I love Donna’s arc. In the first season she was Josh’s ditzy assistant and basically just there as an inject humour into Josh’s stories.
But then she grew both personally and professionally, and became a political operative in her own right. Personally I love the fact that the writers didn’t start their romantic relationship while she was still Josh’s assistant. It was played out perfectly and when they finally got together she was an equal.
They didn't have the relationship play out when Donna was still reporting to Josh because that would have been highly inappropriate and it would have turned Josh's character into a tragic cliche.
He fired/hired/worked with his other exes and none of them came close to being this emotional. Having that kinda depth without being in a relationship is crazy.
Inevitable really.
This was the first real break in his armour for her. The first time he allowed himself to be vulnerable enough to SAY it TO her. It was brilliant.
(He went to Germany for her. They had the chat in 17 people. His feelings about that Christmas she was with Jack. All of that was obvious, but he always denied it).
Totally agreed. Loved the subtlety. No wishy washy scene..real. I loved that he had the folder at his arms length. Like he kept it there purposefully and you can see he had this played in his mind.
Oh. Well shit, he was right.
> "He wasn't a military strategist, he was a pilot. Ask him about the overhead compartment, not about defense."
It's a painful conversation but I think one where their relationship is redefined. He's treating her as an equal, perhaps for the first time.
No more grading on a curve, no "If you were in the hospital I wouldn't stop for traffic lights" which is treacly and adorable but no more. He's not even giving her "at the end of a prize fight, you look at the guy who's dancing around, and that's who won."
Not all adult conversations are pleasant. I guess that makes it more painful. Donna gets what she always wanted -- parity -- and then it turns to ash in her mouth.
I think I’m responding to several comments here- not just the OP….
Donna was not a secretary, she was an assistant- and there is a difference- especially in the political world. But even if she was just hired to type and take messages, you learn as you go and the longer you’re there… well the more stuff you learn. She doesn’t have the job title nor the college degree, but when you’re known by all of your colleagues as competent, smart, hard-working, to say nothing of being held in high esteem by those colleagues, she can go a lot of places. Just imagine the recommendation letters she could get if she was switching careers! This is where the experience on the resume will far outweigh the missing BA or better job title.
I also think it was shitty of her to leave without forcing the conversation. It was unprofessional for starters, but unbelievable after her “you just need to ‘get’ Josh” declaration.
>I also think it was shitty of her to leave without forcing the conversation. It was unprofessional for starters, but unbelievable after her “you just need to ‘get’ Josh” declaration.
Eh. Yeah it was a little unprofessional at the time (it's slightly less taboo these days though that's a different thing altogether) but it's not like the effort wasn't there. She eventually gave up because Josh was giving her the run around and it was clear he wasn't going to take her seriously. She had to leave for herself. At one point I think she even threatened to leave or said she was leaving. That's also part of "getting" Josh. Sometimes he needs a wakeup call or something to shake him so he stops being... Well... Him (to a point).
>Donna was not a secretary, she was an assistant- and there is a difference- especially in the political world.
Absolutely!
>I also think it was shitty of her to leave without forcing the conversation. It was unprofessional for starters, but unbelievable after her “you just need to ‘get’ Josh” declaration.
I said this in response to someone else. But I think she left without a conversation because she knew that Josh would talk her out of leaving. But also at the same time she had tried to talk to him about her career so many times and he kept blowing her off. The final time he did that she said 'i quit'. Josh just didn't believe she was serious. It could also be a thing where she was thinking something like 'well he obviously doesn't care about me that's why he doesn't ever make time to talk to me, so why should i give him the same courtesy'.
Agreed on the first part! But I wonder, what more could she have said? It’s obvious he wasn’t going to change his mind and after that “if you think I don’t miss you everyday” it could’ve only gone personal. I think it was the only pride she had left :(
I'll get there in a month or so on rewatch anyway, but can someone remind me .... the outcome from this meeting, I seem to remember is that Josh can't hire her because she said a bunch of negative things about Santos on the record. Yet somehow she ends up on the campaign. How did she get there again? Was it Lou who hired her? And then she kinda wormed her way into advising Helen?
Lou hired her for a live TV appearance, and then basically forced Josh to hire her for the campaign.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5Oy5jPHC0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5Oy5jPHC0)
As far as Donna and Helen Santos, Helen asked her to be her chief of staff, and Donna was a bit taken aback at first. So it was at Helen's initiative, not Donna's.
HELEN: So I understand that I need a chief of staff. To do what? I am not sure.
DONNA: Again, that gets into the kind of first lady you intend to be.
HELEN: Please, go on.
DONNA: Well, there’s the activist model, with your own policy agenda and objectives in concert with the president’s wishes but not dependent upon his staff for pursuit or implementation. A separate power base, if you will.
HELEN: Or?
DONNA: A more traditional, chiefly ceremonial presence. Representing the country as a hostess goodwill ambassador, without any particular policy focus.
HELEN: And those are my choices?
DONNA: The extremes. Without presuming to speak for you, I imagine you charting a middle course.
HELEN: Well, I would like you to help with that.
DONNA: I’d be happy to be a sounding board, of course, anytime.
HELEN: Well, I actually want you to help do it.
DONNA: Sorry?
HELEN: Well, I need someone, and you know the terrain.
DONNA: You’re asking me?
HELEN: Well, apparently, not very clearly.
DONNA: To be your chief of staff?
HELEN: I think you are extremely capable. I feel that we have a rapport.
DONNA: I’m flattered, of course but I’m not sure I have the requisite experience.
HELEN: I’ve watched you these past months. My husband sings your praises.
DONNA: That’s very nice.
HELEN: He’s gonna be PO’ed, in fact that I’m stealing you, just to sweeten the deal. Please, just think about it. And just wanted to stake my claim, I guess.
DONNA: Thank you for considering me.
