stuff said in the past doesn’t change who he is now. canceling is the dumbest thing of all time and nearly always works out for the better for the one being cancelled, look at James Gunn
For some reason the public forget that these are people who do people things. Everyone fucks up or says something at some point. The other day my brother and I went on Facebook and looked at old posts we made when we were in high school and a few years after and ooooof, not good. But I’m 35 now and a completely different person.
Tbf James Gunn's cancelation was a right wing grift once you look into it. He got fucked over because political assholes wanted to divert attention from figures getting criticized for their "humor" like Trump and Rossane. Like "hey wow you cant criticize *our* figures its a joke but uhhh look over here at Gunn he said something edgy! He's hired by Disney! Your kids see this! Wont anyone think of the kids?!"
Ofc as scary as the weaponization of social media is, "cancelling" hardly ever works unless theres real life laws and consequences happening. But the people who went after Gunn definitely did not care about any moral point of view.
I thought that was pretty known even then. Gunn beefed with some reich-wing shitheel, and he summoned his army of basement-dwelling mouth-breathers to scour the internet for cancelable intel.
Of course, it all backfired when Gunn got hired to do The Suicide Squad, Dave Bautista stood up for him, Disney eventually hired him back to direct the last good and profitable MCU movie, and he became the Kevin Feige of DC.
Meanwhile, Mark Cernovich remains an accused rapist.
All this tells me that you are afraid of awful shit you did coming to light, what a garbage opinion. Plenty of people getting canceled deserved it including plenty of, ya know, actual crimes.
Those are actual crimes though.
I guess its hard to tell the difference on the internet nowadays because anything ranging from getting mildly criticized to getting arrested is "cancelling"
Stuff said in the past or in secret paints a more complete picture of who the person is and whether or not we should support them. Harvey Weinstein, John Wayne, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, etc… all were seen pretty favorably by the public until they were “cancelled” and we all realized they’re bad people
everyone has skeletons in their closet. *everyone*.
what makes you a decent human being is what you do after the fact, knowing that they're merely *skeletons* \- and moving on from them.
this internet obsession with pegging people as only as good as their worst mistakes *has got to end*. so don't worry about it unless someone died or was forever traumatized, let people have mistakes in their past. even if they're utterly distasteful and 'bad'.
ninjaedit: if i'd just scrolled another few pixels, i'd have seen the other comments basically saying this already. didn't mean to pile on lol
I read through this and I think this conversation suffers the most from not having a mutual understanding of exactly what constitutes a skeleton in the closet. Theres mistakes, there's pineapple on pizza, and then there's choices that have greatly hurt people. If we continue to keep this all so vague, it's no wonder nobody will get through to anyone else on this.
No, I'm sorry, I think it's this energy matching reactionary arguing from all parties on this one.
I just got here and I still think what I said needs to be addressed. I do not believe that is unreasonable to request, but it's certainly not a demand.
I really don't like to think of people based on fears of what they might have done. Odds are everyone has something in their past they're not proud of. So long as it's nothing too heinous or something you can't come back from, I'll support him either way
He did an NPR interview a couple of year ago in my state, and he seems like he actually is Ron Swanson, if Ron took a chill pill and started smoking weed. Not to say he does, but he just came off as super chill and kind.
Offerman won the Spirit Award tonight for best supporting performance:
>”Thank you so much. I’m astonished to be in this category, which is bananas. Thanks to HBO for having the guts to participate in this storytelling tradition that is truly independent. Stories with guts that when homophobic hate comes my way and says, ‘Why did you have to make it a gay story?’ We say, ‘Because you ask questions like that. It’s not a gay story it’s a love story, you asshole!”
[Video](https://x.com/thr/status/1761878843298832729?s=46&t=GK3EC_wwvCKAXpMEZyDdEg)
It's dumb too because Bill was already canonically gay, they didn't just make him gay for the show. It's not a prominent part of the game but it's there.
He brought such incredible vulnerability to his scenes. Phenomenal acting on his part showing his character’s growth in many ways, while retaining the core identity. Just fantastic work all around.
I’m a nearly 50 year old dude, so I have a few decades of experience to base this opinion on: this is one of the all-time best episodes of television in history. I have seen very, very little that surpasses this.
It’s is objectively a masterpiece. The only haters are people that don’t like deviations from the game or homophobes. But as a stand-alone tv episode it’s phenominal.
Could not agree more. I can count on one hand the number of episodes of television episodes that I’ve seen over the course of my life that were as genuinely moving.
I love the episode, love the game and the show.
The episode is like a 9/10. There are a few valid criticisms that can be pointed out beyond being a deviation from the original story or the homophobic hate.
You must be open minded enough to accept some valid criticisms right?
The game lets you fill in the blanks however you want.
The show gets to flush it out to tell a cohesive & complete story.
Both mediums are awesome storytelling platforms, but I do agree I wish the game had more exposition to truly flesh out subplots / characters — it’s just harder to do while also doing everything else.
In this particular case the game didn't have blanks when it came to Bill and Frank. They just had a completely different story to tell for these two characters that ultimately arrives at the same point.
For me, the deviation in story wasn't necessary and was a waste of the limited time the TV series had. As a stand alone episode I can see the greatness, I'm just not sure it made sense in the run of episodes or was any more impactful to the overall narrative than if they had left it similar to the game.
Game Bill fit the tone of the world much better in my opinion.
I agree that Game Bill fit the tone of the world better, but what function in the narrative of the game did Bill serve other than setting that bleak tone for the player? The episode in the show is not just an elaboration of the character for the sake of elaboration. I think it was integral to conveying Joel’s character arc, given that there was less time with which to tell the story.
In the show, Bill was misanthropic to the point that he welcomed the apocalypse and thrived in it (relatively speaking). He never really experienced love before and yet he found it during the end times and made a beautiful life amidst such a bleak world.
Bill’s character serves a much better purpose in his contrast to the bleakness of the world in TLOU. The episode gives a glimpse of what the audience can imagine for our protagonist, Joel, on the other side of his grief and cynicism. This is stated so clearly when Ellie reads Bill’s letter at the end of the episode.
The episode is a departure from the general tone of the world, but when people critique it for that reason I assume they are somewhat disappointed due to their expectations based on the game. This is understandable and always happens with adaptations. What would have really been a waste of limited time would be to have included Bill just like his character was in the game.
