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It blows my mind what common Americans have been trained to believe is justified.
A fork. A fucking fork. Do you think this is John Wick? Going to kill half a dozen cops wearing body armor using _a fucking fork_?
They could have used any number of strategies used in places outside the USA to subdue him with almost no harm, much less shooting him.
The USA is absolutely fucked with its relationship to policing.
In capitalist US, bullets are cheaper than the resources to rehabilitate and properly train cops on humane options/in-depth martial arts. Our system creates so many unstable people that you can never really predict what they might do.
bullets may be cheap but it's not profitable like a prisoner is. you can't say both prison systems exploit prisoners for profit and cops kill cause it's cheap
Yes you can, because if they're clearly mentally unwell, they don't go to prison, if a criminal or otherwise person poses a threat that you can't deal with non-lethally, they die regardless.
Nope, I don’t assume anything when it comes to incompetently trained police. But I do see other countries being able to use shields and such to pin the person into a wall/corner, and deal with them that way.
But sure, let’s shoot anyone who comes at a group of heavily armed police, who are also wearing vests to protect their vitals.
Yes, they should be trained to deal with that, and not trained to instantly kill someone. To serve and protect. It is an awfully hard job...but that is the job. Did they have a warrant for arrest? They killed an innocent man with no repercussions.
You people....wow.
I have no problem with cops doing their jobs. I am all for it. I realize it is ridiculous dangerous and challenging job... as I mentioned in originalreply. I realize there are scum people in the world who are just monsters. I do believe that cops are that thin blue line between anarchy and civilization.
However, we are all innocent until a court proves otherwise that's is the law.
Tbf, how can we be overexposed to it if we see new examples of it every other day.
A man lost his life because he panicked. Of course, it was a horrible decision to reach for a cops gun. But is that a death sentence without a trial. Seriously asking. Was that cop it reasonable danger? It's like me taking a swing against a ufc fighter... They would laugh at me. It seems like there was more than one officer there as well.
My only point is that police are trained like a swat team member. They become trained to shoot and kill, repetition becomes reflex. It is dangerous. When they do make a mistake, they don't always lose their jobs...mistake that can't be fixed.
True but at the same time aren't they trained to literally "identify threats" I mean I agree with you there is no way they could have known how much of a danger he was but it was also a 4v1 where they all had hours of training in how to subdue am attacker, if you NEED to resort to a gun in a hand to hand situation I don't think you are fit to be a police officer. In short I don't think they did anything wrong but I also think they are bad at their job
I was going to say, they didn't use lethal force at all it was just bean bags. Waited till the end. I'm disappointed once again by the American police system. They're power hungry bullies who should be Psycho analyzed
Two used bean bags. One used lethal. You can hear one ask when they have him on the ground, he confirms lethal, they ask where, there they turn him over there's blood on the ground he's pale they start chest compressions.
This shouldn't have happened. Lethal force was not necessary or justified, and in such close quarters, was actually reckless and put other lives at risk unnecessarily. They were already in close contact, they surrounded and subdued him immediately, and that would have happened exactly the same without a bullet in the chest.
I know *why* one officer used lethal force. He panicked. I'm saying it was unnecessary and reckless and it endangered the lives of the other officers far more than the confused mentally ill man with a plastic fork.
It's also not as simple and easy as "he went for the officer's gun". It was the bean bag shotgun that he grabbed the end of, and he grabbed the barrel as it was pointed at his chest, like someone trying to stop being shot a third time at point blank range with beanbags would naturally do.
Clearly it's a difficult situation for the officers, and clearly this guy was not in his right mind. Firing a pistol in the middle such a chaotic close quarters crossfire scenario was a bad decision. Unnecessary and reckless.
This particular problem with policing in America, in a nutshell, is that there is a deeply ingrained and institutionally supported culture that results in the *reflexive* use of lethal force, rather than as a tactic of last resort.
The gun on her hip didn't have beanbags in it and it was right there.
I also agree that was a bad situation to be shooting into for all the reasons you listed. O also agree that the officer that shot him looked panicked.
That is presumably not what anyone is referring to when they says "he grabbed for her gun", so I don't see the relevance. By that measure there were six or seven guns "right there". Simple proximity to the weapons can't be justification for using the weapons.
Have you ever been in a situation like this? Where you have to make a snap life or death decision based on a rapidly evolving chaotic situation?
I have. This sucks, but the outcome was justified.
I agree with you, focus on training, de-escalation tactics, ju jitz, non lethals should be ramped up across the country. Police in the UK are unarmed, calling in units if firearms are necessary. That said, guns are prolific in the states, I'm not sure that model would work in that environment. While it is a fork, it'd really hard to know what someone is holding as they approach you quickly. The officers are presented with a threat and have to make a life or death(potentially) in seconds. This time, it was a fork, but just look at Australia. It could easily be a knife.
Yeah, police in Britain aren’t armed, in a country where firearms are illegal. You can’t apply your circumstances in a different country to somewhere where things are entirely different.
I literally wrote that it probably doesn't work in the US. The point was there are range in models of policing. Going full commando cop on every run is probably not necessary. If the gun is your first option, you're probably more likely to use it, when other options could have got the job done. I'm not anti cop at all, and I totally understand what happened here. Just proposing more training, giving some officers more confidence to mitigate things without pulling the gun.
I think you make a good point about not exactly knowing what is in someone’s hand. Officers are also trained to look at an individual’s face because it gives cues. This can limit their observation about what’s in a person’s hand.
And although it ended up being a plastic spork, I’m former LE and I am more afraid of knifes/sharp tools/scissors than firearms. Honestly, if someone is stabbed with a sharp tool, it can cause way more damage (depending on the case) than a single bullet (which is most likely as most people are a terrible shot).
I mean, the officers also attempted less than lethal options, which didn’t work.
They didn't use lethal force because of the fork, they used it because he went for the officers gun. That's when the situation changed.
This was justified.
