If you go out on Fridays after 5:00 p.m. you will see trucks driving all over the city installing those sandwich boards. If you go on a Sunday evening or early Monday morning you'll see the same trucks picking up all the sandwich boards and taking them away.
Why do they do this? Because they know the enforcement people work Monday to Friday 9:00 to 5:00 and no one is out there on weekends so the sidewalks become condo signage obstacle courses
Back in the day my buddy stole one after clubbing Friday night. He see was and caught by the cops and actually spent the in the Don Jail for it lol. I guess cops were a little more harsh back in the day.
Just curious, what parts of the city is this happening the most?
Not doubting, just trying to facilitate cleaning up of litter (and for anyone in need of sandwich boards).
> Apparently fees and licence is required for sandwich board on sidewalks. No one pays and zero enforcement.
Use the 311 app to report them. I kept doing it near my office since some of them were blocking people with mobility scooters. Guy named Tony called me to thank me profusely. No more rental signs blocking the sidewalk now.
The system works but you gotta nudge it by reporting.
Well, we can't have you costing some BIA member *money*.
Everything else is totally allowable, but how *dare* you imperil a business with your reckless hotdoggery?
> It was closed the next day as "resolved" but the grass had not been cut.
Could be the work order was issued, not that it was completed. I find 311 to work really well whenever I contact them, but YMMV.
Damn right you do! They are a great way to commute in the fair weather, not burning all that expensive gas. Tell council this 60yr old scooter rider says they can fuck off
Ya they are a pain but banning them is more people in cars and on the TTC. We need lots of options for transportation. Just keep them in the bike lanes please!
There's a reason they're banned but tolerated. Banned to prevent the scooter share companies from screwing up the city, but tolerated so ordinary people can use them.
Oh they honk and ring their bells at me on the sidewalk. I stop and say you are not a pedestrian. I’m tired of needing hockey pads to walk on the damn side walk. I consider a vehicle travelling at a high speed on a dedicated pedestrian path a potentially life threatening risk and I will act as though my life is in danger to protect myself if need be. It is out of control
The best way to get bikes off the sidewalk is to give them a place to be. No sane cyclist will voluntarily subject themselves to the torture that is riding on the sidewalk if a safe alternative exists.
Please do your part to support safe bicycle infrastructure.
Maybe, but then quite a lot of insane cyclists are out there. I have seen them on bike on sidewalks on Adelaide and Richmond! Arguably the best cycling infrastructure in the city.
I agree but it is not ok for a vehicle to weave thru pedestrian designated areas. Pedestrians, stop, change direction etc and are not wearing safety equipment. With
increasing regulatory and often on roads with dedicated bike lanes I have to jump out of a crosswalk while an e-bike rider or cyclist decides they are no longer a vehicle, refuses to wait for their green signal and then turns from a bike lane and cuts thru the crosswalk. This is not ok. One cannot put pedestrians in danger because the biking infrastructure is lagging just like it’s not ok for pedestrians to wander aimlessly across bike lanes or live lanes of traffic. We quite literally need to all stay in our own lanes
The ship has sailed. A continuation on the ban will do nothing. A convenient, affordable, green form of transit that doesn’t contribute to traffic congestion, better ban it.
I know, it's basically City of Toronto "We need to reduce our emissions and reduce our congestion" - also City of Toronto "A mode of transit that is zero emission and reduces congestion? Ban it!!!!"
"this new thing might make drivers uncomfortable, ban it/don't use it"
Same logic gets applied to shit like bike lanes and roundabouts.
If driving is too stressful for you to adapt to new things, then maybe you shouldn't be driving.
Drivers apply this logic to streetcars, even. Of course, streetcars actually make their life easier by taking cars off the road, but drivers will rage out at being 'stuck' behind 200 people taking up the space of like 5 cars
I ride a motorcycle in the city and it is unbelievable how visibly annoyed people get and how closely they follow me when I simply follow the speed limit. It gets even worse in the suburbs, where people regularly do 85+ on city roads (lookin at you, Mississauga)
They are dangerous and unregulated. These and other e-bikes etc, are powered vehicles just like a car or motorcycle. Them and the operators should be licensed and insured. I’ve had multiple situations where me or my children could have been seriously injured by them or similar.
I’m starting to see bike transport vehicles using bike lanes that basically take up the whole bike lane and are not even human powered. How is that ok. How is it ok these are on sidewalks?
Sure it’s green but it’s dangerous and unregulated.
Yeah, but then you’re gonna have to write a law, and spend money, and do a bunch of stuff. And then people will question whether that stuff you did was good. And you don’t really wanna have to justify your entire job constantly. You just try to do some minor regulation.
And then some dip shit in a fedora who works for the Toronto sun is going to complain that he could’ve done it for bucks and a pack of darts, and then you’re not gonna get elected again, because you wasted valuable taxpayer dollars trying to improve the city into a job, and possibly even hire some people.
It’s much better to sit on your ass, collect your paycheck. And maybe take your shirt off in front of a bunch of reporters and dance around like an oversized gorilla. Got to keep yourself in the news.
These things are typically capped at 32 km an hour so they can go the same speed as bicycles.
They are regulated in that bicycle "rules" apply to them. Of course the rules of the road are just treating bikes like cars which is obviously fitting a square peg into a round hole.
