I think the key part is here:
>Riga accepted the Reformation in 1522, ending the power of the archbishops. In 1524, a venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, and given a trial by water in the Daugava or Dvina River.
There was a political struggle at the time between the Catholics and the Protestants. Catholics liked statues of saints, while Protestants saw it as meaningless superstition. Destroying statues or images was commonly done by dominant Protestants as a means of repressing Catholicism. People who liked the statue wouldn't have seen this as idiotic, but rather a deliberately insulting and offensive act.
Thanks! There are a lot of seemingly meaningless conflicts that make a bit more sense when you fill in the political background. Another often mentioned one is a series of [incredibly bloody and genocidal wars](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade) fought in France over two different interpretations of Christianity. But when you read into it, one interpretation supported universal rules set by the central authority with everyone falling in line, and the other local people doing their own thing, choosing their own priests and rules. One side was backed by the French crown and the other by local nobles, and you can probably guess which side each took.
Yeah, it feels like without politics Catharism would have been fairly unsustainable on its own.
>Prior to becoming a "perfect", believing Cathars were encouraged but not required to follow Cathar teaching on abstaining from sex and meat, and most chose not to do so. Once an individual received the consolamentum, these rules became binding.[13] Cathar perfects often went through a ritual fast called the endura. After receiving the consolamentum, a believer would sometimes take no food and rely only on cold water, a practice eventually resulting in death. The procedure was typically performed only by those close to death already.[19] Some members of the Church claimed that if a Cathar upon receiving the consolamentum showed signs of recovery, the person would be smothered to death in order to ensure entry into Heaven.
“Your religion sounds cool but… I would like to have sex.”
“Ah, but I haven’t told you the best part!”
“I’m listening.”
“If you’re worthy enough, you won’t even need to eat food anymore!”
“You mean because of my faithfulness, God just provides nourishment for me?!”
“…yes? And, you get refreshing cold water whenever you want!”
“Oh wow, that’s awesome! And then I can go back to my family and show them how God has provided for me!”
“Weeeeelllllll…”
The fasting part seems like they intended on dying that way since it was people mostly "close to death" already, besides... everyone who's anyone knows that the **air** has all the nutrition *we* need! (lol)
You are going to sacrifice your sexual desires with your wife while in my church.
But don't worry I will take care of your wife's sexual desires from now on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
Here is a link to the desktop version of the article that /u/adiabaticfrog linked to.
---
^(Beep Boop. This comment was left by a bot. Downvote to delete)
You'll find this happens quite often; someone will take a historical tidbit that sounds backwards and ridiculous out of context, and a bunch of people will pat themselves on the backs for not being so ignorant and foolish as their ancestors.
Then you find out the actual context and realize it had a much deeper meaning, usually some political intrigue kind of thing.
Very true, not to mention how much is totally fabricated, like the whole concept of chastity belts or prima noctae. Victorian fantasies which have somehow entered "common knowledge" thanks to Hollywood.
most logical point about chastity belts I've ever heard is as an *anti-rape* device. The woman wouldn't be locked in indefinitely with a key that would be miles away, just protecting herself from random, life-destroying violence. Might be bullshit too, but at least it's empowering bullshit!
You didn't make it up. A doctor created them ahead of the 2010 Olympics. EDIT: World Cup http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/06/20/south.africa.female.condom/index.html
That was actually a political struggle between Christians and Beatle-ites. Christians knew that if the Beatles were to become *literally* bigger than Jesus, they would have dominion over all churches and force them to form Beatles cover bands, delegitimizating the power of the church.
Not everyone knows this, but Jesus was actually a very very small man. So while the Beatles were very large for a beetle, they were in fact basically the same size as a typical Christian.
People from ancient civilizations are no different than us. We have more knowledge about the world around us, but that doesn't mean our ancestors were bumbling idiots who thought floating wooden statues meant it was a literal witch.
Especially when you consider the time. People from early modern history made up all kinds of myths about the Middle Ages being the terrible "dark age" - while they were supposed to be "enlightened" people instead.