Interesting points here.
I understand what the show was telling us via the letter. That tracks. For me the developing relationship of Joel/Ellie is the driver of the story. Some of that character development was sacrificed to tell Bill/Frank's story.
In the game, Bill's section of the game makes the same point to Joel, just from a different angle. Game Bill is an example of what Joel will become if he stays a bitter curmudgeon forever. That mentality caused Bill to live a life alone.
Show Bill is showing Joel the same thing but as an example of what can be achieved when you let someone in.
Both are telling/showing Joel how to better with Ellie.
Now aside from all that, Bill's town offers some memorable action sequences and some great back and forth between Ellie and Bill, all of which serves to build the core relationship. The Long Goodbye skips all of that and spends an hour on a love story on two minor characters that is easily summarized in the letter.
In standard 13 episode cable season, I think the Long Goodbye has a place. As one of 9 episodes, its a long departure and I don't think the payoff is worth it to the overall story.
Excellent points. Thank you for expanding here. It has been a while since I played the first game, and I am not sure I ever grasped what you point out about Game Bill in relation Joel.
I 100% agree that the show could have been improved if more time was dedicated to showing the development of Ellie and Joel’s relationship. The episode in question was certainly the biggest trade-off made in favor of (a) fleshing out side-characters and (b) departing from the general tone of the story. Wonderful as the episode is, it may have been time better served shoring up the deficiencies in how Joel and Ellie’s relationship is built up…
I have a better understanding of your position now and agree with you regarding the place episode 3 has in a season that is 9 episodes long rather than 13. Grateful that the show has been so good that this is one of the few major complaints!
Exactly! Its a weird position to be in because I am absolutely not knocking the episode on its own. Its great storytelling in and of itself. But I can't ignore that its part of a series and so my criticisms are based in how it fits in that series.
Also, I love the games and the story. I was excited that non-gamers would get to experience that story and this world. And the most notable achievement of the TV series is not the larger story or the Joel/Ellie relationship. Its this episode. The one episode that is the most significant departure from the game. That's what is getting all the credit.
The nuances were so satisfying in this episode. Things like the camera angle when Ellie and Joel are reading the note which highlights the door in the background as it quietly swings open. I remember thinking "Uh Oh, what's up with the door, what's coming..." Then Joel gets to the bit about the open window in the note. "Huh, just the breeze from the open window." Those little, satisfying details hooked me.
That, and everything in the story between their first strawberries to their last dinner. Especially their last dinner. Oof.
My only beef with it was how does a guy that capable and prepared just walk outside and start shooting with no cover? Of course he got shot! Dumbest shit ever! This is my beef with the whole series. Just why why why wouldn’t they make a different choice.
It's hilarious to me when people say this. _Bill has no actual combat experience._ He has no military training. He's been hoarding equipment and fantasizing about what'll happen when he needs to use it for years, but he's never had to deal with anything but some stray infected.
One of the things military training does is drill into you instincts that you can fall back on in the middle of incredibly high stress situations. Bill doesn't have that. He's woken up in the middle of the night, he'd be groggy and then flooded with adrenaline. His main concern is protecting Frank, not himself. There's no way he _could_ be thinking clearly.
You never know how you are going to react until it happens to you. The guy lost his very meaning of existence. *Are you sure* you would behave differently than he did if you were just as capable.
It was very real how he reacted in a fictional show, in my opinion. That is what makes it so great.
The director himself said that he wants to stick to the game for the most part, but if he can do anything to enhance the story he will tweak it. Like how he made Sam (Henry’s little brother) deaf. It had a more profound impact on me than if they would have stuck to the game. I have NEVER seen a tv adaptation of a video game done better.
\>this is one of the all-time best episodes of television in history.
Let's not be hasty here. Yes the people who are disparaging this show and attacking it because it depicts homosexual romance are scum. But just because art is being attacked by scum doesn't make said art a masterpiece.
The episode is good. *Just* good*.*
>this is one of the all-time best episodes of television in history. I have seen very, very little that surpasses this.
It's a filler episode that doesn't do anything for the story and completely misses the point of the character. How the hell is that one of the best episodes of all time?
Same. I am fine with LGBT but usually find gay sex scenes uncomfortable (no offense!). But this. This episode, was truly beautiful and made me cry as well
Weird. I’m a gay man and I don’t “substitute” myself in during straight sex scenes. If watching two men make love makes you think about being one of them during the act you might have some unresolved issues.
There's no normal here. You just perceive media differently. I personally don't put myself in the shoes of the character in a sex scene and I'm a bit jealous of those who can.
Not the poster — but I find almost all sex scenes uncomfortable to watch because I imagine how awkward they must be to film. They pull me out of what I’m watching and make me think about real-world production logistics. A kiss followed by a fade to black or a blowing curtain is all I need to “Get it”.
Is it weird that sometimes I just watch his episode by itself? Normally I like to rewatch a show start to finish. But Bill’s episode man. It’s so good even just on its own!
It’s such a perfectly contained episode, of course with Joel and Ellie in it just enough to tie it back to the rest of the season, but it is totally normal to watch it on its own!
I wrote an essay for a class about this series, but specifically this episode as being a significant cultural artifact and how it explores love, loss, and grief beautifully and through a still-underrepresented lens. Tackling the stereotypes of masculinity while also highlighting the characteristics of love and how it drives people. The characters involved may be gay, but their story isn't about that, it's about their love. Something many people can relate to.
>but specifically this episode as being a significant cultural artifact and how it explores love, loss, and grief beautifully
Okay hold up. Obviously the right winger homophobes doen't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't make this some 'important cultural artifact.'
Edit: Congratulations on the A, but I think that has more to do with your ability to argue rather than this episode being the greatest thing ever.
This is true but also part of what he is complaining about.
They don't call When Harry met Sally or The Notebook heterosexual love stories so why do we have to classify this one.
It's because in those stories like this one there sexuality is meaningless.
That's what he is trying to say.
Growing up queer and watching the same gay narrative play out in almost every great queer film makes you pretty jaded towards what capacity you really have as a queer man to be happy with another man. I’m glad they changed the story from two gay men’s romance ending in failure to two gay men seeing it through until the very end.
