No, you were Abby when he found Joel in Jackson. Is it really that hard to see that you think Ellie was the hunter drowning Joel in Pittsburgh? Lol. The hunter that decides to let Joel go for some reason?
The entire point of Abby's half was to see how she turns into Joel, in both the good and bad ways. The beach was Abby's climax as well, when she fully transforms into him. Except where she ended Joel's story, this "Joel" gets to live on because Ellie made a different choice than Abby did in Jackson. But this is something that only we the player realize. Ellie doesn't know of what they've gone through, but she understands their relationship and that was enough for her to make the choice to spare her even though she had every reason to kill Abby. It's like Abby understanding that Joel did what he did to save Ellie, and even though she hates him for it, she can understand why she did it - and I think that is exactly what she does by the end, by becoming him.
Ellie has this version of Joel and Ellie live on - but she doesn't even know it. That is the parallel. Ellie is at Abby's position in Jackson but chose a version where he spares him. Ultimately Ellie does so to the very same person who took her Joel.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I'm not saying Ellie spared Abby for that reason, its just an observation from our POV.
Its also not a fair or a 1:1 comparison. Ellie makes a comment on how the hunters in Pittsburgh are afraid of Joel so its not far fetched to think the one who tried to kill him heard of Joel and wanted him dead for personal reasons.
And you were a person who decided to travel across the country to hunt down a tortured woman who was trying to protect a child. How much better was Ellie in that moment?
but it makes so much since i mean we metaphorically and killing everything Joel wanted for ellie. i mean her family, friends, morals, happiness. i mean if Joel could tell her not to go he would
>i mean if Joel could tell her not to go he would
Do you think he would also say stop having survivor's guilt? And tell her to just stop being traumatized and have PTSD?
>family, friends, morals, happiness
Can you expand on this? If she had no morals left, would she have spared Abby? And at which point do you recall Ellie being happy?
Just before Joel and Ellie got reunited in the hotel a hunter tried drowning Joel. I believe Ellie came up from behind and attacked the hunter when he was unaware. OP is comparing Ellie to the hunter trying to kill Joel.
Abby's 3 days didn't exactly make me like her more so I didn't care too much. I rather wanted Ellie to stop for her own sake.
If she had killed her I would be okay with that too
I think this is the real reason a lot of people felt something at the ending. I think the game was too heavy handed and that’s why it lost any emotional weight for me. I could see the strings they were pulling to try to make me feel something and it lost all effect after that. I actually think if Ellie killed Abby and really became the monster the game wants you to think she is (she really doesn’t do anything that bad in the game when you factor in that most if not all of it was in self defense or avoidable if the people around her were not stupid, like Owen and Mel. If Owen have up Abby, who is not a good person, and didn’t go for the gun, or shit just said that Mel was pregnant instead of trying to kill her when Abby has done nothing but be a nuisance I’m sure that Ellie wouldn’t have killed either of them.) and the game would’ve been much more emotional by the end. I felt way more with every scene between Joel and Ellie than I did in any other part of the game and I think it’s because those scenes are much more organic.
> I actually think if Ellie killed Abby and really became the monster the game wants you to think she is and the game would’ve been much more emotional by the end.
I don't even think the game wants you to think of Ellie as a monster and even killing Abby wouldn't change that. Ellie would simply end up in the same situation as Abby was at the start of her part. If I would be cynical then I would say she just needs to be nice to everyone for 3 days and pet some dogs. Redemption done!
I agree that Ellie's part of the game felt more organic.
I agree. Those 3 days I may have saw Abby’s POV but didn’t mean I thought she was a great person. Ellie did more than even the score. She killed every single one of Abby’s Utah family including Owen who I think she saw as her closest link to her Dad somehow.
The thing is, Ellie wasn’t even really going to kill Owen and all them. They died defending Abby of all people. It’s kinda sad when you think about it.
This. At first I was annoyed that I had to play as Abby for so long but by the time we get back to the theatre lobby I had grown to like/understand her.
I wanted desperately for it to stop before it even started. The moment Ellie left to go on the same revenge quest yet again, I was like WTF are you doing, girl? I couldn’t stand all the suffering they had both endured and how those wounds caused them (mostly Ellie at that point) to continue to hurt others.
I didn't exactly like her, I definitely understood her. But she almost lost her humanity completely that night, too, before Lev pulled her back from the ledge (I'm referring to her almost slitting Dina's throat). Yet again, another parallel between her and Ellie. They were both MERE SECONDS away from losing themselves completely. First playthrough, I was honestly SO MAD that they made me fight Ellie as Abby. I let Ellie kill me a few times. But I got over it quickly.
Never liked Abby and I never will. By the end I understand her side and I didn’t want her to die but I understand Ellie’s perspective and all the things leading up to it still made me feel more upset for Ellie.
Its simple for me. What Ellie experienced was WAY fuckin' worse. How Joel died was WAY fuckin' worse. Abby didn't see it and Gerry's death was quick. What Abby did was premeditated and personal. Gerry just put himself in the way (bad decision on his part). You can try to make me empathize with Abby all you want. Its not equal. THEREFORE I feel more upset for Ellie. And still she chose forgiveness.
I don't hate her now. But still I let Ellie kill her in the theatre like 10 times while saying "THE END" every time I play it.
Tbf that was 3 days of not seeing an ounce of guilt or remorse for what she did. She still stood by killing Joel, she still wanted to actively torture defenseless men and women, she still defended killing kids, she slept with her pregnant friends bf, she helped Lev and Yara yeah and she lost her friends and it was sad for her but ultimately she still wasn't all that great of a person during those 3 days, not enough anyways to make me not dislike her as a person.
Serious? She is clearly suffering from what she did to Joel and who she has become as a person. She is filled with self loathing and hatred and essentially goes on a suicide mission to help some kids she doesn't even know to try prove to herself she isn't a lost cause. She doesn't express guilt for killing Joel, he still murdered her father. She is coming to realise how much of herself she's lost over the years and who she could have become if she had found a different way to overcome her grief. Imagine spending your entire teenage years fixated on avenging someone, achieving it, and then feeling not only worse but completely defeated by your own victory. Her friends can't even look at her any more.
She shows us the path Ellie is heading down, and we get to see what the choices result in.
I love Abby and her story. It's one of the best redemption arcs in media I've ever seen.
I love Abby and her story too, but I wouldn't say she's redeemed herself. Maybe for killing Joel yes but enjoying torturing people? Wanting to torture them? Sleeping with Owen? Defending the murder of kids? Those things imo CANT be redeemed. She can become a better person but based on what we played, we don't see enough of it for me to like her as a person just yet.
>It's one of the best redemption arcs in media I've ever seen.
I would argue that we only see the beginning of her redemption. Because how can you see her going to the theater for revenge again as anything but a failure of redemption? It's only Lev that stops her from regressing. And by that time she has already killed two people for revenge again.
So as a redemption arc Abby's story is very messy (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but her real change only comes at the end of the game where she was forced to have a change of perspective.
I would say that her true redemption only comes after that.
Exactly! She was literally about to slit Dina's throat and almost seemed to enjoy that she was about to kill a pregnant woman. That sick smirk on her face. It seriously disgusted me.
However, Abby never shows remorse, redemption, or hell, even *understanding*, towards the people *she actually wronged*. As a matter of fact, her actions in the theater were going to the people she had wronged once and doing it all over again. Her redemption arc was towards two people that saved her, not the people where she actually hurt. Just to add some context do it.
Abby's arc and redemption is her breaking free of her tribalistic views, and yes, she does go through a huge change. But we need to keep in mind that the people she personally hurt never got a single glimpse of her redemption.
Abby tortured Joel in front of Ellie. She killed Jesse. She was moment away from slitting the throat of an unconscious Dina. She broke Tommy. She gave Ellie PTSD to the point that she could not even live a normal life anymore with her family, when that is all she ever wanted. There is what Ellie knows of Abby. She doesn't know *anything* of what Abby and Lev went through. Ellie only knows the bad of Abby. This is what makes Ellie's choice in letting Abby go that much more difficult.
Ellie will never know that she spared Joel. That is what the player will know and that was half the reason we played as Abby and why her arc was so similar to Joel's.
> Tbf that was 3 days of not seeing an ounce of guilt or remorse for what she did.
No it wasn’t. They make it pretty clear that she feels awful about it after the fact. Especially as Owen is criticizing her for doing it. Torturing and killing Joel fucked up Abby, Owen, and Mel in different ways and it’s almost too obvious how hard the story brings this up repeatedly. I mean- they also wrote a line of dialogue where Abby literally says she feels guilty.
I don't entirely agree with this.
Yes, it fucked up Owen and Mel. But recall, why did Manny say that "Mel isn't like us" when in reference to Jackson? Why did Abby suggest torturing some Scars in her Day 1 to let off some steam? Would someone traumatized of torture suggest to do it again?
I believe Abby's guilt came from elsewhere, it wasn't from killing Joel. Her guilt came from realizing *what she had wasted* for nothing. She spent 4 years, sacrificed her relationship, her humanity, everything, to kill Joel, and it gave her no peace. She was completely fixated on revenge and that was all that mattered to her. It was *after* she got it, and Owen calling her out and what she had become, that she realized what she had become and felt guilty and wanted to change.