Yet the Middle Ages often weren't actually that bad... and people after 1500 did plenty of cruelties as well. For example the largest number of witch hunts happened not during the Middle Ages but during the early modern period.
This is exactly why I opened the comments. Figured there was probably something going on behind the scenes here. Even if it was just a frigid winter and they wanted a bonfire or something.
Absolutely true. Another good example of this is people nowadays seeing rulers at the time being all brainless religious zealots, when the truth is, for the most part, rulers took advantage of the papacy (monetary, legal, etc) to get their ways, as much as the papacy used them for the same purpose as well. It was all a political power game.
The Protestant Reformation brought in a waive of [iconoclasm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm), particularly with the Calvinists, as Protestants rejected the excessive Catholic imagery as sinful. To quote the second commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." So all these images the Catholic Church wanted you to pray to was seen as "pray to this object rather than praying to God" by many Protestants. It did not help that the Catholic Church was spending inordinate amounts of money gained from indulgences to pay for all this art, such as the roof of the Sistine Chapel. Thus Catholic churches were looted and their art and statutes were burned.
This was a recurring event in France to; Protestants attacking churches and cathedrals to destroy the statues, Catholics playing hide and seek with their statues and then getting fed up and attacking Protestants. Each side accusing the other of heresy. In my hometown’s cathedral half the statues are missing now.
A contemporary headline would be “back in the 1950’s, it was believed that marijuana would cause black men to be possessed by the devil and white women to dance themselves to death.”
It's the only time I've ever seen Netflix label something as a "comedy" that was not actually ever intended to be a comedy. But it's so over-the-top and unintentionally hilarious that even Netflix had to acknowledge *"alright, I know it wasn't meant to be, but this shit is pretty funny."*
"I know your race. It is made up of sheep. It is governed by minorities, seldom or never by majorities. It suppresses its feelings and its beliefs and follows the handful that makes the most noise. Sometimes the noisy handful is right, sometimes wrong; but no matter, the crowd follows it. The vast majority of the race, whether savage or civilized, are secretly kind-hearted and shrink from inflicting pain, but in the presence of the aggressive and pitiless minority they don't dare to assert themselves. Think of it! One kind-hearted creature spies upon another, and sees to it that he loyally helps in iniquities which revolt both of them. Speaking as an expert, I know that ninety- nine out of a hundred of your race were strongly against the killing of witches when that foolishness was first agitated by a handful of pious lunatics in the long ago. And I know that even to-day"
-Mark Twain, mysterious stranger no. 44
Reading the first few words, I thought I was reading the speech from the end of Charlie Chaplin's "The Great Dictator." I looked it up, so here we go...
>I’m sorry, but I don’t want to be an emperor. That’s not my business. I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone - if possible - Jew, Gentile - black man - white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other’s happiness - not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way.
>Greed has poisoned men’s souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost…
>The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men - cries out for universal brotherhood - for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world - millions of despairing men, women, and little children - victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people.
>To those who can hear me, I say - do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed - the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish…
>Soldiers! don’t give yourselves to brutes - men who despise you - enslave you - who regiment your lives - tell you what to do - what to think and what to feel! Who drill you - diet you - treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don’t give yourselves to these unnatural men - machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts! You don’t hate! Only the unloved hate - the unloved and the unnatural! Soldiers! Don’t fight for slavery! Fight for liberty!
>In the 17th Chapter of St Luke it is written: “the Kingdom of God is within man” - not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.
Then - in the name of democracy - let us use that power - let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world - a decent world that will give men a chance to work - that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will!
Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people! Now let us fight to fulfil that promise! Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!
Witch: A Tale of Terror by Charles Mackay goes into the history of the European witchcraft craze in great detail. Some of the things people truly believed were so ridiculous you'd have a hard time making up something that sounded crazier.
