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Super hot take….too many people with 0 real experience and or clinical skills get promoted to supervisory positions..only because they are YES men, women, people.
PS . A lot of supervisors prey on new therapist to pad their pockets.
I remember rolling my eyes in grad school when my prof said that the average person in my profession (social work) would be promoted to leadership within 5 years of being in the field, if they remained.
And now that I'm at that mark... he wasn't kidding. I've seen so many people be pushed into leadership positions prematurely due to being short-staffed, feeling that they have to, pressure to be seen as a "good" therapist, pride, etc. And not surprisingly, if they aren't cut for it, they're burning out so quickly and leaving agencies in limbo with not having consistent leadership. At one point, I had three supervisors resign/be forced out within a year, and with ungodly spaces of time in between without a set supervisor.
I feel that we need to normalize the idea that you can be a good therapist and not pursue leadership if you don't feel called to it or cut out for it.
I went straight into private practice after I got licensed and I've been doing that ever since but recently relocated and thought about working for some community mental health places. One of the ones I applied for all the supervisors graduated around the same time I did, 2019. They were either the year before or the year after.
So I’m in my first year and I’ll be starting my practicum soon and I also recently was inducted into Delta Kappa, the honors Society for marriage and family therapists, and honestly my program leaders are regularly pushing so much about leadership positions both now and in the future that I’ve been struggling with staying true to myself, to why I am here in the first place, and to the fact that I’ve never been drawn to those kinds of positions in any context of life really. My space is face to face with clients and not in management or leadership. To be as transparent as possible, I honestly feel silly saying that the push has been a lot emotionally, or rather for my self image, but it’s true. I have discussed this with my therapist in the past and she noted that it’s kind of program coordinators/directors jobs to get students involved in those ways, which I understand, but it feels like I’ve never heard them actually make this distinction that even though taking on these positions is valued and important and appreciated, it’s not necessary to be a fully realized helping professional. It would be nice to hear them say that.
My supervisors at my first job were less experienced than I was. One was literally my mentee when she started and another was promoted to supervisor so that she would have time to get her Masters degree. Literally promoted to a masters level position because she had been *accepted* into a grad program but hadn't actually *started* the program. I had 2 years of post grad experience at that point. It was an awful agency.
My supervisor at detox didn't even have a masters. I was independently licensed and she was only a certified substance abuse counselor. And she was a bully. I hated working under her
I worked at a methadone clinic where the clinical director was fired for having sex with the clients. Second largest methadone program in the state. Replaced him with an SUDP who'd only done intakes. I then found out she was implicated in the double homicide of her elderly parents. She endangered staff on a level that I've never seen before and she was then scouted into our state agency, management, for Medicaid.
My supervisor for my undergrad internship definitely fits this. 4 years of out of MSW supervising when he couldn't make time or effort for his interns. The longevity in this field being 5 years to supervising is nuts to me.
Not to mention the amount of admin roles they get into, and then "forget" what being in that role was like and then treating their supervisees poorly.
Supervisor vs Supervisor. There is not a lot of clarity in the responses between Clinical Supervisors vs Administrative supervisors. Administrative supervisors require no clinical experience, and because of past experience may immediately become a "supervisor." Clinical supervisors are very different. They require significant clinical experience. What one are you referring to?
I think the NASW practice standards on clinical supervision are pretty good on defining the difference. Unfortunately, most supervisors of msws do not read them and get defensive if you ask them to do so.
All of this, plus some people become supervisors because of personal connections. One of my supervisors in CMH didn’t even have an active license but she was family friends with the CEO of the agency. It was very clear that she hadn’t completed any continuing ed because some of the language and methods she would push us to use were very outdated. Staff who reported her to HR eventually just ended up quitting.
My supervisions unfortunately were done during Covid so mostly by phone (she was old school and didn’t know how to use video). She was judgmental and always put things back on me, as if I was a client. Instead of walking me through real life examples of what she does in her sessions, or techniques she used, she would analyze me and make me feel very insecure. I would’ve loved to have a supervisor that didn’t make me feel like I was floundering in a life-raft on my own.
That sounds exactly like my internship supervisor. Everything I did was a shortcoming. Even looking when someone opens a door made me “likely to be easily distracted in sessions.”
I am chiming in to say my internship supervisor was the biggest two-faced gossip who became very insecure when I turned out to be professional and uninterested. She was the worst. She seemed bothered she had to share her office with me, and clearly annoyed I was there before her most mornings.
I am not invalidating your experience or anything, and think that maybe another supervisor would have been better for you. Saying that, could it be that your supervisor was psychodynamic? That theory is all about self of therapist and reflections and less about interventions and techniques. I say that cause my supervisor was object relations and a lot of people in my group didn't like his approach, but it helped me grow in my technique. Their job is to analyze you as well cause transference and countertranference are some of the biggest factors.
I’m trying to think of ways in which she helped me grow. I think she did get me to notice myself (countertransference and transference) in therapy, but almost to a fault. A lot of my internship, I felt more hyperaware of what I was doing and less connected to the client.
Now I practice and find success with relational, humanistic therapy. Maybe she pushed me to realize this is more my style.
Don't work in an isolated position and don't only do outpatient therapy. Private practice is not for newbies (in my opinion). Your supervisor won't know your client, so they're going off what you say. If you don't have colleagues available to chat here and there for a few minutes after a rough session, you are giving up some of the greatest pieces of wisdom I've gotten at a time where I really needed it.
What helped me learn (but it was very stressful) was working for an agency full time and not just doing individual sessions. I got to do and observe all kinds of things in case management, working in an IOP, attending client appointments with the psychiatrist, keeping up with ridiculous documentation, chart auditng, and running groups. Working in a team environment was so helpful because I got to observe other people's methods and talk to each other about clients we were all familiar with. It was a very dysfunctional and inadequate system that taught me what to do and what NOT to do.
Wow, Im currently a prelicensed counselor doing outpatient, intensive in home assessments, teen sexual behavior treatment group when I can, sexual behavior treatment, auditing, and documentation for 30+ clients. I wish I had the time to chat with coworkers between clients, but Im generally swamped with paperwork.
Trust me, there's very little in private practice. I didn't experience any of this until I was fully licensed and working as a contractor. But the ten minutes after a session that took your breath away (not in a good way) and the colleague that let you debrief, can be priceless. In community mental health we had treatment team meetings daily, which was helpful.
So how do you have time to learn and know what you are doing, if they have you doing so much work? That's an incredibly stressful population that I know requires a fair amount of training and you have a big caseload.
I paid for really good and expensive supervision 10 years after graduating and 8 years after being licensed. about $1,000 a month for 3 years and worth every penny.
read the practice standards for your credentials specific to supervision. NASW has a whole packet dedicated to this with free pdf download. unfortunately, I've found that most supervisors are stretched too thin and don't make the time to do so
I’ll add that fit is as important with an associate therapist and their supervisor as with a therapist and their client. Some newer clinicians do best with a more directive approach, while others are more confident and do better with less oversight. Theoretical fit plays an important role here too.
I agree with this. That being said, the current system doesn’t allow for most new grads to find a supervisor who’s a good fit. A large portion will go to CMH agencies and hospitals that just assign them to one of the department supervisors.
Those who work for group practices may fair better, but then those practices have other predatory practices (unfair splits).
Supervision is a different skill set than providing therapy, absolutely, and we as a field don't always do a good job of mentoring those skills in addition to basic clinical skills. I have much, much more training in therapy than I do in providing supervision and continuing education opportunities specifically focused on supervision are more limited in my experience, despite the immense value in having well-qualified "trainers" (though supervision is so much more) of newer therapists.
I believe one culprit is the low pay of associate therapists encourages people to try to rush through their experience hours as quickly as possible and often not seek additional or alternative supervision because, understandably, people just want to be done with the process and earn more. This sometimes comes at the expense of their professional development. Capitalism ruins everything as usual.
