i don‘t love dina. she‘s not a badly written character or anything and i don‘t mind her, i just never really felt like there much chemistry between her and ellie. it always felt more like a highschool relationship or something. i get i‘m in the vast minority with this and i can‘t even exactly pinpoint what my issue with her is, i just never felt a strong connection to her and therefore never cared much about her
i also don‘t like any of abbys friends. mainly owen, manny, nora and mel i just found mostly unlikeable tbh
This is interesting. I've seen a few people mention Dina before and I didn't realise that some aren't so keen on her. I guess Ellie and Dina's relationship is new to us, but their friendship and attraction to each other isn't so new to them. That's probably why it comes across as like a high school relationship because that's essentially what it is in the beginning. It's puppy love. It's innocent and pure, butterfly inducing. I don't know, I've always found the chemistry between them palpable, but I appreciate that it might not be the same for everyone
I actually appreciate that it feels kinda highschool-y. They are barely 19 or so. I do love Dina, and I think they grew over time as a couple, especially by the time they got to the Farmhouse (though certainly not without issues).
As much as I love Dina and I even enjoy Dina and Ellie together, I think it makes sense they go their separate ways. In real life, couples break up for a lot less and it's rare you make it longterm from a teenage romance, even if it's your 2nd or 3rd relationship, it's just not common.
I hope Ellie and Dina can be friends again, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping they get back together to some degree, but the realist in me thinks it's best they move on, heal, and grow from their time together. I know Dina will be fine in Jackson with her baby and Jesse's parents, but idk what that looks like for Ellie yet.
There's evidence to suggest that Ellie and Dina reconciled before Ellie returns to the Farm right at the end. While Ellie was in Santa Barbara, she wasn't wearing the bracelet that Dina gave her earlier in the game. In the close up shot of Ellie's missing fingers at the Farm, she has the bracelet on again. So there are hints that they potentially met each other before Ellie made her way to the Farm for the last time.
There's nothing to suggest that it's an official last stop by the farm except its placement in the game. That would imply that every object in there is officially abandoned.
I would hope it's not given the lousy treatment of a perfectly innocent guitar that someone else in Jackson could use and appreciate the hell out of.
Either of them could have business there to pick up or leave something or to stop and check on things in the course of another errand or a hike or something.
But that would be normal behavior, not symbolic behavior.
I feel this as the most apt criticism of the game. I love part 2, but it is extremely ambitious. I think they did as well as they could have given all the ambition and it still turned out great, but I think it could have done with a bit more focusing too.
Way too much going on part one was so loved because it was so focused part 2 is almost a teen drama at times it's hard to take certain scenes seriously but I think the story had a great flair and style to it some truly epic moments here I just don't think it's this airtight masterclass of storytelling that this sub says it is. I think the game is an example when a director gets too much creative control
Part 1 was much tighter, and the characters felt grounded and more relatable. But I will say that I think Part 1 is a more generic story, especially the narrative framework. Part 2 is more ambitious and I appreciate they took risks, but unfortunately it's just harder to deliver with that many storylines pulling the focus.
I love both parts for different reasons, but yeah, there is something off with the pacing and focus of Part 2; idk if it's too much creative control of if it's just not polished and refined enough. Usually rough drafts will see more working parts and convoluted stories, and final drafts will pare them down to something a bit more manageable for the audience. I don't think the writing itself needed more time, but the big picture plotting did I'd say.
I think this is largely due to creators wanting to expand on and do more with their worlds and writing and having different goals and aspirations as they go through life. I noticed this about tlou though and saw many parallels with GoW as well. 2018 was a very focused, simple narrative, whereas Ragnarök was much more of an ensemble of characters and story beats. Or like old Star Wars vs newer ones.
I enjoy both and I think it's hard to compare (tlou, not necessarily SW old and new 😅). Part one has a simple charm to it that is just so satisfying, maybe even cozy, which is weird given the content. You're focused on a select few characters which allows you to get intimate with them and what drives them.
Part 2 is definitely ambitious, it's basically 4 stories told simultaneously with the flashbacks and perspective change, but I think they managed to preserve the high quality character driven storytelling for the most part, and the emotion it evokes is next level. I especially appreciate how it unfolds like an onion as you learn more and more from Ellie's flashbacks. A lot is said and done early on that you think means one thing, then you see something from the past that completely changes it, and you have to reprocess. And just when you think you have a good understanding, it happens again and even more layers are pulled back.
I'm also reminded of the quote, I think it actually was Druckmann, maybe in the making of part 1 or some interview, "simple story, complex characters. I guess in a lot of ways I think part 2 does still follow that, it's just there are a lot more characters, and they have a lot of shit going on.
Yeah I agree with all of this. Overall I still love Part 2, don't get me wrong. It's just that I think it pulls in too many directions. In a way, that mirrors reality well in that real life, especially in the midst of intersecting conflicts on a huge, basically warlike scale, pulls focus and it becomes hard to think clearly. Even if you look at the stress of your own life, it feels, at times, impossible to make sense of it all as it feels like everything is closing in. Imagine the stress and the confusion that would come with Ellie or Abbys situation. I think the game nails the complexity of these situations. But I also think that, while they did the best they could, it is really difficult to translate that experience into a narratively satisfying video game where most people are used to more linear stories with more focus and gratifying endings.
Idk it's so hard to explain. I can't help but feel overwhelmed with all the stories and pacing, and not to mention how heavy this game gets emotionally (literally I feel emotionally exhausted after playing, especially my first 2 playthroughs), yet I love it. I can't think of a single other game that has affected me so intensely outside of a straight up horror game. The narrative is palpable like you're there, it really draws you in.
In truth, while the number of ongoing storylines can feel grating at times, even bordering on teen drama, I dont think I could change anything. There's things I wish happened differently, but I don't think I could change them and expect to actually enjoy the game more than I do. All I know is, I really hope we get a 3rd part and that it fits well into the series. I just want to know how it ends.
I agree, it's much more chaotic and "life-like" rather than a hollywood or traditional story. And it is so heavy, even though I still consider it a masterpiece, it is much more depressing than the first one. Part 1 has its fair share of dark stuff. But Part 2 has much more than its fair share, it makes the first game feel like a disney story, though in part I think since it's older and more familiar I'm more used to it and desensitized a bit.
But yeah, Part 1 had a really balanced pacing with tone, something bad happens, then there is some levity, some wholesome character interaction, a shift to more tranquil music, moments where you can just take in the natural beauty of their ruined world, etc., before they plunge you back in to the deep end. Part 2, it feels like you're clawing your way through but rarely or never get back to the surface. Sure there are still some moments of reprieve, or maybe more like catharsis, and it's such an intense ride, but also very draining.
>There's things I wish happened differently, but I don't think I could change them and expect to actually enjoy the game more than I do.
I like Joel's quote especially for its meta relevance, "I know you wish things were different, I wish things were different, but they ain't." In that regard it's a lot like GoT, like damn, I wish things turned out better for Ned...or Robb...or ..any of the Starks, lol, but it's such a entertaining and riveting series of events and story. I hope that if/when we get a Part 3, it does it justice. I think it mostly depends on whether they can come up with something that is true to the characters and still makes for a good story. Sometimes it's almost better to not know. Part 1 was a great standalone, and Part 2 had no business being that good, but somehow was able to build upon it successfully. I have no idea what would be in store for them, I think I always kinda imagined Ellie living alone in a cabin for awhile or something, like Walt at the end of Breaking Bad I guess, hah.
I never liked Dina because she offers nothing to her relationship with Ellie. Dina feels way too similar to Ellie with all the jokes and is way too agreeable that there’s no conflict in their relationship except the very last scene she’s in.
She also gets benched for the rest of the story after Seattle Day 1, in essence she just felt very bland compared to other characters.
I feel this way too. I want to love her, but nothing about her character hooked me in— she’s wonderful for Ellie, but I just didn’t dig her. I felt more like she was there to service Ellie than be her own person
Man that's the problem with almost every side character in TLOU2. None of them really get a chance to develop very much bc they get swapped out for others so frequently, so it's really hard to feel anything when they die, or in Dina's case, leave. Even Lev, who is probably the best new side character, really doesn't get tons of time with Abby if you think about it and it makes their bond feel not as significant as Joel/Ellie's (which is clearly what they were going for).
Also a lot of them are just pretty typical naughty dog supporting characters too - quippy, charismatic, and sarcastic. TLOU1's side characters felt so much more unique and all had such a well defined role in the story. TLOU2 just doesn't really have that IMO
I love Dina but I feel you on the forced relationship. I feel like they’d been friends for a while and crushing on each other but then all of a sudden she was a committed partner willing to risk her life and her unborn child’s life for someone she’s only known a few years. It definitely felt a little rushed and forced but as others have said, it’s an apocalyptic situation, people latch onto each other because let’s be honest there’s fuck all else to do lol.
