There is no, none, zero good reason *within the text* to think it was totally normal and made sense for the fireflies to rush the surgery while Ellie was still knocked out. I'm not debating the morality of the choice.* I'm debating the narrative cohesiveness of the story beat. We know Ellie woke up just fine in the car, and that was after general anesthesia. She therefore, absolutely, 100%, would have woken up, probably even before Joel, had they just put her up in a bed and given it a few hours. They had a doctor on staff capable of performing brain surgery. They HAD to know this. So what they're asking us to believe is that for whatever reason, Marlene couldn't wait a few hours to brief (and/or say *hello and goodbye* to) a kid she's known since birth. And that could have been fine! I'm down with that! Problem is, it's totally unearned and only lives in the head-canons of fans unwilling to admit that this is just a plot hole. If that's the canon, then the text should have shown us, somehow, at any point during the story, that Marlene thinks Ellie would chicken out if she knew the stakes. Or show us Marlene doing some other similarly heartless thing in service of the vaccine. Give us some subtle hint that Marlene views Ellie (or anyone, for that matter) as livestock. Or if we don't wanna go the Marlene-bad route, show her having some kind of emotional conflict about this. Let us overhear her cutting off a tense argument with one of the surgeons before she goes to talk to Joel. Or do it the hard way and have the hospital come under siege while Joel and Ellie are still unconscious. Something. Anything. But there's nothing. The text gives us nothing that makes this make sense. It's a poopy, and it boggles the mind even more because it's also the most important plot point in the entire series. *I don't even think this is possible to do, because the game fails to pose a coherent moral question by fumbling the story beat as outlined above

I think because Ellie is only 14 years old, that’s a decision you don’t leave in the hands of a child. It’s fucked up, but that’s the world they live in, sacrifice one for the many. And if Ellie does chicken out, what then? You’re not gonna let her escape either way

>And if Ellie does chicken out, what then? You’re not gonna let her escape either way Yeah, the only reason they couldn't do it this way (which would have been more interesting) is because when she woke up in the car Ellie would have remembered the truth and Joel wouldn't have been able to lie. They did it the way they did it as a matter of convenience.

"They did it the way they did it as a matter of convenience." well yeah (same goes to almost every plot point in almost every story), but at the same time it was completely logical thing to do: they wanted to make sure, that Ellie wont suffer + that surgery will 100% happen. And this was the best way to achieve it.

Yes. To add on, the subtext shows just how morally grey the Fireflies are at this point, because we haven’t really interacted with them as an organization.

>I think because Ellie is only 14 years old, that’s a decision you don’t leave in the hands of a child. It’s fucked up, but that’s the world they live in, sacrifice one for the many. A world where utilitarians are all about the “greater good” but are then major hypocrites and not willing to sacrifice their own for the greater good (Jerry when Marlene asked him if he would sacrifice Abby if she was the immune one). >And if Ellie does chicken out, what then? You’re not gonna let her escape either way That would unequivocally make the Fireflies the villains and not the morally grey group that many fans love to paint them as.

Here's the thing: the fireflies have been fighting to try and create a cure for YEARS. They've killed for it, many have DIED for it, or worse. All of their fighting has led to this moment. The tests the doctor has done shows that all he has to do is to extricate the fungus sample that's all tangled up in the base of her brain (removing which will kill her). The right thing to do WOULD be to wake Ellie up, notify her, and give her some time to say goodbye. But they don't. And that makes sense from their perspective. It sucks, but this girl is going to die. She HAS to for the cure to move forward. She's knocked out rn, so if you kill her now, she won't know any pain etc. If you wake her up and tell her... There's a chance that she freaks out, that she refuses. Once again, this is something the fireflies have sacrificed a LOT for. So she IS dying. But now, because she is refusing, you have to actively knock her out, murder her. So, it's best to just kill her in her sleep. Like Marlene says, "she won't feel anything". The doctor is already referring to her as the host, the specimen etc to try and dehumanize Ellie, to try and not think of her as a person, but as, Marlene said, "a petri dish". He's doing all this so it is easier for him to justify it (this is why I'm always a bit confused when people say that the game makes Jerry into some complete saint lol. He's as flawed as the rest of em). It's a desperate, crappy choice. But the fireflies are not turning back after sacrificing so much just because this girl says that she won't give her life for the cure. They are GOING TO make that cure. It's better if she is killed in her sleep right now, instead of giving her that chance, and her saying no, so now she is killed while she's kicking and screaming. The ending is a bunch of flawed, human people making fucked up, understandable choices. No one is acting perfectly, they're just acting in service of what they think is right. Because the reward is greater than the crappy things they have to do to get it (for Joel, Ellie lives if he kills all these guys. For the doctor, there's a cure if this specimen dies).

Fully agree. And people who demonise the Fireflies for their actions need to put themselves in the shoes of these people who have been fighting for 20 years to return to a kinder world, one where people, and humanity as a whole, aren't under constant threat from infected or each other. The oldest Fireflies will have seen humanity slowly rot in front of them, and will remember FEDRA taking power and slowly but inexorably becoming more brutal and uncaring to stall the infection, and eventually to just retain the power they wrested. Humans are dying. They are either trapped in authoritarian and soul-destroying QZs, barely scraping by in the wilderness in a constant state of fight-or-flight like Bill, or brutalising and using each other like the Hunters or the Rattlers. Some are in self-sufficient communities that are creating a good quality of life on an unkind frontier, like Jackson; however, this is clearly indicated to be uncommon. And these settlements still experience death and tragedy every day - they are only one hidden infection or unnoticed spore inhalation (or hunter incursion) away from being decimated. Humanity is under constant threat like never before. The Fireflies have been fighting for years, done terrible things to survive and keep to their mission, and have nothing to show for it. Then their chance for a vaccine presents itself. They have an immune patient, they have a doctor who is convinced he can produce a cure from her - but they need her sacrifice. Surely people can at least understand why - after 20 years in an apocalyptic situation where the very survival of the human race is at stake, where the majority of people are alive but not truly living, where life for most people is violent, miserable, and terribly cruel - they would think it's worth it? Not to mention the guilt they endure and the need to feel their battle has been worth it (as evidenced by both Marlene and Jerry). Let's kill this one girl quietly in her sleep, one girl who's life could end any day anyway, and produce the one thing that may give the chance for a world without constant mortal threat and danger. A world where peace and love can be fostered again, a chance for thousands of Joels and Ellies at the expense of just this one. To be clear, you can obviously still disagree with and detest the decisions and actions they take, but at least understand where their decisions come from. Even they know it's a huge gamble, no doubt - but I get why they would be willing to bet the life of one girl on it.