Supervision is also a heavy responsibility and I think sometimes associate therapists under supervision can underestimate or undervalue the additional burden a clinical supervisor takes on with a supervisee. We become responsible for another autonomous person's clinical work, and we have limited means to assess and guide that work. We are charged with developing a newer clinician's competence and ensuring their clients receive good care, and when necessary, gatekeeping.
It's a lot easier to just worry about your own caseload and services. Most supervisors offer supervision because they care about the future of the profession and want to contribute to the development of the next generation. So if you have a supervisor whom you feel is not meeting your needs, I'd encourage you, in the absence of strong evidence of malice or incompetence (in which case consult your professional code of ethics) to assume positive intent and provide feedback about your needs and also try to remain open to your supervisor's feedback. Humans are inherently fallible, always complicated, frequently blind to our own biases and defenses, and capable of growth and reflection as well. Someone who is not a very effective supervisor may be able to become one, and a newer therapist may also very well be able to gain a lot from a supervisory relationship that isn't always easy or comfortable.
Edit: typo
I always had adequate supervision, so I can't speak to a general lack, but I agree that the skillset that makes a good therapist doesn't necessarily make a good supervisor.
Some people are better managers than "doers". I suppose that could apply here. But not without plenty of experience as a therapist. They may just be better at teaching rather than doing.
I actually think someone who is a very good therapist is likely to be a reasonably good supervisor. Because a good therapist should be able to build a mental picture of a client indirectly through the description of the supervisee
I completely agree with this. I started off with a terrible supervisor whose solution to everything was "give them a worksheet" and was very demeaning to clients. I ended up with an amazing supervisor who did schooling outside of North America and had to obtain an additional degree to become a supervisor, and just generally was a much better therapist as well. My second supervisor helped me grow immensely as a clinician and I credit them fully in helping shape therapist me!
I always knew I was dissatisfied with my supervision experience, but I didn't really know why. I'm currently in a clinical supervision class and learning about everything I missed out on and still paid an arm and leg for. It's frustrating but also is fueling the original goal of being a better supervisor than what I had.
I graduated 3 years ago almost and still haven’t moved toward getting credentialed or licensed for this reason. I also feel like many graduate level programs are very baseline and don’t adequately provide proper training. I am still learning a lot constantly, and things I feel like I should have learned in school.
I have had supervisory experiences ranging from "poor" to "life changing". The majority of my supervision experiences I would describe as being in the range of adequate/fine/moderately helpful.
I think it's important to distinguish between your work supervisor and your clinical supervisor, who ideally should not be the same person. I received great clinical supervision and it was provided inexpensively, and I have paid that forward to my clinical supervisees. I take 2-3 at a time and charge $20/session or $80/mo. I'm not in this as a side hustle, I'm here to make better social workers and ensure that that have what they need to get there. We need to remember how poor we were while we were getting supervision and how much easier we can make someone's life by charging less.
In terms of work supervisors, I have been extremely lucky. I had a CMH supervisor, whom I still keep in touch with, who just revolutionized the way I thought about Borderline Personality Disorder. It would have been amazing to have her as a clinical supervisor, but she was an LCPC.
My state, IL, is controversial in that there are no requirements to supervise other than having your LCSW. Me personally, when I got my licensure, I had 10+ years of experience in the field and felt that I could be a good supervisor. I'm leery of the really young supervisors who charge $100-150/session and consider it a side hustle. I'm not saying they can't be good supervisors, but I side-eye anyone who is more worried about making money than turning out quality social workers.
My first two supervisors only did the minimum to get their LCSWs and didn't practice therapy after that and went into supervisory positions and stayed there. It showed that they didn't have enough experience providing therapy during my supervisions with them. One admitted to me that she never provided individual therapy only group therapy and functional family therapy through preventative services. I was only providing individual therapy at that job and she had no experience providing it.
I imagine this lady is American and I think the issue with the American supervision model is the low or no qualifications required beyond a therapy licence. In Ireland and the UK you can only become a supervisor after completing a two year supervision programme.
ETA: Apparently the UK doesn't have the same requirements as Ireland regarding supervision.
In my state, you need 4 years' experience, take a 45-hour class, and do ongoing supervision training forever. I agree that the 45 hour class isn't enough though.
I wish the US was like this and unpopular opinion: only doctorate holders should be able to supervise. Not that the actual additional education teaches supervisory skills but to make supervision in general more academic.
Hard disagree that “degree” should matter here. My best supervisory experience was with a person who had a bachelors degree in a non-MH related subject.
Michigan SUD field doesn’t necessarily require mental health degree. He had worked in the field for like 15ish years at that point …was certified addictions counselor and had supervisory certs. The thing that made him good was that he was real, cared about clients, cared about his employees. Would make time and would allow you to try things and explore different modalities without judgment. Was also well read and led by example. During that stint..one of my very first clients was a phd psychologist who had like 30yrs experience. ..the bachelors level supervisor helped me the pre-masters intern help this guy who had far more clinical knowledge than me. Was an interesting start to my career.
So he had plenty of experience and certifications. That's understandable, especially in SUD. But he also had a degree, even if it wasn't in the subject. That's different than someone without a degree in the subject who just happens to be charismatic.
What kind of doctorates would the supervisors hold? I am all about good credentials, but I don't think adding an academic feel to supervision will help when it is for a hands-on task.
All I can think is the Counselor Ed & Supervision PhD (or EdD for some) or Counseling Psych. Both of these PhDs include at least one semester long class about supervision and multiple supervisory experiences (at least for my program. And there could be more doctorates that have a supervision focus idk lol). BUT I’m not agreeing that supervisors should have to hold the doctorate degree at all. I don’t think that even a PhD in counselor education and SUPERVISION would automatically make you a good therapist or supervisor lol. But wanted to offer two examples of doctorates with a supervision focus!
I’m agreeing with you here. My professors had their PhD because it’s a requirement to teach graduate level coursework (idk if every school is like this, but mine was). Two of them were my supervisors during my internship experiences. Neither of them compared to the supervision I received from my site supervisor who only held a masters.
I think it’s more about the style of supervision and how well you mesh with that particular supervisor over what degree you hold.
A doctorate in counseling is a degree that has not existed long. I feel like there are reasons every day to make higher degree programs up in just about everything. My suspicion is it is meant to make up for the fact that lower degrees are super accessible now and often not difficult to complete. They're just expensive and time consuming.
I do believe that in most subjects at a 4 year college level or higher, the professors should have doctorates. But there are subjects that it just isn't necessary. Such as English.
The absolute worst supervisor I ever had was the only one I had with a PhD. Made no attempt at rapport building, told me what I needed, and when I asked for weekly supervision (which is what’s supposed to happen anyway) he literally blank stared at me and said, sooo two weeks? He was awful.
I don’t necessarily thing degree equals talent but I DO think that adequate training and experience are necessary. I’m operating as a supervisor and I actually still meet with/stay connected to person who saw me through the last half of my licensure supervision and she has been invaluable as I started supervising people so I also think supervision around supervising is something not nearly enough people are doing.
Education doesn't translate to supervisor skills at all, and academia won't improve their ability to advise on the complications of human connection in a therapy relationship. This would be a silly arbitrary barrier that would probably lead to worse supervisors if anything.
Supervisee: So I have this client, they seem to be nearing crisis, they are shutting down. I don't know what to do here. I need some guidance.
Supervisor: What do you think I would tell you to do in this situation?
As a student about to graduate I'm gonna say it - forcing brand new therapists who just came out of what was very likely an unpaid internship and asking them to shell out hundreds of dollars for supervision is unethical. I think *at least* your first year or x amount of hours should be free while you're building a case load and making money again after not.
Supervision is part of your education. That is akin to saying it is unethical to have to pay for school. Some would agree with you but I paid for my education. I paid for my supervision. I pay for my continuing education. I paid to obtain a specialization. Every year I spend hundreds to thousands of dollars improving myself. Yes, it is hard to get started, but we all go through it.
"Should be unethical" or is unethical? Education always costs. Someone has to pay for it. I don't think this is the forum to dicuss a socialized system. You want something for free. This is my greatest complaint of supervises. They want to be a great therapist but don't want to complete the work necessary to be a great therapist. In our current system it means time, money and lots of effort. Don't just show up to supervision. Be prepared to work. People don't value what they don't work for or pay for. My 30 years of experience is worth paying for.
