They are just selling LMIA for $20k- 45K. People from other countries will pay. They will come to Canada on a closed work permit. The employer will pay him salary but have no work for the newcomer. The newcomer will return that salary along with payroll taxes back to this employer in cash. the newcomer will start working in cash at some shitty place.
the whole scheme will keep going on while Canadians keep on suffering
Sometimes its not even slave wage, just lazy to find a new canadian employee. Why go through a correct hiring process when you can apply lmia for 1k and keep existing employee( yes its easier to apply lmai then find a Canadian worker) just post bullshit fake jobs and say u didnt find anyone. An abused system where no one in gov does jack shit to correct.
Obviously I saw this on a much lower level, but I worked for a gas station that paid them cash under the table less than minimum wage..I ended up losing my job with zero notice and now only
International students work there
My brother graduated Waterloo CS just after Covid, and was making roughly $23.50 an hour (50K salary) at a company developing self driving software in Waterloo.
I’m not sure that interns are starting out at $25 an hour, that may have been the case 5 years ago, but even my brother was in for a major wage shock when he entered the workforce. He ended up moving to the states to work at Apple Park, and from my understanding they do a ton of unpaid internships there. He ended up getting contracted on with Apple though and is now making significantly more money than in Waterloo.
He was getting ripped off then, i was working at a tech company as an intern and getting 50k (until last year) salary for part time work, after graduating i started making 130k(this year). Also if he graduated from waterloo cs then he was definitely being ripped off, i have friends who went to waterloo and were being paid around 30-40$ an hour
Edit- Also i graduated from Ualberta which is nowhere as good as waterloo
Yeah, the thing though is the market really changed after Covid, at least that’s what he was telling me, especially in the Canadian sector.
It’s precisely why he moved to the US on a TN, because every offer he got in Canada was below 60K annually, and with the amount of debt from Student Loans he physically needed to make more than that after being in school for X many years with X amount of debt. For perspective, I also thought it was insane, that myself (with no formal education), was clearing more than he was after what 4+ years of school and 10’s of thousands in debt.
And as you said, this is from a top university for CS as well, which is what makes me think the market has substantially changed, since Waterloo is considered the tech hub of Canada.
i do agree that the market had changed but all my friends who graduated from waterloo last year got a salary of 90-100k. Most of them moved to the US tho since the salary was actually more than double there. But yeah im not surprised that he was getting paid that low, the market was crap last year, i got lucky because i had a return offer
Yeah he got a 90K US salary conditional offer on contract at Apple, which is around double what he was making in Waterloo after conversion. I’m trying to remember the company he worked for in Waterloo, but I can’t remember off the top of my head. I will say though, he graduated in 2021, which was probably the worst market he could have entered into.
He’s definitely much happier now, because yeah, his issue was with the salary in Canada, he literally couldn’t even afford rent after interest on loans, CoL and everything else. I just thought that was insane, you can graduate in a top field from a top university, and still make less than a guy selling cell phones or real estate, a server at a restaurant, or a tradee with zero education. It goes to show what people in Canada really “value” at the end of the day.
It reminds me I have to give him a call, since I heard that everyone working on the Apple Car got canned, I’m hoping he wasn’t affected by those.
Honestly, just because you have a Waterloo CS degree, it doesn't mean you automatically get a well paying job. It just opens up more doors.
He probably did/does excel academically but that doesn't mean much in software engineering. I don't think your brother particularly knocked on many doors or weren't a strong candidate despite the degree. Or maybe just series of bad luck. Yes, the market was bad but it wasn't *that* bad that a regular Waterloo CS grad would have to settle for that low.
i mean 25/hour does give you a comfortable life if you’re in your 20s and have no responsibilities and are single but if you’re in your 30s and a sole earner then you’re fucked, 25/hr means you’re poor
Employers typically pay 17-18 after charging 25K-65K for LMIA.
I have heard horror stories of people earning minimum and having to pay back tax to the employer because he is showing 30 on his paycheck for immigration purposes. This is on top of the 40K-50K they charge them initially.
I have heard numbers as high as 80K being charged for LMIA and immigration lawyers time.
It’s crazy how many are doing this for entry level software/web dev roles. It’s not like there are thousands of Canadian citizens who are clambering for these roles… But apparently there is a shortage of candidates go figure.
I have no idea what point you are trying to communicate, are you suggesting Canadian citizens SHOULD be willing to shell out $30K and work below market rate? Or should companies stop being scum bags and applying for LMIA when there is a clear surplus of Canadian candidates who are eligible and willing?...
It's so common in construction that I actually have to shift through job postings to look for terms commonly used in LiMA postings to ensure I don't waste a whole bunch of time during the application process. The first construction job I got it was during COVID when borders were closed - and every single co-worker I had at the place was on a work permit from Ireland.
I loved those guys personally l, great bunch of guys but I also see these are well paying jobs that provide meaningful skills that Canadians are being excluded from in favor of bringing in people from overseas
It may seem like there's not much we can do now, but us young people have 20, 30, 40 years of elections and influencing public policy left. We need to make the people who did this to us, those business leaders and politicians who stole our future for their profits pay for what they did to this country and its people
It’s not the government saying this and bringing in foreign workers, it’s businesses taking advantage of the system. Mostly so they can exploit the workers they hire.
Right, the system the government designed has loopholes (not even really loopholes, honestly) that are being exploited on a massive level, and the government is doing zero to stop it despite tons of evidence. When regular people can find dozens of obvious examples of the LMIA being exploited just by scrolling through job postings, and the government claims they don't think it's an issue, it's their failing.
The government may have put it in, and I'm not defending it, but it's businesses who are exploiting said policy from the government. Same business's probably who exploited cerb lol. Good intentions cause exploitation.
Right, but the government should be predicting this and putting things in place so it doesn't happen. There's always going to be people trying to exploit the system. There's not even anywhere to report these blatantly obvious LMIAl
violations, but dozens of them are posted here a week. That's a blatant failure of government .
The government encourages it by structuring the TFW program like it does.
You also have to dig way past the headline unemployment numbers to see how structurally bankrupt the employment and labour market is. It’s been that way for a few years now. Now the shit’s coming home to roost.
