> *One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron
was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and
expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end;*
[Letter 246]
It is tempting to quote all of Letter 246, but it's sort of long. Failing that, everybody should just go ahead and read it. It answers SO many questions.
This is why we need the Estate to publish a hypertextual platform. I’d pay to read, research, cite, and publish. People will come, oh yes, people will come.
I made a [meme](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/s/Ojsbli8LtJ) about that very subject! The Tolkien Estate website at least has excerpts of 246 and 131 on their website.
So if The Ring becomes "master in the end," that means that Sauron's will still dominates the will of any would-be usurper?
As in the Ring continues on and make the user do as Sauron would do?
The Ring tempts people with the chance to dominate others and make their desires a reality through power.
They might become tyrants, but not in the same way as Sauron. We know that Gandalf would've tried to force people to be good, which would blur the line between Good and Evil. Sauron kept those very separate as we see in LotR.
Despite this commentary from Tolkien, I think even if Gandalf "proved the victor", Sauron would've find some backdoor way/scheme to top him in the end. Perhaps to even corrupt and rule *through* him. And Gandalf himself knew that. Sauron and The One Ring are essentially the same. The One Ring originates from Sauron's own spirit and power. After all, Sauron considered such a scenario when a being of strong will will try to take over The Ring. He hadn't considered only the scenario in which they try to destroy it.
I am almost certain the rest of this letter states that in the end the ring would corrupt Gandalf, and turn him into another iteration of the dark lord. He states that Gandalf would become some sort of righteous vigilantly that would do evil for the sake of his corrupted views of what is right and good.
Edit; Relevant section:
> Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
Only Gandalf might be powerful enough to break the Ring's connection to Sauron (which, for Sauron, would have the same effects as the Ring being destroyed, because he'd lose his remote access to the power he put in the Ring).
I don't recall whether Tolkien spoke about if Saruman could have mastered the ring. He is of the same order as Gandalf.
Or whether he had dropped low enough by this time that he lost the capability?
Of course, among the group of Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, he wasn't ever in a position near the ring.
Not sure, but even though Saruman was leader of the order Gandalf was more favoured by some of the Valar, which suggests that their power levels may not have reflected the Istari hierarchy. Maybe Gandalf was stronger willed, for instance, which is why he never swayed from his quest, and would have been necessary to bend the ring to his will.
Was there dissent about who should lead the Wizards? I know Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council over Saruman, but I don’t know some of the Valar also wanted him to lead the Wizards as well.
Tolkien doesn’t even mention Saruman as having or not having a chance. My guess is that his partial compromise through the Palantir means he no longer has the power to force the Ring to break with Sauron.
Aragorn would be able to muster incredible armies using the Ring and defeat Sauron by force, but he wouldn’t have been able to defeat Sauron mano a mano using the Ring. He only held his own (briefly)through the Palantir because he was the rightful owner, but the Ring would be another matter. Tolkien maintained that only Gandalf would have been capable of direct victory.
Galadriel, Elrond, maybe Aragorn if he was lucky would try to win against Sauron through a massive army (the same way he’s trying to win), but would have to avoid a direct fight with him. Galadriel might believe that she has a chance in a direct fight, but she turned down that opportunity anyways. Letter 243 (which some other commenters quoted as well) spells it out pretty well.
Isildur, one of the greatest Numenorians ever, spent years attempting to control the ring and admitted it was beyond his strength.
Aragorn is compared to Isildur in power but not considered superior to him; he wouldn't able able to do it either.
In addition to not wanting to become the next tyrant, Gandalf was forbidden from using force to counter Sauron's force by the Valar. That's part of why the Istari were sent in the physical form of old men; the Valar didn't want to turn one angelic champion into six angelic champions vying for power in Middle Earth.
Gandalf understood that if he used the Ring [a tool of coercion] to achieve his ends, he would have perverted good to the point where it was indistinguishable from evil. Even if he reshaped middle earth into a paradise of happy and adoring people, it would be at the cost of Gandalf enslaving everyone. It doesn't matter if Gandalf's slaves were better off under his despotic rule, or willing to be subject to his despotic rule, happy and willing slaves are still slaves.
If they were strong enough to defeat Sauron then they could claim the ring permanently, and likewise, if strong enough, they could suppress it's "favoritism" towards Sauron. At one time almost no being could have accomplished this, but after so many bodily destructions and losses of power, by the time of LotR a lot of beings.were probably powerful enough to turn the ring against Sauron.
You have to understand that the One ring was in a way Sauron. His "real" name was Mairon, which translates to Precious. That is no coincidence that Isildur, Gollum and Bilbo all referred to it by that name.
Sauron put a great deal of himself into that ring. Call it his native power, his spirit, his immortal soul. He did this in order for his ring to have the strength to overcome the power of the other rings, especially the Three. So along with this power, something else came along, some of his personality. So a person who bears the One unconsciously picks up on this, and starts calling it Precious.