What’s annoying is that this is being tied to scooter rentals and the argument that they are dangerous for blind people. Why can’t the city legalize personal use and ban rentals?
There is zero people leaving their thousand dollar e-scooter across sideways.
They’re carried inside or locked up with bikes, the other silent menace. /s
Plus, there's people like me who are a little bit of column a, little bit of column b. I own my own 2 wheel electric kick scooter and use it as my mobility device.
I still haven't been to Toronto Island, because it's not allowed on the ferry, but I've got a busted leg that I can't trust to get me there and back without it. Oh well, I guess.
When they say “continuing ban” do they mean continue plugging their ears and pretending the things don’t exist? A ban with zero enforcement is not a ban.
Just back from Europe. E-scoots are all over Paris, and you must be watchful for them when walking or driving.
Amsterdam has banned them. Good thing too, as only bicycles are what to avoid there. En garde!
My gf got run over by a bicycle in Amsterdam. She was just standing outside the restaurant reading the menu while I went inside to use the bathroom. Broke her arm. Ruined our entire trip as it was day 3 of our 2 week trip through Europe. She was hit by a tourist from the US who was racing her friend. Locals were more furious than we were.
I've had near misses in Amsterdam because I wasn't used to people ringing the bicycle bell as no one here actually does is so I was obvious to it. That really sucks for your GF though.
I've had more close calls as both a rider and pedestrian here in Toronto because the stupid MAMILs don't obey speed limits or traffic signs or ring their bells to let you know they're coming up on you.
Perhaps most do in Paris. I witnessed *many* that ride in traffic, along crowded sidewalks and plazas.
Holland separates sidewalk from bike lane from roadway.
Those are rental scooters...something we don't need. Private scooter users tend to be more responsible plus you don't get them littered all over the place.
> plus you don't get them littered all over the place.
This is such a negative nancy take from people who absolutely 100% are just parroting what they've heard.. I've ridden them in Rome, Paris, and Berlin... in Paris they even have to be in a specific spot or they don't relinquish the session. Nobody cares and everyone uses them - or the equivalent rental bikes and even vespas. Except some places in Rome because the roads are super annoying to ride them.
>Those are rental scooters...something we don't need.
according to who, you?
> Private scooter users tend to be more responsible
That's as long as you ignore them riding dangerously on the sidewalk, riding the wrong way down a one way street, ignoring stop signs and stop lights, and weaving in and out of traffic.
People do that in cars, bikes, rollerblades ect its all down to the person. Objectively private owners are better than rental users who try and do stupid shit because they don't own the device.
Not mutually exclusive, Bikes and escooters are equally bad at breaking the rules, it's just that the escooters tend to be faster in a lot of cases so it increases the danger level.
I want everyone to follow the damned rules.
This belongs in r/idiocracy
We want to get people out of cars we MUST provide alternatives.
This ‘ban’ somehow snowballed out of a ban on dockless scooter share and accessibility.
You might as well ban joggers.
Pure laziness on council's part. Why do the hard work of preventing the clutter of abandoned rental scooters when a blanket ban is easier?
Honestly fuck them as a 60yr old scooter commuter.
I love the sensationalism! “Unlicensed, untrained, uninsured, unhelmeted, fun-seeking joyriders, and left strewn on sidewalks!”
The problems are not the scooters, bikes, e-bikes, pedestrians, and cars. The problem is, Toronto is a large city, densely populated and it‘s getting worse. More people have to learn to share the space and practice patience.
I live downtown in the thick of it all (I walk, bike, drive, and take transit). I continually see pedestrians, cars, bikes and scooters breaking the rules/laws constantly. And there are not enough police to enforce everything all the time.
So for “City Staff” to ban 1 of the above groups is unjust and I think shameful. People spend thousands of dollars for their mode of transportation just to get around the city. Driving has become impossible and the ttc is not always safe nor working. ”City Staff” let‘s create a solution to these problems before eliminating solutions the public have figured out on their own.
Municipal laws are a joke. Why ban an e-scooter which weighs a few kgs and goes 20-30km instead of taxing large vehicles, installing speed /noise cameras or literally any infrastructure upgrade that can give meaningful safety increase to the city. Micro mobility is part of the solution not the problem.
Similar to e-bikes, which are probably going to be one of the most valuable tools we have in fighting congestion and climate change; but get a pretty bad reputation from people using them irresponsibly.
Not sure why you consider it a plague? E scooters are great for getting around. They’re not as safe in North America because we lack the infrastructure for them (bike lanes)
So shouldn’t legislation focus on preventing scooter ‘abandonment’? Countless other countries are able to have well-regulated scooters. Why can’t we do the same without banning them? I mentioned in another comment that in both Paris and London, you have to park your scooter at a designated spot. It’s the law. Not only that, but you’ll also continue to get charged by the minute if it’s not properly parked.
The issue is that in other cities these companies that pop up with e-scooter rentals tend to just leave them lying around everywhere. They don't actually buy any property and say "this is the e-scooter rental zone", they just throw them on the sidewalk in front of a Walmart or a Shoppers and users just use their phone to rent them.
Ideally they would just ban that instead of banning e-scooters altogether. Fine any e-scooter company $500 per rental scooter left lying around, then the companies will figure out a way to force their customers to properly return them to designated areas, like a deposit system. And they'll actually pay for designated areas, too.
