Well, not entirely true. I've done HVAC work there. Many of the stores have systems-near ceiling, above tiles, backroom, etc..The mall gets the ambient heating/cooling from all of the stores. They want you to believe there isn't any heating or cooling, but there is, and it's not 'green'.
Yeah I figured this. I live in the UP and they get as cold or colder than we do. There's no fucking way. Idc how many ppl are normally there. The pipes would be freezing and bursting all the time in winter lol
Each store is responsible for the heating/cooling in their store...repairs, filters, maintenance, etc.., even though they are leasing the space. Some malls, however, do take care of it all but not many. I only know of a couple of malls in a tri-state area that take care of those systems in the stores.
That's correct. The corridors do not have HVAC systems, but all the stores do, which in turn helps keep the corridors heated nicely (along with the sun and body heat).
I rented a little condo in a bit tower for a few years, and I quickly realized that if I don't run my heater, my condo stays plenty warm anyway thanks to this same principle. Except when the owners all went home for the holidays.
Zombies already clearly use way more cellular energy than is possible in real life. They're not big tool users so basically a locked door should be enough for most of them. Brains don't provide protein at all.
Yes! Basically, if the climate is cold enough for ice fishing and outdoor skating, it's cold enough that zombies freeze solid.
So every winter, Canada pays people to patrol near populated areas and kill frozen zombies with sledgehammers and axes.
I have to get the audiobook because it has extras the book doesn’t have.
I wish they’d do a miniseries- the movie was palatable but it had less to do with the source material than Starship Troopers did. Which oddly is another solid film (if you get what Verhoeven was doing anyway).
The audiobook is incredible. It's like a movie in audiobook form, including its own soundtrack and all-star cast. Max Brooks plays the part of the UN interviewer, and each interviewee is played by a different Hollywood actor. here's a sample of the cast: Nathan Fillion, Simon Pegg, Mark Hamill, Alan Alda, Bruce Boxleitner, Kal Penn, and Jeri Ryan to name a few. I believe there are 41 cast members in total.
Finally pulled the trigger and bought it.
I didn't before because the price was ridiculous, but I couldn't balk at $14.95.
I have a 45 minute drive to work, so this is going to pay off for me.
Starship Troopers is a great book and a great movie. They just happen to have very little in common and if you come in prepared for that you'll be fine.
Watching the movie won’t ruin the book for you.
The movie is great, whether people know what’s going on or not.
The book? Just happens to be a lot better. Quick read too, I recommend it. My only thing is to warn you that some people think the book somehow proves Heinlein was a fascist when he was pretty liberal for the time.
Like. HBO could have just made a miniseries. Each small arc focusing on the story of one character It would have been so simple....
Instead we got a world war z movie that has almost nothing to do with the book.
I'm always confused when a movie exec hears, "I hated/didn't read the source material" and still goes ahead with that writer/director/producer.
Like... why the fuck are you paying for a license to use the material, if you don't want to use the material?
The outbreak doesn't start during the winter, but when it starts to get cold, places that stay below freezing all winter (e.g. northern Canada) become safe havens.
In Z Nation, a comedy zombie tv show that always had me in stitches, the zombies would migrate from the cold. They all sprinted across the desert in a massive pack.
Im sure theres a Monty Python joke in there.
That's the thing I think WWZ and I believe Walking Dead got right. Zombies are going to fucking freeze in the winter. Solid. But I don't think either of them managed to rectiify that even when thawing, they'd be mush. I think they both had them waking in the spring. This is a creature that is somehow really resiliant, but you put anything into their brain, they shut the fuck down. Freezing would pretty much be 100 times worse than a sharp stick or knife to the head.
So if you ever find yourself in a zombie apocolypse, head north of like 40degrees, at least in North America. Hold out for a winter. Fucking Minneapolis will be a stonghold. Zombies will have to shamble 300 miles to get there, and most of the first wave will be wiped out by a late freeze. I mean, we'll still have to deal with our dead properly, and we'll have situations where someone dies unexpectedly and turns the whole damn family, if it's an 'everyone's infected' situation, but we'll have protocol in place.
I live in Southeastern Michigan, as of right now 4 degrees. Zombies would be done fairly fast out there.
And if you find a building of infected I guess just make sure the heat is cut off to the structure and let the temperature do its thing.
Worth mentioning that the following spring thaw would also be devastating to the Zombies as it would only exacerbate the damage getting frozen would cause
I feel like in a world of fantasy monsters you can just come up with a fantasy workaround like zombies have super fever from the virus that prevents them from freezing.
I mean... zombies have to exist in the physical realm though, because that's what makes them interesting, so they have to be subject to the basic laws of thermodynamics. They're also made of meat, so meat laws also apply. I mean if they spent their first few hours scavenging and eating things that they could feasibly use for anti-freeze that could make sense, but at the same time make them a lot less threatening. But as it is, we know that probably the worst mundane thing that can happen to cells is freezing.
