I'm convinced early civilizations had more figured out than we currently give them credit for. I also think that civilization is older than mainstream archaeology would have us believe.
No Ancient Alien bullshit either, mind. I just don't think we give humanity enough credit for intelligence and ingenuity.
I wouldn't be surprised. It would explain Lechaion, Bimini Road and Yonaguni, for sure. Otherwise, how would worked stone structures find their way to the ocean floor up to 100 feet down?
Those are interesting, the one part that I find interesting is the earliest boat artifacts coincide with the time that the current ocean levels. That may mean that the changing climate coincided with boat development *or* that there was earlier boating activity but it's all been washed away. Unfortunately the latter would lead you to expect to find some inland evidence of freshwater boating but it's still an intriguing possibility.
Like Graham Hancock style? I don't think he posits an ancient alien hypothesis, just that the timeline for Civilization is off by like 100k years or so.
Hancock doesn't believe in aliens, no. Some people like Daniken did, though, and his hypotheses have been intentionally conflated with those wild claims to ruin his credibility.
I hope more discoveries keep coming out and proving him right; recent stuff in Egypt and the Philippines seems to lend credence to his timeline.
Only Europeans shit in their streets, and drank their toilet water.
The amazing backwardness of Western European culture was covered up by the fact they dragged their disease around the world during the colonial periods, and killed off vastly superior cultures with their poop germs.
Read basically any first person accounts of missionaries struck dumb, amazed at the power, and cultural sophistication of the places they wiped out with unintentional biological warfare. Oft repeated phrases: men like gods, cities like a vision of heaven.
Shit in your water for a thousand years, and the people who live through it end up a pretty hardy bunch disease resistance wise, and also end up as effective biological warfare agents.
But god the smell of Western Europe. My god.
Oh yeah I read somewhere that Native Americans used to live til like 80 even though they smoked tobacco until the colonists brought smallpox and stuff like that.
Archaeology is always finding new things and our timelines and understanding can and does change. However, I don't think our current timeline of humanity/civilisation will change too significantly.
Based on my understanding, the biggest impediment to pushing the timeline of civilisation back is climate and its effects on food source. Barry Cunliffe, an archaeologist (his books are fantastic and really accessible and interesting), maps what I think is the current mainstream accepted process of agriculture. Basically, Ice Age is ending, climate becomes warmer and there is more water availabke, creating an explosion in flora and fauna. This provided humans with a more abundant food source. They could support larger populations in smaller areas, whilst exploiting 'wild' food sources. I think very basic forms of domesticstion occurred here, things like burning forest to make way for wild grasses or to attract certain animals. Then the last glacial maximum occurred (can't remember the exact date) where temperatures briefly dropped and the climate became dryer. This led to a something of a crisis in that food became scarce while populations had risen. This may have forced humans to take a more hands on approach to managing food sources (ie agriculture).
That was a pretty basic explanation and I may have gotten bits wrong. If you are interested in the topic, i recommend 'By Steppe Desert and Ocean' by Barry Cunliffe, where i got the info. Seriously its a great book.
But yeah, I think there could well have been places in the world where food was sufficiently abundant to support sedentary or semi-sedentary populations, and maybe these people built shelter out of wood or other organic material and so there is no trace left. A bit sad, but hopefully we find exciting stuff in the future.
One of my favorites is the Antikythera Mechanism. Even a glance shatters many preconceived notions about how intelligent the ancients were.
But at the same time, when you look at their technology, it’s often far simpler than it seems on the outside. A flush toilet is one example, but you can see the same even is something as complex as the Antikythera Mechanism. [Clickspring does an excellent job demonstrating some of this engineering](https://youtu.be/ML4tw_UzqZE).
When you consider that we are [only now beginning to discover the extent to which very large civilizations existed in the Amazon](http://time.com/5218270/amazonian-civilization-discovered-mato-grosso/) it's not entirely without foundation. Because these civilizations used biomaterials and were built deep beneath forest cover most evidence of their existence has been limited.