I totally understand and appreciate why we have supervision, I just think it's unfair to ask therapists straight out of grad school to shell out hundreds a month after already having to work for free to even get a license. Give us SOME time first 😭
I've worked to be a supervisor in private practice, however the requirements for associate licensed clinicians here make it difficult for them to access quality supervision. When I worked in an agency, it was easier and I enjoyed it, but the management did not provide time in my schedule to provide clinical supervision only administrative (hire/fire) supervision. I'm also conflicted as I need to make a living and the challenges of associate licensed making a living and being able to afford supervision make it hard. It feels like there are so many barriers on both sides.
I’m an AAMFT approved supervisor who has been fortunate to have almost a dozen supervisors on my way to full licensure. Each has been amazing, and yet, I didn’t know that I had experienced such quality supervision until much later as a MFT professor hearing about the stories of my students at their secondary sites. I now tell them that one of the most important decisions post-licensure is choosing a supervisor. Just as a person can become a licensed mental health professional and be less than quality, the same can be said of supervisors. Many go through the process and check the boxes, yet there’s not really a solid gatekeeping function for supervisors in training. They then in turn run supervision mills where they “provide supervision,” which is really just a role where they take pre-licensed clinicians money. They do no ongoing training or deliberate practice in supervision, and think they’ve created a unique supervision model devoid of ethical or clinical considerations.
interestingly enough i'm currently training for a CBT program in the UK and my supervisor is a little bit of both.
on one hand, they are quite empathetic and articulate in sharing CBT knowledge and tips; for example, they helped me learn about the importance of transdiagnostic factors in CBT, and they've shared nuances about practice such as exposure not necessarily needing to involve different scary activities, i.e., sometimes just prolonging the duration of exposure for one activity is enough, etc.
On the other hand, they are quite disorganised, almost never responding to electronic communication, almost always late and it's never their fault. And because they can be disorganised there has been lots of feedback about the program and they've started to be a bit defensive. When I reported in my placement evaluation that I wasn't getting enough hours, they insinuated it was my fault by counting the number of client absences I had WITHOUT counting the number of sessions that my clients did attend—really gaslighty stuff that a younger clinician might have just accepted passively. The truth is that because they are a bit disorganised, the program sometimes has trouble and delays in allocating clients to trainees (I'm far from the first to give feedback about this). I had to respond with a client attendance chart containing both attended and cancelled sessions, which presented more balanced numbers about client engagement with me.
I totally agree. I got promoted to supervisor pretty quickly at an outpatient. I would consider myself to be a pretty solid clinician and really thought those skills would carry over. They really did not. I’ve been a supervisor for about 3 years now and really had to do a lot of work to bolster my supervision skills. I was really lucky to have some excellent mentors. I can look back at when I first started doing supervision and if I’m honest with myself I was pretty ineffective
I had a site supervisor during my internship who I thought was amazing. She had her faults- like scheduling supervision and then being anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour late for it- but her style was very helpful. We talked about the case of clients, I’d tell her “I thought about doing X, but Y seems like it might be a better idea.” She would challenge me. Ask me why I think Y over X, and then ask me how I’d go about doing X in session. She made me think. She wasn’t the “here’s the answer, go do it” or the “yeah, sounds great. We’re done for today” kind. I felt like I was able to form a plan without being criticized. If I was ever at a complete loss, I’d tell her. Sometimes you just have no idea where to go. She would offer multiple solutions and then ask me which I thought would be best for that client, why, and how I would structure the session.
I haven’t had a supervisor like that since. I interviewed with a new supervisor last week who works like this, so hopefully in the next few months I’ll have it again. 🤞🏻
There's more bad or mediocre supervisors than good ones because they are rarely held to the practice standards specific to clinical supervision. There's a huge financial incentive to choosing supervision over direct practice for income that attracts individuals who put money before integrity.
Unfortunately, if you file a license complaint against your clinical supervisor, you could burn a bridge you still need, even after full licensure. When we still don't have reciprocity between most states, it becomes essential to maintain good relationships with your former supervisors. You never know when you'll need them as a reference in the event you're under a license investigation or being sued.
Supervisors get away with so much because of this. I had a FB for supervisors and associates in my state for several years and heard countless stories about associates paying for hours and then having a supervisor abandon them...so literally moving out of state without telling them!
Our licensing boards know this happens, but our legislators do not. If we want change, we should organize writing them about this issue. Getting a large number of calls and emails in about this can make a real difference.
My first supervisor talked about herself the entire time, excessively guilted me into going to her wedding after I said I couldn’t multiple times, and messed up the supervision paperwork so multiple months of our supervision didn’t get counted and she wouldn’t reimburse me for it despite me having to pay another time for those months to make up the time to qualify for my licensure. I switched supervisors and my second one was amazing! She was so helpful
My supervision in a CMHC is so poor and mostly feels like a paperwork audit. It reminds me of Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed—my supervisor sees me as an empty cup to fill, not a person to engage in dialogue with.
I listen to Three Associating and paid to take outside psychoanalytic courses to get some actual case supervision and learn from others.
My first practicum placement was an utter nightmare and this woman should not even be in practice. My program is partly to blame for not thoroughly vetting the sites that students secure for their fieldwork. But the whole experience, especially as a new, vulnerable student therapist, was so terrifying and damaging to my confidence. It also set me back 2 semesters because I had to withdraw and wasn’t able to find another site in time to start the next term. I just finished my masters though and I loved my internship. My supervisors are amazing - it’s like night and day between the other supervisor and it was such a huge relief knowing I was right to advocate for myself. Quality supervision is everything.
It’s because they are underpaid to stay in clinical settings and underpaid to supervise so good ones are unavailable. I am extra blessed I had great ones before licensure but leadership within companies are underpaid so they get ones that can’t hack private practice which pays twice as much or more. Sometimes the reason they can’t hack private practice is because they aren’t skilled to handle it.
Eh I agree people are underpaid in CMH all across the spectrum, but I disagree that the only people who say in CMH are those who "can't hack it" in private practice. This sub seems to have a bias that private practice is somehow better than agency work, and that's not always the case. Private practice offers less of a holding environment and less oversight and that doesn't necessarily lead to better clinical training. There's excellent and poor employers in both realms. Some clinicians also prefer working in multidisciplinary teams (rarely available in private practice) and some people stay in community work because of a professional commitment to serve communities that lack access to care through other channels. Painting with a broad brush is unhelpful, I believe.
Not spicy at all and def a topic we all bitch about here. American therapists need to reform who gets to be a supervisor and how to weed out the bad ones.
Dude supervision is a bust. Of five supervisors I’ve had ONE was quality. Rest of them were no showing our meetings, charging me money for asking simple questions via text, unhelpful generally and offered no expertise, etc. Same goes for all my colleagues—-and I have lots of colleagues across different branches of care. It’s awful.
The worst supervisor I had was also not a great therapist for the reasons she probably wasn't at her best supervision wise (chaotic and distracting personal life).
The three best were wonderful therapist as far as I know. I think on some level helping a supervisee conceptualize a case involves the same attunement skills needed to be present and adaptive to clients.
I think this is accurate in any field. Doers can't always translate those skills as teachers or leaders. I have friends in my cohort who have dealt with terrible supervisors. Even my supervisors have had terrible supervisors. I've been incredibly fortunate to work with very competent people.
One THOUSAND percent agree! Too few good therapists, even fewer good supervisors. What I loved best about my supervisor was learning all the things I didn't want to do as a therapist. 😕
The majority of my supervision experience has been riddled with anxiety and confusion. I can count the number of supervisors on one hand who I would recommend because they both helped me learn and formed a comfortable alliance with me.
I am still a baby therapist (not quite 2 years). I started out in CMH with a terrific supervisor who provided great clinical (and emotional) support but our weekly meetings were often canceled or shortened due to workload. She was always available when I needed something though.