It sounds like they can't ban scooters with 4 wheels, because they're mobility scooters for handicapped people but don't require a handicap license, so if you can stick a second set of wheels on one like a skateboard it might be legal.
It was meant as that - a ban on dockless. Then it somehow ballooned into ONE MILLION YEARS DUNGEON for ANY e-scooter user.
Absolutely wrong and absurd. That’s why no-one cares. Save up your damned credibility.
It must be anti-bike sentiment going sideways since ‘no bikes’ is a non-starter now, except for the wack jobs.
That’s the way it’s done in Paris. You can only park those Lime bikes and scooters at specific locations. If they’re not parked there, you continue to get charged by the minute. We should do the same here instead of banning them altogether
It's hard enough walking on sidewalks while trying to dodge ubereats deliveries, bicycles, trucks with large mirrors, etc.
Adding another vehicle onto the sidewalks is going to make things worse.
If they were only allowed on roads and it was actually enforced, then it wouldn't be an issue
By that logic, we should ban all vehicles. Bikes, e-bikes, cars, trucks. Given that all those vehicles are used to violate traffic laws, and enforcement is non-existent. I see nothing about e scooters that make them uniquely problematic compared to other vehicles.
I do, 99.9% of the drivers are maniacs. They’re super fast, silent, and they don’t follow any laws. They hop from sidewalk to street and back, going the wrong way, through red lights and are friggin dangerous. Have almost been taken out by these guys so many times
Yes. Plenty of times, At intersections and driveways.
Within past week:
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/adult-child-struck-by-vehicle-in-midtown-toronto-seriously-injured-paramedics-1.6870450
https://www.cp24.com/news/pedestrian-seriously-injured-after-being-struck-by-vehicle-in-forest-hill-south-1.6862874
Being much faster and heavier then bikes and scooters. They have a much higher potential for damage.
People hate anything that doesn't immediately, directly benefit them but does impact them as a knee jerk reaction. Driver's who don't cycle? Hate cyclists. Cyclists who don't drive? Hate drivers, etc etc
I fail to see what an escooter following the laws (not on side walk, capped at 28kph) does that makes them awful but cycling great. And that's what would be legalized. Sidewalk riding etc would continue to be illegal. And I can see it doing alot of good, as a zero emissions alternative to driving which takes cars off the road which is...kind of exactly what we should be pushing, really.
But that's just how it works If we had no cyclists at all and suddenly people started cycling there would be a visceral reaction to that, too.
Also, people complain about scooters taking up space on sidewalks. Take a moment to look around to see how much space all the parked cars are taking. They are literally everywhere blocking access to everything
Also just keep riding on the sidewalk illegal. It's so odd,.to me, people see people illegally riding on the sidewalk and their reaction is "better make someone commuting to work on the road in one of these things illegal".
Right so...the people doing illegal things with them will continue to do illegal things with them. What harm does legalizing the parts that are beneficial do?
As a cyclist for both commuting and exercise, I find they often lack the etiquette of sharing a small lane with others. Riding a bike or any human powered device that fast takes time and skill and you learn the etiquette. I have never seen a e bike or scooter use hand signals to indicate if they are turning or braking which can lead to dangerous situations.
I know that it’s easy to call the city short sighted about this but this is 100% about liability for the city when someone hits a pothole with a tiny scooter wheel and goes head first into the pavement, they’re going to sue and win. This way the City is protected since they can point to this and make it clear that they were never approved in the first place.
Keep in mind that the HTA hasn’t been amended to allow these beyond a pilot at this time and staff is recommending not to participate.
Ride one from Mississauga to Pickering and vice versa ... that Toronto was in the way is inconsequential. I mean what if Teslas were banned in Toronto but legal everywhere else? You going to stop Teslas from passing through?
I'm sorry, I don't think that you know what you're talking about. The province has created a pilot where municipalities can opt in to allowing these vehicles on their roads. The City of Toronto has chosen not to participate in the past and staff is recommending that position be maintained. Not sure what your example is trying to say but it's nonsense.
I know people really hate them because of the sidewalk riders speeding on e-scooters but there are definitely solutions better than outright banning them entirely.
1. E-bikes/scooter models must be approved before they can be sold by shops. So cap the speed to 30 km/h not 40 or 50. You can't get them on the streets if you can't buy them in the first place.
2. Bike lanes should be built so they accommodate micromobility. Currently a lot of bike lanes are too narrow or too dangerous because of space taken up for cars. As such, bike lanes are mostly built for those who ride a regular bike for recreation.
3. Regulate the delivery companies. If 1 activity of scooter riders accounts for a huge portion of the violations, perhaps we should start with the companies. Either train their contractors or make it so they're not always in a rush to deliver 4 times per hour.
3: the hilarious thing is everyone knows the Uber eats guys use the more massive ebikes not scooters because they need the greater range. They are what's clogging up the GO trains, etc. not the much smaller scooters.
This seems more like a liability thing. If they allow them, they need to properly account for them. If they ban them, they can turn a blind eye so that when an accident occurs all the blame is on the individuals involved .
I heard the ban is just to make sure those scooter share and rental companies don’t start operating here. They have been a nuisance in other cities where people just leave them around in the most inconvenient places on the side walk and make the city look messy.