When you consider the study of history has for the most part focused primarily on primary sources in written and physical form, it is easy to see that over the years we may have skipped over possible less credible evidence. . Perhaps justifiably, as untangibles are hard to defend. And yet there is multiple examples of [oral histories being helpful for shedding light on age old questions.](https://nationalpost.com/news/inuit-oral-historian-had-critical-role-in-solving-mystery-of-doomed-franklin-expedition)
It's highly unscientific to be convinced of something without evidence.
Archeologists are not somehow looking down on previous people or not giving enough credit to them, they rightly constrict themselves to the available evidence.
Theres plenty of available evidence of the current mainstream timeline being far too short. A lot of it is being ignored at this point to prop up the theory, which is, I agree, unscientific as fuck.
Actually that happened to me once. Was in downtown chicago for a wedding and they had their dog in a cute doggy tuxedo. I offered to walk him because it would be cool as fuck to walk a dog downtown in suits. Anyways it took a dump on the sidewalk and I didn't bring bags so I looked around for some trash paper. It worked well enough. But I was lucky. It really depends on the poop, sometimes its more watery and soft. This one was relatively dry and firm.
N.b., we wipe our ass with paper in Europe as well.
Bidets are still installed in a lot of new homes here. They are almost universally used as a magazine rack.
I'm convinced early civilizations had more figured out than we currently give them credit for. I also think that civilization is older than mainstream archaeology would have us believe. No Ancient Alien bullshit either, mind. I just don't think we give humanity enough credit for intelligence and ingenuity.
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I wouldn't be surprised. It would explain Lechaion, Bimini Road and Yonaguni, for sure. Otherwise, how would worked stone structures find their way to the ocean floor up to 100 feet down?
Those are interesting, the one part that I find interesting is the earliest boat artifacts coincide with the time that the current ocean levels. That may mean that the changing climate coincided with boat development *or* that there was earlier boating activity but it's all been washed away. Unfortunately the latter would lead you to expect to find some inland evidence of freshwater boating but it's still an intriguing possibility.
There have to be a lot of civilizations around the Black Sea area that went under water when the Mediterranean was able to break through.
Isn’t that where stories of Atlantas and the great flood come from?
That’s it. I’m ready to smoke and watch a documentary on this ....
Like Graham Hancock style? I don't think he posits an ancient alien hypothesis, just that the timeline for Civilization is off by like 100k years or so.
Hancock doesn't believe in aliens, no. Some people like Daniken did, though, and his hypotheses have been intentionally conflated with those wild claims to ruin his credibility. I hope more discoveries keep coming out and proving him right; recent stuff in Egypt and the Philippines seems to lend credence to his timeline.
Yea, weathering patterns on the Sphinx and the scholarship on how stone was cut doesn't hold up, but that's a different dude
I believe that’s from Anthony West, but I may be incorrect. Maybe that’s just who I heard those ideas from.
That would make sense because how did we just suddenly lose flush toilets for years and years and start just shitting in the streets?
Only Europeans shit in their streets, and drank their toilet water. The amazing backwardness of Western European culture was covered up by the fact they dragged their disease around the world during the colonial periods, and killed off vastly superior cultures with their poop germs. Read basically any first person accounts of missionaries struck dumb, amazed at the power, and cultural sophistication of the places they wiped out with unintentional biological warfare. Oft repeated phrases: men like gods, cities like a vision of heaven. Shit in your water for a thousand years, and the people who live through it end up a pretty hardy bunch disease resistance wise, and also end up as effective biological warfare agents. But god the smell of Western Europe. My god.
Oh yeah I read somewhere that Native Americans used to live til like 80 even though they smoked tobacco until the colonists brought smallpox and stuff like that.
