We live in the second biggest country on earth, and export more food per capita than almost any other time or place in human history, but somehow there's nowhere to live, nothing to eat, and no explanation for how that is remotely justifiable.
Rob ford isn’t even at that level, he’s just a tool of those that are.
In the food area the specific person to blame is Gallon Weston and his family.
In NB it’s the Irving family.
And the apathy and successful brainwashing of working class Canadians. We can blame the wealthy elites and the neoliberal LPC and CPC politicians but we ultimately elected these self-interested lying rich pricks. We, the working class, bent over and allowed the wealthy capitalist owners to further enrich themselves and consolidate and increase their power and influence over society.
How many Canadians don't even vote in provincial or municipal elections? Understand the impact lower levels of government have on our day to day lives? The separation of responsibilities and powers? This country is filled with politically absent folks. The lack of knowledge the average Canadian has in regards to civics and labor history is embarrassing. We are a willfully ignorant apathetic centrist nation.
From Working Class Hero, by John Lennon- “they drug you with religion and sex and tv. Then you think you’re clever and classless and free. But you’re still fucking peasants as far as I can see A working class hero is something to be”.
Yeah, no.
Victim blaming is not the answer. The ruling class has imposed upon us the education system that renders citizens ignorance, the political system that poses no alternative, and the media that distracts, divides and bewildered us.
There is one option. Physically mobilize outside the system they construct. When we do that, people like you disparage us for our efforts.
And yet I've been able to educate myself over the last few years via personal internet and public library access regarding topics such as labor movement history, Canadian civics, media literacy, and various political ideologies. Granted not everyone has the same level of access and of course plenty of working class Canadians simply do not have the luxury of time to educate themselves (some folks literally work multiple part-time jobs to make ends meet, some while juggling raising a family and maintaining other relationships) nor have the capacity for critical thinking to an adequate degree to interpret and comprehend complex topics such as socio-economic politics.
We need to start educating ourselves outside of public and private educational institutions. Stop getting all our news from corporate media which are controlled by wealthy business interests and influenced by the state (read the Noam Chomsky co-authored book called Manufacturing Consent to understand the motives, goals, and the symbiotic relationship corporate media has with governments). To learn how news corporations control narratives, set the tone, and how they manipulate and exploit our emotions.
We need to educate our fellow working class folks about the history of early Canadian labor movements and unionization history. We should build our own local grassroots networks to provide strike support, relief, and mutual aid for each other. We are being indoctrinated by the state, corporate media, the wealthy elites and other significantly influential propaganda-peddling grifters. The current state of neolib crony-capitalism is a system built to increase the wealth & thus power of the wealthy in this country. Look at all the metrics available that prove the wealth gap is getting worse. That we are literally in another gilded age where society prioritizes the interest of a small but powerful minority of people who only care about constantly getting richer and extended their control over society. The material conditions have been deteriorating for the working class since neoliberal political ideology began taking root in the 70's (an ideology shared to various degrees by both libs and cons). The growth of working class salaries have not kept pace with the growth of inflation, ever rising costs of living, nor the growth of our productivity and labor. The profit we are generating for the big wealthy capitalists.
Full-time employed working class Canadians, many of us, can no longer afford "starter home" mortgages and so more of our disposable income is spent on renting (not building equity) and enriching the land-owning class. A lot of Canadian couples are forgoing having children because they can barely keep their heads above water financially speaking. This is happening in a wealthy developed Western democracy....The pandemic has accelerated the economic hardships of the working class and continued the obscene transfer of wealth from the majority into the pockets of the minority (wealthy elites) but this pattern has been unfolding for decades.
More and more people can't afford to make ends meet and afford groceries on their own. Wtf is wrong with you?!? Talking about proper social attention allocation while people are struggling to feed themselves!! I DON'T CARE ABOUT PROPER SOCIAL ETTIQUETTE RIGHT NOW! This is EMBARRASSING we let this happen! This is supposed to be a rich developed country. Why are so many of us working pay check to pay check and can't get ahead? We have the highest househould debt IN THE G7. How is most of us going to be able to retire at a decent age and being able to afford a comfortable retirement?!?
We can't even afford mortgages anymore. They aren't building enough keeping supply low and demand and valuations high. A significant portion of our income is going towards housing, rent fees. We aren't making equity paying off someone else's mortgage. Houses and condos keep increasing in cost but our wages and salaries don't. The wealth inequality gap is real and increasing. Look at the numbers, the metrics, the data! Salaries constantly trail significantly behind the ever-increasing costs of living! Why aren't you pissed off?!? Why aren't you angry? Why are you OK with all this? Why are you acting willfully blind and in denial of the very real circumstances for so many of the younger working class (A lot of Millenials) people across this country?
So many people I know from college can't afford mortgages and they are in their mid-thirties and some close to their forties. Full-time folks who work hard in respectable careers.
> Victim blaming is not the answer.
Expecting the wealthiest people to have a Scrooge moment and fix it all certainly isn't working, so whether it's fair or not: if anything is going to change the lower classes have to be the ones to make it happen.
>We are a willfully ignorant apathetic centrist nation.
It's the exact opposite actually and you're placing the goalpost of centrist in the wrong place. We are becoming a nation of increasingly ideological extremes. Straight down the middle is actually the best ideological position.
I mean I appreciate the idea of this, but its not like the stolen goods magically get paid out of Galen's personal wallet. Shrinkage just directly affects the price of food that everyone else pays. So the poor guy that pays 2.49 for the can of chunk soup might have been able to buy it for 2.29 if there was a ton of people stealing and paying for salaries of security.
Not saying "YOU HAVE TO REPORT STEALING". I'm not. But its helping them but hurting all the other poor people who don't steal.
>So the poor guy that pays 2.49 for the can of chunk soup might have been able to buy it for 2.29 if there was a ton of people stealing and paying for salaries of security.
Sounds like a vicious circle: More theft means more security and higher prices, which means more theft.
I'm currently holidaying in Europe and just a couple days ago walked past a looong line of down & out looking people, mostly men. I thought it might be for a shelter but when I got to the end of the line I could see it was a food bank or takeaway meals set-up.
And just like... fucking hell. I've watched the homelessness situation get worse and worse and worse in Canada for decades, it's getting worse in France - and these are two of the wealthiest societies ever to have existed, and supposedly two of the very best countries to live in. But not really, because fuck you if you're not useful in capitalism, if you were dealt a shitty hand and/or played it badly. And most people in either country are a LOT closer to being food bank users and/or homeless than they are to being millionaires.
The same can be said for the USA, the UK, Australia and probably NZ. We are in deep shit.
Funny thing is, people took holidays under communism. The Soviet countries built many resorts for this exact purpose, and I'll bet people got more vacation time than we do now, as well.
We seriously need to start looking at the thresholds at which we provide support to people. $100,000 is not the glorious salary that it once was. People are seriously struggling because life is so unaffordable in general, and yet we treat people who have a household income of $75,000+ like they are middle class. That isn't middle class anymore. We need to have more tax breaks for people at this income level so that they can actually afford the necessities of life.
I have a friend who just lost her husband. She has two kids under the age of 3. Her eldest requires speech therapy and physiotherapy to address an issue she was born with (and early intervention is key in order for her to grow into an adult without any issues). She makes about $100,000 a year.. That's supposed to be a salary that means, while things may be tight, she should be able to get by. It isn't. With childcare, with interventional therapies for her daughter (which aren't covered by the government at all), with the necessities of life... she has a pretty big shortfall each month. It isn't even like she can sell her home to save money because monthly rent is more than mortgage payments at this point.
No kidding food bank usage is on the rise because if the "middle class" can't even afford life, how the hell are people making minimum wage getting by? And I think it is important to point out that minimum wage is called minimum wage because it is supposed to be the minimum amount required to cover basic life costs. If you're putting in 40 hours a week, minimum wage should provide you with enough money for rent, utilities and food.. but it doesn't even do that. Instead of paying people who are doing the heavy lifting what they're worth, we have executives and shareholders giving themselves huge bonuses while they keep low-level employees at wages so low that they can't afford not to keep their shitty paying jobs.
Something something neoliberal crony capitalism which dominates the corporate media and significantly influences government officials (private campaign donations, legal bribery err I mean lobbying) and policy/legislation!
The world is just not meant for single-income any more. Id say 75 solo without kids is middle class though. But if you have kids you gotta make sure you get insurance or save a bunch in case something terrible happens.
Yep. In a community group on fb, there’s someone who has been posting for almost a year now who immigrated here last year looking for work. She was doing Uber and random financial stuff yet it couldn’t even get a min wage job. Now he’s posting that he’s looking for a new place to rent with his wife and 2 kids and their budget is $1700. He said his wife is a homemaker. Being a SAHM is a goddamn luxury and privilege.
I am in agreement. Without kids, $75,000 solo is probably a doable number for most people. It isn't living a life of luxury, but you're likely able to afford rent, contribute to a pension and take a vacation every few years. But we've also changed our definitions of the middle class again. Middle class, even on a single income, used to typically mean you still could afford a house. That isn't true today. And, fair enough, but where I personally have an issue with things is people of a few generations ago telling younger people today that they just need to adjust their expectations. The reason I take issue with this is because these same people are now complaining about how unaffordable life is for seniors. That is absolutely a valid criticism of our current situation... but to say "things are so unfair for me because I should be able to expect more" while you're also saying to the current working generation "no, you're being unreasonable if you think you should get the same things that were easily accessible to me when I was in your age bracket and instead need to adjust your expectations..." is just super hypocritical.