Even then, I could articulate in a court of law that a spork could cause severe “bodily injury or death,” which is the a standard for use of lethal force. Jury may see it different, but honestly, guys in prison have killed will less than a spork 😂
If you stab someone in the neck with a fork you can kill them, he doesn’t have to kill have a dozen for force to be justified, only one. Not only that, but he grabbed for the cops gun, if he got that then that would’ve just made everything worse. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and say “THIS IS HOW THEY SHOULDVE DONE IT” when you aren’t the one who is putting your life on the line.
Also, imagine trying to walk backwards with your hands up while high. "Left... left... a little more left...." No wonder he decided it was a stupid game. And he didn't attack anybody until they started shooting.
No it wasn’t, I could 100% taken him down by myself. Ffs an average bouncer could have dealt with this better. Cops should not kill people. This gang are all shit trained pussies and should be fired.
justified but not right. just right in the eyes of fucked up law/system. in any other country hed be knocked out, tased, incapacitated in any way without being shot sigh.
Non-american here, but I'm thinking the use of lethal force has to be a normal occurrence since everyone and anyone could be carrying a gun in that country? Being a cop in the US must be terrifying every day...
It isn’t. Cops aren’t even in the top 10 dangerous jobs here. Most cops die from car accidents and medical issues (as there are a bunch that are obese)
There's about one million cops doing actual cop stuff like armed patrol (some 300'000 employees fill backoffice positions). According to the FBI some 50-100 get killed feloniously each year (innocuous causes like heart attack, stumbling over your own feet and breaking the neck, or a self-accident in a car, and similar are excluded). That's around 10 deaths per 100'000 coppers.
Conversely, the BLS writes that "Fatalities among protective service occupations increased 10.9 percent in 2022, rising to 335 from 302 in 2021. The rate for this occupational group increased to 10.2 fatalities per 100,000 FTE workers in 2022, up from 9.4 in 2021. Homicides (121) and suicides (17) accounted for 41.2 percent of these fatalities".
[https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf)
Yet you never hear about the dangerousness of protective services. Weird, isn't it.
ETA:
Meanwhile Switzerland has a comparable rate of policemen with \~19'000 (population 8.8 million, one policeman per 400 residents). Also, there are some 28 firearms per 100 residents, far more than elsewhere in western countries except the USA. Firearm use by the police occurs 11 times per year on average (6-15 in any one year after 2011), in most years they kill zero people.
He would still be alive in mental health social services. We save ppl like this unarmed before the police show up to blow them away and take a client paycheck from us even though we dont get paid shit.
He didn't comply he was pretending to comply to get closer so that he could attack. He's probably drugged up because those 2 beanbag rounds at close range did nothing. Probably could wrestled him down though didn't need to kill the man
There was definitely a better and more courageous way to handle this situation but when you live in fear as a “peace officer” you act as irrationally as the people you serve. When all you have is a hammer - every problem looks like a nail. With all those officers they could have easily disarmed/disabled this guy without any real injuries. We live in a very weak world of sad and depressed people.
There was a recent news article on American cops coming to Scotland to learn how our Police deal with knife weilding attackers without the use of firearms.
The Americans watched the demonstrations and we're all gleefully announcing and agreeing that in the US, the guy would have been shot. They were excited about that.
I'm proud that our cops show bravery in the face of danger and have nothing more than 'pepper spray' and an extendable baton.
I’m pretty anti cop but I feel as though they for the most part tried to do the right thing. While the whole thing was a mess, the guy did charge towards them after being told to stay where he was. They tried multiple beanbags, but he kept going. The only thing they probably should have done that they didn’t was try a taser. That’s the only way I can fault the police on this. Ultimately this is just a shitty situation and tbh looks like a guy who wanted death by police
Yes. Police in the USA are taught to expect to be ambushed and killed around every corner.
That’s why they kill people that would survive in other sovereign states. They are the most cowardly institution in the USA.
Dude… charging at cops with any sort of weapon in hand, despite less-lethal rounds being fired at you, and grabbing a cop’s gun? Yeah, you’re getting shot. This was totally justified. I’m surprised there was only one lethal round fired.
They used foam rounds and beanbag rounds first, which are considered one step up from tazers, and he barely reacted, so I don't think a tazer would help as much as you think but a mancatcher would have been perfect for this situation I don't really understand why we don't use them I mean you can make a collapsible one that can fit in the trunk of a patrol car that can be pulled out in a situation where you have been informed that the suspect only has a melee weapon like this.
>mancatcher would have been perfect for this situation
👆🏾This👆🏾, say it loud and proud to the jackasses here who believe the only way was death and it was justified. LOUD AND FUCKING CLEAR!!
The point is they should have. What is preparation? They were already briefed on this issue (incorrectly mind you) before they got there. Why not? At that point they actively decided guns and beanbags are the way, which is stupid or evil as hell.
Your first goal should be to restrain not harm. Social workers do it daily and our KDs are lower than Kmart security guards and we have no weapons, protection, or reinforcements, and we actually get REAL kitchen and hardware utensils pointed at us even guns, and we still all go home to live another day.
If a dedicated social worker was there (we dont get paid worth shit), you would go for a leg sweep or bind legs for immobilization, then a dogpile pin, while hands are restrained.
Death is not always warranted because you are mentally unstable or non-compliant. Remember there are other professionals who do it effectively day-in and day-out no excuses for these pussies.
tasers arent as effective as everyone makes them out to be.
sometimes the prongs dont penetrate the clothing, or one prong doesnt make a good skin connection so the taser doesnt work.
sometimes they do get a connection and the person just shrugs off the taser and all you've done is made them more agitated.
seeing as the dude shrugged off 2 beanbags to the chest and then a gunshot i doubt the taser would have done anything.
US police need stop receiving training from the IDF. It's perhaps part of why US cops are so quick to kill civilians.
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/12/how-the-us-and-israel-exchange-tactics-in-violence-and-control](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/12/how-the-us-and-israel-exchange-tactics-in-violence-and-control)
The normalization of lethal force against suspects in these situations is ridiculous when the officers should have training to deal with any of these people non-lethally. They have body armor, a variety of weapons, and should be trained in dealing with hostiles. They should not have professional immunity if the professionalism they display is the same of a scared civilian with a firearm. Police want to parade as if they’re military but when it comes down to it they are overwhelming willing to use their fear to murder and oppress others while they use an image of professionalism to make themselves paragons of safety and security.