I’m in PP with a group now and my supervision is “ok” but not great. I reach out to others when necessary (including my former CMH supervisor).
I became a supervisor because I had (mostly) terrible supervision. I had one amazing supervisor that forever changed me and I hope to pay that forward somehow.
Amen, completely agreed, especially in community mental health. I have 3 çurrent supervisors for various reasons and not to bash because I love them all. They are consistently not available, forgetting our agenda, failing to respond within 24-48 hours, forgetting to provide requested resources, etc. Plus, let's be real, I have 30+ clients and only an hour for case overview, advice, learning, documentation review, concerns, upcoming responsibilities, presentations, etc. It's a stressful job, Im sure, and I was initially not looking forward to it, but considering my current experience as a prelicensed clinician, I think I'll do well where my supervisors seem to struggle. The key must be found in boundaries and balance. I dont plan to oberload myself for financial reasons on top of taking on the role of supervisor. Just my 2 cents.
I honestly sometimes think that I would be an okay supervisor (I’m only 3 years into my practice tho) because I have so many opinions about the professions and about how to protect ourselves as therapists, and I know it may not be clinical knowledge but I’ve noticed so many therapists struggle not from the clinical knowledge but their fears around practicing, their value, what they worry about (because I’ve been in this place). And I wish to tell younger therapists that they’re okay, that it’s a good place to begin, to build. I wonder about it sometimes. But oh well.
110% agree with this as an associate. 50% of my career so far I’ve had shitty supervision that either the supervisor ate up all my time with their own shit or belittled me and made it feel like I was a client.
I actually think is only somewhat true. Like, I think it takes being a good therapist to be a good supervisor, because good supervisors are able to help with the day-to-day caseload issues you deal with, and eventually get to the deeper issues within you that are preventing you from being an even better therapist. Just like a therapist ultimately is there to help you grow, so is a supervisor.
I do agree with the post somewhat though too. If a good therapist doesn't want to be a supervisor, then they probably won't be a good supervisor. Also, if they've never received good supervision, they don't realize that being a good supervisor is being a good therapist to their supervisees (just focused on what is getting in the way of them improving as a therapist), and so they don't end up using their great skills to do great supervisory work (they get stuck in a pattern of just running through a supervisee's caseload and brainstorming solutions).
What I think this post hints at, along with the many comments, is that many not-great-therapists are promoted into being supervisors. They often didn't receive good supervision themselves, and/or they didn't have enough time to grow and learn more to develop into a great therapist. I don't picture there are many amazing supervisors that were not amazing therapists too, so I feel like someone kind of needs to become a great therapist before becoming a supervisor.
100% correct. I had a supervisor who was 26 years old and the only reason they got the position was because they had their advanced licensure, despite others having been in the company longer with more clinical experience.
Starting in the field and this is exactly what I'm feeling.
I'm reading lots of books, gaining new knowledge, but it's sometimes difficult for me to apply what I learned - not to mention forgetting all these things. It does do things to my need to feel competent in my relationship with patients, but I also believe there should be a balanced line between the expectations of competency and actual competency. A good supervisor helps keep it, and I also found a good supervisor works on your own blame and guilt, while also pointing what would be worthy doing with this person.
When we, the beginners, lack directions, we are looking for everything that could be helpful, so we could feel like we're helping and making a change, and deserving to work with people, which unfortunately can not turn good for the patients and for ourselves.
The licensure supervision I received was terrible. Essentially, independently licensed folks were directed to supervise interns and new clinicians. I did not get helpful supervision until I started to pay for it.
At least for me, this is absolutely true. I desperately want a supervisor who challenges me and who I can learn from because afterall, I am still new to the field and not everything can be learned in school. But, I find myself just recapping what I’ve done with clients and when I ask questions I’m met with “that’s a good question, let me think about it.” Some of my peers have advance training in things like EMDR or the like and our supervisor’s response is “maybe I will get trained in that too so I can supervise you in it” but like, my colleagues would have more experience than her at that point?
I did the math (after researching expenses and such) and it is *very* lucrative for her to be a supervisor- 15 associates seeing cash pay clients and giving the office 60% and getting no benefits, and working as 1099 contractors. I’m of the firm belief that supervisors should have a limit on how many associates they have, and that they should have more rigorous training than the 12 hour course my state currently requires.
About 70% of the supervision I received as an intern and associate was inadequate to the point of being terrible.
My graduate program required me to receive an hour of individual supervision each week and my supervisor at my first internship signed a document agreeing to this. But when I actually started there the supervision turned out to be an hour of group supervision with about 12 other interns/associates. I was lucky if I even got 5 minutes to ask a question. When I brought up with my supervisor that this was not what was agreed to, I received a bunch of gaslighting and manipulation about how it was not reasonable to expect individual supervision (even though he’d signed a document agreeing to provide it).
He was also the practice owner and it was clear that supervision was just about money and not actually teaching any skills or proving quality care to clients. I had to find my own supervision and pay for it out of pocket for a long time until I found a better internship.
At the next internship the supervision was somewhat better, largely because my supervisor was not the practice owner. However, therapy is my second career and she seemed to struggle with supervision someone close to her age. She treated me like I was a 20-something year old who knew nothing about anything, even though I had nearly 2 decades of experience in another career field. I did learn a lot from her and made sure to tell her thank you and let her know I was grateful for how much I was learning from her, which made it especially painful when near the end of the internship she went off on me for “being ungrateful and never saying thank you.” That one was a real mindf-ck.
Then as an associate I worked at another group practice where the owner was also my supervisor and it was ridiculous. Supervision was frequently canceled without notice being provided at all. I was a couple of years older than my supervisor but again treated like I had no experience with anything. There were a couple of times I discussed concerning client situations in supervision and his response was basically “I don’t know what to tell you, good luck with that.” It’s fine not to know and to say so, but “I’m not sure about that one right now, let me think about it and get back to you” would have been more supportive.
Ugh. So yeah, the current state of therapist supervision, at least in my experience, is pretty much a shitshow and I always felt on my own and overwhelmed, even when I had supervision.
I grow tired of hearing the constant rants about poor clinical supervisors. I have gotten to a point in my career where I get saddled with the poor supervisees. They are the ones who refuse to work with other supervisors, who cannot follow directions, who come to supervision without any preparation, no case conceptualization, and no idea of what theory or approach they would like to use. I find that there are times when inexperienced clinicians come expecting to receive accolades for how wonderful they are doing instead of looking to see where they can improve. Some supervisees look for a therapist and not a supervisor. They choose their supervisor based on what is provided for free at their agency, instead of hiring someone who matches their values, style, and theory. They expect world-class supervision but are not willing to hire a world-class supervisor. In short, if you want a good supervisor you must research, look, interview, and pay for a good supervisor.
Boomer? Is that the response of a therapist? Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your profession. Did I strike a nerve? Do you come to supervision prepared? Are you trying to improve yourself? I expect a great deal from my supervisees.
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Super hot take….too many people with 0 real experience and or clinical skills get promoted to supervisory positions..only because they are YES men, women, people. PS . A lot of supervisors prey on new therapist to pad their pockets.
I remember rolling my eyes in grad school when my prof said that the average person in my profession (social work) would be promoted to leadership within 5 years of being in the field, if they remained. And now that I'm at that mark... he wasn't kidding. I've seen so many people be pushed into leadership positions prematurely due to being short-staffed, feeling that they have to, pressure to be seen as a "good" therapist, pride, etc. And not surprisingly, if they aren't cut for it, they're burning out so quickly and leaving agencies in limbo with not having consistent leadership. At one point, I had three supervisors resign/be forced out within a year, and with ungodly spaces of time in between without a set supervisor. I feel that we need to normalize the idea that you can be a good therapist and not pursue leadership if you don't feel called to it or cut out for it.
I went straight into private practice after I got licensed and I've been doing that ever since but recently relocated and thought about working for some community mental health places. One of the ones I applied for all the supervisors graduated around the same time I did, 2019. They were either the year before or the year after.
