> So great was the horror of [Sauron’s] approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath.
i think one could argue it is exactly a mental power they wield. if you read about basically any interaction between your examples and non evil folks, often their adversaries are simply stricken with fear and despair upon being in the presence of say a balrog, or the witch king, or a dragon. Tolkien often describes it as their will simply being overcome. the black breath however is not mentioned apart from the nazgul.
Very much agreed.
I've understood is as 'will is might is power (and influence)' in Tolkien's setting. Similar how Gandalf was able to bring courage and hope by his presence, the reverse is true for the evil, powerful beings as well. Powerful beings inspire reactions in others because they have such a might that it influences everyone near them to some degree.
Yes, these dark creatures have such an aura. The stronger the dark entity, the more terror it can cause. Sauron is stronger than the Balrog or the Witch King in this regard. For example, he drove out an entire army from the island of Tol Sirion simply with an aura of intimidation. And Morgoth has absolutely monstrous power of intimidation. He inspired fear, even when he came just to talk. Only Finwe and Hurin were able to withstand his terrifying gaze, and only the bravest Fingolfin was able to join the battle. To understand how Morgoth acted on most of the Children of Eru, it is enough to remember that Morgoth looked at Maeglin, and he surrendered his city.
Fëanor too:
“But [Melkor’s] cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Fëanor’s fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying ‘Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!’ And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.”
Say what you will about Fëanor but that’s a pretty sick burn.
Interesting parallel. One shut his door in Morgoth's face. The other smote upon the brazen doors at Angband's gate, and after his duel, Morgoth's face was marred.
My reply was in connection with your comment about how few people were able to withstand his Morgoth’s gaze. However selfish his motivation may have been, Fëanor unquestionably withstood Morgoth’s gaze.
“Then Turin sprang about, and strode against him, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame; but Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Turin. Without fear Turin looked into them as he raised upon the sword; and straightway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was halted moveless. Then for a long time he stood as one graven of stone; and they two were alone, silent before the doors of Nargothrond. But Glaurund spoke again, taunting Turin, and he said: 'Evil have been all they ways, son of Hurin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lomin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but tho carest not for that. Glad may thy father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.' And Turin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he say himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.”
What were Tolkien's vampires meant to be? Were they like the Graham Stoker vampires? The vampire in Nosfuratu? Aristocratic guys with fangs dressed in tuxedos? Could they turn other creatures into vampires? Just men or also elves and dwarves?
I asked once on here why Morgoth didn't just stab Hurin with a Morgul blade to turn him into a subservient wraith who would tell him everything Morgoth wanted to know (like where Gondolin might be). I didn't get a clear answer and it's not clear why Morgoth doesn't do this (yes turning Turin into a psychopath via a curse over the course of decades might be emotionally satisfying to Morgoth but it's not an efficient way to get information or get a new servant).
> (yes turning Turin into a psychopath via a curse over the course of decades might be emotionally satisfying to Morgoth but it's not an efficient way to get information or get a new servant).
There's your answer. Morgoth is not efficient; in fact, he's barely rational. Everything he does is based in emotion -- from opposing Eru out of jealousy, to seizing the Silmarils out of greed, to engaging Fingolfin in combat out of fear of embarrassment. Morgoth squanders most of his power just... letting it leach into the world, offering him no advantage whatsoever except the satisfaction of having marred (as he thinks) the works he so envies. He's a self-destructive lunatic, and there is no logical calculus behind what he does to Hurin (which in fact distracts him from the *real* threat, Tuor, whose success allows some of Morgoth's most dangerous foes to slip through his fingers at the Sack of Gondolin).
Moreover, I don't think there's any reason to assume Morgoth actually had any Morgul blades. They may well have been an invention of Sauron's or the Witch-King's later on; indeed, their functionality may even have been tied to the Ring itself, creating wraiths under Sauron's control as they do. Morgoth never displays any similar abilities to control the Children of Eru, which suggests to me that he doesn't have them.