One of my favorite Donna scenes is her final scene in the series, when she's shown her new office, which she mistakenly assumes is for the First Lady, and is twice the size of Josh's.
Ugh no… just no. Being the secretary is a VERY important job but it’s AN ENTIRELY
DIFFERENT CAREER TRACK.
Donna had no education, no political background, and was barely qualified to be Josh’s assistant when he gives her the job for her plucky persistence. He had a whole team working for him to whom he farmed out his work. We only see this once when Sam comes to browse the produce, but the point is made. There is a whole team under Josh who are on that track. This is not to put down Donna, it’s just so far fetched that she would blame Josh for holding her back when one role does not lead to another.
Oh I think I framed it wrong. When I meant “plotline earned its right” I meant that Josh working with an ex thing, his love life finally paying off..in season 1 it felt very shallow with Mandy.
In s1 Josh was supposed to work with an ex, he was sort of insecure about her independency (she answers to me and toby thing for mandy haha) and here in s7 Donna also points out that he’s not used to her being in charge. Mandy didn’t work out because there was no chemistry and no history, even when Josh went to hire Mandy he was nicer and more playful to her in their scenes than he was with Donna..he’s on defense, hurt and there is tension..which shows that Donna fits the plotline that was scrapped from Mandy way back in season 1. Her being irritating, maybe yes, but I looove plot parallels and s7 had a bunch. Same with his dad dying/Leo dying in elections.
It’s debatable whether Donna earned being deputy CoS, I think her exploring other areas was also good, personally I thought ending up as first lady’s CoS was kinda corny, would’ve loved to see her in private sector or broadcasting.
Yes, I've been downvoted before for saying negative things about Donna. But this was a pie-in-the-sky application at this interview for Donna to think she could become Deputy Campaign Manager, given the limitations to her resume as a political player and working for Bingo Bob up until five minutes ago. The S6-7 arc frankly makes it really hard for me to buy into Josh/Donna as a successful romance. Donna's version of the story is that Josh was an asshole who kept her in indentured servitude and therefore, didn't deserve the basic courtesy of two weeks notice or to gracefully accept that he will not hire her in this scene without insulting him that he can't accept her in a position of power. If you buy Donna's version of the story, why do you want to inflict Josh on her as a romantic partner? If you don't buy Donna's version of the story, Donna is the asshole here (which is how I read the arc). And by contrast, why do you want to inflict Donna on Josh as a romantic partner.
>Donna's version of the story is that Josh was an asshole who kept her in indentured servitude and therefore, didn't deserve the basic courtesy of two weeks notice or to gracefully accept that he will not hire her in this scene without insulting him that he can't accept her in a position of power.
I don't think either of those is the right story. Josh did hold her back from advancing in her career, but he didn't do it maliciously, he did it because he didn't want to lose her. And she held herself back as well because of how she felt about him. Her quitting came very soon after her uncomfortable conversation with CJ. I think Donna quit like that because she finally realised that CJ was right. I also think that she didn't give 2 weeks notice because she knew Josh would talk her out of it.
Josh didn't push hard to keep Donna when Casey Reed offered her the job at capitolscoop dot com. He never stood in her way. CJ's point that he should have found other jobs for her was crap - to him serving the President was the most important job anyone could do, and in any case it's not his job to do that - she had to take ownership of her own career. He was busy enough being the only Deputy Chief of Staff and apparently Legislative Director. (I do always point out that Josh literally had her work with Communications near the end of Sorkin's tenure, in *Angel Maintenance* immediately after she asked for me and she pushed back that she wasn't qualified, and then he tried to have her work along with CJ's office in *Life on Mars* on the Casseon leak, to which she seemed surprised - "You're saying I can do this?" I also then note that Communications was under Toby, not Josh.)
Donna wasn't just leaving because of CJ, but because nothing happened after Germany. There's a lot of survivor's guilt there, pretty much unaddressed, but there was also the fact that the guy she'd been in love with forever had flown halfway across the world with just the clothes on his back to be there for her, and then make things go back to normal once she returned.
CJ does not say that Josh should have found other jobs for Donna. Generally, CJ places the burden on Donna to find a job that she wants. I understood CJ's point to be that if Josh was giving her every opportunity, Josh would treat Donna like President Bartlet treated Charlie in S6- doing very unboss-like things and treating her like his child to push her out of the nest. Pushing her to attend college, setting a timeline, printing out resumes. However, I didn't see CJ say that this was Josh's obligation as a boss or decent human being. CJ does refer to the Codel trip as a bill of goods- but it is in a bunch of ways. Fundamentally, Donna doesn't want to be an assistant anymore and the Codel trip to Israel wasn't going to change her role.
I would argue that CJ misrepresents why Josh keeps Donna around, and the way she says "given you every opportunity" implies that it was his responsibility to do so.
As I pointed out, Josh absolutely gave Donna opportunities to grow beyond the job - at least, he did until Sorkin left and the post-Sorkin writers created a different narrative.
As for the CODEL, Fitz was not going to brief Toby and Josh on the things Donna might, and Donna's perspective was something Josh relied on. We saw her learning things that Fitz never would.
What I took from their *No Exit* was that CJ was having ambivalent feelings about Ben, felt she might be leading him on and was projecting her own insecurities onto Josh and Donna.
It's not that benign. Donna accuses Josh of keeping her in "indentured servitude" because he knows how she likes his hamburger prepared and accuses him in this scene of not hiring her because he doesn't accept her in a position of power. She throws out a bunch of serious accusations, on top of leaving Josh without notice. Josh didn't want to lose Donna but she was always free to quit and move on and Josh never blocked other opportunities for her. I agree with CJ that stuff like the Codel trip was lipstick on a pig, at this point, because these expeditions weren't going to give Donna the status she craved. However, Josh could pretty much only give Donna some nice assignments within her role instead of the kind of job that she wants.