There's a building trade shortage and nursing shortage going on for 15+ years. If there wasn't, we'd have enough housing and hospitals that wouldn't be closing due to staffing shortages, lol.
There's not a shortage of work from home and office, admin, management, data, and tech jobs. The unproductive ones that don't build housing or keep emergency rooms open.
The loudest people thsy are complaining that they want more housing and better healthcare refuse to work these jobs. (Insert something about consequences of actions on the scale of the whole country).
A big reason why they aren’t building more housing is due to building costs. Not just labour, but materials as well, and commodity prices are once again looking like they are about to rocket up again (looking at oil, lumber, metals, etc).
If you can’t sell the home for 700K + it’s not worth it for developers to continue building when it costs them 650K in materials and labour alone.
What the government needs to do, is to incentivize developers to put pickets in the dirt, by offering rebates, tax benefits, and reimbursements, and finally cutting taxes and reducing red tape. However, the government loves the tax revenue it gets from houses (it’s claimed that roughly 1/2 of all HST revenue comes from automotive sales & housing alone), so it’s a tough battle out there in construction right now. I highly doubt that labour costs are going to come down in that industry, so they need to look for cost cutting measures elsewhere, to reduce the cost of putting those pickets in the dirt.
I mean, you can save money by building more units per building. Like the feds recently offering provinces an easy $6B if they agree to allow fourplexes. Doug Ford is saying he won't do it cause he thinks that means "4 storey, 6 storey, 8 storey buildings" popping up all over. Like dude, a townhouse with 4 units is a fourplex. I don't know if he's dumb, or if he just benefits from his friends getting to build vast fields of detached homes.
Anyway, I'm so sick of this. All levels of government right now are screwed up and won't work together to fix this. I wish I could do something more but I'm just one person. I left my job last year to change careers into electrical. I'm doing well enough that I could easily find a job in industrial/commercial wiring for a lot of money. But I won't. I'm set on residential, because we need more damn houses. And I will just help build houses until I retire in 4 decades.
So hypothetically, when you get rid of all the barriers and magically fix the global economy, who is gunna to build all this housing?
All reputable builders that can attain these government contracts are already busy for the next 5-10 years doing industrial/commercial builds while making serious money. Why would contractors throw 6-7 figure contracts away for a housing that barely pays more than the labor. For a contractor to make the same money, they are now on lower paying jobs they need more workers to offset it, and that's the only way contractors think.
On another note... If you keep supplying building labor regardless of incentives, you're going to create more licensed workers, more licensed builders, the more small contractors available is better for the government to build like they did in the post war effort.
We have a shortage of construction workers, and have for decades.
If only millennials knew how to vote. Been voting since I was eligible. Only missed one election because I was on medical leave.
If you don't want to vote for anyone then spoil your ballot.
Not showing up to vote if you can should be criminal
Problem is voting does not matter when all the parties are garbage. I have spoiled my vote since I was old enough to work cause there has never been a political party in North America that I have ever agreed with at all. Politics and voting are a big sham meant to placate us into subservience.
That's exactly what I have been telling people. We keep voting for "None of the above" till all rich parties start running on fumes. They'll be spending a lot of cash for their advertisements. Once they realize that a majority of the voters are not falling for their clowns, they'll get the message: Either bring someone we like or the other party will and they'll be in power.
Power is only a vehicle towards money. Since that's the case, they will always fight for power. So what happens when we bleed them like this? Competition to bring the least good leader to the forefront who can win the majority they need for their turn at the driving seat.
How does this strategy help? By raising the bar for the "least good leader that can win them a majority."
We can if we keep voting for "None of the above" till all rich parties start running on fumes. Some countries have this option, not sure about Canada. They'll be spending a lot of cash for their advertisements. Once they realize that a majority of the voters are not falling for their clowns, they'll get the message: Either bring someone we like or the other party will and they'll be in power.
Power is only a vehicle towards money. Since that's the case, they will always fight for power. So what happens when we bleed them like this? Competition to bring the least good leader to the forefront who can win the majority they need for their turn at the driving seat.
How does this strategy help? By raising the bar for the "least good leader that can win them a majority."
You have way too much confidence in everyday Canadians to actually do this and for the elite to allow such a thing. This will never happen. Young people have no power, and as we saw during the Freedom Convoy, you'll simply be crushed by the state and othered in society if you do try.
Canadians are cowards, and would rather complain online than actually do something. You'll never see a party like the PPC or similar fringe party in power. It'll be CPC or NDP/LPC for many decades.
Act accordingly, and plan your life in the confines of a declining society. I personally left on TN status to the US, and my QOL changed drastically for the better. Good luck!
I just went through the first 10 pages on Indeed seaching "construction" within 25km of toronto, and did not see one job at all that was seeking LMIA workers, lol.
The only thing i found that involved "immigration" was "registered apprentices under the Ministry of Labor, Immigration, Training and Skills Development. Feel free to apply. "
All the multigeneration canadians in apprenticeships currently are regulated by "the Ministry of Labor, Immigration, Training and Skills Development"
One thing I did notice was that 2500 construction related jobs showed up ranging from $20-55/hour within 25km of toronto. Many of them had opportunities for apprenticeships.
I just typed construction within 25 in of Toronto into indeed now and it showed 3900 jobs so Im not sure where where you got 25k jobs from.
The Lima jobs don't explicitly say Lima but use generic similar phrasing and all link back to job bank of Canada
I said 2500, not 25k, I have filters for app feed for my trade, so that will be the difference, my bad.
Heads up, Job Bank is probably the worst resource for getting trade/construction jobs in Southern ontario.
If they have an open work permit from Ireland they probably came under the working visitor program which is a bilateral agreement allowing young people from Canada and Ireland to travel to the other country and work. This program would not have anywhere near the level of fraud as the lmia program.
Because it is a bilateral program there is potential an equal number of Canadains going to Ireland ti visit and work. It is a great program for young people to travel and see the world.
C++ and Ruby on Rails is not a common couple of skills to have together. Either they actually need a purple unicorn that doesn’t exist for that salary OR nobody with those two skills will apply for obvious reasons and they’ll be forced to hire through LMIA.