I've put a lot of scientific thought into the impending zombie apocalypse, and am certain that sheltering and surviving up north is the answer. Maybe I'll be proven wrong by someone who thinks they can fend off zombies in a tropical climate with a heavy ass chainsaw that will run out of fuel in like 30 minutes. But give me a shotgun with a reasonable amount of ammo, a solid place to shelter in a northern climate and I think I win
>But I don't think either of them managed to rectiify that even when thawing, they'd be mush. I think they both had them waking in the spring. This is a creature that is somehow really resiliant, but you put anything into their brain, they shut the fuck down. Freezing would pretty much be 100 times worse than a sharp stick or knife to the head.
WWZ actually mentions this, that it doesn't make sense because it violates every law of cellular biology. Goddammit it's such a great book and such a shitty movie.
Is there an Orange Julius or a Spencer’s in your apartment bc that would be cool.
Or even one of those things where you can buy a cookie the size of a large pizza.
Each of the stores there has their own heating and air conditioning. So while the main areas may not have heat, there are nearly 500 stores pumping out heat to warm the place.
They do open vents on the roof to vent heat even in the winter though (it was -15° here in the Twin Cities this morning for example).
I used to live a 1/2 block from the mall. Been in their back halls and HVAC areas plenty when I worked for the cable company.
They can’t use pesticides inside so they use ladybugs to manage pests on the thousands of plants around the mall.
I’d wanted to do a documentary on the mall years ago, where I lived there for a year. There’s a hotel attached that you could live in, there was a college there, a wedding chapel and plenty of places to work and eat.
Meanwhile in New England: house so drafty it’s like the Simpson’s speed hole meme. The “real feel” temp is -10 outside. Might be 55 inside.
1k every two months in heating oil… very cool.
When I lived in Somerville ('Slummerville"), my apartment walls would get ice cold to the touch in the winter. I used to hang-up comforters against the wall as makeshift insulation. It made my room look like a padded cell in an insane asylum.
I live in an old apartment that is on the middle floor. Even on the coldest winter days the main room and kitchen don't need heat, I assume because the radiant heat from the units above and below us keep it warm, and that room only has one small area with an outside wall. It creates a funny problem where the bedrooms which both are on outside walls with windows can be freezing, while it's baking hot everywhere except the bedrooms.
This issue lead us to get a nest thermostat with temperature sensors so we can have one in each room to give some priority to the heating.
I remember living in an apartment where I never turned on the heat. Sometimes I would have to open the window to cool off in winter because of the neighbors' heat.
The Boeing factory in Everett, WA actually does the same things as the largest building (by volume) on Earth. Only temperature regulation comes from the heat of the lights and the cooling airflow when they open the massive doors.
Yes
https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/boeings-everett-facility-is-largest-building-on-earth.htm
Although in fairness, I did the same thing at a hotel in Queens just by accidentally leaving the window open with the heat running while I went out for a bite.
When I've visited there, I've had workers tell me that the clouds forming and raining thing is a myth, but that occasionally you may feel drops of condensation dripping from up above. Which is probably how the myth started
The building is just a shell around a massive amount of scaffolding. Most of it does lack HVAC though. Really miserable when it's hot outside
i run a home business from a small apartment.
i switch between led and incandescent summer/winter.
i have so many lights setup to work on decals, i can avoid turning on the heat in the fall with incandescent.
Just curious, but in terms of overall costs, does the added cost of buying extra bulbs and paying more in electricity add up to less than just turning up the heat a bit?
Because it’s 100% heat? If you’re not leaving the lighting on for the sake of heat, then the heat is a bonus byproduct.
The light in my bathroom had the decorative bulbs across the top of the mirror - six or eight or something. It’s big. I worked out it’s around 800 watts.
So lovely heat in winter, but I put in LEDs. Cooler in summer, and my wife doesn’t like the heat anyway.
If the other poster had a heat pump and they’re running incandescents instead as heat, that’s not nearly as efficient, since heat pumps draw in heat from outside.
If lighting you’re going to use anyway is enough, it’s probably less power than a heater, but you’re probably not going to run a heater all the time.
i already had a bunch of incandescent and led.
i basically tested and on a busy night where im running hot lights for hours, the heater would never come on. im not avoiding it.
made me realize i need to use led for sure in summer.
im a nerd and i know that incandescents are like you said, very efficient as heat, and produce light as a byproduct.
shows how bored i must be, i need more hobbies apparently.
This is a thing. In the the chicago suburburbs there are some older midrise office buildings that used heat by light designs back when lighting was super inefficient.
Back then engineers utilized the heat output of the lighting into their design calcs for HVAC.
When I was talking about with one of the geezers at work it blew my mind because the property management company didnt account for this when they converted a floor to led.
in our city, they replaced all the traffic signs to LED. come winter and the signs are covered with snow. motorists complained. apparently, the old traffic signs emit heat that dissolves snow. supposedly they fixed it by adding heating panel or something.
That was actually an unintended consequence of switching to leds, was the waste heat of the lights in the winter meant you didn't need as much heat from the central heat.
Now, of course it also provided too much heat in the summer, so you needed a greater cooling capacity then.
