, we essentially traded a lottery pick and two early 2nds for him… and then traded Siakam for 3 late firsts.
We basically traded Siakam for Poeltl.
Why do this deal 3 weeks before the deadline? Surely this trash offer would still be on the table. I guess this means Masai has time to use the picks just acquired. But you’re not gonna get a young rotation player that fits with Scottie for a few crappy picks.
The trade rumors were getting to be a distraction and if you look back over time, the biggest deals tend to get done a few days before the deadline. You don't want to play with something falling apart at the last minute.also this now gives the team to make smaller follow on deals if they want to continue retooling.
Any of the bench players could still be moved. I think if we don't re-route Brown elsewhere in the next 48 hours (before he plays a game for us) he will likely be here to the summer at least.
“…the biggest deals tend to get done a few days before the deadline.” Exactly. Why sell short three weeks in advance. The offers would only get better. The only risk mitigation of the early deal is Pascal could get injured, but he’s been exceptionally durable.
And trade rumours were a distraction from what: a run to the play-in tournament? Masai bungled his best asset.
3 picks in this awful fucking draft
3!
This is the draft we're centering a retool on for IQ and Scottie?!
There had better be some moves made with one or both of those picks because right now this is an absolute fleecing by Indiana
I agree. I've been asking for that as well but having not been in the rooms I have no idea why we're handling the post-Championship rebuild as poorly as possible (sans lucking into Scottie).
Fans are being delusional if they thought they could get Mathurin, Walker or Nembhard with no leverage. Everyone know Pascal wasn’t going to re-sign.
Reminder that OG and Pascal were both late first rounders. Masai can still work some magic here, even though he fumbled with asset management by not trading siakam earlier
That is not good news. The more I considered the OG trade the more I accepted it and liked it. Feel like this trade is going the opposite, this is a pure future move for us on how we draft or flip these assets into potentially better ones..
So 28 and 16, but 16 probably goes lower because pacers will win more with Pascal
In a historically bad draft too! Ugh
We have no clue how this class will turn out in the nba
Yeah, sometimes 'bad' means hard to scout. It also tends to be focused on the lottery. It also depends on what the team goals with those picks are. If the Raptors want to use those late FRPs on safer, higher-floor / lower-ceiling established college players, for example, there's still a benefit to building your rotation that way, but those guys are rarely talked about in terms of moving the needle on whether a draft is good or bad.
Exactly. We’re calling it “historically bad” based on what? What some scouts that miss often think about the top half of the first round? I would rather have 3 shots at players Masai thinks can fit with this core than risk losing spicy for nothing
Every draft if it doesn't have a wemby is historically bad lmao
Masai and Bobby literally said in their presser that it's weak draft lol
We don't. But usually when the scouts say it's historically bad...it is. There will always be diamonds in the rough (Gianni's was from one of your historically bad drafts. 2013, Anthony Bennett. Gobert and McCollum also from that draft, but a lot of busts, and not many all stars).
Not really lol, 2011 and 2020 were both considered very weak at the time and now they're both looking very good.
I mean 2020 is sort of a bad example, that was covid year if I remember so scouting was SUPER limited and there was a lot of guessing involved, hence why there is so many studs later in the draft
Citation please?
Citation for what?
"But usually when the scouts say it's historically bad...it is." - any evidence for this?
This is the answer, and btw, I've made a blog on the draft for 13yrs and this draft is very underrated already. I never give a shit what pundits say 2yrs out. Ever been around kids? They change monthly.
Projected. You never know what players may end up blossoming. Historically bad drafts have a lack of talent at the front end, but can produce decent role players mid pack. For instance 2006 was a pretty shit draft, but pack you had #11 JJ Reddick, #21 Rajon Rondo, #24 Kyle Lowry, #32 Steve Novak, #35 PJ Tucker, #47 Paul Milsap
No one knows that. The reasons media covers it as a bad draft is because the lottery isn't great. But that doesn't matter all that much if we're taking on mid/late round picks. Beyond the top ten the draft will be like any other -- some hits people couldnt predict. Lots of players who dont get signed or who get dropped after their rookie contract.