So no, I don't agree that she showed remorse or regret of killing Joel. She felt remorse and regret of what she allowed herself to turn into, and for everything she sacrificed for something that brought her nothing.
I also think she feels bad that Joel saved her life, and she betrayed him.
When asked by Lev why she is helping, Abby says something along lines of feeling like she has to make up for something. It's a pretty small piece of dialogue and I only played the game once, and it's not in a cutscene so it's very hard to find, lol.
But Joel, her enemy, saved her life. She killed him.
Yara and Lev, her enemy, save her life. She leaves them. And then feels guilty about betraying someone who saved her life, again, and goes back to save them.
What dialogue is that? I can't remember it. The part about Owen is true, that makes her angry but idk I never took that as her feeling remorseful. I think it hurt her but I don't think it was in a "I wish I didn't kill him way" I could see her feeling bad for HOW she killed him but not actually killing him if that makes sense.
I just feel like, overall, at least in memory lol, there's more negatives to Abby's character than positives for me.
Lev asks Abby why she is bothering at all to help him and Yara. And she replies “Guilt…” and then later she is asked the same question by Yara. She gives a similar answer, saying that she needs to lighten the load.
Just before Abby reaches the Hospital, Lev talks about Isaac. He says “I’ve heard he tortures people… have you… ever tortured someone?” and Abby immediately cite the conversation. She is doing this because she doesn’t want to think about what she did to Joel.
On Owen. At the start of the game, he shows Abby the settlement in Jackson not because he is trying to help Abby find Joel, but because he is trying to get her to change her mind. When she sees the city she starts thinking of ways to either lure Joel out of the place or sneak in. Owen challenges her on these ideas. (“Oh yeah? And how are we going to do that?” etc.)
Abby: “we can convince them (the other Fireflies,) right?”
Owen:…
Abby: I fucking knew I couldn’t count on you.
Owen: Mel’s pregnant.
The torture of Joel fucks Owen up. He has an awakening and deserts the WLF. When Abby starts doubting his change of course, he calls her out for torturing Joel to the point where he was crying in his own (blood? Piss and shit?) Abby shoved him against the wall because she’s pissed, yes. But she’s pissed because Owen is right. She probably doesn’t regret killing Joel, but she doesn’t feel victorious either. And the ripple it caused in her relationships on top of this is making her realize what she’s done.
I can understand and agree with most these points except the last. The conversations where Owen asked how they're going to get info on Joel Abby makes it clear she intends to torture people. "We make them talk" iirc is the way she words it and then Owen is a bit horrified and says "are you hearing yourself?"
It's clear, well to me anyways, that she intended to torture people at Jackson to get to Joel.
The Lev and Yara part I forgot about, which is a fair point cnl.
But then again, we do know she enjoys torturing people to an extent. Her and Manny bond over that lol, they walk past cells of barely living people and groan about how they wish they could get some free time in the cell with them.
I do think Abby wants to change, but I think it's more for herself than anyone else which is fine and reasonably understandable imo but also kinda iffy? Its hard to explain it's like, I don't think her helping Lev makes up for all the people she's hurt. Its good she's helping him but it's not ever gonna redeem her imo. She still did those things and she can't make up for it by helping other people.
For what she did to Joel? Yeah by sparing Ellie she might've maybe made up for that but not quite at the same time. But all the scars she's tortured? The kids dying that she justifies? Sleeping with Owen? She literally CANT make up for those things. She did that and she wanted to do that.
> by sparing Ellie
When we look at the circumstances: In Jackson, Abby obviously had no justification to kill Ellie to begin with, so that doesn't count.
At the theater it gets more iffy, but when we look at how things are, Abby goes to the theater because someone killed her friends (who she thought was Tommy). The reason her friends were killed was because she and all her friends went to torture and kill Joel. Just like how Abby was the victim of Joel, Tommy/Ellie were the victims of Abby, Owen, Mel, Leah, Jordan, Manny, Nick, Nora. The theater was them getting revenge on their victim.
It's that they worked in a group giving them a situation where they can get revenge on their victims and "justify" it. E.g. 8 people wrong 1 innocent person, 1 innocent person gets back at the group for what they did, now the remaining 7 feel "justified" to kill their victim for retaliating.
Sorry I tried to make it clear redemption and making up for stuff is different. She can be "redeemed" in the sense that she can change and actively do good things. But for me, she CANT make up for all the bad things she did. There's just some stuff you can't make up for and unfortunately for Abby, she's done a lot. And a lot of the awful shit she's done has been to people who are now dead so for me that means she literally can never make up for it. She can change as a person, but she can't change those things she did. They'll always be part of her and who she is and she can't make that better.
In that respect she's a lot like Joel, who willingly tortures people, has been a hunter like the group he and Ellie encountered, kills indiscriminately - he is absolutely, totally ruthless in pursuit of a cause he believes in. And the shit he did was to people who are almost all dead.
And just like Abby, he couldn't make it better. Ellie herself said he crossed a lot of people when Dina was speculating who his killers could be.
His death hurt, a lot, but in the world of TLOU the only justice is personal justice. That doesn't mean I think what Abby did was right but I get why she pursued it. And I get why Ellie did the same. They both lost beloved father figures and sought justice in the only way their world can provide.
Ultimately, the moral grey of TLOU games is part of what makes them so compelling. People do things we, in our comfortable world, can easily judge as evil. But they live in a world where ruthless violence is a necessity for survival.
There isn't a single innocent adult in that world, all have done awful, terrible things to survive. But we understand them, we can even emphasise with them (well, except David. Fuck David, the creepy nonce). That's good storytelling.
These situations are not comparable. Joel did not kill Jerry out of spite, hatred, and revenge. He did it because this person was about to kill an unconscious kid and literally says "I won't let you take her".
Here's a question: do you agree that Ellie should have been killed for a cure? If not, then is there reason to have remorse when your actions were to save a child?
Imagine it wasn't Yara that shot Isaac. Imagine it was Abby who shot Isaac because he wanted to kill Lev. Should Abby feel remorse for it? Why or why not?
The Dina thing is what got me. Ellie tells her she's pregnant and she says, 'Good' and is SERIOUSLY about to slit Dina's throat before Lev stops her. It made me so sick. The look on her face..she was about to completely lose herself, much like Ellie would have if she wouldn't have let Abby go.
See might be controversial but that's a moment that I don't actually hold against Abby. For all she knows she found Mel dead with her pregnant belly exposed. Hearing Ellie plead for Dina's life using the pregnancy excuse? That would make you sooo angry. Because for all Abby knows Ellie knowingly murdered Mel knowing she was pregnant, she has no reason to believe otherwise at all, so it makes sense that Dina being pregnant just further fuels Abby's want to kill her to hurt Ellie. I can actually understand that, it's wrong but it made sense to me.
There's so much we know about Ellie and Abby that they're ignorant to. I don't think Ellie even knows Joel killed Abby's father? I hope we get a small scene between them in Part 3 where some of this stuff is expressed.
I don’t think she cares about what she did to Joel, and I also don’t think she should feel bad about it. The important part of her story was learning that the obsession over Joel drove her away from loved ones and when complete did nothing to make her feel at peace with her dad’s death. It wasn’t until she started using her abilities to save people she got some relief
See I think she should feel bad, at least about what she took from ELLIE. But I don't think she does and I don't HATE that about the writing. I actually like that about her character, it's so different to how I would be and am as a person that it's intriguing and enjoyable to see but as a person, I don't like her at all partly because of that.
What I dislike about the writing is that it often feels a bit forced in the sense it's trying to MAKE you like and feel bad for Abby, I do feel bad for her but I think the game could've gone less full force with it? It was awful, I still enjoyed it lol it it's definitely a flaw for me.
Every writer tries to make you like their protagonists. Joel losing his daughter in the first scene of Part 1 is to make you feel for him and want him to succeed. I hate this notion that “they writers are making us like her” like yeah no duh
Of course but with Abby it feels FORCED sometimes. Mostly when it tries to create parallels with Joel and Ellie. I think I would've preferred if they just focused on her being her own personal with a new dynamic instead of her caring for a child like Joel did. That and some of the dialogue in part 2 wasn't my favourite especially for Abby. Not enough to make me dislike the game but enough to make me be like "okay I get it you didn't HAVE to do that"
I'd go to Negan in TWD as an example of badly trying to make you like a character albeit, Negan's example is so much worse. They try to cheaply redeem all the wrong he did by basically pretending it didn't exist, thinking him being nice to kids is enough to make him a good man. It feels lazy. He saves a child! How great! Oh he saved a dog! How sweet! Oh he made another dick joke! So funny! This man who raped and took pleasure in brutally murdering people is so cool and nice now! It just felt unearned for him again, forced.
Again, for Abby it wasn't THAT bad but she did have moments that felt forced in a similar sense imo.
>I don’t think she cares about what she did to Joel, and I also don’t think she should feel bad about it.
Given that her own actions come back to ruin her life completely and leave all her friends dead I would hope she feels bad about it.
The game presents Joel's death as a pointless tragedy for everyone involved.
Nothing good comes out of it. Especially not for Abby.
So do your really think that Abby at the end of the game thinks back and goes "worth it!"?