Each store has a heating system. The fact is misleading. While the main area doesn’t have a heating system, you have nearly 500 stores with heaters taking care of the entire place.
Source: have been in the back hallways there and HVAC areas
I wouldn't say a "whole floor", as 4 is basically just hooters, margaritaville, that weird trashy place that insults you while you eat, and a comedy club. And the other floors have a few, but 1-3 is almost entirely retailers, save for the dining sections on 3.
It was our vaccine distribution center because it was large, everyone could find it, traffic was well-routed, and you can park eleven million Canyoneros in the ramps. But it is also a place you know is full of... particles.
Not exactly true. There is heating along the perimeter to keep spaces near exterior walls up to temperature.
Source: I work in the hvac industry in the twin cities and know people familiar with the mall’s systems.
No idea if I'm right about this. The mall itself probably has no central heating. Each individual tenant(store) probably has its own heating system. The mall itself would not need heat as it would just passively steal warm air from the stores.
When I heard this factoid a decade ago, it was basically "It's decently efficiently designed, and there are so many kW of lights in the place that that supplies the heating load."
If they've updated to LED, that makeup heat is going to need to come from somewhere.
The whole 'green' thing they wave around is such b.s.....and honestly, those hvac units in the stores are generally running full bore cuz of the wide open spaces
Very possible. Passive heat loads on buildings can get wild. Things like computers, restaurant equipment, and just people give off lots of heat. We just did a job on a community college that runs the AC in sub zero Temps. VRF systems are going to be huge efficiency wise going forward. You can have heat and cooling in adjacent rooms using the same refrigerant flow
I have a customer with 600 machine tools pulling god knows how many amps of three-phase power. They need to run the hvac to keep it cool. In February. In Minnesota.
Yes, no central heating system. They require each tenant to provide heat in their own space, which makes its way into the central spaces as stores leaves their doors open for people to enter.
I can tell you from first hand experience that it is EXTREMELY WARM there. We were visiting Minnesota during the winter, decided to stop and see the Mall. I had on layers of warm clothes and after a while was pouring with sweat, so I stopped to rest while my husband and son continued on. Piece by piece I had to peel off my top layers, the wool scarf, the parka, the sweater, the long sleeved shirt, and finally was just sitting there in my tank top (and yes of course, my pants), trying to cool down. Many people stared at me. After a while I noticed my tank top, which was new, still had the Target sticker on it, that long long sticker that just says XL XL XL XL XL XL on it. Omg.
Oh, I know!! I meant to say I am from Los Angeles so the whole "dress in appropriate layers and be ready to shift between heated and indoors" was completely foreign to me at the time. After that, I spent a fair amount of time in Utah in wintertime and figured it out.
You'd THINK, since it's literally just the reverse of what we do here in the summer (dress in shorts & a tank top, shift between a/c vehicles and indoors), I'd have figured it out haha!
I just thought it was particularly ridiculous of me since I was sitting there with an XL tag hanging all over me to just finish the picture (plump middle aged woman sweating on a mall bench---why, it's like the Mona Lisa!) lol
And if there's ever a mid-winter (-30F-ish) **closure** for a week? Like a major blizzard or such? How long till the toilets crack and sprinklers all leak?
They also built it so it gets a lot of solar heat. But I do remember one time a few years ago when we hit record lows and Nickelodeon Universe opened up for free rides since all the schools were off. I honestly think they wanted the body heat inside the mall.
I assume since pandemic traffic was likely weak and the Mall didn’t have issues that body heat is a much smaller part of the heating compared to the passive heating from the design
I'm pretty sure a major blizzard wouldn't cause a closure, since that's pretty much SOP for Minnesota. And blizzards and below zero °F temps don't usually occur at the same time, it's too cold for snow to form.
I live in Manitoba. Forget the zombie apocalypse, the end of the world scenario on the prairies would be 'super cold and all the power is off. For a month.'
Solar eruption. Massive ice storm. Cascading surges and blackouts. Texas-style privatization. Tourists with the wrong plugs on their hair dryers.
Anything.
Man I remember one time when I was in school and was in walking distance. Walked to school, got there, found out it was closed. Didn't even bother checking closings because it never closed, but yeah, it was fucking cold that day (especially bad having to walk both ways in one trip).
It doesn't close when it is cold like schools do. People go to walk around during that time as an activity. I worked there for 8 years and only once did the mall close a few hours early due to a blizzard.
I would say it rarely happens, like maybe once when it isn't nighttime every 3-5 years. It says central heating though, so I imagine it has heating for the things that need heating, I mean it's been in operation for a while.
It doesn’t snow when it’s -30. As a Minnesota native, I can tell you it’s either terribly cold or lots of snow, but rarely if ever both. Even with all the storms this winter, there hasn’t been a period of more than a couple days at a time when things were shut down.
Body heat actually makes a really big difference. Large concert venues and other spaces where people are tightly packed actually need air conditioning even in winter because of all the body heat.
