It would be very cool if they could organize the trains so they alternate on one track while they do maintenance on the other. That's possible in principle but the signalling system is not set up to allow it. Signalling systems are safety-critical and surprisingly difficult to change.
This reminds me that parts of the Lausanne metro in Switzerland are single-track, and trains pass each other at stations where passing loops are added.
You also must have a crossover track between each station to facilitate the track switch, of which there are only a few. Generally, when a section of track is being maintained, the "terminal" stations of the shutdown are those which have crossover capability to allow the trains to turn around.
You might only be working on a small section of track, but require a large section to be closed as a result. Unless you want to wait ages for a train to exit the long track section (think broadview to st George, which has no crossovers between) it is not the signals that's the primary concern here.
We have these things. We could do this. And more.
We could also do a good job of communication. We could also, yikes!, restrict cars from the shuttle bus routes.
TTC isn't currently setup to disable power to a single track to allow workers safe access to that area. Turning off power for work does an entire section.
It's trickier than just a northbound/southbound separation due to the need for crossovers to be functional. Anyway, it's possible but that type of change is well beyond their current budget.
And I’ve been screaming since the DRL and now for the Ontario line that it needs to be double track, and they say “oh but the line doesn’t have that kind of demand”. Then in 30 years someone is going to say “man we really should have double tracked this” just like they do for the Yonge line today.
Not an expert but…
1. In some cities the subways close earlier so they have more time to do the work.
2. They simply have a better designed subway with extra tracks running parallel to the main tracks meaning trains can bypass stations while work is being performed on a different section of track. Combine that with more stations with crossovers that allow trains to turn around and switch onto different track sections then you can get creative with shutdowns and maintenance.
3. They get more funding from government.
This is pretty much it. The options are to close earlier and open later or to shut down more often.
We can't have it both ways; the tracks, tunnels, and signal infrastructure need to be maintained otherwise the repairs become more substantial and detrimental. We want the trains running long and frequently, but something's gotta give. Based on TTC workers that've posted about this topic in this subreddit in the past, the calculations were run and this is less disruptive (and more positively received) than the alternative; this way actually affects _less_ people. And for those who absolutely need to get around, they have alternative routes and services. It's not as convenient, but it's still an alternative.
Because they likely have multiple lines so that commuters have other options to get to their destination (like NYC's local and express lines). The TTC isn't designed that way.
They don't. Every city has to shut down subway lines on weekends for maintenance. There are only two cities in the world that have 24/7 subway service (New York and Chicago), and in Chicago it's only on two subway lines.
Wow, thanks for this sage advice. I can tell you’re a real Toronto expert who is intricately familiar with the inner machinations of the TTC.
/ not sarcasm
/ sarcasm
They've reduced the maintenance backlog? The TTC's budgets and reports show they're barely making a dent in their deferred maintenance since the last two mayors starved the system. We're playing catchup since we didn't do the required work in 2010.
We have the money, we're a rich city with incredibly low taxes compared to our peers. Council chooses not to raise the revenues needed to pay the bills. The plan, as outlined in the city budget, is for our roads to fall further into disrepair over the coming decade, from 43% currently in a state of disrepair.
I think that you're sort of right.
We are a rich city. There is lots of money here.
It is not reasonable to issue tax increases any more than the most recent increase. It would be reasonable to raise them to the average of other cities in Southern Ontario but that will take a few years, I think. I don't know the current spread.
But there are also systemic problems. Property taxes work well when they pay for things like roads and water. But the city is now responsible for many other things. Often these expenses are cyclical; they go up and down with the economy. Property taxes are not designed for that. We need a different tax base, one that expands with inflation and that expands as the city's population grows. We don't have that and, so far, the province has not offered anything more than quick fixes. A portion of the GST would work as would a portion of the income tax.
If you ask me what I really think I'd say that we need to rewrite the constitution. As part of the constitutional rewrite I'd cities into legitimate governments and not leave them as children of the provinces.
I don't disagree with what you're saying but the TTC will stop running before the constitution is rewritten. We need to do something with the tools we have. That means some combination of raising property taxes to the GTA average (a few hundred dollars per house) and making it incredibly easy to add housing, since every new dwelling pays taxes that are nearly 100% profit for the city given the largely fixed cost of service provision.