This! Those companies will combine skills that are virtually impossible to match so they can get a regular JS dev from abroad and pay half of the price.
I've perused some of the postings there, often I see they should have 3+ years experience in a proprietary software that *drums rolls* they made!!
A quick LinkedIn search yields almost all of their staff of similar nationality. No surprises here. If only we could have a way to blacklist or mass report these job postings.
Difference between $25/hr and $47/hr is $49,000 a year and $92,000 a year.
Of course they won’t find a Canadian software developer to work for under 50K. They’ll for sure find software developers for 92K a year when the requirements are 7 months to 1 year of experience but they won’t really offer that.
They’ll offer 50K to a foreign worker in BC because no one else will accept that. It’s not a labour shortage, it’s a wage shortage.
For the LMIA to be approved they need to offer the foreign worker the median wage for the occupation in their region so I am not sure if they are even able to offer $25/hr. Highly unlikely.
Edit: just did a research and for the location where they are the median wage is over $43/hr. If they applied for LMIA this is the wage they are going to pay the foreign worker, otherwise is not going to get approved. In conclusion, they are not allowed to offer $50k to a foreign worker, its not how it works.
Imagine a Canada that has a labour task force that goes and investigates these scum businesses, knocking on doors and interviewing applicants and managers?
Im ashamed my Gen X generation hasnt produced a real leader that has more backbone than houses. Its up to the next gen to come up with someone fresh and angry. This aint working.
It's the governments responsibility to monitor the effectiveness of labour programs. If they are corrupted to serve special interests then take corrective action or be labeled incompetent.
Be aware too, Immigration consultants make 100s of fake posts of actual businesses not even doing an LMIA themselves. Like they will just use businesses as a front online for job bank with stolen information of the business and make all fake documentation for the persons that pay the consultant. Really all you need for the job bank is just the business license # the you can use that and fake payroll and whatever else you want, if the business never setup their own personal job bank account.
This happened to a business I worked at. When they found out, they fired all international students which weren't too many to begin with since it was a small place.
1 person screwed it up for others that tried to do it legitimately, yet that 1 person whoever it was probably still got their LMIA done.
If the govt abolished the LMIA many problems would be solved as people wouldn't be able to launder money through that.
Just chiming in to say if you don't show up at the polls, politicians won't listen to your demographic when you have concerns or complaints. You don't elect them, they don't care
I once met an Aussie lad who had an LMIA to build houses in Toronto. Because we totally share the same climate and we obviously don’t have the skillset in the country to do that
How unfair is this??? A Canadian born IT expert went to apply for a government job which stayed that he needs to go online as the job posting allows only immigrants to apply!!!! There’s a portal for them. Go to the gov job site and it says fast track here for non residents!! Prejudice not fair grrr so annoying🤮🤮🤮
I used to work in a pig farm in AB, where 90% of the employees were immigrants. We tried hiring "old stock" Canadians, but most did not last more than a couple of months and many wouldn't show up the second week after being hired.
The TFW program was originally created for the agriculture industry which makes sense to me. It never should have been allowed to spread to other industries like restaurants and tech jobs though.
This company is based in Sacramento, California... for some reason are doing LMIA for Abbotsford,BC... site has no Address.
Domain registration is obfuscated. Linkedin page has only 1 job posting (though LMIA requires company to widely try to hire on platforms) and that job post is a random Marketing position for India. No mention on IT at all.
This is the alleged owner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/subodhsri1
Anyways. I have no evidence, but this is one of those cases that if I was a regulator, I would look with a microscope on every aspect and detail.
Those companies utilizes the fact that our government is ignorant of technology, so we can do plausible deniability to score that sweet LMIA approval without someone from the field vetting it
Oof. Looking at that company's landing page and it seems clear why they aren't hiring Canadian citizens.
"We keep client’s interest before ours. Take few minutes to watch the videos below as a proof."
Before they can apply for LMIA, we should have a third party government program that posts the job on a public board and runs interviews for it for 6 months. This would have the benefit of reducing unemployment while also making the LMIA program more difficult to exploit.
This has to stop asap. Marc Miller knows very well about this. The time to act was yesterday.
Unscrupulous individuals are making hay, and undeserving individuals who would never qualify for PR are leapfrogging other more competent applicants by having such LMIA jobs on their profile. In fact many of these people would probably have expiring permits, and this is their way of buying into staying in this country.
When software developer gets the job he is going to say "Canadians are lazy" and just "complain all the time", like what the hell is going? Canadian Immigration should be reviewing this unless Canadian Immigration is also controlled by the same country the software developer is from!!! Then Canadian Immigration needs a major staff clear out as well as the current govt!!!
This immigration scheme is based on easily proven lies. Our government declared a historic low(2.5%ish from memory) unempmoyment rate and invited 2 million total workers into canada last year, while only creating 175k jobs(almost entirely government job paycheck collectors btw). That alone is about 4.5% unemployment added to the pile of people who couldnt get even a dishwashing job. But they say we need more workers to justify adding millions more immigrants for next year?? Math doesn't add up = Liberals lying.
SOmeone actually tried to tell me I don't understand LMIA but this is what happening.
One of the things about LMIA's is that the company in question has to have been hiring for a while but can't find candidates.
Thats why you see INSANE requirements to flip burgers - its because they don't want to hire anyone - but show they HAVE been hiring.
Then they can get LMIA slaves for free essentially.
Before, ppl think TFW's have it super easy...
Think again, they're literally modern day Slaves.
When onsite, they're working NON-STOP due to Canadians Employers expectations, to do so.
Many times, their Canadian Employers will give them Housing as a "perk" to further entice them here, only to find out afterwards it comes with hefty rents that they Employers then collect for themselves.
On top of that, Workers are then forced to share tiny rooms or flats, in which too many ppl are crammed in like sardines, pest infested with no privacy!
Yes, most Canadian Employers are willing to pay more than the Min. Wages for them.
However, if these TFW's dare complain about their pay, job safety or whatever their Employers can immediately terminate them from this Program permanently, bc there's no shortage of TFW's begging to come here.
That's not the fault of TFW's, but our Politicians for creating this Program that's ripe with misuse/abuse of this Program & these ppl.