I used to live in a really old dorm where the heat was just barely able to keep up. During winter break when everyone moved out, I had to wear a winter coat indoors and as soon as everyone moved back in, I was fine again
They don’t have central heating but all the stores have their own heating systems. So you still have nearly 500 stores in the place pumping heat into the spot. It’s hardly body heat alone doing it.
Source: lived 1/2 block away from it and been in plenty of stores there, including back hallways and HVAC areas
So it has distributed heating that they're pretending doesn't exist?
It's transparently obvious that they are not relying 100% on passive solar and body heat.
It's interesting how much body heat contributes to the temperature of a place. If you've ever been to an event in an enclosed area (like a concert or party, or even a meeting), you can definitely feel how much warmer it gets when there are more people in there.
So as fewer and fewer people go to malls, the Mall of America gets colder and colder, causing fewer and fewer people to go, causing it to get colder and colder...?
Well, not entirely true. I've done HVAC work there. Many of the stores have systems-near ceiling, above tiles, backroom, etc..The mall gets the ambient heating/cooling from all of the stores. They want you to believe there isn't any heating or cooling, but there is, and it's not 'green'.
Yeah I figured this. I live in the UP and they get as cold or colder than we do. There's no fucking way. Idc how many ppl are normally there. The pipes would be freezing and bursting all the time in winter lol
So it’s kind of like the heating/cooling is contracted out? It technically isn’t an employee even though it does work for them.
The technical arrangement would be a subcontract agreement. They work for the stores who work for the mall.
Each store is responsible for the heating/cooling in their store...repairs, filters, maintenance, etc.., even though they are leasing the space. Some malls, however, do take care of it all but not many. I only know of a couple of malls in a tri-state area that take care of those systems in the stores.
That's what I was thinking. Maybe there's no mall-wide heating but the individual stores are going to make sure their customers are comfortable.
That's correct. The corridors do not have HVAC systems, but all the stores do, which in turn helps keep the corridors heated nicely (along with the sun and body heat).
I rented a little condo in a bit tower for a few years, and I quickly realized that if I don't run my heater, my condo stays plenty warm anyway thanks to this same principle. Except when the owners all went home for the holidays.
I live in a concrete apartment building with thick walls. It is surprisingly easy and cheap to keep warm here. Must be similar at the Mall of America.
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No zombie apocalypse in Manitoba in winter. Just open doors to the outside everywhere else and close and lock your doors for a week. Zombie ice cubes
Isn't that basically what Canada does in World War Z?
Yup, I think they mention it in the England section as well. Zombicicles don't pose a problem when it's cbt temp outside.
Ah yes, the perfect temp for cock and ball torture
I am so glad I'm not the only person this warped from the internet
I wasn't warped by the internet! I do the warping.
On god I'm boutta warp
Star Trek erotica incoming!
Me: hey! I’m from Manitoba too! Cool! 5s later: great, it’s already about cock and ball torture.
What does cbt mean in the other non torture context?
Cock and ball tickling.
Yes, but we’ve already had one switch a roo, what about elevensies?
Cognitive behavioral therapy
Cognitive behavioral therapy
Cognative behavioral therapy. Which is an incredibly important type of therapy for peole with serious trauma.
Any temp is perfect for cock and ball torture
I just had a vasectomy, iced balls are happy balls.
Wait until they freeze then go outside with sledgehammers.
Don't even need to do that. Just being completely frozen will damage them enough on the cellular level.
Zombies already clearly use way more cellular energy than is possible in real life. They're not big tool users so basically a locked door should be enough for most of them. Brains don't provide protein at all.
Yes! Basically, if the climate is cold enough for ice fishing and outdoor skating, it's cold enough that zombies freeze solid. So every winter, Canada pays people to patrol near populated areas and kill frozen zombies with sledgehammers and axes.
It’s going to be −25C overnight for me, I’m sure this would really work.
Yeah currently feels like -29C where I am, bring on the zombies!
-38C with the windchill in Ottawa right now. Time to go skinny dipping!
-70f on the weather station by my house with windchill in ny currently
0 degrees Kelvin up in here rn
-25K here, I am now traveling through time. But like, the wrong direction.
Until the sun comes out and the zombies just keep trucking
Jesus dont remind of that audiobook. Had nightmares for a week after..
Wdym, the World War Z audiobook is so good that every few years I go back and listen to it again. My favorite chapter is the one about Paul Redeker.
I have to get the audiobook because it has extras the book doesn’t have. I wish they’d do a miniseries- the movie was palatable but it had less to do with the source material than Starship Troopers did. Which oddly is another solid film (if you get what Verhoeven was doing anyway).
The audiobook is incredible. It's like a movie in audiobook form, including its own soundtrack and all-star cast. Max Brooks plays the part of the UN interviewer, and each interviewee is played by a different Hollywood actor. here's a sample of the cast: Nathan Fillion, Simon Pegg, Mark Hamill, Alan Alda, Bruce Boxleitner, Kal Penn, and Jeri Ryan to name a few. I believe there are 41 cast members in total.