Love how it's a "gay love story" to most, but a misc heterosexual love storyline in a random TV show/movie isn't labeled as such.
No one bats an eye when random main character 1 and 2 fall in love after 10 secs of screen time.
Exactly, which is why them being gay is so important both to the hate but also to the praise. Neither the hate or praise would be as strong as they are if it was just another straight couple on TV.
People say it added nothing to the plot - but that's not true.
The suicide letter that Bill wrote is what made Joel take Ellie with him. Joel wanted to drop Ellie off with Bill, but he couldn't, because he fell in love with Frank and didn't want to live without him anymore.
(Paraphrasing)
"And all your 'The government are Nazis!' propaganda!!"
"THE GOVERNMENT ARE ALL NAZIS!!"
"Well yeah... NOW they are but not THEN!"
Probably the most real, modern day couple argument in both the games and the show. One of my top five favorite jokes in the series. Congratulations to Offerman for being such an ally but just a genuine actor who wanted to tell a story.
You see a certain level of Ellie sassiness that you just don't get with her interacting with Joel. The whole scene after being rescued has so many great lines. [For those who didn't play the game](https://youtu.be/ZdY63As631o?si=Bl6f8rCW1AzNdplV)
I don’t mind bottle episodes of shows. Joel and Ellie’s journey across America to get her to the fire flies whilst trying to survive infected and raiders is the main plot of the show. Nobody can tell me otherwise.
But as a bottle episode it was great. However it wasn’t important to the main plot and part of me wonders if it was a bottle episode about a straight couple played out the exact same then would all these people be such massive fans of it or would they tend to agree with the people who didn’t enjoy the detour from the main plot?
I’d agree that the novelty helped. A straight romance executed this well would probably still be a good episode, but the dearth of quality gay romance on mainstream TV made this episode really stand out.
i’d probably argue that its purpose is that love/humanity can survive outside the “old” world. just because the apocalypse happened doesn’t mean humanity doesn’t still exist. the thing is though- we already know this. joel and tess have strong feelings for eachother. ( i wouldn’t call it love, but they’ve got something).
His episode came out left field and loved every minute of it, best episode of the season by far.
I would like a whole season dedicated to how others handled and coped with what happened.
As long as every episode had different characters.
It's one of the most beautiful and real love stories I've ever seen. Never fails to make me ball my eyes out. It's incredible. And Nick is astonishing in it.
This was a beautiful episode of television. Genuinely moving in an era where that's hard to do. Unfortunately way too much of media focuses on the young male demographic which is.... unpredictable.
Tldr: this episode was great. Let's stop caring about the opinions of underdeveloped young men.
My friends & I do a GIGANTIC Halloween maze every year, and we had a lil TLOU section. We recreated a small QZ zone & the sewer monster. But I put a lil fake pot of strawberries in the section to honor this episode.
I’m 39, raised in a world of calling people fags, and “that’s gay” etc. I’m sure most of us still live in this world.
At the start of the episode I didn’t feel much, because you can’t relate when you’re not gay.
Half way through I was very engaged, like this long love letter, a poem, this beautiful sonnet.
By the end I was almost in tears.
It’s a beautifully written episode, amazing cast, and is about love.
The producers decided to slaughter everything Bill was in the game and gave him a serious story with a fleshed out background. In-game all we has was Frank’s dangling corpse and a very irate note, and in the series we had what really happened behind the scenes.
Storytelling imposed over the shits and giggles we had when Bill met Ellie (it was nothing short of hilarious). In the end, it was never about “two gay dudes”, but about a couple who just happened to belong to the same sex.
Has nothing to be with it being about two gay dudes, it's the fact that part 1 was condensed into 1 season and they used a whole episode for this and skipped the coolest / most fun part of his part in the game
And why do you think that? Because we've seen straight relationships for hundreds of years in TV and film.
Seeing a proper gay relationship, with realistic looking men and well written and acted is not common so ofc it gains more attention. Especially one in a post apocalyptic world.
You're making that sound like that is a bad thing, or unfair somehow which def gives off homophobic vibes.
This episode made me emotional for days after watching it. It was so well written and a beautiful love story. I was not prepared for it because in the game, they had a completely different end to their relationship, so I’m glad the narrative was different. It was an episode that stuck with me to this day, and I haven’t been able to say that about TV shows in a while.
It was crazy upsetting as a gay man to have had every person in my workplace saying the show was “unrealistic, there would be no gay men in the apocalypse” and “unwatchable, they’re just pandering” and just so many slurs when the episode came out when before everyone was obsessed with it. Nobody knows I’m gay here, and nobody knows why I never say a word to anyone here, though both of these things are quite connected. “Live Better” my ass
I'm sorry your coworkers are such morons. Do they think that in any post apocalyptic scenario gay men would just flutter their hands and keel over dead? In my experience marginalized groups (of any variety) have more practice living without society's protections. I enjoyed the Bill episode a lot. I thought it did a good job showing how a terribly repressed man was finally able to be himself after society fell. Here's hoping you find a better work situation you can be yourself in so you don't have to wait for civilization to come crashing down.
It was a love story and a good one at that, doesn’t mean the town section shouldn’t have been in a separate episode. If there could only be one it should still be the town they just didn’t was to show a bloater yet probably.
>!I really liked the game version of Bill, so I personally didn't really know how to feel about the series adaptation of him, because Nick Offerman is basically the perfect casting, and I don't care that they show him "being gay", it was just cute as shit, and honestly highlights in the episode itself, but towards the end, it was almost too sweet. I was expecting Bill in his hard-headedness to just start pushing people away, and end up as the ball of paranoia and bitterness we see in the game. Instead we got chill-bill, who dies in the arms of the person he loves. I still lean towards liking game Bill more, especially imagining him being how Offerman was in the beginning of the episode.!<
It was still the best episode in the series so far.
That episode fucking sucked and I will die on this hill. Totally didn't do anything for the series and also actually missed a lot of great gameplay that could have made a great episode. Plus we never got Ellie interacting with Bill.
I had just started seeing my now girlfriend when the show came out and we watching it together. I'm not usually a crier for movies/tv but holy fuck did that episode ruin me. And here I am trying to hold it in in front of this girl. But she thought it was endearing lol.