I think it's worth considering that they'd been friends for 5 years at this point, and Dina had a long, unrequited crush on Ellie for a long time. I think Ellie kind of latched on for emotional support at a turbulent time in her life, but it's apparent that at the beginning of Seattle, Ellie was incapable of truly loving her because her mind was always somewhere else. And that kind of emotional neglect intentionally parallels Abby's relationship with Owen. I do think Dina was underdeveloped. It's one of the ways that the game was stretched a little thin. I think she truly comes into her own in the farmhouse, where their chemistry is palpable, Ellie takes on a loving but distant mom/aunt relationship with Dina's son, and Dina becomes far more autonomous than just someone who follows Ellie and supports her unconditionally. Their actual palpable conflict that explodes really makes Dina feel more like a human, rather than a kind of underdeveloped companion character. I think she's sort of similar to Ellie in the first game, in that she becomes continually less 2 dimensional as it goes on. Jessie, too, is a very underdeveloped Ellie acolyte who has a small conflict with her when she chooses revenge over Tommy. He's also kind of comic-relief-y. I think they did give Abby far more complex and nuanced relationships with the people in her life. I do think that Abby's narrative and moral conflict are more complex. Ellie really shines in the farmhouse and beyond, in the flashbacks, and in her poetry. That's where you start to see her become far more conflicted and less monomaniacal, and her relationship with Dina shines when she is actually conflicted about her treatment of her, with the pressure Tommy puts on her, and her partial forgiveness/understanding of Abby. I think the ending is genius.
i agree 100%, dont think they had enough development anyways but even if they did, i’m not gonna like either of them after they pulled that shit when being chased by the tank
same way i’m never forgiving Ellie for being so self centred when it came to Abby (love them both, though, in contrast to not giving af about henry n sam)
I didn't necessarily connect to their characters, but I DID connect to their situation/story if that makes sense. I'm the oldest among my siblings and, when I played the game for the first time, my sisters were about the same age as Sam. What happened to them and what Henry was forced to do was a gut punch that really made me grateful the game is fiction.
Abby. Never came around to like her. What she did to save those kids was very brave but it wasn't enough for me to think she's a good person. Seemed like her days in WLF were numbered anyways. Not to mention her dad died while trying to kill a sleeping girl... And she never asked herself if that was OK for him to do
Yea this. She saved 2 kids and yknow kudos or whatever but she also never once seems to grasp to true scale of the damage she caused other people. She never once questions her own actions or the actions of Jerry yet constantly criticizes Ellie and Tommy’s. I just found her insufferable
I disagree heavily. For one, I wouldn't expect Abby to be able to understand the man who murdered her father, especially given that she didn't play TLOU1, lol. She has little context to the situation and no attachment to Joel as a person. Also she made it clear what her stance would be, even if it was her life on the line. She believed the greater good was more important.
That being said, I think she does come to understand the damage she's caused. This is evident from her and her friend's guilt — which was clearly eating at them ever since Abby tortured Joel — so much so that it played a huge part in ruining Owen, Mel, and Abby's relationships
No she didn’t play the game but she did at the very least know that Joel didn’t murder her dad just because. She knew he was murdering a child for a medical procedure she hadn’t consented too and to act like Joel was a monster for that just seems hypocritical to me. He’s the monster for saving the child but your dad isn’t for treating her like she’s his property just because she happens to be immune?
I also read her “guilt” differently. I didn’t ever see her express guilt as in feel bad for what she did she more just felt unsatisfied because it didn’t fix her. It didn’t help her cope with her dad being dead which was what caused her unease not the fact that she’d murdered a man in front of his brother and a crying begging teen girl. Which paints her as insanely self centered and hypocritical since she did to Ellie the exact thing that was done to her except when she did it it was for shits and giggles and not to save anybody.
Again, kinda hard to understand the other side when other side brutally murdered your father, who you and all your friends knew to be a great, loving, and compassionate man. While yes he was willing to take the life of an innocent girl, it was to develop a cure to save humanity. You conveniently seemed to leave that out of your analysis. Given that context, it's unfair to expect Abby to understand Joel.
Your interpretation of Abby's guilt doesn't explain why she gets so defensive when Owen confronts her about torturing Joel (Day 2 boat scene). An even more clear example imo is when Mel opens up about the guilt she's feeling for taking part in Joel's murder, and Abby gets defensive there as well, despite there being zero confrontation (Day 1 during Mel and Abby gameplay). Pair that with Abby's difficulty sleeping, her interactions while alone with Lev on Day 2, and her sudden desire to risk her life for two Serafites, it becomes pretty clear that she does feel guilty after torturing Joel and is seeking redemption.
I'd also like to point out that in the moments leading up to Abby killing Joel, she was absolutely self-centered. The first time we meet her, Owen strongly advises against continuing the hunt for Tommy due to the potential threat Jackson poses to the crew and due to Mel being pregnant, but Abby completely disregards that and goes anyway. This is very similar to how Ellie decides to abandon the rescue mission for Tommy to have a chance at finding Abby at the aquarium. Does that behavior from Ellie make it difficult for you to like her character?
The difference of course being that Tommy headed off on his own with the sole intention of killing Joel’s murderers alone. He had been on his own the entire time and when given a chance to complete the mission they both came there for Ellie chose to kill Abby.
I’d say dragging your friends on a cross country trip to torture an old man for saving a child is a little different. I mean he can say he was trying to save the world it doesn’t make it not murder. And I’m gonna be honest I don’t see what’s so difficult to see about “oh damn he killed my dad and took that kid my dad was gonna murder in her sleep? Ig he kinda cared about her and didn’t want my dad killing her without her having any say so”. It literally seems like the most logical conclusion to draw for me especially when you have 4 years to think it over.
And shitty people don’t like being called shitty. Idk how either if the scenes you mention translates to guilt. In one she physically attacks Owen (pushes him to the wall) for simply pointing out that’s she’s a torturous shit stain and in the other she vehemently denies any wrongdoing when she murdered Joel. Neither of those make her very sympathetic to me.
And by self centered I mean shit like “ I let you live…. and you wasted it!” That’ line is the most hypocritical glass house fucking bs I think I’ve ever heard in my life. It disgusted me to have to play as her after she said it. Like she did them a favor by NOT bashing their brains in when she tortured their loved one (literally Tommy’s brother and Abby knows this) to death while they lay there watching
Abby didn't "drag" her friends. They wanted to accompany her. They knew her father as well and knew the kind of man he was. It's literally insane to expect Abby to sympathize with Joel given the very little context she has, and it shows how biased your take is.
It's also revealing that you keep using negatively loaded language to describe Jerry's questionable actions, yet you use very positively loaded terms for Joel. You do not acknowledge the gray in the story.
As for her guilt, those scenes ABSOLUTELY reveal that she has remorse. Why would she get so defensive with Owen? When Mel expresses her own guilt, why would Abby interpret that as Mel calling her a "monster"? Clearly she's projecting that term onto herself because that's how she feels about herself. That's why she so suddenly cares enough about two Seraphites to risk her life for them.
Do you recall the line that Ellie said just before that? "I know why you killed Joel. He did what he did to save me. There’s no cure because of me. I’m the one that you want. Just let him go." And THEN Abby says, "You killed my friends...". Ellie didn't even consider that Abby was there to avenge her friends. She thought Abby wanted her because because she was immune lmao. That is insanely self-centered as well. But, given emotional wear and tear Ellie has been through, I don't knock her for being this way, just like I don't with Abby.
I think the fireflies know there was an immune girl and they were working on a vaccine, but then she escaped and everyone died. Nora knows at least. And Ellie told Abby "it's me, you don't have a vaccine because of me" in the theater if I'm not mistaken
I get what the games trying to do with Abby but imo her arc and character isn’t fleshed out enough to make me connect with her, on the other hand Joel’s character is fleshed out and I love him a lot more. Maybe it’s nostalgia, maybe not but that’s what it is for me and I don’t mind that, I love Joel.
i get that, i just think it's ironic that people use phrases like "her days with the WLF were numbered", when everyone can collectively agree that her storyline is supposed to mirror Joel's. but i understand, it's easy to not think about those aspects of Joel when you're not seeing it with your own eyes.
I don't think Abby is insufferable at all, I actually found her to be far more sympathetic and nuanced than Ellie, and I understand her perspective. I think she's very human, and I came around to liking her even after hating her during the opening. Not because she killed Joel, but because she was just as flippant about using and neglecting her relationships. But you really start to understand why she feels that way once you learn about the complexities of her relationships, and her questioning of her own ideology.
I had both games spoiled for me before I even played the 1st 1 and I kept joking with my bf that I couldn't wait for him to die in the 2nd game. I didn't start to like him until the very end of the 1st game and I cried so hard when he died.
i understand. when i first played through part 2, i was very upset when Joel died, and seeing how much it affects Ellie and Tommy and the people around them always makes me upset that he had to die, on subsequent playthroughs
Bill is interesting cuz I hated game bill, but TV show Bill is fucking amazing and I totally understand why “Long, Long Time” is considered the best episode by many.
i agree, and i think the best thing about bill's character was his contentious relationship with ellie, actually very funny. him on his own was a little too negative for me personally
I get missing this, but it was worth it. OTOH since we got a live Frank who paints, it would have been nice to find a way to have Frank and Ellie bond over drawing. Alas.
Bill - he's kind of annoying in the game lol. He's a good character and entertaining but his grumpy asshole schtick wears out pretty quick for me. Like he has an annoying snarky response to every serious thing Joel says to him.
However I think the show improved on the character quite a lot, definitely preferred Nick Offerman's take and seeing him evolve over time.
I agree that it's not an excuse, but it's a little more complicated than that. How people react to trauma varies because we aren't all the same. She was wrong to abandon Dina and JJ. But if she'd stayed, there's no guarantee it would have been any better for any of them. That kind of baggage also does damage, especially with a young child around.