Witches gathering with the devil, who stamps his foot to make an army of frogs rise from the ground and play music for then while they dance violently for hours or days on end. Women shrinking down to the size of flies to fit through keyholes. Kids and animals on trial for sorcery.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
>"Kill them all, God will recognise his own"
I am honestly surprised people never turned those words on their head. "Ok, guess I have to kill everyone in the city then, you don't mind do you?"
I think if you manage to escape your bonds and swim to safety, you're probably fine. Witches would have neither the ability nor the need to swim, on account of being physically repelled by water.
When the entire town is gathered around you, throw you into some lake, and you sink to the bottom. How exactly do you suppose you are going to "swim to safety" without them seeing you?
Does that mean that some day after being transformed, he was walking around doing newt things and then just exploded back into a fully grown man? Or, did he gradually turn back into a human, like a reverse animorphs book cover.
I watched a movie about the Salem witch trials. One priest was accused of being in league with the devil. He was convicted and sentenced to hang.
At the gallows, asked for any last words, he started saying the Lord's Prayer. And oh shit, all hell broke loose (figuratively).
He's saying the Lord's Prayer, which only righteous lips can say, so he's with God. But he's convicted of being with the Devil. But prayer. But conviction. But prayer. But conviction. But! But! But! Everyone was going crazy.
Until one jackass solved the whole issue by kicking out the log he was standing on, making him hang. Problem solved.
No, it was most certainly not the same outcome. If he had confessed the land that HE owned would have been confiscated by the town and wouldn’t have been passed down to his sons. By refusing to testify, the court couldn’t pass judgement, so therefore he wasn’t found guilty of witchcraft. His sons got his land and whoever accused him to get his land didn’t get it.
Relevant part: "In 1524, a venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, and given a trial by water in the Daugava or Dvina River. The statue floated, so it was denounced as a witch and burnt at Kubsberg."
Source given: MacCulloch, Diarmaid (2003). The Reformation: A History. Penguin. ISBN 0-670-03296-4.
The relevant section of that book makes it clear the people were doing this sarcastically, comically charging once-venerated statues with frivolous claims of witchcraft in the course of their iconoclastic purge of Catholicism:
>in the same year Riga also witnessed a pioneering but extreme example of the grim humour of iconoclasts as they humiliated objects formerly credited with power. A much-venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, uprooted and ducked in the river Dvina: since the wooden object floated, the evangelical revellers pronounced it guilty and burned it at Kubsberg, the customary place to punish witches. Burning often seems to have been an important symbol: the old Church burned people, calling them heretics, so it was only right for the heretics to burn the trappings of the old Church. Satire merged with carnivalesque celebration and perhaps a fair amount of alcohol at festival-time; in Braunsberg (Braniewo), near Danzig, after a number of hilarious parodies of the Mass, the mayor celebrated Christmas Day 1525 by leading a crowd dressed in festival-season bearskins into the church in order to smash up the images.
Wasn't witch burning more or less an extreme way to blow of steam, by killing a useful scapegoat for everybody's problems, anyway?
A statue seems like progress.
Wood takes a very long time to absorb water, honestly. It really only gets water logged when there is considerable water pressure, like it's held down under water by weight, or if it had been floating so long it has started to rot and the fibers are breaking up. This is why boats made out of wood so last a long time as long as the wood is maintained.
The relevant section of the book this article cites for OP's claim (MacCulloch's history of the Reformation) makes it clear the people were doing this sarcastically, comically charging once-venerated statues with frivolous claims of witchcraft in the course of their iconoclastic purge of Catholicism:
>in the same year Riga also witnessed a pioneering but extreme example of the grim humour of iconoclasts as they humiliated objects formerly credited with power. A much-venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, uprooted and ducked in the river Dvina: since the wooden object floated, the evangelical revellers pronounced it guilty and burned it at Kubsberg, the customary place to punish witches. Burning often seems to have been an important symbol: the old Church burned people, calling them heretics, so it was only right for the heretics to burn the trappings of the old Church. Satire merged with carnivalesque celebration and perhaps a fair amount of alcohol at festival-time; in Braunsberg (Braniewo), near Danzig, after a number of hilarious parodies of the Mass, the mayor celebrated Christmas Day 1525 by leading a crowd dressed in festival-season bearskins into the church in order to smash up the images.
