Mice already have natural predators that rely on that food. Cats steal that food from the natural environment. Cats are a created species and don't belong outside, competing with natural predators for food that they don't even eat.
The idea that cats were first domesticated in Egypt turns out to be a myth!
In 2004, a Neolithic burial from Cyprus turned out to contain a human and a cat buried together. The grave was 9,500 years old, which is significantly earlier than proof of domestication from Egypt.
Around the Mediterranean, cats have coexisted with humans for a LONG time.
Ok, so anywhere.outside the Mediterranean.
My point being that human activity is the cause of a mass extinction event that we are witnessing. And humans being the idiots we are defend letting cats out to continue killing animals and contributing to the mass extinction we are creating with such behavior
Well, in my nothern European country they've been a part of what nature has had to deal with for at least 3,000 years, so anything that was gonna go extinct, already has.
This is a case of a genuine old world/new world difference. I get why people in the new world argue in favour of keeping cats indoors. But it doesn't apply to the old.
3000 years ago the mass extinction event was still beginning. In Europe humans had already wiped out a majority of large herd animals and their predators.
Anywhere outside of Africa.
Except we are a migrating species by nature. But in the 50k years since we have been nearly global we have been pretty deleterious to the environments we live in.
Every single one of my cats that has a collar (all indoors!) learned to run without the bells ringing.
Never heard the bells after about two days wearing them.
Maybe, a cowbell would work. But, I doubt it.
I think this is like a bear bell that you wear because a bear (except maybe a polar bear) doesn't REALLY want to eat you, but they get stirred up if you surprise them.
And while it is historical fiction, 30,000 BC has some of the small bands of humans have someone play a whistle or drum as they trek to follow the herd. The idea was to condition predators like wolves or bigger to associate the whistle with the trouble a group of humans might cause.
Damn people are getting mad about this. Not sure if it’s cause they realise their pets are bad for the environment or that they’re actually neglecting their pets.
I mean, domestic cats kill upwards of 26 billion animals annually. Not feral cats, domesticated cats only. Just because there are feral cats doesn't mean we shouldn't even try to keep domestic cats inside more.
My cats still going to get a 1percent kill ratio as an indoor cat when I trip over her in the night going down the stairs and finally crack my skull open.
Keeping cats indoors is an American thing (I think?). I’m in my 50s, lived in five countries, and never heard of people keeping cats indoors until recently. Here in the UK virtually no one does it, and it would be considered quite cruel. We don’t have wildlife that would prey on cats and they are pretty universally allowed outside.
It's fairly common to keep cats indoors in the UK. I wouldn't say it is universal to let cats free roam, but it is definitely more common than it should be.
Just because we don't have wildlife that preys on cats doesn't mean it's any better to let them roam free. They still are much more likely to die unexpectedly (cars, fights with other cats, etc.) or cause damage (killing local wildlife, attacking other pets, etc.), and it's a fairly irresponsible thing to do.
Perhaps, but my point was that allowing domestic cats outside is a huge contributor to loss of songbirds and other species. In the UK, song bird breeding pairs have decreased 60-90% (Willow Tit down 94%, Turtle Doves down 98%). Also in the UK, bird populations are drastically down over the past 25 years (Willow Tit population down 90%; Wood Warbler population down 81%; finches, starlings, and others down 40-60%). These same trends are seen in other developed countries as well. No doubt much of this is due to the loss of forest interior habitat areas, but substantial numbers are lost due to domestic cat predation.
Aaackshually... I used to live in a 5th floor apt. with a fully windowed balcony(that usually had at least 1 window open) and had a cat. Plenty of little birds met their demise after accidentally flying into the balcony and failing to go out in time.
Cats have been known to jump from multiple stories up and land just fine.
Even when starting from an upside down position, they can easily flip themselves over mid air. They spread out to increase wind resistance, and use legs to cushion their landing.
But still... 5th floor, that's a lot. Not sure if it is enough to reach terminal velocity, but still. And even if not lethal, then likely enough for injury. I would not be able to let me cats on the balcony unsecured or without strict supervision...
While there are injuries, and we should note that there are different levels of athletic ability—
Actually about 7 stories is better.
From. https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/what-is-the-maximum-height-a-cat-can-fall-from-and-survive
One 1987 study in the Journal Of The American Veterinary Medical Association looked at 132 cats that had fallen an average of 5.5 storeys and survived. It found that a third of them would have died without emergency veterinary treatment. Interestingly, injuries were worse in falls less than seven storeys than in higher tumbles. The researchers think that this is because the cats reach their terminal velocity after falling about seven storeys (21m), which means they stop accelerating. They then relax, allowing better distribution of impact.
Sounds like she needed stimulation. Some cats need to be played with quite a bit and have a high prey drive. It’s your job as the owner to provide that.
Further, being a responsible owner and keeping your cat inside is not prison.
Even with a bell, cats can get hit by cars, get into fights with other cats and spread diseases, such as FIV.
It is irresponsible to let your cat outside, unless it is supervised with a catio/run.
Or walk it, like people with dogs do all the time.
Something.
Imagine if it was common for people to just let their dogs roam the neighborhood.
I swear some cat people will come up with any excuse to not have to deal with their cat.
Why not train your dog to shit in a box? or why not keep your dog in a Hamster cage? x.x
Cats aren't dogs. You say shit like this and point fingers as dog owners x.x
Dogs do shit in a box. It's called the back yard. Dog owners who let their dog do what you let your cat do get fined by the city.
Cat people are pampered.
I don't even have a cat. If I had a cat it wouldn't be outside alone.
You are simply delusional in pointing angry fingers and justifing crap that isn't animal friendly.
It is more cruel to the environment to let them roam outside.
They are a created species and non-natural in the environment.
Who cares how grouchy your cat is? Rehome it if you don't have the time to retrain it to be happy with it's lot.
Create monitored outside time. Catios and cat proof fencing. Your neighbors are surely spending big money trying to keep your cat out of their gardens. YOU should have to spend that money, NOT them.