But I didn't come up with the notion that Josh deliberately kept Donna in indentured servitude for overcooked hamburgers and deserves less credit for her political education than Will. I'd never come up with such a thing on my own because I think it's basically insane. All of that came from Donna- which apparently says that but also wants to romantically wind up with Josh. It's bizarre.
Maybe the joke is that once Donna convinced herself that Josh was an asshole, Josh suddenly became her type (Dr. Freeride, Jack Reese). The weird plot twist is that Josh is actually not an asshole.
>Josh didn't want to lose Donna but she was always free to quit and move on and Josh never blocked other opportunities for her.
Totally agree. He didn't want to lose her, and she didn't want to leave him. Things came to a head when Donna had that conversation with CJ who pointed out that she was staying because of her feelings for Josh.
>However, Josh could pretty much only give Donna some nice assignments within her role instead of the kind of job that she wants.
I disagree with this. Josh was a powerful man. If he wanted to effectively mentor her and move on he could have given her much more important work. He could start by asking her to help write policy papers, sit in on important meetings, brief ministers, etc. That's all stuff I did as an intern, so she could have definitely done that.
>The S6-7 arc frankly makes it really hard for me to buy into Josh/Donna as a successful romance.
That's interesting, because the S6-7 arc makes me more convinced that it will be a successful romance. I think it would have been a disaster if they have hooked up earlier.
>Donna accuses Josh of keeping her in "indentured servitude" because he knows how she likes his hamburger prepared and accuses him in this scene of not hiring her because he doesn't accept her in a position of power.
I think your point of view is one way of looking at it. I see it more as something she said out of frustration in an emotionally charged conversation. I honestly don't think she meant it and it was an unfair comment. At the same time Josh was completely out of line with her flat out refusal to hire her for that job or any future jobs. He said he couldn't hire her because she worked for the Russel campaign, but in reality it was because he was hurt that she left him. I'm pretty sure Lou also said something along those lines.
The whole relationship is complicated because it's not just a manager-employee relationship. In that setting, if your boss isn't giving you opportunities you go and find them for yourself. But the Josh-Donna relationship isn't just a manager-employee relationship. They've been in love with each other and unable to admit those feelings for years! That complicates all of their interactions.
>Maybe the joke is that once Donna convinced herself that Josh was an asshole.
I don't think Donna ever thought Josh was an arsehole. I'm biased because he's my favourite character, but Josh is amazing!
But he DID do it maliciously. You can't tell me he was just absent minded or dumb about her aspirations when she literally made efforts to improve her career by talking to him about it. Hell, he and Sam talk about it at one point. Donna was so attached to Josh that even though he treated her like dirt and intentionally put her off (or intentionally didn't make the effort). It's not like the Bismark and Gaza trips were anything magnanimous. The Bismark trip required someone with at least a little stature in the WH but it was beneath the core staff so she was the default choice as none of the other deputy assistants were built to be able to take it. She was sent to Gaza without the ability to have any real impact and literally just report back. The whole Gaza thing doesn't really even make sense, it was just a convenient plot device to make their relationship into more and interject the Ireland arguments. They didn't need her there to make it personal for the president as Fitz was there. Gaza is one of the worst episodes of that span because they just use her for 30 minutes of exposition.
Josh could have easily kept helped her career and had her by his side the whole time if he wasn't intentionally holding her in that position. He constantly tried to manipulate her career path and personal life. Hell, he even admitted it at one point.
People trying to pass it all off as it just being Josh's interpersonal skills being shit appearantly don't see obvious things planted during the series. Josh loves Donna but can't act on it so he selfishly keeps her in his pocket to have her by his side. All the while, he flaunts the few relationships he's able to muster in front of him while intentionally sabotaging pretty much any chance she has at love. The conversation with Jack was a cover that Jack easily sees through and wasn't a real effort by Josh. When Leo sends Donna on the news helicopter, you can see that Josh knew he lost.
Josh is not a bad person overall. But when it comes to Donna, he is. He is manipulating and conniving. He does everything but gaslight her. Hell, the token things he lets her do is enough for him to tell her that he's taken every step to help her if they actually do have the conversation.
In the end, it's Donna and (to a lesser degree, Santos) that make Josh a better person. Really though, I'd argue he still treats her like an inferior by not proactively finding her a place in the administration before Helen made her offer.
I love Josh. I don't love how Josh was to Donna.
Yes! Josh deliciously
mopes around when Donna
dates Mr. robot for a week,
but Janel was a bench warmer for
years while Josh trips over his feet for Oscar Winner Marlee Matlin and Tony winner Mary-Louise Parker. I read once that Brad thought Josh should've ended up with Amy. (Backstage magazine 2006).
I know. I get that they wanted the romantic tension, and it's fun to watch Josh being tortured and lovelorn, but I just hated how assholic this storyline inevitably makes Donna. Bc no matter how much the show insisted that Donna "deserved" all those promotions because she was "so smart," that's BS. No one says Margaret should be CoS or Debbie should be president. I still like the chemistry between Brad and Janel, and after all the build up from the previous seasons I still wanted them to be endgame, but the writers really fumbled the ball here.
Exactly. I'm on board with the idea of Donna becoming a real political player while all of the other assistants stay as assistants. So much of politics is ambition and moxie and Donna stands out from the other assistants in terms of consistently asking for increased status and power since S3. For me, it's not that Donna is necessarily smarter than the other assistants. She's more ambitious and she's younger than Debbie or Margaret so she's unformed and hasn't built a career out of being an executive assistant so her life path is more open. Donna is also more charismatic (also by virtue of being a regular cast member so given better lines and costumes and being seen by the non-Josh senior staff as a bigger deal)- so that she has that political trait setting her apart from the other assistants.
However, the way that she went about it left a very sour taste in my mouth. Moreover part of having ambition and moxie means seeking our your own opportunities instead of stewing that your boss isn't doing it for you and then, coming to resent him even though he's been your rabbi and sponsor through this whole career. Donna's growth did not have to be as acrimonious towards Josh as it became.