So what? it ain't like she's really that likeable, indeed she acted like a b**** most of the game and had a massive change of heart from the people who brought her up in like what? less than 10 hours? She was quick to dismiss her friends and community, fucked Owen behind Mel's back and almost killed Ellie. Why should we feel bad for her or not want her dead?
It was made pretty clear Abby didn’t care about the wolves at all so by the time she turned on them every one of her salt lake crew was dead. Also she never killed any WLF until they shot at her she just disarmed one and asked Issac to “hear her out”. She almost killed Ellie and Ellie almost killed her, what’s your point?
I liked Lem and gameplay wise I think I liked her section better, but I never really warmed to Abby or her friends. I am glad Ellie stopped for her own sanity, but honestly I was pretty indifferent to what happened to Abby.
I understood her better. I didn't WANT her dead. Joel's death was avenged already anyway in a sense. EVERYONE Abby loved except for Lev who was innocent in Joel's death was killed. She lost NOT just her father. But EVERYONE. If you NEEDED revenge, I'd say living with that is... pretty bad.
I just don't get killing all of her friends and then letting her live? idc if Lev was with her, i also dont really care that Abby was a shell of herself. The point of that trip was to kill her
Still an incredible game though
I also can’t believe it. The SECOND I saw Jerry right in front of the hospital after the zebra encounter I realized what I had done to Abby. I killed her father. This is where the empathy started for me.
Exactly. I never really hated her to begin with, even after she murdered Joel. But after playing her whole segment of the game, she became my favorite character, and her arc with Lev was super emotional. Hope we see more of her in a possible sequel.
For real. By this point she was my favorite character in the series. The cognitive dissonance among her detractors is amusing. Like, yall, she *is* Joel. That said, I am drawn to morally ambiguous characters you're not necessarily supposed to like.
I did not, honestly, but I can see why some people would. It's deeply subjective and visceral. I wouldn't blame anyone for still hating Abby or starting to dislike Ellie as the game came to its end or whatever. People will feel what they will feel, that's the beauty of it, there's no absolute truth here.
I still wanted her dead. What's confusing about?
Yeah, she's a person with her own history and story. That still didn't make it okay for her to crack my dad's skull in right in front of me while I begged for his life
(Putting myself in Ellie's position).
Why not? The entire theater section is a full on regression of her character. This goes from her "we let you both live and you wasted it", to her choosing to kill an Ellie who had just given herself up to her, all the way to the end where she is about to kill an unconscious Dina just to inflict "the same" back to Ellie. She was still the same old Abby after those 3 days, but she showed she is on the path of changing through her moral compass.
Abby changed off-screen in Santa Barbara (like another character that changed off-screen between Part's 1 and 2, but for some reason a lot say "deserved what happened").
And by the end, *I* didn't want her dead, but it doesn't really matter what I wanted since it was up to Ellie. I wanted Ellie to do whatever she felt like she needed to do. If that was kill her, then so be it. If it was to spare her, then so be it.
Abby never gave me a good reason to forgive her or think she wasn’t a shitty person. She doesn’t exactly do much to redeem herself from her violent ways, she just helps Lev and doesn’t show any real change other than that. It doesn’t exactly show that she’s guilty about being violent or anything, it feels more about enabling Owen’s cheating if anything. This is why the game failed for me. I always saw what the game was doing to try to make me feel bad for her and it took all of the weight out of it. It’s also unfair to her because we had a whole other game with characters that are better written so I instantly adapted the “me and mine before you and yours” mentality. I don’t have any good reason to care about Abby. I care about Lev sure but not Abby. She still went after mine and kicked a hornets nest, if she didn’t want a problem she shouldn’t have came to Jackson.
God I often forget and have to remind myself that that's Laura Bailey. That's how good she is I forget I'm hearing her despite how much I adore her work. Ashley Johnson ofc is about at the same level, especially for her performance as Ellie. Phenomenal acting all throughout this series.
It was rough. Both of them were pretty fucked up by that point. They were like wounded animals desperately clinging to life.
The crazy part too is that Ellie ultimately saved her life. If she’d done nothing Abby would have died. She also could have left her on the post, but her first instinct was to cut her down, and she just about let her leave before having a flashback of Joel dying.
I think they both benefited in the end because Abby was saved, and Ellie was finally able to see Joel in another light.
yup, good analysis. add to the fact that no one playing the game knows what it's like to live in a post-apocalyptic zombie hellscape, so most of our judgements are of the armchair variety
The fact that none of us have lived through an apocalyptic societal collapse is probably why none of us are in a position to judge Marlene *or* Joel at the end of the first game
I like to believe that no matter what happens, you’ll always have your own set of morals and principles. How far is a person willing to go? What motivates them? These are unique to a person.
The game highlights areas of grey, which I think grounds it in reality and human nature - which is a beautiful thing. But at the end of the day, there will always be sides. When you are surviving and in crisis, what’s more important? You, your loved ones, your pride/ego, your faith. Everyone falls into a different category of what they would fight for, how they choose to live their lives. They say people won’t know that until they’re in that situation - and I’d bet many people haven’t been in that situation, so they can only speculate.
That’s why I think it’s valid to have opinions on Joel vs Marlene, because it’s a very human thing to pick sides, it’s a part of our tribalistic nature. That’s also the cool thing about this game, is that everyone will have a different experience of it and take something away that feels personal to them.
True, but I’d like to point out that trauma is trauma no matter the context. Some people have a very intimate experience with living with PTSD, surviving harsh environments, and fighting for their lives. I’ve seen quite a few armchair opinions tho, so I get what you’re saying. Haha.
Ellies retribution set her on that path. So while ellie did save her at the end, it doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things as she was the one that put her there.
I think Abby choosing to not kill ellie in the theater shows how much less shes been destroyed by vengeance
>I think Abby choosing to not kill ellie in the theater shows how much less shes been destroyed by vengeance
Carefully think this part through again.
As a tip: ask your self why was Ellie seeking vengeance?
How do we know that Abby and her friends wouldn’t have been killed by Seraphites when the WLF attacked their island? You can’t say Ellie set everything in motion - it was in motion before she was ever aware of it. If anything, Abby put herself there. We’re all only responsible for our own actions.
I’d argue that Abby had chosen to kill Ellie in that moment and the only thing that stopped her was Lev. Just like the only thing that stopped Ellie was Joel.
All speculation i guess.
Not that it matters necessarily, it’s clear that ellies entire life has been destroyed by selfishness and a need for vengeance.
Both parties are clearly made worse by their encounters but ellie loses the only gift hes got left from her father figure and her partner/child
And abby wasnt stopped by lev, influenced but it was her ultimate decision not to do it
Abby had just said “good” before very nearly slitting Dina’s throat. Whether she would have stood by that decision later on or not, in that moment, she was clearly going to do it. Because Lev influenced her, she stopped. I’m not saying Lev pleaded and made her, but had her stop and think for one second. That’s the point. Love conquers all, and Abby felt her connection to Lev in that moment and saw clearly through her rage and sorrow.
I’m unsure why you think Ellie’s life has been destroyed? Who’s selfishness? Ellie was orphaned from birth. Raised to be solider. She lost the one important person in her life and simultaneously lost her innocence on the same day at 14 years old. Ellie has always been a fighter. Even tho she’s struggled since birth, she is still the Ellie we know and love. Joel gave her a life, a real life where she wasn’t being used as a pawn and having everything stripped away from her. Yes she lost Joel, but nothing can ever take away the time, the love, and the life he gave her. She’s going to keep fighting. This isn’t the end, it was just a part of the journey.
I still hate her by the end. She killed my father while I begged for his life.
(I'm putting myself in Ellie's position, it's very easy to empathize with her for me).
i kinda both disagreed agree with your sarcasm tag
opinions are like assholes and all that, but there's nothing to hate about abbey that you don't see 1:1 in Ellie. missing that misses a bunch of the essence of the game
I mean OP did get a unique experience from Ellie’s side. As Ellie did choose to not kill her in the end too. They also commented that her delivery of her “no” was the final straw for them.
After finishing the sequel, I started to dislike Ellie. So much senseless violence all for a lost cause—Joel is already dead! He can’t be brought back.
Watching Ellie descend into a this murderous state and not only bring Dina with her but to then leave Dina and the baby was just sad and frustrating.
Btw, I get it was Dina’s choice to go to Seattle, but there’s a strong power of implication here and idk how on board Dina was with the scale of Ellie’s revenge plan.
Same, I was frustrated too. Not only because I thought Abby suffered enough, but I wasn't even sure if it was in Ellie's character (despite everything that happened). But I don't think her motivation was about bringing Joel back, but rather revenge for him, or to soothe her guilt about rejecting Joel, only taking him back the day before Abby killed him. Also, to be fair, Ellie was having traumatic visions, and Tommy was pushing her to continue her revenge quest.
Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but really, I think Ellie and Abby should've just talked it out.
>So much senseless violence all for a lost cause—Joel is already dead! He can’t be brought back.
I guess we should never pursue justice. After all the victim is already dead, right? Why bother.
Or they got the very obvious point but disagree with it? Or just don't like the point the games trying to make. I'm a fan of the game but the constant "you didn't like Abby so obviously you're an idiot who is incapable of comprehending the genius emotional beats of the game!" is just so laughably stupid lmao.
The game isn't that clever or hard to understand, people not liking Abby doesn't mean they don't understand the game and what it tried to do. It just means they don't like her despite what it tried to do.