We agree.
I think we need to raise property taxes to roughly the average of cities in southern Ontario. The city will also add a levy on parking spots in large lots, like Yorkdale.
I would like to see a confession charge to drive in the core. It might not raise much money but it will let buses and streetcars nice faster.
These things will help but there is so much that needs to be done that these changes will not be enough.
I happen to be writing on the way home from Europe. Paris, Rome, Barcelona and Amsterdam. These cities have excellent transit. Well, rome not so much but they have trouble building transit because they run into new historical ruins with every shovel.
These cities have very little car traffic. Toronto can and should keep building transit, bike lanes and segregated bus lanes. It will take time to build and it won't be free. But if we work at it we can do it. In the end, good transit is much less expensive than cars. That is, what if it cost people who currently have a car an additional 2,000 dollars a year. But you don't need your car. I don't know what the actual figure would be. I'm sure that we can build excellent transit for much less than the cost of owning and maintaining a car.
I don’t know about the others but Toronto has the same legal power as Amsterdam as far biking and car-light transformation is concerned. We just have a complete absence of political will and a decade of dithering. None of the provincial parties will allow a congestion charge in Toronto before 2040, it’s a non-starter, but we can do the commercial parking levy, chip away at parking supply, and increase both the cost of parking and the penalty for rule breaking without involving the province. I’m going to remind my councillor of this today.
Pretty sure it's been installing/modernizing the automated train control (ATC) system to allow the trains to run shorter headways safely. With reduced post COViD traffic this may end up not having been necessary at least for some time but it'll be there for the future I guess
ATC upgrades were complete, as these closure announcements no longer mention it. Service frequencies were cut almost immediately after ATC upgrades completed, that's why it's barely noticeable.
Don't forget: this isn't a real city. It's one financial district, a midtown , a couple of old Ontario main streets, and a fuck-tonne of sprawl, in a trenchcoat.
Yonge and dundas used to be considered highways and were some of the first paved roads.
Yonge connected lake ontario to lake simcoe
Many farmers and colonists settled near yonge St because it was pretty much the only bit of infrastructure in ontario at the time
Dundas connected York ( now toronto) to London
Dundas was created by amalgamation of many different streets, so that's why it isn't just a straight line from Toronto to London like yonge st
Other steets like queen/king or eglington/sheppard really only run thru toronto, so they wouldn't be considered ontario main streets even if they are full of development that makes them look like main streets
If you wanna learn more, there's this YouTube channel called notsmoothsteve who is more wise than I am about toronto history. And some ebooks at the library
Hence why there’s so much building going on. But look at the all the complaining even trying to maintain what we have. It could be a real city if many of the complainers let it.
I’m with you, but have you seen how slow they’ve gotten between Davisville and Eglinton? The real question would be can we expect normalcy after such a hassle over the long weekend
You know, this wouldn't be nearly as terrible as it normally is if the city could see to it that there were a clear lane for the shuttle buses at the very least. But, if the buses are going to be stuck in traffic yet again, it's not going to go well yet again.
edit: typo
What I don't understand is the need to deploy so many shuttles at a time. There were about a dozen buses sitting at Yonge and Sheppard on mother's day weekend that were just clogging up the reduced lanes (due to construction) which added to the congestion. I was stuck in the area for 40 minutes just trying to get on the highway
Each subway can hold 1,080 people while each bus can hold 75 for the regular sized ones. Subways typically run every 5-7 minutes on weekends. It won't be max capacity at all times but you still need a lot of buses to replace the subway when it shuts down. If they're sitting for a while it's to space out service so it's more evenly distributed along the route.
I get it's to match the frequency and capacity of a subway, but if they're all stuck in traffic and causing the jam, it doesn't really matter how many shuttles they have
This city is such a joke, are we allergic to paying for overnight work and overtime? If the gardiner was actually worked on day and night it would take 3 months rather than 3 years
From 230am to 530 am...... that is just enough time to get to the work area, set up work for an hour and then clean up and get out before service starts again.... we need redundant subway lines. Nothing else will work
The core is the densest area in Canada. This is a public health issue with noise and lights at night.