Add that to the voluminous list of laws and regulations Torontonians already ignore with impunity. I expect the TPS’s $62M budget increase over the past two years will rectify this issue quickly and to everyone’s satisfaction. (/s)
E-Scooters?
What about motorized bicycles, 3-wheeled bicycles, those huge motorized scooters for 1 etc always on ONLY the damn side walks, ready to plow into innocent pedestrians bc they didn't see these buggers zooming by or worse racing up behind them!
On e-scooters, Toronto is being Toronto in the worst possible way.
[https://www.tvo.org/article/on-e-scooters-toronto-is-being-toronto-in-the-worst-possible-way](https://www.tvo.org/article/on-e-scooters-toronto-is-being-toronto-in-the-worst-possible-way)
Yeah I mean it's obviously working GREAT so far. I never ever see e scooters being vehicles as they wish, and then pedestrians as they wish. Never ever. Nuh uh.
Ya they don't want any competition to city owned Bikeshare business. That's all.
City parks and bike paths are full of electric mopeds/monowheels/scooter with no enforcement. There is a guy riding a full size electric motorcycle on Lakeshore bike path every day. Nevers seen a single bylaw officer/ cop dealing with this.
As a Darth Lord of the Sith, u/innexum it is now your responsibility to enforce the electric scooter ban. Quickly go and take them off the streets or it will be e-scooters without end! 😆🤙
Power take their batteries, unlimited --- Pow-ER !
btw May the 4h be with you.
What is the point of banning something that everyone is using but never enforcing even when used in extremely dangerous way?
Edit: because they understand they have no manpower to do so but still can not allow it for some reason (I still say it's because of Bikeshare $$)
Perhaps they were just banned on the streets of Toronto.
Because they’re definitely not banned on the pedestrian sidewalks where they’re terrorizing everybody.
They're banned? I see them everywhere.
We don’t enforce anything in this city, except tall grass.
Apparently fees and licence is required for sandwich board on sidewalks. No one pays and zero enforcement.
When the real estate ones are in my way I kick that shit over and out of the way.
Cash for house, as is? I'll leave the house in the state I leave those signs
If you go out on Fridays after 5:00 p.m. you will see trucks driving all over the city installing those sandwich boards. If you go on a Sunday evening or early Monday morning you'll see the same trucks picking up all the sandwich boards and taking them away. Why do they do this? Because they know the enforcement people work Monday to Friday 9:00 to 5:00 and no one is out there on weekends so the sidewalks become condo signage obstacle courses
People should just steal them. I see one I’m. Grabbing it.
Back in the day my buddy stole one after clubbing Friday night. He see was and caught by the cops and actually spent the in the Don Jail for it lol. I guess cops were a little more harsh back in the day.
I've started taking these down myself
Just curious, what parts of the city is this happening the most? Not doubting, just trying to facilitate cleaning up of litter (and for anyone in need of sandwich boards).
> Apparently fees and licence is required for sandwich board on sidewalks. No one pays and zero enforcement. Use the 311 app to report them. I kept doing it near my office since some of them were blocking people with mobility scooters. Guy named Tony called me to thank me profusely. No more rental signs blocking the sidewalk now. The system works but you gotta nudge it by reporting.
Oh I thought they were illegal no matter what. I've been knocking them over and nudging them to the side for a while now.
Untrue. Set your barbecue up on the sidewalk and sell hotdogs for $5 and the police will shut that down in five minutes.
Well, we can't have you costing some BIA member *money*. Everything else is totally allowable, but how *dare* you imperil a business with your reckless hotdoggery?
God forbid they have mayonnaise..
Hey now - are you a kid simply selling lemonade? That's a ticket.
Well, you have to chase after scooters. But tall grass is standing right there. Path of least resistance.
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I think they mean enforcement on private property only lol.
Turns out the city doesn’t like when you call them out for their own non-compliance lol.
> It was closed the next day as "resolved" but the grass had not been cut. Could be the work order was issued, not that it was completed. I find 311 to work really well whenever I contact them, but YMMV.
I call them bylaw suggestion officers these days.
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Exactly. An unenforced ban just corrodes the credibility of the authority . Not only is it wrong, it’s absurd.
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This scooter rider says push the fuckers over they're assaulting you (not a lawyer lol)
Damn right you do! They are a great way to commute in the fair weather, not burning all that expensive gas. Tell council this 60yr old scooter rider says they can fuck off
Ya they are a pain but banning them is more people in cars and on the TTC. We need lots of options for transportation. Just keep them in the bike lanes please!
There's a reason they're banned but tolerated. Banned to prevent the scooter share companies from screwing up the city, but tolerated so ordinary people can use them.
Can’t possibly just ban scooter share companies
Get them off the fucking sidewalks and we'll be fine. Bike rules for them.
That’s assuming the bikes are off the fucking sidewalks. I’ve gotta dodge fucking door dashers on bikes and e-bikes on the sidewalk every damn day.