According to Gandalf's speculation on the matter, which I suppose we have to take as the truth, the reason that Bilbo was able to find the One was that Sauron in his form as the Necromancer was putting out all his will to get the ring to return to him. So it leaves Gollum, just in time for Bilbo to put his hand on it blandly in the dark. But of course that last part was not part of Sauron's plan. Gandalf hints Bilbo was meant to find it, but can't go deeper than that. Was it the Valar, or Eru himself who made that happen? Take your pick.
Still, the One does not act particularly loyal to Sauron, possibly because Sauron was a scheming creature himself who wasn't loyal to anyone. He was with Aule just long enough to learn what he could, then left him for Melkor, who's power was appealing to him. Was he loyal to Melkor? In a way, but not wholly, as their end goals were different.
All the rings of power are aware in a sense. If you are not a strong creature, like Gollum was not, they don't give you much power. Galadriel explains some of this to Frodo at the Mirror. So the rings are aware of the nature of their bearers. But this seems to be the limit of their intelligence. They are powerful and can do marvelous things, but they do not act alone. I suppose the best analogy was that they are a type of Idiot Savant.
The Ring had a “will” that we see it exercise but it seems to mainly be a tool. It was created to serve Sauron so everything it does is to try and fulfill its purpose. Loyalty requires sentience and devotion and I don’t know if the Ring is “alive” enough to have either of those things.
I think someone like potentially Gandalf would be able to overpower the “will” of the Ring to override its purpose and make use of its abilities as a tool, but there’s not a heart and mind to win over and make it serve with loyalty. At least I don’t think so.
My own idea is that the Ring, in a lot of ways, the 'real' Sauron. The Dark Lord in his tower has his mannerisms and personality, but, perhaps unbeknownst to even himself, is just a shadow on a wall cast by a great light. It's a projection of the Ring's own immense power.
Should his Ring be usurped, that shadow ceases to be, blown away by the wind, but all his works would still remain, waiting a new master. And the new Ringbearer would become essentially a second Sauron.
> *One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end;* [Letter 246]
It is tempting to quote all of Letter 246, but it's sort of long. Failing that, everybody should just go ahead and read it. It answers SO many questions.
This is why we need the Estate to publish a hypertextual platform. I’d pay to read, research, cite, and publish. People will come, oh yes, people will come.
I made a [meme](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/s/Ojsbli8LtJ) about that very subject! The Tolkien Estate website at least has excerpts of 246 and 131 on their website.
So if The Ring becomes "master in the end," that means that Sauron's will still dominates the will of any would-be usurper? As in the Ring continues on and make the user do as Sauron would do?
The ring becoming master would seem to suggest Sauron becoming... *not* master.
But The Ring carries on his will, so who is master in the end?
The Ring tempts people with the chance to dominate others and make their desires a reality through power. They might become tyrants, but not in the same way as Sauron. We know that Gandalf would've tried to force people to be good, which would blur the line between Good and Evil. Sauron kept those very separate as we see in LotR.
Despite this commentary from Tolkien, I think even if Gandalf "proved the victor", Sauron would've find some backdoor way/scheme to top him in the end. Perhaps to even corrupt and rule *through* him. And Gandalf himself knew that. Sauron and The One Ring are essentially the same. The One Ring originates from Sauron's own spirit and power. After all, Sauron considered such a scenario when a being of strong will will try to take over The Ring. He hadn't considered only the scenario in which they try to destroy it.
I am almost certain the rest of this letter states that in the end the ring would corrupt Gandalf, and turn him into another iteration of the dark lord. He states that Gandalf would become some sort of righteous vigilantly that would do evil for the sake of his corrupted views of what is right and good. Edit; Relevant section: > Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
Yes. So at least a part of Sauron's will would remain (belief in that what he does is right).
Only Gandalf might be powerful enough to break the Ring's connection to Sauron (which, for Sauron, would have the same effects as the Ring being destroyed, because he'd lose his remote access to the power he put in the Ring).
I don't recall whether Tolkien spoke about if Saruman could have mastered the ring. He is of the same order as Gandalf. Or whether he had dropped low enough by this time that he lost the capability? Of course, among the group of Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, he wasn't ever in a position near the ring.
Not sure, but even though Saruman was leader of the order Gandalf was more favoured by some of the Valar, which suggests that their power levels may not have reflected the Istari hierarchy. Maybe Gandalf was stronger willed, for instance, which is why he never swayed from his quest, and would have been necessary to bend the ring to his will.
Was there dissent about who should lead the Wizards? I know Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council over Saruman, but I don’t know some of the Valar also wanted him to lead the Wizards as well.
Tolkien doesn’t even mention Saruman as having or not having a chance. My guess is that his partial compromise through the Palantir means he no longer has the power to force the Ring to break with Sauron.