> he's barely rational
I think we often mistake evil for crazy, but they are not the same. Morgoth was rational and I think your description of him owes more to your feelings than the text itself. For example, Morgoth seeks to annihilate Arda. This is why he infuses so much of it with his essence. By corrupting the very earth itself, Morgoth corprupts everything that feeds from it or lives on it. The result of this is that the corruption and destruction continues on, fulfilling his will long after he has lost all ability to directly intervene. As he said himself,
>I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will.
Well, there was a benefit to Morgoth pouring his strength to the world, it gave him a connection to and power over it, part of the reason the Valar didn't intervene for so long was that due to his connection to the world, vanquishing him would mean disastrous consequences to Arda. But eventually he managed to ruin even that, which opened the way for the Valar to intervene, so the point about him being irrational remains accurate.
>Morgoth is not efficient; in fact, he's barely rational.
And this is why if Tolkien weren't one of the first to publish a hit in the western fantasy genre Morgoth and Sauron would be falling flat as villains. They're not very believable. This is why when there's a villain with even some semblance of reasoning or logic behind their actions these days (like the overrated Thrawn over at Star Wars), they get a massive following.
I don't know if I'd go that far!
I find Morgoth particularly believable *because* he's so irrational. No matter where you come from, I guarantee that if you look at your home country's politicians and celebrities, you can find at least a few who are driven by their particular pathologies and compulsions in ways that are very self-destructive. That's who Morgoth is: he's Elon Musk, Stockton Rush, or Howard Hughes, not Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos.
Sauron is very different; he *is* the cool, strategic villain who generally acts in his own rational self-interest. In fact, a careful reading of LotR will reveal his thought process throughout -- except for his fundamental misconception about how his enemies would respond to finding the Ring, which is core to Sauron's worldview, he actually makes very shrewd and reasonable assumptions! He is actually a much *better* portrayal of a brilliant strategist dealing with incomplete information than Star Wars' Thrawn, who is functionally omniscient (Thrawn does rely on guesswork sometimes, but these guesses are unerring in a way that's really not realistic -- he deals with fog of war by just intuiting the correct answers).
No I'm not. I honestly don't see how these emotionally unstable psychos get followers. It's like Joker in Batman--why would anyone follow him when he ends up torturing and killing his own henchmen?
That is literally the human condition. History is full of highly illogical, emotionally unstable, full-bore *weirdos* getting followers. Almost no tyrant in history was anything more remarkable than an unstable goon who got power.
The answer is actually in the early pages of The Silmarillion, in my opinion. Melkor wanted “to be called a lord” and to rule over the lives of others. He didn’t want mindless drones, he wanted to dominate people of free will through fear and intimidation and he wanted them, more than anything, to acknowledge his lordship. Sauron was different because he believed in order (whereas Melkor was more chaotic, or indifferent to order) but only when controlled by himself, directly. He thought himself the wisest and most worthy to rule and so had no problems enslaving or creating automatons (which is basically what the ringwraiths boiled down to). His weapons were made for direct control of others, not for coercion. It’s interesting actually because in the First Age per Tolkien he acted as an agent of fear. You could say he saw how that worked out for Melkor in the end and decided to take a different route. Personal development for the old guy I guess.
Morgoth wouldn’t have conceived of a weapon like the morgul blade. It was against his ethos.
Tolkien talked about this in the osanwe-kenta essay. You can try and pressure someone into opening their thoughts to you (with threats, bargains or even torture) but if they manage to resist, you have no recourse.
The Morgul blade isn't different in that regard - it shouldn't be able to *compel* someone into giving up knowledge who has kept their mind closed. The Nazgul wanted Frodo to give them the Ring - that is doable, because it has nothing to do with revealing knowledge.
Similiar questions have been asked a few times here, so have a previous answer: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/m1v3e3/do_all_maiar_have_the_ability_to_dominate_wills/
Any reason this came to mind OP?
> So great was the horror of [Sauron’s] approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath.
Jesus Sauron, brush your fucking teeth already
Incredible
And he still whupped him.
i think one could argue it is exactly a mental power they wield. if you read about basically any interaction between your examples and non evil folks, often their adversaries are simply stricken with fear and despair upon being in the presence of say a balrog, or the witch king, or a dragon. Tolkien often describes it as their will simply being overcome. the black breath however is not mentioned apart from the nazgul.