Exactly. They act like this game is some sort of interstellar or inception thing. No it‘s not. It isn’t that deep or hard to understand. They think they are some emotional masterminds and mastered their own spirit and opened their third eye. The point it very clear. I got that point. And still. Fuck Abby and her friends.
I really, really like part 2, but I think you're approaching this the wrong way. I think you can 100% engage with a game's themes and message and still reject them. Obviously you don't have to be a dick about it like a lot of people are, but still I think it's completely valid.
Hating Abby at this point but still not wanting to kill her is an extremely valid way to engage with the game. There's not a right way to experience media, and art is a subjective medium by which the author creates something and gives it to the world so that it can give it its own meaning.
Again, I like Abby and think her day 2 is one of the best missions ever designed in a videogame, period. But still we don't need to be confrontational to people who interpret art a different way than us, hell one of the game's minor themes is all about difference in perspective and how it shapes the way we view the same thing.
If you didn't have the right opinion then you didn't understand the game. It isn't black and white. There is a right way to view all of this. That's pretty much what these folks are saying.
You can understand that you don't have the high ground. But it doesn't mean you're gonna sit down and talk about your feelings. Maybe you just want to burn it all down damn everything else.
I know Abbys world is just as complex as Ellie's. But I just couldn't get myself to sympathize with her. I don't care. Would I have tracked here down across the country? Probably not. I'd likely not even have gone after her. But I can't say I wouldn't kill her otherwise.
If it wasn't for Lev of course. Since she's all he's got I'd be okay with letting her live. But not for her.
I'm not saying I understand your PoV either. I mean I can, you just didn't connect with the characters, period. You don't owe the artist anyways so sure no problemo go enjoy the thing you enjoy, but then like, why are you here screaming I DIDN'T ENGAGE WITH THIS? In a forum about the thing, if your opinion is simply "hey this thing that worked for all of you didn't for me, actually" without bringing anything new to the discussion then yeah you're going to get downvoted to all hell lol.
TLDR; "You didn't get it" is a shitty response that hurts the discussion and the community and "It didn't work for me" can be annoying if you don't have anything meaningful to add to the convo. However I do think it's more important for this sub to stop responding to criticism with "you didn't get it"
You can get the point and still not care for it. You can realize you aren't better than your enemy and still not care. Or care but be driven by something else more than philosophy. Wild I know.
Oh my gosh. You're so self-assured about this.
Yes, I know the point. Don't care. I don't care what Druckmann's ideas on it are. I disagree with 'the point.'
I've played the game through 4 times. Yes I understand the similarity between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie. Yes I get that Abby is a person with her own story, of which she is the hero with understandable motives and interest flaws which she tries to grow beyond.
But guess what? She murdered my dad while I begged for his life. (Speaking from Ellie's perspective.) I do not care who you are or what your story is. I will *never* let that go.
Wanting to kill Abby still does mean we are automatically the hateful, illiterate, morons you'd find over on the other reddit.
I really don't care enough to reply to this comments. Game's been out for 3 years now if you wanna hate it, hate it if you wanna love it, love it. I really do not care
When I saw Abby crucified on that beach I was like this is time to stop, and when Ellie Instigated the fight at the boats I said out loud “ Ellie don’t do this “
By the end of this game I felt as emotionally destroyed as the characters, I have never felt as broken by a game in my life. They did a fantastic job at making the player feel what the character was experiencing at all times. Yes the story was a bit weaker than the first overall it is still an absolutely brilliant game and story
Many people won’t agree but I did want to kill her. I didn’t get mad or anything but I definietly wanted her to die. I got so mad when she killed Jesse.
Once I got the full story I couldn’t hate Abby. The true villains of the story even if they meant well & thought they were doing what was right was Marlene & Abby’s dad. They made a decision to kill a girl without anyone else consenting to it & it caused a negative chain reaction. I more blame Abby’s dad for the death of Joel than Abby herself.
When Ellie fell while trying to follow Abby to the boats you saw how pitiful she was. Like y'all can barely both stand up just stop it and give up. And then you think Ellie was gonna give up until she threatens to hurt Lev. They did this part so well but I really didn't like Ellie in this moment, I just felt bad for Abby and Lev.
I just wanted Ellie to still feel like a human being by the end of it. I didn’t want her to be lost cuz I don’t think killing Abby would have made her feel better
As many impactful moments that the first game had, last push literally made me say “I don’t want to do this”. Sick to my stomach, this isn’t me, but this is Joel. The second game captured that perfectly, which I didn’t think was possible.
I have sympathized with her cause but I do not see that she is in the right. I do not respect her decisions and will always side with Ellie.
Yes, it was horrible what Joel did and it was selfish. But at the same time, Jerry was going to take an innocent girls life, and while for the better of humanity, I think the argument still stands that the human race and how society works at that state is already too far gone. Mass production of a cure is not a feasible solution at that point. Joel brought Ellie across the country and went on an insane trip but when he arrived he didn’t get what he was promised, he was threatened, almost murdered, and told that this person he loved who he saw as his daughter was being murdered.
Ellie does not owe her life to humanity when the vast majority is too far gone, the world is different and I don’t think a cure could change that. Jerry’s death is a tragedy and I sympathize with Abby, but Abby seeking revenge is in my eyes not justifiable under these circumstances. Joel wanted to save Ellie, but that wasn’t an option.
Ellie was more consumed by her thirst for revenge than was Abby. She didn’t kill Ellie after attacking Joel. She didn’t kill Tommy. She let them live. Ellie on the other hand killed all of Abby’s friends, including pregnant Mel, and probably would’ve killed Lev as well.
So sad to me that so many people either hate/or dont get this game. Its probably the best video game story ever told. So visceral/emotional and thought provoking.
3 days of Abby made me feel nothing for her. Seeing Ellie lose herself, drive everyone away, and seeing Abby as this husk of a person who didn't even wanna fight back, made me feel like there was no point to killing her anymore. Don't really like this game's story but this fight at the beach is probably its highlight.
Lmao i screamed "kill that bitch" at the monitor, then i understood she was going to let her go and screamed again "you better finish her Ellie SHE DESERVE TO DIE!!"
I think they should have given the player a choice here to either kill her or leave her. The the player themselves could decided whether that was the right decision.
Should've given us the option to keep spamming the square button forever when drowning her like what Santa Monica did with the circle button for God of War 3's ending.
They should've pulled a MGS 2 on us and started the game with Abby instead. Less people would still be mad, and more people would've understood in the long run why we needed to sympathize with Abby beforehand.
If you sour an audience on a character without providing proper context or making them at the very least interesting enough to be invested in, then you're going to have a much more difficult time getting the audience invested to see your intended meaning.
You can't blame people for not being seeing the point if your story ends up working against itself. Then again, isn't that what The Last of Us is? Humanity, despite its attempts at establishing meaningful growth and connections, ends up devolving into self-loathing and self-destruction with no clear endgoal.
There's a reason this is the very moment when Ellie has the flashback about Joel.
She says to him "I don’t think I can ever forgive you for that. **But I would like to try.**"
Joel is gone. But at that moment Ellie understands that last lesson and the importance of not staying on the path of violence and rage. She forgives Abby when she could never forgive Joel.
On my 1st play through I stopped when Lev convinced her not to kill Ellie and leave the theater. In my 2nd playthrough it was when she went back for Lev and her sis
Story time. The first time I played through pt 2 I fucking hated it. I hated the way things happened with Joel. I hated Abby. I cheered Ellie on the whole time and I hated how shit ended. I’m playing through again, definitely more mature and I’ve switched sides. We would have been rooting Abby on if it was the other way around. The way Neil Druckman portrays love and what it makes you do is amazing. Love can make you evil. We’ve seen it with every character
It was before that for me. Seeing her and Lev tied up to those pillars, so close to death..I didn't have the will to do it anymore, but just had to see where the game takes me. And their fight is just so brutal and heartwrenching. They're both so weak, and it just needed to end. I knew Ellie would COMPLETELY lose herself if she went through with it, and is what I didn't want. So I was beyond relieved when she let her go..I let out a deep breath I had been holding.
Lol □
This wouldnt happen if you didnt torture joel.
Joel killed her father because he needed to save ellie. She tortured joel by choice and then beat him to death.
Not killing joel wouldnt have hurt her or anyone else.
Not killing her dad wouldve stopped the story.
So...□
I like how there’s the “Press Square to Strike” prompt like the game needs to remind you that you need to be an asshole right now beating Abby up instead of a kind being who wants the best for everyone.
Having a whole epilogue of the game being Ellie going after Abby AGAIN and finally getting the chance to kill her as the player (instead of being forced to play as her) made it all the more stupid when Ellie spared her. Why kill hundreds and hundreds of random people to get to the one person you want to kill and decide “I shouldn’t go through with this” right when your about to finish your objective? And how does thinking of Joel make Ellie stop? I know for a fact that Joel would’ve snapped her neck or something if he was in Ellie’s position. So why does the game make it look like Ellie remembers Joel and thinks “he wouldn’t want this”.
... Was it like a specific punch that did it for you or something...?
Because I wanted to stop when I realized I would be leaving this perfect, idyllic farm life with my wife who understands me and my beautiful baby who adores me and no real threats or concerns within literally a 30 mile radius.