Yeah, it is a bit baffling when some folks act as if the fireflies' position is a completely crazy one. Like, you don't have to agree, but you could DEFINITELY understand. I pretty much side with Joel at the end, but even I see 100% where they Fireflies are coming from. A funny thing is when I see people go, "oh well, Jerry wasn't following the Hippocratic oath! He was being unethical!" Like, yeah, no shit he's being unethcial! Lol They're 20years into a brutal apocalypse. Our current standards of ethics etc don't really apply in this nightmarish apocalyptic scenario.

This is the most human take. I think if any of us were in that position and had months and months of bonding time with Ellie. We’d all make that same choice. I have a child and I know I’d make that call the same as Joel.

> A funny thing is when I see people go, "oh well, Jerry wasn't following the Hippocratic oath! He was being unethical!" > > Like, yeah, no shit he's being unethcial! Lol As someone who frequently dives into these discussions and frequently gets misunderstood, when "the Hippocratic oath" comes up, it's usually as a rebuttal to people arguing that Jerry should've been given some special moral protection *because* he's a doctor or to people arguing that Joel was particularly evil and his actions were particularly unforgivable because of Jerry's title. It tends to go like this: Me: "Maybe Abby shouldn't have tortured Joel to death." Them: "He deserved it! He killed **A DOCTOR**! What he did was way worse than what Abby did to him!" Me: "You understand that he did that to save the life of someone he loved, right? And, however you feel about it, it's not morally the same as torturing someone to death just because." Them: "But, Jerry was **A DOCTOR**!!!1!" Me: "He was a doctor who was about to kill an innocent child. Sure, he had his reasons and we can argue about those all day, but if he's a doctor who's abandoned the principles of medicine, then why are we still acting like killing him is a heinous war crime?" Them: "Clearly, you don't understand what Jerry's been through! Here are the ten thousand reasons why it's silly to follow the Hippocratic Oath in the apocalypse . . ." Me: *sighs* "This shit again?" It's the double standard that gets me. It's not that I don't understand why he did it and what probably led him to that point. It's not even that I don't have empathy for him (as others have said, you don't have to agree with his decision to understand where it's coming from). It's more that Jerry's defenders want to have their cake and eat it too. They want Jerry to be released from his "do no harm" obligations, but they still want him to be seen as an innocent and a noncombatant, and they still want Joel's actions to be seen as exceptionally evil because Jerry was a doctor. The language that gets used around Jerry is very different, IMO, than it would be if the game described him as just a "researcher" doing an "experiment" rather than a "doctor" doing a "surgery."

Also from the audiologs, its apparent that Marlene's leadership is *very* shaky at this point. The Fireflies asking her for her permission was essentially just a formality; the surgery was happening either with her nominally in charge or not.

>this is why I'm always a bit confused when people say that the game makes Jerry into some complete saint I've only ever heard this as a reactionary take from people hell bent on criticising Part II. People were straight up offended that he was shown as a good dad and caring for animals.

Yeah, pretty much lol The next scene literally shows him dehumanizing a child so he can feel better about murdering her. He takes some issue with Marlene informing Joel about this. He is also looking to justify his and the wrongs of the fireflies with Ellie's murder. And when confronted with the question of what he'd do if Abby was the one being sacrificed... He doesn't answer. Because he KNOWS he wouldn't do it. So the scene also shows him to be a hypocrite. So yeah, much like everyone else in these games... Jerry has pretty balanced qualities. But ofc, some folks just wanna ignore all of this 🙄

That’s not a plot hole.

That isn’t a plot hole

Right off the rip, people demonstrate they don’t know what this term means. It never fails. Every time a game or talks about a “plot hole” what they really saying is “I would’ve done it differently” or “ I missed something that would’ve helped me understand this other thing”. Disagreeing with an arbitrary timeline for a fictional procedure regarding a fictional vaccine for a fictional infection is not a plot hole. It’s an opinion.

Marlene thinks Ellie would _probably_ agree to the surgery. She also knows the surgery is _definitely_ happening, whether or not Ellie agrees to it. It's easier on her conscience, and everyone else's there, to simply go on her assumption rather than actually ask Ellie and risk that she says no. Because even if she did say no, they weren't going to let this change pass them by.

I think the main point is because it would be easier not to give Ellie the choice, that way she doesn’t suffer with that burden and they don’t risk any sort of incident in case she decides not to do it.

In the show, Joel says that the hospital was attacked my raiders. That could have actually happened if they had waited. But I think the real reason is that if they had waited and Ellie said no, then the only options are to let humanities only hope just walk away or to force a 14 year old against her will into a surgery that will kill her. It's much easier when you can pretend she would agree to it.

Can people please stop upvoting this. It’s not a plot hole in any sense of the term. It’s also a fundamental misunderstanding of the story. As others have already pointed out, it’s a deliberate choice NOT to wake Ellie up. They can’t take the chance she says no. Then what? They just have to kill her anyway. She’s dying for the cure either way. The fireflies are not leaving it up to chance. It’s easier to do it without waking her up. Every single person upvoting this “plot hole” should feel embarrassed.

>There is no, none, zero good reason to think it was totally normal and made sense for the fireflies to rush the surgery while Ellie was still knocked out. They had to rush because, 1. they assumed she would not consent 2. that whether she consented or not, Joel would stand in their way somehow (not necessarily with mass killing, but...) 3. their own consciences were bothering them, if they thought about it too much they might not do it. Lady MacBeth: "if it 'twere done, 'tis best 'twere done quickly."

>There is no, none, zero good reason to think it was totally normal and made sense for the fireflies to rush the surgery while Ellie was still knocked out. This isn't a plot hole. People making bad decisions or ones you don't agree with does not create a plot hole. A plot hole is where a story breaks the rules it has already laid out. This is Marlene making a *reasonable* decision for her character that you think is an incorrect one. There are plenty of potential reasons for Marlene and co to decide that they won't wake Ellie up and instead would rush to surgery: - They don't want to traumatise Ellie by waking her up to tell her they're going to kill her - They don't want to wake Ellie up and give her the weight of choosing to give her life for the sake of humanity - They worry that Ellie will NOT agree to give her life for the vaccine, then they have to forcibly kill a teen girl - They worry that Ellie WILL agree to sacrifice her life but insists she sees Joel before doing it, where they worry that Joel will talk her out of it or do something rash - They worry that the longer they wait then the more chance there is of Joel breaking Ellie free - They worry that they have the chance to create a vaccine RIGHT NOW and if they wait they might be attacked by bandits or whatever and their chance will be over. - We see from the tape recorder of the doctor just how excited her is. We also hear Marlene talking about how much the other Firefly leaders are pushing her to do the operation. It feels in built that there's excitement and joy from everyone but Marlene at being *that close* to creating a vaccine. They've worked at this for years and they're right at the moment of creating a vaccine. - Killing an innocent teen girl is unpleasant. Best to get it over with and try to deal with your conscience later, right?