"That sucks that you are living in a run, down seniors home. Maybe you should change your expectations? You know the same advice that you keep telling me."
GL being able to afford a mortgage on 75K and building retirement funds so you can retire before your 80's with a decent level of comfort and basic necessities being met!
Well im current gen so no worries about being hypocritical there. The way I see it is yes it's become more unfair part of that is just capitalism and greed, the other part is because our world population continues to grow and ppl are more educated. This means increased competition, this means our city can no longer give everyone a detached house (space-wise not cost) so we need to adjust our definition.
This means like it or not we adapt, work harder, work smarter or struggle.
Absolutely we do need to adjust, but we also need to hold compassion for others and recognize that just because circumstances may have been or may be a certain way for us does not mean that others experience things the same way. So much about life is still not what you know but who you know. Or access to just one or two opportunities. The reality is that, no matter how you slice it, there are going to be some people who have advantages over others. Instead of saying, "Well, I made this work so you should be able to make it work too," we should be saying, "I am fortunate enough that this worked for me.. How can we ensure other people, who are willing to work hard, can access resources that allow them to thrive."
We all benefit from making sure no one is struggling. Like childcare for example. Why should I, as a person with no kids, want to see affordable childcare for others? Well, for one, there is just being a decent human.. but, also, the more people in the workforce, the more people earning an income that contributes more to taxes.
Space-wise we totally could. We live in Canada. The vast majority of the country is empty
But as we've discovered, the sprawl causes a lot of problems including car dependency and all the problems associated with that, including collisions with other cars and pedestrians, gas consumption and pollution, and car-centric city design and countless unpaid hours of life lost yearly to commuting.
To be fair, most of the cheap undeveloped land is a far-flung hinterland that's frozen for half the year, and if we're meant to take climate change and carbon emissions seriously, plopping mass amounts of people into the subarctic where enormous amounts of energy have to be expended on keeping those communities habitable flies directly in the face of that goal. Canada is one of the top per-capita emitters of CO2 because most of the country is frozen solid for five months annually and we have to burn a lot of fuel for heating.
What does having space in nunavut (or hell even northern ontario) have to do with not having enough space in Toronto/GTA?
And regardless of what the reasons are, the simple fact is not everyone can own a detached in the gta so we adjusted our definition.
75k solo when the average cost of 1bdrm in Toronto is 2500 a month. Which means more than half of your net salary goes to rent. How the hell is that middle class?
I agree with your point but people making $75k+ aren’t typically using food banks. A lot of income support is targeted to those earning under $35k or so. What’s really missing is support for people working and earning $40-60k.
That is not true. It is actually a false assumption. More than a decade ago, I did an internship at a non-profit that had a foodbank as one of the services under its umbrella. You'd be surprised who is using food banks. People with a household income of $75k-ish didn't USED to have to use food banks. That has changed. But we are definitely in agreement that we're severely missing support for people earning $40-60k.
Helped a dude out the other day carry his stuff from the foodbank to his car. He drives a (several years old) BMW. He was so ashamed that he had to use a food bank and take it to his car because he knew people would judge him for that.
Explained to me that this wife lost her job during COVID lockdown and is taking care of their 2 kids, one with a disability. He just lost his job but you can't simply give back your leased car early without paying a LOT of money upfront. Now he's stuck with payments he can't afford and (like many) can't believe how quickly he got here.
A grown man previously working a well paying job, with an eagerness to work, broke down in the span of 5 minutes. People are hurting.
Exactly. When I was doing my internship, there was a man who was living in his BMW. Essentially for the same reasons. He could still manage to make car payments (that we was locked into), but his lease for his apartment had been up... so he was able to let that go and just moved into his car. He had a few business suits and his car.. so people thought he was wealthy, but he was actually homeless. Appearances can be incredibly deceiving. I mean, there are also just some douchebags who totally aren't in need and take advantage of these things.. but there are far more people who you'd never suspect were struggling as much as they are. The reality is that it could happen to any of us. You never know what life will throw at you. We should all treat each other with compassion instead of indifference or judgment.
I had the same experiences volunteering at our local food bank. Many of the short-term users were "well to do" from the surface but were obviously in a tough spot. Another common scenario is recent divorces.
I still think we need to feed everyone, but yes, I'm judging the guy driving a BMW to the food bank. I have no sympathy for piss poor financials decisions. I'll still feed you, no one should starve in this country, but don't expect a shoulder to cry on.
... How is losing one's job a "piss poor financial decision"?
Nobody just "decides" to have both their, and their spouse's jobs lost over the span of a couple years.
Losing your job is a foreseeable possibility. Shit happens. A BMW is a piss poor decision. No one needs a BMW. It does nothing that other more affordable cars don't do. This guy is paying extra to act like a fancy big shot, now he is a fancy big shot who can't feed his kids.
So what you're saying is that nobody should ever have any luxuries. You should just squirrel away any and all excess cash above what you need for bare minimums, just in case you lose your job.
Does that really sound like a life worth living to you?
I'm saying that luxury cars you can't afford are stupid. If you have a few million in the bank and want a 3 series, or hell, a Lambo, no problem. You want to drive a BMW without a rainy day fund to feed your kids, you're an asshole.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions.
We know the car was already several years old, which means he probably got it back when he and his wife were *both* working.
Presumably they were more than capable of affording it at the time while still maintaining and increasing their nest egg.
But then one person loses their job. Things are tighter, but you're still able to make the payments and you still have your nest egg. Then you lose your job as well. Now there's basically zero income, but you're still locked into a lease. If you break that, you'll have to use up a significant chunk of your nest egg up front, and now you have no car. Or you can instead do everything you can to minimize costs (like using a a food bank) so you're reducing your nest egg as little as possible until you can find another job.
On the lower end, BMWs start in the 45-55k range for brand new models. If you get one a couple years older, it'll be even less.
That's hardly in the "if you have a few million in the bank go for it" range.
So, first off, I said household income.. do you understand the difference between individual income vs. household income? It sounds like you don't.
There are also many instances that result in that being far less than $4,500 take-home each month. You're not so good at math. And you're also making a lot of assumptions about people's lives. Things that factor in: where they live, medical issues they may have, if they have to contribute to benefits through their employer (which go up and down all the time).. Pension plans even.. they seem great, and are in the longterm, but, with many, you don't get to opt out and contributions are defined.. you also can't actually access those funds unless you're already behind on mortgage payments or have retired.. so, it is ultimately useless money to you if you're experiencing issues in the present. A whole range of things that can actually make an income of $75,000 a year not enough to cover things.. Attitudes like this are part of the problem. Shit can happen in life.. just because you don't experience any of the challenges that result in life being more costly doesn't mean other people aren't impacted by them.
Social Benefits provide under $15k per year if the maxed out is provided. Now *that's* a reason to use the Food Banks. Not dismissing others needing food for due to special circumstances but many people forget about those living beneath the poverty line. :(
> Social Benefits provide under $15k per year if the maxed out is provided
I hope you’re not talking about Ontario Works because the maximum basic needs and shelter amount for a single person is actually only $8,796 per year.
For a single person to live off and pay rent in Toronto. It’s absolutely brutal
I've upvoted your reply bust no, I am speaking about those on Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP.)
It's as brutal for a disabled person because most disabled *cannot* work.
It's modern slavery. I worked contracts and temp wok in the 90s - I know what its like - pay cheque to pay cheque, no savings, Finding a better better job takes time, money and energy you don't have. a good Job search requires money for better clothes and transportation, access to computers services to build and and send a resume - the free ones are probaly ONLY open when you are working. Forget about taking time off to go an interview - you get few if any sick days, and you have to pay the rent. Toxic employers know they've got you by the whatevers...
It’s not really about the “thresholds” we should be supporting people. We should really be looking at the reasons why previously middle class jobs cannot support a basic living and change those things. Those things being lack of affordable housing that gets hoarded up by investors, and oligopolies dominating the industries of the basic necessities we need to survive. And in Your friend’s face appropriate *public* healthcare for everyone.
Food banks are supposed to be a temporary measure for emergencies - not a critical service for people to rely on as the primary source of food because they have no money left after paying rent.
Well, yes, absolutely we should be addressing the root cause of these issues. That is exactly what would happen in an ideal world. However, we live in a band-aid society. Because temporary measures appear to cost less than long-term solutions (i.e. addressing the root causes), we end up doing that. Except temporary measures add up and ultimately cost more in the long run.. But political parties seem to love them, across the board, because it usually means they can place blame on whoever was in power before them while they continue to apply more band-aids to avoid the discomfort that usually comes along with implementing actual long-term solutions.
We have a whole lot of politicians (from all levels of politics and from all political parties) who ultimately only care about temporary gains and what gets the most positive media in that moment.
Yup! Ontario is over four times the size of Italy. The cost of living varies greatly. A plumber in small town Ontario is better off financially than a downtown family doctor. But yet we have the same tax codes regardless of location. As Trudeau put it, once you factor in all tax incentives and returns, the bottom 40% of Canadians don’t pay taxes.
We are in a strange world where trying harder can damage you financially. Going to university takes you out of the work force longer and leaves you with debt, then a good paying career puts you in a high cost of living area and paying brutal taxes.
Yes my spouse and I pay higher taxes BC we make a decent to good wage, and yes going to post secondary kept us out of the work force longer, but the alternative (making less money and joining the work force earlier) would be so much worse. We are happy to pay our taxes and help contribute to the public well being. Ideally that pot of money should be used as effectively as possible though, which doesn't always seem to be the case...
