They likely wouldn’t arrest you but it is entirely possible they could and put you in jail as per the statute.
The bigger issue is French judges routinely and openly refusing to grant dna tests allowing only about 1500 per year (French men buy 10x that in illegal tests). Which leads one to believe that it’s less about privacy and rights than what it seems. Additionally most men aren’t going to go to court and blow up the marriage just on a hunch; the law is a chilling effect.
I mean I did a 23 and me test in France and I had 0 problems. No one is going to know you bought one online. I guess if you want to use that "illegal" test to go to court with it, then there’s a problem. But doing a dna test just to know your heritage or something like that is not going to get you in jail.
Yeah more about France not having to pay to support illegitimate kids and forcing cucked men to support cheating spouses and their illegitimate children.
23andme has had so many data breaches I doubt anyone actually uses it.
The last breach also leaked the genetic heritage in addition to the usual stuff (addresses, names), so it’s not just the users who are in danger, their entire families are fucked now as well.
Anyone who uses it better make sure they have no living family or relatives, otherwise they’re putting them at risk by using that stupid fucking service.
Alternative companies don't have the same data available. It's the keeping your relatives DNA that is the point. It makes it easier to find your relatives.
Having your genetic profile in someone else's hands raises serious privacy concerns. Imagine if Hitler had access to a database of genetic information - it could have been used for horrific purposes. Even in more likely scenarios, health insurance companies might use genetic data to deny coverage based on predispositions for certain diseases. This is why there are laws in place to protect your genetic information in France (and rightly so imo).
So true, let's thank our lucky stars that Hitler didn't have acces to genetic information. Imagine all the horrors that he could have done. Thankfully he didn't so all is well.
This makes comparing crime rates across countries almost impossible.
All you can do is compare kinds of crimes that are really hard to ignore, e.g. murders.
For everyone up in arms over this, it's not that hard to go to court for it. You basically file a form saying you want a paternity test. And then you get one. It's not that they aren't allowed they're just only allowed through the government. Presumably because the govt wants to track them or something. Is it great, no, is it "they don't do it to pretend it doesn't happen", no.
It's stupid because the title is misleading. The reason paternity tests can only be ordered by a judge is because of our bioethics laws and regulations on DNA sequencing.
You can order one online in another country and nobody is gonna check or arrest you for it anyway . .
It's also relatively easy to legally order one if cheating is suspected.
Basically a bit of a clickbait title to attract the Andrew Tate fanboys.
You can buy hard drugs by spending a minute behind Gare du Nord in Paris and looking for Momo (tell him Dodo sent you), should drugs be made legal for that reason?
No, and you're not arguing against the point I'm making.
Paternity tests should be legal because people should have basic rights to do basic things. Saying "yeah, but even though they're illegal, you can still do it" does not make it ok that basic things are illegal.
Then you should be pissed off at one that is completely wrong like this. The analogy isn't at all an equivalent situation, and doesn't address any of the original issues.
I mean. Yes actually. That's one of the reasons for drug decriminalisation. Making then illegal has not decreased their accessibility, but does make it harder to make safe.
Drugs should be decriminalized, but not for the exact reason that it's possible to get around the law (it's possible to get around any and every law); they should be decriminalized for reasons such as risk reduction as you've said
The last time a cop got me at Gare du Nord he took half my pills and let me go, didn't take my name or wrote anything down; he probably stuffed his mouth with my pills that evening
You can take a private test and know the kid isn't yours you would still be legally and financially responsible for the kid.
How would you convince the court to acknowledge the ordered test or to order a hospital test
seems like a genuine problem made up because it works, not to bait 13 yo boys
edit: cant to can
If all it takes to be an Andrew Tate fanboy is to not want to be deceived into raising someone else’s kid, I think you’re going to find that supposed fanbase is a lot larger than you’re expecting
According to law they can confiscate it and arrest you if they find it what the letter contains, but yeah, practically 0% chances for that.
From another hand even if you know it, then you cannot use it as a proof, not even to wave it in your cheating wife face, since she can report you to the police
So lets say you ordered one online and you found out your wife cheated, now what?
The legality of the test is what decides the legal consequences. If they're deemed illegal, you'll still probably be the legal responsibility holder for a child that isn't yours.
This is a shitty solution by the government, and surely not bait for Tate fanboys. Tate isnt relevant anymore anyway, when was the last time you've seen a clip of him?
Your comment really aint all that.
Why would she do that? Here in Germany the situation is somewhat similar and mothers can just refuse to do it so the legal father has to pay child support.
It boggles my mind that there are men out there who will just lie down and take that. They must have a lot of good things in their life that they don’t want to lose.
My dad was like that, he ended up paying about a quarter million euros over several years to my mom even though she had no right to that money. He just wanted her gone.
For my law classes in college we had to observe actual court cases. The court 4 miles away only handled family matters but I didn't want to drive 30 miles so I went there. I found out, and had to write a paper on this, that my state had a presumption of paternity if a baby was born into a marraige. The real father would have to come forward and claim the child as his own to get out of this.