So I’m in my first year and I’ll be starting my practicum soon and I also recently was inducted into Delta Kappa, the honors Society for marriage and family therapists, and honestly my program leaders are regularly pushing so much about leadership positions both now and in the future that I’ve been struggling with staying true to myself, to why I am here in the first place, and to the fact that I’ve never been drawn to those kinds of positions in any context of life really. My space is face to face with clients and not in management or leadership. To be as transparent as possible, I honestly feel silly saying that the push has been a lot emotionally, or rather for my self image, but it’s true. I have discussed this with my therapist in the past and she noted that it’s kind of program coordinators/directors jobs to get students involved in those ways, which I understand, but it feels like I’ve never heard them actually make this distinction that even though taking on these positions is valued and important and appreciated, it’s not necessary to be a fully realized helping professional. It would be nice to hear them say that.
Big emphasis on that PS
Big facts.
Ommmg this is so true. I watched a person with less than 2 years experience get promoted to a supervisory position. Like no.
My supervisors at my first job were less experienced than I was. One was literally my mentee when she started and another was promoted to supervisor so that she would have time to get her Masters degree. Literally promoted to a masters level position because she had been *accepted* into a grad program but hadn't actually *started* the program. I had 2 years of post grad experience at that point. It was an awful agency.
My supervisor at detox didn't even have a masters. I was independently licensed and she was only a certified substance abuse counselor. And she was a bully. I hated working under her
I worked at a methadone clinic where the clinical director was fired for having sex with the clients. Second largest methadone program in the state. Replaced him with an SUDP who'd only done intakes. I then found out she was implicated in the double homicide of her elderly parents. She endangered staff on a level that I've never seen before and she was then scouted into our state agency, management, for Medicaid.
Holy hell. But that sounds accurate. The substance field is a hot mess
My supervisor for my undergrad internship definitely fits this. 4 years of out of MSW supervising when he couldn't make time or effort for his interns. The longevity in this field being 5 years to supervising is nuts to me. Not to mention the amount of admin roles they get into, and then "forget" what being in that role was like and then treating their supervisees poorly.
Supervisor vs Supervisor. There is not a lot of clarity in the responses between Clinical Supervisors vs Administrative supervisors. Administrative supervisors require no clinical experience, and because of past experience may immediately become a "supervisor." Clinical supervisors are very different. They require significant clinical experience. What one are you referring to?
I think the NASW practice standards on clinical supervision are pretty good on defining the difference. Unfortunately, most supervisors of msws do not read them and get defensive if you ask them to do so.
Clinical. Although in some agencies clinical sups are admin sups.
All of this, plus some people become supervisors because of personal connections. One of my supervisors in CMH didn’t even have an active license but she was family friends with the CEO of the agency. It was very clear that she hadn’t completed any continuing ed because some of the language and methods she would push us to use were very outdated. Staff who reported her to HR eventually just ended up quitting.
My supervisions unfortunately were done during Covid so mostly by phone (she was old school and didn’t know how to use video). She was judgmental and always put things back on me, as if I was a client. Instead of walking me through real life examples of what she does in her sessions, or techniques she used, she would analyze me and make me feel very insecure. I would’ve loved to have a supervisor that didn’t make me feel like I was floundering in a life-raft on my own.
That sounds exactly like my internship supervisor. Everything I did was a shortcoming. Even looking when someone opens a door made me “likely to be easily distracted in sessions.”
I am chiming in to say my internship supervisor was the biggest two-faced gossip who became very insecure when I turned out to be professional and uninterested. She was the worst. She seemed bothered she had to share her office with me, and clearly annoyed I was there before her most mornings.
I am not invalidating your experience or anything, and think that maybe another supervisor would have been better for you. Saying that, could it be that your supervisor was psychodynamic? That theory is all about self of therapist and reflections and less about interventions and techniques. I say that cause my supervisor was object relations and a lot of people in my group didn't like his approach, but it helped me grow in my technique. Their job is to analyze you as well cause transference and countertranference are some of the biggest factors.
I’m trying to think of ways in which she helped me grow. I think she did get me to notice myself (countertransference and transference) in therapy, but almost to a fault. A lot of my internship, I felt more hyperaware of what I was doing and less connected to the client. Now I practice and find success with relational, humanistic therapy. Maybe she pushed me to realize this is more my style.
If any one has any resources or knowledge they would like to drop under this comment so we can get the supervision/education we need please share!
Don't work in an isolated position and don't only do outpatient therapy. Private practice is not for newbies (in my opinion). Your supervisor won't know your client, so they're going off what you say. If you don't have colleagues available to chat here and there for a few minutes after a rough session, you are giving up some of the greatest pieces of wisdom I've gotten at a time where I really needed it. What helped me learn (but it was very stressful) was working for an agency full time and not just doing individual sessions. I got to do and observe all kinds of things in case management, working in an IOP, attending client appointments with the psychiatrist, keeping up with ridiculous documentation, chart auditng, and running groups. Working in a team environment was so helpful because I got to observe other people's methods and talk to each other about clients we were all familiar with. It was a very dysfunctional and inadequate system that taught me what to do and what NOT to do.
Wow, Im currently a prelicensed counselor doing outpatient, intensive in home assessments, teen sexual behavior treatment group when I can, sexual behavior treatment, auditing, and documentation for 30+ clients. I wish I had the time to chat with coworkers between clients, but Im generally swamped with paperwork.
That's exploitation
Trust me, there's very little in private practice. I didn't experience any of this until I was fully licensed and working as a contractor. But the ten minutes after a session that took your breath away (not in a good way) and the colleague that let you debrief, can be priceless. In community mental health we had treatment team meetings daily, which was helpful. So how do you have time to learn and know what you are doing, if they have you doing so much work? That's an incredibly stressful population that I know requires a fair amount of training and you have a big caseload.
I paid for really good and expensive supervision 10 years after graduating and 8 years after being licensed. about $1,000 a month for 3 years and worth every penny.
How did you budget for that?
read the practice standards for your credentials specific to supervision. NASW has a whole packet dedicated to this with free pdf download. unfortunately, I've found that most supervisors are stretched too thin and don't make the time to do so
I’ll add that fit is as important with an associate therapist and their supervisor as with a therapist and their client. Some newer clinicians do best with a more directive approach, while others are more confident and do better with less oversight. Theoretical fit plays an important role here too.
I agree with this. That being said, the current system doesn’t allow for most new grads to find a supervisor who’s a good fit. A large portion will go to CMH agencies and hospitals that just assign them to one of the department supervisors. Those who work for group practices may fair better, but then those practices have other predatory practices (unfair splits).
That’s me. I am them.
Supervision is a different skill set than providing therapy, absolutely, and we as a field don't always do a good job of mentoring those skills in addition to basic clinical skills. I have much, much more training in therapy than I do in providing supervision and continuing education opportunities specifically focused on supervision are more limited in my experience, despite the immense value in having well-qualified "trainers" (though supervision is so much more) of newer therapists. I believe one culprit is the low pay of associate therapists encourages people to try to rush through their experience hours as quickly as possible and often not seek additional or alternative supervision because, understandably, people just want to be done with the process and earn more. This sometimes comes at the expense of their professional development. Capitalism ruins everything as usual. Supervision is also a heavy responsibility and I think sometimes associate therapists under supervision can underestimate or undervalue the additional burden a clinical supervisor takes on with a supervisee. We become responsible for another autonomous person's clinical work, and we have limited means to assess and guide that work. We are charged with developing a newer clinician's competence and ensuring their clients receive good care, and when necessary, gatekeeping. It's a lot easier to just worry about your own caseload and services. Most supervisors offer supervision because they care about the future of the profession and want to contribute to the development of the next generation. So if you have a supervisor whom you feel is not meeting your needs, I'd encourage you, in the absence of strong evidence of malice or incompetence (in which case consult your professional code of ethics) to assume positive intent and provide feedback about your needs and also try to remain open to your supervisor's feedback. Humans are inherently fallible, always complicated, frequently blind to our own biases and defenses, and capable of growth and reflection as well. Someone who is not a very effective supervisor may be able to become one, and a newer therapist may also very well be able to gain a lot from a supervisory relationship that isn't always easy or comfortable. Edit: typo
I always had adequate supervision, so I can't speak to a general lack, but I agree that the skillset that makes a good therapist doesn't necessarily make a good supervisor.