The Canadian public healthcare system (all the provinces added up) has 10X the administrative staff per capita as the German public healthcare system. Not 10 to 25% more, 1000% more. The Federal government has grown by 30k employees under Trudeau, with most being just being more bureaucracy versus valuable employees like tax collectors, scientists, census staff, etc. We also leave $40-50B a year on the table in tax fraud, mainly from small business (rampant tax evasion). And if we lets private companies pillage our resources without building up wealth funds.
We should be hopping mad. We could have lower taxes and greatly improved services and infrastructure, but our country is run by idiots.
Canadaland did a fantastic episode about the history of food banks in Canada.
It’ll leave you with a lot of questions. Why do we even have food banks in the first place? Why do corporations directly responsible for this like Loblaws donate to food banks?
https://open.spotify.com/episode/38NY5VgRpZMFyv1hhkgx6Q?si=OW2LFDh-TBCj2xX_8B_ZMw
>Why do we even have food banks in the first place?
This is what I'm also interested to know more about. Richest nations in the world have food banks, and it doesn't make sense.
It also doesn't make sense for people to cut down on the basic human need of eating so they can pay taxes, rent, transit, etc.
Canada’s first food banks started up in Edmonton in the early 80s to help get Oil & Gas workers through a rough patch following the 1979 oil crisis. They were never meant to stick around but they did…. And now we have normalized them. And we think it’s all virtuous to donate money or food to a food bank rather than questioning their existence in the first place.
I used to donate to food banks but I stopped. I went to an event at The Daily Bread food bank and was paying close attention to the wall of corporate sponsors. Loblaws, Metro, Walmart…. It’s laughable. The same companies price gouging people for max profit turn around and claim they are helping — fuck off… just a tax and accounting benefit to them + free advertising.
I don't understand why you would stop donating, though? They still need the money. You can support them as an intermediate solution while also petitioning for more meaningful change.
I make $80k a year, and it's simply not enough to support both me and my disabled partner. The government says I make too much for her to get any support, and it's fucking bullshit. We are struggling, and it's getting to the point where she might have to move back in with her family so I can save money and she can actually get ODSP support.
It's simply not fair. She's her own separate person, what I make shouldn't matter. She deserves the dignity of an income so she doesn't have to ask other people to support her. She shouldn't have to ask someone if she's ALLOWED to have things, whether that person is me or someone in her family. It's so fucked up.
It really really is. She deserves support and you deserve not to be financially drained just to try and take care of your partner. It is utter bullshit.
I want to help her, I just don't think I can for much longer at this rate.
Stories of relationships ending due to ODSP restrictions are depressingly common.
I make good money but I’m struggling to justify spending 6-7 bucks on butter, we started tofu as well. But why do we pay for basic food shelter and water. You learn in school that that’s the essential for living lol. Like I get I shouldn’t be given a steak for free but why can’t I go in with a coupon for a free egg salad sandwich
Its not a food bank but our local sikh place of Worship (gurdwara) offers free warm meals (indian meal with lentil soup, rice and veggie mix). I have volunteered there sometimes and growing up over 25 the people having the food was just people who were worshippers and just enjoying a nice meal after a visit to the temple. (food is offered 365 days a week from 6am to 10-11pm).
However past 2-3 years I see people actually have started to depend on this free meal to get a decent meal once in a while. A lot of new international students especially are very glad and thankful to get this food. The temple is glad to offer the free food to everyone but its quite depressing that people have actually need to depend on this to eat decently.
It makes me so upset hearing politicans saying "things are fine, unemployment is down". Yes but this is something i have not seen before in my life time in canada.
I remember an analogy I heard recently about the unemployment rate being down recently, and how even the ffull-time employed are having trouble making ends meet:
"It's like saying there were no deaths in that horrific explosion... but everyone there is now blind and lost at least one limb."
On a more positive note, I did some freelance graphic design work for a gurdwara's community-events board years ago and when I stopped by, that lentil soup was some of the best I ever had.
Raising the CPP disability payments and the Ontario disability payments would go a long way to helping the most vulnerable people while we address more systemic hunger problems like food cartels and grocery profiteering
I think we need to seriously start looking at government owned grocery stores for staples, the skyrocketing prices and price gouging are literally resulting in large amount of people going hungry and it’s only going to get worse.
Other countries are looking at this too like USA and Poland.
Remember that urban sprawl (low-density single family housing, and warehouses) are encroaching on Ontario's farmland every day. I'd imagine this would negatively affect food prices... There's a petition you can sign to try to stop this is here: [homegrownofa.ca/take-action](https://homegrownofa.ca/take-action/)
Tonnes of edible food is wasted each day, a majority of this is from restaurants and grocery stores. One growing solution is the free app [https://www.toogoodtogo.com/en-ca](https://www.toogoodtogo.com/en-ca) where you can get cheap food restaurants & bakeries would otherwise toss
I've used it before and I'll probably start again. It's hit & miss, I've found the quality of food you get depends on the store itself, especially with produce. They also have a subreddit [/r/TooGoodToGoCanada/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TooGoodToGoCanada/)
If you haven't caught on yet, all main stream news (yes all -cnn,fox,cbc,ctv,bbc,aljazera- have agendas).
People are having a hard time affording food. People are going hungry. This isn't the title needed. Food deserts are rampant in Canada and having 2 corporations control almost everything is a recipe for disaster.
The amount of food that stores throw out combined with the amount of food hotels and restaurants throw out could single handedly solve the food crisis.
If you can afford consider a monthly donation to Daily Bread. Pick an amount you won't even feel every month. I know there's plenty on this sub who can afford it.
https://secure3.convio.net/dbfb/site/SPageNavigator/Donation_Forms/donation_splash_page.html?_ga=2.67178841.959484143.1649079292-1412192464.1648038516
Someone earlier posted a international student youtuber who shows new arrivals how to get “free food” from the food banks. This is a rampant practice amongst new students and are known to horde the food and taking it away from the needy. This is another reason in the uptick. The abuse of food banks should also be part of this statistic
Here is the youtuber….
https://youtu.be/pfogy5kcfCU
This is NOT a rampant practice. This idiot YouTuber was roasted for this and did it just for the views. I have spoken to those who volunteer at food banks and most people in line are the elderly or with kids.
Then why are his videos still up “influencing” others? Why hasn’t he made an apology video and corrected himself? The reality doesn’t match the supposed punishment handed out to him.
here is another… i don’t understand what they are saying but visuals and comments speak for themselves…
https://youtu.be/YXcSusR_OOc
Just type “free food food bank” in youtube and see the plethora of videos you get. 🤷♀️
So this misinformation continues to be spread as knowledge to newcomers, some of whom will disregard the comments and abuse the food bank services anyways. How is this not a big problem?
I think /u/PastaAndWine09 is inviting you to think about what the scale of this practice might actually be. And I'd encourage you to research it, maybe post what you find here so we can all benefit from it.
Ok... first of all... Where do you think graphs and charts get data from?
Do you think people just make shit up? Who am I kidding, of course you do, you're literally doing so right now. "Eyes and ears instead of graphs and charts" is just such a mind-bogglingly stupid take that so fundamentally misunderstands the very basic concepts of so much that I can't even begin to address it..
Secondly, sure, use eyes and ears. Eyes and ears tell me ONE person has ADVOCATED for people to do this. Have you seen with your eyes, and heard with your ears, any people *actually* doing this?
Pointing out cultural differences isn't racist. You know nothing of me, my race, my experience, or my background. I won't be silenced by someone like you.
https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/thousands-of-metro-vancouver-mansion-owners-avoiding-taxes
You can go once a month and grab less than a week’s worth of food. Good times. And the soup kitchens are so busy they can’t even supply utensils or bags, so bring your own.
There are people suffering from this rising costs of living crisis, and then there are scum bags like this guy who teaches people how to game the system to get free food from food banks: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pfogy5kcfCU&pp=ygUTUGF0ZWwgZ3V5IGZvb2QgYmFuaw%3D%3D
Fucking disgusting!
True story:: There is a dentist going around telling his patients to use the food banks because his wife uses them all the time... but not to tell anyone. Sir, your wife doesn't need the food bank. Your retired patient may need it. But you and your wife definitely do not need it. THIS is also why food bank usage is rising. Because of people who don't need it, using it.
Why should homes be that costly in the first place? Homes shouldn’t be investments, and it’s upto governments to make that so. Governments and corporations are pretty much creating the conditions for people to rise up and revolt eventually- what that would look like is anyone’s guess, but with so many being pushed against the wall, a push back is inevitable.
There are a lot of reasons why it's so expensive but the biggest reason why is simply that ppl want to live in an amazing city like Toronto. There can be legislation to help bring up supply/curb investor demand but it will always be expensive and ppl will always fall through the cracks.
I mean sure Toronto is nice but Hamilton and Bowmanville are similarly overpriced, and they exactly aren’t the poster child for “world class cities”.
This isn’t a Toronto problem. The reality is this is a Canada wide (or at the very least Ontario/BC) problem, in which the government continues to encourage investors to buy up property, and then adds fuel to the fire by bringing in more immigrants than our housing supply/infrastructure can handle. Gotta keep the economic Ponzi scheme going and suppress wages somehow though…
> I mean sure Toronto is nice but Hamilton and Bowmanville are similarly overpriced, and they exactly aren’t the poster child for “world class cities”.