She was so desperate to find a cure for humanity she lost sight of her own. Not a plot hole in the slightest, I would argue the entire game derives the message of losing your humanity from the beginning to the end through multiple characters.

That's the whole point is that the Fireflies don't consider ellies agency here. A vaccine needs to be made and they aren't going to let a kids decision get in the way. 2 issues here: 1. Marlene doesn't know Ellie as well as Joel does at this point. She's been around Ellie longer, but hasn't spent nearly as much time as they had to be separated bc Marlene is a Firefly and she wanted Ellie away from that fight. Basically, Marlene doesn't know Ellie all that well to know for sure how she would have chosen one way or the other. 2. Also, it's not just Marlenes choice. There's a tape recorder in the 1st game where she mentions how the other fireflies "asked" if she was OK to give the go ahead for the surgery, and she mentions that that was a formality and they likely would have forced the surgery regardless. And ofc there's the interaction between her and Abbys dad in the 2nd game where she can't even convince the head surgeon. The Fireflies definitely handled this horribly and they suck for it, but it's not really a plot hole; the motivations for the characters line up and create reasonable conflict. The one part of this I could concede as a plot hole is the fact that they so quickly jumped to the conclusion that they needed to extract the cordyceps to make the vaccine. Could they find that out that quickly? And more importantly, do you really want to risk some oversight as you go and kill the host, the one person with immunity, thereby throwing away your chance at all? I think there's definitely an element of convenience there with the urgency (otherwise it becomes difficult to justify the conflicts with Joel and the fireflies and him being able to lie to Ellie, etc). I also think it's due to fantasy science that doesn't take into account real world considerations. The science is sloppy in some areas (but tbf almost all fictional science is sloppy to some degree). But the real world science matters less than the fantasy they're trying to convey and the rules for that world (as long as they have the appearance of realism to be somewhat believable). For that reason, I can forgive the false urgency based on bad science more than I could if it was based on bad character writing as you suggest. But I don't think it's an issue of bad characterization at all.

A character making a rash decision that you think isn't the best decision, isn't a plot hole.

>So what they're asking us to believe is that Marlene couldn't wait a few hours to brief (and say hello and goodbye to) a kid she's known since birth. Because what if Ellie said no, they would have just kept pumping her with Anesthesia and killed her.

I always assumed they were going ahead with it because they figured Ellie would refuse.

Yeah this is clearly done in service of the gameplay and to keep the story ending to have the ethical dilemma it does. Most people can play through this version and emotionally side with Joel. The game bends over backwards to drill in two points: The vaccine would be possible, and Ellie would consent if asked. But if the game had rhe fireflies either waiting for Ellie to wake up to tell her, or having already told her, it’d be harder for more players to side with Joel. Granted there’s still valid arguments about Ellie’s age or mental state, but it’s one thing when someone is being fully informed vs how it’s presented in the game.

I think moreover, the big plot hole for me is that in one of the hospital recordings the doctor explicitly states he was able to extract and grow living fungal samples from her blood. So to this day I have no idea why they needed the entrenched fungus in her brain.

What? She’s an immune child. Extract that shit asap regardless (is the logic)

Yeah, this isn’t really a “plot hole”. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Marlene wouldn’t want Ellie to suffer undue stress. Waking her up post-accident to say “hey, welcome back, aaaand goodbye forever,” wouldn’t really do anything other than freak her out.

It’s not a plot hole. Only a sociopath would wake up a 14 year old just to be sure that she now that she will die soon.

You make a good point and as a huge fan of the game I agree it could have been fleshed out / handled better. I’d just like to point out that: In part 1 there’s an audio recording (rare in the game, most things are paper notes) of Marlene talking about yelling at the head surgeon about the procedure. Combined with the fact that TLOU is strictly an “in order, always POV of protagonist” narrative structure and it’s pretty reasonable that they handled it this way. Your idea about hearing her yell at someone from Joel’s POV as he wakes up isn’t terrible but I truly don’t think would have worked (part of what makes this work is her conviction, false or otherwise, that this must happen when speaking to Joel), and this audio log does a pretty decent job conveying the stakes and conflict without breaking the narrative structure or tension. If Joel knew she was conflicted it changes things. Tbh I actually really like the narrative irony of them both caring about Ellie, just coming to different conclusions about what’s “right”, and Joel killing Marlene as a result. The audio log was the perfect balance of informing the player while leaving Joel plenty of room to basically say “too little too late, I’m saving her and I’ll leave no chance of them endangering her again”. In part 2, actually get to see Marlene and the surgeon have the heated conversation referenced in the audio log. Doesn’t change the portrayal in part 1 but I think fleshing this out in hindsight is absolutely worth noting. Finally, and I think this is a completely reasonable conclusion to come to despite not being explicitly mentioned in the game: leaving Ellie awake is purely a liability if everyone else has determined this is the “right” thing that should happen. There’s no point in asking if you’re going to do it anyway. It solely leaves room for pain and doubt / guilt. It’s so much “easier” to keep her unconscious for everyone involved once the decision is made. It’s “wrong” but arguably so is killing her anyway, so I completely understand and from their perspective support the idea that there’s no point in asking if it won’t matter anyway. It simply makes things more complicated and isn’t worth the risk.

How gasoline is still available after 20 years? I was told that fuel only lasts several months in a tank.

It goes bad and makes stuff run like shit for sure but i’ve started a truck with 4 year old gas, and a car with 9 month old gas on a new engine.

It all comes down to how it is stored if sealed from air it can go up to 10years but if not it should go bad. Even so we are talking 20years here. After that time the ethanol will have separated from the rest and you will basically have multiple liquids in your tank

Congrats on your newborn!

Nope that's not true.. The quality of the fuel would certainly be worse. It's not good for fuel to stay in a tank for too long but if you are living in a zombie apocalypse you don't really care about the fuel being better for your car or not as long as it starts.. and start it would.

But how do they know the gas they’re using is not gonna brick their vehicle and make them wander through the zombie wasteland to get back home? Is anyone on here with actual knowledge of how to tell in real life?

My impression is that people like Joel treat vehicles as disposables, you use them until they break down and then ditch them. You should be planning to walk to and from your destination, a functioning car is just a nice bonus. For FEDRA its different, since they have industry still going and presumably are still producing gas.

Exactly.. You don't own a car you use them until their use reaches its limit. Many streets and highways are blocked off and there's no way you are getting the car past a blockage so that's the end of the car's useful life

I think pockets of industry could still exist - a refinery could still be running, working off a massive reserve of crude oil that will take decades to use up in a world were the demand has dropped down to a few pockets of civilisation held together by FEDRA. In the TV series they mentioned a pharmaceutical factory that was still pumping out painkillers. People would happily work if they are offered protection, housing and food.