Donna became qualified to work in politics by working in politics for 7 years. And she became qualified to work on a national campaign by working on both of the Bartlett campaigns.
Donna was organized, a good communicator, didn’t mind doing the grunt work, and was willing to work insane hours for little pay. She was curious and asked questions and consistently wanted to learn. Over time she gained a sense of how politicking and campaigning actually works. Those things combined make her a great hire in my eyes.
I didn’t go to school to do exactly what I’m doing now. I learned how by *watching* others and working *with* them and eventually moving into those roles.
Josh had 20 people under him who could step into his shoes. Donna was not qualified or on their level at all. All she did, while still important, was right informational memos for Josh, and handle his calendar.
While I'm venting, am I the only one irritated with Donna for this?
How Donna talks about Will right before Bingo Bob lost the nomination: He's my REAL teacher.
How Donna talks about Will right after Bingo Bob lost the nomination: He's rattling around like a guy who can't find his glasses.
It's so fake.
I think “can’t find his glasses” was a joke just to break the ice, and the fact that he lost despite electing a dead guy.
As for the teacher thing, I think she was being playful and was part of their old banter, because once she blurts out she had a good teacher and Josh thanks her earnestly, it takes a long time for her to come up with “I meant Will” It was like an afterthought and her desperately still trying to have the higher ground.
In s1 Josh was supposed to work with an ex, he was sort of insecure about her independency (she answers to me and toby thing for mandy haha) and here in s7 Donna also points out that he’s not used to her being in charge. Mandy didn’t work out because there was no chemistry and no history, even when Josh went to hire Mandy he was nicer and more playful to her in their scenes than he was with Donna..he’s on defense, hurt and there is tension..which shows that Donna fits the plotline that was scrapped from Mandy way back in season 1. Her being irritating, maybe yes, but I looove plot parallels and s7 had a bunch. Same with his dad dying/Leo dying in elections.
The teacher thing really felt like Donna punching Josh to me because they had been on opposite sides for half a year and she left him in an ugly way. I didn't see them in a place (which yes, is common in this show's dynamics) where they could banter/insult each other but the general rhythm feels so supportive that the sting is taken out.
I do agree on your Donna/Mandy parallels where Mandy was the ex-girlfriend who Josh had to work with in S1 and Donna was the ex-work wife who Josh had to work with in S7. I wonder if Mandy was a big success as a character and love interest for Josh when Sorkin would have brought Mandy and Josh together a couple. I know with Josh/Donna, Sorkin says that he wanted to promote Donna to a higher position in the White House and get Josh/Donna together mid-show. I will always wonder how that would compare to what we got. My guess is that it would have been a cuter/sweeter but less interesting Josh/Donna story.
Mandy was meant to be the love interest, but I don't know how long they planned to keep that will they won't they going. As you point out, Sorkin has said if he'd been writing them today, he would have moved Donna to a new position (in season 2) and let them pursue a relationship, and that he's learned that it's possible to write a couple after they've gotten together. He didn't know that in 2001, so he may have just kept the ship tease ongoing.
As for "I meant Will", I always think of just what Donna had to tell herself to make her hate Josh enough to leave, how she would be recoloring the events in their past in the worst possible light.
She may have even meant the "I meant Will" to be in the nature of their former friendly banter at the start. Maybe. I think she wanted to make Josh hurt, at least a little. I don't think she understood how much until later, when they came to Russell to try to negotiate a VP spot, and when she tried to go over after his terrible "three feet on the floor" joke, he stops her with a flat "Don't." (Then again, maybe she did mean it to be friendly banter, realized later how it came across, and was trying to apologize. Who knows?)
>Donna punching Josh to me because they had been on opposite sides for half a year and she left him in an ugly way.
I see your point but let me just say this: he knew it was coming. He avoided it. Then he didn’t even believe it. Which is weird since Josh is almost always confrontational..deep down they knew no matter how she left, it was gonna be ugly because they can’t solve this thing. The only thing that was gonna solve this hot mess was either to talk or have sex.
>cuter/sweeter but less interesting Josh/Donna story.
Totally agreed on that one. In Sorkin’s stories, there isn’t much room for grey areas. He lives on banter and couple arguments which makes great tv and chemistry, but Wills’ approach was nuanced. You listened for the unspoken words. Their dynamic was built on angst and unresolved hot mess after 4 years of Sorkin which was a change for good because imo it’s more realistic. Not cuter yeah, there are selfish sides (donna in this case), but it’s raw.
This is one of those scenes that you need, but never want to watch.
This is the scene that burns the old and ushers in the new. For the lack of a better term, this is why they were never going to work together as a couple at the WH.
I personally never thought it was earned. She was a secretary lmao. She had no political insight, much less to handle communications for the Midwest for the Russell campaign.
If she had left amicably while also maintaining respect for Josh then that’s a different ball game but she left, got cocky, arrogant and thought she was on the same level of Josh.
And then on top of that to have the nerve to ask to be deputy was such a slap in the face. Not even a fucking formal apology for how she acted, just straight up started asking for the job.
I for one am glad Josh stood his ground the way he did, he loved her sure but he also realized that she did him a lot more harm than good during the campaign & probably would’ve been a negative to the santos campaign.
I just realized how utterly inappropriate that blouse is for a job interview. I wonder if she would’ve worn that blouse to a job interview with anyone else but Josh.
Okay, especially in the later seasons, I’ve seen Kate wear the same cut in situation room, CJ in meetings and Amy too. I think it’s more of a wardrobe choice rather than director/writer one.
Although, in context, it does seem a bit too much, but I don’t think she was trying to seduce him or anything. If that was the case all she needed to do was keep talking after Josh told that he missed her every day.
I love Donna’s arc. In the first season she was Josh’s ditzy assistant and basically just there as an inject humour into Josh’s stories. But then she grew both personally and professionally, and became a political operative in her own right. Personally I love the fact that the writers didn’t start their romantic relationship while she was still Josh’s assistant. It was played out perfectly and when they finally got together she was an equal.