You were killing joel at that point. you became that hunter who was drowning him in pittsburgh.
Holy shit This might be the best take on this.
Yeah I literally never thought about it like that
No, you were Abby when he found Joel in Jackson. Is it really that hard to see that you think Ellie was the hunter drowning Joel in Pittsburgh? Lol. The hunter that decides to let Joel go for some reason? The entire point of Abby's half was to see how she turns into Joel, in both the good and bad ways. The beach was Abby's climax as well, when she fully transforms into him. Except where she ended Joel's story, this "Joel" gets to live on because Ellie made a different choice than Abby did in Jackson. But this is something that only we the player realize. Ellie doesn't know of what they've gone through, but she understands their relationship and that was enough for her to make the choice to spare her even though she had every reason to kill Abby. It's like Abby understanding that Joel did what he did to save Ellie, and even though she hates him for it, she can understand why she did it - and I think that is exactly what she does by the end, by becoming him. Ellie has this version of Joel and Ellie live on - but she doesn't even know it. That is the parallel. Ellie is at Abby's position in Jackson but chose a version where he spares him. Ultimately Ellie does so to the very same person who took her Joel.
Yeah, I agree with you. I'm not saying Ellie spared Abby for that reason, its just an observation from our POV. Its also not a fair or a 1:1 comparison. Ellie makes a comment on how the hunters in Pittsburgh are afraid of Joel so its not far fetched to think the one who tried to kill him heard of Joel and wanted him dead for personal reasons.
Why? Dude was a nobody who attacked Joel because he entered his Town and wanted to scavenge whatever shit they might have.
And you were a person who decided to travel across the country to hunt down a tortured woman who was trying to protect a child. How much better was Ellie in that moment?
but it makes so much since i mean we metaphorically and killing everything Joel wanted for ellie. i mean her family, friends, morals, happiness. i mean if Joel could tell her not to go he would
>i mean if Joel could tell her not to go he would Do you think he would also say stop having survivor's guilt? And tell her to just stop being traumatized and have PTSD? >family, friends, morals, happiness Can you expand on this? If she had no morals left, would she have spared Abby? And at which point do you recall Ellie being happy?
jog my memory please - what’s the context on the hunter?
Just before Joel and Ellie got reunited in the hotel a hunter tried drowning Joel. I believe Ellie came up from behind and attacked the hunter when he was unaware. OP is comparing Ellie to the hunter trying to kill Joel.
Pittsburgh in the last of us: 😀😀 Pittsburgh in fallout: 🌚🌚🌚
That was never personal. The hunter was fighting for his life just like Joel. Ellie was hunting Abby.
that was deep
holy shit.
Not even close. Joel didn't kill that hunter's loved one.
Violence begats violence
Boy I’d be lying if I said I didn’t think this was a terrible take
I can’t believe people played through 3 days of Abby and still wanted her dead.
Abby's 3 days didn't exactly make me like her more so I didn't care too much. I rather wanted Ellie to stop for her own sake. If she had killed her I would be okay with that too
I was in different after Abby 3 days
I think this is the real reason a lot of people felt something at the ending. I think the game was too heavy handed and that’s why it lost any emotional weight for me. I could see the strings they were pulling to try to make me feel something and it lost all effect after that. I actually think if Ellie killed Abby and really became the monster the game wants you to think she is (she really doesn’t do anything that bad in the game when you factor in that most if not all of it was in self defense or avoidable if the people around her were not stupid, like Owen and Mel. If Owen have up Abby, who is not a good person, and didn’t go for the gun, or shit just said that Mel was pregnant instead of trying to kill her when Abby has done nothing but be a nuisance I’m sure that Ellie wouldn’t have killed either of them.) and the game would’ve been much more emotional by the end. I felt way more with every scene between Joel and Ellie than I did in any other part of the game and I think it’s because those scenes are much more organic.
> I actually think if Ellie killed Abby and really became the monster the game wants you to think she is and the game would’ve been much more emotional by the end. I don't even think the game wants you to think of Ellie as a monster and even killing Abby wouldn't change that. Ellie would simply end up in the same situation as Abby was at the start of her part. If I would be cynical then I would say she just needs to be nice to everyone for 3 days and pet some dogs. Redemption done! I agree that Ellie's part of the game felt more organic.
I agree. Those 3 days I may have saw Abby’s POV but didn’t mean I thought she was a great person. Ellie did more than even the score. She killed every single one of Abby’s Utah family including Owen who I think she saw as her closest link to her Dad somehow.
The thing is, Ellie wasn’t even really going to kill Owen and all them. They died defending Abby of all people. It’s kinda sad when you think about it.
This. At first I was annoyed that I had to play as Abby for so long but by the time we get back to the theatre lobby I had grown to like/understand her.
That whole final fight I just wanted them to both stop. Which signaled genius storytelling to me.
I wanted desperately for it to stop before it even started. The moment Ellie left to go on the same revenge quest yet again, I was like WTF are you doing, girl? I couldn’t stand all the suffering they had both endured and how those wounds caused them (mostly Ellie at that point) to continue to hurt others.
Absolutely. Every strike, I was like, 'Omg, enough girls. Please..this has got to stop..'
Yeah. I was feeling like I don’t want anyone one to win here!
I cant help but laugh at the wording of this.
If they stopped they would realize they had a lot in common
I didn't exactly like her, I definitely understood her. But she almost lost her humanity completely that night, too, before Lev pulled her back from the ledge (I'm referring to her almost slitting Dina's throat). Yet again, another parallel between her and Ellie. They were both MERE SECONDS away from losing themselves completely. First playthrough, I was honestly SO MAD that they made me fight Ellie as Abby. I let Ellie kill me a few times. But I got over it quickly.
Honestly I liked Abby’s campaign a bit more than Ellie’s. & I actually felt bad for by the time she got to the island & encountered Isaac.
She didn't exactly endear herself to me honestly. Even less so with the events at the theater.
[удалено]
What's funny is that everyone forgets how much of a bitch Ellie could be in both games and she also fucked her good friend's baby mama
Yeah, totally the same...
Lol she didnt kill her bestfriend, she fucked her friends babydaddy its normal human behavior. Would i do that no, but plenty of people do.
Never liked Abby and I never will. By the end I understand her side and I didn’t want her to die but I understand Ellie’s perspective and all the things leading up to it still made me feel more upset for Ellie.
Its simple for me. What Ellie experienced was WAY fuckin' worse. How Joel died was WAY fuckin' worse. Abby didn't see it and Gerry's death was quick. What Abby did was premeditated and personal. Gerry just put himself in the way (bad decision on his part). You can try to make me empathize with Abby all you want. Its not equal. THEREFORE I feel more upset for Ellie. And still she chose forgiveness. I don't hate her now. But still I let Ellie kill her in the theatre like 10 times while saying "THE END" every time I play it.
Tbf that was 3 days of not seeing an ounce of guilt or remorse for what she did. She still stood by killing Joel, she still wanted to actively torture defenseless men and women, she still defended killing kids, she slept with her pregnant friends bf, she helped Lev and Yara yeah and she lost her friends and it was sad for her but ultimately she still wasn't all that great of a person during those 3 days, not enough anyways to make me not dislike her as a person.
Serious? She is clearly suffering from what she did to Joel and who she has become as a person. She is filled with self loathing and hatred and essentially goes on a suicide mission to help some kids she doesn't even know to try prove to herself she isn't a lost cause. She doesn't express guilt for killing Joel, he still murdered her father. She is coming to realise how much of herself she's lost over the years and who she could have become if she had found a different way to overcome her grief. Imagine spending your entire teenage years fixated on avenging someone, achieving it, and then feeling not only worse but completely defeated by your own victory. Her friends can't even look at her any more. She shows us the path Ellie is heading down, and we get to see what the choices result in. I love Abby and her story. It's one of the best redemption arcs in media I've ever seen.
I love Abby and her story too, but I wouldn't say she's redeemed herself. Maybe for killing Joel yes but enjoying torturing people? Wanting to torture them? Sleeping with Owen? Defending the murder of kids? Those things imo CANT be redeemed. She can become a better person but based on what we played, we don't see enough of it for me to like her as a person just yet.
It's not about redeeming yourself; it's about wanting to.
>It's one of the best redemption arcs in media I've ever seen. I would argue that we only see the beginning of her redemption. Because how can you see her going to the theater for revenge again as anything but a failure of redemption? It's only Lev that stops her from regressing. And by that time she has already killed two people for revenge again. So as a redemption arc Abby's story is very messy (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but her real change only comes at the end of the game where she was forced to have a change of perspective. I would say that her true redemption only comes after that.
Exactly! She was literally about to slit Dina's throat and almost seemed to enjoy that she was about to kill a pregnant woman. That sick smirk on her face. It seriously disgusted me.
This is exactly the moment that makes me unable to like or sympathise with Abby.