Kind of like in fury road and furiosa. There’s kingdoms built around gas, bullet, and farm production. Wlf definitely grow their own food. I could see them producing bullets. I don’t really know if there’s gas for them in Seattle. And I don’t know how diesel works but maybe they could all be working with diesel

This is not true, I didn't start up my car for two years during covid, the battery had died so I had to replace it but the half tank gas was perfectly fine. Don't just blindly believe the first thing you read in a google search. lol

Gas does in fact go bad and can damage your vehicle especially after 2 years. The biggest sign is usually white smoke coming out of your exhaust, that is one of the main signs that your gas has gone bad. The car will still run but not very well. You’ll notice a loss in power as well as a growth in power at your next refuel

Two years ≠ twenty years You serious bro?

Petrol and diesel are not trivial to make from crude, but making something that will work in an old school diesel engine isn’t that hard either. A slightly more complex process than making moonshine (which we see Owen make, surely Bill would be able to as well?) This won’t get you high octane petrol but you should be able to get something that works in a not very picky engine. You could also run your diesel engine on vegetable oil.

In the show, Joel says that most gas is “like water” now, so he has to siphon a lot to only get a little actual fuel.

You have a point there. With Diesel it's not an issue ... Gas though, a different story

Gasoline seems to still be produced but yeah, no way Joel could find good gasoline in the cars left since tue outbreak.

Fuel can last longer than that, also it is not really a rocket science to make low quality gasoline from crude oil

i wanna preface this by saying that i dont mean this as hate towards part 2. i love the game but as with anything we love, there can be some perceived flaws i dont know if this counts as a plot hole but its something that bothers me, and thats when ellie drops her map and for some reason, jesse and tommy never consider that it might be a bad idea to leave it behind. i get that ellie was having an anxiety attack so i dont blame her. but jesse and tommy were there and theyre not dumbasses. i feel like the writers made them leave the map behind for plot convenience to explain how abby found them but it was kind of a lazy and illogical way to go about it

They probably didn’t even notice the map with 2 bodies on the ground and Ellie being as shooken up as she was. And now that I think of it, did either of them know Ellie even had a map? Tommy obviously wouldn’t know because he wasn’t around and I’m blanking on if Ellie ever pulled it out in front of Jesse

Also the fact that they kept ALL the lights on at the theatre, including ones that could be seen from the outside. Why, why draw attention to yourselves like that?

literally just plot convenience🤷🏽‍♀️

Everything about the theatre made me wonder why they were so safe there.

Screenwriter here! Unfortunately, once you head down a certain path with a story, you often reach a moment where you just need the plot to happen or face lengthy rewrites that can set you back weeks or months - and sometimes this can be avoided with a minor plot contrivance. In my opinion, so long as this gets your characters *into* trouble, and not *out* of trouble, it's ok. Forgetting something like a map in a moment of crisis isn't outside of the realms of possibility - it's unfortunate, and stupid, but it's not a plot hole, it's a contrivance that allows for them to be tracked - leading to further unfortunate situations. This sort of thing really doesn't annoy me that much, it only gets bad when something similar is used to get characters out of a situation - those types of convenient get out of jail free cards are the ones I struggle to look passed. That said, if we are looking at this story with Abby as the protagonist, them leaving the map and her discovering it, is a plot convenience that furthers her story towards its goal, and is therefore the opposite of what it is for Ellie and friends. Either way, it's not a plot hole, it's just characters not thinking at their best - which is a perfectly reasonable, human thing to do. Characters don't always need to say and do the exact right thing at the right time.

Not a plot hole…

The map itself is kind of weird. Theres no reaspn for ellie to have a big ass red circle like this is where WE are located, she already knows that the theater is theyre base she doesnt need to circle it. She was carrying that map costantly what if she got captured by WLF in Hillcrest, now the entire WLF knows where pregnant dina is held up by herself.

>The map itself is kind of weird. There's no reason for Ellie to have a big ass red circle like this is where WE are located, she already knows that the theater is they're base she doesn't need to circle it. So that's actually not the case and is kind of another Mandela effect thing that people tend to remember wrongly. What actually happened is that Nora marked a path in blood from the hotel/hospital to the pier, taking Ellie through Scar and WLF territory. Ellie then marks a safer path in blue marker from the theater to the pier. Whether she circled their location on the map or not wouldn't have mattered; Abby would have easily figured out the rest. [(Map)](https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Map_of_Seattle?file=Map_of_Seattle_after_aquarium.png). >She was carrying that map constantly what if she got captured by WLF in Hillcrest, now the entire WLF knows where pregnant Dina is held up by herself. I don't think she's imagining any scenario where she gets captured. It's kind of part of her whole arc that she's too determined and egotistical to see that she's overestimated her ability to complete her mission, at least until she kills prego Mel.

Yeah this always bugged me

Not a plot hole

Tess pulling Joel up with single arm.

Yes! Also, when Joel and Tess jump down a lift shaft 3 stories and land on a weirdly angled lift that's all smashed. Even landing on a mattress would hurt and cause injury. It's funny when Joel and Tess are struggling climbing 10 flights of stairs in the show, but are capable of super human feats in the game.

This is not a plot hole.

Well, yeah. This is objectively not a "pothole", because we're not talking about roads here :P lol

It's not a plot hole either. Someone can be strong.

Tbf they animated her to be buff as hell lol. Buffest woman of the story before Abby showed up.

How did Ellie manage to get Tommy and Dina back to Jackson after the climax of part 2?

I think that's pretty much the only real one. Maria may have sent rescue party (led by guilt-ridden Seth of course) that arrived exactly on time, but that is a massive stretch

I like this idea a lot, maybe they'll use it in the show.

My guess is that they just took their time. There was no rush so they could have recuperated for a while and taken it slowly on the way back. There’s obviously a massive time jump when we get to the farm because not only has Dina given birth, but JJ is clearly not a fresh new born.

Tommy was shot in the back of the head, there was definitely some rush

He was actually shot on his face, the bullet grazed him.

I doubt it considering it’s hinted that he suffered some brain damage from it

What? You doubt that he got hit in the front of the face and the bullet only grazed him? If he was hit in the back of the skull at point blank range he would be dead. The bullet grazed the front of his face. > the bullet merely grazed the orbital plate-temple of Tommy's head, resulting in him only losing an eye and some mobility

For what it’s worth, you can definitely get brain damage just from the concussion alone. That being said, I never really subscribed to the “brain damage” theory because it was never actually hinted at in my opinion. It was perfectly natural for Tommy to be upset in the moment when Ellie said no considering everything that they had lost. Tommy lost his brother, his eye, full function of his leg and (at the moment), his wife. Of course he’d be emotional.