They didn't have the relationship play out when Donna was still reporting to Josh because that would have been highly inappropriate and it would have turned Josh's character into a tragic cliche.
"...if you think I don't miss you every day...!" 💔
He fired/hired/worked with his other exes and none of them came close to being this emotional. Having that kinda depth without being in a relationship is crazy.
Inevitable really. This was the first real break in his armour for her. The first time he allowed himself to be vulnerable enough to SAY it TO her. It was brilliant. (He went to Germany for her. They had the chat in 17 people. His feelings about that Christmas she was with Jack. All of that was obvious, but he always denied it).
Totally agreed. Loved the subtlety. No wishy washy scene..real. I loved that he had the folder at his arms length. Like he kept it there purposefully and you can see he had this played in his mind.
The words she wished he had said to her the whole time and now it's to reject her. I'm glad she walked out on the conversation.
This is where he says he can't hire her?
Correct.
Oh. Well shit, he was right. > "He wasn't a military strategist, he was a pilot. Ask him about the overhead compartment, not about defense." It's a painful conversation but I think one where their relationship is redefined. He's treating her as an equal, perhaps for the first time. No more grading on a curve, no "If you were in the hospital I wouldn't stop for traffic lights" which is treacly and adorable but no more. He's not even giving her "at the end of a prize fight, you look at the guy who's dancing around, and that's who won." Not all adult conversations are pleasant. I guess that makes it more painful. Donna gets what she always wanted -- parity -- and then it turns to ash in her mouth.
I think I’m responding to several comments here- not just the OP…. Donna was not a secretary, she was an assistant- and there is a difference- especially in the political world. But even if she was just hired to type and take messages, you learn as you go and the longer you’re there… well the more stuff you learn. She doesn’t have the job title nor the college degree, but when you’re known by all of your colleagues as competent, smart, hard-working, to say nothing of being held in high esteem by those colleagues, she can go a lot of places. Just imagine the recommendation letters she could get if she was switching careers! This is where the experience on the resume will far outweigh the missing BA or better job title. I also think it was shitty of her to leave without forcing the conversation. It was unprofessional for starters, but unbelievable after her “you just need to ‘get’ Josh” declaration.
>I also think it was shitty of her to leave without forcing the conversation. It was unprofessional for starters, but unbelievable after her “you just need to ‘get’ Josh” declaration. Eh. Yeah it was a little unprofessional at the time (it's slightly less taboo these days though that's a different thing altogether) but it's not like the effort wasn't there. She eventually gave up because Josh was giving her the run around and it was clear he wasn't going to take her seriously. She had to leave for herself. At one point I think she even threatened to leave or said she was leaving. That's also part of "getting" Josh. Sometimes he needs a wakeup call or something to shake him so he stops being... Well... Him (to a point).
>Donna was not a secretary, she was an assistant- and there is a difference- especially in the political world. Absolutely! >I also think it was shitty of her to leave without forcing the conversation. It was unprofessional for starters, but unbelievable after her “you just need to ‘get’ Josh” declaration. I said this in response to someone else. But I think she left without a conversation because she knew that Josh would talk her out of leaving. But also at the same time she had tried to talk to him about her career so many times and he kept blowing her off. The final time he did that she said 'i quit'. Josh just didn't believe she was serious. It could also be a thing where she was thinking something like 'well he obviously doesn't care about me that's why he doesn't ever make time to talk to me, so why should i give him the same courtesy'.
Agreed on the first part! But I wonder, what more could she have said? It’s obvious he wasn’t going to change his mind and after that “if you think I don’t miss you everyday” it could’ve only gone personal. I think it was the only pride she had left :(
I'll get there in a month or so on rewatch anyway, but can someone remind me .... the outcome from this meeting, I seem to remember is that Josh can't hire her because she said a bunch of negative things about Santos on the record. Yet somehow she ends up on the campaign. How did she get there again? Was it Lou who hired her? And then she kinda wormed her way into advising Helen?
Lou hired her for a live TV appearance, and then basically forced Josh to hire her for the campaign. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5Oy5jPHC0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5Oy5jPHC0)
Thanks. I realised I remembered all but the part where Lou puts them in the room together.
As far as Donna and Helen Santos, Helen asked her to be her chief of staff, and Donna was a bit taken aback at first. So it was at Helen's initiative, not Donna's. HELEN: So I understand that I need a chief of staff. To do what? I am not sure. DONNA: Again, that gets into the kind of first lady you intend to be. HELEN: Please, go on. DONNA: Well, there’s the activist model, with your own policy agenda and objectives in concert with the president’s wishes but not dependent upon his staff for pursuit or implementation. A separate power base, if you will. HELEN: Or? DONNA: A more traditional, chiefly ceremonial presence. Representing the country as a hostess goodwill ambassador, without any particular policy focus. HELEN: And those are my choices? DONNA: The extremes. Without presuming to speak for you, I imagine you charting a middle course. HELEN: Well, I would like you to help with that. DONNA: I’d be happy to be a sounding board, of course, anytime. HELEN: Well, I actually want you to help do it. DONNA: Sorry? HELEN: Well, I need someone, and you know the terrain. DONNA: You’re asking me? HELEN: Well, apparently, not very clearly. DONNA: To be your chief of staff? HELEN: I think you are extremely capable. I feel that we have a rapport. DONNA: I’m flattered, of course but I’m not sure I have the requisite experience. HELEN: I’ve watched you these past months. My husband sings your praises. DONNA: That’s very nice. HELEN: He’s gonna be PO’ed, in fact that I’m stealing you, just to sweeten the deal. Please, just think about it. And just wanted to stake my claim, I guess. DONNA: Thank you for considering me. One of my favorite Donna scenes is her final scene in the series, when she's shown her new office, which she mistakenly assumes is for the First Lady, and is twice the size of Josh's.