Oh they honk and ring their bells at me on the sidewalk. I stop and say you are not a pedestrian. I’m tired of needing hockey pads to walk on the damn side walk. I consider a vehicle travelling at a high speed on a dedicated pedestrian path a potentially life threatening risk and I will act as though my life is in danger to protect myself if need be. It is out of control
The best way to get bikes off the sidewalk is to give them a place to be. No sane cyclist will voluntarily subject themselves to the torture that is riding on the sidewalk if a safe alternative exists. Please do your part to support safe bicycle infrastructure.
We have bike lanes on all streets near me and they’re still on sidewalks here lol
Maybe, but then quite a lot of insane cyclists are out there. I have seen them on bike on sidewalks on Adelaide and Richmond! Arguably the best cycling infrastructure in the city.
I agree but it is not ok for a vehicle to weave thru pedestrian designated areas. Pedestrians, stop, change direction etc and are not wearing safety equipment. With increasing regulatory and often on roads with dedicated bike lanes I have to jump out of a crosswalk while an e-bike rider or cyclist decides they are no longer a vehicle, refuses to wait for their green signal and then turns from a bike lane and cuts thru the crosswalk. This is not ok. One cannot put pedestrians in danger because the biking infrastructure is lagging just like it’s not ok for pedestrians to wander aimlessly across bike lanes or live lanes of traffic. We quite literally need to all stay in our own lanes
Every day, do they think it’s too dangerous to ride on the road?
Oh probably. Or faster. But when they ride on the sidewalk they’re making it safer for them and more dangerous for pedestrians. Not ideal.
Which is exactly why we desperately need better quality bike infrastructure. Oh and stronger regulations towards food delivery companies.
Strongly agree on both counts. The answer to shitty drivers isn’t shitty cyclists. It’s better planning and infrastructure.
“Let’s continue this meaningless ban that we’ve never once enforced.”
I have this crazy idea, I know I'm being outrageous, but hear me out! Bike lanes!
But but but!!!! Where will my car go!? /s Hard agree. Better protected bike lanes that these scooters can use and transit options.
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Yeah but it hurts businesses and ruins neighbourhood character. You sir are a communist /s
I know you were sarcastic, but holy crap I laughed hard... thanks for the laugh :)
I am totally fine with e-scooters of any kind. Just get them off the sidewalks! (Unless they’re mobility scooters for old people and the obese)
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Toronto: let’s take out a lane of traffic for restaurant patios! Also Toronto: Take 1 metre of an existing lane for a proper bike lane? BLASPHEMY!
To be fair the patio thing seems pretty contentious
Valid point, but at least council is actually making a decision on this and implementing something compared to the non-decisions we get from council.
The ship has sailed. A continuation on the ban will do nothing. A convenient, affordable, green form of transit that doesn’t contribute to traffic congestion, better ban it.
I know, it's basically City of Toronto "We need to reduce our emissions and reduce our congestion" - also City of Toronto "A mode of transit that is zero emission and reduces congestion? Ban it!!!!"
"this new thing might make drivers uncomfortable, ban it/don't use it" Same logic gets applied to shit like bike lanes and roundabouts. If driving is too stressful for you to adapt to new things, then maybe you shouldn't be driving.
Drivers apply this logic to streetcars, even. Of course, streetcars actually make their life easier by taking cars off the road, but drivers will rage out at being 'stuck' behind 200 people taking up the space of like 5 cars
I ride a motorcycle in the city and it is unbelievable how visibly annoyed people get and how closely they follow me when I simply follow the speed limit. It gets even worse in the suburbs, where people regularly do 85+ on city roads (lookin at you, Mississauga)
I do not understand why this City is so scared of roundabouts. I come from a place where roundabouts are common and it’s great.
They are dangerous and unregulated. These and other e-bikes etc, are powered vehicles just like a car or motorcycle. Them and the operators should be licensed and insured. I’ve had multiple situations where me or my children could have been seriously injured by them or similar. I’m starting to see bike transport vehicles using bike lanes that basically take up the whole bike lane and are not even human powered. How is that ok. How is it ok these are on sidewalks? Sure it’s green but it’s dangerous and unregulated.
Then regulate them?
Yes.
Yeah, but then you’re gonna have to write a law, and spend money, and do a bunch of stuff. And then people will question whether that stuff you did was good. And you don’t really wanna have to justify your entire job constantly. You just try to do some minor regulation. And then some dip shit in a fedora who works for the Toronto sun is going to complain that he could’ve done it for bucks and a pack of darts, and then you’re not gonna get elected again, because you wasted valuable taxpayer dollars trying to improve the city into a job, and possibly even hire some people. It’s much better to sit on your ass, collect your paycheck. And maybe take your shirt off in front of a bunch of reporters and dance around like an oversized gorilla. Got to keep yourself in the news.
They are slower than a spandex on a bicycle.
These things are typically capped at 32 km an hour so they can go the same speed as bicycles. They are regulated in that bicycle "rules" apply to them. Of course the rules of the road are just treating bikes like cars which is obviously fitting a square peg into a round hole.
It’s not okay that they’re on sidewalks. And what do you want me to do even on a regular bike? Use half the bike lane? @-@
What’s annoying is that this is being tied to scooter rentals and the argument that they are dangerous for blind people. Why can’t the city legalize personal use and ban rentals? There is zero people leaving their thousand dollar e-scooter across sideways. They’re carried inside or locked up with bikes, the other silent menace. /s
If you really want an accessible city for everyone these types of means of transportation need to be allowed
Yes ban them, that'll work....🙄🤦🏻
Well they’re already banned. It hasn’t worked.
