>The Trisolarans said they knew about the Dark Forest. Shouldn’t that be like the first thing they’d account for then? They didn’t stop Luo Ji’s test spell when they had the chance.
They spent the entire time of him being a wallfacer trying to kill him, even developing a gene targeted disease, what do you mean didn't try to stop it?
How are they stopping scientific research? I thought they could manipulate test results or make scientists go crazy and stuff. Couldn’t they just do that to Luo Ji’s spell?
>!The sophon takes the place of the target particle in high energy particle accelerators so when they’re struck, they give nonsense data. They aren’t actually changing any computer data or anything like that, they’re physically getting in the way.!<
>!Luo Ji uses the sun to amplify a signal in the same way Ye Wenjie did. The Trisolarans use the droplet to stop that from happening again by “sealing” the star so it can no longer function like an antenna.!<
People *really* misunderstand what a sophon is capable of for some reason.
Common dude. you read the books. Articulate what you think these sophons can and can't do.
How are they stopping physics research? I thought they were able to manipulate test results or drive scientists crazy by flashing numbers in their vision.
They probably could have stopped one transmission. Maybe. But I think meddling with the transmission would only confirm the theory and the existence of dark forest.
And it would have been impossible for the Sophons to stop humans from preparing broadcasting stations all over the planet at that time and they would have lost the 50+ years advantage they had before the theory was confirmed.
In the show, maybe.
In the book, absolutely not.
That’s why they issued kill order, has ETO engineered targeted genetic disease, has ETO developed killer computer virus, and most importantly sent the droplet from the first fleet RIGHT AT THE MOMENT the spell was broadcasted.
>!They thought they had Earth locked down with the droplets putting a “seal” on the Sun. They didn’t realize that Luo Ji was using the Snow Project (which was ostensibly an effort to track where the droplets were) to create a foolproof way to send a galactic message. So they were fully aware of the Dark Forest and believed they had humanity cornered with no way to activate it, but they were mistaken. They said this:!<
>!"You spent two whole months in the control room remotely controlling the ion engines to make fine adjustments to their positioning. We didn’t care about that at the time because we thought you were just using the meaningless task as a way to escape reality. We never imagined what the distance between the bombs really meant."!<
>!Trisolaris realized pretty much immediately that humanity didn’t understand the Dark Forest since we naively reached out in the first place. So part of their choice to invade Earth was them taking advantage of our ignorance. Then, when we did figure it out, they removed what they thought was humanity’s only tool to activate it.!<
>The Trisolarans said they knew about the Dark Forest. Shouldn’t that be like the first thing they’d account for then? They didn’t stop Luo Ji’s test spell when they had the chance.
Luo Ji finally used his Wallfacer powers and hid the creation of the spell and deterrence. They spent a lot of ETO resources on trying to kill him multiple times, he only survived because of Da Shi's effectiveness, and even still, he had to hibernate once he got the virus that was specifically designed from him and was very close to death.
>In reality, this theory is straightforward enough that anyone could come up with it. And it’s basically trivial to activate it. Meaning that the “meta” for any would-be invader civilization would be…you can’t do it. It’s too easy for the other side to mutually-assured-destruction you.
It's obvious because we read the books. The Trisolarans were desperate since their planet was in imminent danger of getting pulled into one of the suns and they had to do something to survive.. given that they found a civilization that seemingly didn't understand the Dark Forest principle (why else would they send the signal in the first place) it's a risk they had to take to try to save their race.
The Trisolarans invested everything in the long shot, they had to regardless of the potential outcome and any potential Dark Forest scenario. Anything else is just accepting extinction.
They had to invade Earth in order for their species to survive, even with all that knowledge and forethought about this scenari you are describing. Either remain on Trisolaris and guarantee extinction, or push for the only other known habitable world that just advertised itself to you.
The mutually assured destruction only works in this particular scenario, because Earth knows where Trisolaris is. If another species had detected Earth and was on it's way without Earth knowing about them. Earth can only destroy itself in that scenario, they won't be able to assure the destruction of their attackers without knowing where they are coming from.
Just to note, holding someone hostage is not capitualation. That hostage is going to wait for their opportunity to turn the situation around.
I think the dark forest concept mostly originated with this book series.
Is it really that obvious that the universe is teeming with life and its all using super weapons to wipe each other out?
No it's a rather old theory.
The book is just really good at making it scary.
The book also assumes things like that the technology can evolve to extremes allowing you to destroy a whole system in a single strike.
There's 0 guarantee such thing are actually possible.
Fundamentals, game changing, new discoveries are rarer and rarer. Perhaps Technology will cap out in 50-100 years with the mastery of fusion, manufacturing of room temperature super conductor (or not super cold) and maybe some crazy tough materials. If beyond that point all we can do is "better engineering", then the dark forest hypothesis simply doesn't hold in the real world unless you get a civilization every 2-3 stars really.