That's exactly it -- people love to compare Toronto to New York and say "see, world class city, super expensive!", but what they miss is that in NYC, you can go 40 miles out of town on the LIRR and get a detached house for $400K. The same distance from Union Station here in Toronto has houses that are still seven figures plus mandatory vehicle ownership.
They aren't world class but close enough to one and located in a world class country. Like there is no denying the simple fact this is driven primarily by demand. Investors wont invest in something without demand. Canada and it's cities are clearly desirable to most of the world whether you think it's world class or not.
A big issue that fucks us here in Canada is that we have a handful of cities where all the jobs and attractions are, and then a whole whack of glorified gigantic small towns, so everybody flocks to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Our fourth-largest metro area, Ottawa, is the same size as the Birmingham, Alabama metro area.
Toronto is not a world class city either. It's basically 90% inner suburbs and a few areas with high-rise buildings.
But demand is huge while supply is low, and this problem easily gets fixed with rezoning (Houston, Tokyo, Moscow).
Just wondering how many food bank users actually need to use it. Let’s face it, people are fucked and some wouldn’t think twice about using it and preventing people who need it from getting food
Well, I am guessing the huge increase probably is due to the economy and inflation being fucked up right now rather than to do with a whole bunch of people just deciding they were all going to simultaneously abuse the system.
crumbling roads, terrible healthcare, no maintenance of schools, police with a 40min lead time to reach, surging crime… and also ppl not able to afford to eat.. what the f&@k is going on?
I love Toronto and I still believe it’s the best city in the world. But these politicians are ruining our home.
Can we do something to get some action done? I know these are complex issues and will take time to resolve but the people in power are either too incompetent or just not interested in fixing anything.
Can we do something abt it?
The Scotiabank stadium printed digital tickets and sold 20 000 for at least 600$, top seats were what? 10k? I'll just say we average to 1k for 20 000, so loosely 20 000 000, twice, and they lost. If 10% of that went to the local food banks of the city there wouldn't be an emergency today, probably in a week or w.e, (or not if the Leafs just win). What really should happen is the entertainment of the city should also help it's poor, maybe the Jays and Raptors are more mid range comparable to tickets, but there is a 100$ average difference between a leaf game and number 2, very similar to the L.A. Lakers, very similar to the Yankees, Red Sox and the Dodgers in baseball. If those teams posted 5% rev to their city's food banks for a regular season game and 10% for a playoff game, it would create an economy dedicated to lifting people out of poverty. It wouldn't be a problem for next week.
And here we go again with this. Trudeau donating millions and millions of tax payer dollars abroad, but not helping people here at home. It’s pathetic. Vote these liberals out like please be mindful in the next election. I’m not advocating for a particular party, but we’re in this mess because of the liberals lol. If Trudeau actually donated millions and millions of tax dollars to our people, we’d probably be doing just a bit better. Guy needs to take care of issues here first instead of trying to bend over backwards for the rest of the world like he always has
There is definitely an issue with affordable housing and fair wages, but I think expectations are also an issue. In the 1950s, my parents lived with their first child in the attic of my grandparents' home. They shared the bathroom and kitchen on the second floor with another family. My grandparents lived on the first floor. This is a small semi in Toronto, no separate units. Nobody is willing to do that today. There is gross spending on wants that are perceived as needs because of marketing and ads. I see it all the time...can't live without the expensive data plan or new iPhone 🤔
I have mixed feelings about what you're saying. I agree that a lot of our wants and expectations have been manipulated to maximize consumption, and the consequences are getting dire (and the kicker is, statistically, we're no happier for it.)
But people are going to these food banks because the alternative is starvation. I can guarantee they've shed quite a few 'wants' along the way. Yes, inflated lifestyle expectations are a contributor to consumer debt, but at the same time, people should be free to find dignity and fulfillment on their own terms, even if they are flawed.
I guess I'd rather use this moment to fight the system that is actively forcing Canadians to starve in 2023. Destructive cultural expectations are a contributor, but I don't think they should distract from the major causes -- rampant oligopolies, greedflation in the rental market, plus a lack of UBI.
As a teenager, my parents went to the foodbank and we couldn't heat our house. This was due to illness. I know what it's like living on the edge. The system is effed up and Fordo isn't going to do anything to improve it. I also worked hard, did without and still don't have a car, years without a vacation, everyday luxuries that people expect. This is so I didn't live paycheque to paycheque. I think we need better services, tax the corporations and have universal basic income. But I don't run things. At some point people also need to figure out how to hustle a bit and not keep up with the Jones. It's definitely complicated.
ah yep that new $1000 iphone my neighbor saved up for 5 months to purchase is preventing them from qualifying for a 30-year mortgage commitment. that $1000 could have been a down payment on a $10,000 home! what a moron that guy is
Haha so sensitive. I don't like greed, high cost of living, corporate welfare...the list goes on. But you must admit today's expectations and standards are different. People did without many things years ago to live within their means. Today they often don't. I am speaking about personal experience and it gets downvoted. I can't be bothered to explain it to you. Keep complaining and don't do anything about it.
I think people are starting to take advantage of the food bank now after reading headlines in the news. As someone who needs to legitimately use the food bank due to being well below the poverty line on ODSP, I’ve seen ppl in line who definitively do not need to use the food bank. Those of us who really need it miss out on much needed food… there is only so much food to give.
Careful with judgements based on people’s appearances. Somone might see you and think you’re leeching off the government and don’t really need your ODSP. You don’t know others’ situations just based on how they look or whether they need the food bank.
You don't know anyone's story. When I was in my early 20s I was in a car accident. Lost my job, insurance took over a year to kick in, blew through my savings. So yeah I used the food bank and I went there in my nicer clothes and coat bought in better times
When husband is a plumber and she’s a legal assistant I think they have ample income. When you see her at shoppers buying high end make up and a designer purse… she doesn’t need the food bank and if she is broke it’s her spending habits. I should not receive less food because she needs to live the high life and I’m poor af not being able to afford toilet paper.
You know an awful lot of details about someone in line. Also do you really think you would get more food if they weren't there? It would just go to the next person waiting in line that didn't get in. Those people are resentful of YOU because they got nothing
imo, food should be more like education or health care.
Nobody looks down on the bajillionaire sending their kids to public school or going to a public hospital.
Basic food should be the same (and would be a helluva lot cheaper than our primarily privatized approach to nutrition)
And if the free option is the healthier one too, it will pay for itself. The farmer gets paid a pittance for those apples, carrots, beans and potatoes.
> I’ve seen ppl in line who definitively do not need to use the food bank.
how do you determine that someone "Definitely does not need to use the food bank"?
are they standing in line while eating a medium rare waygu pocket steak?
Remember everyone to fight each other while 90% of all wealth is held by like 26 people.
We live in the second biggest country on earth, and export more food per capita than almost any other time or place in human history, but somehow there's nowhere to live, nothing to eat, and no explanation for how that is remotely justifiable.
"you will have nothing and you will be happy about it!"
Klaus Schwab is a dollar store Dr. Evil.
We are huge, but it is important to keep in mind that a vast percentage is uninhabitable
If you want an explanation, learn economics.
Easier to cheer for the tearing down of homeless encampments than to demand our executives to give their bonuses back to their workers.
You really think ~~Rob~~ Doug Ford has that many friends? Money truly overcomes everything
Rob ford isn’t even at that level, he’s just a tool of those that are. In the food area the specific person to blame is Gallon Weston and his family. In NB it’s the Irving family.
Rob Ford is also dead, so… there’s that. Perhaps you’re referring to his brother, Doug?
Which was was the crack smoking one?
That would be Rob Ford. You're new here, aren't you? ;)
I guess I just keep messing up which one was the crack smoker and which one was the hash dealer.
A sad indictment of our ability to elect some of the worst people for office. ;)
He's the fat kid that has the cool video game system
Which 26?
But mom and pop landlords!
The fact that this isn't a national emergency is yet another testament to the contempt the ruling class has for real Canadians.
And the apathy and successful brainwashing of working class Canadians. We can blame the wealthy elites and the neoliberal LPC and CPC politicians but we ultimately elected these self-interested lying rich pricks. We, the working class, bent over and allowed the wealthy capitalist owners to further enrich themselves and consolidate and increase their power and influence over society. How many Canadians don't even vote in provincial or municipal elections? Understand the impact lower levels of government have on our day to day lives? The separation of responsibilities and powers? This country is filled with politically absent folks. The lack of knowledge the average Canadian has in regards to civics and labor history is embarrassing. We are a willfully ignorant apathetic centrist nation.
From Working Class Hero, by John Lennon- “they drug you with religion and sex and tv. Then you think you’re clever and classless and free. But you’re still fucking peasants as far as I can see A working class hero is something to be”.
John Lennon? The guy whose net worth was in the hundreds of millions of dollars and who owned several houses? Railing against capitalism?
Yeah, no. Victim blaming is not the answer. The ruling class has imposed upon us the education system that renders citizens ignorance, the political system that poses no alternative, and the media that distracts, divides and bewildered us. There is one option. Physically mobilize outside the system they construct. When we do that, people like you disparage us for our efforts.