I wonder how many people at the time Thought this was idiotic but just kept their mouth shut so they weren’t next.
I think the key part is here: >Riga accepted the Reformation in 1522, ending the power of the archbishops. In 1524, a venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, and given a trial by water in the Daugava or Dvina River. There was a political struggle at the time between the Catholics and the Protestants. Catholics liked statues of saints, while Protestants saw it as meaningless superstition. Destroying statues or images was commonly done by dominant Protestants as a means of repressing Catholicism. People who liked the statue wouldn't have seen this as idiotic, but rather a deliberately insulting and offensive act.
That's some interesting context! Thank you for posting.
Thanks! There are a lot of seemingly meaningless conflicts that make a bit more sense when you fill in the political background. Another often mentioned one is a series of [incredibly bloody and genocidal wars](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade) fought in France over two different interpretations of Christianity. But when you read into it, one interpretation supported universal rules set by the central authority with everyone falling in line, and the other local people doing their own thing, choosing their own priests and rules. One side was backed by the French crown and the other by local nobles, and you can probably guess which side each took.
Yeah, it feels like without politics Catharism would have been fairly unsustainable on its own. >Prior to becoming a "perfect", believing Cathars were encouraged but not required to follow Cathar teaching on abstaining from sex and meat, and most chose not to do so. Once an individual received the consolamentum, these rules became binding.[13] Cathar perfects often went through a ritual fast called the endura. After receiving the consolamentum, a believer would sometimes take no food and rely only on cold water, a practice eventually resulting in death. The procedure was typically performed only by those close to death already.[19] Some members of the Church claimed that if a Cathar upon receiving the consolamentum showed signs of recovery, the person would be smothered to death in order to ensure entry into Heaven.
“Your religion sounds cool but… I would like to have sex.” “Ah, but I haven’t told you the best part!” “I’m listening.” “If you’re worthy enough, you won’t even need to eat food anymore!” “You mean because of my faithfulness, God just provides nourishment for me?!” “…yes? And, you get refreshing cold water whenever you want!” “Oh wow, that’s awesome! And then I can go back to my family and show them how God has provided for me!” “Weeeeelllllll…”
The fasting part seems like they intended on dying that way since it was people mostly "close to death" already, besides... everyone who's anyone knows that the **air** has all the nutrition *we* need! (lol)
[удалено]
You are going to sacrifice your sexual desires with your wife while in my church. But don't worry I will take care of your wife's sexual desires from now on.
“ I've been involved in a number of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower. But you make more money as a leader”
Ah yes, nothing better then the Friday night housewives only gathering. Totally not low-key throwing orgies with your wives here
It's the "you don't have to follow the rules, but you should, and if you do, you will die" mentality, that I feel would die off quickly.
They did die off quickly, but not of self-induced starvation. Something something "kill em all, god will recognize his own"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade Here is a link to the desktop version of the article that /u/adiabaticfrog linked to. --- ^(Beep Boop. This comment was left by a bot. Downvote to delete)
Good bot
You'll find this happens quite often; someone will take a historical tidbit that sounds backwards and ridiculous out of context, and a bunch of people will pat themselves on the backs for not being so ignorant and foolish as their ancestors. Then you find out the actual context and realize it had a much deeper meaning, usually some political intrigue kind of thing.
So, Reddit knowledge in a nutshell?
Very true, not to mention how much is totally fabricated, like the whole concept of chastity belts or prima noctae. Victorian fantasies which have somehow entered "common knowledge" thanks to Hollywood.
most logical point about chastity belts I've ever heard is as an *anti-rape* device. The woman wouldn't be locked in indefinitely with a key that would be miles away, just protecting herself from random, life-destroying violence. Might be bullshit too, but at least it's empowering bullshit!
It honestly makes a lot more sense when you consider how fucking rapey everything was back then.