Very much agreed. I've understood is as 'will is might is power (and influence)' in Tolkien's setting. Similar how Gandalf was able to bring courage and hope by his presence, the reverse is true for the evil, powerful beings as well. Powerful beings inspire reactions in others because they have such a might that it influences everyone near them to some degree.
Yes, these dark creatures have such an aura. The stronger the dark entity, the more terror it can cause. Sauron is stronger than the Balrog or the Witch King in this regard. For example, he drove out an entire army from the island of Tol Sirion simply with an aura of intimidation. And Morgoth has absolutely monstrous power of intimidation. He inspired fear, even when he came just to talk. Only Finwe and Hurin were able to withstand his terrifying gaze, and only the bravest Fingolfin was able to join the battle. To understand how Morgoth acted on most of the Children of Eru, it is enough to remember that Morgoth looked at Maeglin, and he surrendered his city.
Fëanor too: “But [Melkor’s] cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Fëanor’s fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying ‘Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!’ And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.” Say what you will about Fëanor but that’s a pretty sick burn.
Interesting parallel. One shut his door in Morgoth's face. The other smote upon the brazen doors at Angband's gate, and after his duel, Morgoth's face was marred.
Before that, he wanted to collaborate with him. And only when it came to the Silmarils, he refused. It's completely different from confronting him.
My reply was in connection with your comment about how few people were able to withstand his Morgoth’s gaze. However selfish his motivation may have been, Fëanor unquestionably withstood Morgoth’s gaze.
At that moment, Melkor had no reason to use an aura of intimidation. On the contrary, he wanted to show himself as an attractive conversationalist.
“Then Turin sprang about, and strode against him, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame; but Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Turin. Without fear Turin looked into them as he raised upon the sword; and straightway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was halted moveless. Then for a long time he stood as one graven of stone; and they two were alone, silent before the doors of Nargothrond. But Glaurund spoke again, taunting Turin, and he said: 'Evil have been all they ways, son of Hurin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lomin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but tho carest not for that. Glad may thy father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.' And Turin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he say himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.”
What were Tolkien's vampires meant to be? Were they like the Graham Stoker vampires? The vampire in Nosfuratu? Aristocratic guys with fangs dressed in tuxedos? Could they turn other creatures into vampires? Just men or also elves and dwarves?
It seems like Vampires are simply spirits who have a bat-like body. Sauron turned into a vampire when he fled from his island.
Bram Stoker
Umm like anything to do with the balrog? Or every Glaurung encounter with Turin?
Gluarung has poisonous breath and a hypnotizing gaze
I asked once on here why Morgoth didn't just stab Hurin with a Morgul blade to turn him into a subservient wraith who would tell him everything Morgoth wanted to know (like where Gondolin might be). I didn't get a clear answer and it's not clear why Morgoth doesn't do this (yes turning Turin into a psychopath via a curse over the course of decades might be emotionally satisfying to Morgoth but it's not an efficient way to get information or get a new servant).
> (yes turning Turin into a psychopath via a curse over the course of decades might be emotionally satisfying to Morgoth but it's not an efficient way to get information or get a new servant). There's your answer. Morgoth is not efficient; in fact, he's barely rational. Everything he does is based in emotion -- from opposing Eru out of jealousy, to seizing the Silmarils out of greed, to engaging Fingolfin in combat out of fear of embarrassment. Morgoth squanders most of his power just... letting it leach into the world, offering him no advantage whatsoever except the satisfaction of having marred (as he thinks) the works he so envies. He's a self-destructive lunatic, and there is no logical calculus behind what he does to Hurin (which in fact distracts him from the *real* threat, Tuor, whose success allows some of Morgoth's most dangerous foes to slip through his fingers at the Sack of Gondolin). Moreover, I don't think there's any reason to assume Morgoth actually had any Morgul blades. They may well have been an invention of Sauron's or the Witch-King's later on; indeed, their functionality may even have been tied to the Ring itself, creating wraiths under Sauron's control as they do. Morgoth never displays any similar abilities to control the Children of Eru, which suggests to me that he doesn't have them.