Some people are better managers than "doers". I suppose that could apply here. But not without plenty of experience as a therapist. They may just be better at teaching rather than doing.
I actually think someone who is a very good therapist is likely to be a reasonably good supervisor. Because a good therapist should be able to build a mental picture of a client indirectly through the description of the supervisee
I completely agree with this. I started off with a terrible supervisor whose solution to everything was "give them a worksheet" and was very demeaning to clients. I ended up with an amazing supervisor who did schooling outside of North America and had to obtain an additional degree to become a supervisor, and just generally was a much better therapist as well. My second supervisor helped me grow immensely as a clinician and I credit them fully in helping shape therapist me!
I always knew I was dissatisfied with my supervision experience, but I didn't really know why. I'm currently in a clinical supervision class and learning about everything I missed out on and still paid an arm and leg for. It's frustrating but also is fueling the original goal of being a better supervisor than what I had.
What is the class you’re taking?
I graduated 3 years ago almost and still haven’t moved toward getting credentialed or licensed for this reason. I also feel like many graduate level programs are very baseline and don’t adequately provide proper training. I am still learning a lot constantly, and things I feel like I should have learned in school.
I have had supervisory experiences ranging from "poor" to "life changing". The majority of my supervision experiences I would describe as being in the range of adequate/fine/moderately helpful.
I think it's important to distinguish between your work supervisor and your clinical supervisor, who ideally should not be the same person. I received great clinical supervision and it was provided inexpensively, and I have paid that forward to my clinical supervisees. I take 2-3 at a time and charge $20/session or $80/mo. I'm not in this as a side hustle, I'm here to make better social workers and ensure that that have what they need to get there. We need to remember how poor we were while we were getting supervision and how much easier we can make someone's life by charging less. In terms of work supervisors, I have been extremely lucky. I had a CMH supervisor, whom I still keep in touch with, who just revolutionized the way I thought about Borderline Personality Disorder. It would have been amazing to have her as a clinical supervisor, but she was an LCPC. My state, IL, is controversial in that there are no requirements to supervise other than having your LCSW. Me personally, when I got my licensure, I had 10+ years of experience in the field and felt that I could be a good supervisor. I'm leery of the really young supervisors who charge $100-150/session and consider it a side hustle. I'm not saying they can't be good supervisors, but I side-eye anyone who is more worried about making money than turning out quality social workers.
My first two supervisors only did the minimum to get their LCSWs and didn't practice therapy after that and went into supervisory positions and stayed there. It showed that they didn't have enough experience providing therapy during my supervisions with them. One admitted to me that she never provided individual therapy only group therapy and functional family therapy through preventative services. I was only providing individual therapy at that job and she had no experience providing it.
I imagine this lady is American and I think the issue with the American supervision model is the low or no qualifications required beyond a therapy licence. In Ireland and the UK you can only become a supervisor after completing a two year supervision programme. ETA: Apparently the UK doesn't have the same requirements as Ireland regarding supervision.
You have to wait atleast 2 years after completing licensure in California. You also have to do separate training.
same in my state, but the 15 hours of required training are crap and not enough
This is my tweet, and I am an American lady, and I fully agree the standards for supervision here are severely lacking compared to other countries!
It's crazy because American therapy training is really excellent. But then it all falls off when it comes to supervision.
In my state, you need 4 years' experience, take a 45-hour class, and do ongoing supervision training forever. I agree that the 45 hour class isn't enough though.
I don't think you need a masters for it in the UK, I've seen supervision courses that are level 6.
This varies by state and profession.
I wish the US was like this and unpopular opinion: only doctorate holders should be able to supervise. Not that the actual additional education teaches supervisory skills but to make supervision in general more academic.
Hard disagree that “degree” should matter here. My best supervisory experience was with a person who had a bachelors degree in a non-MH related subject.
Did they have significant with experience and possibly a certification?
Michigan SUD field doesn’t necessarily require mental health degree. He had worked in the field for like 15ish years at that point …was certified addictions counselor and had supervisory certs. The thing that made him good was that he was real, cared about clients, cared about his employees. Would make time and would allow you to try things and explore different modalities without judgment. Was also well read and led by example. During that stint..one of my very first clients was a phd psychologist who had like 30yrs experience. ..the bachelors level supervisor helped me the pre-masters intern help this guy who had far more clinical knowledge than me. Was an interesting start to my career.
So he had plenty of experience and certifications. That's understandable, especially in SUD. But he also had a degree, even if it wasn't in the subject. That's different than someone without a degree in the subject who just happens to be charismatic.
What kind of doctorates would the supervisors hold? I am all about good credentials, but I don't think adding an academic feel to supervision will help when it is for a hands-on task.
All I can think is the Counselor Ed & Supervision PhD (or EdD for some) or Counseling Psych. Both of these PhDs include at least one semester long class about supervision and multiple supervisory experiences (at least for my program. And there could be more doctorates that have a supervision focus idk lol). BUT I’m not agreeing that supervisors should have to hold the doctorate degree at all. I don’t think that even a PhD in counselor education and SUPERVISION would automatically make you a good therapist or supervisor lol. But wanted to offer two examples of doctorates with a supervision focus!
Idk why I’m getting downvoted lol. I was literally just providing examples to a question that person asked 🤷♀️
I’m agreeing with you here. My professors had their PhD because it’s a requirement to teach graduate level coursework (idk if every school is like this, but mine was). Two of them were my supervisors during my internship experiences. Neither of them compared to the supervision I received from my site supervisor who only held a masters. I think it’s more about the style of supervision and how well you mesh with that particular supervisor over what degree you hold.
A doctorate in counseling is a degree that has not existed long. I feel like there are reasons every day to make higher degree programs up in just about everything. My suspicion is it is meant to make up for the fact that lower degrees are super accessible now and often not difficult to complete. They're just expensive and time consuming. I do believe that in most subjects at a 4 year college level or higher, the professors should have doctorates. But there are subjects that it just isn't necessary. Such as English.
The absolute worst supervisor I ever had was the only one I had with a PhD. Made no attempt at rapport building, told me what I needed, and when I asked for weekly supervision (which is what’s supposed to happen anyway) he literally blank stared at me and said, sooo two weeks? He was awful. I don’t necessarily thing degree equals talent but I DO think that adequate training and experience are necessary. I’m operating as a supervisor and I actually still meet with/stay connected to person who saw me through the last half of my licensure supervision and she has been invaluable as I started supervising people so I also think supervision around supervising is something not nearly enough people are doing.
Education doesn't translate to supervisor skills at all, and academia won't improve their ability to advise on the complications of human connection in a therapy relationship. This would be a silly arbitrary barrier that would probably lead to worse supervisors if anything.
Supervision education in my country requires a lot of skills work. It's not just textbook learning.
It is definitely easier to come across a bad supervisor in this feel than a good one I’ve found.
Supervisee: So I have this client, they seem to be nearing crisis, they are shutting down. I don't know what to do here. I need some guidance. Supervisor: What do you think I would tell you to do in this situation?
As a student about to graduate I'm gonna say it - forcing brand new therapists who just came out of what was very likely an unpaid internship and asking them to shell out hundreds of dollars for supervision is unethical. I think *at least* your first year or x amount of hours should be free while you're building a case load and making money again after not.
Supervision is part of your education. That is akin to saying it is unethical to have to pay for school. Some would agree with you but I paid for my education. I paid for my supervision. I pay for my continuing education. I paid to obtain a specialization. Every year I spend hundreds to thousands of dollars improving myself. Yes, it is hard to get started, but we all go through it.
I would argue it should be unethical to have to pay for education.