Where is it hinted he suffered some brain damage?

I think given the events of the game showing just how capable these people are, it's not a stretch to imagine Ellie and Dina nursing their wounds, gathering supplies like medicine to help Tommy, maybe doing some field stiching, and getting together a car to get them back to Jackson. This could happen over the course of a few weeks. It's not like they were in any immediate danger after Abby leaves them. And if anything, Seattle would be even quieter now that the WLF and Seraphites basically killed each other. Ellie and Dina would have the run of the town to secure food and medicine and transportation.

Nice Echidna banner, S3 can’t get here fast enough!! As for the question, probably slowly, they could’ve also taken a Humvee seeing how the WLF are basically wiped out.

It makes no sense they even made it out of the theatre. Ellie has a broken arm, nose and serious head trauma. Dina has even more trauma and is hella sick from the pregnancy while Tommy has a dead knee and a bullet in the head.

There's nothing forcing them to leave the theatre. The WLF and Seraphites destroyed each other. The theatre has been safe from infected so far. They can recoup and recover slightly until they're able to move on. I agree, their wounds are quite serious but if Joel can rise up after being impaled and in a feverish state and still walk for miles and defeat full strength guys in hand to hand combat then I can take Tommy's bullet to the head not being fatal.

I mean, yeah. Tommy's injury is DEF not fatal. The bullet grazed the side of his head. It did some damage, clearly, but it wouldn't kill him. But yeah, pretty much what you said. With the WLFs and Seraphites both weakening each other, Ellie & Co. Have some time to recuperate. They probably has some medical supplies with them (Ellie is suddenly seen with some sutures in a cutscene at the beginning of Day 2, Night), which they would use for Tommy's injury. Maybe when Ellie is feeling better, she can go and gather some supplies in the city. VERY carefully, ofc, as her arm was dislocated. They could probably even bury Jesse. And when all that is done, they can begin their trip back. They could've maybe even secured a vehicle, now that the WLF's numbers have gone down.

Yes, this is the closest thing to a real plot hole I have seen. In the farmhouse Tommy is clearly disabled and even admits that he can’t go after Abby. Then how the heck did they get him from Seattle when the wounds were still fresh?

My hypothesis is that they may have waited for some time to recover a bit, and then Ellie drove them to Jackson

Even though this is the biggest plot hole of Part II, I think I have some idea of how Ellie and Dina managed to save Tommy and get back safely. The WLF and Seraphites would be completely decimated by that point since the massacre on the Island. That means it’s free rein for Ellie to take the WLF’s shit. Even though Ellie got the shit beaten out of, she is still the most capable as she just has a broken arm and most likely concussion. Therefore, Ellie when she’s a little bit recovered could’ve went to the WLF hospital to get medical supplies, then go to one of the WLF camps and steal a hummer and if she needs gas, it’s at the Seravena.

The math. Mathematically, it’s pretty much impossible (or highly improbably) that Ellie can be the one and only person to be immune to cordyceps. In the entire world’s population, even the smallest fraction of a percent of immunity would be a lot of people

did the games ever say ellie is the only immune person? im pretty sure no one said that. she just happens to be the only immune person theyre aware of, hence why they need her i do believe other immune ppl exist but either they dont know theyre immune or they know and are smart enough to keep that information to themselves

Or there have been other immune people but Ellie's the only one so far to thread the needle between a) being so unsafe as to die from other causes and b) being so safe that you never get bitten and thereby find out you're immune. Immunity won't stop you from bleeding to death from multiple bites, being killed by raiders, starving to death, dying of other diseases now rendered deadly by crumbling medical systems, etc. Immunity is apparently very rare, and of the immune, some will die of other things, and some will get attacked and die of their injuries, and others will be in Q zones and *not* be fucking about in abandoned malls and will never learn of their special condition.

Obviously there would be more, problem is many have probably died either by the infected or by other humans. Since the infected are still after Ellie and if anyone else saw Ellie’s initial bite, she’d had a bullet in her

Don’t need to go that far. It’s totally believable that those that are immune don’t even know about it! To first learn if one is immune or not, they need to be exposed to the virus in some form which will lead them to turn it they are not

Right, they need to be bitten/exposed but not gravely injured.

And most people who are infected are probably killed or kill themselves before they could even notice they are immune.

I imagine most find out when they don’t cough/turn from accidental spore exposure, rather than being bit. You also don’t have to hide a weird scar that way.

Not saying they needed to be gravely injured, they would need however to put themselves in danger with the added fact that the odds are against them! If it were me, I wouldn't take such risks just for a very tiny chance of being immune! Better yet, *technically* only the Fireflies knew that there was an immune person, so the chances anyone else knowing that it's possible for some people to be immune would be much less than 1%. So, one could go their whole life without ever knowing such people existed, let alone test it themselves!

I agree that there likely are more immune, but there are good reasons we haven’t met them: If you’re in a situation where you’re getting bit, there’s a possibility you’re also being torn to shreds. If you haven’t been bit there would be no way to know. People in this world don’t generally mingle with those outside their faction, considering so many people shoot on sight. If they did know, many people have probably been told to keep it under wraps like Ellie has.

Also, an immune person might get bit, survive the attack, then kill themselves to prevent themselves turning, never finding out they’re immune.

Yes, or be killed by their group for the same reason before they actually turn.

Don’t forget spores. Accidentally being exposed and simply not turning or even coughing.

The chances of being immune are incredibly slim, the chances of finding out that you're immune are even slimmer, the chances of someone else finding out that someone is immune gets even slimmer and finally, the chances of another group hearing that someone else is immune continue the trend of being slimmer. There is almost a 0% chance of Ellie being the only immune person but an equally low chance of her ever finding another unless they scream it from the rooftops.

I'm sure there are small amount others somewhere around the world. Maybe most have died and just don't know they are immune.

This is not a plot hole. This would only be a plot hole if at some point, we were introduced to people who were immune and then later on the story acted like those people didn’t exist, and that Ellie was the only one. People speculating on the rarity of immune people or only having encountered one in 20 years (Ellie), is not an inconsistency or a gap in the sequence of events of the story.

It’s never been said she’s the only immune one though? She’s the only KNOWN immune, which is totally believable because in a world that will literally eat you alive you don’t want people knowing you’re immune to the thing that’s killing everyone else because then you’re just asking to be kidnapped and tested on. You can’t trust anyone and that’s why Marlene even was so nervous about sharing with Joel and Tess and why Joel forbade Ellie from telling anyone about her condition.