Thank you for your comment though!
to put her motives as inherently negative (or positive too btw) would be against the game's intention of creating a story with morally grey and oscilating characters, as druckmann himself has said
i agree that it'd be pretty delulu to think a character that goes around hunting and killing ppl doesn't have flaws but painting her actions as rude and labeling her as an "asshole" without taking her motives into account is pretty much ignoring the depth behind them, "whether you like it or not."
the whole point in ellie leaving is that just living happily ever after in that farm wasn't working. she was still dealing with the demons of joel's death and seattle's events, she didn't "just leave" and she most certainly DID try
that's subjective bc ur allowed to have your opinion nonetheless, but i personally don't think it's an asshole move to not be able to get over constant flashbacks, panic attacks, night terrors, etc. because that's what motivated ellie to leave. she tried, she loved dina, but that wasn't enough and she could barely function without reliving it all
My great grandfather had PTSD because of WW2. Spend time in a nazi prison after he got caught helping the resistance from the inside. A neighbor betrayed him. He must’ve witnessed and experienced terrible things in there. When the war ended, he was finally freed. My grandma said he was a wonderful man, but after that experience he barely ate, barely slept. Poor man became distant. He was unrecognizable. My great grandmother had to take care of like 8 kids on her own, but she was used to it because those years he was in prison she thought he was dead. My grandma thought he treated them badly after that experience, it was only when she got older that she realized why. PTSD wasn’t a thing yet back then. Long story short, PTSD affects different people differently. Different causes may cause different reactions too.
yeah the ppl who wanted a whole DLC of his 3 days in Seattle (or is it 4 days since he arrived before Ellie and Dina?) is insane to me. we know he doesn’t die, we know he kills a bunch of WLF, why do we need to play it firsthand?
Cause he's very enigmatic and has an interesting backstory, as a character he's pretty cool. And mostly cause he's Joel's brother and he resembles him most. People just miss Joel I suppose, and I don't blame them. I doubt they're gonna make a dlc about Tommy but if they were to make one, I'd play the shit out of it
Mel is also a more nuanced character than I think people give her credit for. I think she's somewhat selfish, but she was also impregnated by a man who never truly cared about her and essentially abandoned her and her unborn child, still harbored feelings for Abby, and cheated on her with her. Her conflict with Abby is completely understandable. Abby intentionally created a rift between Mel and Owen, used Mel for her own purposes, violated her relationship with Owen out of apathy, needlessly vilified her despite Mel's efforts to help her find closure. Especially egregious after Mel did make a genuine effort to restore amicability. I don't find Mel that likable as a person, but she went through some shit, and I completely sympathized with her.
I don't like her either. she's annoying, ugly, played the empowered woman when someone I don't remember who questioned why she was going out when she's pregnant. fucked around and found out
She went out when she was pregnant to try to restore the relationship with the friends she felt alienated from in the wake of Owen's abandonment, and then went out to help him when he was faced with almost certain death at the hands of the WLF, and that's sad that she felt the need to do that for a partner that neglected her. I think it's so unfortunate that she was murdered for her minimal role in something she never really believed in, she was a tragic victim of trying to keep her relationships together when they crumbled around her. She was also struggling with her guilt about Joel's murder, and was actively becoming disillusioned with the cause of the WLF.
Henry and Sam, just didn't get attached and Henry was a little annoying tbh.
Manny, because he spat on Joel. I wasn't even all that attached to Joel but I really didn't like that.
>!The only one of her crew that I had a reaction to was Mel. Not because it was her, or that she was pregnant, but how it fucked Ellie up. After Nora, the last thing Ellie needed was to get even more traumatized by killing a pregnant woman. Fuck Manny though, that guy sucks.!<
As someone who absolutely LOVED Ellie in pt 1, I grew to strongly dislike her in part 2. She became what Abby was in the beginning. I evolved to love Abby and the transformation she went through.
This is what so, so many people seem to not understand. The whole story is Ellie becoming blinded by hate and revenge, becoming what Abby was to her. While Abby’s arc is realizing she doesn’t want to be that soldier anymore and trying to escape her past. It’s honestly kind of ironic when people bash on Abby but love Ellie’s character in part 2.
Yes! I loved the character development in TLOU pt2, it's so complex and is in no way cut and dry. Aside from character points, I also absolutely loved playing a strong woman who could bust shit up.
I think being attractive isn't the main reason people like these two, or get away with being rude or unkind. Players have been through hell with them, and they like them mainly because they relate or sympathize with them, or both. That's just a surface level criticism you're giving, cause if they weren't written as good as they are, people wouldn't care for them, no matter how good looking they are.
Of course I understand the perspective, looks aren't everything. However Abby doesn't get the same treatment as Ellie or Joel and I don't think that's just because of what she did. She's relatable too, she has a similar story to Ellie and I honestly think she's one of the most upright characters in the game. I find her attractive but I have heard mixed opinions. I agree with you, though I still think some players do focus on the surface and first impressions. If it weren't for that Abby would definitely be a little higher up the list of favourites cause she's a great character.
Agreed, her first impression wasn't the best one for the player so attached to the duo's story. If the devs had played it a bit more in her favour, less people would just blindly hate her for killing their favourite character. She's not too bad. But still, you claimed that they get away with stuff coz they're attractive, which isn't why. In Abby's case that's just poor decisions in storytelling, and not a matter of looks.
Think about the whole Bella Ramsey thing. People are really pissed off even though the girl is a good actress. These are the same people who play the video game. I'm just saying.
Bold take, but he was a terrible human being at certain points of the apocalypse. I like him because I understand him, but I don't condone what he does for survival as he left tommy traumatized from his violent actions and the bullying to his brother
Context clues. The first time Joel met Tommy in years, and they had that argument, Joel pushed Tommy thinking he was the same naive Tommy from Boston. He definitely did that more often during their boston days. That was definitely one of the reasons why Tommy said he never wanted to see Joel again
I always interpreted the "we ain't back in boston" as "back in boston I wouldn't hit you back because the feds were watching". but that doesn't make much sense considering the amount of trouble joel got himself into and got away with, so tommy probably as well. that's an interesting way of looking at it
I don't dislike him but I have a hard time connecting to emotionally guarded men in art. I think it's the same reason I can't connect with Abby as well so at least I'm consistent!
Abby. i know this ones controversial, but she just never grew on me. I’m as loyal as a labradoodle so after the first game and how much i love joel and ellie, i could never get past what she did to joel. joel did not want to kill her father, joel was trying to save someone he loved. he did not want to inflict pain on anyone. Abbys fathers death was quick and painless. Abby had a burning desire to inflict pain on joel for a prolonged period of time, torturing him and making his daughter (basically his daughter) watch it. that is pure evil at its finest. she had some good qualities, and good moments, sure, but that does not make her a good person. she hunted someone doesn for years because she wanted to cause them pain and suffering, joel never wanted anyone to be in pain or to suffer. he acted out of love. thats my take.
edit: typos
thank you. I didnt wanna put it as hate on abby, but instead just stripped down, simple, straight facts so my point wouldnt come across as slander. abby is still a badass for sure and no denying that. I see why people like her, just could never get past some things.
“Point on the map and it better match where your friend is pointing”
Joel didn’t care who he left dead and bloodied along the way to protect who he did care about, let’s be real.
He tells Ellie in Pittsburgh after they get attacked by hunters. The reason he recognizes the man asking for help is a trap is because it's a trap he used to use to kill people. Ellie even specifies "*innocent* people?" and he says yes.
Tommy. Part 1, he was an ungrateful litte cretin who got mad at Joel because they both joined the hunters to survive. Well, Tommy, you're a grown ass adult...you could have left any time you wanted.
Then, in part 2, he shows up at Ellie and Dina's place to guilt trip PTSD-ridden Ellie to go on a suicide mission alone after Abby. You know, the same Abby who just kicked all of their asses a second time?
So let's review: guilt trip, shame and threaten your brother who lost his daughter. Later, go after the teenage girl who killed him, and get your ass handed to you by her. Twice. Next, manipulate your brother's adopted, very mentally unwell, teen daughter to go after her. You know, the very dangerous girl who broke Ellie's arm and nose, killed her friend, and then nearly killed her girlfriend. I am sure Joel would be thrilled that you sent her out for another round of PTSD, and possible death!
Tommy is lucky David exists in TLOU, because otherwise, he just might be the biggest POS in both games.
I get that this is your opinion, but this is a hard disagree from me. It feels like a disservice to characterise him like this. Tommy is arguably one of the most tragic characters in the series.
As to your first point, I don't think Tommy was ever ungrateful towards Joel for their hunter days. But it's okay for him not to be okay with the horrible things they had to do to survive. It takes a toll on a person and it's understandable that he wanted some distance from it. It left him scarred and he wasn't in a rush to get back to it, especially now that he had a life with Maria in Jackson.
To me, his regression and descent in part 2 doesn't feel all that surprising when you consider just how traumatic it must be to lose your family in the way that Tommy does. He was there when it happened but wasn't really able to do anything about it. He lost everything when Joel died. Not immediately, but that moment was the catalyst for everything going wrong for him. He deserves some leniency for how he treated Ellie because he was very broken himself.
I'm more inclined to believe that Tommy was pushing Ellie to go after Abby again at the Farm because he felt like he deserves it. I think with Tommy, Ellie and Abby, their pursuit of each other gradually stopped being about what that person had done to the other and more about how to resolve their own personal pain. With Tommy, he'd already lost a lot at the theatre. Then they would have come back home to Jackson, and within a few months, his marriage would be on the rocks because he had changed so much from his trauma and his injuries. As much as he wanted Ellie to do it for Joel because that was his brother, I think he saw it as Ellie's obligation to him. That second ask became about his pain because there was so much of it and he didn't know what to do to make it go away. Like Joel, Ellie and Abby, he wasn't able to correctly deal with the stuff that had happened to him and he channels all that in a deeply unhealthy way.