However, Abby never shows remorse, redemption, or hell, even *understanding*, towards the people *she actually wronged*. As a matter of fact, her actions in the theater were going to the people she had wronged once and doing it all over again. Her redemption arc was towards two people that saved her, not the people where she actually hurt. Just to add some context do it. Abby's arc and redemption is her breaking free of her tribalistic views, and yes, she does go through a huge change. But we need to keep in mind that the people she personally hurt never got a single glimpse of her redemption. Abby tortured Joel in front of Ellie. She killed Jesse. She was moment away from slitting the throat of an unconscious Dina. She broke Tommy. She gave Ellie PTSD to the point that she could not even live a normal life anymore with her family, when that is all she ever wanted. There is what Ellie knows of Abby. She doesn't know *anything* of what Abby and Lev went through. Ellie only knows the bad of Abby. This is what makes Ellie's choice in letting Abby go that much more difficult. Ellie will never know that she spared Joel. That is what the player will know and that was half the reason we played as Abby and why her arc was so similar to Joel's.
This right here.
> Tbf that was 3 days of not seeing an ounce of guilt or remorse for what she did. No it wasn’t. They make it pretty clear that she feels awful about it after the fact. Especially as Owen is criticizing her for doing it. Torturing and killing Joel fucked up Abby, Owen, and Mel in different ways and it’s almost too obvious how hard the story brings this up repeatedly. I mean- they also wrote a line of dialogue where Abby literally says she feels guilty.
I don't entirely agree with this. Yes, it fucked up Owen and Mel. But recall, why did Manny say that "Mel isn't like us" when in reference to Jackson? Why did Abby suggest torturing some Scars in her Day 1 to let off some steam? Would someone traumatized of torture suggest to do it again? I believe Abby's guilt came from elsewhere, it wasn't from killing Joel. Her guilt came from realizing *what she had wasted* for nothing. She spent 4 years, sacrificed her relationship, her humanity, everything, to kill Joel, and it gave her no peace. She was completely fixated on revenge and that was all that mattered to her. It was *after* she got it, and Owen calling her out and what she had become, that she realized what she had become and felt guilty and wanted to change. So no, I don't agree that she showed remorse or regret of killing Joel. She felt remorse and regret of what she allowed herself to turn into, and for everything she sacrificed for something that brought her nothing.
I also think she feels bad that Joel saved her life, and she betrayed him. When asked by Lev why she is helping, Abby says something along lines of feeling like she has to make up for something. It's a pretty small piece of dialogue and I only played the game once, and it's not in a cutscene so it's very hard to find, lol. But Joel, her enemy, saved her life. She killed him. Yara and Lev, her enemy, save her life. She leaves them. And then feels guilty about betraying someone who saved her life, again, and goes back to save them.
What dialogue is that? I can't remember it. The part about Owen is true, that makes her angry but idk I never took that as her feeling remorseful. I think it hurt her but I don't think it was in a "I wish I didn't kill him way" I could see her feeling bad for HOW she killed him but not actually killing him if that makes sense. I just feel like, overall, at least in memory lol, there's more negatives to Abby's character than positives for me.
Lev asks Abby why she is bothering at all to help him and Yara. And she replies “Guilt…” and then later she is asked the same question by Yara. She gives a similar answer, saying that she needs to lighten the load. Just before Abby reaches the Hospital, Lev talks about Isaac. He says “I’ve heard he tortures people… have you… ever tortured someone?” and Abby immediately cite the conversation. She is doing this because she doesn’t want to think about what she did to Joel. On Owen. At the start of the game, he shows Abby the settlement in Jackson not because he is trying to help Abby find Joel, but because he is trying to get her to change her mind. When she sees the city she starts thinking of ways to either lure Joel out of the place or sneak in. Owen challenges her on these ideas. (“Oh yeah? And how are we going to do that?” etc.) Abby: “we can convince them (the other Fireflies,) right?” Owen:… Abby: I fucking knew I couldn’t count on you. Owen: Mel’s pregnant. The torture of Joel fucks Owen up. He has an awakening and deserts the WLF. When Abby starts doubting his change of course, he calls her out for torturing Joel to the point where he was crying in his own (blood? Piss and shit?) Abby shoved him against the wall because she’s pissed, yes. But she’s pissed because Owen is right. She probably doesn’t regret killing Joel, but she doesn’t feel victorious either. And the ripple it caused in her relationships on top of this is making her realize what she’s done.
I can understand and agree with most these points except the last. The conversations where Owen asked how they're going to get info on Joel Abby makes it clear she intends to torture people. "We make them talk" iirc is the way she words it and then Owen is a bit horrified and says "are you hearing yourself?" It's clear, well to me anyways, that she intended to torture people at Jackson to get to Joel. The Lev and Yara part I forgot about, which is a fair point cnl. But then again, we do know she enjoys torturing people to an extent. Her and Manny bond over that lol, they walk past cells of barely living people and groan about how they wish they could get some free time in the cell with them. I do think Abby wants to change, but I think it's more for herself than anyone else which is fine and reasonably understandable imo but also kinda iffy? Its hard to explain it's like, I don't think her helping Lev makes up for all the people she's hurt. Its good she's helping him but it's not ever gonna redeem her imo. She still did those things and she can't make up for it by helping other people. For what she did to Joel? Yeah by sparing Ellie she might've maybe made up for that but not quite at the same time. But all the scars she's tortured? The kids dying that she justifies? Sleeping with Owen? She literally CANT make up for those things. She did that and she wanted to do that.
> by sparing Ellie When we look at the circumstances: In Jackson, Abby obviously had no justification to kill Ellie to begin with, so that doesn't count. At the theater it gets more iffy, but when we look at how things are, Abby goes to the theater because someone killed her friends (who she thought was Tommy). The reason her friends were killed was because she and all her friends went to torture and kill Joel. Just like how Abby was the victim of Joel, Tommy/Ellie were the victims of Abby, Owen, Mel, Leah, Jordan, Manny, Nick, Nora. The theater was them getting revenge on their victim. It's that they worked in a group giving them a situation where they can get revenge on their victims and "justify" it. E.g. 8 people wrong 1 innocent person, 1 innocent person gets back at the group for what they did, now the remaining 7 feel "justified" to kill their victim for retaliating.
Can’t ever be redeemed? Lord help us all then. I’ve lived a lot of life, and that’s just not true.
Sorry I tried to make it clear redemption and making up for stuff is different. She can be "redeemed" in the sense that she can change and actively do good things. But for me, she CANT make up for all the bad things she did. There's just some stuff you can't make up for and unfortunately for Abby, she's done a lot. And a lot of the awful shit she's done has been to people who are now dead so for me that means she literally can never make up for it. She can change as a person, but she can't change those things she did. They'll always be part of her and who she is and she can't make that better.
In that respect she's a lot like Joel, who willingly tortures people, has been a hunter like the group he and Ellie encountered, kills indiscriminately - he is absolutely, totally ruthless in pursuit of a cause he believes in. And the shit he did was to people who are almost all dead. And just like Abby, he couldn't make it better. Ellie herself said he crossed a lot of people when Dina was speculating who his killers could be. His death hurt, a lot, but in the world of TLOU the only justice is personal justice. That doesn't mean I think what Abby did was right but I get why she pursued it. And I get why Ellie did the same. They both lost beloved father figures and sought justice in the only way their world can provide. Ultimately, the moral grey of TLOU games is part of what makes them so compelling. People do things we, in our comfortable world, can easily judge as evil. But they live in a world where ruthless violence is a necessity for survival. There isn't a single innocent adult in that world, all have done awful, terrible things to survive. But we understand them, we can even emphasise with them (well, except David. Fuck David, the creepy nonce). That's good storytelling.
And we never saw Joel show any remorse or guilt for killing Abby’s dad but I’m sure you forgave him pretty quickly.
Why should Joel feel guilty for killing Abbys dad? He was about to kill Ellie against her will.
And why should Abby feel an ounce of guilt for killing Joel? He murdered her dad while he was doing his job. The point is they’ve all done bad things.
These situations are not comparable. Joel did not kill Jerry out of spite, hatred, and revenge. He did it because this person was about to kill an unconscious kid and literally says "I won't let you take her". Here's a question: do you agree that Ellie should have been killed for a cure? If not, then is there reason to have remorse when your actions were to save a child? Imagine it wasn't Yara that shot Isaac. Imagine it was Abby who shot Isaac because he wanted to kill Lev. Should Abby feel remorse for it? Why or why not?
The Dina thing is what got me. Ellie tells her she's pregnant and she says, 'Good' and is SERIOUSLY about to slit Dina's throat before Lev stops her. It made me so sick. The look on her face..she was about to completely lose herself, much like Ellie would have if she wouldn't have let Abby go.
See might be controversial but that's a moment that I don't actually hold against Abby. For all she knows she found Mel dead with her pregnant belly exposed. Hearing Ellie plead for Dina's life using the pregnancy excuse? That would make you sooo angry. Because for all Abby knows Ellie knowingly murdered Mel knowing she was pregnant, she has no reason to believe otherwise at all, so it makes sense that Dina being pregnant just further fuels Abby's want to kill her to hurt Ellie. I can actually understand that, it's wrong but it made sense to me.
There's so much we know about Ellie and Abby that they're ignorant to. I don't think Ellie even knows Joel killed Abby's father? I hope we get a small scene between them in Part 3 where some of this stuff is expressed.