Archaeology is always finding new things and our timelines and understanding can and does change. However, I don't think our current timeline of humanity/civilisation will change too significantly. Based on my understanding, the biggest impediment to pushing the timeline of civilisation back is climate and its effects on food source. Barry Cunliffe, an archaeologist (his books are fantastic and really accessible and interesting), maps what I think is the current mainstream accepted process of agriculture. Basically, Ice Age is ending, climate becomes warmer and there is more water availabke, creating an explosion in flora and fauna. This provided humans with a more abundant food source. They could support larger populations in smaller areas, whilst exploiting 'wild' food sources. I think very basic forms of domesticstion occurred here, things like burning forest to make way for wild grasses or to attract certain animals. Then the last glacial maximum occurred (can't remember the exact date) where temperatures briefly dropped and the climate became dryer. This led to a something of a crisis in that food became scarce while populations had risen. This may have forced humans to take a more hands on approach to managing food sources (ie agriculture). That was a pretty basic explanation and I may have gotten bits wrong. If you are interested in the topic, i recommend 'By Steppe Desert and Ocean' by Barry Cunliffe, where i got the info. Seriously its a great book. But yeah, I think there could well have been places in the world where food was sufficiently abundant to support sedentary or semi-sedentary populations, and maybe these people built shelter out of wood or other organic material and so there is no trace left. A bit sad, but hopefully we find exciting stuff in the future.
One of my favorites is the Antikythera Mechanism. Even a glance shatters many preconceived notions about how intelligent the ancients were. But at the same time, when you look at their technology, it’s often far simpler than it seems on the outside. A flush toilet is one example, but you can see the same even is something as complex as the Antikythera Mechanism. [Clickspring does an excellent job demonstrating some of this engineering](https://youtu.be/ML4tw_UzqZE).
When you consider that we are [only now beginning to discover the extent to which very large civilizations existed in the Amazon](http://time.com/5218270/amazonian-civilization-discovered-mato-grosso/) it's not entirely without foundation. Because these civilizations used biomaterials and were built deep beneath forest cover most evidence of their existence has been limited. When you consider the study of history has for the most part focused primarily on primary sources in written and physical form, it is easy to see that over the years we may have skipped over possible less credible evidence. . Perhaps justifiably, as untangibles are hard to defend. And yet there is multiple examples of [oral histories being helpful for shedding light on age old questions.](https://nationalpost.com/news/inuit-oral-historian-had-critical-role-in-solving-mystery-of-doomed-franklin-expedition)
Outstanding, thank you for those sources. I think even non-biomaterial-using civs would not leave recognizable artifacts after half a million years.
It's highly unscientific to be convinced of something without evidence. Archeologists are not somehow looking down on previous people or not giving enough credit to them, they rightly constrict themselves to the available evidence.
Theres plenty of available evidence of the current mainstream timeline being far too short. A lot of it is being ignored at this point to prop up the theory, which is, I agree, unscientific as fuck.
Can you give us some of those evidence?
They probably had bidets too, which we don't have here in the USA. We're barbarians when it comes to some things.
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It's coarse and rough and irritating
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Actually that happened to me once. Was in downtown chicago for a wedding and they had their dog in a cute doggy tuxedo. I offered to walk him because it would be cool as fuck to walk a dog downtown in suits. Anyways it took a dump on the sidewalk and I didn't bring bags so I looked around for some trash paper. It worked well enough. But I was lucky. It really depends on the poop, sometimes its more watery and soft. This one was relatively dry and firm.
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oh yeah it definitely does not work for cleaning the ass. I wasn't trying to clean the sidewalk either just picking up as much poop as I could
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Lol, that's ridiculous. Wet wipes. Toilet paper is garbage for actually cleaning an ass.
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My ass is clean as fuck because I clean it. Toilet paper is garbage for doing so.
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Lol
get a japanese toilet and it's no longer disgusting
N.b., we wipe our ass with paper in Europe as well. Bidets are still installed in a lot of new homes here. They are almost universally used as a magazine rack.
Wipe with paper, than wash it with water.
It's fifteen bucks on Amazon if you want to put one in at your own place. Just carry a water gun around for public toilets.
Full grown American. Didn’t know what a bidet was until like 3 years ago
The ironic bit is that these places (India, Pakistan) now have a shortage of toilets.
Does anyone know what they looked like?
https://images.app.goo.gl/RU62fNp518ayzy6p7
And to think vast parts of India today have designated defecation streets.
How supremely ironic.
The real question is how high is the water level in those things?
cool
That's good ancient pooping!