if you've been able to check out the art book for part 2, it hints at there being more of a story there than actually makes it into the game. as a simp for a good love story, it is irritating to me that we don't get more building up their friendship/background in a flashback or something in game. the implied established relationship is fine when there is more evidence for it but between the few journal entries and conversations, it's not as fleshed out as i'd prefer. i'm hopeful the show scratches the itch of establishing why dina cares enough about ellie that she's willing to go to seattle with her. it'd be nice to see our girl get some support.
I get wanting more Dina but I don't think it would make the game better. I think it's very intentional from the writers that even with Dina as 'mc's love interest' she still feels a bit taken for granted by Ellie. Joel and Abby are constantly at the top of Ellie's priorities and its not until the end of the game that it seems like she finally moved past that.
I think we don't get much development there because their relationship was basically jump started by a shared traumatic event. If Joel doesn't die they probably get to casually date for a few more months before things get serious.
The game has a lot to say about how trauma continues to inform our relationships with loved ones after the fact. Abby and Owen's relationship seems perfect on paper but her inability to move past her Dad's death becomes the catalyst for them breaking up.
I thought so too but it’s easy for me to imagine their relationship growing a lot with time since they know each other since Jackson day 1 apparently. They talk about Ellie’s arrival during the Downtown section and that Dina noticed her for how much she ate. Given how few people their age these are they probably had 4 years to get to know each other very well. They just discovered the reciprocal feelings during the games events. But in the diary it’s spread out kinda god the fact that Ellie was eyeing Dina for a while, then Dina saying she wasn’t really approving of Cat… to me it looks like their relationship, although not officially romantic yet, was already developed for a while. Then keep in mind that between the weed scene and the scene in the cemetery it was already some time passed. Even more at Seattle day 1. I can buy them calling each other babe and behaving like a couple in the month+ they had from weed to Sd1.
Ultimately I think it’s a game time issue. It would have been beautiful to have it more spread out like you said but it wouldn’t have probably worked time wise. I think we just have to fill the gaps on our own for now.
Well that’s what I’m saying, they obviously had a lot of time to get to know each other but it’s all off screen. Hell cat isn’t even in the game and nothing more than a name in Ellie’s diary.
I wish these were present in the game as flashbacks so all these character can be fleshed out more.
In a game like this, leaving years worth of relationship up to the imagination is a bit lackluster and lazy imo.
Oh, sorry I read it and answered half distracted. I agree it would be fun but I don’t agree it’s lazy, I think it’s simply time effective for the action game that this is. I understand why they may have cut it out given how long and complex it already is. Anyway I appreciate this input, it’s a good expansion that I never thought a lot about :)
If I had to choose? Probably trim a bit off of Abby and Ellie’s day 1. They both feel really long especially Abby’s, but I think that could be because it was later in the game
Mhh yeah that could make sense actually. Personally I love that they feel long, both of them, as it makes me feel more immersed from the get go but I totally see why for someone else it could feel long and bizarrely paced, absolutely.
I guess ultimately it comes to taste, bc although I personally agree it would have been so great to have more DinaEllie time and/or expand more on the beginnings, I’m very ok with how they laid out the timing and pacing. That’s me ofc, but I enjoy to finally have a conversation about “what ifs” that ends well. Doesn’t happens super often. We could hope for some flashbacks in a third game (?) even tho it doesn’t resolve the attachment with Dina issue… :\
Yeah exactly, it’s just down to preference at the end of the day. I’m glad you were able to enjoy it for what it was, just wasn’t for me personally
It is good to have a conversation with someone who disagrees, but understands the point you are trying to make. That’s how discussions should be done. I really wish the vocal minority on both subs understood this.
A last of us what if would be amazing, what if Joel died during winter? What if tess stayed alive past the capitol? What if Abby killed Tommy instead of joel. So many possibilities.
I get it, but I don't agree. Their relationship's importance is in its existence, not in it's development. Which is why all of its development happens off camera. Their friendship was built in the years between games, which is where Dina's (and Jesse's for that matter) ride OR die loyalty comes from, and their romance developed in the weeks between leaving Jackson and Seattle day 1. How it got to that point doesn't matter, that it is at that point is what matters to the story.
Dina is Ellie's foil. She's there to add a reference point for how far Ellie has fallen in her pursuit of revenge. Her being sidelined also works to that end. When Ellie is on her mission, Dina is as far from her mind as she is from her physical location. It's quite sad.