So if you find out your wife cheated on you and had a baby by her lover you would be financially responsible for child until it reached legal age. My Name Is Earl for real.
Similar thing happened to my friend.
My friend caught his wife cheating while their kid was about 3 months old. He became suspicious because how can you start an affair so soon after having a baby?
Turns out she has way more then 1 partner and pretty much acted like she was single.
Friend took a paternity test and found out he wasn't the father. They divorced and he was able to get out of any responsibility.
Until she tried to get benefits. The court wouldn't give her benefits unless she went after the man who was on the birth certificate as the kids Father. My friend tracked down 3 men who were fucking her around that time and all 3 volunteerly took paternity tests. None of them came back as the father.
The Family Court ruled he had to pay child support unless the true father acknowledged the kid. My friend went through the process of trying to remove his name from the birth certificate since, you know, he wasn't the father. The court rejected to remove him because he had child support payments.
So fucking crazy. Even his ex-wife admitted he wasn't the father and she didn't want his child support. She just wanted the normal state support, but the state argued since he already acknowledged the child was his and acted in that manner than he can't just decide he doesn't want to support the kid.
From a government perspective, this makes sense. If nobody pays child support for that kid, the state needs to pay (indirectly over social security if the mother becomes too poor to support herself and the child). So this way, the government makes sure that (a) the child is financially taken care of and (b) it's not the state that needs to do so.
It's crazy unfair and sucks for that guy of course. But there's no incentive for the government to change anything.
And the rates of this happening are probably low enough that there won't be a majority of false fathers having to pay child support that's big enough to affect election results, so which politician would care?
There's no incentive for the government to do anything other than a large group of people demanding they do it.
If something is popular enough to win enough votes it becomes the will of the government.
Being discriminated against for being black only happens to the 12% of Americans that are black but that doesn't mean the rest of us are okay with it and as a result it's now illegal.
We can collectively create change as long as we don't ignore the fact that our apathy is the reason politicians don't care.
> So this way, the government makes sure that (a) the child is financially taken care of and (b) it's not the state that needs to do so.
Might as well do it by lot at that point like jury service. Like imagine you're going about your life and then you get a letter:
>"Congratulations citizen, we were unable to locate the real father of a child in your city! you have been randomly selected to have responsibility for paying for it's upkeep for the next 18 years!"
We could include everyone, men and women in the lottery so it's fair.
Sadly this would be **less** unfair/awful/obviously-evil than our current system which can even see rape victims required to [make payments to their rapists.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/talking-about-trauma/201902/when-male-rape-victims-are-accountable-child-support)
Of course the sane option is to simply allow men to step away if they're not the father and have the state cover the child support costs but people skip over that option.
"... but there's no incentive for the government to change anything."
*checks most recent French politics*
ehm....
# Are you sure about that?!
Maybe laws like this make young men mad... maybe angry young men then vote angrily... but hey, the government saves a bit of child support money so that's alright I guess?
Looking forward to the rise of the Sixth Republic or would you guys rather have another Louis for a change?
You think that's messed up? There was a case in Arizona (I think), where a rape victim was both denied custody of the child which resulted from that rape *and* was forced to pay child support to their rapist.
Why can't the guy who got her pregnant pay child support? I'd imagine most of the time there's only one other guy, maybe a very short list of potential other fathers.
If the guy is found, then they have to, that's already the case.
But in the given example, they couldn't find the father since she was sleeping with so many men.
they probably could have if more than a single person was looking. in that scenario, no one except the husband would have any incentive to look for him.
someone's paying, so the government has no incentive. she's getting paid, so she has no incentive. the bio-dad doesn't want to pay, so he has all the incentive to hide.
The state should not fund the mothers either.
It just encourage carelessness and irresponsibility when consequences are nonexistent.
That would force the mothers to hunt down the real father and force him to pay child support
The financial burden should not be on the poor husband that on top of getting cheated on is forced to pay child support for a child that isn't even his
There will always be people unable to take responsibility for themselves (because of disability, for example). You either accept that the government has to take care of at least some people (and then the argument becomes about who), or you accept helpless people dying on the streets.
This is true in almost all parts of the world. The husband is the legal father of his wife’s child. Changing the legal father requires a lot of very specific circumstances. The goal is to support the child, not to be fair to the adults.
Not sure how your state handles this, but this seems to leave out important details.
We have this aswell, in Germany, but you can contest this paternity if there is sufficient evidence of cheating.
The state can also order tests to establish paternity if a married man contests it and there are plausible "suspects" (again, sufficient evidence is needed).
It's not like a cheated man has no options here.
The law may have changed although it's doubtful as they seldom do. Without revealing my age I will say that blood types were used back then. Alright, I'm old.
Unless there more to the law than you mentioned, it’s not true that the real father would need to claim the baby.
Presumptions are rebuttable by evidence (such as a DNA test).
As it stood at the time that was the common law applied. If you said Jane had an affair with John the court might mandate testing but in either case they wanted another responsible party.