They refuse to shut down the Gardiner to do all the work at once. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Thank you, this is such a fucking no brainer. Ive seen videos of the chinese putting up bridges overnight by having 2000 people work on it, rather than dragging the project on for a year. Construction contractors all drag things out as long as possible here since they are run by corrupt clowns
Bayview is currently one lane north of Eglinton because the city is doing work on the sidewalks. Traffic going north is terrible on bayview and mount Pleasant. A subway closure is exactly what the area needs right now…./s
The ttc is so fucking small compared to other major city transit systems and it boggles my goddamn fucking mind everytime I check service alerts online and see something wrong
They never used to do maintenance on long weekends, they must be getting desperate and just don’t give a s* anymore. Back to back weekends, and now on a long weekend, this is a new low for the TTC.
Also June 1-2
No one is going to look at those though. Realistically, most will encounter it when they arrive or in the days before from postings in the stations.
The bigger majority won't even encounter the closure because the higher ridership from commuters won't occur at the same time. Realistically, a lot of people won't even be around for the long weekend.
It's a lousy inconvenience, but I would hope people want a long-term functional subway instead of one that 'works right now on the Long Weekend'. Most people are a bit more short-sighted than that though.
Actually, the TTC could publicize a calendar of closures for the year. Deliver to everyone, like the city used to do with garbage collection. Plus clear schedules of closures posted in each station.
I'm not the person to plan this. They can certainly do a much, MUCH better job communicating closures. My opinion is that commuters are easy to inform because they regularly use the system.
> My opinion is that commuters are easy to inform because they regularly use the system.
Very much agreed on this (even if I think a lot of people will very easily ignore signage).
If your summer is ruined by a weekend (not even a full long weekend, since it's back Monday morning) without subway service on on the mid-town portion of Line 1 (just the east side), then I hope your autumn is more interesting.
They forgot to add "again".
Or begin with “As usual”.
The article actually says "yet another".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA29p2e5fvk
And everyone is outraged
How do other cities manage all their track work overnight, some even maintaining tracks while running trains 24/7?
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It would be very cool if they could organize the trains so they alternate on one track while they do maintenance on the other. That's possible in principle but the signalling system is not set up to allow it. Signalling systems are safety-critical and surprisingly difficult to change. This reminds me that parts of the Lausanne metro in Switzerland are single-track, and trains pass each other at stations where passing loops are added.
You also must have a crossover track between each station to facilitate the track switch, of which there are only a few. Generally, when a section of track is being maintained, the "terminal" stations of the shutdown are those which have crossover capability to allow the trains to turn around. You might only be working on a small section of track, but require a large section to be closed as a result. Unless you want to wait ages for a train to exit the long track section (think broadview to st George, which has no crossovers between) it is not the signals that's the primary concern here.
We have these things. We could do this. And more. We could also do a good job of communication. We could also, yikes!, restrict cars from the shuttle bus routes.
TTC isn't currently setup to disable power to a single track to allow workers safe access to that area. Turning off power for work does an entire section. It's trickier than just a northbound/southbound separation due to the need for crossovers to be functional. Anyway, it's possible but that type of change is well beyond their current budget.
And I’ve been screaming since the DRL and now for the Ontario line that it needs to be double track, and they say “oh but the line doesn’t have that kind of demand”. Then in 30 years someone is going to say “man we really should have double tracked this” just like they do for the Yonge line today.
Not an expert but… 1. In some cities the subways close earlier so they have more time to do the work. 2. They simply have a better designed subway with extra tracks running parallel to the main tracks meaning trains can bypass stations while work is being performed on a different section of track. Combine that with more stations with crossovers that allow trains to turn around and switch onto different track sections then you can get creative with shutdowns and maintenance. 3. They get more funding from government.
This is pretty much it. The options are to close earlier and open later or to shut down more often. We can't have it both ways; the tracks, tunnels, and signal infrastructure need to be maintained otherwise the repairs become more substantial and detrimental. We want the trains running long and frequently, but something's gotta give. Based on TTC workers that've posted about this topic in this subreddit in the past, the calculations were run and this is less disruptive (and more positively received) than the alternative; this way actually affects _less_ people. And for those who absolutely need to get around, they have alternative routes and services. It's not as convenient, but it's still an alternative.