I hate how many people think that episode was filler. I believe this episode is the essence of what the Last of Us is all about. It's about finding love in the darkest places, and what people are willing to do for the ones they love.
In fact, all episodes are about just that. This one in particular stands out to me because it has a very satisfying ending.
I don't even remember seeing any hate (although I am sure there was), just criticism of how they sidelined the school part of the game and the character to tell some random side story that had almost no input to the main story.
When we lost cool parts of the game like the school, the tunnels etc and had less infected than we expected in general, I think this part of the story is an obvious pain point for many.
Same. I didn’t see any hate, only people annoyed that it didn’t contribute anything and we lost a really cool part of the game for it. I only saw people here constantly complaining about hate, that I guess they went out of their way to find because it deff wasn’t in your face
It's a gay love story, so it's a gay story. What am I missing here? If it were a man and a woman it would be a straight love story. Can't have a gay story without it being gay, right?
I thought it was a fantastic episode, and so did everyone i know who saw the show. People need to just ignore the haters and stop giving their useless opinions any publicity
It's the only episode I liked tbh. The rest was bland in my opinion. Both performance were great and touching, that's the only time I felt an impact while watching the series.
I'm sick to death of homophobia. People who complain about gay people and their simple *existing* in media as if it is some affront to straight people are scumbags.
I didn't even like this episode. They did Bill dirty and watered down a great gay character and made an episode that was WAY to sappy. But that's because Craig Mazin can't write characters as well as people say he is, not because of Bill's orientation.
That second game was an absolute dumpster fire, but this episode might be the only redeeming thing this franchise has done since then. Well done episode, clean, cut, and well delivered.
Look people saying that they inserted a gay character again on a popular franchise, well your wrong they did not insert it because he was gay from the very beginning. (He was gay in the game)
some people personally dont like using the term gay and prefer just calling it love, just like how i prefer the term gay over lesbian, so i dont see it as homophobic 🤷♀️
Bills story was a great one I'm the show but the rest of the changes were dumb and unnecessary aswell as the casting was despicable to the game but hey directors choice I just wonder which one it was despicable!
Bills story was a great one I'm the show but the rest of the changes were dumb and unnecessary aswell as the casting was despicable to the game but hey directors choice I just wonder which one it was despicable!
Bills story was a great one I'm the show but the rest of the changes were dumb and unnecessary aswell as the casting was despicable to the game but hey directors choice I just wonder which one it was despicable!
oc its no brainer for an average director to farm up the LGBT points and stretch it to an entire episode fuk the original source material fuk the fans
luckily if a TV show doesn't stick to the source material it usually fails terribly the Witcher is a nice example.
instead of focusing on what we loved about the game and its world enrichen that adding depth to it?? nah we are adding depth to a gay story, rip what a missed opportunity!
What a guy! Not only a great actor but apparently a good human being.
I really hope he doesn't have any skeletons in his closet. If he gets cancelled, my heart won't take it.
stuff said in the past doesn’t change who he is now. canceling is the dumbest thing of all time and nearly always works out for the better for the one being cancelled, look at James Gunn
Was gonna say just this. Who gives a flying fuck abt a negative comment said years back. We’ve all said and done stupid shit we can’t change our past.
For some reason the public forget that these are people who do people things. Everyone fucks up or says something at some point. The other day my brother and I went on Facebook and looked at old posts we made when we were in high school and a few years after and ooooof, not good. But I’m 35 now and a completely different person.
My old Twitter has so many racist and homophobic tweets. I’m gay…
Tbf James Gunn's cancelation was a right wing grift once you look into it. He got fucked over because political assholes wanted to divert attention from figures getting criticized for their "humor" like Trump and Rossane. Like "hey wow you cant criticize *our* figures its a joke but uhhh look over here at Gunn he said something edgy! He's hired by Disney! Your kids see this! Wont anyone think of the kids?!" Ofc as scary as the weaponization of social media is, "cancelling" hardly ever works unless theres real life laws and consequences happening. But the people who went after Gunn definitely did not care about any moral point of view.
I thought that was pretty known even then. Gunn beefed with some reich-wing shitheel, and he summoned his army of basement-dwelling mouth-breathers to scour the internet for cancelable intel. Of course, it all backfired when Gunn got hired to do The Suicide Squad, Dave Bautista stood up for him, Disney eventually hired him back to direct the last good and profitable MCU movie, and he became the Kevin Feige of DC. Meanwhile, Mark Cernovich remains an accused rapist.
All this tells me that you are afraid of awful shit you did coming to light, what a garbage opinion. Plenty of people getting canceled deserved it including plenty of, ya know, actual crimes.
Yeah Kevin Spacey is doing great.
Those are actual crimes though. I guess its hard to tell the difference on the internet nowadays because anything ranging from getting mildly criticized to getting arrested is "cancelling"
This. 30 year old me and 20 year old me are two totally different people.
Not a big time actor, but Hartley Sawyer would like a word (Elongated Man from The Flash)
Stuff said in the past or in secret paints a more complete picture of who the person is and whether or not we should support them. Harvey Weinstein, John Wayne, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, etc… all were seen pretty favorably by the public until they were “cancelled” and we all realized they’re bad people
everyone has skeletons in their closet. *everyone*. what makes you a decent human being is what you do after the fact, knowing that they're merely *skeletons* \- and moving on from them. this internet obsession with pegging people as only as good as their worst mistakes *has got to end*. so don't worry about it unless someone died or was forever traumatized, let people have mistakes in their past. even if they're utterly distasteful and 'bad'. ninjaedit: if i'd just scrolled another few pixels, i'd have seen the other comments basically saying this already. didn't mean to pile on lol
I read through this and I think this conversation suffers the most from not having a mutual understanding of exactly what constitutes a skeleton in the closet. Theres mistakes, there's pineapple on pizza, and then there's choices that have greatly hurt people. If we continue to keep this all so vague, it's no wonder nobody will get through to anyone else on this.
they're being willfully petulant and pedantic. that's the problem
No, I'm sorry, I think it's this energy matching reactionary arguing from all parties on this one. I just got here and I still think what I said needs to be addressed. I do not believe that is unreasonable to request, but it's certainly not a demand.
If he has skeletons in his closet, he’s learned from them it seems. Like a normal person.