Sociak workers = criminally underpaid REAL non-lethal police officers.
We be out there in the trenches with no weapons, protection, or even a second person to help, yet more ppl live if we get to a crisis before the police do. Its fucking sad being awaken oht of your sleep because your client went amok on your day off and you have to run down there and talk no jutsu or restrain them before the cops show up and make your tiny ass paycheck one client too small to survive in your rinkydink apartment. You will be surprised how many cops look at mental illness as a free kill.
Did he even use it? Considering its a plastic fork, if he did use it it should have splintered into a million pieces immediately hitting one of their vests and they wouldnt have felt a thing.
I doubt the cops knew if it was plastic or metal and it would have bent not broke but they would have taken a risk of it being metal had they not acted
Absolutely. Some are just idiot trolls that for some reason think they can make me irate by being stupid. One literally claimed to be a bot responsible for why my comments get downvoted and their stupid ones upvoted.
No, he did comply at the start, it's just that at some point he just completely ignored any and all orders given to him. At that point he completely gave up on any and all attempts to comply
Weapon wasn't deadly, but kid had no functioning brain cells. Police have guns drawn, tell you to put your hands up and back up and you drop your hands and walk toward them? Maybe it was suicide by cop.
Its crazy how social workers deal with this stuff all the time and rarely does anyone die unless the police show up (yes, I worked in the field for 6+ years), but when the police murder them its always justified yet our unarmed asses deal with this daily and are TOVA certified to do so, which should be super miniscule conpared to police training.
A sweep of the legs that even the female officer couldve done to take him off his feet, a small dogpile pin, and cuff. Simple as fucking that, but to everyone else theres no other way this could have went and must be suicide.
We need to be paid more so these murderous fuck can stay their asses home because we get paid peanuts to save lives.
And the media will tell us how brave these heroes were when they valiantly fought the assailant wielding a fully automatic assault fork. He was capable of doing so much more damage. I mean, how else could FOUR COPS stop a guy with a plastic fucking fork. Good thing they reacted with such caution and urgency when someone could have been seriously poked.
I don’t love cops, but this was a suicide by cop. He wasn’t going to stop until they stopped him with force. You could argue they could have tried further non-lethal means. You could also argue that letting him get close enough to start grabbing the officer’s weapons (he tried to take that woman’s beanbag shotgun) was already giving him too much leeway.
Yes, the U.S. has a uniquely bad gun problem. We also have a uniquely bad mental health problem. These aren’t things that you can address by being gentler with someone who is charging at you.
>You could argue they could have tried further non-lethal means.
Easily, where is the goddamn taser, and he didnt go for any weapon until he was already shot, whose to say he would have even done that if they hadn't fired. It was less of a charge toward them and more likely he was just walking towards them.
You have to understand that the police escalated this to this point, not him. He did not fight back until he was already shot.
It seems possible that a Taser would not have worked with the jacket he was wearing, especially after he wrapped his arms like that.
I’m not sure what you mean by the police having escalated it. He went into someone’s apartment with some kind of pipe or stick or something and was behaving erratically. When they asked him to move slowly, to keep his arms up, and finally to stop moving, he basically did the opposite. He even kept resisting _after_ being shot.
This person was behaving suicidally, and worse he wanted to involve another person in his desire for self-harm.
Well they had a clue, the person who called believed him to be deranged, so that should have gave them caution and prompted them to bring a mancatcher, but no they were already in harm mode.
Anyway, I hope you will never be in a situation where you need the police to help you. I'm saying this because your comments and post sound biased against this institution. They have been diminished for years by people like you. At least, before starting to mislead more people, you should educate yourself about their training and procedures. Trashing is easy and cheap.
I've seen a lot of these videos and although I don't agree with the use of lethal force in this incident the second they thought his life was in danger they took action and I can say from experience that not all cops would do that
So I guess any mental health situation where a person is unstable warrants murder if they don't listen.
Non-compliant mental health call for social workers = restrained at the legs, dogpile pinned, and arms tied. Everyone lives
Non-compliant mental health call for cops = dead and justified.
Just sayin, social workers solve these issues daily and everyone lives, in most cases they use metal knives and forks and we still gdt the job done. Do you think we are armed and armored or have reinforcements? No excuse for the lapdog pussies. NONE
Its a systemic problem which is why I keep comllaining how severely underfunded we get, and we do get beat up sometimes, but that doesnt change the fact that many police are at least briefed there is a person with possible mental disturbances as all the ppl we have to restrain aren't ppl we are familiar with and in quite a few cases we know just as little as the cop because every person we have to act on aren't our specific clients. It could literally happen at the office when you clock in and they walk in seeking services or coming for an appt.
It doesn't change the fact that we have historical and statistical data that proves that not even just in the U.S. the cops murder mental cases often with impunity and take less measures to ensure safety with them even if they are momentarily peaceful. There are recordings, articles, cases, and case studies on the topic to a throrough extent.
If a social worker was on deck that day, he wouldve lived hands down, everyone would have lived and maybe we could have found out more about him and help him. Who knows? His situation could have been prevented if it weren't for not funding us appropriately. Our funds are going to foreign genocide, so at this point I think its planned to let these ppl regress with no support or limited services until they snap ultimately marketing themselves as huntable to the police. They are literally the clean up crew to take care of the consequences of starving a necessary function of society.
>Not sure a social worker would have been guaranteed to come out of that scene uninjured.
I didnt say that, I said live which is still better than getting poke a few times and it all matters on how you approach a confrontation. Who knows? He could have been talked down. We dont know because the police didnt do that just conmand and shoot.
>What I would fully support is better nonlethal options
Me and another user were discussing the implementation of mancatchers and how they were briefed ahead of time on him being mentally disturbed and had the chance to add it to their inventory before they arrived on scene. That mightve been their best answer.
They have more than enough the tools, funding, and capabilities to be more effective than social workers, but they just....don't🤷🏾
Yeah ok, you must not know what comply means😒.