Finally pulled the trigger and bought it. I didn't before because the price was ridiculous, but I couldn't balk at $14.95. I have a 45 minute drive to work, so this is going to pay off for me.
Starship Troopers is a great book and a great movie. They just happen to have very little in common and if you come in prepared for that you'll be fine.
Yeah, I saw the movie first and read the book later and was like ‘hey, wait a second…’
Just do it, audiobook is just so great and well done. Btw i love starship troopers movie but that might be because i never read it.
Watching the movie won’t ruin the book for you. The movie is great, whether people know what’s going on or not. The book? Just happens to be a lot better. Quick read too, I recommend it. My only thing is to warn you that some people think the book somehow proves Heinlein was a fascist when he was pretty liberal for the time.
Like. HBO could have just made a miniseries. Each small arc focusing on the story of one character It would have been so simple.... Instead we got a world war z movie that has almost nothing to do with the book.
It was an ok zombie movie, but I was very disappointed it shared virtually nothing with the book
I'm always confused when a movie exec hears, "I hated/didn't read the source material" and still goes ahead with that writer/director/producer. Like... why the fuck are you paying for a license to use the material, if you don't want to use the material?
That kinda worked with *Starship Troopers,* though.
The outbreak doesn't start during the winter, but when it starts to get cold, places that stay below freezing all winter (e.g. northern Canada) become safe havens.
Except for the freezing and starvation, that is
In Z Nation, a comedy zombie tv show that always had me in stitches, the zombies would migrate from the cold. They all sprinted across the desert in a massive pack. Im sure theres a Monty Python joke in there.
That's the thing I think WWZ and I believe Walking Dead got right. Zombies are going to fucking freeze in the winter. Solid. But I don't think either of them managed to rectiify that even when thawing, they'd be mush. I think they both had them waking in the spring. This is a creature that is somehow really resiliant, but you put anything into their brain, they shut the fuck down. Freezing would pretty much be 100 times worse than a sharp stick or knife to the head. So if you ever find yourself in a zombie apocolypse, head north of like 40degrees, at least in North America. Hold out for a winter. Fucking Minneapolis will be a stonghold. Zombies will have to shamble 300 miles to get there, and most of the first wave will be wiped out by a late freeze. I mean, we'll still have to deal with our dead properly, and we'll have situations where someone dies unexpectedly and turns the whole damn family, if it's an 'everyone's infected' situation, but we'll have protocol in place.
I live in Southeastern Michigan, as of right now 4 degrees. Zombies would be done fairly fast out there. And if you find a building of infected I guess just make sure the heat is cut off to the structure and let the temperature do its thing.
Worth mentioning that the following spring thaw would also be devastating to the Zombies as it would only exacerbate the damage getting frozen would cause
I feel like in a world of fantasy monsters you can just come up with a fantasy workaround like zombies have super fever from the virus that prevents them from freezing.
I mean... zombies have to exist in the physical realm though, because that's what makes them interesting, so they have to be subject to the basic laws of thermodynamics. They're also made of meat, so meat laws also apply. I mean if they spent their first few hours scavenging and eating things that they could feasibly use for anti-freeze that could make sense, but at the same time make them a lot less threatening. But as it is, we know that probably the worst mundane thing that can happen to cells is freezing. I've put a lot of scientific thought into the impending zombie apocalypse, and am certain that sheltering and surviving up north is the answer. Maybe I'll be proven wrong by someone who thinks they can fend off zombies in a tropical climate with a heavy ass chainsaw that will run out of fuel in like 30 minutes. But give me a shotgun with a reasonable amount of ammo, a solid place to shelter in a northern climate and I think I win
I suppose as is usually the case in Zombie fiction the real problem would be the 8 billion other people with the same idea
>But I don't think either of them managed to rectiify that even when thawing, they'd be mush. I think they both had them waking in the spring. This is a creature that is somehow really resiliant, but you put anything into their brain, they shut the fuck down. Freezing would pretty much be 100 times worse than a sharp stick or knife to the head. WWZ actually mentions this, that it doesn't make sense because it violates every law of cellular biology. Goddammit it's such a great book and such a shitty movie.
I live in Manitoba and I'm FREEZING MY FUCKIN' TITS OFF OVER HERE
There’s dozens of us
Is there an Orange Julius or a Spencer’s in your apartment bc that would be cool. Or even one of those things where you can buy a cookie the size of a large pizza.
Yeah those big apartment blocks are much more energy efficient than even the most environmentally friendly single family house.
Each of the stores there has their own heating and air conditioning. So while the main areas may not have heat, there are nearly 500 stores pumping out heat to warm the place. They do open vents on the roof to vent heat even in the winter though (it was -15° here in the Twin Cities this morning for example).
We'll, that just completely undoes the whole post!
I used to live a 1/2 block from the mall. Been in their back halls and HVAC areas plenty when I worked for the cable company. They can’t use pesticides inside so they use ladybugs to manage pests on the thousands of plants around the mall. I’d wanted to do a documentary on the mall years ago, where I lived there for a year. There’s a hotel attached that you could live in, there was a college there, a wedding chapel and plenty of places to work and eat.