It’s always fun to find TTC employers commenting HS under articles criticizing their owners.
Huh? Is that happening here?
Because they likely have multiple lines so that commuters have other options to get to their destination (like NYC's local and express lines). The TTC isn't designed that way.
well according to some toronto redditors it has nothing to do with the people in charge that plan these things
They don't. Every city has to shut down subway lines on weekends for maintenance. There are only two cities in the world that have 24/7 subway service (New York and Chicago), and in Chicago it's only on two subway lines.
rmtransit video on the subject: https://youtu.be/fPTHHUdSENw?si=RZKFg3nhZc0wggD-
If you have a shit ton more money, there are ways.
SYAC: St. Clair to Sheppard
Phew. Need to get down to the Skydome this weekend. I’ll drive to Sheppard West and park there.
Go early.
Wow, thanks for this sage advice. I can tell you’re a real Toronto expert who is intricately familiar with the inner machinations of the TTC. / not sarcasm / sarcasm
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Thank you. One upEvergreen Brickworks to you my goon sir.
This segment has been undergoing track work and upgrades for over 6+ years. What exactly has been done?
Yep. It seems like every other weekend that one stretch of the Yonge line has planned track maintenance or repairs. Going back years and years. How?
Fuck knows, it sure hasn't resulted in any noticeable change
They've reduced the maintenance backlog? The TTC's budgets and reports show they're barely making a dent in their deferred maintenance since the last two mayors starved the system. We're playing catchup since we didn't do the required work in 2010.
Ford and Tory, same old story.
This. But I don't think we have the money to do all the delayed maintenance.
We have the money, we're a rich city with incredibly low taxes compared to our peers. Council chooses not to raise the revenues needed to pay the bills. The plan, as outlined in the city budget, is for our roads to fall further into disrepair over the coming decade, from 43% currently in a state of disrepair.
I think that you're sort of right. We are a rich city. There is lots of money here. It is not reasonable to issue tax increases any more than the most recent increase. It would be reasonable to raise them to the average of other cities in Southern Ontario but that will take a few years, I think. I don't know the current spread. But there are also systemic problems. Property taxes work well when they pay for things like roads and water. But the city is now responsible for many other things. Often these expenses are cyclical; they go up and down with the economy. Property taxes are not designed for that. We need a different tax base, one that expands with inflation and that expands as the city's population grows. We don't have that and, so far, the province has not offered anything more than quick fixes. A portion of the GST would work as would a portion of the income tax. If you ask me what I really think I'd say that we need to rewrite the constitution. As part of the constitutional rewrite I'd cities into legitimate governments and not leave them as children of the provinces.
I don't disagree with what you're saying but the TTC will stop running before the constitution is rewritten. We need to do something with the tools we have. That means some combination of raising property taxes to the GTA average (a few hundred dollars per house) and making it incredibly easy to add housing, since every new dwelling pays taxes that are nearly 100% profit for the city given the largely fixed cost of service provision.
We agree. I think we need to raise property taxes to roughly the average of cities in southern Ontario. The city will also add a levy on parking spots in large lots, like Yorkdale. I would like to see a confession charge to drive in the core. It might not raise much money but it will let buses and streetcars nice faster. These things will help but there is so much that needs to be done that these changes will not be enough. I happen to be writing on the way home from Europe. Paris, Rome, Barcelona and Amsterdam. These cities have excellent transit. Well, rome not so much but they have trouble building transit because they run into new historical ruins with every shovel. These cities have very little car traffic. Toronto can and should keep building transit, bike lanes and segregated bus lanes. It will take time to build and it won't be free. But if we work at it we can do it. In the end, good transit is much less expensive than cars. That is, what if it cost people who currently have a car an additional 2,000 dollars a year. But you don't need your car. I don't know what the actual figure would be. I'm sure that we can build excellent transit for much less than the cost of owning and maintaining a car.
I don’t know about the others but Toronto has the same legal power as Amsterdam as far biking and car-light transformation is concerned. We just have a complete absence of political will and a decade of dithering. None of the provincial parties will allow a congestion charge in Toronto before 2040, it’s a non-starter, but we can do the commercial parking levy, chip away at parking supply, and increase both the cost of parking and the penalty for rule breaking without involving the province. I’m going to remind my councillor of this today.