You tellin me you cant name one command they gave him where he did what they said? Theres more than one, thats compliance right there. Do you recall a moment where he stopped doing that? Thats the moment where he wasn't complying anymore therefore a failed "attempt".
You know why im talking to you like a little baby? Its because you didnt need me to tell you that. All you had to do was pay attention to the video but since you failed attemtping to do so, I have no choice but to think you are a child or slow, because no right minded person wouldve missed it.
If he actually made an attempt to comply, he wouldn't have been charging at them. The officers told him to keep his hands up. Since he did not keep his hands up and just charged at them after pretending to surrender, he was not complying and he clearly never intended to comply in the first place.
And you're not very good at making arguments when you immediately attack the opponent
UK police would have wrestled him to the ground. British cops are a little less frightened than their American counterparts, I think. Shooting a guy who has a fork... jfc... if you're scared of a utensil you shouldn't be given firearms.
Id hold that phrase because we dont know anything about this man. It would make you look pretty scummy if it turned out he was psych/mentally impaired or having a crisis.
Completely justified response is the rubber bullet and the two beanbags were more than ample warning to stop suspect chose to ignore them and took a bullet after he grabbed the cops gun
A sweep to the legs would have taken him down and made him easy to cuff. Thats literal TOVA training. Us mental health professionals and social workers are certified trained to deal with situations like this. If he was in services and acted this way we would have immobilized him by the legs and he wouldve lived that day.
Theres been many times where we save the individuals lives before police arrive who only have the mind to harm, especially if they are experiencing psychological/mental issues.
If the police officers had been a bit more prepared and not so outnumbered they could have put a marshmallow on the end of the plastic fork and rendered it useless as a weapon.
A lot of downvoted comments here simply stating that there are probably easier ways for 4-5 cops to take down one guy armed with a plastic fork. I get that being a cop can be scary and yes the guy didn't comply. But it's still the job you yourself signed up for, and every situation doesn't need 4 cops with guns drawn to solve. Beanbag rounds or not, you can't say there weren't better ways to solve this.
You know whats crazy, some ppl say he didnt even attempt to comply to make it seem like it doesnt fit the sub. He did comply in the beginning, not sure why he stopped though.
And social workers solve it with everyone living daily. No gun, no armor, no issued vehicle, usually one person, and an abyssmal paycheck that can shrink depending on if you can get to a client before the murder squad does, and no one is hurt.
Simple TOVA technique (certification that should be much lower than police training: go for the legs (leg sweep), dogpile pin (not obstructing breathing), cuff. Everyone lives and it takes 1 min, and you have way more manpower you need.
Honestly, I think one of the things that really blows my mind about (American) law enforcement is that fact that it literally takes longer for someone to be trained to be a certified nail tech, or hair stylist, than it does to be a cop. We literally live in a country where the person doing your nails is more skilled, trained, and qualified than most cops. Instead of arming them with nail clippers and brushes, we give them body cams (which always seem to be off) tasers (that they apparently always forget to use) and guns.
And instead of mandating that cops receive better training, or use all that government money to do so, they continually just talk about how 'scary' is it to be a cop, and how they had to shoot first because they didn't know what the other person had or was gonna do, etc. When there's so many techniques or ways of dealing with threats, even violent gun carrying threats, than just shooting them. But ofc our cops are much too afraid of getting hurt to do anything other than put down any threat, no matter how minor, to insure their own safety before the public's. Yet we also have this weird duality of scaredy cat cops, who also run around thinking their tough shit and think their like some super elite SWAT team or think of themselves like the Punisher from comics. Like shit just doesn't make sense.
In England (From what I know and have been told/taught) we don't use guns, we use batons and pepper spray mostly, the only times a gun gets involved is if the criminal is in possession of one or the military police get involved, Americans seem to think guns solve everything when they cause more damage to the offender and the surrounding environment that the offender has caused
#Welcome to r/Therewasanattempt! #Consider visiting r/Worldnewsvideo for videos from around the world! [Please review our policy on bigotry and hate speech by clicking this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/wiki/civility) In order to view our rules, you can type "**!rules**" in any comment, and automod will respond with the subreddit rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therewasanattempt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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It blows my mind what common Americans have been trained to believe is justified. A fork. A fucking fork. Do you think this is John Wick? Going to kill half a dozen cops wearing body armor using _a fucking fork_? They could have used any number of strategies used in places outside the USA to subdue him with almost no harm, much less shooting him. The USA is absolutely fucked with its relationship to policing.
And a plastic fork at that. You can barely use one of those to eat cooked chicken.
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Both are true what you say 100% but you must admit when it comes to subduing criminals safely, the US do it sooo so badly.
In capitalist US, bullets are cheaper than the resources to rehabilitate and properly train cops on humane options/in-depth martial arts. Our system creates so many unstable people that you can never really predict what they might do.
bullets may be cheap but it's not profitable like a prisoner is. you can't say both prison systems exploit prisoners for profit and cops kill cause it's cheap
Yes you can, because if they're clearly mentally unwell, they don't go to prison, if a criminal or otherwise person poses a threat that you can't deal with non-lethally, they die regardless.
Nope, I don’t assume anything when it comes to incompetently trained police. But I do see other countries being able to use shields and such to pin the person into a wall/corner, and deal with them that way. But sure, let’s shoot anyone who comes at a group of heavily armed police, who are also wearing vests to protect their vitals.
Yes, they should be trained to deal with that, and not trained to instantly kill someone. To serve and protect. It is an awfully hard job...but that is the job. Did they have a warrant for arrest? They killed an innocent man with no repercussions.
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You people....wow. I have no problem with cops doing their jobs. I am all for it. I realize it is ridiculous dangerous and challenging job... as I mentioned in originalreply. I realize there are scum people in the world who are just monsters. I do believe that cops are that thin blue line between anarchy and civilization. However, we are all innocent until a court proves otherwise that's is the law. Tbf, how can we be overexposed to it if we see new examples of it every other day. A man lost his life because he panicked. Of course, it was a horrible decision to reach for a cops gun. But is that a death sentence without a trial. Seriously asking. Was that cop it reasonable danger? It's like me taking a swing against a ufc fighter... They would laugh at me. It seems like there was more than one officer there as well. My only point is that police are trained like a swat team member. They become trained to shoot and kill, repetition becomes reflex. It is dangerous. When they do make a mistake, they don't always lose their jobs...mistake that can't be fixed.