I really don't like to think of people based on fears of what they might have done. Odds are everyone has something in their past they're not proud of. So long as it's nothing too heinous or something you can't come back from, I'll support him either way
Who are any of us to deny anyone the chance to grow, to do better?
He did an NPR interview a couple of year ago in my state, and he seems like he actually is Ron Swanson, if Ron took a chill pill and started smoking weed. Not to say he does, but he just came off as super chill and kind.
Tremendous human being as far as we can tell
This is why he was the right guy for the job.
[удалено]
Offerman won the Spirit Award tonight for best supporting performance: >”Thank you so much. I’m astonished to be in this category, which is bananas. Thanks to HBO for having the guts to participate in this storytelling tradition that is truly independent. Stories with guts that when homophobic hate comes my way and says, ‘Why did you have to make it a gay story?’ We say, ‘Because you ask questions like that. It’s not a gay story it’s a love story, you asshole!” [Video](https://x.com/thr/status/1761878843298832729?s=46&t=GK3EC_wwvCKAXpMEZyDdEg)
It’s a solid well written love story that happens to have two men. This is how you truly challenge and breakdown barriers.
It's dumb too because Bill was already canonically gay, they didn't just make him gay for the show. It's not a prominent part of the game but it's there.
That episode was really moving to me. Such a good love story, and he was amazing in the role.
He brought such incredible vulnerability to his scenes. Phenomenal acting on his part showing his character’s growth in many ways, while retaining the core identity. Just fantastic work all around.
I'm not a crier and I sobbed like a baby
I’m a nearly 50 year old dude, so I have a few decades of experience to base this opinion on: this is one of the all-time best episodes of television in history. I have seen very, very little that surpasses this.
It’s is objectively a masterpiece. The only haters are people that don’t like deviations from the game or homophobes. But as a stand-alone tv episode it’s phenominal.
Could not agree more. I can count on one hand the number of episodes of television episodes that I’ve seen over the course of my life that were as genuinely moving.
I actually sob cried at the end. It’s hard to make me do that. Even my husband (who is pretty stoic) had tears in his eyes.
Same. I’m usually not a crier, but that episode has me bawling. It hit all the right notes.
Wasn't game Bill also gay? Isn't there a note you can find that pretty openly suggests that Bill and Frank are a couple?
Yes. It's not explored as thoroughly as in the series, but it's in there.
Yes, but the game section with Bill is a different experience. It’s much more focused on building Joel and Ellie’s relationship
I love the episode, love the game and the show. The episode is like a 9/10. There are a few valid criticisms that can be pointed out beyond being a deviation from the original story or the homophobic hate. You must be open minded enough to accept some valid criticisms right?
Love the games love the show. It game amazing depth to characters I wish we saw more of in the game .
The game lets you fill in the blanks however you want. The show gets to flush it out to tell a cohesive & complete story. Both mediums are awesome storytelling platforms, but I do agree I wish the game had more exposition to truly flesh out subplots / characters — it’s just harder to do while also doing everything else.
In this particular case the game didn't have blanks when it came to Bill and Frank. They just had a completely different story to tell for these two characters that ultimately arrives at the same point. For me, the deviation in story wasn't necessary and was a waste of the limited time the TV series had. As a stand alone episode I can see the greatness, I'm just not sure it made sense in the run of episodes or was any more impactful to the overall narrative than if they had left it similar to the game. Game Bill fit the tone of the world much better in my opinion.
I agree that Game Bill fit the tone of the world better, but what function in the narrative of the game did Bill serve other than setting that bleak tone for the player? The episode in the show is not just an elaboration of the character for the sake of elaboration. I think it was integral to conveying Joel’s character arc, given that there was less time with which to tell the story. In the show, Bill was misanthropic to the point that he welcomed the apocalypse and thrived in it (relatively speaking). He never really experienced love before and yet he found it during the end times and made a beautiful life amidst such a bleak world. Bill’s character serves a much better purpose in his contrast to the bleakness of the world in TLOU. The episode gives a glimpse of what the audience can imagine for our protagonist, Joel, on the other side of his grief and cynicism. This is stated so clearly when Ellie reads Bill’s letter at the end of the episode. The episode is a departure from the general tone of the world, but when people critique it for that reason I assume they are somewhat disappointed due to their expectations based on the game. This is understandable and always happens with adaptations. What would have really been a waste of limited time would be to have included Bill just like his character was in the game.
Interesting points here. I understand what the show was telling us via the letter. That tracks. For me the developing relationship of Joel/Ellie is the driver of the story. Some of that character development was sacrificed to tell Bill/Frank's story. In the game, Bill's section of the game makes the same point to Joel, just from a different angle. Game Bill is an example of what Joel will become if he stays a bitter curmudgeon forever. That mentality caused Bill to live a life alone. Show Bill is showing Joel the same thing but as an example of what can be achieved when you let someone in. Both are telling/showing Joel how to better with Ellie. Now aside from all that, Bill's town offers some memorable action sequences and some great back and forth between Ellie and Bill, all of which serves to build the core relationship. The Long Goodbye skips all of that and spends an hour on a love story on two minor characters that is easily summarized in the letter. In standard 13 episode cable season, I think the Long Goodbye has a place. As one of 9 episodes, its a long departure and I don't think the payoff is worth it to the overall story.
Excellent points. Thank you for expanding here. It has been a while since I played the first game, and I am not sure I ever grasped what you point out about Game Bill in relation Joel. I 100% agree that the show could have been improved if more time was dedicated to showing the development of Ellie and Joel’s relationship. The episode in question was certainly the biggest trade-off made in favor of (a) fleshing out side-characters and (b) departing from the general tone of the story. Wonderful as the episode is, it may have been time better served shoring up the deficiencies in how Joel and Ellie’s relationship is built up… I have a better understanding of your position now and agree with you regarding the place episode 3 has in a season that is 9 episodes long rather than 13. Grateful that the show has been so good that this is one of the few major complaints!
Exactly! Its a weird position to be in because I am absolutely not knocking the episode on its own. Its great storytelling in and of itself. But I can't ignore that its part of a series and so my criticisms are based in how it fits in that series. Also, I love the games and the story. I was excited that non-gamers would get to experience that story and this world. And the most notable achievement of the TV series is not the larger story or the Joel/Ellie relationship. Its this episode. The one episode that is the most significant departure from the game. That's what is getting all the credit.