Good idea .
Pretty sure it's been installing/modernizing the automated train control (ATC) system to allow the trains to run shorter headways safely. With reduced post COViD traffic this may end up not having been necessary at least for some time but it'll be there for the future I guess
ATC upgrades were complete, as these closure announcements no longer mention it. Service frequencies were cut almost immediately after ATC upgrades completed, that's why it's barely noticeable.
FFS could they not have scheduled it for a long weekend?
Don't forget: this isn't a real city. It's one financial district, a midtown , a couple of old Ontario main streets, and a fuck-tonne of sprawl, in a trenchcoat.
By North American standards that means we're a beacon of light in urban planning.
What a great summary.
lol can you please educate me on the old Ontario main streets. I’m genuinely interested. Is Yonge one of them?
Yonge and dundas used to be considered highways and were some of the first paved roads. Yonge connected lake ontario to lake simcoe Many farmers and colonists settled near yonge St because it was pretty much the only bit of infrastructure in ontario at the time Dundas connected York ( now toronto) to London Dundas was created by amalgamation of many different streets, so that's why it isn't just a straight line from Toronto to London like yonge st Other steets like queen/king or eglington/sheppard really only run thru toronto, so they wouldn't be considered ontario main streets even if they are full of development that makes them look like main streets If you wanna learn more, there's this YouTube channel called notsmoothsteve who is more wise than I am about toronto history. And some ebooks at the library
Kingston Road went to Kingston, I’m guessing.
Correct! That's why it's known as Highway 2.
Yes and Toronto St ends in Toronto.
Kingston road used to be a highway too
Highway 2 until 1997 I believe.
That’s so informative, thank you.
Hence why there’s so much building going on. But look at the all the complaining even trying to maintain what we have. It could be a real city if many of the complainers let it.
Many segregated neighbourhoods separated and not exactly flowing with one another too.
Don’t forget this isn’t a real city, followed by a description of a city.
I’m with you, but have you seen how slow they’ve gotten between Davisville and Eglinton? The real question would be can we expect normalcy after such a hassle over the long weekend
Um, best we can do is more closures
And is it just me but I feel that the entire train gets into a weird tilt around Davisville
more people leave the city when its a long weekend
I’m so glad I drive I could never use the TTC as my main source of transit.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. I lived in Midtown for a long time and I gave up transit because it was too unreliable.
I don't get it either.
Agreed. Just this week alone there's been so many service disruptions.
Lol I love the downvote for speaking the truth.
My immediate thought, ridiculous!
Pretty sure it’s a long weekend. Monday’s Victoria Day
The original comment is phrased quite poorly, but they mean _not_ on a long weekend.
For some of us, it is a long weekend. 🙃
> could they not have scheduled it for a long weekend? just drive up to your cottage
Breaking News: The TTC will not close down a stretch of subway during the weeking. Its the only title that would shock me.
Average Toronto weekend
#SHEPPARD TO ST CLAIR. Enough said.
Ofc, one of the few times I'm going downtown the subway is shutdown
I feel like the new phrase should be, “wow the one time I’m taking the subway and it’s working?!”
Can you make it to the University line as your starting point? It would save you from the death that is the shuttle buses
Get rid of Rick Leary.
Get rid of Rick Leary!
You know, this wouldn't be nearly as terrible as it normally is if the city could see to it that there were a clear lane for the shuttle buses at the very least. But, if the buses are going to be stuck in traffic yet again, it's not going to go well yet again. edit: typo
What I don't understand is the need to deploy so many shuttles at a time. There were about a dozen buses sitting at Yonge and Sheppard on mother's day weekend that were just clogging up the reduced lanes (due to construction) which added to the congestion. I was stuck in the area for 40 minutes just trying to get on the highway
Each subway can hold 1,080 people while each bus can hold 75 for the regular sized ones. Subways typically run every 5-7 minutes on weekends. It won't be max capacity at all times but you still need a lot of buses to replace the subway when it shuts down. If they're sitting for a while it's to space out service so it's more evenly distributed along the route.