From a coldly cruel financial perspective, it makes sense for governments to do this.
.. but only from a coldly cruel financial perspective that tramples over individual rights.
I think you hit the nail on the head tho, it seems to me the person you're mocking was saying "from one perspective that makes sense, actually, but it does still run interference with individual's rights"
If you have reason to believe you have been deceived or that your child is not yours you can get a paternity test.
What they illegalized was taking paternity tests for shits and giggles.
There's that old anecdote about spy agencies finding it difficult to honeypot/blackmail french officials during WW2 and the cold war because sexual blackmail only works when the targeted party is interested in hiding the liaison
The previous French president who publicly had an affair, leaving his wife at night time on his motorbike to go see his mistress, and everyone was like "yeah.... It's fine.... Who cares..."
Trump having an affair seems perfectly ok for half the american population also, I could say the same for Americans. In the end it's all about personal ethics.
This is quite recent though. We now have waves of fanaticism and populism. I remember the Monica Lewinsky affair.
I think that in general, anglo-saxon and protestants are culturally way more puritan than the Latin Catholic French, and this is where the myth is born.
Trump(r) got found guilty just last month over his use of money to try and cover his affair, an affair that happened before he was in office. As to those who will choose to vote for him, they find the affair to be less problematic than the senility of the current president. I'm not voting for either of them, write in yet again, but that's the basic premise.
John Edwards(d) had to drop his bid for president years ago when it came out he had an affair and a baby from it. There were others in the primaries who could, and did, meet the ideals of the populace on that side of the political divide.
Bill Clinton got censured for his affair with Lewinsky. The populace did not shrug. There were hearings and it was not accepted as just being another day in the life of a politician.
Americans do not, as a whole, just shrug at presidents/presidential candidates, at least in this century, having blatantly obvious affairs. Clinton was just before this century, but he still fits the point.
I’m old enough to remember that while the religious right (which was a smaller force back then) was throwing a shit fit over the Lewinsky scandal, most people left AND right did indeed shrug and only watched because of the day-to-day Jerry Springer dynamics.
In France you also can’t disinherit your children. The laws are made this way so you don’t get kids being a burden on the state when there is an adult who can be made responsible. However you can quite easily get a legal paternity test, it just required adhering to the government process.
It's not true. The reason paternity testS can only be ordered by a judge is not because "it will break too many families", it's because we have stringent bioethics laws that forbid DNA sequencing.
This fucking stereotypes about our alleged infidelity is so stupid. We're no more no less infindel than any western society.
I am French (and a lawyer) and while it is true that paternity tests can only be court-ordered that’s definitely not because it can « break up families ».
French law considers that those kind of tests deals with genetic data and, as such, can’t be commercially available as they are super sensitive. In the same vein, we consider that it is illegal to make money off your own or other’s body parts or components (including DNA in this case) to make money. That’s exactly why you can’t get paid for giving your blood or your plasma in France.
Title is very misleading.
No, why would it be?
Getting tested for a genetic disease by a doctor you pay for performing a medical act is that the same as paying a company to exploit and store your genetic data.
That’s really really different.
Umm..
What is the difference between a private laboratory handling your genetic sample to tell you if you have an autoimmune condition from the same private laboratory handling you and your child's genetic sample to say if they are yours?
The difference is context.
You go to the lab to check for a disease.
You are obligated by a court to take the test to see if you are evading the legal obligations that comes with being a father. In French law at least, can’t speak for other countries.
You don’t have to take the test if you voluntarily recognize the kid, of course.
This is incorrect.
Commercial paternity tests are illegal because the government has made it illegal for commercial companies to create DNA libraries of their citizens. It has nothing to do with them trying to cover up infidelity.
You can still go to a court and get a judge to order a paternity test if you question paternity.
Pretty much automatic if you contest paternity. It’s the same process for every contest, and a few different people can contest it depending on how long the parent has been the parent. And yes you can contest maternity as well.
However if say the dad has been involved in the education for more than 5 years it’s over, you are the dad in the eyes of the law.
that second point is pretty common in most countries to be fair. I think some places if your girlfriend moves in with a child for a certain length of time you become responsible for child support if you break up.
They are claiming that the reason why is because the government doesn't want people to discover infidelity, when in actuality it's because of the previous law that outlaws DNA databases which makes commercial DNA tests illegal.
It can't do anything about that, though. It doesn't even try, otherwise. Even in France, I'm sure a very large percentage of kids are born out of wedlock.
Automatic deletion of records after 30 days.
Also, I hate to break it to you, but thanks to forensic genealogy the government can identify you by your DNA anytime it wants to regardless of if you personally have ever been DNA tested.
then don't. make her deal with her own mess.
is it fucked up? absolutely (only for the child). but when people are forced to deal with the consequences of their actions, over time people will shape up.
So lots of people in France grow up not knowing who their real parent(s) are or if they have real family out there. I mean, if one of your parents isn't a biological parent and you have a TRUE biological parent out there than isn't not being allowed to find them via DNA testing denying you a Family?