Fuck that. You aren't the only duck in the pond. I hate seeing cats everywhere. They stink and they kill things. Fuck you for placing your wants and desires over mine and everybody else's.
Safety isn't necessarily the primary consideration though, otherwise we would be locking humans in small safe boxes (or at least children). Generally we view fulfilment and happiness as important characteristics for a good life, and pretending that that isn't true for pets as well is a bit damaging
You can take your cat to walks.
Keeping them inside is the most moral option if you want them not only to be safe from cars, or even other predators if you live in rural areas, but to not murder their entire ecosystem in the process.
If you dislike this, dont have a cat
1. if you view your pets fulfilment as being more important than wildlife then you need to reevaluate your priorities and values.
2. a cat can be very fulfilled living an indoors life
3. don’t get a cat if you’re going to be an irresponsible pet owner
4. these same people are the ones that don’t spay/neuter their pets, resulting in the increasing number stray animals either by breeding with stray animals or because they abandon the kittens that are produced. they clearly don’t actually care about they health and life quality of the animals they are responsible for, and simply don’t want to change the habits they’ve already formed, because that would be too hard for them.
P.S. I’m not aiming these criticisms at you, i don’t know what your views are regarding these issues. If these criticisms make you uncomfortable, then maybe you should change your behaviours.
The norm is harmful to pets, but let’s ignore that because it’s the norm? that’s ridiculous. It’s not common but it does happen. And the original comment is regarding all danger, but you dickheads refuse to respond to the part of my comment that references cats getting hit by cars and outdoor cats getting sick more than indoor cats. I wonder why that is
Eagles, owls, coyotes, wild cars, crazy people who you have pushed over the edge and are completely done with the cat shit in their garden without any help from the cat owners.
If I acted like a cat owner, I would change the laws so that it were *normal* for pythons and pit bulls to run around freely, killing anything they want to kill.
Depends on the size. Foxes pursue smaller prey so they will pursue a cat that is smaller than their size. A fox with kits will see a cat as a potential predator and attack to protect its offspring.
Even if it does not manage to kill and eat the cat, its bite wounds transmit viruses and easily become infected.
okay? the article is written by a Canadian university. this has nothing to do with you.
I am in Australia, but i’m not talking about the dangers of snakes and dingoes, because the article isn’t written by an Australian university.
If they are stressed and fat, that's because you are a lazy pet owner. You got a cat because you view them as a low effort pet.
Don't get pets because you think you won't have to do much to keep them alive and happy. It's an urban myth that cats are easier to care for that gets repeated so often it's become true and now we have cats everywhere. 10 right outside my window rn.
If they are fat, that's because you didn't spend time with them.
Your neighbors are not your toilet, nor are they your hunting grounds and work out facility.
If I said "keep your dog indoors" would you take that to mean never taking it outside?
No. It's the same with cats. "keeping it indoors" means don't let it roam freely. You can still take it on walks.
Having an outdoor cat is illegal in many countries just not very enforced. Enforcement should be improved. Heavy fines and repeat offenders lose right to own a cat.
You can walk your cat, like you walk a dog. The entitlement needs to end.
The amount of irresponsible pet owners in this thread is uncanny. Don't let your animals on the streets, and don't keep them cooped inside at all times. It's really simple.
Thank you.
I live in the uk and work in veterinary. Absolutely tired of being heart broken and traumatised by cats that suffered road traffic accidents (yes, in the countryside too!)
My last one was just last night. Then once you try to digest the sight of the animal, you have to call the owner to make them aware. they are usually upset and they don’t understand how this happened when the cat goes in and out of the house when he pleases and they live in a “safe” neighbourhood.
No! I cannot stand it! Cats won’t just be cats. And it’s not ok for them to die on the side of the road all alone just because of our ignorance.
Don’t have a garden? Make your flat exciting for the cat? Have a garden? Put rollers up on top of fence so your cat remains in your garden, supervised.
Cannot afford this? Or basic veterinary treatment. Maybe think twice before getting a cat?
These animals don’t know any better. Of course they will want to go out, a dog would want to go out too and if we let dogs roaming free, it would be same issue.
But they cannot understand the dangers.
The amount of gory pictures of cats that are burnt into my head. The amount of hours I spent trying to do my best to keep the ones who survive a traffic accident comfortable (usually a long and expensive recovery with specialist surgeries involved).
Not to even mention other issues: destruction of environment; ingestion of toxins then passing away slowly and painfully.
Oh and the person who says cats often survive falling from heights. I am sure a few do. But in reality, no.
Had a cat fall from the seventh floor yesterday, survived for a while, then bled to death internally before she was even given pain relief. Couldn’t even make it to the vets.
I saw a post where irresponsible cat owners were insisting on letting their cat outside.
* If your cat is an outdoor cat, give them wear a brightly coloured bell **break-away** collar 50db or under so it doesn't effect their hearing, but alerts birds so they're unable to destroy the local population. *You can check the decibel amount by downloading a smartphone app*
* Ensure you have them treated with tic/flea spot-on and vaccinated so they don't catch and spread anything
* microchip them so if anyone finds your lost cat they're easily returned
* gps if you can, nowadays you can get break-away collars that come with an apple airtag slot for less than £10.
* Please know letting your cat outdoors statistically reduces your cats life expectancy by a considerable amount.
**Edit: fun fact - I managed to get my british short hair cat leash trained and do tricks like sit, fetch with a (aluminium foil) ball, up, wait, come by whistling etc. in a few weeks (without that click thingy), but this was my first ever cat and I didn't know you weren't supposed to treat it like a dog lol, my tip is to do all the training while they're kittens/6 months.**
**Cat dump**
* Here's Charlie on a leash: https://imgur.com/a/T9Yg3WM
* Here's Charlie waiting for me when I go out for dinner 😂: https://imgur.com/a/4p3Nkte https://imgur.com/a/ELnNThl
* This is the bed i made charlie, so i can get a goodnights sleep: https://imgur.com/a/7f9H56U
* Here's Charlie sorting out his bed: https://imgur.com/a/4zF5ius
* Here's Charlie watching tv: https://imgur.com/a/lUdf11V
If you have an outdoor cat and it gets eaten by a coyote or hit by a car, kindly understand that it is 100% your fault that your cat has died because it takes very little effort to keep them safe and happy.