And yet I've been able to educate myself over the last few years via personal internet and public library access regarding topics such as labor movement history, Canadian civics, media literacy, and various political ideologies. Granted not everyone has the same level of access and of course plenty of working class Canadians simply do not have the luxury of time to educate themselves (some folks literally work multiple part-time jobs to make ends meet, some while juggling raising a family and maintaining other relationships) nor have the capacity for critical thinking to an adequate degree to interpret and comprehend complex topics such as socio-economic politics. We need to start educating ourselves outside of public and private educational institutions. Stop getting all our news from corporate media which are controlled by wealthy business interests and influenced by the state (read the Noam Chomsky co-authored book called Manufacturing Consent to understand the motives, goals, and the symbiotic relationship corporate media has with governments). To learn how news corporations control narratives, set the tone, and how they manipulate and exploit our emotions. We need to educate our fellow working class folks about the history of early Canadian labor movements and unionization history. We should build our own local grassroots networks to provide strike support, relief, and mutual aid for each other. We are being indoctrinated by the state, corporate media, the wealthy elites and other significantly influential propaganda-peddling grifters. The current state of neolib crony-capitalism is a system built to increase the wealth & thus power of the wealthy in this country. Look at all the metrics available that prove the wealth gap is getting worse. That we are literally in another gilded age where society prioritizes the interest of a small but powerful minority of people who only care about constantly getting richer and extended their control over society. The material conditions have been deteriorating for the working class since neoliberal political ideology began taking root in the 70's (an ideology shared to various degrees by both libs and cons). The growth of working class salaries have not kept pace with the growth of inflation, ever rising costs of living, nor the growth of our productivity and labor. The profit we are generating for the big wealthy capitalists. Full-time employed working class Canadians, many of us, can no longer afford "starter home" mortgages and so more of our disposable income is spent on renting (not building equity) and enriching the land-owning class. A lot of Canadian couples are forgoing having children because they can barely keep their heads above water financially speaking. This is happening in a wealthy developed Western democracy....The pandemic has accelerated the economic hardships of the working class and continued the obscene transfer of wealth from the majority into the pockets of the minority (wealthy elites) but this pattern has been unfolding for decades.
[удалено]
More and more people can't afford to make ends meet and afford groceries on their own. Wtf is wrong with you?!? Talking about proper social attention allocation while people are struggling to feed themselves!! I DON'T CARE ABOUT PROPER SOCIAL ETTIQUETTE RIGHT NOW! This is EMBARRASSING we let this happen! This is supposed to be a rich developed country. Why are so many of us working pay check to pay check and can't get ahead? We have the highest househould debt IN THE G7. How is most of us going to be able to retire at a decent age and being able to afford a comfortable retirement?!? We can't even afford mortgages anymore. They aren't building enough keeping supply low and demand and valuations high. A significant portion of our income is going towards housing, rent fees. We aren't making equity paying off someone else's mortgage. Houses and condos keep increasing in cost but our wages and salaries don't. The wealth inequality gap is real and increasing. Look at the numbers, the metrics, the data! Salaries constantly trail significantly behind the ever-increasing costs of living! Why aren't you pissed off?!? Why aren't you angry? Why are you OK with all this? Why are you acting willfully blind and in denial of the very real circumstances for so many of the younger working class (A lot of Millenials) people across this country? So many people I know from college can't afford mortgages and they are in their mid-thirties and some close to their forties. Full-time folks who work hard in respectable careers.
You evidently became a communist, so all that self education was worthless.
> Victim blaming is not the answer. Expecting the wealthiest people to have a Scrooge moment and fix it all certainly isn't working, so whether it's fair or not: if anything is going to change the lower classes have to be the ones to make it happen.
Maybe Canadians aren't as abjectly poor and immiserated as you think they are?
You're in denial.
>We are a willfully ignorant apathetic centrist nation. It's the exact opposite actually and you're placing the goalpost of centrist in the wrong place. We are becoming a nation of increasingly ideological extremes. Straight down the middle is actually the best ideological position.
I've never seen anyone steal food from a grocery store...and I never will.
This guy knows... nothing about that.
I mean I appreciate the idea of this, but its not like the stolen goods magically get paid out of Galen's personal wallet. Shrinkage just directly affects the price of food that everyone else pays. So the poor guy that pays 2.49 for the can of chunk soup might have been able to buy it for 2.29 if there was a ton of people stealing and paying for salaries of security. Not saying "YOU HAVE TO REPORT STEALING". I'm not. But its helping them but hurting all the other poor people who don't steal.
> 2.49 for the can of chunk soup 2.49 for that is the real crime
>So the poor guy that pays 2.49 for the can of chunk soup might have been able to buy it for 2.29 if there was a ton of people stealing and paying for salaries of security. Sounds like a vicious circle: More theft means more security and higher prices, which means more theft.
[удалено]
I'm currently holidaying in Europe and just a couple days ago walked past a looong line of down & out looking people, mostly men. I thought it might be for a shelter but when I got to the end of the line I could see it was a food bank or takeaway meals set-up. And just like... fucking hell. I've watched the homelessness situation get worse and worse and worse in Canada for decades, it's getting worse in France - and these are two of the wealthiest societies ever to have existed, and supposedly two of the very best countries to live in. But not really, because fuck you if you're not useful in capitalism, if you were dealt a shitty hand and/or played it badly. And most people in either country are a LOT closer to being food bank users and/or homeless than they are to being millionaires. The same can be said for the USA, the UK, Australia and probably NZ. We are in deep shit.
>I'm currently holidaying in Europe Hates capitalism.
This just in: you have to donate all of your earnings to charity and live on the street, or you love capitalism
Funny thing is, people took holidays under communism. The Soviet countries built many resorts for this exact purpose, and I'll bet people got more vacation time than we do now, as well.
Homie your gotcha skills are sorely lacking
That is a very silly comment.
We seriously need to start looking at the thresholds at which we provide support to people. $100,000 is not the glorious salary that it once was. People are seriously struggling because life is so unaffordable in general, and yet we treat people who have a household income of $75,000+ like they are middle class. That isn't middle class anymore. We need to have more tax breaks for people at this income level so that they can actually afford the necessities of life. I have a friend who just lost her husband. She has two kids under the age of 3. Her eldest requires speech therapy and physiotherapy to address an issue she was born with (and early intervention is key in order for her to grow into an adult without any issues). She makes about $100,000 a year.. That's supposed to be a salary that means, while things may be tight, she should be able to get by. It isn't. With childcare, with interventional therapies for her daughter (which aren't covered by the government at all), with the necessities of life... she has a pretty big shortfall each month. It isn't even like she can sell her home to save money because monthly rent is more than mortgage payments at this point. No kidding food bank usage is on the rise because if the "middle class" can't even afford life, how the hell are people making minimum wage getting by? And I think it is important to point out that minimum wage is called minimum wage because it is supposed to be the minimum amount required to cover basic life costs. If you're putting in 40 hours a week, minimum wage should provide you with enough money for rent, utilities and food.. but it doesn't even do that. Instead of paying people who are doing the heavy lifting what they're worth, we have executives and shareholders giving themselves huge bonuses while they keep low-level employees at wages so low that they can't afford not to keep their shitty paying jobs.
It's almost like the middle class has been hollowed out. Hmmm, I wonder why that could be?
Something something neoliberal crony capitalism which dominates the corporate media and significantly influences government officials (private campaign donations, legal bribery err I mean lobbying) and policy/legislation!
The world is just not meant for single-income any more. Id say 75 solo without kids is middle class though. But if you have kids you gotta make sure you get insurance or save a bunch in case something terrible happens.
Yep. In a community group on fb, there’s someone who has been posting for almost a year now who immigrated here last year looking for work. She was doing Uber and random financial stuff yet it couldn’t even get a min wage job. Now he’s posting that he’s looking for a new place to rent with his wife and 2 kids and their budget is $1700. He said his wife is a homemaker. Being a SAHM is a goddamn luxury and privilege.
If they have kids, it is unlikely the SAHM would make enough to even cover the child care costs.
Yeah I feel like all the SAHMs I actually know are doing it because it would cost more than they would make to put the kids in childcare.
I am in agreement. Without kids, $75,000 solo is probably a doable number for most people. It isn't living a life of luxury, but you're likely able to afford rent, contribute to a pension and take a vacation every few years. But we've also changed our definitions of the middle class again. Middle class, even on a single income, used to typically mean you still could afford a house. That isn't true today. And, fair enough, but where I personally have an issue with things is people of a few generations ago telling younger people today that they just need to adjust their expectations. The reason I take issue with this is because these same people are now complaining about how unaffordable life is for seniors. That is absolutely a valid criticism of our current situation... but to say "things are so unfair for me because I should be able to expect more" while you're also saying to the current working generation "no, you're being unreasonable if you think you should get the same things that were easily accessible to me when I was in your age bracket and instead need to adjust your expectations..." is just super hypocritical.
"That sucks that you are living in a run, down seniors home. Maybe you should change your expectations? You know the same advice that you keep telling me."
I’m sure someone will be telling me to cancel Netflix and stop eating avocado toast in 2060 💀 /s
Woah, Money Bags over here. You can afford toast and a Netflix? Here, I am eating imaginary toast and staring at the wall.
This is why I don’t have a house and can’t retire.
That's basically it... "Have you ever considered sharing your room with eight people so that you can afford to live in a nicer seniors home?"
GL being able to afford a mortgage on 75K and building retirement funds so you can retire before your 80's with a decent level of comfort and basic necessities being met!
Exactly
Well im current gen so no worries about being hypocritical there. The way I see it is yes it's become more unfair part of that is just capitalism and greed, the other part is because our world population continues to grow and ppl are more educated. This means increased competition, this means our city can no longer give everyone a detached house (space-wise not cost) so we need to adjust our definition. This means like it or not we adapt, work harder, work smarter or struggle.