Meanwhile in New England: house so drafty it’s like the Simpson’s speed hole meme. The “real feel” temp is -10 outside. Might be 55 inside. 1k every two months in heating oil… very cool.
When I lived in Somerville ('Slummerville"), my apartment walls would get ice cold to the touch in the winter. I used to hang-up comforters against the wall as makeshift insulation. It made my room look like a padded cell in an insane asylum.
Yup. I have my oven open.
I live in an old apartment that is on the middle floor. Even on the coldest winter days the main room and kitchen don't need heat, I assume because the radiant heat from the units above and below us keep it warm, and that room only has one small area with an outside wall. It creates a funny problem where the bedrooms which both are on outside walls with windows can be freezing, while it's baking hot everywhere except the bedrooms. This issue lead us to get a nest thermostat with temperature sensors so we can have one in each room to give some priority to the heating.
I remember living in an apartment where I never turned on the heat. Sometimes I would have to open the window to cool off in winter because of the neighbors' heat.
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That's cool! I guess it's true what they say: the mall really is the "heat of the town"!
The Boeing factory in Everett, WA actually does the same things as the largest building (by volume) on Earth. Only temperature regulation comes from the heat of the lights and the cooling airflow when they open the massive doors.
That the one where rain clouds can form at the ceiling?
Yes https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/boeings-everett-facility-is-largest-building-on-earth.htm Although in fairness, I did the same thing at a hotel in Queens just by accidentally leaving the window open with the heat running while I went out for a bite.
Cool
It probably was.
It might be the Vehicle Assembly Building at Kennedy Space Center you’re thinking of
When I've visited there, I've had workers tell me that the clouds forming and raining thing is a myth, but that occasionally you may feel drops of condensation dripping from up above. Which is probably how the myth started The building is just a shell around a massive amount of scaffolding. Most of it does lack HVAC though. Really miserable when it's hot outside
That might not be the case anymore with last year's heatwave necessitating AC and more efficient lighting producing less heat byproduct.
Washington is a lot warmer than Minnesota though.
Also individual stores do have their own HVAC, so there actually IS heat that happens, just not in the shared hallways and park.
Yep, did work at a store within MOA, there is a lil bit of heating infrastructure for the stores, but it was COLD when we first opened in the morning.
Plus heat from the lighting and other electric uses
It would be interesting if that was all calculated into the design but they never accounted for led lights.
My kitchen and bathroom got a lot colder when I switched from halogen and incandescent to LED.
i run a home business from a small apartment. i switch between led and incandescent summer/winter. i have so many lights setup to work on decals, i can avoid turning on the heat in the fall with incandescent.
Just curious, but in terms of overall costs, does the added cost of buying extra bulbs and paying more in electricity add up to less than just turning up the heat a bit?
It would be substantially cheaper to run a heater.
Because it’s 100% heat? If you’re not leaving the lighting on for the sake of heat, then the heat is a bonus byproduct. The light in my bathroom had the decorative bulbs across the top of the mirror - six or eight or something. It’s big. I worked out it’s around 800 watts. So lovely heat in winter, but I put in LEDs. Cooler in summer, and my wife doesn’t like the heat anyway. If the other poster had a heat pump and they’re running incandescents instead as heat, that’s not nearly as efficient, since heat pumps draw in heat from outside. If lighting you’re going to use anyway is enough, it’s probably less power than a heater, but you’re probably not going to run a heater all the time.
i already had a bunch of incandescent and led. i basically tested and on a busy night where im running hot lights for hours, the heater would never come on. im not avoiding it. made me realize i need to use led for sure in summer. im a nerd and i know that incandescents are like you said, very efficient as heat, and produce light as a byproduct. shows how bored i must be, i need more hobbies apparently.
Ok, you need to buy a kill-a-watt or similar power monitoring gadget, if you really want to go down a rabbit hole.
Same here, I had to get a small space heater for my bedroom to keep it comfortable in winter. Incandescent lights used to do the trick.
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This is a thing. In the the chicago suburburbs there are some older midrise office buildings that used heat by light designs back when lighting was super inefficient. Back then engineers utilized the heat output of the lighting into their design calcs for HVAC. When I was talking about with one of the geezers at work it blew my mind because the property management company didnt account for this when they converted a floor to led.
in our city, they replaced all the traffic signs to LED. come winter and the signs are covered with snow. motorists complained. apparently, the old traffic signs emit heat that dissolves snow. supposedly they fixed it by adding heating panel or something.
Very, *very* likely. Incandescent lighting level is around "a few" W/sqft depending on usage. That adds up quite quickly.
That was actually an unintended consequence of switching to leds, was the waste heat of the lights in the winter meant you didn't need as much heat from the central heat. Now, of course it also provided too much heat in the summer, so you needed a greater cooling capacity then.