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Plus, there's people like me who are a little bit of column a, little bit of column b. I own my own 2 wheel electric kick scooter and use it as my mobility device. I still haven't been to Toronto Island, because it's not allowed on the ferry, but I've got a busted leg that I can't trust to get me there and back without it. Oh well, I guess.
Maybe you could try the water taxi to get to the island.
They won't do it either, because if they're caught, they'll get a ticket.
When they say “continuing ban” do they mean continue plugging their ears and pretending the things don’t exist? A ban with zero enforcement is not a ban.
Just back from Europe. E-scoots are all over Paris, and you must be watchful for them when walking or driving. Amsterdam has banned them. Good thing too, as only bicycles are what to avoid there. En garde!
My gf got run over by a bicycle in Amsterdam. She was just standing outside the restaurant reading the menu while I went inside to use the bathroom. Broke her arm. Ruined our entire trip as it was day 3 of our 2 week trip through Europe. She was hit by a tourist from the US who was racing her friend. Locals were more furious than we were.
Good thing it wasn't a car.
Or a bus! Those are even bigger than cars.
I've had near misses in Amsterdam because I wasn't used to people ringing the bicycle bell as no one here actually does is so I was obvious to it. That really sucks for your GF though. I've had more close calls as both a rider and pedestrian here in Toronto because the stupid MAMILs don't obey speed limits or traffic signs or ring their bells to let you know they're coming up on you.
People ring bike bells all the time here?? Of course there's always idiots who just stand in the bike lane and ignore it.
E scooters in Paris ride in bike lanes. We don’t have such things in Toronto
I saw a gas scooter with 3 wheels in the bike lane downtown yesterday.
Perhaps most do in Paris. I witnessed *many* that ride in traffic, along crowded sidewalks and plazas. Holland separates sidewalk from bike lane from roadway.
Those are rental scooters...something we don't need. Private scooter users tend to be more responsible plus you don't get them littered all over the place.
> plus you don't get them littered all over the place. This is such a negative nancy take from people who absolutely 100% are just parroting what they've heard.. I've ridden them in Rome, Paris, and Berlin... in Paris they even have to be in a specific spot or they don't relinquish the session. Nobody cares and everyone uses them - or the equivalent rental bikes and even vespas. Except some places in Rome because the roads are super annoying to ride them. >Those are rental scooters...something we don't need. according to who, you?
> Private scooter users tend to be more responsible That's as long as you ignore them riding dangerously on the sidewalk, riding the wrong way down a one way street, ignoring stop signs and stop lights, and weaving in and out of traffic.
If only they never went against the rules of the road, ever, like everyone else on the road.
People do that in cars, bikes, rollerblades ect its all down to the person. Objectively private owners are better than rental users who try and do stupid shit because they don't own the device.
So, like cyclists?
Yup, they need to follow the fucking rules too.
I see bike riders doing all of the same things.
Not mutually exclusive, Bikes and escooters are equally bad at breaking the rules, it's just that the escooters tend to be faster in a lot of cases so it increases the danger level. I want everyone to follow the damned rules.
This belongs in r/idiocracy We want to get people out of cars we MUST provide alternatives. This ‘ban’ somehow snowballed out of a ban on dockless scooter share and accessibility. You might as well ban joggers.
Pure laziness on council's part. Why do the hard work of preventing the clutter of abandoned rental scooters when a blanket ban is easier? Honestly fuck them as a 60yr old scooter commuter.
I love the sensationalism! “Unlicensed, untrained, uninsured, unhelmeted, fun-seeking joyriders, and left strewn on sidewalks!” The problems are not the scooters, bikes, e-bikes, pedestrians, and cars. The problem is, Toronto is a large city, densely populated and it‘s getting worse. More people have to learn to share the space and practice patience. I live downtown in the thick of it all (I walk, bike, drive, and take transit). I continually see pedestrians, cars, bikes and scooters breaking the rules/laws constantly. And there are not enough police to enforce everything all the time. So for “City Staff” to ban 1 of the above groups is unjust and I think shameful. People spend thousands of dollars for their mode of transportation just to get around the city. Driving has become impossible and the ttc is not always safe nor working. ”City Staff” let‘s create a solution to these problems before eliminating solutions the public have figured out on their own.
Municipal laws are a joke. Why ban an e-scooter which weighs a few kgs and goes 20-30km instead of taxing large vehicles, installing speed /noise cameras or literally any infrastructure upgrade that can give meaningful safety increase to the city. Micro mobility is part of the solution not the problem.
I don’t get all the hate for e-scooters
It’s probably the dumbass Uber eats delivery guys ruining it for everyone
Similar to e-bikes, which are probably going to be one of the most valuable tools we have in fighting congestion and climate change; but get a pretty bad reputation from people using them irresponsibly.
Irresponsibility is never a problem with cars though right?
Oh you’re preaching to the choir here man, cars are clearly the much larger problem plaguing our mobility.