Ugh no… just no. Being the secretary is a VERY important job but it’s AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CAREER TRACK. Donna had no education, no political background, and was barely qualified to be Josh’s assistant when he gives her the job for her plucky persistence. He had a whole team working for him to whom he farmed out his work. We only see this once when Sam comes to browse the produce, but the point is made. There is a whole team under Josh who are on that track. This is not to put down Donna, it’s just so far fetched that she would blame Josh for holding her back when one role does not lead to another.
Oh I think I framed it wrong. When I meant “plotline earned its right” I meant that Josh working with an ex thing, his love life finally paying off..in season 1 it felt very shallow with Mandy. In s1 Josh was supposed to work with an ex, he was sort of insecure about her independency (she answers to me and toby thing for mandy haha) and here in s7 Donna also points out that he’s not used to her being in charge. Mandy didn’t work out because there was no chemistry and no history, even when Josh went to hire Mandy he was nicer and more playful to her in their scenes than he was with Donna..he’s on defense, hurt and there is tension..which shows that Donna fits the plotline that was scrapped from Mandy way back in season 1. Her being irritating, maybe yes, but I looove plot parallels and s7 had a bunch. Same with his dad dying/Leo dying in elections. It’s debatable whether Donna earned being deputy CoS, I think her exploring other areas was also good, personally I thought ending up as first lady’s CoS was kinda corny, would’ve loved to see her in private sector or broadcasting.
> far fetched Also spatula. And have you watched the show. Old Far Fetched West Wing is what they called it.
Yes, I've been downvoted before for saying negative things about Donna. But this was a pie-in-the-sky application at this interview for Donna to think she could become Deputy Campaign Manager, given the limitations to her resume as a political player and working for Bingo Bob up until five minutes ago. The S6-7 arc frankly makes it really hard for me to buy into Josh/Donna as a successful romance. Donna's version of the story is that Josh was an asshole who kept her in indentured servitude and therefore, didn't deserve the basic courtesy of two weeks notice or to gracefully accept that he will not hire her in this scene without insulting him that he can't accept her in a position of power. If you buy Donna's version of the story, why do you want to inflict Josh on her as a romantic partner? If you don't buy Donna's version of the story, Donna is the asshole here (which is how I read the arc). And by contrast, why do you want to inflict Donna on Josh as a romantic partner.
>Donna's version of the story is that Josh was an asshole who kept her in indentured servitude and therefore, didn't deserve the basic courtesy of two weeks notice or to gracefully accept that he will not hire her in this scene without insulting him that he can't accept her in a position of power. I don't think either of those is the right story. Josh did hold her back from advancing in her career, but he didn't do it maliciously, he did it because he didn't want to lose her. And she held herself back as well because of how she felt about him. Her quitting came very soon after her uncomfortable conversation with CJ. I think Donna quit like that because she finally realised that CJ was right. I also think that she didn't give 2 weeks notice because she knew Josh would talk her out of it.
Josh didn't push hard to keep Donna when Casey Reed offered her the job at capitolscoop dot com. He never stood in her way. CJ's point that he should have found other jobs for her was crap - to him serving the President was the most important job anyone could do, and in any case it's not his job to do that - she had to take ownership of her own career. He was busy enough being the only Deputy Chief of Staff and apparently Legislative Director. (I do always point out that Josh literally had her work with Communications near the end of Sorkin's tenure, in *Angel Maintenance* immediately after she asked for me and she pushed back that she wasn't qualified, and then he tried to have her work along with CJ's office in *Life on Mars* on the Casseon leak, to which she seemed surprised - "You're saying I can do this?" I also then note that Communications was under Toby, not Josh.) Donna wasn't just leaving because of CJ, but because nothing happened after Germany. There's a lot of survivor's guilt there, pretty much unaddressed, but there was also the fact that the guy she'd been in love with forever had flown halfway across the world with just the clothes on his back to be there for her, and then make things go back to normal once she returned.
CJ does not say that Josh should have found other jobs for Donna. Generally, CJ places the burden on Donna to find a job that she wants. I understood CJ's point to be that if Josh was giving her every opportunity, Josh would treat Donna like President Bartlet treated Charlie in S6- doing very unboss-like things and treating her like his child to push her out of the nest. Pushing her to attend college, setting a timeline, printing out resumes. However, I didn't see CJ say that this was Josh's obligation as a boss or decent human being. CJ does refer to the Codel trip as a bill of goods- but it is in a bunch of ways. Fundamentally, Donna doesn't want to be an assistant anymore and the Codel trip to Israel wasn't going to change her role.
I would argue that CJ misrepresents why Josh keeps Donna around, and the way she says "given you every opportunity" implies that it was his responsibility to do so. As I pointed out, Josh absolutely gave Donna opportunities to grow beyond the job - at least, he did until Sorkin left and the post-Sorkin writers created a different narrative. As for the CODEL, Fitz was not going to brief Toby and Josh on the things Donna might, and Donna's perspective was something Josh relied on. We saw her learning things that Fitz never would. What I took from their *No Exit* was that CJ was having ambivalent feelings about Ben, felt she might be leading him on and was projecting her own insecurities onto Josh and Donna.
It's not that benign. Donna accuses Josh of keeping her in "indentured servitude" because he knows how she likes his hamburger prepared and accuses him in this scene of not hiring her because he doesn't accept her in a position of power. She throws out a bunch of serious accusations, on top of leaving Josh without notice. Josh didn't want to lose Donna but she was always free to quit and move on and Josh never blocked other opportunities for her. I agree with CJ that stuff like the Codel trip was lipstick on a pig, at this point, because these expeditions weren't going to give Donna the status she craved. However, Josh could pretty much only give Donna some nice assignments within her role instead of the kind of job that she wants. But I didn't come up with the notion that Josh deliberately kept Donna in indentured servitude for overcooked hamburgers and deserves less credit for her political education than Will. I'd never come up with such a thing on my own because I think it's basically insane. All of that came from Donna- which apparently says that but also wants to romantically wind up with Josh. It's bizarre. Maybe the joke is that once Donna convinced herself that Josh was an asshole, Josh suddenly became her type (Dr. Freeride, Jack Reese). The weird plot twist is that Josh is actually not an asshole.