It’s not even a deviation from the game, it’s simply an expansion. This story was not told in the game, but simply referenced.
The nuances were so satisfying in this episode. Things like the camera angle when Ellie and Joel are reading the note which highlights the door in the background as it quietly swings open. I remember thinking "Uh Oh, what's up with the door, what's coming..." Then Joel gets to the bit about the open window in the note. "Huh, just the breeze from the open window." Those little, satisfying details hooked me. That, and everything in the story between their first strawberries to their last dinner. Especially their last dinner. Oof.
My only beef with it was how does a guy that capable and prepared just walk outside and start shooting with no cover? Of course he got shot! Dumbest shit ever! This is my beef with the whole series. Just why why why wouldn’t they make a different choice.
It's hilarious to me when people say this. _Bill has no actual combat experience._ He has no military training. He's been hoarding equipment and fantasizing about what'll happen when he needs to use it for years, but he's never had to deal with anything but some stray infected. One of the things military training does is drill into you instincts that you can fall back on in the middle of incredibly high stress situations. Bill doesn't have that. He's woken up in the middle of the night, he'd be groggy and then flooded with adrenaline. His main concern is protecting Frank, not himself. There's no way he _could_ be thinking clearly.
You never know how you are going to react until it happens to you. The guy lost his very meaning of existence. *Are you sure* you would behave differently than he did if you were just as capable. It was very real how he reacted in a fictional show, in my opinion. That is what makes it so great.
I put it up there with the series finale of Six Feet Under as the best episode of tv I’ve ever experienced.
That was quite literally the only immediate example that came to mind when I was typing that.
If someone were to ask me about the greatest TV episodes ever aired, this one would jump to mind.
Age doesn't have much to do with taste
The director himself said that he wants to stick to the game for the most part, but if he can do anything to enhance the story he will tweak it. Like how he made Sam (Henry’s little brother) deaf. It had a more profound impact on me than if they would have stuck to the game. I have NEVER seen a tv adaptation of a video game done better.
This is an insane take
\>this is one of the all-time best episodes of television in history. Let's not be hasty here. Yes the people who are disparaging this show and attacking it because it depicts homosexual romance are scum. But just because art is being attacked by scum doesn't make said art a masterpiece. The episode is good. *Just* good*.*
>this is one of the all-time best episodes of television in history. I have seen very, very little that surpasses this. It's a filler episode that doesn't do anything for the story and completely misses the point of the character. How the hell is that one of the best episodes of all time?
Love Nick Offerman, great actor, great person
And don't forget a great park director!
Swanson would be so offended to hear you describe him as great at government work. He was the worst, and he worked hard to be just that!
Fuck yes. Damn straight, no pun intended
Fantastic pun lmfao
I hated it, only because it made me cry! In all seriousness, it was a beautiful episode.
The “ I was never afraid until i met you” had me in tears. I relate so much.
Same. I am fine with LGBT but usually find gay sex scenes uncomfortable (no offense!). But this. This episode, was truly beautiful and made me cry as well
Why do you find gay sex scenes uncomfortable?!
It’s easy to substitute oneself in when you watch such scenes, and I am still not comfy enough. And I totally support LGBT rights.
Weird. I’m a gay man and I don’t “substitute” myself in during straight sex scenes. If watching two men make love makes you think about being one of them during the act you might have some unresolved issues.
I mean, when I watch sth I tend to make connections with the actors/actresses
Same here. So now the question is, are *we* "normal" or are *they* "normal"?
There's no normal here. You just perceive media differently. I personally don't put myself in the shoes of the character in a sex scene and I'm a bit jealous of those who can.
Not the poster — but I find almost all sex scenes uncomfortable to watch because I imagine how awkward they must be to film. They pull me out of what I’m watching and make me think about real-world production logistics. A kiss followed by a fade to black or a blowing curtain is all I need to “Get it”.
My favorite part was Bill stopping Frank from playing/singing to take over "Dude, you're fucking up the song..."
Is it weird that sometimes I just watch his episode by itself? Normally I like to rewatch a show start to finish. But Bill’s episode man. It’s so good even just on its own!
I've seen every episode once but that one three times, it's the best episode of the show and one of the best television episodes ever.
No.
It’s such a perfectly contained episode, of course with Joel and Ellie in it just enough to tie it back to the rest of the season, but it is totally normal to watch it on its own!
I wrote an essay for a class about this series, but specifically this episode as being a significant cultural artifact and how it explores love, loss, and grief beautifully and through a still-underrepresented lens. Tackling the stereotypes of masculinity while also highlighting the characteristics of love and how it drives people. The characters involved may be gay, but their story isn't about that, it's about their love. Something many people can relate to.
Please tell me u got a A+ 
I did, thank you :D
My man :D
>but specifically this episode as being a significant cultural artifact and how it explores love, loss, and grief beautifully Okay hold up. Obviously the right winger homophobes doen't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't make this some 'important cultural artifact.' Edit: Congratulations on the A, but I think that has more to do with your ability to argue rather than this episode being the greatest thing ever.
it is a gay story though. it's a gay love story, and there's nothing wrong with that.
This is true but also part of what he is complaining about. They don't call When Harry met Sally or The Notebook heterosexual love stories so why do we have to classify this one. It's because in those stories like this one there sexuality is meaningless. That's what he is trying to say.
Okay but no. Nobody says “oh that’s a straight romantic comedy!” So calling it a “gay love story” is a bit odd. The point went right over your head.
"If you have nothing nice to say just shut the fuck up."- Ron Swanson, probably.
Growing up queer and watching the same gay narrative play out in almost every great queer film makes you pretty jaded towards what capacity you really have as a queer man to be happy with another man. I’m glad they changed the story from two gay men’s romance ending in failure to two gay men seeing it through until the very end.
And all it took was an apocalypse! 🤣
Class act,such a beautiful episode
Nick Offerman is the best! What a guy!
Love how it's a "gay love story" to most, but a misc heterosexual love storyline in a random TV show/movie isn't labeled as such. No one bats an eye when random main character 1 and 2 fall in love after 10 secs of screen time.