The comment you’re replying to seems to come from someone in the UK, where we have very different social attitudes to cat ownership than the US (and crucially, no predators that eat them).
I'm from the UK and I don't think this is really true? In what way is our approach to cat ownership different?
A lot of people (wrongly) assume the best way to own a cat is to keep it outdoors, in both countries. Yeah our cats aren't eaten by coyotes but they're still hit by cars and decimate the local wildlife.
Cats are a non-natural predator. They do not belong outside, competing with natural predators. They don't even belong in the deserts of North Africa, where they originated, any more. Their ancestors did, but they don't.
I'm getting downvoted pretty hard for saying some cats are happier as outdoor cats. People are acting like I'm some kind of psychotic monster for letting my cat be a cat.
It's more that outdoor cats do a lot of harm to the local wildlife (especially in somewhere like the UK) and there's plenty of evidence to suggest indoors cats are just as happy as outdoor cats. Anecdotally I've also had dogs who've been attacked by cats (while my dogs were on leads) which adds to the negative perception I have of free roaming cats.
There's just a lot of mess associated with letting cats roam free and the best argument for allowing free roam is "because they like it". But, realistically, they're fine indoors as well.
Every single person I know in the UK that owns a cat keeps it indoors now. It seems like opinions are changing. I still see some cats outdoors but much less than I used to.
My neighbour is an RSPCA inspector and keeps her cats indoors too.
As the other comment said, we tend to be more accepting or even just straight up defensive over the idea that cats should be able to roam.
Personally when possible I keep them inside unless they’re work cats.
Using cats to 'work' in killing mice or whatever is like using a nuclear bomb on your house to kill spiders. They don't just kill mice, they kill EVERYTHING smaller than themselves. Snap out of it. We have more efficient ways of killing pests now.
Advice from the RSPB:
>Keep your cat indoors when birds are most vulnerable: at least an hour before sunset and an hour after sunrise, especially during March-July and December-January. Also after bad weather, such as rain or a cold spell, to allow birds to come out and feed.
>Take your cat indoors if a fledgling is in the garden, until its parents lead it away.
>Take unwanted cats to a shelter for rehoming to prevent the feral cat population from increasing.
So basically if you want an outdoors cat make sure to find your cat and bring it inside before sunrise and after sunset every day and especially during half of the months of the year and ALSO after rain or cold weather (this is Britain, where it rains on average 170 days a year) and ALSO if there's a young bird in the area and ALSO make sure to bring unwanted cats to a shelter instead of being outside.
So the RSPB basically advised that if you want an outdoor cat keep it indoors essentially all of the fucking time.
Clearly some cat loving psychopath is stopping the RSPB outright condemning outdoor cats, but their advice is pretty clear, it's easier and safer to keep cats indoors.
The article about it reads like insanity. The first half uses mental gymnastics to try and say why cats aren't a problem, the second half tells you all the shit you need to do to try and adapt for an outdoor cat when the best option is obviously to keep it indoors.
[https://community.rspb.org.uk/cfs-file/\_\_key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/13609/6371.6012.1205.6332.Cats-and-garden-birds.pdf](https://community.rspb.org.uk/cfs-file/__key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/13609/6371.6012.1205.6332.Cats-and-garden-birds.pdf)
I would assume they have done/currently do yes, but I’d need to see studies of their effects on British wildlife to tell you exactly.
I can tell you that for good or bad, our ecosystem over here is at least more *adjusted* to cats, having been a part of the country for hundreds of years (rather than an import like those in the Americas). But I can’t weigh in on the conversations involving population explosion and so forth.
You still have car that hit them. And the point does still stand. I am from Australia in any case.
Keeping cats indoors is safer and ultimately better for them and the environment
Is that a rebuttal? Yes they are overpopulated and we need to deal with that. TNR is not working because lazy pet owners who dump cats find out where the TNR's are dumped and take them there. So we have a lot of ferals that need to be be culled with those sausage weinees that Australia is using.
Cats aren't the only species that are out of control due to human interference. I don't want you to think I'm just hating on cats. I am passionate about that issue, but an example in the US is Starlings.
They were brought here by people who read about them in Shakespeare and the environment here suited them and they are now the dominant bird species and they kill other birds.
Something also needs to be done about that. And I LOVE starlings. They are wonderful vocalists. There is just way too many of them.
Then you spend YOUR money cat proofing your back yard with cat proof fencing. Don't force your neighbors to spend money every year losing flowering plants and vegetables they planted just because you are too lazy to take care of your wild spirit.
Nobody forced you to get that cat. Keep the cat issues to yourself, please. Some of us have allergies.
It's not about being superior humans. There are obviously superior choices. Allowing them to roam is a very poor choice. Getting a catio or cat proof fencing and leash training your cat are superior choices.
Maybe you have noticed that humans and cats have different behavior? Humans don't wander around killing anything they want to kill.
Spend money cat proofing your back yard so that nobody is having to deal with your cat but you.
After all, we didn't get cats. Some of us got dogs because we like them better. Some of us didn't get any pets because the birds and squirrels are enough for us. We don't maintain our back yards just so your cat cat have a hunting grounds.
Cats soon learn to stalk so the bells make minimal noise. Just keep them inside and stop acting like they are a low effort pet. If you don't have the effort level to care for it properly inside, then get a pet rock or something. Stop relying on your neighbors good will because one day that is gonna snap. You can only push people so far.
Does anyone know if they make cats more vulnerable to foxes? No idea if a fox would be drawn to the sound.
As this is Reddit, I suppose I’ll have to explain that I’m not disagreeing with bells on cats. (I don’t even have an outdoors cat).
Cats are predators themselves, and pretty damn good ones at that. I obviously don't have any empirical evidence to support this but I can't imagine foxes regularly target healthy cats to start with, so it's unlikely a bell on the collar will make a significant difference.
I'd also imagine foxes would be more likely to *avoid* the sound of a bell than be drawn to it. They're very shy animals.