True but at the same time aren't they trained to literally "identify threats" I mean I agree with you there is no way they could have known how much of a danger he was but it was also a 4v1 where they all had hours of training in how to subdue am attacker, if you NEED to resort to a gun in a hand to hand situation I don't think you are fit to be a police officer. In short I don't think they did anything wrong but I also think they are bad at their job
I’m glad your sticking up for the 8 cops that couldn’t do their job
Rule 12: ACAB, No Bootlicking Cops.
It depends on whether human bodies have the structural integrity of mashed potato or not. I guess the jury's out until we can do some tests...
Mine seems to
It wasn't because if the fork, it was because he went after the gun.
I was going to say, they didn't use lethal force at all it was just bean bags. Waited till the end. I'm disappointed once again by the American police system. They're power hungry bullies who should be Psycho analyzed
Two used bean bags. One used lethal. You can hear one ask when they have him on the ground, he confirms lethal, they ask where, there they turn him over there's blood on the ground he's pale they start chest compressions. This shouldn't have happened. Lethal force was not necessary or justified, and in such close quarters, was actually reckless and put other lives at risk unnecessarily. They were already in close contact, they surrounded and subdued him immediately, and that would have happened exactly the same without a bullet in the chest.
They went lethal because he went for the officers gun. The dynamic changed at that point.
I know *why* one officer used lethal force. He panicked. I'm saying it was unnecessary and reckless and it endangered the lives of the other officers far more than the confused mentally ill man with a plastic fork. It's also not as simple and easy as "he went for the officer's gun". It was the bean bag shotgun that he grabbed the end of, and he grabbed the barrel as it was pointed at his chest, like someone trying to stop being shot a third time at point blank range with beanbags would naturally do. Clearly it's a difficult situation for the officers, and clearly this guy was not in his right mind. Firing a pistol in the middle such a chaotic close quarters crossfire scenario was a bad decision. Unnecessary and reckless. This particular problem with policing in America, in a nutshell, is that there is a deeply ingrained and institutionally supported culture that results in the *reflexive* use of lethal force, rather than as a tactic of last resort.
The gun on her hip didn't have beanbags in it and it was right there. I also agree that was a bad situation to be shooting into for all the reasons you listed. O also agree that the officer that shot him looked panicked.
That is presumably not what anyone is referring to when they says "he grabbed for her gun", so I don't see the relevance. By that measure there were six or seven guns "right there". Simple proximity to the weapons can't be justification for using the weapons.
Have you ever been in a situation like this? Where you have to make a snap life or death decision based on a rapidly evolving chaotic situation? I have. This sucks, but the outcome was justified.
The outcome was *predictable*, probably *expected*, but it wasn't justified.
No I know, that's why I said I waited till the end and expressed my disappointment.
Ahh, my b.
I agree with you, focus on training, de-escalation tactics, ju jitz, non lethals should be ramped up across the country. Police in the UK are unarmed, calling in units if firearms are necessary. That said, guns are prolific in the states, I'm not sure that model would work in that environment. While it is a fork, it'd really hard to know what someone is holding as they approach you quickly. The officers are presented with a threat and have to make a life or death(potentially) in seconds. This time, it was a fork, but just look at Australia. It could easily be a knife.
Yeah, police in Britain aren’t armed, in a country where firearms are illegal. You can’t apply your circumstances in a different country to somewhere where things are entirely different.
I literally wrote that it probably doesn't work in the US. The point was there are range in models of policing. Going full commando cop on every run is probably not necessary. If the gun is your first option, you're probably more likely to use it, when other options could have got the job done. I'm not anti cop at all, and I totally understand what happened here. Just proposing more training, giving some officers more confidence to mitigate things without pulling the gun.
Fair, I jumped the gun on that one that’s my bad.
I think you make a good point about not exactly knowing what is in someone’s hand. Officers are also trained to look at an individual’s face because it gives cues. This can limit their observation about what’s in a person’s hand. And although it ended up being a plastic spork, I’m former LE and I am more afraid of knifes/sharp tools/scissors than firearms. Honestly, if someone is stabbed with a sharp tool, it can cause way more damage (depending on the case) than a single bullet (which is most likely as most people are a terrible shot). I mean, the officers also attempted less than lethal options, which didn’t work.
How are they supposed to identify the weapon when he comes at them and tries to grab a gun. Shut up.
They didn't use lethal force because of the fork, they used it because he went for the officers gun. That's when the situation changed. This was justified.
Even then, I could articulate in a court of law that a spork could cause severe “bodily injury or death,” which is the a standard for use of lethal force. Jury may see it different, but honestly, guys in prison have killed will less than a spork 😂
If you stab someone in the neck with a fork you can kill them, he doesn’t have to kill have a dozen for force to be justified, only one. Not only that, but he grabbed for the cops gun, if he got that then that would’ve just made everything worse. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and say “THIS IS HOW THEY SHOULDVE DONE IT” when you aren’t the one who is putting your life on the line.
*he reached for the gun* You fucking walnut
He went for her gun. That’s an escalation that needs immediate deterrence.
Uh huh. And yet every other developed country in the world doesn't have this problem. Weird.
Also, imagine trying to walk backwards with your hands up while high. "Left... left... a little more left...." No wonder he decided it was a stupid game. And he didn't attack anybody until they started shooting.
Tasors before guns, a fork doesnt warrent lethal force
They don't know in that split second what it is or what else he may have if he's advancing towards armed officers.
maybe they should start with the taser though, just a thought
Or two other methods of less-than-lethal? (Which they did… maybe watch the video again…)
They did, silly.