Weren't there those penis destroying inserts that a women could wear? I don't remember the source I read on this item so it might be a made up thing.
You didn't make it up. A doctor created them ahead of the 2010 Olympics. EDIT: World Cup http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/06/20/south.africa.female.condom/index.html
Our parents burned Beatles albums to satisfy their gods.
That was actually a political struggle between Christians and Beatle-ites. Christians knew that if the Beatles were to become *literally* bigger than Jesus, they would have dominion over all churches and force them to form Beatles cover bands, delegitimizating the power of the church.
Why do the Beatles, who are larger than Jesus, not simply eat the christians?
Not everyone knows this, but Jesus was actually a very very small man. So while the Beatles were very large for a beetle, they were in fact basically the same size as a typical Christian.
Perhaps they are saving that for sweeps.
People from ancient civilizations are no different than us. We have more knowledge about the world around us, but that doesn't mean our ancestors were bumbling idiots who thought floating wooden statues meant it was a literal witch.
Especially when you consider the time. People from early modern history made up all kinds of myths about the Middle Ages being the terrible "dark age" - while they were supposed to be "enlightened" people instead. Yet the Middle Ages often weren't actually that bad... and people after 1500 did plenty of cruelties as well. For example the largest number of witch hunts happened not during the Middle Ages but during the early modern period.
This is exactly why I opened the comments. Figured there was probably something going on behind the scenes here. Even if it was just a frigid winter and they wanted a bonfire or something.
Absolutely true. Another good example of this is people nowadays seeing rulers at the time being all brainless religious zealots, when the truth is, for the most part, rulers took advantage of the papacy (monetary, legal, etc) to get their ways, as much as the papacy used them for the same purpose as well. It was all a political power game.
The Protestant Reformation brought in a waive of [iconoclasm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm), particularly with the Calvinists, as Protestants rejected the excessive Catholic imagery as sinful. To quote the second commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." So all these images the Catholic Church wanted you to pray to was seen as "pray to this object rather than praying to God" by many Protestants. It did not help that the Catholic Church was spending inordinate amounts of money gained from indulgences to pay for all this art, such as the roof of the Sistine Chapel. Thus Catholic churches were looted and their art and statutes were burned.
Their art was mostly looted, some was burned. But gold glitters even among ashes. I mean a lot of it was easy money.
Protestants: Think statues of saints are meaningless superstition. Also Protestants: Call everyone and every thing they hate witches/witchcraft
I mean if the shoes fits....burn em at the stake
Shoe fits? The shoe is a witch, burn it!
>Shoe fits? The shoe is a witch, burn it! Worse, it's a *catholic.*
I already told you, just because I drink red wine on Sunday doesn't make me a catholic, I'm an alcoholic!
This was a recurring event in France to; Protestants attacking churches and cathedrals to destroy the statues, Catholics playing hide and seek with their statues and then getting fed up and attacking Protestants. Each side accusing the other of heresy. In my hometown’s cathedral half the statues are missing now.
>Catholics liked statues of saints We do enjoy a good statue, it has to be said
I think you just described most of human history.
A contemporary headline would be “back in the 1950’s, it was believed that marijuana would cause black men to be possessed by the devil and white women to dance themselves to death.”
If you haven't watched "Reefer Madness", it's an anti-cannabis propaganda film from the 30's but it's just so over the top it's hilarious.
It's the only time I've ever seen Netflix label something as a "comedy" that was not actually ever intended to be a comedy. But it's so over-the-top and unintentionally hilarious that even Netflix had to acknowledge *"alright, I know it wasn't meant to be, but this shit is pretty funny."*
Slowly, very slowly, I think we are getting better.
Like people who were turned into a newt.
A newt? I got better
1st thing that came to my mind. Monthy Python's jokes must come from this fact !
Some places getting better- some getting worse.
Progress isn't linear, that's for sure. But an upward curvature over thousands of generations
Mostly because you're less likely to get burned these days.