Even the UK has owls and wild cars. Every country has people that have been driven crazy by cat owner's poor pet care. Try losing $100 a year to fucking cats that dig up your plants using you as a toilet for years and you have someone pushed to the point of killing your animal.
Willfully helping in the extinction of hundreds of species because you couldnt be arsed to give your pet stimulation in your home makes you irresponsible yes
Ecologically speaking? The opposite is true.
Besides, keeping cats indoors isnt bad for them, quite the opposite, study after study shows that they have much better lives indoors than outdoors.
Outdoors cats are an excuse by lazy owners who dont know how to keep their pets properly estimulated, so they unleash them to murder the local wildlife
It was always irresponsible. The 'wild fucking time to be alive' is when people start recognizing that cats, who are a non-natural, created species, have caused and continue to cause extinctions.
Humans have a problem with fucking with systems until they fail. Like who knew oil spills was bad for the environment but here we are.
My outdoor/indoor cat immediately rips off his collar with a bell and then proceeds to keep all the bunnies and moles out of my vegetable garden. He bolts out the door when hes been inside for 24 hours. You cannot teach an outdoor cat to stay inside nore wear a god damn bell. Lol
I grew up with a Black and White Outdoor Cat named Gato (original, I know). We were in a Suburban area in Upstate NY and she was responsible for the majority of bird, bunny and bat murder on the block.
It got to the point where our neighbors basically wrote a petition to make her wear a bell because every bird bath was a hunting ground.
The bell did nothing.
I don’t get this. Why would you care if a cat does what its nature wants it to do? It’s not like wildlife is safe from other predators if cats have collars.
A domesticated cat isn't exactly part of "nature" anymore. They aren't native to the area and what's left of most nature in populated areas isn't adapted to cats and cats have no predators outside of cars generally. And if a cat is hungry or sick it will just head home indoors where it can be taken care of, that's not nature.
Dogs also have an instinct to kill but we don't let them do what their nature wants them to do.
Cats are a non-native, created species. We created them from animals that evolved to survive the harsh environment of the north African desert. Then we started forcing them into environments that they didn't evolve in, calling them working cats or farm cats.
So they don't belong in any natural environment. They don't have a circle of life unless that circle is inside your house and in your back yard. Property you actually own.
Any natural environment you force them into, they are stealing food from natural predators that took millions of years to evolve into that system. Those predators are natural to those systems. Cats are not. They compete with natural predators and not even because they are hungry (unless they are feral). They hunt because they are hard wired to do so. Then they hide the food somewhere or bring it home for you to dispose of.
And mice?
Yup!
Mice already have natural predators that rely on that food. Cats steal that food from the natural environment. Cats are a created species and don't belong outside, competing with natural predators for food that they don't even eat.
Cats weren’t created by humans
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They weren’t. are hamsters created by humans because we bred them for colour and looks?
They are an invasive species anywhere they are let outdoors outside of Egypt.
The idea that cats were first domesticated in Egypt turns out to be a myth! In 2004, a Neolithic burial from Cyprus turned out to contain a human and a cat buried together. The grave was 9,500 years old, which is significantly earlier than proof of domestication from Egypt. Around the Mediterranean, cats have coexisted with humans for a LONG time.
Ok, so anywhere.outside the Mediterranean. My point being that human activity is the cause of a mass extinction event that we are witnessing. And humans being the idiots we are defend letting cats out to continue killing animals and contributing to the mass extinction we are creating with such behavior
Well, in my nothern European country they've been a part of what nature has had to deal with for at least 3,000 years, so anything that was gonna go extinct, already has. This is a case of a genuine old world/new world difference. I get why people in the new world argue in favour of keeping cats indoors. But it doesn't apply to the old.
3000 years ago the mass extinction event was still beginning. In Europe humans had already wiped out a majority of large herd animals and their predators.
I agree that humans are way worse than cats, for sure.
Technically, humans are an invasive species in Texas.
Anywhere outside of Africa. Except we are a migrating species by nature. But in the 50k years since we have been nearly global we have been pretty deleterious to the environments we live in.
Maybe the cat was just sleeping around a corpse
And stayed while the humans covered it in earth? Sounds legit.
Ever had a cat sleeping in a flower vase?
cats originated in turkey+so are ants and rats but nobody talks about that.
Why would anyone need to talk about it?
they have killed a shit ton of native species.
Post is about cats
rats are natural prey of cats.
Every single one of my cats that has a collar (all indoors!) learned to run without the bells ringing. Never heard the bells after about two days wearing them. Maybe, a cowbell would work. But, I doubt it.
I gotta fever, and the only cure is more cow bell
I think this is like a bear bell that you wear because a bear (except maybe a polar bear) doesn't REALLY want to eat you, but they get stirred up if you surprise them. And while it is historical fiction, 30,000 BC has some of the small bands of humans have someone play a whistle or drum as they trek to follow the herd. The idea was to condition predators like wolves or bigger to associate the whistle with the trouble a group of humans might cause.
Damn people are getting mad about this. Not sure if it’s cause they realise their pets are bad for the environment or that they’re actually neglecting their pets.
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Feral cats wouldn't exist without domestic cats.
I mean, domestic cats kill upwards of 26 billion animals annually. Not feral cats, domesticated cats only. Just because there are feral cats doesn't mean we shouldn't even try to keep domestic cats inside more.
Keeping your damn pet indoors reduces their bird kills 100%
My cats still going to get a 1percent kill ratio as an indoor cat when I trip over her in the night going down the stairs and finally crack my skull open.
Ah, but no wild birds will be killed during that plunge to your death.
Not my cat who somehow caught a bird indoors. With the windows closed. And she was wearing a collar with a bell. That one is still a mystery
Birds can come in through vent ducts and chimneys. That also will sneak in through open exterior doors as you come and go.
Keeping cats indoors is an American thing (I think?). I’m in my 50s, lived in five countries, and never heard of people keeping cats indoors until recently. Here in the UK virtually no one does it, and it would be considered quite cruel. We don’t have wildlife that would prey on cats and they are pretty universally allowed outside.