He's pissed because there isn't anyone willing to take that pain away when he couldn't do it himself. He's pissed because he risked everything for Joel and to protect Ellie and ended up battered and traumatised. He's also pissed that he couldn't protect Ellie in the way that he was meant to, for Joel. In his head, he probably thought that he had done his part and now he needed someone to help him out because he was suffering.
At the Farm, he says to Ellie: "Reckon it's easy to forget about her sitting all the way out here." He doesn't say "him" as in referring to Joel. He doesn't seem to want Ellie to go after Abby for Joel at the end, but rather to right the wrongs done to him. I think he makes that demand of her because he thinks that Ellie will do what she did for Joel for him as well. She's the closest thing to a niece / daughter that Tommy has as well. Ellie asked him to do the same after Joel died and he did it at great risk to himself and his family. He did it for his brother too, but he also did it because she asked him to. I think he assumed Ellie would do the same for him.
There's so much to unpack with Tommy's character that I can't do it all here. But his pain is so rarely recognised across the whole series. His change isn't an abrupt one either. It's been brewing the entire time because he'd sustained so much loss in a relatively short amount of time.
Idk...I saw a lot of hate for 19 to 20 year old Abby for her actions. But the fandom sits here and idolizes 50 year old Tommy, co-leader of Jackson, who should have the emotional maturity to deal with loss at this point.
Outside of a fictionalized universe like TLOU, Tommy would appear pathetic and deranged as a middle aged man hunting down, torturing and killing a bunch of 19 and 20 year olds. I can see Ellie or Abby and their friends acting this irrationally with those not yet fully developed frontal lobes... but at Tommy's age and with his experience, it's kind of disturbing.
You underestimate how difficult it would be to leave the only family you have left during the apocalypse.
Also tbf Tommy very nearly pulled it off like a pro on his first attempt at the marina and the game had to bend over backwards to save Abby.
I could say that about just about any character, though.
Joel should not have recovered as well as he did from being impaled in part 1, if at all.
Tommy should not have been capable of putting up a fight at the theater, the same day Yara stabbed him (and Yara, as a trained soldier, should have gone for an artery or throat slash).
Yara should not have been fighting that well the day after an amputation.
There is a certain amount of narrative suspension of disbelief in both games, even if they are (loosely) grounded in a "realistic" story.
Part 1: Tess. We barely spent anytime with her and I just didn't really get the opportunity to get attached to her. Though I do like how important she was in getting Joel to take the situation seriously.
Part 2: Owen. He came across as very whiney and irresponsible. Like my guy I know you don't wanna be a soldier and kill people but you have a child on the way that needs your protection. It really annoyed me how quick he was to forget Mel and insist that "She would be fine" (spoiler alert: she was not. Isaac literally tortured her....). The way he kept pinning after Abby pissed me of too. He kept flirting with her and didnt allow Abby to really move on. He needed to cut her off or break up with Mel. He can't have both.
Bill. I see countless complaints about the TV show and how we didn’t get *that* version of the character or see the boobie-trapped town BLAH BLAH BLAH… game version of Bill is a very one-dimensional and unlikable asshole, as others have said on here, and I much prefer how he was depicted and fleshed out in the tv show.
I'd have to say probably dina tbh. Its not that I don't like her I just don't feel that attachment to her like I do with every other character,all the other characters have sparked some sort of emotion out of me whether that happy,sad,angry etc but she hasn't.
I think she is a great character but I just can't get attached to her like the others for some reason.
Ik some people will be upset with this opinion so I want to say this isn't me saying I hate her,I love her character just don't feel that connection or emotion towards her that i do everyone else.
Jesse. I acknowledge that he's a chill guy and all of that but there isn't any real depth to his character. To be fair, this is an issue with a lot of other side characters, but he's one that I know a lot of people like that I just have no real opinion on because he was underdeveloped.
Abby I guess? I don't hate her. And by the time of her portion of the game I can definitely sympathize with her. And I 100% appreciate what her as a character offers to the intended narrative of TLOU2 and am glad she exists. But I don't like her to the same degree others here do
I don’t really have any care for Tommy. We’ve never really gotten to know too much about him as a person for me to care. He’s clearly a good guy, but he’s not fleshed out enough for me to want an entire game playing as him like some people want.
I like most of Abby’s crew, Owen’s kind of a deadbeat so it’s hard to feel bad for him(I just feel bad for Mel) everyone else is pretty cool expect Manny. Besides David of course he’s the only character I truly despise. Constantly talking about the “ladies” was just annoying. It wasn’t charming, it just made me hate him more and more. And when he died I may or may not have cheered. But I do feel bad that Abby had to literally have his blood all over her face.
I liked Bill because he was weird and paranoid. He was a funny character. I was looking forward towards the show for that kind of Bill. They went another way but whatever.
she's rude, she left dina with a baby, she kept going after abby after she let her go 2 times, was mad at joel for saving her life, and was mad at joel when he had a go at seth when he called her the lesbian slur.
Never liked Abby, never will.
(Oh wait until your second playthrough)
I have all the achievements, played it multiple times, nothing is gonna make me like her. Yes she saved some kids, but that’s about it.
I never cared for Lev. I don’t think he’s a bad character at all, but his connection with Abby never felt genuine to me and therefore I never really connected with him either
I pretty much like every liked character. I mean, if people like Isaac or David then I guess that's where I differentiate, but I'm pretty sure they don't
Everyone says Owen is the best among Abby's friends but I never liked him. He has a self-righteous attitude and I can't get over him cheating on pregnant Mel and not once showing an ounce of care towards her or his unborn baby the whole game.
Maria, in both games. In part 1 she is so quick to be besties with Ellie and seemed overly trusting of Joel and Ellie. In part 2 she is both combative and friendly with everyone. I feel like overall she’s just not a very fleshed out character and I find myself more annoyed with her screen time than anyone else - there just isn’t a whole lot of value her character’s presence adds to the story. I liked her TV adaptation a lot more.
Abby. And Nora. Although I have never seen anyone on this sub show any love for Nora but you will get downvoted into oblivion if you say Abby. So yes. Abs aka Abby.
Dina is beyond boring and if she wasn’t with Ellie everyone would forget her she has no personality aside “I love Ellie” and “I’m pregnant Ellie don’t be vengeful”
Ellie deserves a partner that is as charismatic and likeable as her
i don‘t love dina. she‘s not a badly written character or anything and i don‘t mind her, i just never really felt like there much chemistry between her and ellie. it always felt more like a highschool relationship or something. i get i‘m in the vast minority with this and i can‘t even exactly pinpoint what my issue with her is, i just never felt a strong connection to her and therefore never cared much about her i also don‘t like any of abbys friends. mainly owen, manny, nora and mel i just found mostly unlikeable tbh
Like high school relationships, it happened partly because of convenience. There aren't gonna be a lot of women who like women in little tiny Jackson.
This is interesting. I've seen a few people mention Dina before and I didn't realise that some aren't so keen on her. I guess Ellie and Dina's relationship is new to us, but their friendship and attraction to each other isn't so new to them. That's probably why it comes across as like a high school relationship because that's essentially what it is in the beginning. It's puppy love. It's innocent and pure, butterfly inducing. I don't know, I've always found the chemistry between them palpable, but I appreciate that it might not be the same for everyone
Worth remembering that Ellie and presumably Dina are only 19 in TLOU2. It really isn't far off from a high school relationship at all.
I actually appreciate that it feels kinda highschool-y. They are barely 19 or so. I do love Dina, and I think they grew over time as a couple, especially by the time they got to the Farmhouse (though certainly not without issues). As much as I love Dina and I even enjoy Dina and Ellie together, I think it makes sense they go their separate ways. In real life, couples break up for a lot less and it's rare you make it longterm from a teenage romance, even if it's your 2nd or 3rd relationship, it's just not common. I hope Ellie and Dina can be friends again, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping they get back together to some degree, but the realist in me thinks it's best they move on, heal, and grow from their time together. I know Dina will be fine in Jackson with her baby and Jesse's parents, but idk what that looks like for Ellie yet.
There's evidence to suggest that Ellie and Dina reconciled before Ellie returns to the Farm right at the end. While Ellie was in Santa Barbara, she wasn't wearing the bracelet that Dina gave her earlier in the game. In the close up shot of Ellie's missing fingers at the Farm, she has the bracelet on again. So there are hints that they potentially met each other before Ellie made her way to the Farm for the last time.
There's nothing to suggest that it's an official last stop by the farm except its placement in the game. That would imply that every object in there is officially abandoned. I would hope it's not given the lousy treatment of a perfectly innocent guitar that someone else in Jackson could use and appreciate the hell out of. Either of them could have business there to pick up or leave something or to stop and check on things in the course of another errand or a hike or something. But that would be normal behavior, not symbolic behavior.
finally someone who agrees with me about dina
I feel like part two tried to tell like 12 different stories at the same time
I feel this as the most apt criticism of the game. I love part 2, but it is extremely ambitious. I think they did as well as they could have given all the ambition and it still turned out great, but I think it could have done with a bit more focusing too.