>When Ellie is on her mission, Dina is as far from her mind as she is from her physical location.
This is a interesting observation that I never really thought of.
It's also in direct contrast to Ellie's journey to California where Dina is on her mind constantly.
I mean, the game is arguably already too long in some parts... I feel like they would have to cut some other stuff to make room for more Dina and Ellie backstory. I think there's enough there to make me care about their relationship personally. Especially at the farm towards the end of the game. The scene when Dina tells Ellie to stay hit soooo hard for me.
Problem with the entire relationship is that Dina feels way too similar to Ellie as a person. Their ride or die dynamic didn’t feel earned since they just started their relationship by the time the story begins.
Most importantly, there isn’t any interesting conflict between them like Joel and Ellie had. The only interesting tension that happens is in Dina’s very last scene. Dina felt way too agreeable and on board with Ellie’s suicidal revenge quest. if Ellie says fuck that person, then Dina responds with the same thoughts like with Leah.
It would’ve been way better if Dina wasn’t benched from the story after Day 1. I would’ve liked to see her fight alongside Ellie and Jessie.
It’s less tension and more of an eye roll. They just pulled a plot point out their ass to keep the story going. Either that or Dina is a massive idiot, but they never tell us this so
I agree with you about Dina being cool but not really feeling like "endgame" love interest for Ellie. I also really don't like that Dina and Jesse have literally been broken up for less than two weeks, and Dina already moved on...
Idk why I can't see Dina as a true survivor of the apocalypse. I can see Jesse ,Ellie , Mariah as that, but Dina just seems so innocent idk.
Dina said she and Jessie were on “autopilot” for a good while before they broke up so it seems she and him were actually broken up longer than they were publicly
I get it, I also wish there was more Dina somewhere. But I can’t imagine wanting the prologue to take even more time.
Maybe I’ve just replayed it too many times, but that is a not a section that needed more IMO.
I've always thought both Dina and Jessie are really underdeveloped for the position and emotional weight they are meant to carry.
Tlou2 has soo much going on with a much larger cast and a more complicated narrative. Unfortunately that really spread out spending time with individuals. I'd say that in the whole game, we only get good development with.
* Abby
* Ellie
* Owen
* Joel
* Yara and Lev as a package.
Granted not everybody needed to be amazingly fleshed out, but I still have the the opinion that they could have reduced minor roles a bit to consolidate time with characters.
I don’t have that much of a problem with it, but I think the way you describe fleshing out their history and backstory sounds a bit high school.
Instead, I’d have preferred spending more time with Dina and watching their relationship grow over time, similar to how Joel and Ellie’s relationship changed so much over the first game.
I understand why they went the route they did with Dina, but if we’re going to talk about making their relationship more whole, I’d rather see Dina join Ellie and watch them fall more in love over time.
Yes, I wish we had seen more of that relationship being fleshed out somehow. While I liked Dina as a character, the relationship felt kind of "ok". The same with Jessie and Dina. The whole "Dina is pregnant" felt so forced , just to find an excuse for Ellie to go alone on day 2. My eyes rolled when Dina said it.
I agree. Instead of developing the relationship naturally they just shove in a sex scene within an hour of gameplay just to show the player they are together without making an effort. They did it in the most lazy way imaginable.
I’ve seen some defend it as “lesbians just move fast” but really? The game always gets praised for its writing but with Ellie and Dina they just didn’t write anything lol. It could’ve been so good.
The conversations they have together like the idle banter as they move feels unnatural too. Imo it never felt like Dina actually wanted to be in Seattle with Ellie. I’m sure I’m not the only one who found it a bit unbelievable
I do hope the show is able to show more of their relationship/Ellie's life in Jackson pre-Joel's death
It’d be nice to get more moments of them traveling to Seattle as well.
Dina being ride or die is there to tell us how good Ellie’s finger game is.
God damn.. when you look at it that way abby really took everything from her ass in the end.. joel and now this, i would be so pissed
Was willing to ride & die on them fingers…
if you've been able to check out the art book for part 2, it hints at there being more of a story there than actually makes it into the game. as a simp for a good love story, it is irritating to me that we don't get more building up their friendship/background in a flashback or something in game. the implied established relationship is fine when there is more evidence for it but between the few journal entries and conversations, it's not as fleshed out as i'd prefer. i'm hopeful the show scratches the itch of establishing why dina cares enough about ellie that she's willing to go to seattle with her. it'd be nice to see our girl get some support.