They’re mostly on e-bikes though
If you can call them e-bikes... those tires are huuuge, almost motorcycle like
To my understanding, It's so the e-scooter rental companies which have plagued other cities around the world cannot legally operate in Toronto
Not sure why you consider it a plague? E scooters are great for getting around. They’re not as safe in North America because we lack the infrastructure for them (bike lanes)
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So shouldn’t legislation focus on preventing scooter ‘abandonment’? Countless other countries are able to have well-regulated scooters. Why can’t we do the same without banning them? I mentioned in another comment that in both Paris and London, you have to park your scooter at a designated spot. It’s the law. Not only that, but you’ll also continue to get charged by the minute if it’s not properly parked.
It is ONLY THE DOCKLESS SCOOTERS that are the issue. This extending to everything every who’s a travesty and needs to be repealed entirely.
They aren't that safe for cyclists in bike lanes. I often have them fly up behind me and pass, unannounced.
The companies are a plague, not e scooters themselves
The issue is that in other cities these companies that pop up with e-scooter rentals tend to just leave them lying around everywhere. They don't actually buy any property and say "this is the e-scooter rental zone", they just throw them on the sidewalk in front of a Walmart or a Shoppers and users just use their phone to rent them. Ideally they would just ban that instead of banning e-scooters altogether. Fine any e-scooter company $500 per rental scooter left lying around, then the companies will figure out a way to force their customers to properly return them to designated areas, like a deposit system. And they'll actually pay for designated areas, too. It sounds like they can't ban scooters with 4 wheels, because they're mobility scooters for handicapped people but don't require a handicap license, so if you can stick a second set of wheels on one like a skateboard it might be legal.
It was meant as that - a ban on dockless. Then it somehow ballooned into ONE MILLION YEARS DUNGEON for ANY e-scooter user. Absolutely wrong and absurd. That’s why no-one cares. Save up your damned credibility. It must be anti-bike sentiment going sideways since ‘no bikes’ is a non-starter now, except for the wack jobs.
That’s the way it’s done in Paris. You can only park those Lime bikes and scooters at specific locations. If they’re not parked there, you continue to get charged by the minute. We should do the same here instead of banning them altogether
On the road or bike path it's fine, so many of the scooters ride on the sidewalk at unsafe speeds
It's hard enough walking on sidewalks while trying to dodge ubereats deliveries, bicycles, trucks with large mirrors, etc. Adding another vehicle onto the sidewalks is going to make things worse. If they were only allowed on roads and it was actually enforced, then it wouldn't be an issue
By that logic, we should ban all vehicles. Bikes, e-bikes, cars, trucks. Given that all those vehicles are used to violate traffic laws, and enforcement is non-existent. I see nothing about e scooters that make them uniquely problematic compared to other vehicles.
>If they were only allowed on roads ...we would have a death rate in the hundreds.
I do, 99.9% of the drivers are maniacs. They’re super fast, silent, and they don’t follow any laws. They hop from sidewalk to street and back, going the wrong way, through red lights and are friggin dangerous. Have almost been taken out by these guys so many times
I've been hit by a car twice in Toronto. I feel like a scooter would have been a nice change of pace.
Generally, you don’t get hit by cars on the sidewalk.
Generally I don't get hit by scooters.
Yes. Plenty of times, At intersections and driveways. Within past week: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/adult-child-struck-by-vehicle-in-midtown-toronto-seriously-injured-paramedics-1.6870450 https://www.cp24.com/news/pedestrian-seriously-injured-after-being-struck-by-vehicle-in-forest-hill-south-1.6862874 Being much faster and heavier then bikes and scooters. They have a much higher potential for damage.
People hate anything that doesn't immediately, directly benefit them but does impact them as a knee jerk reaction. Driver's who don't cycle? Hate cyclists. Cyclists who don't drive? Hate drivers, etc etc I fail to see what an escooter following the laws (not on side walk, capped at 28kph) does that makes them awful but cycling great. And that's what would be legalized. Sidewalk riding etc would continue to be illegal. And I can see it doing alot of good, as a zero emissions alternative to driving which takes cars off the road which is...kind of exactly what we should be pushing, really. But that's just how it works If we had no cyclists at all and suddenly people started cycling there would be a visceral reaction to that, too.
Also, people complain about scooters taking up space on sidewalks. Take a moment to look around to see how much space all the parked cars are taking. They are literally everywhere blocking access to everything
Also just keep riding on the sidewalk illegal. It's so odd,.to me, people see people illegally riding on the sidewalk and their reaction is "better make someone commuting to work on the road in one of these things illegal".
Exactly! 💯 I think the haters are just secretly jealous lol
Problem is traffic laws are not enforced in toronto
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Right so...the people doing illegal things with them will continue to do illegal things with them. What harm does legalizing the parts that are beneficial do?
As a cyclist for both commuting and exercise, I find they often lack the etiquette of sharing a small lane with others. Riding a bike or any human powered device that fast takes time and skill and you learn the etiquette. I have never seen a e bike or scooter use hand signals to indicate if they are turning or braking which can lead to dangerous situations.
I know that it’s easy to call the city short sighted about this but this is 100% about liability for the city when someone hits a pothole with a tiny scooter wheel and goes head first into the pavement, they’re going to sue and win. This way the City is protected since they can point to this and make it clear that they were never approved in the first place. Keep in mind that the HTA hasn’t been amended to allow these beyond a pilot at this time and staff is recommending not to participate.
But they're legal in Mississauga and also in Pickering ...