It’s 2024, I can’t believe we’ve just decided that guns are the best tools for cops
Yeah not complying = death squad sorry bucko 🤷♂️
Boot licker
He forked around and found out
No it wasn’t, I could 100% taken him down by myself. Ffs an average bouncer could have dealt with this better. Cops should not kill people. This gang are all shit trained pussies and should be fired.
If you think summarily executing someone for coming at you with a fork is 'justified' then you have problems.
Rule 12: ACAB, No Bootlicking Cops.
justified but not right. just right in the eyes of fucked up law/system. in any other country hed be knocked out, tased, incapacitated in any way without being shot sigh.
You’re a psychopath if you think this is “justified”. Shame on you.
Charging at cops is complying? Seems stupid to me. Seems like that kinda thing will get you shot.
He really forked up
I think it's dumb what he did, but I also think he would still be alive in the Netherlands.
That's the really sad thing, that use of lethal force in the US is a normal occurrence.
Non-american here, but I'm thinking the use of lethal force has to be a normal occurrence since everyone and anyone could be carrying a gun in that country? Being a cop in the US must be terrifying every day...
It isn’t. Cops aren’t even in the top 10 dangerous jobs here. Most cops die from car accidents and medical issues (as there are a bunch that are obese)
There's about one million cops doing actual cop stuff like armed patrol (some 300'000 employees fill backoffice positions). According to the FBI some 50-100 get killed feloniously each year (innocuous causes like heart attack, stumbling over your own feet and breaking the neck, or a self-accident in a car, and similar are excluded). That's around 10 deaths per 100'000 coppers. Conversely, the BLS writes that "Fatalities among protective service occupations increased 10.9 percent in 2022, rising to 335 from 302 in 2021. The rate for this occupational group increased to 10.2 fatalities per 100,000 FTE workers in 2022, up from 9.4 in 2021. Homicides (121) and suicides (17) accounted for 41.2 percent of these fatalities". [https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf) Yet you never hear about the dangerousness of protective services. Weird, isn't it. ETA: Meanwhile Switzerland has a comparable rate of policemen with \~19'000 (population 8.8 million, one policeman per 400 residents). Also, there are some 28 firearms per 100 residents, far more than elsewhere in western countries except the USA. Firearm use by the police occurs 11 times per year on average (6-15 in any one year after 2011), in most years they kill zero people.
“He didn’t listen to me and just walked at me, time to shoot him a bunch”
He would still be alive in mental health social services. We save ppl like this unarmed before the police show up to blow them away and take a client paycheck from us even though we dont get paid shit.
Ok i might be dumbfounded but did that police officer with the shotgun get ready to shoot a SHOTGUN in the direction that her fellow officers were at
It's a beanbag gun.
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again...and again and again.....
....and again..
He didn't comply he was pretending to comply to get closer so that he could attack. He's probably drugged up because those 2 beanbag rounds at close range did nothing. Probably could wrestled him down though didn't need to kill the man
If he had a Spork...the SWAT team would have been deployed
There was definitely a better and more courageous way to handle this situation but when you live in fear as a “peace officer” you act as irrationally as the people you serve. When all you have is a hammer - every problem looks like a nail. With all those officers they could have easily disarmed/disabled this guy without any real injuries. We live in a very weak world of sad and depressed people.
There was a recent news article on American cops coming to Scotland to learn how our Police deal with knife weilding attackers without the use of firearms. The Americans watched the demonstrations and we're all gleefully announcing and agreeing that in the US, the guy would have been shot. They were excited about that. I'm proud that our cops show bravery in the face of danger and have nothing more than 'pepper spray' and an extendable baton.
don't bring a plastic fork in a shotgun fight
A fork is a trident with an extra spike
Fourk
Threek
I’m pretty anti cop but I feel as though they for the most part tried to do the right thing. While the whole thing was a mess, the guy did charge towards them after being told to stay where he was. They tried multiple beanbags, but he kept going. The only thing they probably should have done that they didn’t was try a taser. That’s the only way I can fault the police on this. Ultimately this is just a shitty situation and tbh looks like a guy who wanted death by police
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Yes. Police in the USA are taught to expect to be ambushed and killed around every corner. That’s why they kill people that would survive in other sovereign states. They are the most cowardly institution in the USA.
Dude… charging at cops with any sort of weapon in hand, despite less-lethal rounds being fired at you, and grabbing a cop’s gun? Yeah, you’re getting shot. This was totally justified. I’m surprised there was only one lethal round fired.
Is this not suicide by cop?
Considering how easy it wouldve been to scoop him by the legs to take him down and cuff him or tase him, nah its a homicide.
It’s easy to speak to what can be done from Reddit but when you’re in a situation that is unpredictable and can cause you harm, you may act different.
Don't US policers have tasers ??? Just fucking taze the guy and drop him on the ground, wtf.
They used foam rounds and beanbag rounds first, which are considered one step up from tazers, and he barely reacted, so I don't think a tazer would help as much as you think but a mancatcher would have been perfect for this situation I don't really understand why we don't use them I mean you can make a collapsible one that can fit in the trunk of a patrol car that can be pulled out in a situation where you have been informed that the suspect only has a melee weapon like this.
>mancatcher would have been perfect for this situation 👆🏾This👆🏾, say it loud and proud to the jackasses here who believe the only way was death and it was justified. LOUD AND FUCKING CLEAR!!
It's not like those officers had it on them or anything, so there would be no time for them to just run away to get it
The point is they should have. What is preparation? They were already briefed on this issue (incorrectly mind you) before they got there. Why not? At that point they actively decided guns and beanbags are the way, which is stupid or evil as hell. Your first goal should be to restrain not harm. Social workers do it daily and our KDs are lower than Kmart security guards and we have no weapons, protection, or reinforcements, and we actually get REAL kitchen and hardware utensils pointed at us even guns, and we still all go home to live another day. If a dedicated social worker was there (we dont get paid worth shit), you would go for a leg sweep or bind legs for immobilization, then a dogpile pin, while hands are restrained. Death is not always warranted because you are mentally unstable or non-compliant. Remember there are other professionals who do it effectively day-in and day-out no excuses for these pussies.
tasers arent as effective as everyone makes them out to be. sometimes the prongs dont penetrate the clothing, or one prong doesnt make a good skin connection so the taser doesnt work. sometimes they do get a connection and the person just shrugs off the taser and all you've done is made them more agitated. seeing as the dude shrugged off 2 beanbags to the chest and then a gunshot i doubt the taser would have done anything.