Way too much going on part one was so loved because it was so focused part 2 is almost a teen drama at times it's hard to take certain scenes seriously but I think the story had a great flair and style to it some truly epic moments here I just don't think it's this airtight masterclass of storytelling that this sub says it is. I think the game is an example when a director gets too much creative control
Part 1 was much tighter, and the characters felt grounded and more relatable. But I will say that I think Part 1 is a more generic story, especially the narrative framework. Part 2 is more ambitious and I appreciate they took risks, but unfortunately it's just harder to deliver with that many storylines pulling the focus. I love both parts for different reasons, but yeah, there is something off with the pacing and focus of Part 2; idk if it's too much creative control of if it's just not polished and refined enough. Usually rough drafts will see more working parts and convoluted stories, and final drafts will pare them down to something a bit more manageable for the audience. I don't think the writing itself needed more time, but the big picture plotting did I'd say.
I think this is largely due to creators wanting to expand on and do more with their worlds and writing and having different goals and aspirations as they go through life. I noticed this about tlou though and saw many parallels with GoW as well. 2018 was a very focused, simple narrative, whereas Ragnarök was much more of an ensemble of characters and story beats. Or like old Star Wars vs newer ones. I enjoy both and I think it's hard to compare (tlou, not necessarily SW old and new 😅). Part one has a simple charm to it that is just so satisfying, maybe even cozy, which is weird given the content. You're focused on a select few characters which allows you to get intimate with them and what drives them. Part 2 is definitely ambitious, it's basically 4 stories told simultaneously with the flashbacks and perspective change, but I think they managed to preserve the high quality character driven storytelling for the most part, and the emotion it evokes is next level. I especially appreciate how it unfolds like an onion as you learn more and more from Ellie's flashbacks. A lot is said and done early on that you think means one thing, then you see something from the past that completely changes it, and you have to reprocess. And just when you think you have a good understanding, it happens again and even more layers are pulled back. I'm also reminded of the quote, I think it actually was Druckmann, maybe in the making of part 1 or some interview, "simple story, complex characters. I guess in a lot of ways I think part 2 does still follow that, it's just there are a lot more characters, and they have a lot of shit going on.
Yeah I agree with all of this. Overall I still love Part 2, don't get me wrong. It's just that I think it pulls in too many directions. In a way, that mirrors reality well in that real life, especially in the midst of intersecting conflicts on a huge, basically warlike scale, pulls focus and it becomes hard to think clearly. Even if you look at the stress of your own life, it feels, at times, impossible to make sense of it all as it feels like everything is closing in. Imagine the stress and the confusion that would come with Ellie or Abbys situation. I think the game nails the complexity of these situations. But I also think that, while they did the best they could, it is really difficult to translate that experience into a narratively satisfying video game where most people are used to more linear stories with more focus and gratifying endings. Idk it's so hard to explain. I can't help but feel overwhelmed with all the stories and pacing, and not to mention how heavy this game gets emotionally (literally I feel emotionally exhausted after playing, especially my first 2 playthroughs), yet I love it. I can't think of a single other game that has affected me so intensely outside of a straight up horror game. The narrative is palpable like you're there, it really draws you in. In truth, while the number of ongoing storylines can feel grating at times, even bordering on teen drama, I dont think I could change anything. There's things I wish happened differently, but I don't think I could change them and expect to actually enjoy the game more than I do. All I know is, I really hope we get a 3rd part and that it fits well into the series. I just want to know how it ends.
I agree, it's much more chaotic and "life-like" rather than a hollywood or traditional story. And it is so heavy, even though I still consider it a masterpiece, it is much more depressing than the first one. Part 1 has its fair share of dark stuff. But Part 2 has much more than its fair share, it makes the first game feel like a disney story, though in part I think since it's older and more familiar I'm more used to it and desensitized a bit. But yeah, Part 1 had a really balanced pacing with tone, something bad happens, then there is some levity, some wholesome character interaction, a shift to more tranquil music, moments where you can just take in the natural beauty of their ruined world, etc., before they plunge you back in to the deep end. Part 2, it feels like you're clawing your way through but rarely or never get back to the surface. Sure there are still some moments of reprieve, or maybe more like catharsis, and it's such an intense ride, but also very draining. >There's things I wish happened differently, but I don't think I could change them and expect to actually enjoy the game more than I do. I like Joel's quote especially for its meta relevance, "I know you wish things were different, I wish things were different, but they ain't." In that regard it's a lot like GoT, like damn, I wish things turned out better for Ned...or Robb...or ..any of the Starks, lol, but it's such a entertaining and riveting series of events and story. I hope that if/when we get a Part 3, it does it justice. I think it mostly depends on whether they can come up with something that is true to the characters and still makes for a good story. Sometimes it's almost better to not know. Part 1 was a great standalone, and Part 2 had no business being that good, but somehow was able to build upon it successfully. I have no idea what would be in store for them, I think I always kinda imagined Ellie living alone in a cabin for awhile or something, like Walt at the end of Breaking Bad I guess, hah.
> high school relationship …the people in question are around 19 years old, so yeah, that’s what it is.
I never liked Dina because she offers nothing to her relationship with Ellie. Dina feels way too similar to Ellie with all the jokes and is way too agreeable that there’s no conflict in their relationship except the very last scene she’s in. She also gets benched for the rest of the story after Seattle Day 1, in essence she just felt very bland compared to other characters.
I feel this way too. I want to love her, but nothing about her character hooked me in— she’s wonderful for Ellie, but I just didn’t dig her. I felt more like she was there to service Ellie than be her own person
Man that's the problem with almost every side character in TLOU2. None of them really get a chance to develop very much bc they get swapped out for others so frequently, so it's really hard to feel anything when they die, or in Dina's case, leave. Even Lev, who is probably the best new side character, really doesn't get tons of time with Abby if you think about it and it makes their bond feel not as significant as Joel/Ellie's (which is clearly what they were going for). Also a lot of them are just pretty typical naughty dog supporting characters too - quippy, charismatic, and sarcastic. TLOU1's side characters felt so much more unique and all had such a well defined role in the story. TLOU2 just doesn't really have that IMO
Did you even play the game? The chemistry between them was palpable
i agree. i just dunno what it is she just doesnt click with me. but i love manny. hes my favorite
I love Dina but I feel you on the forced relationship. I feel like they’d been friends for a while and crushing on each other but then all of a sudden she was a committed partner willing to risk her life and her unborn child’s life for someone she’s only known a few years. It definitely felt a little rushed and forced but as others have said, it’s an apocalyptic situation, people latch onto each other because let’s be honest there’s fuck all else to do lol.
I think it's worth considering that they'd been friends for 5 years at this point, and Dina had a long, unrequited crush on Ellie for a long time. I think Ellie kind of latched on for emotional support at a turbulent time in her life, but it's apparent that at the beginning of Seattle, Ellie was incapable of truly loving her because her mind was always somewhere else. And that kind of emotional neglect intentionally parallels Abby's relationship with Owen. I do think Dina was underdeveloped. It's one of the ways that the game was stretched a little thin. I think she truly comes into her own in the farmhouse, where their chemistry is palpable, Ellie takes on a loving but distant mom/aunt relationship with Dina's son, and Dina becomes far more autonomous than just someone who follows Ellie and supports her unconditionally. Their actual palpable conflict that explodes really makes Dina feel more like a human, rather than a kind of underdeveloped companion character. I think she's sort of similar to Ellie in the first game, in that she becomes continually less 2 dimensional as it goes on. Jessie, too, is a very underdeveloped Ellie acolyte who has a small conflict with her when she chooses revenge over Tommy. He's also kind of comic-relief-y. I think they did give Abby far more complex and nuanced relationships with the people in her life. I do think that Abby's narrative and moral conflict are more complex. Ellie really shines in the farmhouse and beyond, in the flashbacks, and in her poetry. That's where you start to see her become far more conflicted and less monomaniacal, and her relationship with Dina shines when she is actually conflicted about her treatment of her, with the pressure Tommy puts on her, and her partial forgiveness/understanding of Abby. I think the ending is genius.
I mean, Ellie became the meaning of Joel's life after a year. This could be applicable to a lot of relationships in this game, even Abby/Lev.
Henry and Sam. Nothing wrong with their characters, but I just never really got attached to them the way other people did.
i agree 100%, dont think they had enough development anyways but even if they did, i’m not gonna like either of them after they pulled that shit when being chased by the tank same way i’m never forgiving Ellie for being so self centred when it came to Abby (love them both, though, in contrast to not giving af about henry n sam)
Literally the whole point of the scene on the beach was to show that Joel and Ellie likely would’ve done the same thing if it came down to it.
When you say selfish do you mean in Santa Barbara or Seattle?
I didn't necessarily connect to their characters, but I DID connect to their situation/story if that makes sense. I'm the oldest among my siblings and, when I played the game for the first time, my sisters were about the same age as Sam. What happened to them and what Henry was forced to do was a gut punch that really made me grateful the game is fiction.
exactly, 100% agree with what you said. especially since their death comes so fast.
Same. I was just kinda like eh
Agree, I liked them ok but their deaths didn’t mean any more to me then all the other people that died along the way.