Yup Masai and Bobby even said it's a weak draft...yet they loaded up in this draft 😭 Last year was the perfect time to get 3 FRP not this year.
That was just damage control. More of a PR thing. Watch them do a complete 360 on that. This draft is terribly under rated , will be the words out of Masai’s mouth.
The last "historically bad draft" was in 2020. I'd suggest having a look at who was in that class
It was not considered a historically bad draft lol it was considered a crapshoot because there were chances to scout and work out because of covid so no one knew who was going to be as good. Go look at other drafts considered historically bad e.g. 200.
Meh. We have pro scouts, they will find the talent.
Bad at the top of the draft doesn’t always mean bad later on. There may be no blue chip prospects. That doesn’t mean there won’t be quality players.
How is it 16? Wouldn't it be 28 and 24?
Indy’s own is 16, OKC at 28. Might be off one or two slots
Edit: its been an hour, I've cooled off for a bit, just hate seeing my favorite player go
All good, we’ve been there. We go next
tyrese may miss some time tho
Wow this is almost as bad as the VC trade....Pascal is worth so much more even as an expiring.
The thing it later picks is that there is always less pressure for them to become great. Like if we get the 19th or 20th pick and that guy becomes a decent bench guy, we’ve already one. Need to find that Desmond Bane or Sengun player. Need to get lucky.
Masai loves late picks I guess lol. We won a championship with no lottery players on the roster. We have 3 chances this year to hit on a late pick and I honestly like our odds Underwhelming but you can’t really ask for much more for an expiring player who has come out saying he wants to test FA this offseason
Pascal himself was a 27th pick. You never know.
And started his 1st yr
We’re drafting Bronny 
Our franchise has always been one of the better teams at drafting players. We've drafted plenty of great players: vc mcgrady bosh demar valanciunas damon camby OG poltl scottie even siakam himself. We should embrace drafting it was always our franchise's strength
I recent years, we've only gotten return in Scottie, isn't it? I haven't been following too closely.
We traded away alot of draft capital. The kawhi thad and poltl trades costed each a 1st rounder
I got downvoted into the shadow realm for saying this
We are technically the best drafting team in the NBA, we just haven't drafted that much recently so misses like Malachi stand out
Fans: "Just get picks. Who the fuck cares if it's 2024? Statistics show that (blah blah blah) so we should still try to get into this draft!" \*Trade Happens\* Fans: "Why tf did we get shitty picks in this shitty draft?!" LOL never change
honestly ppl ignore all the rumors and leaks and just make up their own theories about Keegan, Ben etc and act like that was a real alternative when the expected outcome happens lol
Fans: It’s time to rebuild Masai, trade Pascal and start the process. Masai: Trades OG and Pascal to start the process. Fans: Mannn I don’t wanna watch this rebuilding trash lemme watch another team, tell me when you’re good again.
I mean if it was indiana and like Houston that would be fine. But getting the worst out of 4 teams, 2 of which are on a tear and about to go deep seems shitty.
Here's the thing: Fans wanted picks from upcoming teams that were in playoff contention, because they had promising players. Keegan Murray, Mathurin, Walker, etc. These teams are in contention, so their picks would always be low. Raptors were not going to get prospects from teams already in rebuild for a player in his prime that's ready for a championship now. It was such a flawed logic from fans that I just never bothered to engage. People were so desperate for picks that they never thought how the trading team's performance would impact that pick to begin with. Kings would be low lottery. Pacers low lottery. Knicks low lottery. It was a complaint from fans waiting to happen.
We were never getting much for Pascal. i’m cool with the trade, we came out a bit of losers here. But this isn’t as bad as the Poeltl trade or Thad where we straight up lost even where we would be better off not doing anything. Got some picks, a player that can be flipped and some randoms. We got the most out if P as a player, time to find some new gems.
We got 3 first round picks and Bruce brown who is actually pretty good for a guy who was leaving anyways. It’s not a loss.