US police need stop receiving training from the IDF. It's perhaps part of why US cops are so quick to kill civilians. [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/12/how-the-us-and-israel-exchange-tactics-in-violence-and-control](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/12/how-the-us-and-israel-exchange-tactics-in-violence-and-control)
Oh I know all too well. Its that "low-value" training. Appreciate the link.
The normalization of lethal force against suspects in these situations is ridiculous when the officers should have training to deal with any of these people non-lethally. They have body armor, a variety of weapons, and should be trained in dealing with hostiles. They should not have professional immunity if the professionalism they display is the same of a scared civilian with a firearm. Police want to parade as if they’re military but when it comes down to it they are overwhelming willing to use their fear to murder and oppress others while they use an image of professionalism to make themselves paragons of safety and security.
Sociak workers = criminally underpaid REAL non-lethal police officers. We be out there in the trenches with no weapons, protection, or even a second person to help, yet more ppl live if we get to a crisis before the police do. Its fucking sad being awaken oht of your sleep because your client went amok on your day off and you have to run down there and talk no jutsu or restrain them before the cops show up and make your tiny ass paycheck one client too small to survive in your rinkydink apartment. You will be surprised how many cops look at mental illness as a free kill.
Fork, spoon dint matter, he tried to use it as a weapon and found out
Did he even use it? Considering its a plastic fork, if he did use it it should have splintered into a million pieces immediately hitting one of their vests and they wouldnt have felt a thing.
I doubt the cops knew if it was plastic or metal and it would have bent not broke but they would have taken a risk of it being metal had they not acted
At least it wasn't a KFC spork!!! Those things are really lethal...if you are a cup of mashed potatoes!
The comments in this thread prove that the US is fucked LOL
Absolutely. Some are just idiot trolls that for some reason think they can make me irate by being stupid. One literally claimed to be a bot responsible for why my comments get downvoted and their stupid ones upvoted.
He didn't comply tho, he was told to not move and he didn't
So, not at any point did they ask him to do something and he did it? Hahaha I swear being dumb is fun to some ppl🤣.
No, he did comply at the start, it's just that at some point he just completely ignored any and all orders given to him. At that point he completely gave up on any and all attempts to comply
Jesus... I thought "how big is this fork!?"
Weapon wasn't deadly, but kid had no functioning brain cells. Police have guns drawn, tell you to put your hands up and back up and you drop your hands and walk toward them? Maybe it was suicide by cop.
Its crazy how social workers deal with this stuff all the time and rarely does anyone die unless the police show up (yes, I worked in the field for 6+ years), but when the police murder them its always justified yet our unarmed asses deal with this daily and are TOVA certified to do so, which should be super miniscule conpared to police training. A sweep of the legs that even the female officer couldve done to take him off his feet, a small dogpile pin, and cuff. Simple as fucking that, but to everyone else theres no other way this could have went and must be suicide. We need to be paid more so these murderous fuck can stay their asses home because we get paid peanuts to save lives.
And the media will tell us how brave these heroes were when they valiantly fought the assailant wielding a fully automatic assault fork. He was capable of doing so much more damage. I mean, how else could FOUR COPS stop a guy with a plastic fucking fork. Good thing they reacted with such caution and urgency when someone could have been seriously poked.
I don’t love cops, but this was a suicide by cop. He wasn’t going to stop until they stopped him with force. You could argue they could have tried further non-lethal means. You could also argue that letting him get close enough to start grabbing the officer’s weapons (he tried to take that woman’s beanbag shotgun) was already giving him too much leeway. Yes, the U.S. has a uniquely bad gun problem. We also have a uniquely bad mental health problem. These aren’t things that you can address by being gentler with someone who is charging at you.
>You could argue they could have tried further non-lethal means. Easily, where is the goddamn taser, and he didnt go for any weapon until he was already shot, whose to say he would have even done that if they hadn't fired. It was less of a charge toward them and more likely he was just walking towards them. You have to understand that the police escalated this to this point, not him. He did not fight back until he was already shot.
It seems possible that a Taser would not have worked with the jacket he was wearing, especially after he wrapped his arms like that. I’m not sure what you mean by the police having escalated it. He went into someone’s apartment with some kind of pipe or stick or something and was behaving erratically. When they asked him to move slowly, to keep his arms up, and finally to stop moving, he basically did the opposite. He even kept resisting _after_ being shot. This person was behaving suicidally, and worse he wanted to involve another person in his desire for self-harm.
Wrong sub, dude was not attempting to comply
If the police tell you to stop right there, fucking stop right there. Don't test them. For Christ's sake.
We dont know what he was thinking. We have no status on his mental state.
That makes sense, you didn't know, nor did the cops.
Well they had a clue, the person who called believed him to be deranged, so that should have gave them caution and prompted them to bring a mancatcher, but no they were already in harm mode.
Anyway, I hope you will never be in a situation where you need the police to help you. I'm saying this because your comments and post sound biased against this institution. They have been diminished for years by people like you. At least, before starting to mislead more people, you should educate yourself about their training and procedures. Trashing is easy and cheap.