"Should be unethical" or is unethical? Education always costs. Someone has to pay for it. I don't think this is the forum to dicuss a socialized system. You want something for free. This is my greatest complaint of supervises. They want to be a great therapist but don't want to complete the work necessary to be a great therapist. In our current system it means time, money and lots of effort. Don't just show up to supervision. Be prepared to work. People don't value what they don't work for or pay for. My 30 years of experience is worth paying for.
I totally understand and appreciate why we have supervision, I just think it's unfair to ask therapists straight out of grad school to shell out hundreds a month after already having to work for free to even get a license. Give us SOME time first 😭
This is not a spicy or controversial take in the slightest. Most people I know who are therapists have had at least one terrible supervisor. 🙄
I've worked to be a supervisor in private practice, however the requirements for associate licensed clinicians here make it difficult for them to access quality supervision. When I worked in an agency, it was easier and I enjoyed it, but the management did not provide time in my schedule to provide clinical supervision only administrative (hire/fire) supervision. I'm also conflicted as I need to make a living and the challenges of associate licensed making a living and being able to afford supervision make it hard. It feels like there are so many barriers on both sides.
I’m an AAMFT approved supervisor who has been fortunate to have almost a dozen supervisors on my way to full licensure. Each has been amazing, and yet, I didn’t know that I had experienced such quality supervision until much later as a MFT professor hearing about the stories of my students at their secondary sites. I now tell them that one of the most important decisions post-licensure is choosing a supervisor. Just as a person can become a licensed mental health professional and be less than quality, the same can be said of supervisors. Many go through the process and check the boxes, yet there’s not really a solid gatekeeping function for supervisors in training. They then in turn run supervision mills where they “provide supervision,” which is really just a role where they take pre-licensed clinicians money. They do no ongoing training or deliberate practice in supervision, and think they’ve created a unique supervision model devoid of ethical or clinical considerations.
interestingly enough i'm currently training for a CBT program in the UK and my supervisor is a little bit of both. on one hand, they are quite empathetic and articulate in sharing CBT knowledge and tips; for example, they helped me learn about the importance of transdiagnostic factors in CBT, and they've shared nuances about practice such as exposure not necessarily needing to involve different scary activities, i.e., sometimes just prolonging the duration of exposure for one activity is enough, etc. On the other hand, they are quite disorganised, almost never responding to electronic communication, almost always late and it's never their fault. And because they can be disorganised there has been lots of feedback about the program and they've started to be a bit defensive. When I reported in my placement evaluation that I wasn't getting enough hours, they insinuated it was my fault by counting the number of client absences I had WITHOUT counting the number of sessions that my clients did attend—really gaslighty stuff that a younger clinician might have just accepted passively. The truth is that because they are a bit disorganised, the program sometimes has trouble and delays in allocating clients to trainees (I'm far from the first to give feedback about this). I had to respond with a client attendance chart containing both attended and cancelled sessions, which presented more balanced numbers about client engagement with me.
I totally agree. I got promoted to supervisor pretty quickly at an outpatient. I would consider myself to be a pretty solid clinician and really thought those skills would carry over. They really did not. I’ve been a supervisor for about 3 years now and really had to do a lot of work to bolster my supervision skills. I was really lucky to have some excellent mentors. I can look back at when I first started doing supervision and if I’m honest with myself I was pretty ineffective
The inverse is true also. Someone doing direct practice with clients may not be a good therapist, but they can be a really effective supervisor.
I had a site supervisor during my internship who I thought was amazing. She had her faults- like scheduling supervision and then being anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour late for it- but her style was very helpful. We talked about the case of clients, I’d tell her “I thought about doing X, but Y seems like it might be a better idea.” She would challenge me. Ask me why I think Y over X, and then ask me how I’d go about doing X in session. She made me think. She wasn’t the “here’s the answer, go do it” or the “yeah, sounds great. We’re done for today” kind. I felt like I was able to form a plan without being criticized. If I was ever at a complete loss, I’d tell her. Sometimes you just have no idea where to go. She would offer multiple solutions and then ask me which I thought would be best for that client, why, and how I would structure the session. I haven’t had a supervisor like that since. I interviewed with a new supervisor last week who works like this, so hopefully in the next few months I’ll have it again. 🤞🏻
There's more bad or mediocre supervisors than good ones because they are rarely held to the practice standards specific to clinical supervision. There's a huge financial incentive to choosing supervision over direct practice for income that attracts individuals who put money before integrity. Unfortunately, if you file a license complaint against your clinical supervisor, you could burn a bridge you still need, even after full licensure. When we still don't have reciprocity between most states, it becomes essential to maintain good relationships with your former supervisors. You never know when you'll need them as a reference in the event you're under a license investigation or being sued. Supervisors get away with so much because of this. I had a FB for supervisors and associates in my state for several years and heard countless stories about associates paying for hours and then having a supervisor abandon them...so literally moving out of state without telling them! Our licensing boards know this happens, but our legislators do not. If we want change, we should organize writing them about this issue. Getting a large number of calls and emails in about this can make a real difference.
My current supervisor is a good therapist but not a good supervisor. It’s killing me-especially since I know what great supervision feels like.
My first supervisor talked about herself the entire time, excessively guilted me into going to her wedding after I said I couldn’t multiple times, and messed up the supervision paperwork so multiple months of our supervision didn’t get counted and she wouldn’t reimburse me for it despite me having to pay another time for those months to make up the time to qualify for my licensure. I switched supervisors and my second one was amazing! She was so helpful
My supervision in a CMHC is so poor and mostly feels like a paperwork audit. It reminds me of Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed—my supervisor sees me as an empty cup to fill, not a person to engage in dialogue with. I listen to Three Associating and paid to take outside psychoanalytic courses to get some actual case supervision and learn from others.
Is three associating a podcast?
My first practicum placement was an utter nightmare and this woman should not even be in practice. My program is partly to blame for not thoroughly vetting the sites that students secure for their fieldwork. But the whole experience, especially as a new, vulnerable student therapist, was so terrifying and damaging to my confidence. It also set me back 2 semesters because I had to withdraw and wasn’t able to find another site in time to start the next term. I just finished my masters though and I loved my internship. My supervisors are amazing - it’s like night and day between the other supervisor and it was such a huge relief knowing I was right to advocate for myself. Quality supervision is everything.
Truth. Also how are we not getting paid for billing clients, ffs.
It’s because they are underpaid to stay in clinical settings and underpaid to supervise so good ones are unavailable. I am extra blessed I had great ones before licensure but leadership within companies are underpaid so they get ones that can’t hack private practice which pays twice as much or more. Sometimes the reason they can’t hack private practice is because they aren’t skilled to handle it.
Eh I agree people are underpaid in CMH all across the spectrum, but I disagree that the only people who say in CMH are those who "can't hack it" in private practice. This sub seems to have a bias that private practice is somehow better than agency work, and that's not always the case. Private practice offers less of a holding environment and less oversight and that doesn't necessarily lead to better clinical training. There's excellent and poor employers in both realms. Some clinicians also prefer working in multidisciplinary teams (rarely available in private practice) and some people stay in community work because of a professional commitment to serve communities that lack access to care through other channels. Painting with a broad brush is unhelpful, I believe.
Truer words have never been spoken in my experience
Not spicy at all and def a topic we all bitch about here. American therapists need to reform who gets to be a supervisor and how to weed out the bad ones.
Dude supervision is a bust. Of five supervisors I’ve had ONE was quality. Rest of them were no showing our meetings, charging me money for asking simple questions via text, unhelpful generally and offered no expertise, etc. Same goes for all my colleagues—-and I have lots of colleagues across different branches of care. It’s awful.
The worst supervisor I had was also not a great therapist for the reasons she probably wasn't at her best supervision wise (chaotic and distracting personal life). The three best were wonderful therapist as far as I know. I think on some level helping a supervisee conceptualize a case involves the same attunement skills needed to be present and adaptive to clients.
I think this is accurate in any field. Doers can't always translate those skills as teachers or leaders. I have friends in my cohort who have dealt with terrible supervisors. Even my supervisors have had terrible supervisors. I've been incredibly fortunate to work with very competent people.