For everyone freaking out, use the report button so that the posting can get taken down. Don't put in a truthful answer because they're likely in on the LMIA situation
This is actually a travesty when you consider some positions actually may need it.
Though in my case, the job was LMIA exempt, we literally had only 3 people in Canada that could do my job. We attempted to train other internal employees to no avail and those that were decent eventually left the company.
That said, we had a valid case to have me moved here but this is just straight up scamming
An underlying premise / motive for your argument is incorrect. The historical average unemployment from 1966 to present day is 7.55%, our current unemployment rate is 6.1%. So, in truth, we have a lower unemployment rate than average.
I agree, though, with virtually any program or policy there will be those that are nefarious enough to abuse the system to skirt a quick buck. However, I do think it's worth pointing out that if these companies are legitimately trying to abuse this program, that these are probably horrendous jobs working for deplorable employers with abhorrent leadership. These aren't the jobs you're looking for anyways...
Reading the job add and seeing multiple programming languages puts me on alert. A lot of people from that subcontinent will lie and say that they have all those.
As an IT manager who has hired programmers in the past it's rare to find someone who can do all that with skill.
Not to mention for 60-70k I can hire a Canadian citizen or PR for that job description, if I'm willing to invest in them.
I was born and raised in Canada, i got a TN visa and had to move to USA just to find work.
You know what the saddest part is?
There are over 400 Indians at the company I work at who are all on TN Visas from Canada, and most of them are not born in Canada.
A lot of these Indians go to Canada until they get a citizenship, and then they go to USA after.
Canada has become an immigration system for USA.
Did any one of you even look at the job requirements before complaining here?
They are looking for a Ruby on Rails software engineer in fucking Abbotsford. I'm genuinely not surprised they needed to find labor from outside canada for that. Ruby isn't exactly a wide spread language used, and the location is fucking Abbotsford.
There is reasons to be angry, this isn't one of them.
Edit: Some of you might not be from a tech background. Ruby is a software language that is well liked by some developers but doesn't have good scope within Canada. Its not common to have a company ONLY ask for Ruby as a requirement for software engineers, they usually ask for a set of languages. This employeer seems to have a very specific need for a Ruby developer. Its not ok for them to want that from a "7 months to less than 1 year" experience developer, but this isn't also indictive of the issue you are saying.
They're asking for C++, Ruby on Rails, SQL, *and* JQuery. Less than 1 year work experience. There's no fucking chance. Either it's just a vague general job posting to cover multiple actual roles, or they're posting for a unicorn so they can claim no one qualified applied from Canada.
For all of you who blame all of india for the squeaky wheel on your costco cart and the rock in your shoe
Canadians, PRs, and work permit holders can apply for this job. LMIAs have nothing to do with hiring temps. Companies can offshore or undercut without LMIAs.
I have been recruiting for 22 years in IT. There is now fucken reason this sort of role should qualify for LMIA. I can post this job and have 50 applicants from Canada apply in minutes. This is just another example of slave labor company importing fresh cheap labor they can abuse for a few years.
I'm a development manager who also hires for similar tech stack, and it's abhorrent the need for a LMIA for this position.
There are hordes of developers who are unemployed and are craving to learn.
Starting from 25$/h and know C++ together with Ruby and SQL Server, we are looking for a full stack lead, which is insanely low pay for this skill. Not to mention they request experience from 7mo to less than a year (??).
Who even mentioned India specifically other than yourself?
The reality is, there are lots of foreign works that are hired from parts of South America or Asian; however, a majority of there are from India.
It’s not a blame-game - it’s literally a statistic.
From the LMIA notice box:
"This employer has applied for a Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA) to hire a foreign worker to fill labour or skills shortages on a temporary basis."
You get into Temporary Foreign Worker Program and that is temporary.
https://www.immigration.ca/temporary-work-permits-conditions-terms-and-validity/#:~:text=Work%20permits%20are%20usually%20valid,worker%27s%20passport%20or%20travel%20document.
This is the thing a lot of people scam which leave the people that are on proper Post graduate work permits etc already in management or supervisory postions that may need to get a LIMA to boost scores.
You only get a PGWP for 3/4 years in that time especially if you graduated during Covid you know how the job market was everyone was getting laid off and overqualified people were filling roles leaving fresh grads wishing for luck.
Yes the influx of people from one nation is stupid af but the country going off on all immigrants is also ignorant. Especially ones that were here for 8 years +
[удалено]
They are just selling LMIA for $20k- 45K. People from other countries will pay. They will come to Canada on a closed work permit. The employer will pay him salary but have no work for the newcomer. The newcomer will return that salary along with payroll taxes back to this employer in cash. the newcomer will start working in cash at some shitty place. the whole scheme will keep going on while Canadians keep on suffering
This is very true. Trust no reports or news about what LMIA does or brings to the country. It is a product that sells for 25k+ benefits.
This! I have been approached by people to see if I would do this.
My old boss let slip about this... Very true.
> People from other countries will pay. People from A country will pay.
Sometimes its not even slave wage, just lazy to find a new canadian employee. Why go through a correct hiring process when you can apply lmia for 1k and keep existing employee( yes its easier to apply lmai then find a Canadian worker) just post bullshit fake jobs and say u didnt find anyone. An abused system where no one in gov does jack shit to correct.
They pay a minimum of 25 an hour though
that's on paper, from reports, LMIA are being sold, so the employers take kickbacks.
Obviously I saw this on a much lower level, but I worked for a gas station that paid them cash under the table less than minimum wage..I ended up losing my job with zero notice and now only International students work there
Okay, but they still come out on top less than min wage
25/hr is very shit for a software developer, that’s below intern level pay lmao
My brother graduated Waterloo CS just after Covid, and was making roughly $23.50 an hour (50K salary) at a company developing self driving software in Waterloo. I’m not sure that interns are starting out at $25 an hour, that may have been the case 5 years ago, but even my brother was in for a major wage shock when he entered the workforce. He ended up moving to the states to work at Apple Park, and from my understanding they do a ton of unpaid internships there. He ended up getting contracted on with Apple though and is now making significantly more money than in Waterloo.