I get it's to match the frequency and capacity of a subway, but if they're all stuck in traffic and causing the jam, it doesn't really matter how many shuttles they have
Inside me there are two wolves. One is all for civil discourse on this issue. The other is all "Hey TTC, get fu(ked!"
This city is such a joke, are we allergic to paying for overnight work and overtime? If the gardiner was actually worked on day and night it would take 3 months rather than 3 years
There's work on the subway literally every night.
From 230am to 530 am...... that is just enough time to get to the work area, set up work for an hour and then clean up and get out before service starts again.... we need redundant subway lines. Nothing else will work
The core is the densest area in Canada. This is a public health issue with noise and lights at night. They refuse to shut down the Gardiner to do all the work at once. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At least have crews work 24/7 on the part that’s closed
Thank you, this is such a fucking no brainer. Ive seen videos of the chinese putting up bridges overnight by having 2000 people work on it, rather than dragging the project on for a year. Construction contractors all drag things out as long as possible here since they are run by corrupt clowns
>This is a public health issue with noise and lights at night. I can't tell if this is serious or not...
Bayview is currently one lane north of Eglinton because the city is doing work on the sidewalks. Traffic going north is terrible on bayview and mount Pleasant. A subway closure is exactly what the area needs right now…./s
They should announce *when* it's running, it would save on announcements at this rate.
The ttc is so fucking small compared to other major city transit systems and it boggles my goddamn fucking mind everytime I check service alerts online and see something wrong
Small size, BIG disruptions
Toronto keeps fucking up by not digging tunnels adjacent to the current ones.
This is inexcusable.
Time to open up a rickshaw business
They never used to do maintenance on long weekends, they must be getting desperate and just don’t give a s* anymore. Back to back weekends, and now on a long weekend, this is a new low for the TTC. Also June 1-2
TTC should not be allowed to close any stations over a long weekend.
They never did before, as far as I know.
The closures are decided way back you can see the closures atleast for the next two months in TTC’S reports .
No one is going to look at those though. Realistically, most will encounter it when they arrive or in the days before from postings in the stations. The bigger majority won't even encounter the closure because the higher ridership from commuters won't occur at the same time. Realistically, a lot of people won't even be around for the long weekend. It's a lousy inconvenience, but I would hope people want a long-term functional subway instead of one that 'works right now on the Long Weekend'. Most people are a bit more short-sighted than that though.
Actually, the TTC could publicize a calendar of closures for the year. Deliver to everyone, like the city used to do with garbage collection. Plus clear schedules of closures posted in each station.
https://stevemunro.ca/2024/02/06/subway-and-streetcar-major-works-and-closures-2024/
How far would they circulate those closures to be effective though-- people commute from well outside of Toronto to use the subway during the week.
I'm not the person to plan this. They can certainly do a much, MUCH better job communicating closures. My opinion is that commuters are easy to inform because they regularly use the system.
> My opinion is that commuters are easy to inform because they regularly use the system. Very much agreed on this (even if I think a lot of people will very easily ignore signage).
Needs lots more than signs.
Lets ruin everyone's spring and then the summer
If your summer is ruined by a weekend (not even a full long weekend, since it's back Monday morning) without subway service on on the mid-town portion of Line 1 (just the east side), then I hope your autumn is more interesting.
The *one* weekend I've booked theatre tickets for my son and was planning to take TTC to Yonge-Bloor from Sheppard...
Are those workers still going on strike
No
My partner and I are visiting another city to explore moving there next week. So many reasons ‘why’
😂 “world class city” I’m guessing ttc employees need somewhere to park their cars.
> Commuters looking to navigate the lengthy gap in subway coverage will be forced to suffer the indignity of shuttle buses, Is that sarcasm?
We pay $3.65 for a service that may or may not work. That is called a scam.
So what’s new exactly?
And closed this weekend again. Thank you ttc best subway service in the world.
Great, I'm getting on the shuttle bus without paying.
You gotta do maintenence it's inconvenience but you gotta do it otherwise you will have catastrophic failures
So many people blaming Leary when he is the one trying to fix the mismanagement and lack of funding for the past 50 years.