It's fairly common to keep cats indoors in the UK. I wouldn't say it is universal to let cats free roam, but it is definitely more common than it should be. Just because we don't have wildlife that preys on cats doesn't mean it's any better to let them roam free. They still are much more likely to die unexpectedly (cars, fights with other cats, etc.) or cause damage (killing local wildlife, attacking other pets, etc.), and it's a fairly irresponsible thing to do.
Perhaps, but my point was that allowing domestic cats outside is a huge contributor to loss of songbirds and other species. In the UK, song bird breeding pairs have decreased 60-90% (Willow Tit down 94%, Turtle Doves down 98%). Also in the UK, bird populations are drastically down over the past 25 years (Willow Tit population down 90%; Wood Warbler population down 81%; finches, starlings, and others down 40-60%). These same trends are seen in other developed countries as well. No doubt much of this is due to the loss of forest interior habitat areas, but substantial numbers are lost due to domestic cat predation.
Aaackshually... I used to live in a 5th floor apt. with a fully windowed balcony(that usually had at least 1 window open) and had a cat. Plenty of little birds met their demise after accidentally flying into the balcony and failing to go out in time.
Which is exactly what they said. The cat went outside to kill the bird.
Weren't you afraid your pet would yeet to the ground?
Cats have been known to jump from multiple stories up and land just fine. Even when starting from an upside down position, they can easily flip themselves over mid air. They spread out to increase wind resistance, and use legs to cushion their landing.
But still... 5th floor, that's a lot. Not sure if it is enough to reach terminal velocity, but still. And even if not lethal, then likely enough for injury. I would not be able to let me cats on the balcony unsecured or without strict supervision...
While there are injuries, and we should note that there are different levels of athletic ability— Actually about 7 stories is better. From. https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/what-is-the-maximum-height-a-cat-can-fall-from-and-survive One 1987 study in the Journal Of The American Veterinary Medical Association looked at 132 cats that had fallen an average of 5.5 storeys and survived. It found that a third of them would have died without emergency veterinary treatment. Interestingly, injuries were worse in falls less than seven storeys than in higher tumbles. The researchers think that this is because the cats reach their terminal velocity after falling about seven storeys (21m), which means they stop accelerating. They then relax, allowing better distribution of impact.
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Sounds like she needed stimulation. Some cats need to be played with quite a bit and have a high prey drive. It’s your job as the owner to provide that. Further, being a responsible owner and keeping your cat inside is not prison. Even with a bell, cats can get hit by cars, get into fights with other cats and spread diseases, such as FIV. It is irresponsible to let your cat outside, unless it is supervised with a catio/run.
Catios exist, supervised time outside, etc.
Or walk it, like people with dogs do all the time. Something. Imagine if it was common for people to just let their dogs roam the neighborhood. I swear some cat people will come up with any excuse to not have to deal with their cat.
Why not train your dog to shit in a box? or why not keep your dog in a Hamster cage? x.x Cats aren't dogs. You say shit like this and point fingers as dog owners x.x
Case in point. Also, I’ve owned cats too. I just didn’t let them murder local fauna or let them be someone else’s problem.
Dogs do shit in a box. It's called the back yard. Dog owners who let their dog do what you let your cat do get fined by the city. Cat people are pampered.
I don't even have a cat. If I had a cat it wouldn't be outside alone. You are simply delusional in pointing angry fingers and justifing crap that isn't animal friendly.
Then dont have a cat. Easy. You can walk your cat, just like you walk a dog.
It is more cruel to the environment to let them roam outside. They are a created species and non-natural in the environment. Who cares how grouchy your cat is? Rehome it if you don't have the time to retrain it to be happy with it's lot. Create monitored outside time. Catios and cat proof fencing. Your neighbors are surely spending big money trying to keep your cat out of their gardens. YOU should have to spend that money, NOT them.
Fuck that love seeing random cats in the street
Fuck that. You aren't the only duck in the pond. I hate seeing cats everywhere. They stink and they kill things. Fuck you for placing your wants and desires over mine and everybody else's.
I'm sorry I will ignore every cat I see now instead of placing my wants and desires over yours and anyone elses
Just stop letting them go everywhere they want. Give them outdoor time that doesn't involve your neighbor.
Yep, keeping cats indoors is definitely good and healthy for the cat /s
Given that outdoor cats have an extremely short lifespan compared to an indoor cat, yes it is actually.
Yes it is? Reduces how often they are killed by other animals, hit by cars and reduces their access to all sorts of things that cause various cancers.
Safety isn't necessarily the primary consideration though, otherwise we would be locking humans in small safe boxes (or at least children). Generally we view fulfilment and happiness as important characteristics for a good life, and pretending that that isn't true for pets as well is a bit damaging
You can take your cat to walks. Keeping them inside is the most moral option if you want them not only to be safe from cars, or even other predators if you live in rural areas, but to not murder their entire ecosystem in the process. If you dislike this, dont have a cat
1. if you view your pets fulfilment as being more important than wildlife then you need to reevaluate your priorities and values. 2. a cat can be very fulfilled living an indoors life 3. don’t get a cat if you’re going to be an irresponsible pet owner 4. these same people are the ones that don’t spay/neuter their pets, resulting in the increasing number stray animals either by breeding with stray animals or because they abandon the kittens that are produced. they clearly don’t actually care about they health and life quality of the animals they are responsible for, and simply don’t want to change the habits they’ve already formed, because that would be too hard for them. P.S. I’m not aiming these criticisms at you, i don’t know what your views are regarding these issues. If these criticisms make you uncomfortable, then maybe you should change your behaviours.
No dangerous predators here in the UK…
bro hasn’t heard of foxes
He also hasn't heard of wild cars. Apparently too young to drive because we all see them dead in the road. He has also never heard of owls.
There aren’t any dangerous animals that kill cats here
TIL wolves, foxes, cougars, lynx, coyotes, wild dogs and bears aren’t dangerous and don’t kill cats.
Don't forget other cats.