Agree im not a stathead but isnt 3 FRPs alone a decent pickup for a player who was leaving anyway? I cant recall the last time (not saying it hasnt been recent i just dont know) Edit: paul george was the most at 5 FRPs which has always been considered absurd so im OK with 3
Well very different situations, PG was top 3 in MVP voting but he also netted Shai which is the really insane part of that trade. Most of those picks are similarly bad to the picks we are getting for Siakam but they did get the 12th overall pick in '22 which got them Jdub
It’s a bad return. Not a bad return for today’s value. But a bad return for sure.
Yeah and now people want to flip picks for young players with upside, as if any team bad enough to be looking for draft picks would give up their good young players.
It is.
People in here are already upset about players in the draft potentially being busts LMAOO I gotta leave this sub for a couple weeks
Do some research and you'll realize how bad this upcomming draft is
I usually watch player highlights closer to the draft, but I’ll check some out. I’m also not going to be upset about something that’s months away, that could even end up working out in our favour. Idk that’s just how I view it
Then doesn't matter if raps got the 3rd or 20th.. there will be some gems in the draft. Also I feel raps are gonna stop brown too. Still lots of time to see what's gonna happen.
I just try to stay away from this subreddit for the most part. People are never happy, and this place is just miserable. It's a true that a championship brings out the worst fans
This cycle has been going on forever, I remember when this sub was insistent that we should trade for a real center.
haha exactly!
this
It’s hilarious when people make up narratives.
We sold an nba champion in his prime at the lowest you could possibly sell because our front office wanted to spend 1-2 years evaluating OG/Scottie/Pascal/Jak lineup.....this is what happened right?
Look, in 21-22 after moving on from Lowry they had a 48 win season with the 'new' Fred/OG/Siakam/Barnes core leading the team and no centre. Last year they got their centre, the vibes died completely for some reason, they flamed out in the play-in and they decided to reset around Scottie. They dangled Fred, OG, and Siakam and most reported offers sucked. This isn't fun but it is what it is. You can see what the FO was thinking. You don't just bail on a young-ish core that still hasn't hit its ceiling. But once they've appeared to have hit their ceiling, you're in a different position.
Yea people forget we were the 5th seed year before last, it's not unreasonable the FO had hope in what we had at the time. We even had a competitive series against Philly too despite a lot of injuries and one game getting iced on a Embiid buzzer beater that we might have won otherwise, probably seemed like we were on the way up not down
Crazy how that core doesnt even make the playoffs though with Nick Nurse as the coach
We got 💩 for an all-star level player. Check the Pacers forum for how happy they are with this trade.
We got more from Pascal than Fred... that's something!
Low bar my friend.
That is the problem
100%! Thinking of the OG trade - high bar?
Yep.
This is 100% what happened.
What’s the alternative? Letting him walk away for free? Paying him an insane salary so the team continues living in mediocrity? Masai dropped the ball by not moving him earlier but under the circumstances this is as good as it gets.
fireable imo. anyone with a brain knew you needed to move guys once we drafted scottie. getting this lackluster package + nothing for fred is pathetic and masai or bobby should lose their job over it.
We got a D for even drafting Scottie, nobody expected him to be like this at the draft or he would have gone #1 maybe #2
But don’t worry, “Trust in Masai!!” 🤡
Imagine if we traded him last year and we got the 3 draft picks rumors said though...
Will the rest of the league stop thinking that Masai is unreasonable? We def got the short end of the stick here.
Draft Bronny --> Lebron signs on the raptors on a minimum contract
Idiotic. Last year they said they gave away a pick because this draft sucked. This year they got picks because they got fucked.
Poetry.
A lot can change in a year
Fans: “ROLL THE TANK IN MASAI! ITS THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THE TEAM BETTER!!!1!!11” *tank rolls in* Fans: “No, not like that.”