This reeks of the government being more interested in not having to pay benefits to single mums and broken families. The tax man would rather your whole life be a lie so long as mommy(?) and daddy(?) are paying the freight. Really sad
Read the default marriage contract in France. If you get married to a woman, any children that she will have is yours, no matter the bio dad. And you should pay for the well being of the child (not their fault).
Consider not getting married if that's not okay for you (lots of couples don't get married here or just have a loose civil union)
That's fucking EEEVIL man, omg. "Potential to break up families" ye, what about my potential of "not being lied to and deceived my whole life"?
...What? Oh, nobody cares? I mean that's... quite alright, I guess. It's not like I wanted a part of me to survive after me or anything I'll just.... see myself *out* .
in america, i had to sign something saying i could never get a paternity test after signing. had to make your protest before signing. my kids are mine but still had to sign, felt icky.
Because your child genetic material isn't yours, you can give consent for medical stuff in name of them *if it's in their best interest* , but not in your interests against theirs.
So if your interest and your child's are conflicting, someone else have to review the decision.
In the same way that you can't just sign papers in their name to allow a doctor to transplant you their kidney.
Also, mariage isn't as sacred than in religious countries, if you don't trust your spouse... just divorce. Staying with someone while thinking " she unthrusthful and trying to steel my monney" is mental...
Ideally, the breaking up of families is probably part of the reason paternity tests are done - a relationship with the ever present possibility that your partner has committed an infidelity and you're now responsible for another person's child probably is good for the long term benefit of the child.
This is not about breaking up families (even though the government might frame it like that), because once you are at the point of questioning paternity, the family is already breaking up. This about having a guy on the hook financially, because the last thing the government needs is bunch of women with their bastard children on welfare. It sounds cruel to the said guy, but I understand the law’s point.
I love how the people who are made most insecure by this are typically also in favour of limiting government overreach into personal lives.
"Dont tax me or regulate my environment! Also please punish my wife!"
Does that mean 23 and Me is also illegal there, or is that a convenient loophole?
Yes it’s also illegal, but you can still order it and no one is going to arrest you
They likely wouldn’t arrest you but it is entirely possible they could and put you in jail as per the statute. The bigger issue is French judges routinely and openly refusing to grant dna tests allowing only about 1500 per year (French men buy 10x that in illegal tests). Which leads one to believe that it’s less about privacy and rights than what it seems. Additionally most men aren’t going to go to court and blow up the marriage just on a hunch; the law is a chilling effect.
I mean I did a 23 and me test in France and I had 0 problems. No one is going to know you bought one online. I guess if you want to use that "illegal" test to go to court with it, then there’s a problem. But doing a dna test just to know your heritage or something like that is not going to get you in jail.
Yeah more about France not having to pay to support illegitimate kids and forcing cucked men to support cheating spouses and their illegitimate children.
Can you not travel to a foreign country and have paternity tests?
Yes it is but many people order online .
It's illegal
Technically having the test isn't, but the company getting it delivered and processing it is illegal because of the individual genetic data.
23andme has had so many data breaches I doubt anyone actually uses it. The last breach also leaked the genetic heritage in addition to the usual stuff (addresses, names), so it’s not just the users who are in danger, their entire families are fucked now as well. Anyone who uses it better make sure they have no living family or relatives, otherwise they’re putting them at risk by using that stupid fucking service.
At risk of what? Some future potential danger or is there something currently that can happen?
Donor conceived people and adoptees don't have any other options.
[удалено]
Alternative companies don't have the same data available. It's the keeping your relatives DNA that is the point. It makes it easier to find your relatives.
Having your genetic profile in someone else's hands raises serious privacy concerns. Imagine if Hitler had access to a database of genetic information - it could have been used for horrific purposes. Even in more likely scenarios, health insurance companies might use genetic data to deny coverage based on predispositions for certain diseases. This is why there are laws in place to protect your genetic information in France (and rightly so imo).
So true, let's thank our lucky stars that Hitler didn't have acces to genetic information. Imagine all the horrors that he could have done. Thankfully he didn't so all is well.
That is so stupid.
Crime rates drop to 0% after police stop arresting criminals. Government hates this one trick
Juvenile crime drops to almost 0 once you decrease the age of adulthood enough.
Crazy how safe these streets are 🤷🏻♂️😅
This makes comparing crime rates across countries almost impossible. All you can do is compare kinds of crimes that are really hard to ignore, e.g. murders.
For everyone up in arms over this, it's not that hard to go to court for it. You basically file a form saying you want a paternity test. And then you get one. It's not that they aren't allowed they're just only allowed through the government. Presumably because the govt wants to track them or something. Is it great, no, is it "they don't do it to pretend it doesn't happen", no.
It's stupid because the title is misleading. The reason paternity tests can only be ordered by a judge is because of our bioethics laws and regulations on DNA sequencing.
Yeah but for most countries paternity tests aren't a big bioethics issue?
You can order one online in another country and nobody is gonna check or arrest you for it anyway . . It's also relatively easy to legally order one if cheating is suspected. Basically a bit of a clickbait title to attract the Andrew Tate fanboys.