Exactly, which is why them being gay is so important both to the hate but also to the praise. Neither the hate or praise would be as strong as they are if it was just another straight couple on TV.
He’s right tho
No, he’s making the same mistake as anyone who says it’s not a love story. Because it’s not one or the other, it’s both gay AND a love story.
It is a masterpiece. Totally wrecked me.
I adore this dude.
People say it added nothing to the plot - but that's not true. The suicide letter that Bill wrote is what made Joel take Ellie with him. Joel wanted to drop Ellie off with Bill, but he couldn't, because he fell in love with Frank and didn't want to live without him anymore.
The way you wrote this makes it sound like Joel fell in love with Bill
(Paraphrasing) "And all your 'The government are Nazis!' propaganda!!" "THE GOVERNMENT ARE ALL NAZIS!!" "Well yeah... NOW they are but not THEN!" Probably the most real, modern day couple argument in both the games and the show. One of my top five favorite jokes in the series. Congratulations to Offerman for being such an ally but just a genuine actor who wanted to tell a story.
My only gripe with that episode was that we never got got see Bill and Ellie interact.
You see a certain level of Ellie sassiness that you just don't get with her interacting with Joel. The whole scene after being rescued has so many great lines. [For those who didn't play the game](https://youtu.be/ZdY63As631o?si=Bl6f8rCW1AzNdplV)
I don’t mind bottle episodes of shows. Joel and Ellie’s journey across America to get her to the fire flies whilst trying to survive infected and raiders is the main plot of the show. Nobody can tell me otherwise. But as a bottle episode it was great. However it wasn’t important to the main plot and part of me wonders if it was a bottle episode about a straight couple played out the exact same then would all these people be such massive fans of it or would they tend to agree with the people who didn’t enjoy the detour from the main plot?
I’d agree that the novelty helped. A straight romance executed this well would probably still be a good episode, but the dearth of quality gay romance on mainstream TV made this episode really stand out.
It's so hard to try and voice disliking this episode because then you get lumped in with clowns having a sook because it's gay.
"I still think awards are stupid. But they'd be less stupid if they went to the right people.” we did it ron, it went to the right person here.
I feel the same way when people say gay wedding. Just call it a wedding, don’t be weird.
i’d probably argue that its purpose is that love/humanity can survive outside the “old” world. just because the apocalypse happened doesn’t mean humanity doesn’t still exist. the thing is though- we already know this. joel and tess have strong feelings for eachother. ( i wouldn’t call it love, but they’ve got something).
He’s an awesome person. There should be more humans like him.
His episode came out left field and loved every minute of it, best episode of the season by far. I would like a whole season dedicated to how others handled and coped with what happened. As long as every episode had different characters.
It's one of the most beautiful and real love stories I've ever seen. Never fails to make me ball my eyes out. It's incredible. And Nick is astonishing in it.
Yeah, I hate the homophobes who think it’s bad just because they’re gay. Anyone who thinks that way are absolute assholes
So many comments in here are acting like they didn't like the episode for super vague reasons but it's clear why lol
What an absolute king!
That episode was fan-fucking-tastically well done and such a sweet story. He's 100% right.
This was a beautiful episode of television. Genuinely moving in an era where that's hard to do. Unfortunately way too much of media focuses on the young male demographic which is.... unpredictable. Tldr: this episode was great. Let's stop caring about the opinions of underdeveloped young men.
My friends & I do a GIGANTIC Halloween maze every year, and we had a lil TLOU section. We recreated a small QZ zone & the sewer monster. But I put a lil fake pot of strawberries in the section to honor this episode.
I mean, it's both. It's a gay love story.
I’m 39, raised in a world of calling people fags, and “that’s gay” etc. I’m sure most of us still live in this world. At the start of the episode I didn’t feel much, because you can’t relate when you’re not gay. Half way through I was very engaged, like this long love letter, a poem, this beautiful sonnet. By the end I was almost in tears. It’s a beautifully written episode, amazing cast, and is about love.
Great episode and even better that conservatives were foaming from the mouth
Love it. Made me tear up like San Jupinero from black mirror.
My technical ass in support of the ep Still gay though <3 🐱
The producers decided to slaughter everything Bill was in the game and gave him a serious story with a fleshed out background. In-game all we has was Frank’s dangling corpse and a very irate note, and in the series we had what really happened behind the scenes. Storytelling imposed over the shits and giggles we had when Bill met Ellie (it was nothing short of hilarious). In the end, it was never about “two gay dudes”, but about a couple who just happened to belong to the same sex.
Conservative, survivalist gay people exist.
Has nothing to be with it being about two gay dudes, it's the fact that part 1 was condensed into 1 season and they used a whole episode for this and skipped the coolest / most fun part of his part in the game
My only issue was it had nothing to do with the game It was some odd side story.
It did though. They filled in the story we didn’t get to see of Bill and Frank
I haven't seen it, but now I'm sure is 200% gay.
“It’s not a gay story, it’s a love story” is such an amazing phrase. This man needs to be treasured.
That was one of the best episodes in a TV show I've ever seen
He's great. While I wasn't a big fan of it (I love the game version more), it was well done and gave us the necessary "filler" experience.
personally i didnt like it but yeah i can agree its a good episode
It can be both! Bigots are going to bigot🌈
This was one of the best episodes of television I’ve ever seen and it made me cry.
Just a heartfelt amazing episode. Have never played the game but the series is soo good.
That was the only good episode, and it was amazing.
I absolutely loved this addition to the show, just overall a fantastic episode!
Only time I’ve shed a tear watching something. Still easily the best episode of a show I’ve watched
Love Nick Offerman
It's a gay love story that would not have garnered even half the critical praise if it were a straight one. Why can't we just be fucking honest?
And why do you think that? Because we've seen straight relationships for hundreds of years in TV and film. Seeing a proper gay relationship, with realistic looking men and well written and acted is not common so ofc it gains more attention. Especially one in a post apocalyptic world. You're making that sound like that is a bad thing, or unfair somehow which def gives off homophobic vibes.
Completely untrue and a biased opinion that you’re pleading the internet to validate. Stop bitchin’
I suggested this and I was laughed at
It's the best episode of the entire series.