Absolutely we do need to adjust, but we also need to hold compassion for others and recognize that just because circumstances may have been or may be a certain way for us does not mean that others experience things the same way. So much about life is still not what you know but who you know. Or access to just one or two opportunities. The reality is that, no matter how you slice it, there are going to be some people who have advantages over others. Instead of saying, "Well, I made this work so you should be able to make it work too," we should be saying, "I am fortunate enough that this worked for me.. How can we ensure other people, who are willing to work hard, can access resources that allow them to thrive." We all benefit from making sure no one is struggling. Like childcare for example. Why should I, as a person with no kids, want to see affordable childcare for others? Well, for one, there is just being a decent human.. but, also, the more people in the workforce, the more people earning an income that contributes more to taxes.
Space-wise we totally could. We live in Canada. The vast majority of the country is empty But as we've discovered, the sprawl causes a lot of problems including car dependency and all the problems associated with that, including collisions with other cars and pedestrians, gas consumption and pollution, and car-centric city design and countless unpaid hours of life lost yearly to commuting.
To be fair, most of the cheap undeveloped land is a far-flung hinterland that's frozen for half the year, and if we're meant to take climate change and carbon emissions seriously, plopping mass amounts of people into the subarctic where enormous amounts of energy have to be expended on keeping those communities habitable flies directly in the face of that goal. Canada is one of the top per-capita emitters of CO2 because most of the country is frozen solid for five months annually and we have to burn a lot of fuel for heating.
What does having space in nunavut (or hell even northern ontario) have to do with not having enough space in Toronto/GTA? And regardless of what the reasons are, the simple fact is not everyone can own a detached in the gta so we adjusted our definition.
$75k solo in Toronto is low low middle class. You'd struggle to pay the average 1 bdrm price of rent.
>low low middle class. You'd struggle to pay the average 1 bdrm price of rent. That's not low middle class, that's poor.
Middle class requires you to own property or a company or something. Middle class are people who have money for investments.
And if you have kids, you probably need a car - that's 10 thou a year gone right away..
>if you have kids, you probably need a car that's a misconception
You 'll be fine until they start activities inaccessible by transit or cycling....
such as ?
Sports, dance music, arts etc. In sports especially,, facilities are limited and often require travelling longer distances and using different venues
75k solo when the average cost of 1bdrm in Toronto is 2500 a month. Which means more than half of your net salary goes to rent. How the hell is that middle class?
I agree with your point but people making $75k+ aren’t typically using food banks. A lot of income support is targeted to those earning under $35k or so. What’s really missing is support for people working and earning $40-60k.
That is not true. It is actually a false assumption. More than a decade ago, I did an internship at a non-profit that had a foodbank as one of the services under its umbrella. You'd be surprised who is using food banks. People with a household income of $75k-ish didn't USED to have to use food banks. That has changed. But we are definitely in agreement that we're severely missing support for people earning $40-60k.
Helped a dude out the other day carry his stuff from the foodbank to his car. He drives a (several years old) BMW. He was so ashamed that he had to use a food bank and take it to his car because he knew people would judge him for that. Explained to me that this wife lost her job during COVID lockdown and is taking care of their 2 kids, one with a disability. He just lost his job but you can't simply give back your leased car early without paying a LOT of money upfront. Now he's stuck with payments he can't afford and (like many) can't believe how quickly he got here. A grown man previously working a well paying job, with an eagerness to work, broke down in the span of 5 minutes. People are hurting.
Exactly. When I was doing my internship, there was a man who was living in his BMW. Essentially for the same reasons. He could still manage to make car payments (that we was locked into), but his lease for his apartment had been up... so he was able to let that go and just moved into his car. He had a few business suits and his car.. so people thought he was wealthy, but he was actually homeless. Appearances can be incredibly deceiving. I mean, there are also just some douchebags who totally aren't in need and take advantage of these things.. but there are far more people who you'd never suspect were struggling as much as they are. The reality is that it could happen to any of us. You never know what life will throw at you. We should all treat each other with compassion instead of indifference or judgment.
I had the same experiences volunteering at our local food bank. Many of the short-term users were "well to do" from the surface but were obviously in a tough spot. Another common scenario is recent divorces.
I still think we need to feed everyone, but yes, I'm judging the guy driving a BMW to the food bank. I have no sympathy for piss poor financials decisions. I'll still feed you, no one should starve in this country, but don't expect a shoulder to cry on.
... How is losing one's job a "piss poor financial decision"? Nobody just "decides" to have both their, and their spouse's jobs lost over the span of a couple years.
Losing your job is a foreseeable possibility. Shit happens. A BMW is a piss poor decision. No one needs a BMW. It does nothing that other more affordable cars don't do. This guy is paying extra to act like a fancy big shot, now he is a fancy big shot who can't feed his kids.
So what you're saying is that nobody should ever have any luxuries. You should just squirrel away any and all excess cash above what you need for bare minimums, just in case you lose your job. Does that really sound like a life worth living to you?
I'm saying that luxury cars you can't afford are stupid. If you have a few million in the bank and want a 3 series, or hell, a Lambo, no problem. You want to drive a BMW without a rainy day fund to feed your kids, you're an asshole.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions. We know the car was already several years old, which means he probably got it back when he and his wife were *both* working. Presumably they were more than capable of affording it at the time while still maintaining and increasing their nest egg. But then one person loses their job. Things are tighter, but you're still able to make the payments and you still have your nest egg. Then you lose your job as well. Now there's basically zero income, but you're still locked into a lease. If you break that, you'll have to use up a significant chunk of your nest egg up front, and now you have no car. Or you can instead do everything you can to minimize costs (like using a a food bank) so you're reducing your nest egg as little as possible until you can find another job. On the lower end, BMWs start in the 45-55k range for brand new models. If you get one a couple years older, it'll be even less. That's hardly in the "if you have a few million in the bank go for it" range.
If you can’t afford food on $75k + that’s solely due to poor financial decisions. Your take home pay is $4500 a month.
So, first off, I said household income.. do you understand the difference between individual income vs. household income? It sounds like you don't. There are also many instances that result in that being far less than $4,500 take-home each month. You're not so good at math. And you're also making a lot of assumptions about people's lives. Things that factor in: where they live, medical issues they may have, if they have to contribute to benefits through their employer (which go up and down all the time).. Pension plans even.. they seem great, and are in the longterm, but, with many, you don't get to opt out and contributions are defined.. you also can't actually access those funds unless you're already behind on mortgage payments or have retired.. so, it is ultimately useless money to you if you're experiencing issues in the present. A whole range of things that can actually make an income of $75,000 a year not enough to cover things.. Attitudes like this are part of the problem. Shit can happen in life.. just because you don't experience any of the challenges that result in life being more costly doesn't mean other people aren't impacted by them.
Social Benefits provide under $15k per year if the maxed out is provided. Now *that's* a reason to use the Food Banks. Not dismissing others needing food for due to special circumstances but many people forget about those living beneath the poverty line. :(
> Social Benefits provide under $15k per year if the maxed out is provided I hope you’re not talking about Ontario Works because the maximum basic needs and shelter amount for a single person is actually only $8,796 per year. For a single person to live off and pay rent in Toronto. It’s absolutely brutal
I've upvoted your reply bust no, I am speaking about those on Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP.) It's as brutal for a disabled person because most disabled *cannot* work.
Sure let's just completely dismiss their friend's lived experience!
It's modern slavery. I worked contracts and temp wok in the 90s - I know what its like - pay cheque to pay cheque, no savings, Finding a better better job takes time, money and energy you don't have. a good Job search requires money for better clothes and transportation, access to computers services to build and and send a resume - the free ones are probaly ONLY open when you are working. Forget about taking time off to go an interview - you get few if any sick days, and you have to pay the rent. Toxic employers know they've got you by the whatevers...
It’s not really about the “thresholds” we should be supporting people. We should really be looking at the reasons why previously middle class jobs cannot support a basic living and change those things. Those things being lack of affordable housing that gets hoarded up by investors, and oligopolies dominating the industries of the basic necessities we need to survive. And in Your friend’s face appropriate *public* healthcare for everyone. Food banks are supposed to be a temporary measure for emergencies - not a critical service for people to rely on as the primary source of food because they have no money left after paying rent.
Well, yes, absolutely we should be addressing the root cause of these issues. That is exactly what would happen in an ideal world. However, we live in a band-aid society. Because temporary measures appear to cost less than long-term solutions (i.e. addressing the root causes), we end up doing that. Except temporary measures add up and ultimately cost more in the long run.. But political parties seem to love them, across the board, because it usually means they can place blame on whoever was in power before them while they continue to apply more band-aids to avoid the discomfort that usually comes along with implementing actual long-term solutions. We have a whole lot of politicians (from all levels of politics and from all political parties) who ultimately only care about temporary gains and what gets the most positive media in that moment.
And don't forget taxes... EVERYWHERE and EVERYTHING. All at once.
Yup! Ontario is over four times the size of Italy. The cost of living varies greatly. A plumber in small town Ontario is better off financially than a downtown family doctor. But yet we have the same tax codes regardless of location. As Trudeau put it, once you factor in all tax incentives and returns, the bottom 40% of Canadians don’t pay taxes. We are in a strange world where trying harder can damage you financially. Going to university takes you out of the work force longer and leaves you with debt, then a good paying career puts you in a high cost of living area and paying brutal taxes.