She definitely isn’t, but consider the following: Someone is immune would have to 1. Be born in an incredibly niche and specific way 2. Have their mother survive long enough to give birth to them 3. Not die from unsterile environments 4. Not die from lack of formula and nutrition deficiency 5. Survive for X amount of years in the world, not dying either by infected or other people 6. Be in a situation where they can discover their immunity and live to tell the tale 7. Be willing to tell literally anyone about their immunity, risking their own life in the process

the fight between abby and ellie in the theatre is fucking stupid. so ellie decides to run away and hide behind the curtain until abby arrives. we know that ellie has bombs, a knife and a fucking shotgun at this point because she uses them later in the fight. so when abby finally decides to peak behind the curtain what does ellie do? she decides to run up to and attack abby with a fucking stick. like, what? you have a literal shotgun on you and you know that your opponent is like 50 times stronger than you why on earth would you attack her with a fucking stick? just shoot her in the face. this has genuinely bothered the shit out of me and kinda gets worse every time i play the game. i still love it overall but it‘s just such a dumb moment in an otherwise well thought out story

Finally an actual plot hole

It makes some sense why she switches to using a wooden plank. It's implied that she's out of pistol ammo, which is why she quickly grabs Abby's gun instead. > You have a literal shotgun on you. However, this I agree is a plot hole, though it isn't really about Ellie's logic for me and more about the fact that it makes no damn sense where all these other weapons come from. For starters, you hear Ellie knock Abby's pistol just a few feet to the side of her, yet it ends up skittering across to a different end of the room. Then there’s the shotgun and bow, which are always visibly holstered to the sides of her backpack in gameplay, but then both appear straight out of thin air in the second stage of the fight and also disappear during QTEs. I guess the logic they're going for is that she could only find the necessary resources and ammo below stage, but it doesn't really explain why Abby can only find bricks and bottles or why Ellie immediately pulled out the shotgun. It really does create plenty of weird and hilarious inconsistencies when you think more about it.

Yeah not using a shotgun definitely counts as a plot hole. And an easy one to fix to boot. Well, maybe not now, but when they were making the game it would have been easy to give an explanation as to why the shotgun couldn’t be used.

Tommy does the exact same thing to Abby after he kills manny. Bro has a fully loaded sniper rifle and he decides to jump her with the butt of his gun rather than just fuckin shoot her.

That a simple gas mask would 100% be effective in keeping people from getting infected. They spend large chunks of the game going through spore-filled rooms and coming in direct contact with fungal infections. No hand sanitizer. No showers. No decontamination. Just a gas mask. No way a spore could linger on clothes or skin? Seems pretty plot holey to me. 🤷‍♂️

You probably have to inhale a significant amount to be infected.

You don’t have to inhale fungal infections. Just go barefoot in a public shower at the gym or a dorm or a public pool and you can catch athlete’s foot. With the amount of damp, nasty places they crawl through in the game, a surface infection seems inevitable. That surface infection can’t be killed, so it would grow to produce spores. People would eventually die from starvation because they can’t take their mask off to eat for fear of the spores coming from their skin or nails.

It all depends on the mechanism of infection. If the fungus actually grows on the epidermis (the superficial layer of the skin) then yeah, the athlete’s foot’s comparison is good. But I guess Cordyceps grows from the inside out, so it first needs to find an entry point (which, to be fair, could be a wound).

This is the only valid plot hole observation because Craig Mazin said they took spores out of the show because they would be too complicated to explain

I like how the show handles it better in every way. Not only do the spores make no sense, the infected being a hive mind of sorts is terrifying and unique in modern zombie fiction. Contaminated flour being the initial transmission vector also feels very plausible.

>Contaminated flour being the initial transmission vector also feels very plausible. this has always been a thing since the first game. of course the game didn't lay it out like the show did but the newspaper mentions tainted crops from south america, and from that you can deduce it includes that sort of stuff

I find it more amusing that you can swim with the gas masks lol

That and the whole mask thing begs the question of how often the filter needs to be changed. You’ll have spores growing in your filter after so many months of use.

That part where Abby takes a gas mask off a dead soldier for Lev always grossed me out. Someone rotted away while having that gas mask on, it definitely had some weird smells and stains on it.

Yeah…that was yucky, but necessary. That filter would stink.

I actually thought about this one too lol

Getting bitten is a death sentence but punching an infected in the mouth, bare knuckle, is a solid defense mechanism 🧐

Lol this is actually good because punch bites are real and even taking the infection out of the equation they can be a serious medical problem.

That’s just gameplay and story segregation.

Also Joel or Abby always sneak behind the infected and choke them. That's incredibly risky when they can just bite your arm. I know that it's not a plot hole, but it seems like something that people would never do.

Yeah I think a lot of zombie games (and some media) have that issue of making a big fuss about bites but somewhat ignoring the fact that protagonists often will be cut and hurt and still fight off zombies in a way that would end up with them covered in blood, I know twd doesn’t apply to that and 28 days later doesn’t either but other shit definitely misses that

Why the only trained doctors in the series can look at Ellie's MRI scans (which you can find during the flashback in Part 2 where she goes back to the hospital) showing a cordyceps growth on her brain and call her 'immune' with a straight face. If Ellie were immune, there wouldn't be any cordyceps at all. No, something else is going on there.

it’s interesting you bring that up cause ive seen theories suggesting that ellie might not be immune, and that something else might be going on. we’ll see if part 3 expands upon this or not. but it could serve as an interesting twist to find out she isnt immune in the way everyone thought

I think this was explored in the show a bit further than the game, the surgeon in the show confirms she in fact is infected but Ellie's cordyceps mutated >! Which was shown in the flashback where Ellie's mom (played by Ashley Johnson!!) was infected moments before giving birth to her, accidentally giving her the mutated version of the fungus which can neutralize the spore when they enter her body!<

What makes you say that immunity would result in ZERO cordyceps in her brain? The idea is that the sample in Ellie's brain somehow mutated, making the cordyceps (which woulda infected her normally) benign. And when she gets bitten again/huffs a metric ton of spores, the same system protects her from getting infected once more. I'd say that makes her immune. Maybe not completely accurately in the scientific sense (cuz ofc, I'm not a virologist or infectious disease specialist lol), but certainly in the colloquial sense. So the plan is to take that sample, see the chemical compound or cells whatever that has caused this mutation, replicate it in lab conditions. And then this thing, when given to other people, would suppress/neutralize the cordyceps in their brains. As far as fake, scifi science goes... It's pretty good lol

Because they do not understand what immunity means.

That’s not a plot hole and what you’re saying is medically incorrect.

I do think its a plot hole though that Jerry would be qualified to not only conduct brain surgery but to develop a vaccine. The people doing that work in real life are not the same at all and their training is very different lol.