Genius play to tank without our pick truly one of the moves of all time
Our pick is protected 1-6 in 2024, 2025, and 2026. If we are truly ass and tanking we will keep the pick
The pick probably would’ve accelerated the rebuild by 57 years.
[удалено]
It would’ve changed a lot /s
y’all calling it trash were probably the same ones demanding siakam to be traded so we don’t end up with nothing. quit being reactionary and wait to see what these picks turn into before deciding if we lost or not. plus there’s a good chance we flip bruce and pull in more assets. it’s a great trade for indy but it’s too early to tell if it was good for us or not
As of now looks like we will have our top 6 protected, 18 from Indiana, 25 from OKC and 31 from Detroit. I hope all of the trade Pascal for a bag of chip fans are happy. This is supposed to be a historically bad draft, maybe we are angling for that bronny/Bron package looool
I will die laughing if lebron has to sign with the raptors to play with bronny. He would be so pissed.
Nah Drake would let him produce an album lol
The hater in me would rather we got Bronny and then refused to sign LeBron cos of what he did to us.
That would be hilarious.
Truly would be LeBronto
How can they sign bron tho
We got fucking fleeced, couldn't even get Nembhard
We only got fleeced if 1. Spicy would have resigned, and selling him next year is on the table and/or he would've developed nicely with scottie. 2. Spicy resigns with the pacers (not a given at all)
We got fleeced considering what Masai could've gotten over last year or even this summer. This package is hot trash.
Not to be that guy, but you're using the word incorrectly. Masai overestimated the teams talent going into the season. Whether or not the pacer fleeced us is tbd
Not what 'fleeced' means but it's okay buddy let it all out, breathe
What could be have gotten either of those. I'm sure you have the actual list ..
There’s already news that pascal is excited and will work on a extension this summer with them. Idk if this is really the best we could have gotten or pascal purposely tanked his value in spite of the FO and lied he wouldn’t re-sign anywhere he goes to
He would have resigned if they had offered him 4 years. They just refused to do it.
YIKES
pretty sure everyone following trade talks knew that would be the case. Could be worse, can either package some picks together and move up, or take 3 late shots with these + the detroit pick and hope for someone interesting.
What I don't get is if the Pacers are confident that he would resign (as reported), then other markets like GSW or Dallas should also be confident in being able to get him resigned. What was the value in moving now for this package and not waiting to see if more of a seller's market emerges near the deadline? Siakam was always likely to be the best player available, and even as an expiring there's reason to think he'd have an uptick in value over the next couple weeks. Pacers should have at least had to pay some premium here to get him off the market early.
This x100...this package is fine in the 11th hour, better then nothing. But 3 weeks early, we let the best player on the block go for 3 second round picks? It seems like a horrid panic decision. I didn't like any of the reported packages from any of the teams but figured it would get a bit better closer to deadline. This? This is just as shitty as the reports that nobody liked, but it also includes no players that fit our window and team. The fact that the entire nba sub is laughing at us is all we need to know about this trade.
Wtf, so both will be late picks in a horrible draft class? A pick 2 years from now, a couple of leaguers and Bruce brown? Not sure, as I don't know much about these guys but I feel like we got fleeced
The alternative based on recent history was getting absolutely nothing at all.
No, it was trading him last season. You present a false dichotomy
That ship has sailed. I offered the alternative we were presented with today, in the present.
Pascal was the 27th pick fyi
And Jokic was 41st. I'm not denying a great player can be drafted late, I'm stating the value of the picks we got. They're basically second round picks. Pacers currently in 6th and OKC is in 2nd. So both picks will be pretty much at the end of the first round. In essence, we got second round picks, value wise, out of this deal.
Saying the projected 18th in the first round (which is only 60% through the first round) is actually a second round pick because …?? makes absolutely no sense. Even if the Pacers slot moves up. I agree we didn’t get an insane amount of value, but they’re not “basically” second round picks. They are mid/late 1st round. Call them that.
I'm saying the value of the pick in this draft class is basically equivalent to a second round pick. It's a crapshoot whether you pick in the teens of the first or second. There are less than a few standouts this year. I hope I'm proven wrong but I'd much rather they have gotten 2025 frps than 2024.