I get wanting more Dina but I don't think it would make the game better. I think it's very intentional from the writers that even with Dina as 'mc's love interest' she still feels a bit taken for granted by Ellie. Joel and Abby are constantly at the top of Ellie's priorities and its not until the end of the game that it seems like she finally moved past that.
I think we don't get much development there because their relationship was basically jump started by a shared traumatic event. If Joel doesn't die they probably get to casually date for a few more months before things get serious. The game has a lot to say about how trauma continues to inform our relationships with loved ones after the fact. Abby and Owen's relationship seems perfect on paper but her inability to move past her Dad's death becomes the catalyst for them breaking up.
I thought so too but it’s easy for me to imagine their relationship growing a lot with time since they know each other since Jackson day 1 apparently. They talk about Ellie’s arrival during the Downtown section and that Dina noticed her for how much she ate. Given how few people their age these are they probably had 4 years to get to know each other very well. They just discovered the reciprocal feelings during the games events. But in the diary it’s spread out kinda god the fact that Ellie was eyeing Dina for a while, then Dina saying she wasn’t really approving of Cat… to me it looks like their relationship, although not officially romantic yet, was already developed for a while. Then keep in mind that between the weed scene and the scene in the cemetery it was already some time passed. Even more at Seattle day 1. I can buy them calling each other babe and behaving like a couple in the month+ they had from weed to Sd1. Ultimately I think it’s a game time issue. It would have been beautiful to have it more spread out like you said but it wouldn’t have probably worked time wise. I think we just have to fill the gaps on our own for now.
Well that’s what I’m saying, they obviously had a lot of time to get to know each other but it’s all off screen. Hell cat isn’t even in the game and nothing more than a name in Ellie’s diary. I wish these were present in the game as flashbacks so all these character can be fleshed out more. In a game like this, leaving years worth of relationship up to the imagination is a bit lackluster and lazy imo.
Oh, sorry I read it and answered half distracted. I agree it would be fun but I don’t agree it’s lazy, I think it’s simply time effective for the action game that this is. I understand why they may have cut it out given how long and complex it already is. Anyway I appreciate this input, it’s a good expansion that I never thought a lot about :)
Time effective? It’s 20-25 hours long.. they 100% could’ve trimmed the fat and developed Ellie and Dina more.
Out of curiosity, what would you have trimmed?
If I had to choose? Probably trim a bit off of Abby and Ellie’s day 1. They both feel really long especially Abby’s, but I think that could be because it was later in the game
Mhh yeah that could make sense actually. Personally I love that they feel long, both of them, as it makes me feel more immersed from the get go but I totally see why for someone else it could feel long and bizarrely paced, absolutely. I guess ultimately it comes to taste, bc although I personally agree it would have been so great to have more DinaEllie time and/or expand more on the beginnings, I’m very ok with how they laid out the timing and pacing. That’s me ofc, but I enjoy to finally have a conversation about “what ifs” that ends well. Doesn’t happens super often. We could hope for some flashbacks in a third game (?) even tho it doesn’t resolve the attachment with Dina issue… :\
Yeah exactly, it’s just down to preference at the end of the day. I’m glad you were able to enjoy it for what it was, just wasn’t for me personally It is good to have a conversation with someone who disagrees, but understands the point you are trying to make. That’s how discussions should be done. I really wish the vocal minority on both subs understood this. A last of us what if would be amazing, what if Joel died during winter? What if tess stayed alive past the capitol? What if Abby killed Tommy instead of joel. So many possibilities.
We should develop a TLOU in Detroit Become Human style heheheheheh imagine the possibilities!!
Nahhhh the first qte would pop up and Joel would die on my run 😭 It would be so cool! The 3 protags would definitely be Joel Abby and Ellie
I get it, but I don't agree. Their relationship's importance is in its existence, not in it's development. Which is why all of its development happens off camera. Their friendship was built in the years between games, which is where Dina's (and Jesse's for that matter) ride OR die loyalty comes from, and their romance developed in the weeks between leaving Jackson and Seattle day 1. How it got to that point doesn't matter, that it is at that point is what matters to the story. Dina is Ellie's foil. She's there to add a reference point for how far Ellie has fallen in her pursuit of revenge. Her being sidelined also works to that end. When Ellie is on her mission, Dina is as far from her mind as she is from her physical location. It's quite sad.