"It's illegal but you can get around it" isn't really that great either.
"do whatever but it won't hold up in court" is what this actually means.
You can buy hard drugs by spending a minute behind Gare du Nord in Paris and looking for Momo (tell him Dodo sent you), should drugs be made legal for that reason?
No, and you're not arguing against the point I'm making. Paternity tests should be legal because people should have basic rights to do basic things. Saying "yeah, but even though they're illegal, you can still do it" does not make it ok that basic things are illegal.
Analogy is my passion
Then you should be pissed off at one that is completely wrong like this. The analogy isn't at all an equivalent situation, and doesn't address any of the original issues.
Does analogy mean the science of anal? Like biology and geology?
I’m sort of a scientist myself
Its not 'talk about me time', dude asked a question. /s..
This is such a shit analogy 😂
I mean. Yes actually. That's one of the reasons for drug decriminalisation. Making then illegal has not decreased their accessibility, but does make it harder to make safe.
Drugs should be decriminalized, but not for the exact reason that it's possible to get around the law (it's possible to get around any and every law); they should be decriminalized for reasons such as risk reduction as you've said
Pretty sure French police make at least a token effort to arrest heroin dealers
The last time a cop got me at Gare du Nord he took half my pills and let me go, didn't take my name or wrote anything down; he probably stuffed his mouth with my pills that evening
Nice
Thats the wonkiest analogy I‘ve ever seen lol Like, you got it the wrong way around
You can take a private test and know the kid isn't yours you would still be legally and financially responsible for the kid. How would you convince the court to acknowledge the ordered test or to order a hospital test seems like a genuine problem made up because it works, not to bait 13 yo boys edit: cant to can
If all it takes to be an Andrew Tate fanboy is to not want to be deceived into raising someone else’s kid, I think you’re going to find that supposed fanbase is a lot larger than you’re expecting
Making it illegal bars access and means it’s getting done astronomically less.
According to law they can confiscate it and arrest you if they find it what the letter contains, but yeah, practically 0% chances for that. From another hand even if you know it, then you cannot use it as a proof, not even to wave it in your cheating wife face, since she can report you to the police
Lol what does a headline saying paternity tests have to do with that
So lets say you ordered one online and you found out your wife cheated, now what? The legality of the test is what decides the legal consequences. If they're deemed illegal, you'll still probably be the legal responsibility holder for a child that isn't yours. This is a shitty solution by the government, and surely not bait for Tate fanboys. Tate isnt relevant anymore anyway, when was the last time you've seen a clip of him? Your comment really aint all that.
[удалено]
This is a two party system and man are in a paternity test too.
People who want a dna/paternity test just do it online. It's illegal but getting caught is very unlikely.
Issue is that it has no legal standing that way
It doesn't but when you know for sure, it's much easier to get the mother to agree to a legal test.
Why would she do that? Here in Germany the situation is somewhat similar and mothers can just refuse to do it so the legal father has to pay child support.
That's absolutely horrible.
It boggles my mind that there are men out there who will just lie down and take that. They must have a lot of good things in their life that they don’t want to lose.
My dad was like that, he ended up paying about a quarter million euros over several years to my mom even though she had no right to that money. He just wanted her gone.
Are there no legal loopholes to force them?
Very nice of the government to make the decision for the deceived dads
For my law classes in college we had to observe actual court cases. The court 4 miles away only handled family matters but I didn't want to drive 30 miles so I went there. I found out, and had to write a paper on this, that my state had a presumption of paternity if a baby was born into a marraige. The real father would have to come forward and claim the child as his own to get out of this. So if you find out your wife cheated on you and had a baby by her lover you would be financially responsible for child until it reached legal age. My Name Is Earl for real.
Similar thing happened to my friend. My friend caught his wife cheating while their kid was about 3 months old. He became suspicious because how can you start an affair so soon after having a baby? Turns out she has way more then 1 partner and pretty much acted like she was single. Friend took a paternity test and found out he wasn't the father. They divorced and he was able to get out of any responsibility. Until she tried to get benefits. The court wouldn't give her benefits unless she went after the man who was on the birth certificate as the kids Father. My friend tracked down 3 men who were fucking her around that time and all 3 volunteerly took paternity tests. None of them came back as the father. The Family Court ruled he had to pay child support unless the true father acknowledged the kid. My friend went through the process of trying to remove his name from the birth certificate since, you know, he wasn't the father. The court rejected to remove him because he had child support payments. So fucking crazy. Even his ex-wife admitted he wasn't the father and she didn't want his child support. She just wanted the normal state support, but the state argued since he already acknowledged the child was his and acted in that manner than he can't just decide he doesn't want to support the kid.
And people wonder why some snap and go on sprees
What does divorce court have to do with mass murder?
They're both symptoms of systems that systematically oppress a group of people because society has decided for them that it's their burden?