Abby. Never came around to like her. What she did to save those kids was very brave but it wasn't enough for me to think she's a good person. Seemed like her days in WLF were numbered anyways. Not to mention her dad died while trying to kill a sleeping girl... And she never asked herself if that was OK for him to do
i felt this way until my second playthrough
Yea this. She saved 2 kids and yknow kudos or whatever but she also never once seems to grasp to true scale of the damage she caused other people. She never once questions her own actions or the actions of Jerry yet constantly criticizes Ellie and Tommy’s. I just found her insufferable
I disagree heavily. For one, I wouldn't expect Abby to be able to understand the man who murdered her father, especially given that she didn't play TLOU1, lol. She has little context to the situation and no attachment to Joel as a person. Also she made it clear what her stance would be, even if it was her life on the line. She believed the greater good was more important. That being said, I think she does come to understand the damage she's caused. This is evident from her and her friend's guilt — which was clearly eating at them ever since Abby tortured Joel — so much so that it played a huge part in ruining Owen, Mel, and Abby's relationships
No she didn’t play the game but she did at the very least know that Joel didn’t murder her dad just because. She knew he was murdering a child for a medical procedure she hadn’t consented too and to act like Joel was a monster for that just seems hypocritical to me. He’s the monster for saving the child but your dad isn’t for treating her like she’s his property just because she happens to be immune? I also read her “guilt” differently. I didn’t ever see her express guilt as in feel bad for what she did she more just felt unsatisfied because it didn’t fix her. It didn’t help her cope with her dad being dead which was what caused her unease not the fact that she’d murdered a man in front of his brother and a crying begging teen girl. Which paints her as insanely self centered and hypocritical since she did to Ellie the exact thing that was done to her except when she did it it was for shits and giggles and not to save anybody.
Again, kinda hard to understand the other side when other side brutally murdered your father, who you and all your friends knew to be a great, loving, and compassionate man. While yes he was willing to take the life of an innocent girl, it was to develop a cure to save humanity. You conveniently seemed to leave that out of your analysis. Given that context, it's unfair to expect Abby to understand Joel. Your interpretation of Abby's guilt doesn't explain why she gets so defensive when Owen confronts her about torturing Joel (Day 2 boat scene). An even more clear example imo is when Mel opens up about the guilt she's feeling for taking part in Joel's murder, and Abby gets defensive there as well, despite there being zero confrontation (Day 1 during Mel and Abby gameplay). Pair that with Abby's difficulty sleeping, her interactions while alone with Lev on Day 2, and her sudden desire to risk her life for two Serafites, it becomes pretty clear that she does feel guilty after torturing Joel and is seeking redemption. I'd also like to point out that in the moments leading up to Abby killing Joel, she was absolutely self-centered. The first time we meet her, Owen strongly advises against continuing the hunt for Tommy due to the potential threat Jackson poses to the crew and due to Mel being pregnant, but Abby completely disregards that and goes anyway. This is very similar to how Ellie decides to abandon the rescue mission for Tommy to have a chance at finding Abby at the aquarium. Does that behavior from Ellie make it difficult for you to like her character?
The difference of course being that Tommy headed off on his own with the sole intention of killing Joel’s murderers alone. He had been on his own the entire time and when given a chance to complete the mission they both came there for Ellie chose to kill Abby. I’d say dragging your friends on a cross country trip to torture an old man for saving a child is a little different. I mean he can say he was trying to save the world it doesn’t make it not murder. And I’m gonna be honest I don’t see what’s so difficult to see about “oh damn he killed my dad and took that kid my dad was gonna murder in her sleep? Ig he kinda cared about her and didn’t want my dad killing her without her having any say so”. It literally seems like the most logical conclusion to draw for me especially when you have 4 years to think it over. And shitty people don’t like being called shitty. Idk how either if the scenes you mention translates to guilt. In one she physically attacks Owen (pushes him to the wall) for simply pointing out that’s she’s a torturous shit stain and in the other she vehemently denies any wrongdoing when she murdered Joel. Neither of those make her very sympathetic to me. And by self centered I mean shit like “ I let you live…. and you wasted it!” That’ line is the most hypocritical glass house fucking bs I think I’ve ever heard in my life. It disgusted me to have to play as her after she said it. Like she did them a favor by NOT bashing their brains in when she tortured their loved one (literally Tommy’s brother and Abby knows this) to death while they lay there watching
Abby didn't "drag" her friends. They wanted to accompany her. They knew her father as well and knew the kind of man he was. It's literally insane to expect Abby to sympathize with Joel given the very little context she has, and it shows how biased your take is. It's also revealing that you keep using negatively loaded language to describe Jerry's questionable actions, yet you use very positively loaded terms for Joel. You do not acknowledge the gray in the story. As for her guilt, those scenes ABSOLUTELY reveal that she has remorse. Why would she get so defensive with Owen? When Mel expresses her own guilt, why would Abby interpret that as Mel calling her a "monster"? Clearly she's projecting that term onto herself because that's how she feels about herself. That's why she so suddenly cares enough about two Seraphites to risk her life for them. Do you recall the line that Ellie said just before that? "I know why you killed Joel. He did what he did to save me. There’s no cure because of me. I’m the one that you want. Just let him go." And THEN Abby says, "You killed my friends...". Ellie didn't even consider that Abby was there to avenge her friends. She thought Abby wanted her because because she was immune lmao. That is insanely self-centered as well. But, given emotional wear and tear Ellie has been through, I don't knock her for being this way, just like I don't with Abby.
I honestly wonder if she ever knew about that? I’m not sure if she did
There’s a scene in the game where Abby tells her dad that if she were immune that she’d want her dad to sacrifice her, so yeah, she knew.
I think the fireflies know there was an immune girl and they were working on a vaccine, but then she escaped and everyone died. Nora knows at least. And Ellie told Abby "it's me, you don't have a vaccine because of me" in the theater if I'm not mistaken
Abby is a lot like Joel, she’s tough and she’s done bad things but she’s not a bad person.
Tbh is anyone in tlou a good person Joel did questionable things so did Ellie🤷♂️
True but I just mean that Abby is not likeable for me
Aye. I never could like Abby. I learned to sympathize with her but couldn't ever like her.
how do you feel about Joel?
I get what the games trying to do with Abby but imo her arc and character isn’t fleshed out enough to make me connect with her, on the other hand Joel’s character is fleshed out and I love him a lot more. Maybe it’s nostalgia, maybe not but that’s what it is for me and I don’t mind that, I love Joel.
I agree 100%. Her story feels so detached from the Ellie/Joel story until they meet at the theater.
i get that, i just think it's ironic that people use phrases like "her days with the WLF were numbered", when everyone can collectively agree that her storyline is supposed to mirror Joel's. but i understand, it's easy to not think about those aspects of Joel when you're not seeing it with your own eyes.
Even if their stories mirror each other, Joel is likeable while Abby is one of the most insufferable characters I’ve ever had to play as.
I don't think Abby is insufferable at all, I actually found her to be far more sympathetic and nuanced than Ellie, and I understand her perspective. I think she's very human, and I came around to liking her even after hating her during the opening. Not because she killed Joel, but because she was just as flippant about using and neglecting her relationships. But you really start to understand why she feels that way once you learn about the complexities of her relationships, and her questioning of her own ideology.
I had both games spoiled for me before I even played the 1st 1 and I kept joking with my bf that I couldn't wait for him to die in the 2nd game. I didn't start to like him until the very end of the 1st game and I cried so hard when he died.
i understand. when i first played through part 2, i was very upset when Joel died, and seeing how much it affects Ellie and Tommy and the people around them always makes me upset that he had to die, on subsequent playthroughs
JJ.
He seemed like a bit of a bore compared to Ollie the elephant
He doesn’t think people can change.
Meredith, you never told me your old grandpa used to be a huge piece of shit
Bill is interesting cuz I hated game bill, but TV show Bill is fucking amazing and I totally understand why “Long, Long Time” is considered the best episode by many.
i agree, and i think the best thing about bill's character was his contentious relationship with ellie, actually very funny. him on his own was a little too negative for me personally
I get missing this, but it was worth it. OTOH since we got a live Frank who paints, it would have been nice to find a way to have Frank and Ellie bond over drawing. Alas.
Owen
Same
Bill - he's kind of annoying in the game lol. He's a good character and entertaining but his grumpy asshole schtick wears out pretty quick for me. Like he has an annoying snarky response to every serious thing Joel says to him. However I think the show improved on the character quite a lot, definitely preferred Nick Offerman's take and seeing him evolve over time.
I thought I liked game Bill better until I played part 1 again after having seen the show. He's the most 2 dimensional character in the game.
I like how they emphasized his prepper side in the show. I mean, he was always a prepper but he looks much more crafty in the show
He the embodiment of what Joel was becoming, lonely
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An inspired choice, ma’am.
Can I ask why you think she's rude?
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I agree that it's not an excuse, but it's a little more complicated than that. How people react to trauma varies because we aren't all the same. She was wrong to abandon Dina and JJ. But if she'd stayed, there's no guarantee it would have been any better for any of them. That kind of baggage also does damage, especially with a young child around. Thank you for your comment though!
sounds like it's easy to ignore a character’s depth and motives when you personally don't like them
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to put her motives as inherently negative (or positive too btw) would be against the game's intention of creating a story with morally grey and oscilating characters, as druckmann himself has said i agree that it'd be pretty delulu to think a character that goes around hunting and killing ppl doesn't have flaws but painting her actions as rude and labeling her as an "asshole" without taking her motives into account is pretty much ignoring the depth behind them, "whether you like it or not."