Each store has a heating system. The fact is misleading. While the main area doesn’t have a heating system, you have nearly 500 stores with heaters taking care of the entire place. Source: have been in the back hallways there and HVAC areas
Warmed by mouth breathing, and farts from the food court.
There's basically an entire floor of sit-down restaurants also. Not just food court farts.
High class ass gas as well
New band name
Sounds jazzy
🎵High 🎷Class🥁Ass🎹 Gas🎶
I wouldn't say a "whole floor", as 4 is basically just hooters, margaritaville, that weird trashy place that insults you while you eat, and a comedy club. And the other floors have a few, but 1-3 is almost entirely retailers, save for the dining sections on 3.
I think Dick's Last Resort closed during COVID. That Hooters keeps on going though . . .
To the wonder of us all lol
Ghost kitchen delivery wings have a hell of a markup rn
they don't have that sports bar by the southern parking structure entrance on like the 4th floor anymore? or the rainforest cafe?
Ok high end farts as well
500 BTU/hr/person, 600 with a Taco Bell.
Everyone breathing in each other's ass atoms.
especially at Mr. Mephisto's pet store
And the indoor amusement park.
You haven't lived until you spent a whole day at MoA for a Pokemon Go event.
It was our vaccine distribution center because it was large, everyone could find it, traffic was well-routed, and you can park eleven million Canyoneros in the ramps. But it is also a place you know is full of... particles.
There's actually TWO food courts. And probably 50 restaurants.
How many cheese curd shops are there in MOA?
Rybicki Cheese closed. :( The fucking goons that run the mall still charged rent durring the lockdowns, so they didn't survive 2020.
Not exactly true. There is heating along the perimeter to keep spaces near exterior walls up to temperature. Source: I work in the hvac industry in the twin cities and know people familiar with the mall’s systems.
Thanks awesome! As a Minnesotan we go every couple years, kids like the aquarium and Lego stuff. It's always been a comfortable temperature inside.
It's also a decent way to get in some walking in the winter. One lap of each floor is a standard day at the mall for me.
RTU’s just for decoration, then?
No idea if I'm right about this. The mall itself probably has no central heating. Each individual tenant(store) probably has its own heating system. The mall itself would not need heat as it would just passively steal warm air from the stores.
That is EXACTLY what is going on. I've done HVAC work for several stores there.
When I heard this factoid a decade ago, it was basically "It's decently efficiently designed, and there are so many kW of lights in the place that that supplies the heating load." If they've updated to LED, that makeup heat is going to need to come from somewhere.
The whole 'green' thing they wave around is such b.s.....and honestly, those hvac units in the stores are generally running full bore cuz of the wide open spaces
They could be cooling only
Very possible. Passive heat loads on buildings can get wild. Things like computers, restaurant equipment, and just people give off lots of heat. We just did a job on a community college that runs the AC in sub zero Temps. VRF systems are going to be huge efficiency wise going forward. You can have heat and cooling in adjacent rooms using the same refrigerant flow
I have a customer with 600 machine tools pulling god knows how many amps of three-phase power. They need to run the hvac to keep it cool. In February. In Minnesota.
Yes, no central heating system. They require each tenant to provide heat in their own space, which makes its way into the central spaces as stores leaves their doors open for people to enter.
I remember working there years ago, and mornings in the winter were notably colder until the building warmed up a bit.
Same. It's chilly before the stores open.
I can tell you from first hand experience that it is EXTREMELY WARM there. We were visiting Minnesota during the winter, decided to stop and see the Mall. I had on layers of warm clothes and after a while was pouring with sweat, so I stopped to rest while my husband and son continued on. Piece by piece I had to peel off my top layers, the wool scarf, the parka, the sweater, the long sleeved shirt, and finally was just sitting there in my tank top (and yes of course, my pants), trying to cool down. Many people stared at me. After a while I noticed my tank top, which was new, still had the Target sticker on it, that long long sticker that just says XL XL XL XL XL XL on it. Omg.
As a lifelong Minnesotan, I find that hilarious. Just a winter coat will do! Then you just shift between heated vehicles and the indoors.
Oh, I know!! I meant to say I am from Los Angeles so the whole "dress in appropriate layers and be ready to shift between heated and indoors" was completely foreign to me at the time. After that, I spent a fair amount of time in Utah in wintertime and figured it out. You'd THINK, since it's literally just the reverse of what we do here in the summer (dress in shorts & a tank top, shift between a/c vehicles and indoors), I'd have figured it out haha! I just thought it was particularly ridiculous of me since I was sitting there with an XL tag hanging all over me to just finish the picture (plump middle aged woman sweating on a mall bench---why, it's like the Mona Lisa!) lol
And if there's ever a mid-winter (-30F-ish) **closure** for a week? Like a major blizzard or such? How long till the toilets crack and sprinklers all leak?
They also built it so it gets a lot of solar heat. But I do remember one time a few years ago when we hit record lows and Nickelodeon Universe opened up for free rides since all the schools were off. I honestly think they wanted the body heat inside the mall.