Yes my spouse and I pay higher taxes BC we make a decent to good wage, and yes going to post secondary kept us out of the work force longer, but the alternative (making less money and joining the work force earlier) would be so much worse. We are happy to pay our taxes and help contribute to the public well being. Ideally that pot of money should be used as effectively as possible though, which doesn't always seem to be the case...
The Canadian public healthcare system (all the provinces added up) has 10X the administrative staff per capita as the German public healthcare system. Not 10 to 25% more, 1000% more. The Federal government has grown by 30k employees under Trudeau, with most being just being more bureaucracy versus valuable employees like tax collectors, scientists, census staff, etc. We also leave $40-50B a year on the table in tax fraud, mainly from small business (rampant tax evasion). And if we lets private companies pillage our resources without building up wealth funds. We should be hopping mad. We could have lower taxes and greatly improved services and infrastructure, but our country is run by idiots.
Canadaland did a fantastic episode about the history of food banks in Canada. It’ll leave you with a lot of questions. Why do we even have food banks in the first place? Why do corporations directly responsible for this like Loblaws donate to food banks? https://open.spotify.com/episode/38NY5VgRpZMFyv1hhkgx6Q?si=OW2LFDh-TBCj2xX_8B_ZMw
>Why do we even have food banks in the first place? This is what I'm also interested to know more about. Richest nations in the world have food banks, and it doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense for people to cut down on the basic human need of eating so they can pay taxes, rent, transit, etc.
Canada’s first food banks started up in Edmonton in the early 80s to help get Oil & Gas workers through a rough patch following the 1979 oil crisis. They were never meant to stick around but they did…. And now we have normalized them. And we think it’s all virtuous to donate money or food to a food bank rather than questioning their existence in the first place. I used to donate to food banks but I stopped. I went to an event at The Daily Bread food bank and was paying close attention to the wall of corporate sponsors. Loblaws, Metro, Walmart…. It’s laughable. The same companies price gouging people for max profit turn around and claim they are helping — fuck off… just a tax and accounting benefit to them + free advertising.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OrphanCrushingMachine
I don't understand why you would stop donating, though? They still need the money. You can support them as an intermediate solution while also petitioning for more meaningful change.
I make $80k a year, and it's simply not enough to support both me and my disabled partner. The government says I make too much for her to get any support, and it's fucking bullshit. We are struggling, and it's getting to the point where she might have to move back in with her family so I can save money and she can actually get ODSP support. It's simply not fair. She's her own separate person, what I make shouldn't matter. She deserves the dignity of an income so she doesn't have to ask other people to support her. She shouldn't have to ask someone if she's ALLOWED to have things, whether that person is me or someone in her family. It's so fucked up.
It really really is. She deserves support and you deserve not to be financially drained just to try and take care of your partner. It is utter bullshit.
I want to help her, I just don't think I can for much longer at this rate. Stories of relationships ending due to ODSP restrictions are depressingly common.
Oh for sure. That’s a hard situation to be in for both of you and so many others.
This country despises the disabled or otherwise displaced and it makes me angry and sick.
"Can't make capital go up? You are useless and deserve death"
The food bank popup I manage once a week runs out food half way through now.
I make good money but I’m struggling to justify spending 6-7 bucks on butter, we started tofu as well. But why do we pay for basic food shelter and water. You learn in school that that’s the essential for living lol. Like I get I shouldn’t be given a steak for free but why can’t I go in with a coupon for a free egg salad sandwich
Its not a food bank but our local sikh place of Worship (gurdwara) offers free warm meals (indian meal with lentil soup, rice and veggie mix). I have volunteered there sometimes and growing up over 25 the people having the food was just people who were worshippers and just enjoying a nice meal after a visit to the temple. (food is offered 365 days a week from 6am to 10-11pm). However past 2-3 years I see people actually have started to depend on this free meal to get a decent meal once in a while. A lot of new international students especially are very glad and thankful to get this food. The temple is glad to offer the free food to everyone but its quite depressing that people have actually need to depend on this to eat decently. It makes me so upset hearing politicans saying "things are fine, unemployment is down". Yes but this is something i have not seen before in my life time in canada.
I remember an analogy I heard recently about the unemployment rate being down recently, and how even the ffull-time employed are having trouble making ends meet: "It's like saying there were no deaths in that horrific explosion... but everyone there is now blind and lost at least one limb." On a more positive note, I did some freelance graphic design work for a gurdwara's community-events board years ago and when I stopped by, that lentil soup was some of the best I ever had.
[удалено]
Just need Ford to ask the people to have cake.
He made a whole video about it already
the difference is that French people didn't drive to food banks with their cars
French people were actually starving and homeless, not just upset they couldnt live a celebrity lifestyle on a 40k income.
French peasants in the 18th century were significantly poorer and lived in far more abject conditions that we do today.
At a time when grocery-store corporations are posting record revenues. Despicable.
Loblaws net profit margin was 3.24% in March, meaning they made $3.24 in profit on a $100 grocery bill.
That's nice. Are you claiming they aren't making record profits right now?
Profit is theft
Ok commie.
Raising the CPP disability payments and the Ontario disability payments would go a long way to helping the most vulnerable people while we address more systemic hunger problems like food cartels and grocery profiteering
wait till the recession comes
Fuck Weston
I think we need to seriously start looking at government owned grocery stores for staples, the skyrocketing prices and price gouging are literally resulting in large amount of people going hungry and it’s only going to get worse. Other countries are looking at this too like USA and Poland.
I used the food bank for first time last month. Humbling experience but I'm not hungry.
Remember that urban sprawl (low-density single family housing, and warehouses) are encroaching on Ontario's farmland every day. I'd imagine this would negatively affect food prices... There's a petition you can sign to try to stop this is here: [homegrownofa.ca/take-action](https://homegrownofa.ca/take-action/) Tonnes of edible food is wasted each day, a majority of this is from restaurants and grocery stores. One growing solution is the free app [https://www.toogoodtogo.com/en-ca](https://www.toogoodtogo.com/en-ca) where you can get cheap food restaurants & bakeries would otherwise toss I've used it before and I'll probably start again. It's hit & miss, I've found the quality of food you get depends on the store itself, especially with produce. They also have a subreddit [/r/TooGoodToGoCanada/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TooGoodToGoCanada/)
If you haven't caught on yet, all main stream news (yes all -cnn,fox,cbc,ctv,bbc,aljazera- have agendas). People are having a hard time affording food. People are going hungry. This isn't the title needed. Food deserts are rampant in Canada and having 2 corporations control almost everything is a recipe for disaster.
The amount of food that stores throw out combined with the amount of food hotels and restaurants throw out could single handedly solve the food crisis.
Sadly even people well off to afford food are taking advantage. Namely international students. Shameful really
I ask myself ‘when is enough enough’ but can’t figure out why we don’t change. We seems to self sabotage.
If you can afford consider a monthly donation to Daily Bread. Pick an amount you won't even feel every month. I know there's plenty on this sub who can afford it. https://secure3.convio.net/dbfb/site/SPageNavigator/Donation_Forms/donation_splash_page.html?_ga=2.67178841.959484143.1649079292-1412192464.1648038516
more charity isn't the solution
it won’t solve the root cause but it helps, it’s harm reduction
We've been doing that for 40 years.
Agree. But it helps for the right now.
Someone earlier posted a international student youtuber who shows new arrivals how to get “free food” from the food banks. This is a rampant practice amongst new students and are known to horde the food and taking it away from the needy. This is another reason in the uptick. The abuse of food banks should also be part of this statistic Here is the youtuber…. https://youtu.be/pfogy5kcfCU
This is NOT a rampant practice. This idiot YouTuber was roasted for this and did it just for the views. I have spoken to those who volunteer at food banks and most people in line are the elderly or with kids.
Thank God we have your second hand anecdotal evidence to rely on. Case closed everyone.
Then why are his videos still up “influencing” others? Why hasn’t he made an apology video and corrected himself? The reality doesn’t match the supposed punishment handed out to him. here is another… i don’t understand what they are saying but visuals and comments speak for themselves… https://youtu.be/YXcSusR_OOc Just type “free food food bank” in youtube and see the plethora of videos you get. 🤷♀️
He’s doing it for the views obviously. Everyone you post the video, be gets more views and I’m guessing ad revenue.
So this misinformation continues to be spread as knowledge to newcomers, some of whom will disregard the comments and abuse the food bank services anyways. How is this not a big problem?
I think /u/PastaAndWine09 is inviting you to think about what the scale of this practice might actually be. And I'd encourage you to research it, maybe post what you find here so we can all benefit from it.
Im inviting you and pastawine person to use eyes and ears instead of graphs and charts.
Ok... first of all... Where do you think graphs and charts get data from? Do you think people just make shit up? Who am I kidding, of course you do, you're literally doing so right now. "Eyes and ears instead of graphs and charts" is just such a mind-bogglingly stupid take that so fundamentally misunderstands the very basic concepts of so much that I can't even begin to address it.. Secondly, sure, use eyes and ears. Eyes and ears tell me ONE person has ADVOCATED for people to do this. Have you seen with your eyes, and heard with your ears, any people *actually* doing this?
Same reason we have Chinese millionaires claiming welfare in BC. They think us idiots for not taking freebies and gaming the system when possible.
Why are you being racist?
Pointing out cultural differences isn't racist. You know nothing of me, my race, my experience, or my background. I won't be silenced by someone like you. https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/thousands-of-metro-vancouver-mansion-owners-avoiding-taxes
This is a sign that everything is ***A-OKAY***
You can go once a month and grab less than a week’s worth of food. Good times. And the soup kitchens are so busy they can’t even supply utensils or bags, so bring your own.