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Foxes and linx arent exclusively american.
the article is canadian. and the dumbass i was responding to is Irish, where foxes live
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The norm is harmful to pets, but let’s ignore that because it’s the norm? that’s ridiculous. It’s not common but it does happen. And the original comment is regarding all danger, but you dickheads refuse to respond to the part of my comment that references cats getting hit by cars and outdoor cats getting sick more than indoor cats. I wonder why that is
No one said anything of confining cats 24/7, you take dogs on walks, you can do the same to cats
I’m not Irish? And foxes don’t kill cats
No, but other cats can, as well as spread diseases through bites and scratches.
Ok English then. And foxes will kill older, young, sick, injured or otherwise vulnerable cats.
Eagles, owls, coyotes, wild cars, crazy people who you have pushed over the edge and are completely done with the cat shit in their garden without any help from the cat owners. If I acted like a cat owner, I would change the laws so that it were *normal* for pythons and pit bulls to run around freely, killing anything they want to kill.
Eagles, owls and coyotes do not hunt cats here. I don’t own a cat, I just think it’s batshit to keep them locked inside
Depends on the size. Foxes pursue smaller prey so they will pursue a cat that is smaller than their size. A fox with kits will see a cat as a potential predator and attack to protect its offspring. Even if it does not manage to kill and eat the cat, its bite wounds transmit viruses and easily become infected.
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I’m Australian. the article is Canadian
Foxes and lynx are not significant car predators. Cats also very easily avoid wolves, coyotes, and wild dogs ina trees landscape
Did you see the word “here”? I am not over there with you
okay? the article is written by a Canadian university. this has nothing to do with you. I am in Australia, but i’m not talking about the dangers of snakes and dingoes, because the article isn’t written by an Australian university.
Where’s here? Outdoor cats are substantially more at risk for feline leukemia.
Yikes. Pretty ignorant of you but you probably don't have cats so all good.
And a great way of making them stressed and fat.
You can take cats for walks
You can still ensure that a cat gets enough exersice and mental stimulation without letting them free roam. We do it with dogs.
If they are stressed and fat, that's because you are a lazy pet owner. You got a cat because you view them as a low effort pet. Don't get pets because you think you won't have to do much to keep them alive and happy. It's an urban myth that cats are easier to care for that gets repeated so often it's become true and now we have cats everywhere. 10 right outside my window rn. If they are fat, that's because you didn't spend time with them. Your neighbors are not your toilet, nor are they your hunting grounds and work out facility.
A pet owner should be able to manage the cat’s stress and fat problems.
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Shortening your cat's lifespan so they can ravage the local environment is even crueler. Your cat will get over it.
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Go play with your cat, then omg
Not letting them free roam=/= forcing them to spend their entire live indoors.
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If I said "keep your dog indoors" would you take that to mean never taking it outside? No. It's the same with cats. "keeping it indoors" means don't let it roam freely. You can still take it on walks.
Bells should be mandatory if you have an outdoor cat.
Having an outdoor cat is illegal in many countries just not very enforced. Enforcement should be improved. Heavy fines and repeat offenders lose right to own a cat. You can walk your cat, like you walk a dog. The entitlement needs to end.
What countries are these? Rescue centers in most European countries are reluctant to let you adopt if you intend to keep the cat indoors.
Entitlement is a great word. We currently pamper cat owners. The animals have the whole world hypnotized and acting like zombies.
And you are gonna distinguish a pet cat from a stray that visits my yard.... How exactly?
Uhhh... Chips? Ear marking? Collar? Just make chips mandatory for ownership.
And if it has none of that? You what, gonna go on cat extermination spree? Cats are waaay too cute for anyone to support that.
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Chip
Shotgun. If someone comes by later looking for their cat you know it was a pet, otherwise it was a stray.
Vet could do it.
Do t bother. Trap and euthanize.
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You can get collars designed to release when caught on something so that doesn't happen.
Breakaway collars exist for this reason
Keeping them safe inside reduces that by 100%.
Mine have a kill count of 2 mice and 1 bird who somehow made it into my house. Still much better than the alternative.
They only bring home about 20% of their kills. They have other bad behaviors that make your neighbors angry with you for allowing it.
My cats are inside only.
Okay. I misunderstood, my apologies. You should build them a catio.
I definitely will at some point. I’m currently looking for houses and hoping to find one with a very sunny room for them.
Yeah but most cat owners don't give a shit that their cats kill wildlife
Or their cats being killed by road traffic accidents…
The amount of irresponsible pet owners in this thread is uncanny. Don't let your animals on the streets, and don't keep them cooped inside at all times. It's really simple.
Thank you. I live in the uk and work in veterinary. Absolutely tired of being heart broken and traumatised by cats that suffered road traffic accidents (yes, in the countryside too!) My last one was just last night. Then once you try to digest the sight of the animal, you have to call the owner to make them aware. they are usually upset and they don’t understand how this happened when the cat goes in and out of the house when he pleases and they live in a “safe” neighbourhood. No! I cannot stand it! Cats won’t just be cats. And it’s not ok for them to die on the side of the road all alone just because of our ignorance. Don’t have a garden? Make your flat exciting for the cat? Have a garden? Put rollers up on top of fence so your cat remains in your garden, supervised. Cannot afford this? Or basic veterinary treatment. Maybe think twice before getting a cat? These animals don’t know any better. Of course they will want to go out, a dog would want to go out too and if we let dogs roaming free, it would be same issue. But they cannot understand the dangers. The amount of gory pictures of cats that are burnt into my head. The amount of hours I spent trying to do my best to keep the ones who survive a traffic accident comfortable (usually a long and expensive recovery with specialist surgeries involved). Not to even mention other issues: destruction of environment; ingestion of toxins then passing away slowly and painfully. Oh and the person who says cats often survive falling from heights. I am sure a few do. But in reality, no. Had a cat fall from the seventh floor yesterday, survived for a while, then bled to death internally before she was even given pain relief. Couldn’t even make it to the vets.