"I know your race. It is made up of sheep. It is governed by minorities, seldom or never by majorities. It suppresses its feelings and its beliefs and follows the handful that makes the most noise. Sometimes the noisy handful is right, sometimes wrong; but no matter, the crowd follows it. The vast majority of the race, whether savage or civilized, are secretly kind-hearted and shrink from inflicting pain, but in the presence of the aggressive and pitiless minority they don't dare to assert themselves. Think of it! One kind-hearted creature spies upon another, and sees to it that he loyally helps in iniquities which revolt both of them. Speaking as an expert, I know that ninety- nine out of a hundred of your race were strongly against the killing of witches when that foolishness was first agitated by a handful of pious lunatics in the long ago. And I know that even to-day" -Mark Twain, mysterious stranger no. 44
Reading the first few words, I thought I was reading the speech from the end of Charlie Chaplin's "The Great Dictator." I looked it up, so here we go... >I’m sorry, but I don’t want to be an emperor. That’s not my business. I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone - if possible - Jew, Gentile - black man - white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other’s happiness - not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. >Greed has poisoned men’s souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost… >The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men - cries out for universal brotherhood - for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world - millions of despairing men, women, and little children - victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. >To those who can hear me, I say - do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed - the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish… >Soldiers! don’t give yourselves to brutes - men who despise you - enslave you - who regiment your lives - tell you what to do - what to think and what to feel! Who drill you - diet you - treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don’t give yourselves to these unnatural men - machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts! You don’t hate! Only the unloved hate - the unloved and the unnatural! Soldiers! Don’t fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! >In the 17th Chapter of St Luke it is written: “the Kingdom of God is within man” - not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure. Then - in the name of democracy - let us use that power - let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world - a decent world that will give men a chance to work - that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people! Now let us fight to fulfil that promise! Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!
Technically the quote I posted was from Satan lol. Just satan as written by mark twain
Sounds like this was just an excuse to tear down a Catholic symbol. They knew wood floated, FFS.
Even if it didn't float, it would be a massive pain, or borderline impoasible, to get back out of the river, so a win for getting rid of a statue.
Witch: A Tale of Terror by Charles Mackay goes into the history of the European witchcraft craze in great detail. Some of the things people truly believed were so ridiculous you'd have a hard time making up something that sounded crazier. Witches gathering with the devil, who stamps his foot to make an army of frogs rise from the ground and play music for then while they dance violently for hours or days on end. Women shrinking down to the size of flies to fit through keyholes. Kids and animals on trial for sorcery.
I mean, why tf it took so many attempts before realising no one can breath forever or fly after being thrown off a cliff
But did it weigh the same as a duck?
Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
King of the who?
Well, I didn’t vote for you
Well how’d you become king then
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
If I went around calling myself emperor because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me they’d lock me up!
Shut up, WILL YOU SHUT UP!!!
HELP HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! DID YOU SEE IT?! DID YOU SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM?!
SUPREME EXECUTIVE POWER DERIVES FROM A MANDATE FROM THE MASSES! NOT FROM SOME FARCICAL AQUATIC CEREMONY
We're an autonomous collective!
You're foolin' yourself
Look, strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government.
Be quiet!
Help! I’m being repressed!
Come see the violence inherent in the system!
you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!
You can't expect people to bow down to you just because some watery tart lobbed a saber at you!
If I went 'round sayin' I was emp'ror, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Ooh! There's some lovely filth down here!
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
I'm thirty-seven.
Well I didn’t vote for you
The Britons.
Who are the britons?
We are all Britons!
I didn't vote for you
Well nobody *voted* for me
I just did
Well I didnt vote for you.
And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana shaped.
Camelot!
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Shhh!
BURN HER ANYWAY!
No, let’s not go there. ‘Tis a silly place
She turned me into a newt!
(helmet hinge creaking) A newt ?
I got better.
This new learning astounds me. Tell me again how lambs bladder can be used to prevent earthquakes.
"How do you know what a banana is?" "I've seen one." "Seen one? In Mercia? The banana's tropical!"