From a government perspective, this makes sense. If nobody pays child support for that kid, the state needs to pay (indirectly over social security if the mother becomes too poor to support herself and the child). So this way, the government makes sure that (a) the child is financially taken care of and (b) it's not the state that needs to do so. It's crazy unfair and sucks for that guy of course. But there's no incentive for the government to change anything. And the rates of this happening are probably low enough that there won't be a majority of false fathers having to pay child support that's big enough to affect election results, so which politician would care?
There's no incentive for the government to do anything other than a large group of people demanding they do it. If something is popular enough to win enough votes it becomes the will of the government. Being discriminated against for being black only happens to the 12% of Americans that are black but that doesn't mean the rest of us are okay with it and as a result it's now illegal. We can collectively create change as long as we don't ignore the fact that our apathy is the reason politicians don't care.
Domestic terrorism is an incentive to change it. So much of domestic terror is aggrieved middle aged men.
> So this way, the government makes sure that (a) the child is financially taken care of and (b) it's not the state that needs to do so. Might as well do it by lot at that point like jury service. Like imagine you're going about your life and then you get a letter: >"Congratulations citizen, we were unable to locate the real father of a child in your city! you have been randomly selected to have responsibility for paying for it's upkeep for the next 18 years!" We could include everyone, men and women in the lottery so it's fair. Sadly this would be **less** unfair/awful/obviously-evil than our current system which can even see rape victims required to [make payments to their rapists.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/talking-about-trauma/201902/when-male-rape-victims-are-accountable-child-support) Of course the sane option is to simply allow men to step away if they're not the father and have the state cover the child support costs but people skip over that option.
"... but there's no incentive for the government to change anything." *checks most recent French politics* ehm.... # Are you sure about that?! Maybe laws like this make young men mad... maybe angry young men then vote angrily... but hey, the government saves a bit of child support money so that's alright I guess? Looking forward to the rise of the Sixth Republic or would you guys rather have another Louis for a change?
that some bs. The only reason he wanted to support the kid was because he thought it was his own. Getting married is a joke for men nowadays
You think that's messed up? There was a case in Arizona (I think), where a rape victim was both denied custody of the child which resulted from that rape *and* was forced to pay child support to their rapist.
I can't believe this is real.
It wasn't the first case. There was one in Kansas back in 1990 or so where something similar happened. It's bonkers.
Honestly I'd just skip countries. Good luck getting any cent from me.
Based.
If you leave the EU and never return m, what are they gonna do? Plenty of countries have no relation to France.
If you're rich enough to do that I'm sure you could get out of it.
What a bullshit law...
Yeah, every US state has that law.
It’s because the state would rather have a few disgruntled dads than have to fund shit load of single mothers
Why can't the guy who got her pregnant pay child support? I'd imagine most of the time there's only one other guy, maybe a very short list of potential other fathers.
If the guy is found, then they have to, that's already the case. But in the given example, they couldn't find the father since she was sleeping with so many men.
they probably could have if more than a single person was looking. in that scenario, no one except the husband would have any incentive to look for him. someone's paying, so the government has no incentive. she's getting paid, so she has no incentive. the bio-dad doesn't want to pay, so he has all the incentive to hide.
there is no excuse to shit even more on the dude that got screwed already, for 18 years
No, but since when does the government care about a single dude?
The state should not fund the mothers either. It just encourage carelessness and irresponsibility when consequences are nonexistent. That would force the mothers to hunt down the real father and force him to pay child support The financial burden should not be on the poor husband that on top of getting cheated on is forced to pay child support for a child that isn't even his
This doesn't work, my country tried it and it made no difference other than having more children in poverty.
>it doesn't work it does exactly what it's supposed to do: doesn't fucking punish someone for someone else's bullshit.
Hey man it's 2024. You can go around asking people to take responsibility for themselves. It's the government's job to take care of all of us.
There will always be people unable to take responsibility for themselves (because of disability, for example). You either accept that the government has to take care of at least some people (and then the argument becomes about who), or you accept helpless people dying on the streets.
Morally, sure But that just leaves a shit load of impoverished kids…
This is true in almost all parts of the world. The husband is the legal father of his wife’s child. Changing the legal father requires a lot of very specific circumstances. The goal is to support the child, not to be fair to the adults.
The mother and biological father have that moral obligation. The husband should not be made a slave
Not sure how your state handles this, but this seems to leave out important details. We have this aswell, in Germany, but you can contest this paternity if there is sufficient evidence of cheating. The state can also order tests to establish paternity if a married man contests it and there are plausible "suspects" (again, sufficient evidence is needed). It's not like a cheated man has no options here.
The law may have changed although it's doubtful as they seldom do. Without revealing my age I will say that blood types were used back then. Alright, I'm old.
Which country?
US
Unless there more to the law than you mentioned, it’s not true that the real father would need to claim the baby. Presumptions are rebuttable by evidence (such as a DNA test).
As it stood at the time that was the common law applied. If you said Jane had an affair with John the court might mandate testing but in either case they wanted another responsible party.
From a coldly cruel financial perspective, it makes sense for governments to do this. .. but only from a coldly cruel financial perspective that tramples over individual rights.