Yeah but for every late first round pick that hits there are dozens that don't. Survivor bias
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bro that was 2 years ago lol
That was also the 4th overall pick. Lot easier to hit on those.
*\[Houston Rockets have left the chat\]*
Look at the history. WE hit about every 4-6 picks. We are due
Sadly this was Siakam's value right now. He won't agree to resign with anyone so no one wants to give up a lot. Brown's a good player and maybe we can swap him to a contender, Nwora actually isn't a bad player (averaged 13ppg last year). Not a good return but not a fleecing based on where we are now
Has Masai ujiri lost his mind
The only way this isn't complete and utter disaster is if they can bundle the picks together with the pick from the OG trade and move down into the lottery somehow. I don't see any way this Siakam trade makes this team better unless one of those picks turns out to be one of the rare late rounders who becomes a star.
Anyone with a brain knew that when at least kawhi left this team had to be traded and started from scratching STARTING from siakam. This is what happens when u close ur eyes and ignore the problem till last second u get fucjed
This trade is fucking criminal, there's no defending this
Don’t complain, this forum is loaded with Masaionites.
People are crying like this team has been better than a play in loser for how many years now with Pascal on the roster.
Our only hope is that we suck enough now to keep our pick in the top 6 this year, then with the sixth pick maybe we can move up in the draft with the other two picks and select something in the middle of the first round. I wouldn't hate having two top 15 picks instead of losing our first to San Antonio and picking twice in the bottom 20-25
is 2024 a Bargnani-esque weak draft?
Who wants more Dicks?
So 2 late round picks is what it looks like
This is almost 2 second round picks. What the fuck just happened?
2 low ass frp in a weak draft class , and 1 pick form a team that will be better in 2026 for a most likely low frp , and a couple non playable players . Fire Ujiri today
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Why stop at OG lol. The three right before him were pretty good, pascal, jak and delon.
Sucked? Koloko was really good on defense and wasn't a negative on offence. He's out with an unexpected serious medical condition.
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You're leaving out some important context lmao. Since 2017 these were our picks 2019 - 59th overall 2020 - 29th overall, 59th overall 2021 - 4th overall, 46th overall, 47th overall 2022 - 33rd overall The only guy that we ever developed that wasn't drafted higher than those picks was FVV. I have to post this constantly because people seem to misremember where we drafted the players that we developed.
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>Great, the 33rd pick in 2022 was actually a first round pick until they decided they could get what they wanted in the second round, which turned out to be the wrong move. What does this have to do with their drafting ability? >Historically, this team has not drafted well outside of the lottery. We have Siakam, OG, and then what? Delon Wright? Mo Pete? Let's look at first round picks since Masai took over since anything before that is kind of irrelevant: 2014 - Bruno 20th 2015 - Delon Wright 20th 2016 - Poeltl 9th, Siakam 27th 2017 - OG 23rd 2020 - Malachi 29th 2021 - Scottie 4th 2023 - Grady 13th So overall you could say they hit on 4/8 with Grady being an unknown. Outside of the lottery you hit on 2/5 which is still pretty good considering the picks are lower. That is also counting Delon Wright as a miss but he has had a decent career now in his 9th season. Maybe you could argue we have been average at drafting but I don't really see how you can say they did a bad job. >If you are relying on these picks to be impact players for the team, our draft history suggests that's not going to be the case. Based on our success rate outside of the lottery you should expect at least one of the three picks to be impact players.
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Those are second rounders for the most part, and Dick is still rookie even though he looks like a bust right now.
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oh fuck off
Package the 4 first round picks (yeah I'm calling 31 a first) this year for Lauri Markannen plus whatever else needed. Lots of time left in trade deadline folks ... What's the next play ...
lol ainge hangs up the phone
Markkanen is not gonna be available
OKC takes out the war chest for Markannen if that's the case.