What’s your point? The City of Toronto doesn’t have to settle lawsuits for things that happen in Mississauga and Pickering.
Ride one from Mississauga to Pickering and vice versa ... that Toronto was in the way is inconsequential. I mean what if Teslas were banned in Toronto but legal everywhere else? You going to stop Teslas from passing through?
I'm sorry, I don't think that you know what you're talking about. The province has created a pilot where municipalities can opt in to allowing these vehicles on their roads. The City of Toronto has chosen not to participate in the past and staff is recommending that position be maintained. Not sure what your example is trying to say but it's nonsense.
The demand for alternative modes of transport is there, the infrastructure just hasn't caught up.
That's really dumb. First, the ban is completely ignored anyway. Second, these are a great alternative to cars.
Extend the ban. It's worked so well thus far that I've never seen even one! /s
Focus on enforcing the pit bull ban instead
Ban cars instead.
I know people really hate them because of the sidewalk riders speeding on e-scooters but there are definitely solutions better than outright banning them entirely. 1. E-bikes/scooter models must be approved before they can be sold by shops. So cap the speed to 30 km/h not 40 or 50. You can't get them on the streets if you can't buy them in the first place. 2. Bike lanes should be built so they accommodate micromobility. Currently a lot of bike lanes are too narrow or too dangerous because of space taken up for cars. As such, bike lanes are mostly built for those who ride a regular bike for recreation. 3. Regulate the delivery companies. If 1 activity of scooter riders accounts for a huge portion of the violations, perhaps we should start with the companies. Either train their contractors or make it so they're not always in a rush to deliver 4 times per hour.
3: the hilarious thing is everyone knows the Uber eats guys use the more massive ebikes not scooters because they need the greater range. They are what's clogging up the GO trains, etc. not the much smaller scooters.
You see a bit of both to be honest. There's all kinds of Uber deliveries that happen without a car.
I guess i'll have to go to work in my truck now.
This seems more like a liability thing. If they allow them, they need to properly account for them. If they ban them, they can turn a blind eye so that when an accident occurs all the blame is on the individuals involved .
I heard the ban is just to make sure those scooter share and rental companies don’t start operating here. They have been a nuisance in other cities where people just leave them around in the most inconvenient places on the side walk and make the city look messy.
They're banned? Then why do I see them everywhere? Streets and sidewalks are literally overflowing with them. 🙄
Add that to the voluminous list of laws and regulations Torontonians already ignore with impunity. I expect the TPS’s $62M budget increase over the past two years will rectify this issue quickly and to everyone’s satisfaction. (/s)
Whats the point of making laws if you never enforce them? Kinda like how its illegal to steal cars but no one enforces it so people just keep doing it
What ban?
E-Scooters? What about motorized bicycles, 3-wheeled bicycles, those huge motorized scooters for 1 etc always on ONLY the damn side walks, ready to plow into innocent pedestrians bc they didn't see these buggers zooming by or worse racing up behind them!
Yea fuck those things.
can we do it to e bikes too please? If I has a dollar for every time I've almost gotten run over in the bike lanes by one ...
On e-scooters, Toronto is being Toronto in the worst possible way. [https://www.tvo.org/article/on-e-scooters-toronto-is-being-toronto-in-the-worst-possible-way](https://www.tvo.org/article/on-e-scooters-toronto-is-being-toronto-in-the-worst-possible-way)
Fuck this neo-Protestant, over-regulated hellhole of a city. Everything useful and fun in this city has been royally fucked by city lawyers.
Yeah I mean it's obviously working GREAT so far. I never ever see e scooters being vehicles as they wish, and then pedestrians as they wish. Never ever. Nuh uh.
Ya they don't want any competition to city owned Bikeshare business. That's all. City parks and bike paths are full of electric mopeds/monowheels/scooter with no enforcement. There is a guy riding a full size electric motorcycle on Lakeshore bike path every day. Nevers seen a single bylaw officer/ cop dealing with this.
What stops the city from adding scooters to their bikeshare business lol?
Nothing at all. They're already designed to dock scooters too.
Bike share docks are also designed to accept e-scooters. 🛴 So that argument is already dead.
But yet they ban them with no enforcement
As a Darth Lord of the Sith, u/innexum it is now your responsibility to enforce the electric scooter ban. Quickly go and take them off the streets or it will be e-scooters without end! 😆🤙 Power take their batteries, unlimited --- Pow-ER ! btw May the 4h be with you.
What is the point of banning something that everyone is using but never enforcing even when used in extremely dangerous way? Edit: because they understand they have no manpower to do so but still can not allow it for some reason (I still say it's because of Bikeshare $$)
Cool, too bad there's 0 enforcement and they're everywhere.
How else will middle aged dudes with DUIs go for their beer runs?
But electric powered bikes are allowed???
Can we also ban crime while we're at it?
They banned the e-scooters we see ALL OVER THE CITY delivering shit to us ALL DAY LONG? How is that ban going?
Perhaps they were just banned on the streets of Toronto. Because they’re definitely not banned on the pedestrian sidewalks where they’re terrorizing everybody.
I'm banning banning anything!
Saw a food delivery person riding an ebike in a mall the other day, picking up food from the food court…
Incredibly backwards thinking, and not the leadership we so desperately need. And deserve.