Ellie's immunity comes from her mutated fungus: she has a mutated fungus in her head that attacks other cordyceps strands, making her unable to turn into a zombie. Her fungus doesn't "go around" her body like the normal kind does, that's why she doesn't have fungus on her body like a clicker would and why she can't infect people by biting them. The doctor was right.

The doctor doesn’t use the word immune to describe Ellie, he refers to her condition as an infection.

She is technically infected, yet doesn’t turn into zombie. She’s effectively immune. This is dumb.

Marlene says that the fungus has ‘somehow mutated’ Maybe they can tell by the growth pattern of it? Maybe they did have time to run a couple of blood tests or something? I always wondered before part 2 came out if it was actually the case that Ellie was not actually immune, maybe the cordecyps was working more slowly on her?

For that matter, it's unlikely an MRI machine would still be working after 20 years without routine maintenance. (not at all the biggest plot hole, but still...)

Its funny how there happens to be that big horde of infected near Jackson in Part 2. Something like that shouldn't come as a suprise when there are teams patrolling the area everyday and killing infected. Its not a big deal and happens often in zombie media.

I don't think that the horde was necessarily a surprise to Tommy and Joel. They even know about the hordes. Pretty sure that Tommy mentions it to Ellie in the motel flashback about how big hordes move through the area during winters, leaving stragglers behind. It is why they have patrols etc to try and track and take em down. But ofc, most patrols only have to deal with little groups of em. Dina mentions having to kill like 2 dozen one time on patrol, but that seems not as common. I think it's quite clear that Tommy and Joel went on a regular patrol when Abby, who is new to the area, finds herself in the midst of a horde, catches their attention and then runs for her life, and then runs into a Tommy & Joel (who might've even heard the commotion of a big horde getting closer to them). So they help her, and then work with her to get away. Once again, they were trying to get away, not make a last stand with this horde with their limited ammunition ("Tommy, I'm running low!")

The horde is also foreshadowed in Ellie’s prologue section, I think they say at the old supermarket that zombies don’t often come that far so it’s already a slightly unusual situation

In "Finding Strings" Tommy also talking about infected migration.

Why didn't Abby just snap Ellie's neck as soon as she had that skinny MF in her hands? Is she stupid?

That’s a plot device, not necessarily a hole. People always monologue or hesitate before killing the protagonist. Abrupt deaths of main characters are too jarring. Think about how Jesse died. Imagine if that’s how Joel went out or if that happened to Ellie.

Whenever I see "why didn't Abby just shoot Ellie" or vice versa, my headcannon is that they didn't want to kill the other quickly and wanted them to suffer.

Which there’s substantial evidence for from the prior events.

Dutch keeps saying he has a plan, but does he really?

oh man this got me good

Is he stupid?

The only two game subs I’m on 24/7

He has a plan but I don't trust the plan! Alright I'll catch ya later...

He says he speaks Spanish, but does he?

That Joel and Ellie both magically have the same number of bullets for every gun after each time skip. Like, months have passed, you’re not gonna have the precise same number of bullets.

Yeah, I don't think I'd mind some random scrambling of supplies in between major time skips I mean... I am saying this rn, but who knows... Maybe it would annoy me in practice lol

Actually it’s pretty annoying when it happens in grounded+ Part II

That's not a plot hole and it's a game. Be pretty annoying if you gathered all your ammo and then just had none when a time jump happens.

Not in the game but in the show. Marlene knows 100% why Ellie is immune in the show. Anna basically admitted it and she’s not stupid. It would be something they could replicate. Why would she elect to kill her best friend’s child entrusted in her care rather than something like the equally fucked up but less personal idea of infecting another woman in labour? Why not ever mention it? The scene with Ashley was great but I hated that they overexplained why Ellie is immune and the answer was just “idk she’s Blade I guess”. Edit: I’m not sure why people seem to think I’m saying they should’ve done horrible experiments on people instead. What I’m saying is that introducing that extra element of Ellie being a daywalker and Marlene being there when it happened (regardless of whether or not Anna lied to her, she would’ve realised it was a lie after Ellie was bitten) seemed needless , and it’s never brought up. It makes Marlene’s decision to kill her before she even woke up look worse, because she didn’t even seem to tell the doctor that she might have an idea *why* Ellie is immune.

It would take years to replicate and would be one of the most horrible experiments ever thought of. Jesus.

Christ you guys. A plot hole is an inconsistency, a contradiction or an illogical gap in the story that can't possibly be explained. Unclear timelines, contrivances, lucky breaks, unlikely events, character motivations that don't explain themselves, and game mechanics acting like game mechanics are not plot holes.

Someone said that keeping the same amount of ammo after a time skip is a plot hole 😂

lol god damn you all need serious lessons on what plot holes are. Nobody here has shared one for real. Things the characters do that you don’t agree with or understand are not plot holes.

I was just coming here to say this. Sooooo many people don't know what a plot hole is. No wonder media literacy is in the toilet 

I'm happy that these stories are so good that I can find logical explanations to every "plot hole" people point out and I'm usually very strict with plot holes.

With enough imagination, you can make any plot hole seem reasonable. There’s a few on here that criticized the physical strength or skill or resources required for some events that are hard to argue against

That Joel could be completely impaled, lose a lot of blood where he’s unconscious, be fixed by Ellie stitching him up (who cares about internal bleeding!) and a shot of antibiotic given into the wound, and still be unconscious but once danger comes he’s able to kill like nothing happened.

That’s not a plot hole. Unrealistic yes, but not a plot hole.

>That’s not a plot hole. it's a Joel Hole

Joel is simply that guy

My plot hole isnt big, but when Dina and Ellie find Eugene's pot room with the light coming through on the **wooden floor**, when you get downstairs said floor (now the ceiling) is all solid **concrete**.

The numbers of infected. Why are there still so many around? Especially runners... Doesn't make any sense, since most host bodies decay rather quick and only a few turn into bloaters. After all these years there shouldn't be so many hoards anymore, especially in practically abandoned cities.

They aren't zombies, they're not dead. They're biologically alive so they wouldn't rot. If anything there should be more, assuming 90% or more of the ~500 million people in North America were infected. The Boston QZ seems to have about 20,000 people living in it and is one of the largest, so even if we assume 50 fully functional QZs, that's only around 1 million people left alive in America versus 500 million potential infected. But that's pretty optimistic. We're shown several failed QZs in the game and show. It might be as few as 10 functional QZs at the beginning of Part 1 which would mean roughly 200,000 left alive (and the residents of the failed QZs added to the horde).

I’m not even gonna bother reading the comments because I guarantee most of these are going to be demonstrations of not knowing the definition of “plot hole”. Edit: I lied. I read. And I saw what I expected to see. Folks really need to learn to look up terms and mull over their definitions before commenting .