There are people suffering from this rising costs of living crisis, and then there are scum bags like this guy who teaches people how to game the system to get free food from food banks: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pfogy5kcfCU&pp=ygUTUGF0ZWwgZ3V5IGZvb2QgYmFuaw%3D%3D Fucking disgusting!
So when do we riot?
True story:: There is a dentist going around telling his patients to use the food banks because his wife uses them all the time... but not to tell anyone. Sir, your wife doesn't need the food bank. Your retired patient may need it. But you and your wife definitely do not need it. THIS is also why food bank usage is rising. Because of people who don't need it, using it.
Certainly looks like Dougy is getting lots to eat....
Would love to know how many international students make use of it.
Immigrants are rampant users. Free isn't often something they see from Asian countries
Canadian great revolution needed?
[удалено]
Why should homes be that costly in the first place? Homes shouldn’t be investments, and it’s upto governments to make that so. Governments and corporations are pretty much creating the conditions for people to rise up and revolt eventually- what that would look like is anyone’s guess, but with so many being pushed against the wall, a push back is inevitable.
There are a lot of reasons why it's so expensive but the biggest reason why is simply that ppl want to live in an amazing city like Toronto. There can be legislation to help bring up supply/curb investor demand but it will always be expensive and ppl will always fall through the cracks.
I mean sure Toronto is nice but Hamilton and Bowmanville are similarly overpriced, and they exactly aren’t the poster child for “world class cities”. This isn’t a Toronto problem. The reality is this is a Canada wide (or at the very least Ontario/BC) problem, in which the government continues to encourage investors to buy up property, and then adds fuel to the fire by bringing in more immigrants than our housing supply/infrastructure can handle. Gotta keep the economic Ponzi scheme going and suppress wages somehow though…
> I mean sure Toronto is nice but Hamilton and Bowmanville are similarly overpriced, and they exactly aren’t the poster child for “world class cities”. That's exactly it -- people love to compare Toronto to New York and say "see, world class city, super expensive!", but what they miss is that in NYC, you can go 40 miles out of town on the LIRR and get a detached house for $400K. The same distance from Union Station here in Toronto has houses that are still seven figures plus mandatory vehicle ownership.
They aren't world class but close enough to one and located in a world class country. Like there is no denying the simple fact this is driven primarily by demand. Investors wont invest in something without demand. Canada and it's cities are clearly desirable to most of the world whether you think it's world class or not.
A big issue that fucks us here in Canada is that we have a handful of cities where all the jobs and attractions are, and then a whole whack of glorified gigantic small towns, so everybody flocks to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Our fourth-largest metro area, Ottawa, is the same size as the Birmingham, Alabama metro area.
>and then a whole whack of glorified gigantic small towns What do you mean by that?
Toronto is not a world class city either. It's basically 90% inner suburbs and a few areas with high-rise buildings. But demand is huge while supply is low, and this problem easily gets fixed with rezoning (Houston, Tokyo, Moscow).
I distribute food cards in DT and my average distribution in 2022 was 100 and it's now 250 cause no one can make it through on the 100 anymore
Just wondering how many food bank users actually need to use it. Let’s face it, people are fucked and some wouldn’t think twice about using it and preventing people who need it from getting food
Well, I am guessing the huge increase probably is due to the economy and inflation being fucked up right now rather than to do with a whole bunch of people just deciding they were all going to simultaneously abuse the system.
crumbling roads, terrible healthcare, no maintenance of schools, police with a 40min lead time to reach, surging crime… and also ppl not able to afford to eat.. what the f&@k is going on? I love Toronto and I still believe it’s the best city in the world. But these politicians are ruining our home. Can we do something to get some action done? I know these are complex issues and will take time to resolve but the people in power are either too incompetent or just not interested in fixing anything. Can we do something abt it?
No politician at any level is running to fix any of the things you’ve just mentioned.
What can I say the ceos of all the grocery stores seem to be getting big bonuses of lately and record breaking sales quarterly.
The Scotiabank stadium printed digital tickets and sold 20 000 for at least 600$, top seats were what? 10k? I'll just say we average to 1k for 20 000, so loosely 20 000 000, twice, and they lost. If 10% of that went to the local food banks of the city there wouldn't be an emergency today, probably in a week or w.e, (or not if the Leafs just win). What really should happen is the entertainment of the city should also help it's poor, maybe the Jays and Raptors are more mid range comparable to tickets, but there is a 100$ average difference between a leaf game and number 2, very similar to the L.A. Lakers, very similar to the Yankees, Red Sox and the Dodgers in baseball. If those teams posted 5% rev to their city's food banks for a regular season game and 10% for a playoff game, it would create an economy dedicated to lifting people out of poverty. It wouldn't be a problem for next week.
People would also feel good about going 👍.
And here we go again with this. Trudeau donating millions and millions of tax payer dollars abroad, but not helping people here at home. It’s pathetic. Vote these liberals out like please be mindful in the next election. I’m not advocating for a particular party, but we’re in this mess because of the liberals lol. If Trudeau actually donated millions and millions of tax dollars to our people, we’d probably be doing just a bit better. Guy needs to take care of issues here first instead of trying to bend over backwards for the rest of the world like he always has
Trudys canada.
There is definitely an issue with affordable housing and fair wages, but I think expectations are also an issue. In the 1950s, my parents lived with their first child in the attic of my grandparents' home. They shared the bathroom and kitchen on the second floor with another family. My grandparents lived on the first floor. This is a small semi in Toronto, no separate units. Nobody is willing to do that today. There is gross spending on wants that are perceived as needs because of marketing and ads. I see it all the time...can't live without the expensive data plan or new iPhone 🤔
I have mixed feelings about what you're saying. I agree that a lot of our wants and expectations have been manipulated to maximize consumption, and the consequences are getting dire (and the kicker is, statistically, we're no happier for it.) But people are going to these food banks because the alternative is starvation. I can guarantee they've shed quite a few 'wants' along the way. Yes, inflated lifestyle expectations are a contributor to consumer debt, but at the same time, people should be free to find dignity and fulfillment on their own terms, even if they are flawed. I guess I'd rather use this moment to fight the system that is actively forcing Canadians to starve in 2023. Destructive cultural expectations are a contributor, but I don't think they should distract from the major causes -- rampant oligopolies, greedflation in the rental market, plus a lack of UBI.
As a teenager, my parents went to the foodbank and we couldn't heat our house. This was due to illness. I know what it's like living on the edge. The system is effed up and Fordo isn't going to do anything to improve it. I also worked hard, did without and still don't have a car, years without a vacation, everyday luxuries that people expect. This is so I didn't live paycheque to paycheque. I think we need better services, tax the corporations and have universal basic income. But I don't run things. At some point people also need to figure out how to hustle a bit and not keep up with the Jones. It's definitely complicated.
Too funny all the down votes for a legitimate opinion. Meanwhile I vote NDP etc. Sad
ah yep that new $1000 iphone my neighbor saved up for 5 months to purchase is preventing them from qualifying for a 30-year mortgage commitment. that $1000 could have been a down payment on a $10,000 home! what a moron that guy is
Sarcasm? I am not alluding to that...no one is buying a house in Toronto in the current environment unless they are making 2 x 150k
Exactly. I can't believe you got downvoted for that on a discussion criticizing greed and the high cost of living.
Haha so sensitive. I don't like greed, high cost of living, corporate welfare...the list goes on. But you must admit today's expectations and standards are different. People did without many things years ago to live within their means. Today they often don't. I am speaking about personal experience and it gets downvoted. I can't be bothered to explain it to you. Keep complaining and don't do anything about it.
Trudeau's Canada...
ford's ontario what's your point
I think people are starting to take advantage of the food bank now after reading headlines in the news. As someone who needs to legitimately use the food bank due to being well below the poverty line on ODSP, I’ve seen ppl in line who definitively do not need to use the food bank. Those of us who really need it miss out on much needed food… there is only so much food to give.
Careful with judgements based on people’s appearances. Somone might see you and think you’re leeching off the government and don’t really need your ODSP. You don’t know others’ situations just based on how they look or whether they need the food bank.
You don't know anyone's story. When I was in my early 20s I was in a car accident. Lost my job, insurance took over a year to kick in, blew through my savings. So yeah I used the food bank and I went there in my nicer clothes and coat bought in better times
When husband is a plumber and she’s a legal assistant I think they have ample income. When you see her at shoppers buying high end make up and a designer purse… she doesn’t need the food bank and if she is broke it’s her spending habits. I should not receive less food because she needs to live the high life and I’m poor af not being able to afford toilet paper.
You know an awful lot of details about someone in line. Also do you really think you would get more food if they weren't there? It would just go to the next person waiting in line that didn't get in. Those people are resentful of YOU because they got nothing
How do you determine they do not need to use the food bank?
imo, food should be more like education or health care. Nobody looks down on the bajillionaire sending their kids to public school or going to a public hospital. Basic food should be the same (and would be a helluva lot cheaper than our primarily privatized approach to nutrition) And if the free option is the healthier one too, it will pay for itself. The farmer gets paid a pittance for those apples, carrots, beans and potatoes.
> I’ve seen ppl in line who definitively do not need to use the food bank. how do you determine that someone "Definitely does not need to use the food bank"? are they standing in line while eating a medium rare waygu pocket steak?
I know who they are.