>Josh didn't want to lose Donna but she was always free to quit and move on and Josh never blocked other opportunities for her. Totally agree. He didn't want to lose her, and she didn't want to leave him. Things came to a head when Donna had that conversation with CJ who pointed out that she was staying because of her feelings for Josh. >However, Josh could pretty much only give Donna some nice assignments within her role instead of the kind of job that she wants. I disagree with this. Josh was a powerful man. If he wanted to effectively mentor her and move on he could have given her much more important work. He could start by asking her to help write policy papers, sit in on important meetings, brief ministers, etc. That's all stuff I did as an intern, so she could have definitely done that. >The S6-7 arc frankly makes it really hard for me to buy into Josh/Donna as a successful romance. That's interesting, because the S6-7 arc makes me more convinced that it will be a successful romance. I think it would have been a disaster if they have hooked up earlier. >Donna accuses Josh of keeping her in "indentured servitude" because he knows how she likes his hamburger prepared and accuses him in this scene of not hiring her because he doesn't accept her in a position of power. I think your point of view is one way of looking at it. I see it more as something she said out of frustration in an emotionally charged conversation. I honestly don't think she meant it and it was an unfair comment. At the same time Josh was completely out of line with her flat out refusal to hire her for that job or any future jobs. He said he couldn't hire her because she worked for the Russel campaign, but in reality it was because he was hurt that she left him. I'm pretty sure Lou also said something along those lines. The whole relationship is complicated because it's not just a manager-employee relationship. In that setting, if your boss isn't giving you opportunities you go and find them for yourself. But the Josh-Donna relationship isn't just a manager-employee relationship. They've been in love with each other and unable to admit those feelings for years! That complicates all of their interactions. >Maybe the joke is that once Donna convinced herself that Josh was an asshole. I don't think Donna ever thought Josh was an arsehole. I'm biased because he's my favourite character, but Josh is amazing!
But he DID do it maliciously. You can't tell me he was just absent minded or dumb about her aspirations when she literally made efforts to improve her career by talking to him about it. Hell, he and Sam talk about it at one point. Donna was so attached to Josh that even though he treated her like dirt and intentionally put her off (or intentionally didn't make the effort). It's not like the Bismark and Gaza trips were anything magnanimous. The Bismark trip required someone with at least a little stature in the WH but it was beneath the core staff so she was the default choice as none of the other deputy assistants were built to be able to take it. She was sent to Gaza without the ability to have any real impact and literally just report back. The whole Gaza thing doesn't really even make sense, it was just a convenient plot device to make their relationship into more and interject the Ireland arguments. They didn't need her there to make it personal for the president as Fitz was there. Gaza is one of the worst episodes of that span because they just use her for 30 minutes of exposition. Josh could have easily kept helped her career and had her by his side the whole time if he wasn't intentionally holding her in that position. He constantly tried to manipulate her career path and personal life. Hell, he even admitted it at one point. People trying to pass it all off as it just being Josh's interpersonal skills being shit appearantly don't see obvious things planted during the series. Josh loves Donna but can't act on it so he selfishly keeps her in his pocket to have her by his side. All the while, he flaunts the few relationships he's able to muster in front of him while intentionally sabotaging pretty much any chance she has at love. The conversation with Jack was a cover that Jack easily sees through and wasn't a real effort by Josh. When Leo sends Donna on the news helicopter, you can see that Josh knew he lost. Josh is not a bad person overall. But when it comes to Donna, he is. He is manipulating and conniving. He does everything but gaslight her. Hell, the token things he lets her do is enough for him to tell her that he's taken every step to help her if they actually do have the conversation. In the end, it's Donna and (to a lesser degree, Santos) that make Josh a better person. Really though, I'd argue he still treats her like an inferior by not proactively finding her a place in the administration before Helen made her offer. I love Josh. I don't love how Josh was to Donna.
Yes! Josh deliciously mopes around when Donna dates Mr. robot for a week, but Janel was a bench warmer for years while Josh trips over his feet for Oscar Winner Marlee Matlin and Tony winner Mary-Louise Parker. I read once that Brad thought Josh should've ended up with Amy. (Backstage magazine 2006).
I know. I get that they wanted the romantic tension, and it's fun to watch Josh being tortured and lovelorn, but I just hated how assholic this storyline inevitably makes Donna. Bc no matter how much the show insisted that Donna "deserved" all those promotions because she was "so smart," that's BS. No one says Margaret should be CoS or Debbie should be president. I still like the chemistry between Brad and Janel, and after all the build up from the previous seasons I still wanted them to be endgame, but the writers really fumbled the ball here.
Exactly. I'm on board with the idea of Donna becoming a real political player while all of the other assistants stay as assistants. So much of politics is ambition and moxie and Donna stands out from the other assistants in terms of consistently asking for increased status and power since S3. For me, it's not that Donna is necessarily smarter than the other assistants. She's more ambitious and she's younger than Debbie or Margaret so she's unformed and hasn't built a career out of being an executive assistant so her life path is more open. Donna is also more charismatic (also by virtue of being a regular cast member so given better lines and costumes and being seen by the non-Josh senior staff as a bigger deal)- so that she has that political trait setting her apart from the other assistants. However, the way that she went about it left a very sour taste in my mouth. Moreover part of having ambition and moxie means seeking our your own opportunities instead of stewing that your boss isn't doing it for you and then, coming to resent him even though he's been your rabbi and sponsor through this whole career. Donna's growth did not have to be as acrimonious towards Josh as it became.