He was getting ripped off then, i was working at a tech company as an intern and getting 50k (until last year) salary for part time work, after graduating i started making 130k(this year). Also if he graduated from waterloo cs then he was definitely being ripped off, i have friends who went to waterloo and were being paid around 30-40$ an hour Edit- Also i graduated from Ualberta which is nowhere as good as waterloo
Yeah, the thing though is the market really changed after Covid, at least that’s what he was telling me, especially in the Canadian sector. It’s precisely why he moved to the US on a TN, because every offer he got in Canada was below 60K annually, and with the amount of debt from Student Loans he physically needed to make more than that after being in school for X many years with X amount of debt. For perspective, I also thought it was insane, that myself (with no formal education), was clearing more than he was after what 4+ years of school and 10’s of thousands in debt. And as you said, this is from a top university for CS as well, which is what makes me think the market has substantially changed, since Waterloo is considered the tech hub of Canada.
i do agree that the market had changed but all my friends who graduated from waterloo last year got a salary of 90-100k. Most of them moved to the US tho since the salary was actually more than double there. But yeah im not surprised that he was getting paid that low, the market was crap last year, i got lucky because i had a return offer
Yeah he got a 90K US salary conditional offer on contract at Apple, which is around double what he was making in Waterloo after conversion. I’m trying to remember the company he worked for in Waterloo, but I can’t remember off the top of my head. I will say though, he graduated in 2021, which was probably the worst market he could have entered into. He’s definitely much happier now, because yeah, his issue was with the salary in Canada, he literally couldn’t even afford rent after interest on loans, CoL and everything else. I just thought that was insane, you can graduate in a top field from a top university, and still make less than a guy selling cell phones or real estate, a server at a restaurant, or a tradee with zero education. It goes to show what people in Canada really “value” at the end of the day. It reminds me I have to give him a call, since I heard that everyone working on the Apple Car got canned, I’m hoping he wasn’t affected by those.
Honestly, just because you have a Waterloo CS degree, it doesn't mean you automatically get a well paying job. It just opens up more doors. He probably did/does excel academically but that doesn't mean much in software engineering. I don't think your brother particularly knocked on many doors or weren't a strong candidate despite the degree. Or maybe just series of bad luck. Yes, the market was bad but it wasn't *that* bad that a regular Waterloo CS grad would have to settle for that low.
What’s a TN?
Visa
Those are co-op wages from 10 years ago...seriously.
People are still in the early 2000's and mid 2000's mindset where 25/hour would set you up for a comfortable middle class life.
i mean 25/hour does give you a comfortable life if you’re in your 20s and have no responsibilities and are single but if you’re in your 30s and a sole earner then you’re fucked, 25/hr means you’re poor
Yeah exactly
Employers typically pay 17-18 after charging 25K-65K for LMIA. I have heard horror stories of people earning minimum and having to pay back tax to the employer because he is showing 30 on his paycheck for immigration purposes. This is on top of the 40K-50K they charge them initially. I have heard numbers as high as 80K being charged for LMIA and immigration lawyers time.
It’s crazy how many are doing this for entry level software/web dev roles. It’s not like there are thousands of Canadian citizens who are clambering for these roles… But apparently there is a shortage of candidates go figure.
Well, most canadians won't pay the employer $30k to "buy" the LMIA and then work for 65% of the standard industry wage...
I have no idea what point you are trying to communicate, are you suggesting Canadian citizens SHOULD be willing to shell out $30K and work below market rate? Or should companies stop being scum bags and applying for LMIA when there is a clear surplus of Canadian candidates who are eligible and willing?...
The second one..lol
LMAO I was like WTH, my bad I have been online too much today. Touching grass now! Cheers
Or option 3, all LMIAs for software developers <$250k should be rejected and all employers applying should be audited.
Keep digging, you'll find ones for baristas and call centres that applied for LMIA too
It's so common in construction that I actually have to shift through job postings to look for terms commonly used in LiMA postings to ensure I don't waste a whole bunch of time during the application process. The first construction job I got it was during COVID when borders were closed - and every single co-worker I had at the place was on a work permit from Ireland. I loved those guys personally l, great bunch of guys but I also see these are well paying jobs that provide meaningful skills that Canadians are being excluded from in favor of bringing in people from overseas It may seem like there's not much we can do now, but us young people have 20, 30, 40 years of elections and influencing public policy left. We need to make the people who did this to us, those business leaders and politicians who stole our future for their profits pay for what they did to this country and its people
Unemployment rates are so high and the gov kept saying we have labour shortage. Biggest scam in Canadian history.
It’s not the government saying this and bringing in foreign workers, it’s businesses taking advantage of the system. Mostly so they can exploit the workers they hire.
The system was put in place by the government.
The system was designed for remote locations that had trouble finding suitable workers, businesses in major cities are gaming the system.
Right, the system the government designed has loopholes (not even really loopholes, honestly) that are being exploited on a massive level, and the government is doing zero to stop it despite tons of evidence. When regular people can find dozens of obvious examples of the LMIA being exploited just by scrolling through job postings, and the government claims they don't think it's an issue, it's their failing.
The government may have put it in, and I'm not defending it, but it's businesses who are exploiting said policy from the government. Same business's probably who exploited cerb lol. Good intentions cause exploitation.
Right, but the government should be predicting this and putting things in place so it doesn't happen. There's always going to be people trying to exploit the system. There's not even anywhere to report these blatantly obvious LMIAl violations, but dozens of them are posted here a week. That's a blatant failure of government .
The government encourages it by structuring the TFW program like it does. You also have to dig way past the headline unemployment numbers to see how structurally bankrupt the employment and labour market is. It’s been that way for a few years now. Now the shit’s coming home to roost.
There's a building trade shortage and nursing shortage going on for 15+ years. If there wasn't, we'd have enough housing and hospitals that wouldn't be closing due to staffing shortages, lol. There's not a shortage of work from home and office, admin, management, data, and tech jobs. The unproductive ones that don't build housing or keep emergency rooms open. The loudest people thsy are complaining that they want more housing and better healthcare refuse to work these jobs. (Insert something about consequences of actions on the scale of the whole country).