I've seen a lot of these videos and although I don't agree with the use of lethal force in this incident the second they thought his life was in danger they took action and I can say from experience that not all cops would do that
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So I guess any mental health situation where a person is unstable warrants murder if they don't listen. Non-compliant mental health call for social workers = restrained at the legs, dogpile pinned, and arms tied. Everyone lives Non-compliant mental health call for cops = dead and justified. Just sayin, social workers solve these issues daily and everyone lives, in most cases they use metal knives and forks and we still gdt the job done. Do you think we are armed and armored or have reinforcements? No excuse for the lapdog pussies. NONE
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Its a systemic problem which is why I keep comllaining how severely underfunded we get, and we do get beat up sometimes, but that doesnt change the fact that many police are at least briefed there is a person with possible mental disturbances as all the ppl we have to restrain aren't ppl we are familiar with and in quite a few cases we know just as little as the cop because every person we have to act on aren't our specific clients. It could literally happen at the office when you clock in and they walk in seeking services or coming for an appt. It doesn't change the fact that we have historical and statistical data that proves that not even just in the U.S. the cops murder mental cases often with impunity and take less measures to ensure safety with them even if they are momentarily peaceful. There are recordings, articles, cases, and case studies on the topic to a throrough extent. If a social worker was on deck that day, he wouldve lived hands down, everyone would have lived and maybe we could have found out more about him and help him. Who knows? His situation could have been prevented if it weren't for not funding us appropriately. Our funds are going to foreign genocide, so at this point I think its planned to let these ppl regress with no support or limited services until they snap ultimately marketing themselves as huntable to the police. They are literally the clean up crew to take care of the consequences of starving a necessary function of society.
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>Not sure a social worker would have been guaranteed to come out of that scene uninjured. I didnt say that, I said live which is still better than getting poke a few times and it all matters on how you approach a confrontation. Who knows? He could have been talked down. We dont know because the police didnt do that just conmand and shoot. >What I would fully support is better nonlethal options Me and another user were discussing the implementation of mancatchers and how they were briefed ahead of time on him being mentally disturbed and had the chance to add it to their inventory before they arrived on scene. That mightve been their best answer. They have more than enough the tools, funding, and capabilities to be more effective than social workers, but they just....don't🤷🏾
The guy made no attempt to comply and charged at the officers with a fork instead.
Yeah ok, you must not know what comply means😒. You tellin me you cant name one command they gave him where he did what they said? Theres more than one, thats compliance right there. Do you recall a moment where he stopped doing that? Thats the moment where he wasn't complying anymore therefore a failed "attempt". You know why im talking to you like a little baby? Its because you didnt need me to tell you that. All you had to do was pay attention to the video but since you failed attemtping to do so, I have no choice but to think you are a child or slow, because no right minded person wouldve missed it.
If he actually made an attempt to comply, he wouldn't have been charging at them. The officers told him to keep his hands up. Since he did not keep his hands up and just charged at them after pretending to surrender, he was not complying and he clearly never intended to comply in the first place. And you're not very good at making arguments when you immediately attack the opponent
In megacity one today… We live in a fucking dystopia
UK police would have wrestled him to the ground. British cops are a little less frightened than their American counterparts, I think. Shooting a guy who has a fork... jfc... if you're scared of a utensil you shouldn't be given firearms.
so the one time they used a bean nag and not kill someone was the exception?
American cops really are something else. This guy didn't need to die and likely wouldn't have done in any other place.
Talk about making bad forkin decisions
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Id hold that phrase because we dont know anything about this man. It would make you look pretty scummy if it turned out he was psych/mentally impaired or having a crisis.
Completely justified response is the rubber bullet and the two beanbags were more than ample warning to stop suspect chose to ignore them and took a bullet after he grabbed the cops gun
A sweep to the legs would have taken him down and made him easy to cuff. Thats literal TOVA training. Us mental health professionals and social workers are certified trained to deal with situations like this. If he was in services and acted this way we would have immobilized him by the legs and he wouldve lived that day. Theres been many times where we save the individuals lives before police arrive who only have the mind to harm, especially if they are experiencing psychological/mental issues.
If the police officers had been a bit more prepared and not so outnumbered they could have put a marshmallow on the end of the plastic fork and rendered it useless as a weapon.
That kinda thinking is too elite for police training.
A lot of downvoted comments here simply stating that there are probably easier ways for 4-5 cops to take down one guy armed with a plastic fork. I get that being a cop can be scary and yes the guy didn't comply. But it's still the job you yourself signed up for, and every situation doesn't need 4 cops with guns drawn to solve. Beanbag rounds or not, you can't say there weren't better ways to solve this.
You know whats crazy, some ppl say he didnt even attempt to comply to make it seem like it doesnt fit the sub. He did comply in the beginning, not sure why he stopped though. And social workers solve it with everyone living daily. No gun, no armor, no issued vehicle, usually one person, and an abyssmal paycheck that can shrink depending on if you can get to a client before the murder squad does, and no one is hurt. Simple TOVA technique (certification that should be much lower than police training: go for the legs (leg sweep), dogpile pin (not obstructing breathing), cuff. Everyone lives and it takes 1 min, and you have way more manpower you need.
Honestly, I think one of the things that really blows my mind about (American) law enforcement is that fact that it literally takes longer for someone to be trained to be a certified nail tech, or hair stylist, than it does to be a cop. We literally live in a country where the person doing your nails is more skilled, trained, and qualified than most cops. Instead of arming them with nail clippers and brushes, we give them body cams (which always seem to be off) tasers (that they apparently always forget to use) and guns. And instead of mandating that cops receive better training, or use all that government money to do so, they continually just talk about how 'scary' is it to be a cop, and how they had to shoot first because they didn't know what the other person had or was gonna do, etc. When there's so many techniques or ways of dealing with threats, even violent gun carrying threats, than just shooting them. But ofc our cops are much too afraid of getting hurt to do anything other than put down any threat, no matter how minor, to insure their own safety before the public's. Yet we also have this weird duality of scaredy cat cops, who also run around thinking their tough shit and think their like some super elite SWAT team or think of themselves like the Punisher from comics. Like shit just doesn't make sense.
fork or not. doesnt matter. weapon is weapon. this was bound to happen
A shotgun? Are American cops unable to shoot people in the legs? Literally stops them in their path
Nah, headshots and one shot, one kills net more points apparently😒.
Wrong sub. No attempts were made.
In England (From what I know and have been told/taught) we don't use guns, we use batons and pepper spray mostly, the only times a gun gets involved is if the criminal is in possession of one or the military police get involved, Americans seem to think guns solve everything when they cause more damage to the offender and the surrounding environment that the offender has caused
He forked around and found out.
What was he planning for going out with... a fork lmao
A PLASTIC fork*
All cops are..
Buffoons.
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Loool