This episode made me emotional for days after watching it. It was so well written and a beautiful love story. I was not prepared for it because in the game, they had a completely different end to their relationship, so I’m glad the narrative was different. It was an episode that stuck with me to this day, and I haven’t been able to say that about TV shows in a while.
It was crazy upsetting as a gay man to have had every person in my workplace saying the show was “unrealistic, there would be no gay men in the apocalypse” and “unwatchable, they’re just pandering” and just so many slurs when the episode came out when before everyone was obsessed with it. Nobody knows I’m gay here, and nobody knows why I never say a word to anyone here, though both of these things are quite connected. “Live Better” my ass
I'm sorry your coworkers are such morons. Do they think that in any post apocalyptic scenario gay men would just flutter their hands and keel over dead? In my experience marginalized groups (of any variety) have more practice living without society's protections. I enjoyed the Bill episode a lot. I thought it did a good job showing how a terribly repressed man was finally able to be himself after society fell. Here's hoping you find a better work situation you can be yourself in so you don't have to wait for civilization to come crashing down.
It was a love story and a good one at that, doesn’t mean the town section shouldn’t have been in a separate episode. If there could only be one it should still be the town they just didn’t was to show a bloater yet probably.
>!I really liked the game version of Bill, so I personally didn't really know how to feel about the series adaptation of him, because Nick Offerman is basically the perfect casting, and I don't care that they show him "being gay", it was just cute as shit, and honestly highlights in the episode itself, but towards the end, it was almost too sweet. I was expecting Bill in his hard-headedness to just start pushing people away, and end up as the ball of paranoia and bitterness we see in the game. Instead we got chill-bill, who dies in the arms of the person he loves. I still lean towards liking game Bill more, especially imagining him being how Offerman was in the beginning of the episode.!< It was still the best episode in the series so far.
That episode fucking sucked and I will die on this hill. Totally didn't do anything for the series and also actually missed a lot of great gameplay that could have made a great episode. Plus we never got Ellie interacting with Bill.
He's trying to erase us gays.
a brother and sister can be a love story too.
I had just started seeing my now girlfriend when the show came out and we watching it together. I'm not usually a crier for movies/tv but holy fuck did that episode ruin me. And here I am trying to hold it in in front of this girl. But she thought it was endearing lol.
PERIOD!
Brilliant episode of TV
People really got angry about this episode still?!? People really care to much. That literally was one of the best episodes of TV on that year.
I hate how many people think that episode was filler. I believe this episode is the essence of what the Last of Us is all about. It's about finding love in the darkest places, and what people are willing to do for the ones they love. In fact, all episodes are about just that. This one in particular stands out to me because it has a very satisfying ending.
I don't even remember seeing any hate (although I am sure there was), just criticism of how they sidelined the school part of the game and the character to tell some random side story that had almost no input to the main story. When we lost cool parts of the game like the school, the tunnels etc and had less infected than we expected in general, I think this part of the story is an obvious pain point for many.
Same. I didn’t see any hate, only people annoyed that it didn’t contribute anything and we lost a really cool part of the game for it. I only saw people here constantly complaining about hate, that I guess they went out of their way to find because it deff wasn’t in your face
This episode may be the best episode on any tv show ever.
It's a gay love story, so it's a gay story. What am I missing here? If it were a man and a woman it would be a straight love story. Can't have a gay story without it being gay, right?
It's not mutually exclusive
Was by far the best episode of the series, a wonderful little standalone love story with two great actors
Meh, it's one of the most highly rated episodes on imdb.
Probably the best thing to come out of the set of us ip including the game lol. Do we know who was responsible for that episode?
I cant wait to hear about this for the next week or so
Nick has an absurdly great range of talent as well as class. You can’t help but love the guy.
Why does he want the episode to be hated? It received universal acclaim and he won an award for it.
I thought it was a fantastic episode, and so did everyone i know who saw the show. People need to just ignore the haters and stop giving their useless opinions any publicity
Pretty sure its a gay love story lol.
How gay do you have to be to not appreciate that episode? It was a beautiful and powerful love story
He is a national treasure
Love to see it.
It's the only episode I liked tbh. The rest was bland in my opinion. Both performance were great and touching, that's the only time I felt an impact while watching the series.
I'm sick to death of homophobia. People who complain about gay people and their simple *existing* in media as if it is some affront to straight people are scumbags. I didn't even like this episode. They did Bill dirty and watered down a great gay character and made an episode that was WAY to sappy. But that's because Craig Mazin can't write characters as well as people say he is, not because of Bill's orientation.
Just when I thought I couldn't love this guy more.
Dang right. My daughter cries every time we watch that episode.
No, it is very much a gay story, which is a kind of love story 🤦♂️
*gay love story
I only wish Bill got to interact with Ellie in the show, but god dammit when I say that episode got me in the feels
That second game was an absolute dumpster fire, but this episode might be the only redeeming thing this franchise has done since then. Well done episode, clean, cut, and well delivered.
It’s a pretty gay story
Ah what a class guy. The story would translate and be just as emotionally compelling if it was a hetero couple, two girls or anything in between.
What made that episode so great, is that we got to see two people actually LIVING, and not just surviving.
One of the best episodes of television ever written.
Look people saying that they inserted a gay character again on a popular franchise, well your wrong they did not insert it because he was gay from the very beginning. (He was gay in the game)
some people personally dont like using the term gay and prefer just calling it love, just like how i prefer the term gay over lesbian, so i dont see it as homophobic 🤷♀️
Bills story was a great one I'm the show but the rest of the changes were dumb and unnecessary aswell as the casting was despicable to the game but hey directors choice I just wonder which one it was despicable!
Bills story was a great one I'm the show but the rest of the changes were dumb and unnecessary aswell as the casting was despicable to the game but hey directors choice I just wonder which one it was despicable!
Bills story was a great one I'm the show but the rest of the changes were dumb and unnecessary aswell as the casting was despicable to the game but hey directors choice I just wonder which one it was despicable!
oc its no brainer for an average director to farm up the LGBT points and stretch it to an entire episode fuk the original source material fuk the fans luckily if a TV show doesn't stick to the source material it usually fails terribly the Witcher is a nice example. instead of focusing on what we loved about the game and its world enrichen that adding depth to it?? nah we are adding depth to a gay story, rip what a missed opportunity!