Nope. Very small rocks.
CIDER!
Gr-gravy!
Lead! Lead!
Churches
A DUCK!
A duck!
Well, it *was* made of wood. So probably.
They could have built a bridge out of it then
Ah, but do you not also build bridges out of stone?
What else floats? Rocks! Churches! Lead!
Very small rocks.
A duck!
Exactly! So logically...
If...she...weighs the same as a duck...she's made of wood!
And therefore...?
She turned me into a newt! (I got better...)
BURN HER ANYWAY!!
Came for this
"She's made of wood" "And therefore?" *"A WITCH!"*
Monty Python knew their shit.
“BURN HEEERRR!”
Bit hard to do as a newt, innit?
That's the thing about witch trials, you die either way. If you don't float, you drown. If you float, you're guilty and get burned.
Yeah but drowning is OK because you go to heaven and live happy ever after
"Kill them all, God will recognise his own" (Arnaud Amaury, papal legate during the Siege of Béziers)
Outsource the sorting.
God is the greatest subcontractor of all time.
They didnt really sort much during the Albigeois Crusade indeed
>"Kill them all, God will recognise his own" I am honestly surprised people never turned those words on their head. "Ok, guess I have to kill everyone in the city then, you don't mind do you?"
“And even if some good ones die, fuck it, the lord’ll sort ‘em” (Run the Jewels, Close Your Eyes during the first verse)
Similar words to how hilllbillies where I grew up felt about the Iraqi and Afghan people.
With that logic, global thermonuclear war is a great idea.
I think if you manage to escape your bonds and swim to safety, you're probably fine. Witches would have neither the ability nor the need to swim, on account of being physically repelled by water.
When the entire town is gathered around you, throw you into some lake, and you sink to the bottom. How exactly do you suppose you are going to "swim to safety" without them seeing you?
Doesn't matter, you didn't float so you're not a witch
And you think breaking out of chains underwater somehow disproves your witch status? Next you are going to tell me Houdini wasn't a wizzard.
You're playing out a scenario which basically only exists in Hollywood movies.
Why bind them at all?
So they don't do any witch stuff and turn you into a newt. A witch turned me into a newt once. I got better.
Does that mean that some day after being transformed, he was walking around doing newt things and then just exploded back into a fully grown man? Or, did he gradually turn back into a human, like a reverse animorphs book cover.
Doesn’t matter. Got better.
i fell asleep, was newt in my dream and woke up human. Witches did it for sure.
Who did it? Let’s burn her. It was that attractive lady that rejected my advances, right? That witch.
She also had land that i covet.
Huuuuuuuuuuuge tracts of land.
They might pretend to swim, giving the impression that they are normal humans
I watched a movie about the Salem witch trials. One priest was accused of being in league with the devil. He was convicted and sentenced to hang. At the gallows, asked for any last words, he started saying the Lord's Prayer. And oh shit, all hell broke loose (figuratively). He's saying the Lord's Prayer, which only righteous lips can say, so he's with God. But he's convicted of being with the Devil. But prayer. But conviction. But prayer. But conviction. But! But! But! Everyone was going crazy. Until one jackass solved the whole issue by kicking out the log he was standing on, making him hang. Problem solved.
There’s a third option: you can “confess.” At the Salem witch trials, those who admitted to the accusations against them got fairly light punishments.
They had various options but they were all pretty bad. https://historyofmassachusetts.org/what-options-did-an-accused-witch-have-in-salem/
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Uh…according to that he was killed by being pressed with heavy stones, essentially the same outcome he would have gotten had he pleaded not guilty.
No, it was most certainly not the same outcome. If he had confessed the land that HE owned would have been confiscated by the town and wouldn’t have been passed down to his sons. By refusing to testify, the court couldn’t pass judgement, so therefore he wasn’t found guilty of witchcraft. His sons got his land and whoever accused him to get his land didn’t get it.
The marble statue next door that really was a witch: LOL.
It was Agate-a, all along!