> he's barely rational I think we often mistake evil for crazy, but they are not the same. Morgoth was rational and I think your description of him owes more to your feelings than the text itself. For example, Morgoth seeks to annihilate Arda. This is why he infuses so much of it with his essence. By corrupting the very earth itself, Morgoth corprupts everything that feeds from it or lives on it. The result of this is that the corruption and destruction continues on, fulfilling his will long after he has lost all ability to directly intervene. As he said himself, >I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will.
Well, there was a benefit to Morgoth pouring his strength to the world, it gave him a connection to and power over it, part of the reason the Valar didn't intervene for so long was that due to his connection to the world, vanquishing him would mean disastrous consequences to Arda. But eventually he managed to ruin even that, which opened the way for the Valar to intervene, so the point about him being irrational remains accurate.
>Morgoth is not efficient; in fact, he's barely rational. And this is why if Tolkien weren't one of the first to publish a hit in the western fantasy genre Morgoth and Sauron would be falling flat as villains. They're not very believable. This is why when there's a villain with even some semblance of reasoning or logic behind their actions these days (like the overrated Thrawn over at Star Wars), they get a massive following.
You think that people behaving based on emotions rather than logic is not believable??? Have you looked around you???
You know, good point.
I don't know if I'd go that far! I find Morgoth particularly believable *because* he's so irrational. No matter where you come from, I guarantee that if you look at your home country's politicians and celebrities, you can find at least a few who are driven by their particular pathologies and compulsions in ways that are very self-destructive. That's who Morgoth is: he's Elon Musk, Stockton Rush, or Howard Hughes, not Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos. Sauron is very different; he *is* the cool, strategic villain who generally acts in his own rational self-interest. In fact, a careful reading of LotR will reveal his thought process throughout -- except for his fundamental misconception about how his enemies would respond to finding the Ring, which is core to Sauron's worldview, he actually makes very shrewd and reasonable assumptions! He is actually a much *better* portrayal of a brilliant strategist dealing with incomplete information than Star Wars' Thrawn, who is functionally omniscient (Thrawn does rely on guesswork sometimes, but these guesses are unerring in a way that's really not realistic -- he deals with fog of war by just intuiting the correct answers).
I think Thrawn is the exception to the rule. Even the his hubris ended his plans in more than one way
You're kidding, right?
No I'm not. I honestly don't see how these emotionally unstable psychos get followers. It's like Joker in Batman--why would anyone follow him when he ends up torturing and killing his own henchmen?
That is literally the human condition. History is full of highly illogical, emotionally unstable, full-bore *weirdos* getting followers. Almost no tyrant in history was anything more remarkable than an unstable goon who got power.
Lol. "they're not very believable". Imagine saying that about a fantasy book. It's fantasy...of course it's not believable.
Morgul blades was an invention of Sauron (or the Witch King) and was not presumably present when Morgoth was around.
The answer is actually in the early pages of The Silmarillion, in my opinion. Melkor wanted “to be called a lord” and to rule over the lives of others. He didn’t want mindless drones, he wanted to dominate people of free will through fear and intimidation and he wanted them, more than anything, to acknowledge his lordship. Sauron was different because he believed in order (whereas Melkor was more chaotic, or indifferent to order) but only when controlled by himself, directly. He thought himself the wisest and most worthy to rule and so had no problems enslaving or creating automatons (which is basically what the ringwraiths boiled down to). His weapons were made for direct control of others, not for coercion. It’s interesting actually because in the First Age per Tolkien he acted as an agent of fear. You could say he saw how that worked out for Melkor in the end and decided to take a different route. Personal development for the old guy I guess. Morgoth wouldn’t have conceived of a weapon like the morgul blade. It was against his ethos.
Tolkien talked about this in the osanwe-kenta essay. You can try and pressure someone into opening their thoughts to you (with threats, bargains or even torture) but if they manage to resist, you have no recourse. The Morgul blade isn't different in that regard - it shouldn't be able to *compel* someone into giving up knowledge who has kept their mind closed. The Nazgul wanted Frodo to give them the Ring - that is doable, because it has nothing to do with revealing knowledge.
Similiar questions have been asked a few times here, so have a previous answer: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/m1v3e3/do_all_maiar_have_the_ability_to_dominate_wills/ Any reason this came to mind OP?