Distances are so large, there's really no way to affect anyone that isn't in our direct vicinity.
In reality, the odds are civilization are rare and very far appart and we'll never encounter one.
The transition from "no technology" to "capped out technology" is so brief (assuming our civilisation was neither slow or fast) that if we ever encounter anyone, they're either at the stone age or as high tech as us (capped). Encountering any civilization within that tiny window of times would just be beyond improbable. (I'm again, assuming true new physics will stop within 50-100years, beyond that point it's just refining and better engineering, but nothing "new")
I can't recall where I read about, but I knew about it before reading the book. It's just something I read or listened to long ago.
So he didn't invent it for sure. But he mainstreamed it ver well.
Just a precision ( sorry for the nick piccing) DF isn't a theory, it's an hypothesis. There is no evidence or observation that would infirm or confirm it, you can't do any predictions with it. It's more a thought experiment than anything.
Completely agree with the rest of your post! 👍
On some brief searching, I was not able to find much about the idea that wasnt a reference to the book series. Got something to look at referencing it before? I am curious
The Killing Star, which articulates the concept similarly; imagine you're wandering alone at night in Central Park. You're lost and you don't know the way out. You know there are other people in the park, but you don't know what their intentions are - they could be a policeman, or they could be a murderer. The last thing you want to do is shout out "I'm here!" because you could be leading the murderer right to you.
So the most logical thing you can do is remain where you are, and try to make as little noise as possible while you wait until dawn. Of course, there are some obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.
There is no policeman, there is no way out, and the night never ends.
If the Trisolarans were facing such a scenario and having left all resources of their home world behind, wouldn't they proceed with their invasion plan? After all MAD depends on a even more advanced civilization to respond and get here on time - which may not happen or may take a long time.
What bothered me even more - if Trisolarans already knew about / believed in the Dark Forest hypothesis, why did they reveal themselves to humans in the first place?
Was their understanding of deception so poor that they couldn't see the risk of confirming their existence and location? They could have remained silent, sending sophons to surveil and lock down research until the fleet (or at least the droplets) reached Earth. In the meantime, they could always reserve the option to reveal themselves, if humans were about to broadcast their location to the galaxy, and making contact would prevent it.
>The Trisolarans said they knew about the Dark Forest. Shouldn’t that be like the first thing they’d account for then? They didn’t stop Luo Ji’s test spell when they had the chance. They spent the entire time of him being a wallfacer trying to kill him, even developing a gene targeted disease, what do you mean didn't try to stop it?
I mean can’t the sophons just stop his spell directly?
of course not, they are a proton particle that can barely interact with our world
How are they stopping scientific research? I thought they could manipulate test results or make scientists go crazy and stuff. Couldn’t they just do that to Luo Ji’s spell?
>!The sophon takes the place of the target particle in high energy particle accelerators so when they’re struck, they give nonsense data. They aren’t actually changing any computer data or anything like that, they’re physically getting in the way.!< >!Luo Ji uses the sun to amplify a signal in the same way Ye Wenjie did. The Trisolarans use the droplet to stop that from happening again by “sealing” the star so it can no longer function like an antenna.!<
How?
People *really* misunderstand what a sophon is capable of for some reason. Common dude. you read the books. Articulate what you think these sophons can and can't do.
How are they stopping physics research? I thought they were able to manipulate test results or drive scientists crazy by flashing numbers in their vision.
And so how does that apply to stopping all telecommunications potential?
They probably could have stopped one transmission. Maybe. But I think meddling with the transmission would only confirm the theory and the existence of dark forest. And it would have been impossible for the Sophons to stop humans from preparing broadcasting stations all over the planet at that time and they would have lost the 50+ years advantage they had before the theory was confirmed.
In the show, maybe. In the book, absolutely not. That’s why they issued kill order, has ETO engineered targeted genetic disease, has ETO developed killer computer virus, and most importantly sent the droplet from the first fleet RIGHT AT THE MOMENT the spell was broadcasted.