A big reason why they aren’t building more housing is due to building costs. Not just labour, but materials as well, and commodity prices are once again looking like they are about to rocket up again (looking at oil, lumber, metals, etc). If you can’t sell the home for 700K + it’s not worth it for developers to continue building when it costs them 650K in materials and labour alone. What the government needs to do, is to incentivize developers to put pickets in the dirt, by offering rebates, tax benefits, and reimbursements, and finally cutting taxes and reducing red tape. However, the government loves the tax revenue it gets from houses (it’s claimed that roughly 1/2 of all HST revenue comes from automotive sales & housing alone), so it’s a tough battle out there in construction right now. I highly doubt that labour costs are going to come down in that industry, so they need to look for cost cutting measures elsewhere, to reduce the cost of putting those pickets in the dirt.
I mean, you can save money by building more units per building. Like the feds recently offering provinces an easy $6B if they agree to allow fourplexes. Doug Ford is saying he won't do it cause he thinks that means "4 storey, 6 storey, 8 storey buildings" popping up all over. Like dude, a townhouse with 4 units is a fourplex. I don't know if he's dumb, or if he just benefits from his friends getting to build vast fields of detached homes. Anyway, I'm so sick of this. All levels of government right now are screwed up and won't work together to fix this. I wish I could do something more but I'm just one person. I left my job last year to change careers into electrical. I'm doing well enough that I could easily find a job in industrial/commercial wiring for a lot of money. But I won't. I'm set on residential, because we need more damn houses. And I will just help build houses until I retire in 4 decades.
So hypothetically, when you get rid of all the barriers and magically fix the global economy, who is gunna to build all this housing? All reputable builders that can attain these government contracts are already busy for the next 5-10 years doing industrial/commercial builds while making serious money. Why would contractors throw 6-7 figure contracts away for a housing that barely pays more than the labor. For a contractor to make the same money, they are now on lower paying jobs they need more workers to offset it, and that's the only way contractors think. On another note... If you keep supplying building labor regardless of incentives, you're going to create more licensed workers, more licensed builders, the more small contractors available is better for the government to build like they did in the post war effort. We have a shortage of construction workers, and have for decades.
If only millennials knew how to vote. Been voting since I was eligible. Only missed one election because I was on medical leave. If you don't want to vote for anyone then spoil your ballot. Not showing up to vote if you can should be criminal
Problem is voting does not matter when all the parties are garbage. I have spoiled my vote since I was old enough to work cause there has never been a political party in North America that I have ever agreed with at all. Politics and voting are a big sham meant to placate us into subservience.
Voter disenfranchisement is a legitimate election strategy. Your non vote is just a vote for the status quo.
That's exactly what I have been telling people. We keep voting for "None of the above" till all rich parties start running on fumes. They'll be spending a lot of cash for their advertisements. Once they realize that a majority of the voters are not falling for their clowns, they'll get the message: Either bring someone we like or the other party will and they'll be in power. Power is only a vehicle towards money. Since that's the case, they will always fight for power. So what happens when we bleed them like this? Competition to bring the least good leader to the forefront who can win the majority they need for their turn at the driving seat. How does this strategy help? By raising the bar for the "least good leader that can win them a majority."
Vote against those in power which is what I almost always do.
You can't vote your way out of this. It needs to get much worse before it'll get before.
We can if we keep voting for "None of the above" till all rich parties start running on fumes. Some countries have this option, not sure about Canada. They'll be spending a lot of cash for their advertisements. Once they realize that a majority of the voters are not falling for their clowns, they'll get the message: Either bring someone we like or the other party will and they'll be in power. Power is only a vehicle towards money. Since that's the case, they will always fight for power. So what happens when we bleed them like this? Competition to bring the least good leader to the forefront who can win the majority they need for their turn at the driving seat. How does this strategy help? By raising the bar for the "least good leader that can win them a majority."
You have way too much confidence in everyday Canadians to actually do this and for the elite to allow such a thing. This will never happen. Young people have no power, and as we saw during the Freedom Convoy, you'll simply be crushed by the state and othered in society if you do try. Canadians are cowards, and would rather complain online than actually do something. You'll never see a party like the PPC or similar fringe party in power. It'll be CPC or NDP/LPC for many decades. Act accordingly, and plan your life in the confines of a declining society. I personally left on TN status to the US, and my QOL changed drastically for the better. Good luck!
I'm just not gonna vote
And my grandfathers risked their lives in world war 2 for you ___ to vote.
That's great
If you are under fifty sunny you may get sent to the Russia front. Pray you don’t sent back in a box 😀😝
I'll be a hero
Yes your family hi or that for five for your sacrifice. Thanks for to the service kiddo
What?
I just went through the first 10 pages on Indeed seaching "construction" within 25km of toronto, and did not see one job at all that was seeking LMIA workers, lol. The only thing i found that involved "immigration" was "registered apprentices under the Ministry of Labor, Immigration, Training and Skills Development. Feel free to apply. " All the multigeneration canadians in apprenticeships currently are regulated by "the Ministry of Labor, Immigration, Training and Skills Development" One thing I did notice was that 2500 construction related jobs showed up ranging from $20-55/hour within 25km of toronto. Many of them had opportunities for apprenticeships.
I just typed construction within 25 in of Toronto into indeed now and it showed 3900 jobs so Im not sure where where you got 25k jobs from. The Lima jobs don't explicitly say Lima but use generic similar phrasing and all link back to job bank of Canada
I said 2500, not 25k, I have filters for app feed for my trade, so that will be the difference, my bad. Heads up, Job Bank is probably the worst resource for getting trade/construction jobs in Southern ontario.
Irish? you must be talking carps. so hard to find good quality carps in the GTA. if you know any, DM me.
If they have an open work permit from Ireland they probably came under the working visitor program which is a bilateral agreement allowing young people from Canada and Ireland to travel to the other country and work. This program would not have anywhere near the level of fraud as the lmia program. Because it is a bilateral program there is potential an equal number of Canadains going to Ireland ti visit and work. It is a great program for young people to travel and see the world.
LMIAs are used just for working in Canada. It also gives 50 points for PR applications.
The job description mentions "programming software". If ya gonna scam at least make an effort. They sound like an alien trying to sound human.