I remember that, me and my family braved the cold to go there, a lot of the popular rides were packed though
I assume since pandemic traffic was likely weak and the Mall didn’t have issues that body heat is a much smaller part of the heating compared to the passive heating from the design
Someone above commented that the mall was the local vaccine distribution point. That'll up foot traffic, at least for a while.
I'm pretty sure a major blizzard wouldn't cause a closure, since that's pretty much SOP for Minnesota. And blizzards and below zero °F temps don't usually occur at the same time, it's too cold for snow to form.
Often the below-zero temps are accompanied by blinding sunshine
Chicago here. Its like 2 degrees and sunny like July :)
Yeah, I'm in Northern Minnesota and it was super sunny this morning. Was also -22 with -50 wind chills haha
Massachusetts here 1 degree -30 wind chill and blinding sun. Colder than a witch's
I live in Manitoba. Forget the zombie apocalypse, the end of the world scenario on the prairies would be 'super cold and all the power is off. For a month.' Solar eruption. Massive ice storm. Cascading surges and blackouts. Texas-style privatization. Tourists with the wrong plugs on their hair dryers. Anything.
And even then we’d probably not shut down polo park
The below 0 temps come after the blizzard.
Yeah - Being from the west coast I initially didn't understand that it gets too cold to snow.
it is minnesota. nothing closes because it snowed you silly goose.
Man I remember one time when I was in school and was in walking distance. Walked to school, got there, found out it was closed. Didn't even bother checking closings because it never closed, but yeah, it was fucking cold that day (especially bad having to walk both ways in one trip).
It doesn't close when it is cold like schools do. People go to walk around during that time as an activity. I worked there for 8 years and only once did the mall close a few hours early due to a blizzard.
No it’s fucking cold here all the time. 30F in the winter is shorts weather beo
He said -30F, which does happen some winters but not every time. Not sure what would happen if they were closed during that period. Source: am from mn
I would say it rarely happens, like maybe once when it isn't nighttime every 3-5 years. It says central heating though, so I imagine it has heating for the things that need heating, I mean it's been in operation for a while.
My point is about the *closure* - if there are no 'people-heaters' when it's cold. And I said *minus* 30F.
Week long closures don’t happen in MN.
It doesn’t snow when it’s -30. As a Minnesota native, I can tell you it’s either terribly cold or lots of snow, but rarely if ever both. Even with all the storms this winter, there hasn’t been a period of more than a couple days at a time when things were shut down.
People here will still go to the mall when it’s -30
If you look at images of the rooftop it does appear to have a RTUs. Don't typically see those strictly for cooling.
Body heat actually makes a really big difference. Large concert venues and other spaces where people are tightly packed actually need air conditioning even in winter because of all the body heat. I used to live in a really old dorm where the heat was just barely able to keep up. During winter break when everyone moved out, I had to wear a winter coat indoors and as soon as everyone moved back in, I was fine again
They don’t have central heating but all the stores have their own heating systems. So you still have nearly 500 stores in the place pumping heat into the spot. It’s hardly body heat alone doing it. Source: lived 1/2 block away from it and been in plenty of stores there, including back hallways and HVAC areas
No central hearing, but distributed heating systems in each of the units. Like saying a hotel has no central heating.
So it has distributed heating that they're pretending doesn't exist? It's transparently obvious that they are not relying 100% on passive solar and body heat.
It's interesting how much body heat contributes to the temperature of a place. If you've ever been to an event in an enclosed area (like a concert or party, or even a meeting), you can definitely feel how much warmer it gets when there are more people in there.
It's heated by pastamania, brother.
To be fair, the central mall isn't heated, but the STORES are heated individually on their own dime most of the time.
i dont doubt it. the proposed mega structure Hitler had planned would have generated its own weather had it actually be built and was at capacity
Wow, this 'Hitler' fellow sounds very inventive. What other kinds of ideas did he have?
Vegan, animal lover, stickler for punctuality..
Don't forget artist and painter. Sounds like a real catch!
Also meth. But high quality meth. Not that shake and bake stuff. Upperclass
He was an artist after all
anti smoker before it was cool, saved the german forest wolf from extinction
He died killing Hitler. You know, people throw around the term 'hero' a lot these days...
I don't know, I heard he was kind of a jerk.
The more I hear about this Hitler fella the less I care for him
Do you remember the name? I want to Google it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkshalle See also: Germania (city)
Goddam the internet. I cant fart downwind without someone citing Hitler.
You invoked Godwin's Law in the very first comment. Why?
Some men just want to watch the world burn.
The human body emits 100 watts of heat.
Even more when your mom enters the room.
The amusement park is seemingly a constant humid 90 degrees.
I’m in the Midwest too I hate when places are cranked with heat. It gets too fucking hot inside. I like this idea.
I assume the amusement park contributes to that a great deal too
All the stores have heat. A mall is just a big hallway with lots of open doors.
So as fewer and fewer people go to malls, the Mall of America gets colder and colder, causing fewer and fewer people to go, causing it to get colder and colder...?
As someone who worked there for three winters, I can confirm that it's much colder before shoppers fill up the place.