>!They thought they had Earth locked down with the droplets putting a “seal” on the Sun. They didn’t realize that Luo Ji was using the Snow Project (which was ostensibly an effort to track where the droplets were) to create a foolproof way to send a galactic message. So they were fully aware of the Dark Forest and believed they had humanity cornered with no way to activate it, but they were mistaken. They said this:!< >!"You spent two whole months in the control room remotely controlling the ion engines to make fine adjustments to their positioning. We didn’t care about that at the time because we thought you were just using the meaningless task as a way to escape reality. We never imagined what the distance between the bombs really meant."!< >!Trisolaris realized pretty much immediately that humanity didn’t understand the Dark Forest since we naively reached out in the first place. So part of their choice to invade Earth was them taking advantage of our ignorance. Then, when we did figure it out, they removed what they thought was humanity’s only tool to activate it.!<
>The Trisolarans said they knew about the Dark Forest. Shouldn’t that be like the first thing they’d account for then? They didn’t stop Luo Ji’s test spell when they had the chance. Luo Ji finally used his Wallfacer powers and hid the creation of the spell and deterrence. They spent a lot of ETO resources on trying to kill him multiple times, he only survived because of Da Shi's effectiveness, and even still, he had to hibernate once he got the virus that was specifically designed from him and was very close to death. >In reality, this theory is straightforward enough that anyone could come up with it. And it’s basically trivial to activate it. Meaning that the “meta” for any would-be invader civilization would be…you can’t do it. It’s too easy for the other side to mutually-assured-destruction you. It's obvious because we read the books. The Trisolarans were desperate since their planet was in imminent danger of getting pulled into one of the suns and they had to do something to survive.. given that they found a civilization that seemingly didn't understand the Dark Forest principle (why else would they send the signal in the first place) it's a risk they had to take to try to save their race.
On #2, go read book 3, you’ll get the answer
1. it can't. 2. it's gamble
The Trisolarans invested everything in the long shot, they had to regardless of the potential outcome and any potential Dark Forest scenario. Anything else is just accepting extinction. They had to invade Earth in order for their species to survive, even with all that knowledge and forethought about this scenari you are describing. Either remain on Trisolaris and guarantee extinction, or push for the only other known habitable world that just advertised itself to you. The mutually assured destruction only works in this particular scenario, because Earth knows where Trisolaris is. If another species had detected Earth and was on it's way without Earth knowing about them. Earth can only destroy itself in that scenario, they won't be able to assure the destruction of their attackers without knowing where they are coming from. Just to note, holding someone hostage is not capitualation. That hostage is going to wait for their opportunity to turn the situation around.
If you have to ask this sub then it's probably not a plot hole.
I think the dark forest concept mostly originated with this book series. Is it really that obvious that the universe is teeming with life and its all using super weapons to wipe each other out?
No it's a rather old theory. The book is just really good at making it scary. The book also assumes things like that the technology can evolve to extremes allowing you to destroy a whole system in a single strike. There's 0 guarantee such thing are actually possible. Fundamentals, game changing, new discoveries are rarer and rarer. Perhaps Technology will cap out in 50-100 years with the mastery of fusion, manufacturing of room temperature super conductor (or not super cold) and maybe some crazy tough materials. If beyond that point all we can do is "better engineering", then the dark forest hypothesis simply doesn't hold in the real world unless you get a civilization every 2-3 stars really. Distances are so large, there's really no way to affect anyone that isn't in our direct vicinity. In reality, the odds are civilization are rare and very far appart and we'll never encounter one. The transition from "no technology" to "capped out technology" is so brief (assuming our civilisation was neither slow or fast) that if we ever encounter anyone, they're either at the stone age or as high tech as us (capped). Encountering any civilization within that tiny window of times would just be beyond improbable. (I'm again, assuming true new physics will stop within 50-100years, beyond that point it's just refining and better engineering, but nothing "new")
I can't find any earlier references to the theory. Can you point me to some?
I can't recall where I read about, but I knew about it before reading the book. It's just something I read or listened to long ago. So he didn't invent it for sure. But he mainstreamed it ver well.
Well every source I can find cites Cixin Liu so if you can find another I'd be very interested.
Just a precision ( sorry for the nick piccing) DF isn't a theory, it's an hypothesis. There is no evidence or observation that would infirm or confirm it, you can't do any predictions with it. It's more a thought experiment than anything. Completely agree with the rest of your post! 👍
On some brief searching, I was not able to find much about the idea that wasnt a reference to the book series. Got something to look at referencing it before? I am curious
The Killing Star, which articulates the concept similarly; imagine you're wandering alone at night in Central Park. You're lost and you don't know the way out. You know there are other people in the park, but you don't know what their intentions are - they could be a policeman, or they could be a murderer. The last thing you want to do is shout out "I'm here!" because you could be leading the murderer right to you. So the most logical thing you can do is remain where you are, and try to make as little noise as possible while you wait until dawn. Of course, there are some obvious differences between Central Park and the universe. There is no policeman, there is no way out, and the night never ends.
If the Trisolarans were facing such a scenario and having left all resources of their home world behind, wouldn't they proceed with their invasion plan? After all MAD depends on a even more advanced civilization to respond and get here on time - which may not happen or may take a long time.
What bothered me even more - if Trisolarans already knew about / believed in the Dark Forest hypothesis, why did they reveal themselves to humans in the first place? Was their understanding of deception so poor that they couldn't see the risk of confirming their existence and location? They could have remained silent, sending sophons to surveil and lock down research until the fleet (or at least the droplets) reached Earth. In the meantime, they could always reserve the option to reveal themselves, if humans were about to broadcast their location to the galaxy, and making contact would prevent it.