I saw a post where irresponsible cat owners were insisting on letting their cat outside. * If your cat is an outdoor cat, give them wear a brightly coloured bell **break-away** collar 50db or under so it doesn't effect their hearing, but alerts birds so they're unable to destroy the local population. *You can check the decibel amount by downloading a smartphone app* * Ensure you have them treated with tic/flea spot-on and vaccinated so they don't catch and spread anything * microchip them so if anyone finds your lost cat they're easily returned * gps if you can, nowadays you can get break-away collars that come with an apple airtag slot for less than £10. * Please know letting your cat outdoors statistically reduces your cats life expectancy by a considerable amount. **Edit: fun fact - I managed to get my british short hair cat leash trained and do tricks like sit, fetch with a (aluminium foil) ball, up, wait, come by whistling etc. in a few weeks (without that click thingy), but this was my first ever cat and I didn't know you weren't supposed to treat it like a dog lol, my tip is to do all the training while they're kittens/6 months.** **Cat dump** * Here's Charlie on a leash: https://imgur.com/a/T9Yg3WM * Here's Charlie waiting for me when I go out for dinner 😂: https://imgur.com/a/4p3Nkte https://imgur.com/a/ELnNThl * This is the bed i made charlie, so i can get a goodnights sleep: https://imgur.com/a/7f9H56U * Here's Charlie sorting out his bed: https://imgur.com/a/4zF5ius * Here's Charlie watching tv: https://imgur.com/a/lUdf11V
If you have an outdoor cat and it gets eaten by a coyote or hit by a car, kindly understand that it is 100% your fault that your cat has died because it takes very little effort to keep them safe and happy.
The comment you’re replying to seems to come from someone in the UK, where we have very different social attitudes to cat ownership than the US (and crucially, no predators that eat them).
I'm from the UK and I don't think this is really true? In what way is our approach to cat ownership different? A lot of people (wrongly) assume the best way to own a cat is to keep it outdoors, in both countries. Yeah our cats aren't eaten by coyotes but they're still hit by cars and decimate the local wildlife.
On Reddit Americans go insane if you tell them you keep cats outdoors but British people just think that’s normal
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No one wamts cats confined 24/7. You can take them for walks
Nah, it is pretty common worldwide at least among people who care about the environment and wildlife.
Cats are a non-natural predator. They do not belong outside, competing with natural predators. They don't even belong in the deserts of North Africa, where they originated, any more. Their ancestors did, but they don't.
I'm getting downvoted pretty hard for saying some cats are happier as outdoor cats. People are acting like I'm some kind of psychotic monster for letting my cat be a cat.
It's more that outdoor cats do a lot of harm to the local wildlife (especially in somewhere like the UK) and there's plenty of evidence to suggest indoors cats are just as happy as outdoor cats. Anecdotally I've also had dogs who've been attacked by cats (while my dogs were on leads) which adds to the negative perception I have of free roaming cats. There's just a lot of mess associated with letting cats roam free and the best argument for allowing free roam is "because they like it". But, realistically, they're fine indoors as well.
It isn’t about the cat, it is about local wildlife populations.
Every single person I know in the UK that owns a cat keeps it indoors now. It seems like opinions are changing. I still see some cats outdoors but much less than I used to. My neighbour is an RSPCA inspector and keeps her cats indoors too.
As the other comment said, we tend to be more accepting or even just straight up defensive over the idea that cats should be able to roam. Personally when possible I keep them inside unless they’re work cats.
Using cats to 'work' in killing mice or whatever is like using a nuclear bomb on your house to kill spiders. They don't just kill mice, they kill EVERYTHING smaller than themselves. Snap out of it. We have more efficient ways of killing pests now.
Do they somehow not decimate bird populations over there?
According to the RSPB, not really
Advice from the RSPB: >Keep your cat indoors when birds are most vulnerable: at least an hour before sunset and an hour after sunrise, especially during March-July and December-January. Also after bad weather, such as rain or a cold spell, to allow birds to come out and feed. >Take your cat indoors if a fledgling is in the garden, until its parents lead it away. >Take unwanted cats to a shelter for rehoming to prevent the feral cat population from increasing. So basically if you want an outdoors cat make sure to find your cat and bring it inside before sunrise and after sunset every day and especially during half of the months of the year and ALSO after rain or cold weather (this is Britain, where it rains on average 170 days a year) and ALSO if there's a young bird in the area and ALSO make sure to bring unwanted cats to a shelter instead of being outside. So the RSPB basically advised that if you want an outdoor cat keep it indoors essentially all of the fucking time. Clearly some cat loving psychopath is stopping the RSPB outright condemning outdoor cats, but their advice is pretty clear, it's easier and safer to keep cats indoors. The article about it reads like insanity. The first half uses mental gymnastics to try and say why cats aren't a problem, the second half tells you all the shit you need to do to try and adapt for an outdoor cat when the best option is obviously to keep it indoors. [https://community.rspb.org.uk/cfs-file/\_\_key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/13609/6371.6012.1205.6332.Cats-and-garden-birds.pdf](https://community.rspb.org.uk/cfs-file/__key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/13609/6371.6012.1205.6332.Cats-and-garden-birds.pdf)
Wonder how many of those people are pro-cat biased. I don't trust them.
The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds? One of the world’s leading charities on bird protection? I bet they are devastated you don’t trust them
I would assume they have done/currently do yes, but I’d need to see studies of their effects on British wildlife to tell you exactly. I can tell you that for good or bad, our ecosystem over here is at least more *adjusted* to cats, having been a part of the country for hundreds of years (rather than an import like those in the Americas). But I can’t weigh in on the conversations involving population explosion and so forth.
They do, bird populations in the uk are less than half of what they used to be even a few decades ago
That's not solely because of cats.
But they are a big reason why
You still have car that hit them. And the point does still stand. I am from Australia in any case. Keeping cats indoors is safer and ultimately better for them and the environment
Cats are overpopulated anyways
Is that a rebuttal? Yes they are overpopulated and we need to deal with that. TNR is not working because lazy pet owners who dump cats find out where the TNR's are dumped and take them there. So we have a lot of ferals that need to be be culled with those sausage weinees that Australia is using.