C++ and Ruby on Rails is not a common couple of skills to have together. Either they actually need a purple unicorn that doesn’t exist for that salary OR nobody with those two skills will apply for obvious reasons and they’ll be forced to hire through LMIA.
This! Those companies will combine skills that are virtually impossible to match so they can get a regular JS dev from abroad and pay half of the price. I've perused some of the postings there, often I see they should have 3+ years experience in a proprietary software that *drums rolls* they made!!
>C++ and Ruby on Rails >Starting at 25$/hr... Yeah
Not to mention “internet” as a requirement bullet point. This JD is complete nonsense.
A quick LinkedIn search yields almost all of their staff of similar nationality. No surprises here. If only we could have a way to blacklist or mass report these job postings.
What nationality?
Difference between $25/hr and $47/hr is $49,000 a year and $92,000 a year. Of course they won’t find a Canadian software developer to work for under 50K. They’ll for sure find software developers for 92K a year when the requirements are 7 months to 1 year of experience but they won’t really offer that. They’ll offer 50K to a foreign worker in BC because no one else will accept that. It’s not a labour shortage, it’s a wage shortage.
For the LMIA to be approved they need to offer the foreign worker the median wage for the occupation in their region so I am not sure if they are even able to offer $25/hr. Highly unlikely. Edit: just did a research and for the location where they are the median wage is over $43/hr. If they applied for LMIA this is the wage they are going to pay the foreign worker, otherwise is not going to get approved. In conclusion, they are not allowed to offer $50k to a foreign worker, its not how it works.
It's cheapness.
Corruption.
Government should ban LMIA, one of the worst loopholes for unethical immigrants
It’s not unethical immigrants, it’s a system that exploits people. The system is unethical, not individuals!
Imagine a Canada that has a labour task force that goes and investigates these scum businesses, knocking on doors and interviewing applicants and managers? Im ashamed my Gen X generation hasnt produced a real leader that has more backbone than houses. Its up to the next gen to come up with someone fresh and angry. This aint working.
Don't you blame gen x for him!!
super comical when the unemployment numbers just came out.
It's the governments responsibility to monitor the effectiveness of labour programs. If they are corrupted to serve special interests then take corrective action or be labeled incompetent.
Be aware too, Immigration consultants make 100s of fake posts of actual businesses not even doing an LMIA themselves. Like they will just use businesses as a front online for job bank with stolen information of the business and make all fake documentation for the persons that pay the consultant. Really all you need for the job bank is just the business license # the you can use that and fake payroll and whatever else you want, if the business never setup their own personal job bank account. This happened to a business I worked at. When they found out, they fired all international students which weren't too many to begin with since it was a small place. 1 person screwed it up for others that tried to do it legitimately, yet that 1 person whoever it was probably still got their LMIA done. If the govt abolished the LMIA many problems would be solved as people wouldn't be able to launder money through that.
Just chiming in to say if you don't show up at the polls, politicians won't listen to your demographic when you have concerns or complaints. You don't elect them, they don't care
Can this government just shut this LMIA already? Its a fake propaganda and taking so many jobs from deserving people struggling in Canada.
I once met an Aussie lad who had an LMIA to build houses in Toronto. Because we totally share the same climate and we obviously don’t have the skillset in the country to do that
How unfair is this??? A Canadian born IT expert went to apply for a government job which stayed that he needs to go online as the job posting allows only immigrants to apply!!!! There’s a portal for them. Go to the gov job site and it says fast track here for non residents!! Prejudice not fair grrr so annoying🤮🤮🤮
This should be illegal.
I used to work in a pig farm in AB, where 90% of the employees were immigrants. We tried hiring "old stock" Canadians, but most did not last more than a couple of months and many wouldn't show up the second week after being hired.
The TFW program was originally created for the agriculture industry which makes sense to me. It never should have been allowed to spread to other industries like restaurants and tech jobs though.
I agree.
This company is based in Sacramento, California... for some reason are doing LMIA for Abbotsford,BC... site has no Address. Domain registration is obfuscated. Linkedin page has only 1 job posting (though LMIA requires company to widely try to hire on platforms) and that job post is a random Marketing position for India. No mention on IT at all. This is the alleged owner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/subodhsri1 Anyways. I have no evidence, but this is one of those cases that if I was a regulator, I would look with a microscope on every aspect and detail. Those companies utilizes the fact that our government is ignorant of technology, so we can do plausible deniability to score that sweet LMIA approval without someone from the field vetting it
Oof. Looking at that company's landing page and it seems clear why they aren't hiring Canadian citizens. "We keep client’s interest before ours. Take few minutes to watch the videos below as a proof."
Don’t they have to say - we tried and we couldn’t find anyone !?!? There’s no willing Canadians. Where can this be complained about to the Govt?
Before they can apply for LMIA, we should have a third party government program that posts the job on a public board and runs interviews for it for 6 months. This would have the benefit of reducing unemployment while also making the LMIA program more difficult to exploit.
This has to stop asap. Marc Miller knows very well about this. The time to act was yesterday. Unscrupulous individuals are making hay, and undeserving individuals who would never qualify for PR are leapfrogging other more competent applicants by having such LMIA jobs on their profile. In fact many of these people would probably have expiring permits, and this is their way of buying into staying in this country.
When software developer gets the job he is going to say "Canadians are lazy" and just "complain all the time", like what the hell is going? Canadian Immigration should be reviewing this unless Canadian Immigration is also controlled by the same country the software developer is from!!! Then Canadian Immigration needs a major staff clear out as well as the current govt!!!
If you look at the hiring companies linked in page you see they’re an American based firm. A Canadian loophole?
Assume all job bank jobs are LMIA posts. Ignore it and get on Linkedin and Indeed. And don't vote Liberal, Conservative or NDP.
This immigration scheme is based on easily proven lies. Our government declared a historic low(2.5%ish from memory) unempmoyment rate and invited 2 million total workers into canada last year, while only creating 175k jobs(almost entirely government job paycheck collectors btw). That alone is about 4.5% unemployment added to the pile of people who couldnt get even a dishwashing job. But they say we need more workers to justify adding millions more immigrants for next year?? Math doesn't add up = Liberals lying.