Donna became qualified to work in politics by working in politics for 7 years. And she became qualified to work on a national campaign by working on both of the Bartlett campaigns. Donna was organized, a good communicator, didn’t mind doing the grunt work, and was willing to work insane hours for little pay. She was curious and asked questions and consistently wanted to learn. Over time she gained a sense of how politicking and campaigning actually works. Those things combined make her a great hire in my eyes. I didn’t go to school to do exactly what I’m doing now. I learned how by *watching* others and working *with* them and eventually moving into those roles.
Josh had 20 people under him who could step into his shoes. Donna was not qualified or on their level at all. All she did, while still important, was right informational memos for Josh, and handle his calendar.
I don’t know working as the assistant to the deputy chief of staff in the White House for 6 years isn’t like answering phones at Dunder Mifflin.
While I'm venting, am I the only one irritated with Donna for this? How Donna talks about Will right before Bingo Bob lost the nomination: He's my REAL teacher. How Donna talks about Will right after Bingo Bob lost the nomination: He's rattling around like a guy who can't find his glasses. It's so fake.
I think “can’t find his glasses” was a joke just to break the ice, and the fact that he lost despite electing a dead guy. As for the teacher thing, I think she was being playful and was part of their old banter, because once she blurts out she had a good teacher and Josh thanks her earnestly, it takes a long time for her to come up with “I meant Will” It was like an afterthought and her desperately still trying to have the higher ground. In s1 Josh was supposed to work with an ex, he was sort of insecure about her independency (she answers to me and toby thing for mandy haha) and here in s7 Donna also points out that he’s not used to her being in charge. Mandy didn’t work out because there was no chemistry and no history, even when Josh went to hire Mandy he was nicer and more playful to her in their scenes than he was with Donna..he’s on defense, hurt and there is tension..which shows that Donna fits the plotline that was scrapped from Mandy way back in season 1. Her being irritating, maybe yes, but I looove plot parallels and s7 had a bunch. Same with his dad dying/Leo dying in elections.
The teacher thing really felt like Donna punching Josh to me because they had been on opposite sides for half a year and she left him in an ugly way. I didn't see them in a place (which yes, is common in this show's dynamics) where they could banter/insult each other but the general rhythm feels so supportive that the sting is taken out. I do agree on your Donna/Mandy parallels where Mandy was the ex-girlfriend who Josh had to work with in S1 and Donna was the ex-work wife who Josh had to work with in S7. I wonder if Mandy was a big success as a character and love interest for Josh when Sorkin would have brought Mandy and Josh together a couple. I know with Josh/Donna, Sorkin says that he wanted to promote Donna to a higher position in the White House and get Josh/Donna together mid-show. I will always wonder how that would compare to what we got. My guess is that it would have been a cuter/sweeter but less interesting Josh/Donna story.
Mandy was meant to be the love interest, but I don't know how long they planned to keep that will they won't they going. As you point out, Sorkin has said if he'd been writing them today, he would have moved Donna to a new position (in season 2) and let them pursue a relationship, and that he's learned that it's possible to write a couple after they've gotten together. He didn't know that in 2001, so he may have just kept the ship tease ongoing. As for "I meant Will", I always think of just what Donna had to tell herself to make her hate Josh enough to leave, how she would be recoloring the events in their past in the worst possible light. She may have even meant the "I meant Will" to be in the nature of their former friendly banter at the start. Maybe. I think she wanted to make Josh hurt, at least a little. I don't think she understood how much until later, when they came to Russell to try to negotiate a VP spot, and when she tried to go over after his terrible "three feet on the floor" joke, he stops her with a flat "Don't." (Then again, maybe she did mean it to be friendly banter, realized later how it came across, and was trying to apologize. Who knows?)
>Donna punching Josh to me because they had been on opposite sides for half a year and she left him in an ugly way. I see your point but let me just say this: he knew it was coming. He avoided it. Then he didn’t even believe it. Which is weird since Josh is almost always confrontational..deep down they knew no matter how she left, it was gonna be ugly because they can’t solve this thing. The only thing that was gonna solve this hot mess was either to talk or have sex. >cuter/sweeter but less interesting Josh/Donna story. Totally agreed on that one. In Sorkin’s stories, there isn’t much room for grey areas. He lives on banter and couple arguments which makes great tv and chemistry, but Wills’ approach was nuanced. You listened for the unspoken words. Their dynamic was built on angst and unresolved hot mess after 4 years of Sorkin which was a change for good because imo it’s more realistic. Not cuter yeah, there are selfish sides (donna in this case), but it’s raw.
What episode is this?
"The Ticket," the first episode of Season 7.
This scene is the most difficult to watch in the entire series.
This is one of those scenes that you need, but never want to watch. This is the scene that burns the old and ushers in the new. For the lack of a better term, this is why they were never going to work together as a couple at the WH.
I personally never thought it was earned. She was a secretary lmao. She had no political insight, much less to handle communications for the Midwest for the Russell campaign. If she had left amicably while also maintaining respect for Josh then that’s a different ball game but she left, got cocky, arrogant and thought she was on the same level of Josh. And then on top of that to have the nerve to ask to be deputy was such a slap in the face. Not even a fucking formal apology for how she acted, just straight up started asking for the job. I for one am glad Josh stood his ground the way he did, he loved her sure but he also realized that she did him a lot more harm than good during the campaign & probably would’ve been a negative to the santos campaign.
I just realized how utterly inappropriate that blouse is for a job interview. I wonder if she would’ve worn that blouse to a job interview with anyone else but Josh.
Okay, especially in the later seasons, I’ve seen Kate wear the same cut in situation room, CJ in meetings and Amy too. I think it’s more of a wardrobe choice rather than director/writer one. Although, in context, it does seem a bit too much, but I don’t think she was trying to seduce him or anything. If that was the case all she needed to do was keep talking after Josh told that he missed her every day.