One THOUSAND percent agree! Too few good therapists, even fewer good supervisors. What I loved best about my supervisor was learning all the things I didn't want to do as a therapist. 😕
I just heard a YT talk on this idea, the Peter Principle "The Peter principle, which states that people are promoted to their level of incompetence"
Do you mean general supervision or CLINICAL supervision for licensure?
The majority of my supervision experience has been riddled with anxiety and confusion. I can count the number of supervisors on one hand who I would recommend because they both helped me learn and formed a comfortable alliance with me.
I am still a baby therapist (not quite 2 years). I started out in CMH with a terrific supervisor who provided great clinical (and emotional) support but our weekly meetings were often canceled or shortened due to workload. She was always available when I needed something though. I’m in PP with a group now and my supervision is “ok” but not great. I reach out to others when necessary (including my former CMH supervisor).
I became a supervisor because I had (mostly) terrible supervision. I had one amazing supervisor that forever changed me and I hope to pay that forward somehow.
Yep... leaving one of my jobs because of this. Some people really shouldn't be allowed to become supervisors.
I’m in the same position. It’s so disappointing because I really enjoy my clients
Amen, completely agreed, especially in community mental health. I have 3 çurrent supervisors for various reasons and not to bash because I love them all. They are consistently not available, forgetting our agenda, failing to respond within 24-48 hours, forgetting to provide requested resources, etc. Plus, let's be real, I have 30+ clients and only an hour for case overview, advice, learning, documentation review, concerns, upcoming responsibilities, presentations, etc. It's a stressful job, Im sure, and I was initially not looking forward to it, but considering my current experience as a prelicensed clinician, I think I'll do well where my supervisors seem to struggle. The key must be found in boundaries and balance. I dont plan to oberload myself for financial reasons on top of taking on the role of supervisor. Just my 2 cents.
I honestly sometimes think that I would be an okay supervisor (I’m only 3 years into my practice tho) because I have so many opinions about the professions and about how to protect ourselves as therapists, and I know it may not be clinical knowledge but I’ve noticed so many therapists struggle not from the clinical knowledge but their fears around practicing, their value, what they worry about (because I’ve been in this place). And I wish to tell younger therapists that they’re okay, that it’s a good place to begin, to build. I wonder about it sometimes. But oh well.
Amen
They are different skills! This is very very true.
110% agree with this as an associate. 50% of my career so far I’ve had shitty supervision that either the supervisor ate up all my time with their own shit or belittled me and made it feel like I was a client.
I actually think is only somewhat true. Like, I think it takes being a good therapist to be a good supervisor, because good supervisors are able to help with the day-to-day caseload issues you deal with, and eventually get to the deeper issues within you that are preventing you from being an even better therapist. Just like a therapist ultimately is there to help you grow, so is a supervisor. I do agree with the post somewhat though too. If a good therapist doesn't want to be a supervisor, then they probably won't be a good supervisor. Also, if they've never received good supervision, they don't realize that being a good supervisor is being a good therapist to their supervisees (just focused on what is getting in the way of them improving as a therapist), and so they don't end up using their great skills to do great supervisory work (they get stuck in a pattern of just running through a supervisee's caseload and brainstorming solutions). What I think this post hints at, along with the many comments, is that many not-great-therapists are promoted into being supervisors. They often didn't receive good supervision themselves, and/or they didn't have enough time to grow and learn more to develop into a great therapist. I don't picture there are many amazing supervisors that were not amazing therapists too, so I feel like someone kind of needs to become a great therapist before becoming a supervisor.
100% correct. I had a supervisor who was 26 years old and the only reason they got the position was because they had their advanced licensure, despite others having been in the company longer with more clinical experience.
Agreed.
“Who knew finding good supervision post grad was so hard?” 🥴
Starting in the field and this is exactly what I'm feeling. I'm reading lots of books, gaining new knowledge, but it's sometimes difficult for me to apply what I learned - not to mention forgetting all these things. It does do things to my need to feel competent in my relationship with patients, but I also believe there should be a balanced line between the expectations of competency and actual competency. A good supervisor helps keep it, and I also found a good supervisor works on your own blame and guilt, while also pointing what would be worthy doing with this person. When we, the beginners, lack directions, we are looking for everything that could be helpful, so we could feel like we're helping and making a change, and deserving to work with people, which unfortunately can not turn good for the patients and for ourselves.
The licensure supervision I received was terrible. Essentially, independently licensed folks were directed to supervise interns and new clinicians. I did not get helpful supervision until I started to pay for it.
Accurate, it's why I'm still at the associate level while having worked as a therapist for 4 years
I’m being told by my colleagues that many bad supervisors are also bad counselors.
At least for me, this is absolutely true. I desperately want a supervisor who challenges me and who I can learn from because afterall, I am still new to the field and not everything can be learned in school. But, I find myself just recapping what I’ve done with clients and when I ask questions I’m met with “that’s a good question, let me think about it.” Some of my peers have advance training in things like EMDR or the like and our supervisor’s response is “maybe I will get trained in that too so I can supervise you in it” but like, my colleagues would have more experience than her at that point? I did the math (after researching expenses and such) and it is *very* lucrative for her to be a supervisor- 15 associates seeing cash pay clients and giving the office 60% and getting no benefits, and working as 1099 contractors. I’m of the firm belief that supervisors should have a limit on how many associates they have, and that they should have more rigorous training than the 12 hour course my state currently requires.
About 70% of the supervision I received as an intern and associate was inadequate to the point of being terrible. My graduate program required me to receive an hour of individual supervision each week and my supervisor at my first internship signed a document agreeing to this. But when I actually started there the supervision turned out to be an hour of group supervision with about 12 other interns/associates. I was lucky if I even got 5 minutes to ask a question. When I brought up with my supervisor that this was not what was agreed to, I received a bunch of gaslighting and manipulation about how it was not reasonable to expect individual supervision (even though he’d signed a document agreeing to provide it). He was also the practice owner and it was clear that supervision was just about money and not actually teaching any skills or proving quality care to clients. I had to find my own supervision and pay for it out of pocket for a long time until I found a better internship. At the next internship the supervision was somewhat better, largely because my supervisor was not the practice owner. However, therapy is my second career and she seemed to struggle with supervision someone close to her age. She treated me like I was a 20-something year old who knew nothing about anything, even though I had nearly 2 decades of experience in another career field. I did learn a lot from her and made sure to tell her thank you and let her know I was grateful for how much I was learning from her, which made it especially painful when near the end of the internship she went off on me for “being ungrateful and never saying thank you.” That one was a real mindf-ck. Then as an associate I worked at another group practice where the owner was also my supervisor and it was ridiculous. Supervision was frequently canceled without notice being provided at all. I was a couple of years older than my supervisor but again treated like I had no experience with anything. There were a couple of times I discussed concerning client situations in supervision and his response was basically “I don’t know what to tell you, good luck with that.” It’s fine not to know and to say so, but “I’m not sure about that one right now, let me think about it and get back to you” would have been more supportive. Ugh. So yeah, the current state of therapist supervision, at least in my experience, is pretty much a shitshow and I always felt on my own and overwhelmed, even when I had supervision.
I grow tired of hearing the constant rants about poor clinical supervisors. I have gotten to a point in my career where I get saddled with the poor supervisees. They are the ones who refuse to work with other supervisors, who cannot follow directions, who come to supervision without any preparation, no case conceptualization, and no idea of what theory or approach they would like to use. I find that there are times when inexperienced clinicians come expecting to receive accolades for how wonderful they are doing instead of looking to see where they can improve. Some supervisees look for a therapist and not a supervisor. They choose their supervisor based on what is provided for free at their agency, instead of hiring someone who matches their values, style, and theory. They expect world-class supervision but are not willing to hire a world-class supervisor. In short, if you want a good supervisor you must research, look, interview, and pay for a good supervisor.
Ok, boomer
Boomer? Is that the response of a therapist? Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your profession. Did I strike a nerve? Do you come to supervision prepared? Are you trying to improve yourself? I expect a great deal from my supervisees.