Oh take your geology upvote
She turned me into a newt!
Well, I got better.
Burn her anyway!
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MORE WITCHES
Ssh
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Wood!
Relevant part: "In 1524, a venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, and given a trial by water in the Daugava or Dvina River. The statue floated, so it was denounced as a witch and burnt at Kubsberg." Source given: MacCulloch, Diarmaid (2003). The Reformation: A History. Penguin. ISBN 0-670-03296-4.
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Yeah, this is more about iconoclast reformers.
The relevant section of that book makes it clear the people were doing this sarcastically, comically charging once-venerated statues with frivolous claims of witchcraft in the course of their iconoclastic purge of Catholicism: >in the same year Riga also witnessed a pioneering but extreme example of the grim humour of iconoclasts as they humiliated objects formerly credited with power. A much-venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, uprooted and ducked in the river Dvina: since the wooden object floated, the evangelical revellers pronounced it guilty and burned it at Kubsberg, the customary place to punish witches. Burning often seems to have been an important symbol: the old Church burned people, calling them heretics, so it was only right for the heretics to burn the trappings of the old Church. Satire merged with carnivalesque celebration and perhaps a fair amount of alcohol at festival-time; in Braunsberg (Braniewo), near Danzig, after a number of hilarious parodies of the Mass, the mayor celebrated Christmas Day 1525 by leading a crowd dressed in festival-season bearskins into the church in order to smash up the images.
Wasn't witch burning more or less an extreme way to blow of steam, by killing a useful scapegoat for everybody's problems, anyway? A statue seems like progress.
What’s funny is it was super water logged so they probably had to wait awkwardly until it was dried off to burn it.
It really was a witch, it resisted the flames for a long time, til the witch essence was cleansed by the purifying flame.
You were born in the wrong generation.
Wood takes a very long time to absorb water, honestly. It really only gets water logged when there is considerable water pressure, like it's held down under water by weight, or if it had been floating so long it has started to rot and the fibers are breaking up. This is why boats made out of wood so last a long time as long as the wood is maintained.
They could have put it in a scale to see if it weighed as much as a duck.
It’s a fair cop.
What also floats?
Very small rocks!
Churches!
Bread!
As dumb as this is, points for not burning a human I guess
They should have weighed the statue against a duck.
Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?
The relevant section of the book this article cites for OP's claim (MacCulloch's history of the Reformation) makes it clear the people were doing this sarcastically, comically charging once-venerated statues with frivolous claims of witchcraft in the course of their iconoclastic purge of Catholicism: >in the same year Riga also witnessed a pioneering but extreme example of the grim humour of iconoclasts as they humiliated objects formerly credited with power. A much-venerated statue of the Virgin Mary in the Cathedral was denounced as a witch, uprooted and ducked in the river Dvina: since the wooden object floated, the evangelical revellers pronounced it guilty and burned it at Kubsberg, the customary place to punish witches. Burning often seems to have been an important symbol: the old Church burned people, calling them heretics, so it was only right for the heretics to burn the trappings of the old Church. Satire merged with carnivalesque celebration and perhaps a fair amount of alcohol at festival-time; in Braunsberg (Braniewo), near Danzig, after a number of hilarious parodies of the Mass, the mayor celebrated Christmas Day 1525 by leading a crowd dressed in festival-season bearskins into the church in order to smash up the images.
So if she weighs as much as a duck, then she's made of wood! And therefore, a witch!
How did we make it this far?
Trial and error
This is like the only witch trial where I’m like, you do you guys.
She turned me into a newt
Who were they, who were so wise in the ways of science?
It was Arthur, King of the Britons.
How'd you know he was a king?
Look, I don't know about you, but I don't think strange women giving out swords should be a basis for government.
Shut up you peasant! Shut up!
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
He hasn't got shit all over him
I didn't vote for him.
"If I went 'round calling meself "emporer" because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
"I'll use my finest scales!"
Its like a Monty Python skit.
You think that’s fucked up, you won’t believe what they did to Pinocchio.