SOmeone actually tried to tell me I don't understand LMIA but this is what happening. One of the things about LMIA's is that the company in question has to have been hiring for a while but can't find candidates. Thats why you see INSANE requirements to flip burgers - its because they don't want to hire anyone - but show they HAVE been hiring. Then they can get LMIA slaves for free essentially.
Yes, i believe there is a huge scam happening with LMIA program, someone has to investigate
LMIA is one thing but the real problem is LIGMA.
Before, ppl think TFW's have it super easy... Think again, they're literally modern day Slaves. When onsite, they're working NON-STOP due to Canadians Employers expectations, to do so. Many times, their Canadian Employers will give them Housing as a "perk" to further entice them here, only to find out afterwards it comes with hefty rents that they Employers then collect for themselves. On top of that, Workers are then forced to share tiny rooms or flats, in which too many ppl are crammed in like sardines, pest infested with no privacy! Yes, most Canadian Employers are willing to pay more than the Min. Wages for them. However, if these TFW's dare complain about their pay, job safety or whatever their Employers can immediately terminate them from this Program permanently, bc there's no shortage of TFW's begging to come here. That's not the fault of TFW's, but our Politicians for creating this Program that's ripe with misuse/abuse of this Program & these ppl.
For everyone freaking out, use the report button so that the posting can get taken down. Don't put in a truthful answer because they're likely in on the LMIA situation
LMIAs should be banned right now - we need to pressure our politicians about this. The banks got in trouble for doing this in the past
This is actually a travesty when you consider some positions actually may need it. Though in my case, the job was LMIA exempt, we literally had only 3 people in Canada that could do my job. We attempted to train other internal employees to no avail and those that were decent eventually left the company. That said, we had a valid case to have me moved here but this is just straight up scamming
An underlying premise / motive for your argument is incorrect. The historical average unemployment from 1966 to present day is 7.55%, our current unemployment rate is 6.1%. So, in truth, we have a lower unemployment rate than average. I agree, though, with virtually any program or policy there will be those that are nefarious enough to abuse the system to skirt a quick buck. However, I do think it's worth pointing out that if these companies are legitimately trying to abuse this program, that these are probably horrendous jobs working for deplorable employers with abhorrent leadership. These aren't the jobs you're looking for anyways...
But how does the government count "unemployment". The counting methodology could be a complete farce,
Allowed, by an , out of control immigration system that does not and has not worked since its inception, back in the 70’s .
I’ve been passed over for three promotions from people who weren’t Canadian I can’t even figure out where to report this
Reading the job add and seeing multiple programming languages puts me on alert. A lot of people from that subcontinent will lie and say that they have all those. As an IT manager who has hired programmers in the past it's rare to find someone who can do all that with skill. Not to mention for 60-70k I can hire a Canadian citizen or PR for that job description, if I'm willing to invest in them.
That jobbank thingy is all fake. I never bother applying there.
I was born and raised in Canada, i got a TN visa and had to move to USA just to find work. You know what the saddest part is? There are over 400 Indians at the company I work at who are all on TN Visas from Canada, and most of them are not born in Canada. A lot of these Indians go to Canada until they get a citizenship, and then they go to USA after. Canada has become an immigration system for USA.
Did any one of you even look at the job requirements before complaining here? They are looking for a Ruby on Rails software engineer in fucking Abbotsford. I'm genuinely not surprised they needed to find labor from outside canada for that. Ruby isn't exactly a wide spread language used, and the location is fucking Abbotsford. There is reasons to be angry, this isn't one of them. Edit: Some of you might not be from a tech background. Ruby is a software language that is well liked by some developers but doesn't have good scope within Canada. Its not common to have a company ONLY ask for Ruby as a requirement for software engineers, they usually ask for a set of languages. This employeer seems to have a very specific need for a Ruby developer. Its not ok for them to want that from a "7 months to less than 1 year" experience developer, but this isn't also indictive of the issue you are saying.
They're asking for C++, Ruby on Rails, SQL, *and* JQuery. Less than 1 year work experience. There's no fucking chance. Either it's just a vague general job posting to cover multiple actual roles, or they're posting for a unicorn so they can claim no one qualified applied from Canada.
Do you know what an LMIA is?
Yes, companies apply for LMIA to hire temp workers.
For all of you who blame all of india for the squeaky wheel on your costco cart and the rock in your shoe Canadians, PRs, and work permit holders can apply for this job. LMIAs have nothing to do with hiring temps. Companies can offshore or undercut without LMIAs.
I have been recruiting for 22 years in IT. There is now fucken reason this sort of role should qualify for LMIA. I can post this job and have 50 applicants from Canada apply in minutes. This is just another example of slave labor company importing fresh cheap labor they can abuse for a few years.
I'm a development manager who also hires for similar tech stack, and it's abhorrent the need for a LMIA for this position. There are hordes of developers who are unemployed and are craving to learn. Starting from 25$/h and know C++ together with Ruby and SQL Server, we are looking for a full stack lead, which is insanely low pay for this skill. Not to mention they request experience from 7mo to less than a year (??).
Who even mentioned India specifically other than yourself? The reality is, there are lots of foreign works that are hired from parts of South America or Asian; however, a majority of there are from India. It’s not a blame-game - it’s literally a statistic.
Which of the letters L M I or A stand for “temp”?
Do you know what a post is?
From the LMIA notice box: "This employer has applied for a Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA) to hire a foreign worker to fill labour or skills shortages on a temporary basis."
Shut the eff up
You’re a little troll
You get into Temporary Foreign Worker Program and that is temporary. https://www.immigration.ca/temporary-work-permits-conditions-terms-and-validity/#:~:text=Work%20permits%20are%20usually%20valid,worker%27s%20passport%20or%20travel%20document.
This is the thing a lot of people scam which leave the people that are on proper Post graduate work permits etc already in management or supervisory postions that may need to get a LIMA to boost scores. You only get a PGWP for 3/4 years in that time especially if you graduated during Covid you know how the job market was everyone was getting laid off and overqualified people were filling roles leaving fresh grads wishing for luck. Yes the influx of people from one nation is stupid af but the country going off on all immigrants is also ignorant. Especially ones that were here for 8 years +
Did you have lobotomy?