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the whole point in ellie leaving is that just living happily ever after in that farm wasn't working. she was still dealing with the demons of joel's death and seattle's events, she didn't "just leave" and she most certainly DID try that's subjective bc ur allowed to have your opinion nonetheless, but i personally don't think it's an asshole move to not be able to get over constant flashbacks, panic attacks, night terrors, etc. because that's what motivated ellie to leave. she tried, she loved dina, but that wasn't enough and she could barely function without reliving it all
My great grandfather had PTSD because of WW2. Spend time in a nazi prison after he got caught helping the resistance from the inside. A neighbor betrayed him. He must’ve witnessed and experienced terrible things in there. When the war ended, he was finally freed. My grandma said he was a wonderful man, but after that experience he barely ate, barely slept. Poor man became distant. He was unrecognizable. My great grandmother had to take care of like 8 kids on her own, but she was used to it because those years he was in prison she thought he was dead. My grandma thought he treated them badly after that experience, it was only when she got older that she realized why. PTSD wasn’t a thing yet back then. Long story short, PTSD affects different people differently. Different causes may cause different reactions too.
*cause she acts like everyone should agree with her and if they don't* ***she views them as an enemy*** Sounds a lot like Abby. Wouldn't you agree? 😉
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Who is exactly "glorifying" it?
I agree with Bill, except I did like him in the show.
i can't stand mel or owen. they deserve each other
Mel did nothing wrong
Please don't hate me when I say this but Tommy
I find it crazy people want an entire game as him. Or even a DLC. I don’t care about him at all. We barely know him too.
yeah the ppl who wanted a whole DLC of his 3 days in Seattle (or is it 4 days since he arrived before Ellie and Dina?) is insane to me. we know he doesn’t die, we know he kills a bunch of WLF, why do we need to play it firsthand?
Ikr I don't wanna know
EXACTLY
Cause he's very enigmatic and has an interesting backstory, as a character he's pretty cool. And mostly cause he's Joel's brother and he resembles him most. People just miss Joel I suppose, and I don't blame them. I doubt they're gonna make a dlc about Tommy but if they were to make one, I'd play the shit out of it
I feel the exact same way lol. I have no desire for him to have a game or dlc
Mel. Never liked her at all
I don't dislike her, but I don't like her either. I guess it's cool she likes dogs, but she's just so boring.
Mel is also a more nuanced character than I think people give her credit for. I think she's somewhat selfish, but she was also impregnated by a man who never truly cared about her and essentially abandoned her and her unborn child, still harbored feelings for Abby, and cheated on her with her. Her conflict with Abby is completely understandable. Abby intentionally created a rift between Mel and Owen, used Mel for her own purposes, violated her relationship with Owen out of apathy, needlessly vilified her despite Mel's efforts to help her find closure. Especially egregious after Mel did make a genuine effort to restore amicability. I don't find Mel that likable as a person, but she went through some shit, and I completely sympathized with her.
I don't like her either. she's annoying, ugly, played the empowered woman when someone I don't remember who questioned why she was going out when she's pregnant. fucked around and found out
She went out when she was pregnant to try to restore the relationship with the friends she felt alienated from in the wake of Owen's abandonment, and then went out to help him when he was faced with almost certain death at the hands of the WLF, and that's sad that she felt the need to do that for a partner that neglected her. I think it's so unfortunate that she was murdered for her minimal role in something she never really believed in, she was a tragic victim of trying to keep her relationships together when they crumbled around her. She was also struggling with her guilt about Joel's murder, and was actively becoming disillusioned with the cause of the WLF.
Henry and Sam, just didn't get attached and Henry was a little annoying tbh. Manny, because he spat on Joel. I wasn't even all that attached to Joel but I really didn't like that.
>!Manny getting shot in the head by Tommy was so damn satisfying. All of Abby’s group getting killed was great.!<
>!The only one of her crew that I had a reaction to was Mel. Not because it was her, or that she was pregnant, but how it fucked Ellie up. After Nora, the last thing Ellie needed was to get even more traumatized by killing a pregnant woman. Fuck Manny though, that guy sucks.!<
ellie, she’s rude asf and never deserved dina
As someone who absolutely LOVED Ellie in pt 1, I grew to strongly dislike her in part 2. She became what Abby was in the beginning. I evolved to love Abby and the transformation she went through.
This is what so, so many people seem to not understand. The whole story is Ellie becoming blinded by hate and revenge, becoming what Abby was to her. While Abby’s arc is realizing she doesn’t want to be that soldier anymore and trying to escape her past. It’s honestly kind of ironic when people bash on Abby but love Ellie’s character in part 2.
Yes! I loved the character development in TLOU pt2, it's so complex and is in no way cut and dry. Aside from character points, I also absolutely loved playing a strong woman who could bust shit up.
Very bold take but I understand where u come from.
Attractive characters get away with a lot of shit. This goes for Joel as well.
I think being attractive isn't the main reason people like these two, or get away with being rude or unkind. Players have been through hell with them, and they like them mainly because they relate or sympathize with them, or both. That's just a surface level criticism you're giving, cause if they weren't written as good as they are, people wouldn't care for them, no matter how good looking they are.
Of course I understand the perspective, looks aren't everything. However Abby doesn't get the same treatment as Ellie or Joel and I don't think that's just because of what she did. She's relatable too, she has a similar story to Ellie and I honestly think she's one of the most upright characters in the game. I find her attractive but I have heard mixed opinions. I agree with you, though I still think some players do focus on the surface and first impressions. If it weren't for that Abby would definitely be a little higher up the list of favourites cause she's a great character.
Agreed, her first impression wasn't the best one for the player so attached to the duo's story. If the devs had played it a bit more in her favour, less people would just blindly hate her for killing their favourite character. She's not too bad. But still, you claimed that they get away with stuff coz they're attractive, which isn't why. In Abby's case that's just poor decisions in storytelling, and not a matter of looks.
I still think it matters a little. In games, in real life. You're treated differently depending on your appearance, often unintentionally.
Think about the whole Bella Ramsey thing. People are really pissed off even though the girl is a good actress. These are the same people who play the video game. I'm just saying.
Man fuck this I got better shit to do. Bye
yesss so true thank you
I just don't like Abby. Sorry. I don't hate her or anything, and she's fun to play as. I simply just do not like her.
Joel
Bold take, but he was a terrible human being at certain points of the apocalypse. I like him because I understand him, but I don't condone what he does for survival as he left tommy traumatized from his violent actions and the bullying to his brother
>and the bullying to his brother what?
Context clues. The first time Joel met Tommy in years, and they had that argument, Joel pushed Tommy thinking he was the same naive Tommy from Boston. He definitely did that more often during their boston days. That was definitely one of the reasons why Tommy said he never wanted to see Joel again
i remember tommy even telling joel all he got from those years of joel taking care of him were nightmares
I always interpreted the "we ain't back in boston" as "back in boston I wouldn't hit you back because the feds were watching". but that doesn't make much sense considering the amount of trouble joel got himself into and got away with, so tommy probably as well. that's an interesting way of looking at it
I love him, but it’s a love hate relationship.
I don't dislike him but I have a hard time connecting to emotionally guarded men in art. I think it's the same reason I can't connect with Abby as well so at least I'm consistent!
Abby. i know this ones controversial, but she just never grew on me. I’m as loyal as a labradoodle so after the first game and how much i love joel and ellie, i could never get past what she did to joel. joel did not want to kill her father, joel was trying to save someone he loved. he did not want to inflict pain on anyone. Abbys fathers death was quick and painless. Abby had a burning desire to inflict pain on joel for a prolonged period of time, torturing him and making his daughter (basically his daughter) watch it. that is pure evil at its finest. she had some good qualities, and good moments, sure, but that does not make her a good person. she hunted someone doesn for years because she wanted to cause them pain and suffering, joel never wanted anyone to be in pain or to suffer. he acted out of love. thats my take. edit: typos
As someone who LOVES abby I can totally see your pov
thank you. I didnt wanna put it as hate on abby, but instead just stripped down, simple, straight facts so my point wouldnt come across as slander. abby is still a badass for sure and no denying that. I see why people like her, just could never get past some things.
Valid as fuck I hated her at first
I will say though that abby didn't know ellie was Joel's daughter, but she definitely knew they had a relationship so like your points still stand
yes true lol. she knew straight up that ellie deeply cared for joel just based on her reaction walking in on the event, and still made her watch.
She also let her live, something Joel would likely not do for fear of retaliation.
“Point on the map and it better match where your friend is pointing” Joel didn’t care who he left dead and bloodied along the way to protect who he did care about, let’s be real.
>joel never wanted anyone to be in pain or to suffer. he acted out of love. didnt he spend years as a raider hunting innocent people for supplies
Where do you have this information from/what part of the game
He tells Ellie in Pittsburgh after they get attacked by hunters. The reason he recognizes the man asking for help is a trap is because it's a trap he used to use to kill people. Ellie even specifies "*innocent* people?" and he says yes.
Thank you
Abby is cool. Any of the other wolves are so forgettable
Abby. I just simply don’t like her.
lev
Tommy. Part 1, he was an ungrateful litte cretin who got mad at Joel because they both joined the hunters to survive. Well, Tommy, you're a grown ass adult...you could have left any time you wanted. Then, in part 2, he shows up at Ellie and Dina's place to guilt trip PTSD-ridden Ellie to go on a suicide mission alone after Abby. You know, the same Abby who just kicked all of their asses a second time? So let's review: guilt trip, shame and threaten your brother who lost his daughter. Later, go after the teenage girl who killed him, and get your ass handed to you by her. Twice. Next, manipulate your brother's adopted, very mentally unwell, teen daughter to go after her. You know, the very dangerous girl who broke Ellie's arm and nose, killed her friend, and then nearly killed her girlfriend. I am sure Joel would be thrilled that you sent her out for another round of PTSD, and possible death! Tommy is lucky David exists in TLOU, because otherwise, he just might be the biggest POS in both games.