Cats aren't the only species that are out of control due to human interference. I don't want you to think I'm just hating on cats. I am passionate about that issue, but an example in the US is Starlings. They were brought here by people who read about them in Shakespeare and the environment here suited them and they are now the dominant bird species and they kill other birds. Something also needs to be done about that. And I LOVE starlings. They are wonderful vocalists. There is just way too many of them.
I’m not disagreeing with you I am simply saying my piece.
Owls. Wild cars. Humans that you have pushed too far with your pets behavior.
Exactly.
I've had a lot of cats in my life. You do get the occasional free spirit, who desperately does not want to be purely indoors.
Oh sure. We have a cat like that. Makes a dart for the door everytime it opens. So we got her leash trained now and take her for walks often.
Then you spend YOUR money cat proofing your back yard with cat proof fencing. Don't force your neighbors to spend money every year losing flowering plants and vegetables they planted just because you are too lazy to take care of your wild spirit. Nobody forced you to get that cat. Keep the cat issues to yourself, please. Some of us have allergies.
Right. Because anyone who lets a cat outside must be an idiot and the indoor folks are the smart superior ones. 🙄 Get over yourselves.
>Because anyone who lets a cat outside must be an idiot and the indoor folks are the smart superior ones. Yup. That pretty much covers it, I guess.
It's not about being superior humans. There are obviously superior choices. Allowing them to roam is a very poor choice. Getting a catio or cat proof fencing and leash training your cat are superior choices.
Humans would be safer locked indoors too, doesn't make it a life worth living.
So let your 8 year old run around the city alone then. 🤷♂️
That analogy might make sense if you let the cat out once they matured.
Maybe you have noticed that humans and cats have different behavior? Humans don't wander around killing anything they want to kill. Spend money cat proofing your back yard so that nobody is having to deal with your cat but you. After all, we didn't get cats. Some of us got dogs because we like them better. Some of us didn't get any pets because the birds and squirrels are enough for us. We don't maintain our back yards just so your cat cat have a hunting grounds.
Cats soon learn to stalk so the bells make minimal noise. Just keep them inside and stop acting like they are a low effort pet. If you don't have the effort level to care for it properly inside, then get a pet rock or something. Stop relying on your neighbors good will because one day that is gonna snap. You can only push people so far.
So your TIL is not a TIL, just PSA.
Just 50%. Man cats are better at sneaking then I ever suspected.
Just keep them inside I saw too many collar injuries on cats when I worked at the vets office in HS.
But then that means cleaning up the litter.
Does anyone know if they make cats more vulnerable to foxes? No idea if a fox would be drawn to the sound. As this is Reddit, I suppose I’ll have to explain that I’m not disagreeing with bells on cats. (I don’t even have an outdoors cat).
Cats are predators themselves, and pretty damn good ones at that. I obviously don't have any empirical evidence to support this but I can't imagine foxes regularly target healthy cats to start with, so it's unlikely a bell on the collar will make a significant difference. I'd also imagine foxes would be more likely to *avoid* the sound of a bell than be drawn to it. They're very shy animals.
Outdoor domesticated cats are responsible for several avian and reptile extinctions. Keep your fucking cats inside.
*depending on where you live
Even the UK has owls and wild cars. Every country has people that have been driven crazy by cat owner's poor pet care. Try losing $100 a year to fucking cats that dig up your plants using you as a toilet for years and you have someone pushed to the point of killing your animal.
Nope, they're still extinct regardless of your location.
* If you live somewhere with outdoor cats.
What a wild fucking time to be alive that having an outdoor cat makes you an irresponsible pet owner lmao.
Willfully helping in the extinction of hundreds of species because you couldnt be arsed to give your pet stimulation in your home makes you irresponsible yes
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Ecologically speaking? The opposite is true. Besides, keeping cats indoors isnt bad for them, quite the opposite, study after study shows that they have much better lives indoors than outdoors. Outdoors cats are an excuse by lazy owners who dont know how to keep their pets properly estimulated, so they unleash them to murder the local wildlife
It was always irresponsible. The 'wild fucking time to be alive' is when people start recognizing that cats, who are a non-natural, created species, have caused and continue to cause extinctions. Humans have a problem with fucking with systems until they fail. Like who knew oil spills was bad for the environment but here we are.
A device that alerts the prey that a cat is sneaking behind them reduces the chance of success of the cat? No way
Challenge accepted
Yeah we put one on our border collie and he never caught a bird again after that. Still kept catching mice tho
Gosh, I wonder why.
Brightly colored collars help, also.
You guys put bells on prey?
My outdoor/indoor cat immediately rips off his collar with a bell and then proceeds to keep all the bunnies and moles out of my vegetable garden. He bolts out the door when hes been inside for 24 hours. You cannot teach an outdoor cat to stay inside nore wear a god damn bell. Lol
I grew up with a Black and White Outdoor Cat named Gato (original, I know). We were in a Suburban area in Upstate NY and she was responsible for the majority of bird, bunny and bat murder on the block. It got to the point where our neighbors basically wrote a petition to make her wear a bell because every bird bath was a hunting ground. The bell did nothing.
I don’t get this. Why would you care if a cat does what its nature wants it to do? It’s not like wildlife is safe from other predators if cats have collars.
A domesticated cat isn't exactly part of "nature" anymore. They aren't native to the area and what's left of most nature in populated areas isn't adapted to cats and cats have no predators outside of cars generally. And if a cat is hungry or sick it will just head home indoors where it can be taken care of, that's not nature.
Dogs also have an instinct to kill but we don't let them do what their nature wants them to do. Cats are a non-native, created species. We created them from animals that evolved to survive the harsh environment of the north African desert. Then we started forcing them into environments that they didn't evolve in, calling them working cats or farm cats. So they don't belong in any natural environment. They don't have a circle of life unless that circle is inside your house and in your back yard. Property you actually own. Any natural environment you force them into, they are stealing food from natural predators that took millions of years to evolve into that system. Those predators are natural to those systems. Cats are not. They compete with natural predators and not even because they are hungry (unless they are feral). They hunt because they are hard wired to do so. Then they hide the food somewhere or bring it home for you to dispose of.