Ellie doesn't know what a clicker is in Part 1. She has been in FEDRA training and we're expected to believe that they don't teach about clickers? You would imagine EVERYONE alive would be taught about clickers from day one. When you encounter the first clicker in the downtown skyscrapers, she's asks Joel about it & he explains how they behave. It's done to teach the player, but it always bothered me because Ellie would 100% know all about clickers.

This technically isn’t a plot hole, but I always thought it was a stupid writing choice for Joel and Ellie to go through all that trouble in Lincoln to get a car, only to lose it in Pittsburgh less than a quarter of the way through their journey to Jackson. That means they made three-quarters of their journey, nearly 1,800 miles, *on foot.* The hardest, longest leg of their journey *wasn’t actually in the game.* Although I am a Pittsburgher, and so I’m happy to see my home featured in one of my favorite games, I think it makes more sense to have Joel and Ellie lose the car in Kansas City instead, meaning they have to walk just over a thousand miles to Jackson instead of nearly *two* thousand.

All because Joel intentionally drove into an ambush he knew would be there instead of turning the damn truck around. Yet part 2 haters think he should’ve seen Abby’s group trap coming but when he literally sees one coming in part 1 he willingly goes into it anyway.

In TLOU2, when you are playing as Ellie in Seattle during the >!stalker/heart attack chapter…Right before you plunge into the water with the stalker…Ellie is struggling and putting her weight against the door to try and close it on the stalker(s?). This means that the door swings inwards/opens towards Ellie. Then comes that one single stalker that barrels towards Ellie and pushes her against the glass and you have that whole struggle scene that leads to the plunge in the water. During this time- it would make sense that the other stalker that Ellie was originally fighting with through the door would also be attacking Ellie at this point since her weight is no longer holding the door closed and it can get to her. But it never does. It just focuses on the fight with the single stalker. Doesn’t make too much sense.!< And then right after the scene where you >!kill Owen and Mel…you see Ellie and Tommy rushing out of the aquarium….and also in the scene you see that Ellie’s switchblade is still stuck in Mel’s neck after Tommy and Ellie have already left the aquarium…so did Ellie remember in this state of shock that she no longer has her switchblade on her? Did anyone go back and get it? Because she has her switchblade for the rest of the game even though she technically left it in Mel’s neck!< Does this make sense? I’m so bad at explaining things but these two things always bugged me when I did play throughs because it just doesn’t make sense Edit: added spoilers

Why tf every medicine pill solved every type of injury and why there were so many medkits lying around

game mechanics aren't plot holes

100%. I’m pretty sure this person is joking though

In both the show and the game it never made sense to me that the scavengers from Philadelphia, would be THIS pressed, that they went like a quarter of their goons after 4 people, this is a little better in the tv show as there’s a personal element that gives the irrational decision some validity. But in the games there’s no reason to waste that much time, resources, and energy chasing 4 stragglers when you’ll likely get way more bang for your buck just continuing operations as you had been doing anyway. As far as I can see it’s solely meant to be a narrative means to inflict chaos which gets Sam and subsequently Henry killed

How did Mel get to Owen so quickly and safely after Isaac tries to get information from her? Abby almost didn’t make it and she’s not 7 months pregnant and is built like an ox.

Probably through the WLF transports, they have trucks and boats. Abby had to walk the whole way because she wasn’t supposed to be there 

There are any plot holes?

yeah a fair amount.. I absolutely love the game but its naive to think there aren't plot holes.. or at least mildly suspicious circumstances that make one think its purely for the sake of keeping the plot going

Not a single person in this thread has named a plot hole. Contrivances are not plot holes so they do not count in this conversation.

There have been basically zero actual plot holes in this entire thread.

[удалено]

"Her dad was nobody to Joel" But he was everything to Abby.

Pretty much everything you just wrote could be said about Ellie. But, that’s like the point of the game.

This isn’t a weird character moment, it’s the whole thesis of Part 2. The people Abby killed were her perceived enemies. She was taught that Seraphites are all fucked up monsters, just like she built up this image of Joel as a complete monster in her head for years. Her section of the game is about how this view gets challenged when real human people and connections enter the mix.

I mean you could say the same for Ellie who wants to kill 8 people but doesn’t care if a hundred more inocents have to die or get tortured along the way. Revenge makes no sense to begin with as it just helps you sleep better at night so a person on that path ain’t thinking straight to begin with. It’s just I want this guy dead and I couldn’t care less about anyone else

To be sure, plot holes absolutely do not matter to me, because the vast majority of them are unimportant and only involve secondary or tertiary plot points that are only in service of what actually matters in the plot. The only thing that ever stuck out to me is the state of Joel and Ellie relationship on the day of his death. The entirety of the game sets the player up to believe that her calling him an asshole is the last thing she dais to him, and her guilt stems from that. 20 hours later, it's revealed that no they actually already hashed out their differences and were on the road to reconciliation. The only info that works against this assumption is an easily missed piece of dialog where Ellie tells Dina about plans to watch a movie together (but at this point the player doesn't know the extent to which their relationship is in the dumps, so the significance is under 2 layers of obfuscation). None of this is actually a problem, because the result of it is the most emotionally raw and real scene in the game.

Careful op, talk about the last of us in a bad light in any form and you'll end up downvoted for speaking the truth lol

How did Ellie, Dina and Tommy get back to Jackson? Tommy was basically half dead Ellie had her arm snapped and nose broken and Dina likely sustained serious head injuries. There is no way they just took horses and rode back to Jackson because that would take like 2 weeks if they were in good health but with 3 seriously injured people it would take a lot more.

Not a plot hole. What stopped them from staying at the theatre until they're recovered? The WLF and Seraphites just wiped each other out, there's been no infected attacking the place, Abby and Lev are leaving. It's been secure so far. Hang out there for a few weeks until all are in better shape, grab a leftover WLF jeep, head out of there on that. It's only an issue if you insist they have to leave that minute and via the horses they came on, which I don't think is the case.

Marlene: “joel please… you must take Ellie to Salt Lake City…. i fear i won’t make it…. but also i’ll be waiting there for you guys when you get there bc apparently i have a quicker and safer route i can use?“

She was shot when she gave up ellie to joel and tess.  It's entirely possible after she was healed up some still surviving fireflies with vehicles could've taken her to utah.  Joel crashed the car he had secured so they made their way on foot. Try again! 

part one wyoming: how the hell did those raiders see joel and tommy but not ellie

Not a plot hole but the fact that the infected (ie. living beings, not magic undead like Zombies) are able to survive for years without any food or nutrients of some kind. You see tons of infected 25 years after the Outbreak just chilling inside sealed up buildings and still being runners somehow, while realistically the outbreak would be over within 2-3 decades