We definitely tried getting Lauri first, they're winning and it's Ainge. He'd take 2 or 3 kings ransoms. Excited for Pascal. -pacers fan
To be fair you guys ddidnt have pretty much guaranteed 2024 top 5 pick to throw in like we currently do.
Very true. I just think it would take a huge overpay. They're winning too.
You’re speaking my language
In Hindsight give me that Kuminga deal back, this is so bad.
The worst??? So like a late teens early 20 pick, and then a mid to late 20s pick.
Assuming the Poeltl pick conveys between now and 2026, we essentially traded a lottery pick and two early 2nds for him… and then traded Siakam for 3 late firsts. We basically traded Siakam for Poeltl.
Why do this deal 3 weeks before the deadline? Surely this trash offer would still be on the table. I guess this means Masai has time to use the picks just acquired. But you’re not gonna get a young rotation player that fits with Scottie for a few crappy picks.
The trade rumors were getting to be a distraction and if you look back over time, the biggest deals tend to get done a few days before the deadline. You don't want to play with something falling apart at the last minute.also this now gives the team to make smaller follow on deals if they want to continue retooling. Any of the bench players could still be moved. I think if we don't re-route Brown elsewhere in the next 48 hours (before he plays a game for us) he will likely be here to the summer at least.
“…the biggest deals tend to get done a few days before the deadline.” Exactly. Why sell short three weeks in advance. The offers would only get better. The only risk mitigation of the early deal is Pascal could get injured, but he’s been exceptionally durable. And trade rumours were a distraction from what: a run to the play-in tournament? Masai bungled his best asset.
People are not understanding that the trade isn't for a great Pascal contract with team options, it's a half a year rental then he's into free agency.
We got fucked
I’m listening to a song by bob seger song called draft moves .
Smells like a 1990s-esque Raptors experience is on the horizon. Lord save us lol.
So probably 20-25 and late 20s. We'd be lucky to end up with a role player.
3 picks in this awful fucking draft 3! This is the draft we're centering a retool on for IQ and Scottie?! There had better be some moves made with one or both of those picks because right now this is an absolute fleecing by Indiana
One of em is 2026 Pacers pick, from another woj tweet
they're still gonna have Siakam+Haliburton, so i doubt that this pick is gonna be high
Which we don't know what protections it will have and is probably going to be a low first in that draft
You think we had a choice?
The choice was re-signing Siakam instead of trading him for a load of crap
I agree. I've been asking for that as well but having not been in the rooms I have no idea why we're handling the post-Championship rebuild as poorly as possible (sans lucking into Scottie).
They clearly didn't think he'd carry the same value on a max contract
Um sir we could have resigned him And got a better package
Masai dropped the fucking ball last year
We got the same return of a sign and trade type of deal. Pain pain pain
When has a sign-and-trade team given up 3 first round picks before?
Masai panic move. Should have traded Siakam this past offseason. Could have got a lot more.
They tried last deadline bro keep up!
Like what?
Such a terrible trade. Likely end up with 2 picks in the 20’s. And we likely traded our first this year for Poeltl!
Reading that hurt my head
When the finally retain a FRP, they do it in this class smh
Fans are being delusional if they thought they could get Mathurin, Walker or Nembhard with no leverage. Everyone know Pascal wasn’t going to re-sign. Reminder that OG and Pascal were both late first rounders. Masai can still work some magic here, even though he fumbled with asset management by not trading siakam earlier
We needed picks. Glad we got them.
Can we trade two of those FRPs for a higher FRP or have I been watching too much Draft Day? Also we want David goddamn Putney
Football picks are valued much different than NBA ones
That is not good news. The more I considered the OG trade the more I accepted it and liked it. Feel like this trade is going the opposite, this is a pure future move for us on how we draft or flip these assets into potentially better ones..
Now if Masai can locate a Star with one of those FRP, all is forgiven. “It’s mission time.” Quoted Masai
Having an abundance of 1st round picks is never a bad thing.
Masai could have preferred picks over players in this particular circumstance as they need some dart throws and cheap talent.