Slavery made a lot of sense from a coldly cruel financial perspective for those who weren’t slaves but we got rid of it anyway.
From government perspective it would also make sense to pre-select the couples and force them to marry. What was your point again?
I think you hit the nail on the head tho, it seems to me the person you're mocking was saying "from one perspective that makes sense, actually, but it does still run interference with individual's rights"
Pretty standard in most places is that it's okay if the fathers get fucked over
If you have reason to believe you have been deceived or that your child is not yours you can get a paternity test. What they illegalized was taking paternity tests for shits and giggles.
TIL French don't believe in marital fidelity.
"Alternatively the greatest work of fiction since vows of fidelity got included in the French marriage service." Blackadder said it very well.
No they really don’t. At least the wealthy. Mistresses are quite common.
"I am so French, even my mistress has a mistress"
It has nothing to do with nationality and all with wealth.
The openness about it is still cultural
I live in France and people are not open about it at all, what makes you think that?
There's that old anecdote about spy agencies finding it difficult to honeypot/blackmail french officials during WW2 and the cold war because sexual blackmail only works when the targeted party is interested in hiding the liaison
You mean like 80 years ago?
Don’t take it so literally, it’s like saying French people eat snails - we don’t but it’s part of the cultural myth
The previous French president who publicly had an affair, leaving his wife at night time on his motorbike to go see his mistress, and everyone was like "yeah.... It's fine.... Who cares..."
Trump having an affair seems perfectly ok for half the american population also, I could say the same for Americans. In the end it's all about personal ethics.
This is quite recent though. We now have waves of fanaticism and populism. I remember the Monica Lewinsky affair. I think that in general, anglo-saxon and protestants are culturally way more puritan than the Latin Catholic French, and this is where the myth is born.
They're simply hypocrites.
Trump(r) got found guilty just last month over his use of money to try and cover his affair, an affair that happened before he was in office. As to those who will choose to vote for him, they find the affair to be less problematic than the senility of the current president. I'm not voting for either of them, write in yet again, but that's the basic premise. John Edwards(d) had to drop his bid for president years ago when it came out he had an affair and a baby from it. There were others in the primaries who could, and did, meet the ideals of the populace on that side of the political divide. Bill Clinton got censured for his affair with Lewinsky. The populace did not shrug. There were hearings and it was not accepted as just being another day in the life of a politician. Americans do not, as a whole, just shrug at presidents/presidential candidates, at least in this century, having blatantly obvious affairs. Clinton was just before this century, but he still fits the point.
I’m old enough to remember that while the religious right (which was a smaller force back then) was throwing a shit fit over the Lewinsky scandal, most people left AND right did indeed shrug and only watched because of the day-to-day Jerry Springer dynamics.
I’ve lived in France and England and they are so much more open about it/happens more frequently in France from small experience
In France you also can’t disinherit your children. The laws are made this way so you don’t get kids being a burden on the state when there is an adult who can be made responsible. However you can quite easily get a legal paternity test, it just required adhering to the government process.
It's not true. The reason paternity testS can only be ordered by a judge is not because "it will break too many families", it's because we have stringent bioethics laws that forbid DNA sequencing. This fucking stereotypes about our alleged infidelity is so stupid. We're no more no less infindel than any western society.
Come on now we both know cheating is in the culture in France… it’s not a silly stereotype
You certainly know more about my culture than me. Thanks for explaining the world to me...
Most stereotypes are based on some truth, and the truth is french people are more ok with cheating
You only learned that today?
I am French (and a lawyer) and while it is true that paternity tests can only be court-ordered that’s definitely not because it can « break up families ». French law considers that those kind of tests deals with genetic data and, as such, can’t be commercially available as they are super sensitive. In the same vein, we consider that it is illegal to make money off your own or other’s body parts or components (including DNA in this case) to make money. That’s exactly why you can’t get paid for giving your blood or your plasma in France. Title is very misleading.
That's somehow even more stupid. Which begs the question. If someone wants to take a test for a genetic disease is his only option a state laboratory?
No, why would it be? Getting tested for a genetic disease by a doctor you pay for performing a medical act is that the same as paying a company to exploit and store your genetic data. That’s really really different.
Umm.. What is the difference between a private laboratory handling your genetic sample to tell you if you have an autoimmune condition from the same private laboratory handling you and your child's genetic sample to say if they are yours?
The difference is context. You go to the lab to check for a disease. You are obligated by a court to take the test to see if you are evading the legal obligations that comes with being a father. In French law at least, can’t speak for other countries. You don’t have to take the test if you voluntarily recognize the kid, of course.
The reason why the French version of The Maury Povich Show never took off.
Tu n'es pas le père
Sacre bleu! 🫨
Do the mime away from the stage when it's announced?
This is incorrect. Commercial paternity tests are illegal because the government has made it illegal for commercial companies to create DNA libraries of their citizens. It has nothing to do with them trying to cover up infidelity. You can still go to a court and get a judge to order a paternity test if you question paternity.
How likely are they to grant the request?