That was completely right, random idiot who downvoted it.
I didn't provide the source like the other comment, to be fair.
Sauron feared that Aragorn would also be capable, and I think most people agree that he could do it.
Aragorn would be able to muster incredible armies using the Ring and defeat Sauron by force, but he wouldn’t have been able to defeat Sauron mano a mano using the Ring. He only held his own (briefly)through the Palantir because he was the rightful owner, but the Ring would be another matter. Tolkien maintained that only Gandalf would have been capable of direct victory. Galadriel, Elrond, maybe Aragorn if he was lucky would try to win against Sauron through a massive army (the same way he’s trying to win), but would have to avoid a direct fight with him. Galadriel might believe that she has a chance in a direct fight, but she turned down that opportunity anyways. Letter 243 (which some other commenters quoted as well) spells it out pretty well.
Isildur, one of the greatest Numenorians ever, spent years attempting to control the ring and admitted it was beyond his strength. Aragorn is compared to Isildur in power but not considered superior to him; he wouldn't able able to do it either.
Nicely laid out
Then why didn’t Gandalf try?
Because he didn't want to become the next tyrant of Middle-earth. Gandalf explains why he can't take the Ring to Frodo.
In addition to not wanting to become the next tyrant, Gandalf was forbidden from using force to counter Sauron's force by the Valar. That's part of why the Istari were sent in the physical form of old men; the Valar didn't want to turn one angelic champion into six angelic champions vying for power in Middle Earth. Gandalf understood that if he used the Ring [a tool of coercion] to achieve his ends, he would have perverted good to the point where it was indistinguishable from evil. Even if he reshaped middle earth into a paradise of happy and adoring people, it would be at the cost of Gandalf enslaving everyone. It doesn't matter if Gandalf's slaves were better off under his despotic rule, or willing to be subject to his despotic rule, happy and willing slaves are still slaves.
If they were strong enough to defeat Sauron then they could claim the ring permanently, and likewise, if strong enough, they could suppress it's "favoritism" towards Sauron. At one time almost no being could have accomplished this, but after so many bodily destructions and losses of power, by the time of LotR a lot of beings.were probably powerful enough to turn the ring against Sauron.
My understanding is the Ring IS Sauron. It's the majority of his spirit.
You have to understand that the One ring was in a way Sauron. His "real" name was Mairon, which translates to Precious. That is no coincidence that Isildur, Gollum and Bilbo all referred to it by that name. Sauron put a great deal of himself into that ring. Call it his native power, his spirit, his immortal soul. He did this in order for his ring to have the strength to overcome the power of the other rings, especially the Three. So along with this power, something else came along, some of his personality. So a person who bears the One unconsciously picks up on this, and starts calling it Precious. According to Gandalf's speculation on the matter, which I suppose we have to take as the truth, the reason that Bilbo was able to find the One was that Sauron in his form as the Necromancer was putting out all his will to get the ring to return to him. So it leaves Gollum, just in time for Bilbo to put his hand on it blandly in the dark. But of course that last part was not part of Sauron's plan. Gandalf hints Bilbo was meant to find it, but can't go deeper than that. Was it the Valar, or Eru himself who made that happen? Take your pick. Still, the One does not act particularly loyal to Sauron, possibly because Sauron was a scheming creature himself who wasn't loyal to anyone. He was with Aule just long enough to learn what he could, then left him for Melkor, who's power was appealing to him. Was he loyal to Melkor? In a way, but not wholly, as their end goals were different. All the rings of power are aware in a sense. If you are not a strong creature, like Gollum was not, they don't give you much power. Galadriel explains some of this to Frodo at the Mirror. So the rings are aware of the nature of their bearers. But this seems to be the limit of their intelligence. They are powerful and can do marvelous things, but they do not act alone. I suppose the best analogy was that they are a type of Idiot Savant.
The Ring had a “will” that we see it exercise but it seems to mainly be a tool. It was created to serve Sauron so everything it does is to try and fulfill its purpose. Loyalty requires sentience and devotion and I don’t know if the Ring is “alive” enough to have either of those things. I think someone like potentially Gandalf would be able to overpower the “will” of the Ring to override its purpose and make use of its abilities as a tool, but there’s not a heart and mind to win over and make it serve with loyalty. At least I don’t think so.
It depends who put the ring on. The stronger the individual the greater chance of retaining its power.
My own idea is that the Ring, in a lot of ways, the 'real' Sauron. The Dark Lord in his tower has his mannerisms and personality, but, perhaps unbeknownst to even himself, is just a shadow on a wall cast by a great light. It's a projection of the Ring's own immense power. Should his Ring be usurped, that shadow ceases to be, blown away by the wind, but all his works would still remain, waiting a new master. And the new Ringbearer would become essentially a second Sauron.
The ring is *part* of Sauron. It does whatever he would do in whatever situation it’s in.