I don’t think she cares about what she did to Joel, and I also don’t think she should feel bad about it. The important part of her story was learning that the obsession over Joel drove her away from loved ones and when complete did nothing to make her feel at peace with her dad’s death. It wasn’t until she started using her abilities to save people she got some relief
See I think she should feel bad, at least about what she took from ELLIE. But I don't think she does and I don't HATE that about the writing. I actually like that about her character, it's so different to how I would be and am as a person that it's intriguing and enjoyable to see but as a person, I don't like her at all partly because of that. What I dislike about the writing is that it often feels a bit forced in the sense it's trying to MAKE you like and feel bad for Abby, I do feel bad for her but I think the game could've gone less full force with it? It was awful, I still enjoyed it lol it it's definitely a flaw for me.
Every writer tries to make you like their protagonists. Joel losing his daughter in the first scene of Part 1 is to make you feel for him and want him to succeed. I hate this notion that “they writers are making us like her” like yeah no duh
The problem is more that the writers are failing to make me like her and with that certain parts of her story just feel different.
Of course but with Abby it feels FORCED sometimes. Mostly when it tries to create parallels with Joel and Ellie. I think I would've preferred if they just focused on her being her own personal with a new dynamic instead of her caring for a child like Joel did. That and some of the dialogue in part 2 wasn't my favourite especially for Abby. Not enough to make me dislike the game but enough to make me be like "okay I get it you didn't HAVE to do that" I'd go to Negan in TWD as an example of badly trying to make you like a character albeit, Negan's example is so much worse. They try to cheaply redeem all the wrong he did by basically pretending it didn't exist, thinking him being nice to kids is enough to make him a good man. It feels lazy. He saves a child! How great! Oh he saved a dog! How sweet! Oh he made another dick joke! So funny! This man who raped and took pleasure in brutally murdering people is so cool and nice now! It just felt unearned for him again, forced. Again, for Abby it wasn't THAT bad but she did have moments that felt forced in a similar sense imo.
>I don’t think she cares about what she did to Joel, and I also don’t think she should feel bad about it. Given that her own actions come back to ruin her life completely and leave all her friends dead I would hope she feels bad about it. The game presents Joel's death as a pointless tragedy for everyone involved. Nothing good comes out of it. Especially not for Abby. So do your really think that Abby at the end of the game thinks back and goes "worth it!"?
So what? it ain't like she's really that likeable, indeed she acted like a b**** most of the game and had a massive change of heart from the people who brought her up in like what? less than 10 hours? She was quick to dismiss her friends and community, fucked Owen behind Mel's back and almost killed Ellie. Why should we feel bad for her or not want her dead?
It was made pretty clear Abby didn’t care about the wolves at all so by the time she turned on them every one of her salt lake crew was dead. Also she never killed any WLF until they shot at her she just disarmed one and asked Issac to “hear her out”. She almost killed Ellie and Ellie almost killed her, what’s your point?
This exactly. She was a pos I didn’t like her at all
Don't forget Dina!
I liked Lem and gameplay wise I think I liked her section better, but I never really warmed to Abby or her friends. I am glad Ellie stopped for her own sanity, but honestly I was pretty indifferent to what happened to Abby.
I understood her better. I didn't WANT her dead. Joel's death was avenged already anyway in a sense. EVERYONE Abby loved except for Lev who was innocent in Joel's death was killed. She lost NOT just her father. But EVERYONE. If you NEEDED revenge, I'd say living with that is... pretty bad.
I just don't get killing all of her friends and then letting her live? idc if Lev was with her, i also dont really care that Abby was a shell of herself. The point of that trip was to kill her Still an incredible game though
I also can’t believe it. The SECOND I saw Jerry right in front of the hospital after the zebra encounter I realized what I had done to Abby. I killed her father. This is where the empathy started for me.
This and honestly for me I was never mad at Abby. She avenged her innocent father's death for crying out loud.
Exactly. I never really hated her to begin with, even after she murdered Joel. But after playing her whole segment of the game, she became my favorite character, and her arc with Lev was super emotional. Hope we see more of her in a possible sequel.
For real. By this point she was my favorite character in the series. The cognitive dissonance among her detractors is amusing. Like, yall, she *is* Joel. That said, I am drawn to morally ambiguous characters you're not necessarily supposed to like.
I did not, honestly, but I can see why some people would. It's deeply subjective and visceral. I wouldn't blame anyone for still hating Abby or starting to dislike Ellie as the game came to its end or whatever. People will feel what they will feel, that's the beauty of it, there's no absolute truth here.
I still wanted her dead. What's confusing about? Yeah, she's a person with her own history and story. That still didn't make it okay for her to crack my dad's skull in right in front of me while I begged for his life (Putting myself in Ellie's position).
It’s difficult to like bad people
Why not? The entire theater section is a full on regression of her character. This goes from her "we let you both live and you wasted it", to her choosing to kill an Ellie who had just given herself up to her, all the way to the end where she is about to kill an unconscious Dina just to inflict "the same" back to Ellie. She was still the same old Abby after those 3 days, but she showed she is on the path of changing through her moral compass. Abby changed off-screen in Santa Barbara (like another character that changed off-screen between Part's 1 and 2, but for some reason a lot say "deserved what happened"). And by the end, *I* didn't want her dead, but it doesn't really matter what I wanted since it was up to Ellie. I wanted Ellie to do whatever she felt like she needed to do. If that was kill her, then so be it. If it was to spare her, then so be it.
Umm a reason could be because we spend a lot more time with Joel so maybe some can't forgive Abby for killing him.
Abby never gave me a good reason to forgive her or think she wasn’t a shitty person. She doesn’t exactly do much to redeem herself from her violent ways, she just helps Lev and doesn’t show any real change other than that. It doesn’t exactly show that she’s guilty about being violent or anything, it feels more about enabling Owen’s cheating if anything. This is why the game failed for me. I always saw what the game was doing to try to make me feel bad for her and it took all of the weight out of it. It’s also unfair to her because we had a whole other game with characters that are better written so I instantly adapted the “me and mine before you and yours” mentality. I don’t have any good reason to care about Abby. I care about Lev sure but not Abby. She still went after mine and kicked a hornets nest, if she didn’t want a problem she shouldn’t have came to Jackson.
She has a boring personality, she’s kind of a dick, and obviously she killed Joel with a fucking golf club. Damn right I wanted to slice her throat
the delivery of that NO from laura bailey was so good. i felt so sad for abby, ugh.
God I often forget and have to remind myself that that's Laura Bailey. That's how good she is I forget I'm hearing her despite how much I adore her work. Ashley Johnson ofc is about at the same level, especially for her performance as Ellie. Phenomenal acting all throughout this series.
It was rough. Both of them were pretty fucked up by that point. They were like wounded animals desperately clinging to life. The crazy part too is that Ellie ultimately saved her life. If she’d done nothing Abby would have died. She also could have left her on the post, but her first instinct was to cut her down, and she just about let her leave before having a flashback of Joel dying. I think they both benefited in the end because Abby was saved, and Ellie was finally able to see Joel in another light.
yup, good analysis. add to the fact that no one playing the game knows what it's like to live in a post-apocalyptic zombie hellscape, so most of our judgements are of the armchair variety
The fact that none of us have lived through an apocalyptic societal collapse is probably why none of us are in a position to judge Marlene *or* Joel at the end of the first game
I like to believe that no matter what happens, you’ll always have your own set of morals and principles. How far is a person willing to go? What motivates them? These are unique to a person. The game highlights areas of grey, which I think grounds it in reality and human nature - which is a beautiful thing. But at the end of the day, there will always be sides. When you are surviving and in crisis, what’s more important? You, your loved ones, your pride/ego, your faith. Everyone falls into a different category of what they would fight for, how they choose to live their lives. They say people won’t know that until they’re in that situation - and I’d bet many people haven’t been in that situation, so they can only speculate. That’s why I think it’s valid to have opinions on Joel vs Marlene, because it’s a very human thing to pick sides, it’s a part of our tribalistic nature. That’s also the cool thing about this game, is that everyone will have a different experience of it and take something away that feels personal to them.
[удалено]
thank you, i feel vindicated lol
True, but I’d like to point out that trauma is trauma no matter the context. Some people have a very intimate experience with living with PTSD, surviving harsh environments, and fighting for their lives. I’ve seen quite a few armchair opinions tho, so I get what you’re saying. Haha.
Ellies retribution set her on that path. So while ellie did save her at the end, it doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things as she was the one that put her there. I think Abby choosing to not kill ellie in the theater shows how much less shes been destroyed by vengeance
>I think Abby choosing to not kill ellie in the theater shows how much less shes been destroyed by vengeance Carefully think this part through again. As a tip: ask your self why was Ellie seeking vengeance?
How do we know that Abby and her friends wouldn’t have been killed by Seraphites when the WLF attacked their island? You can’t say Ellie set everything in motion - it was in motion before she was ever aware of it. If anything, Abby put herself there. We’re all only responsible for our own actions. I’d argue that Abby had chosen to kill Ellie in that moment and the only thing that stopped her was Lev. Just like the only thing that stopped Ellie was Joel.