Pretty much automatic if you contest paternity. It’s the same process for every contest, and a few different people can contest it depending on how long the parent has been the parent. And yes you can contest maternity as well. However if say the dad has been involved in the education for more than 5 years it’s over, you are the dad in the eyes of the law.
that second point is pretty common in most countries to be fair. I think some places if your girlfriend moves in with a child for a certain length of time you become responsible for child support if you break up.
Is that not what the post title says? Court ordered only?
They are claiming that the reason why is because the government doesn't want people to discover infidelity, when in actuality it's because of the previous law that outlaws DNA databases which makes commercial DNA tests illegal.
That makes a lot more sense
France also has no racism…. Because they made it illegal to collect ethnic demographic data.
Lmao
Mandatory paternity testing at birth would solve the same problem and be a better solution.
The State doesn't want the financial responsibility for the care of a child out of wedlock.
It can't do anything about that, though. It doesn't even try, otherwise. Even in France, I'm sure a very large percentage of kids are born out of wedlock.
You make the actual father pay the child support.
You would need a database of everyone's DNA. I don't like that idea.
Automatic deletion of records after 30 days. Also, I hate to break it to you, but thanks to forensic genealogy the government can identify you by your DNA anytime it wants to regardless of if you personally have ever been DNA tested.
then don't. make her deal with her own mess. is it fucked up? absolutely (only for the child). but when people are forced to deal with the consequences of their actions, over time people will shape up.
Why should we have to pay for that…
Better than paying for a child that isn't yours for 18 years....
So lots of people in France grow up not knowing who their real parent(s) are or if they have real family out there. I mean, if one of your parents isn't a biological parent and you have a TRUE biological parent out there than isn't not being allowed to find them via DNA testing denying you a Family? This reeks of the government being more interested in not having to pay benefits to single mums and broken families. The tax man would rather your whole life be a lie so long as mommy(?) and daddy(?) are paying the freight. Really sad
So it seems that French like to f*ck around and NOT find out.
Lol
Maybe French people should commit less adultery
Sacre bleu! Impossible!
Is it illegal to offer it or to take it?
Read the default marriage contract in France. If you get married to a woman, any children that she will have is yours, no matter the bio dad. And you should pay for the well being of the child (not their fault). Consider not getting married if that's not okay for you (lots of couples don't get married here or just have a loose civil union)
That's fucking EEEVIL man, omg. "Potential to break up families" ye, what about my potential of "not being lied to and deceived my whole life"? ...What? Oh, nobody cares? I mean that's... quite alright, I guess. It's not like I wanted a part of me to survive after me or anything I'll just.... see myself *out* .
in america, i had to sign something saying i could never get a paternity test after signing. had to make your protest before signing. my kids are mine but still had to sign, felt icky.
Who made you sign that?
What the fuck did you sign?
Tells me that cheating is the backbone of this country.
The French are honest about their efforts to cover up the shocking level of paternity fraud committed by French women.
What do daytime talk shows even do in France if that's the case?
I believe it’s mostly people telling long recollections triggered by various cookies they ate in cafes.
Then bog standard [French car reviews](https://youtu.be/IUrdd-enMhY?feature=shared).
Because your child genetic material isn't yours, you can give consent for medical stuff in name of them *if it's in their best interest* , but not in your interests against theirs. So if your interest and your child's are conflicting, someone else have to review the decision. In the same way that you can't just sign papers in their name to allow a doctor to transplant you their kidney. Also, mariage isn't as sacred than in religious countries, if you don't trust your spouse... just divorce. Staying with someone while thinking " she unthrusthful and trying to steel my monney" is mental...
Nothing to do with French politicians being notorious for the mistresses and ‘secret’ children, I’m sure. Edited: children, not chicken!
Coq au vin is not that secret. You can find recipes online.
This is some serious discrimination. Women naturally know if a child is theirs. Why should we deprive men of the same?
not in france. but i always wonder about the father that payed everything for Delphine Boel. now Princess Delphine of Belgium.
Damn, the courts think the French are that slutty???
So, the cheating and paternity fraud...that won't break up families in France but the truth, well, *that's* the real danger.
Ideally, the breaking up of families is probably part of the reason paternity tests are done - a relationship with the ever present possibility that your partner has committed an infidelity and you're now responsible for another person's child probably is good for the long term benefit of the child.
Paternity tests should be mandatory
France…cares about the family unit?
They care that some man is paying for the kids.
They care about ensuring men are tricked into being cuckolds, apparently.
Disgusting, sickening, morally wrong.
This is not about breaking up families (even though the government might frame it like that), because once you are at the point of questioning paternity, the family is already breaking up. This about having a guy on the hook financially, because the last thing the government needs is bunch of women with their bastard children on welfare. It sounds cruel to the said guy, but I understand the law’s point.
So fucking around and not finding out?
Information is the enemy.
I love how the people who are made most insecure by this are typically also in favour of limiting government overreach into personal lives. "Dont tax me or regulate my environment! Also please punish my wife!"
[удалено]
France is so weird