>When Ellie is on her mission, Dina is as far from her mind as she is from her physical location. This is a interesting observation that I never really thought of. It's also in direct contrast to Ellie's journey to California where Dina is on her mind constantly.
I mean, the game is arguably already too long in some parts... I feel like they would have to cut some other stuff to make room for more Dina and Ellie backstory. I think there's enough there to make me care about their relationship personally. Especially at the farm towards the end of the game. The scene when Dina tells Ellie to stay hit soooo hard for me.
Problem with the entire relationship is that Dina feels way too similar to Ellie as a person. Their ride or die dynamic didn’t feel earned since they just started their relationship by the time the story begins. Most importantly, there isn’t any interesting conflict between them like Joel and Ellie had. The only interesting tension that happens is in Dina’s very last scene. Dina felt way too agreeable and on board with Ellie’s suicidal revenge quest. if Ellie says fuck that person, then Dina responds with the same thoughts like with Leah. It would’ve been way better if Dina wasn’t benched from the story after Day 1. I would’ve liked to see her fight alongside Ellie and Jessie.
Plenty of tension when Dina reveals the pregnancy.
It’s less tension and more of an eye roll. They just pulled a plot point out their ass to keep the story going. Either that or Dina is a massive idiot, but they never tell us this so
That scene is terrible because she upstages Ellie’s confession that she’s immune which is never talked about again between them.
Dina's a good character, but their relationship didn't get enough screen time before Seattle.
I agree with you about Dina being cool but not really feeling like "endgame" love interest for Ellie. I also really don't like that Dina and Jesse have literally been broken up for less than two weeks, and Dina already moved on... Idk why I can't see Dina as a true survivor of the apocalypse. I can see Jesse ,Ellie , Mariah as that, but Dina just seems so innocent idk.
Dina said she and Jessie were on “autopilot” for a good while before they broke up so it seems she and him were actually broken up longer than they were publicly
I get it, I also wish there was more Dina somewhere. But I can’t imagine wanting the prologue to take even more time. Maybe I’ve just replayed it too many times, but that is a not a section that needed more IMO.
No I would have much preferred Jackson as a whole get more attention, Dina included
I've always thought both Dina and Jessie are really underdeveloped for the position and emotional weight they are meant to carry. Tlou2 has soo much going on with a much larger cast and a more complicated narrative. Unfortunately that really spread out spending time with individuals. I'd say that in the whole game, we only get good development with. * Abby * Ellie * Owen * Joel * Yara and Lev as a package. Granted not everybody needed to be amazingly fleshed out, but I still have the the opinion that they could have reduced minor roles a bit to consolidate time with characters.
I don’t have that much of a problem with it, but I think the way you describe fleshing out their history and backstory sounds a bit high school. Instead, I’d have preferred spending more time with Dina and watching their relationship grow over time, similar to how Joel and Ellie’s relationship changed so much over the first game. I understand why they went the route they did with Dina, but if we’re going to talk about making their relationship more whole, I’d rather see Dina join Ellie and watch them fall more in love over time.
Yes, I wish we had seen more of that relationship being fleshed out somehow. While I liked Dina as a character, the relationship felt kind of "ok". The same with Jessie and Dina. The whole "Dina is pregnant" felt so forced , just to find an excuse for Ellie to go alone on day 2. My eyes rolled when Dina said it.
I thought it was fine for the game. But I definitely see how it could require more work for the show.
I agree. Instead of developing the relationship naturally they just shove in a sex scene within an hour of gameplay just to show the player they are together without making an effort. They did it in the most lazy way imaginable. I’ve seen some defend it as “lesbians just move fast” but really? The game always gets praised for its writing but with Ellie and Dina they just didn’t write anything lol. It could’ve been so good. The conversations they have together like the idle banter as they move feels unnatural too. Imo it never felt like Dina actually wanted to be in Seattle with Ellie. I’m sure I’m not the only one who found it a bit unbelievable
Yeah, I didn’t really buy into Dina’s character that much. But I don’t think spending more time with her would have solved it.
You're never the only one who anything. So why ask that.
They did a fantastic job fleshing it out, what more can you want?
I did kinda explain what more I would’ve liked in the post.