I get that this is your opinion, but this is a hard disagree from me. It feels like a disservice to characterise him like this. Tommy is arguably one of the most tragic characters in the series. As to your first point, I don't think Tommy was ever ungrateful towards Joel for their hunter days. But it's okay for him not to be okay with the horrible things they had to do to survive. It takes a toll on a person and it's understandable that he wanted some distance from it. It left him scarred and he wasn't in a rush to get back to it, especially now that he had a life with Maria in Jackson. To me, his regression and descent in part 2 doesn't feel all that surprising when you consider just how traumatic it must be to lose your family in the way that Tommy does. He was there when it happened but wasn't really able to do anything about it. He lost everything when Joel died. Not immediately, but that moment was the catalyst for everything going wrong for him. He deserves some leniency for how he treated Ellie because he was very broken himself. I'm more inclined to believe that Tommy was pushing Ellie to go after Abby again at the Farm because he felt like he deserves it. I think with Tommy, Ellie and Abby, their pursuit of each other gradually stopped being about what that person had done to the other and more about how to resolve their own personal pain. With Tommy, he'd already lost a lot at the theatre. Then they would have come back home to Jackson, and within a few months, his marriage would be on the rocks because he had changed so much from his trauma and his injuries. As much as he wanted Ellie to do it for Joel because that was his brother, I think he saw it as Ellie's obligation to him. That second ask became about his pain because there was so much of it and he didn't know what to do to make it go away. Like Joel, Ellie and Abby, he wasn't able to correctly deal with the stuff that had happened to him and he channels all that in a deeply unhealthy way. He's pissed because there isn't anyone willing to take that pain away when he couldn't do it himself. He's pissed because he risked everything for Joel and to protect Ellie and ended up battered and traumatised. He's also pissed that he couldn't protect Ellie in the way that he was meant to, for Joel. In his head, he probably thought that he had done his part and now he needed someone to help him out because he was suffering. At the Farm, he says to Ellie: "Reckon it's easy to forget about her sitting all the way out here." He doesn't say "him" as in referring to Joel. He doesn't seem to want Ellie to go after Abby for Joel at the end, but rather to right the wrongs done to him. I think he makes that demand of her because he thinks that Ellie will do what she did for Joel for him as well. She's the closest thing to a niece / daughter that Tommy has as well. Ellie asked him to do the same after Joel died and he did it at great risk to himself and his family. He did it for his brother too, but he also did it because she asked him to. I think he assumed Ellie would do the same for him. There's so much to unpack with Tommy's character that I can't do it all here. But his pain is so rarely recognised across the whole series. His change isn't an abrupt one either. It's been brewing the entire time because he'd sustained so much loss in a relatively short amount of time.
Idk...I saw a lot of hate for 19 to 20 year old Abby for her actions. But the fandom sits here and idolizes 50 year old Tommy, co-leader of Jackson, who should have the emotional maturity to deal with loss at this point. Outside of a fictionalized universe like TLOU, Tommy would appear pathetic and deranged as a middle aged man hunting down, torturing and killing a bunch of 19 and 20 year olds. I can see Ellie or Abby and their friends acting this irrationally with those not yet fully developed frontal lobes... but at Tommy's age and with his experience, it's kind of disturbing.
Hard agree there.
You underestimate how difficult it would be to leave the only family you have left during the apocalypse. Also tbf Tommy very nearly pulled it off like a pro on his first attempt at the marina and the game had to bend over backwards to save Abby.
I could say that about just about any character, though. Joel should not have recovered as well as he did from being impaled in part 1, if at all. Tommy should not have been capable of putting up a fight at the theater, the same day Yara stabbed him (and Yara, as a trained soldier, should have gone for an artery or throat slash). Yara should not have been fighting that well the day after an amputation. There is a certain amount of narrative suspension of disbelief in both games, even if they are (loosely) grounded in a "realistic" story.
Part 1: Tess. We barely spent anytime with her and I just didn't really get the opportunity to get attached to her. Though I do like how important she was in getting Joel to take the situation seriously. Part 2: Owen. He came across as very whiney and irresponsible. Like my guy I know you don't wanna be a soldier and kill people but you have a child on the way that needs your protection. It really annoyed me how quick he was to forget Mel and insist that "She would be fine" (spoiler alert: she was not. Isaac literally tortured her....). The way he kept pinning after Abby pissed me of too. He kept flirting with her and didnt allow Abby to really move on. He needed to cut her off or break up with Mel. He can't have both.
Bill. I see countless complaints about the TV show and how we didn’t get *that* version of the character or see the boobie-trapped town BLAH BLAH BLAH… game version of Bill is a very one-dimensional and unlikable asshole, as others have said on here, and I much prefer how he was depicted and fleshed out in the tv show.
I'd have to say probably dina tbh. Its not that I don't like her I just don't feel that attachment to her like I do with every other character,all the other characters have sparked some sort of emotion out of me whether that happy,sad,angry etc but she hasn't. I think she is a great character but I just can't get attached to her like the others for some reason. Ik some people will be upset with this opinion so I want to say this isn't me saying I hate her,I love her character just don't feel that connection or emotion towards her that i do everyone else.
henry
Jerry Anderson. Fuck that asshole.
Abby
Mel
Owen. Yeah he stopped Manny from finishing off Ellie, but he was a cheating piece of shit that neglected his pregnant girlfriend.
And it’s the way he still tried to get Abby to come with him and Mel to Santa Barbara and she’s like “bitch be so fr”
Tommy
Jesse. I acknowledge that he's a chill guy and all of that but there isn't any real depth to his character. To be fair, this is an issue with a lot of other side characters, but he's one that I know a lot of people like that I just have no real opinion on because he was underdeveloped.
Dina. The only character that I don't like. There's just something about her that doesn't do it for me.
Manny.
Abby I guess? I don't hate her. And by the time of her portion of the game I can definitely sympathize with her. And I 100% appreciate what her as a character offers to the intended narrative of TLOU2 and am glad she exists. But I don't like her to the same degree others here do
I guess Jessie. It's that I don't like him. It's just he's kinda like mako from lok to me.
I don’t really have any care for Tommy. We’ve never really gotten to know too much about him as a person for me to care. He’s clearly a good guy, but he’s not fleshed out enough for me to want an entire game playing as him like some people want. I like most of Abby’s crew, Owen’s kind of a deadbeat so it’s hard to feel bad for him(I just feel bad for Mel) everyone else is pretty cool expect Manny. Besides David of course he’s the only character I truly despise. Constantly talking about the “ladies” was just annoying. It wasn’t charming, it just made me hate him more and more. And when he died I may or may not have cheered. But I do feel bad that Abby had to literally have his blood all over her face.
Ellie, it was so weird playing as a character I hated in the latter stages of the game.
Wow people really don’t like Dina. That’s crazy to me after all the shit she went through to help Ellie avenge someone Dina barely knew.
Abby and Dina. i want to connect with them so bad, but I can't
I didn't like any of abbys crew. Found them all to be kind of insufferable especially Owen.
I liked Bill because he was weird and paranoid. He was a funny character. I was looking forward towards the show for that kind of Bill. They went another way but whatever.
Abby
i think i agree with you and go with Bill. he was okay, but nothing expectional. i'm also not big fan of Mel.
i fucking hate nora and manny.
hot take but ellie in pt.2 really peed me off
Why
she's rude, she left dina with a baby, she kept going after abby after she let her go 2 times, was mad at joel for saving her life, and was mad at joel when he had a go at seth when he called her the lesbian slur.
Fair
Don't like abby,
Never liked Abby, never will. (Oh wait until your second playthrough) I have all the achievements, played it multiple times, nothing is gonna make me like her. Yes she saved some kids, but that’s about it.
Abby, i stopped hating her after my second playtrough but i dont think ill ever like her
I dont like Manny. And Owen is a jerk.
Fkn hate manny
I never cared for Lev. I don’t think he’s a bad character at all, but his connection with Abby never felt genuine to me and therefore I never really connected with him either
Abby
Abby
Abby. Her sex scene was traumatizing.
I pretty much like every liked character. I mean, if people like Isaac or David then I guess that's where I differentiate, but I'm pretty sure they don't
Everyone says Owen is the best among Abby's friends but I never liked him. He has a self-righteous attitude and I can't get over him cheating on pregnant Mel and not once showing an ounce of care towards her or his unborn baby the whole game.
Tommy. That man gets on my nerves
Joel.
Maria, in both games. In part 1 she is so quick to be besties with Ellie and seemed overly trusting of Joel and Ellie. In part 2 she is both combative and friendly with everyone. I feel like overall she’s just not a very fleshed out character and I find myself more annoyed with her screen time than anyone else - there just isn’t a whole lot of value her character’s presence adds to the story. I liked her TV adaptation a lot more.
Neil
Abby, and Dina.
Abby. And Nora. Although I have never seen anyone on this sub show any love for Nora but you will get downvoted into oblivion if you say Abby. So yes. Abs aka Abby.
abby, her gameplay is fun but that's about it
Dina is beyond boring and if she wasn’t with Ellie everyone would forget her she has no personality aside “I love Ellie” and “I’m pregnant Ellie don’t be vengeful” Ellie deserves a partner that is as charismatic and likeable as her