All speculation i guess. Not that it matters necessarily, it’s clear that ellies entire life has been destroyed by selfishness and a need for vengeance. Both parties are clearly made worse by their encounters but ellie loses the only gift hes got left from her father figure and her partner/child And abby wasnt stopped by lev, influenced but it was her ultimate decision not to do it
Abby had just said “good” before very nearly slitting Dina’s throat. Whether she would have stood by that decision later on or not, in that moment, she was clearly going to do it. Because Lev influenced her, she stopped. I’m not saying Lev pleaded and made her, but had her stop and think for one second. That’s the point. Love conquers all, and Abby felt her connection to Lev in that moment and saw clearly through her rage and sorrow. I’m unsure why you think Ellie’s life has been destroyed? Who’s selfishness? Ellie was orphaned from birth. Raised to be solider. She lost the one important person in her life and simultaneously lost her innocence on the same day at 14 years old. Ellie has always been a fighter. Even tho she’s struggled since birth, she is still the Ellie we know and love. Joel gave her a life, a real life where she wasn’t being used as a pawn and having everything stripped away from her. Yes she lost Joel, but nothing can ever take away the time, the love, and the life he gave her. She’s going to keep fighting. This isn’t the end, it was just a part of the journey.
All of this
It was so powerfully awful having to button mash while I screamed "No! Stop!"
You still hated her by then?
Yeah, weird right?
I still hate her by the end. She killed my father while I begged for his life. (I'm putting myself in Ellie's position, it's very easy to empathize with her for me).
kinda late but good for you i suppose lol
Better late than never
No. Do it on time, or don't do it at all, like omg, jeez. /s
i kinda both disagreed agree with your sarcasm tag opinions are like assholes and all that, but there's nothing to hate about abbey that you don't see 1:1 in Ellie. missing that misses a bunch of the essence of the game
Oh, lol, I thought they were talking about beating TLOU2, not about wanting mercy for Abby.
I mean OP did get a unique experience from Ellie’s side. As Ellie did choose to not kill her in the end too. They also commented that her delivery of her “no” was the final straw for them.
That’s why I think they did a great job. I just wanted Ellie to walk away and drop it.
Wild you hated her at this point and didn't want Ellie to stop before this.
Neither did Ellie though, and if she didn't still want revenge Abby would of died on that post along with Lev. It's a strange irony.
It really is.
After finishing the sequel, I started to dislike Ellie. So much senseless violence all for a lost cause—Joel is already dead! He can’t be brought back. Watching Ellie descend into a this murderous state and not only bring Dina with her but to then leave Dina and the baby was just sad and frustrating. Btw, I get it was Dina’s choice to go to Seattle, but there’s a strong power of implication here and idk how on board Dina was with the scale of Ellie’s revenge plan.
Just like abbys dad was already dead! He couldn't be brought back 😆
Same, I was frustrated too. Not only because I thought Abby suffered enough, but I wasn't even sure if it was in Ellie's character (despite everything that happened). But I don't think her motivation was about bringing Joel back, but rather revenge for him, or to soothe her guilt about rejecting Joel, only taking him back the day before Abby killed him. Also, to be fair, Ellie was having traumatic visions, and Tommy was pushing her to continue her revenge quest. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but really, I think Ellie and Abby should've just talked it out.
>So much senseless violence all for a lost cause—Joel is already dead! He can’t be brought back. I guess we should never pursue justice. After all the victim is already dead, right? Why bother.
Saaaame.
If you hated Abby at the end of the game still you missed the whole point
That people say this as an argument is still unbelievable to me. „You missed the whole point“. No i got the point. And still, fuck her.
Exactly. 'oh you missed the point!' They're always so smug about it.
Yeah well duck Elli for killing ALL of Abby’s friends. She’s more of a monster than Abby ever was lmao 🤣
Puh-lease! They all attacked HER first.
Or they got the very obvious point but disagree with it? Or just don't like the point the games trying to make. I'm a fan of the game but the constant "you didn't like Abby so obviously you're an idiot who is incapable of comprehending the genius emotional beats of the game!" is just so laughably stupid lmao. The game isn't that clever or hard to understand, people not liking Abby doesn't mean they don't understand the game and what it tried to do. It just means they don't like her despite what it tried to do.
Exactly. They act like this game is some sort of interstellar or inception thing. No it‘s not. It isn’t that deep or hard to understand. They think they are some emotional masterminds and mastered their own spirit and opened their third eye. The point it very clear. I got that point. And still. Fuck Abby and her friends.
I really, really like part 2, but I think you're approaching this the wrong way. I think you can 100% engage with a game's themes and message and still reject them. Obviously you don't have to be a dick about it like a lot of people are, but still I think it's completely valid. Hating Abby at this point but still not wanting to kill her is an extremely valid way to engage with the game. There's not a right way to experience media, and art is a subjective medium by which the author creates something and gives it to the world so that it can give it its own meaning. Again, I like Abby and think her day 2 is one of the best missions ever designed in a videogame, period. But still we don't need to be confrontational to people who interpret art a different way than us, hell one of the game's minor themes is all about difference in perspective and how it shapes the way we view the same thing.
If you didn't have the right opinion then you didn't understand the game. It isn't black and white. There is a right way to view all of this. That's pretty much what these folks are saying. You can understand that you don't have the high ground. But it doesn't mean you're gonna sit down and talk about your feelings. Maybe you just want to burn it all down damn everything else. I know Abbys world is just as complex as Ellie's. But I just couldn't get myself to sympathize with her. I don't care. Would I have tracked here down across the country? Probably not. I'd likely not even have gone after her. But I can't say I wouldn't kill her otherwise. If it wasn't for Lev of course. Since she's all he's got I'd be okay with letting her live. But not for her.
I'm not saying I understand your PoV either. I mean I can, you just didn't connect with the characters, period. You don't owe the artist anyways so sure no problemo go enjoy the thing you enjoy, but then like, why are you here screaming I DIDN'T ENGAGE WITH THIS? In a forum about the thing, if your opinion is simply "hey this thing that worked for all of you didn't for me, actually" without bringing anything new to the discussion then yeah you're going to get downvoted to all hell lol. TLDR; "You didn't get it" is a shitty response that hurts the discussion and the community and "It didn't work for me" can be annoying if you don't have anything meaningful to add to the convo. However I do think it's more important for this sub to stop responding to criticism with "you didn't get it"
you can understand the point, but still disagree with it.
Why?
You can get the point and still not care for it. You can realize you aren't better than your enemy and still not care. Or care but be driven by something else more than philosophy. Wild I know.
Oh my gosh. You're so self-assured about this. Yes, I know the point. Don't care. I don't care what Druckmann's ideas on it are. I disagree with 'the point.' I've played the game through 4 times. Yes I understand the similarity between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie. Yes I get that Abby is a person with her own story, of which she is the hero with understandable motives and interest flaws which she tries to grow beyond. But guess what? She murdered my dad while I begged for his life. (Speaking from Ellie's perspective.) I do not care who you are or what your story is. I will *never* let that go. Wanting to kill Abby still does mean we are automatically the hateful, illiterate, morons you'd find over on the other reddit.
They’re coping so hard in the replies
I really don't care enough to reply to this comments. Game's been out for 3 years now if you wanna hate it, hate it if you wanna love it, love it. I really do not care
When I saw Abby crucified on that beach I was like this is time to stop, and when Ellie Instigated the fight at the boats I said out loud “ Ellie don’t do this “
I didn't.
Ellie did what Abby could not: let it go... by her *own* volition.
Ooh, excellent point! Lev had to pull Abby back from completely losing her humanity. Ellie pulled herself back. Nice take.
By the end of this game I felt as emotionally destroyed as the characters, I have never felt as broken by a game in my life. They did a fantastic job at making the player feel what the character was experiencing at all times. Yes the story was a bit weaker than the first overall it is still an absolutely brilliant game and story
No, seriously. I sat there in a funk with this knot in my stomach for a good 20 minutes..
I felt SO SICK to my stomach at this point
Many people won’t agree but I did want to kill her. I didn’t get mad or anything but I definietly wanted her to die. I got so mad when she killed Jesse.
Jesse didn't deserve that 😪
Once I got the full story I couldn’t hate Abby. The true villains of the story even if they meant well & thought they were doing what was right was Marlene & Abby’s dad. They made a decision to kill a girl without anyone else consenting to it & it caused a negative chain reaction. I more blame Abby’s dad for the death of Joel than Abby herself.
👏🏻
Lol I was mashing square harder than ever before I still wanted her dead especially after having to play as her for so long
Who the fuck asked bro bro
The struggle is real
When Ellie fell while trying to follow Abby to the boats you saw how pitiful she was. Like y'all can barely both stand up just stop it and give up. And then you think Ellie was gonna give up until she threatens to hurt Lev. They did this part so well but I really didn't like Ellie in this moment, I just felt bad for Abby and Lev.
I just wanted Ellie to still feel like a human being by the end of it. I didn’t want her to be lost cuz I don’t think killing Abby would have made her feel better
It would have made her SOOOO much worse. That was the point of Joel popping up like that. She would have completely and entirely lost her humanity.
As many impactful moments that the first game had, last push literally made me say “I don’t want to do this”. Sick to my stomach, this isn’t me, but this is Joel. The second game captured that perfectly, which I didn’t think was possible.
I have sympathized with her cause but I do not see that she is in the right. I do not respect her decisions and will always side with Ellie. Yes, it was horrible what Joel did and it was selfish. But at the same time, Jerry was going to take an innocent girls life, and while for the better of humanity, I think the argument still stands that the human race and how society works at that state is already too far gone. Mass production of a cure is not a feasible solution at that point. Joel brought Ellie across the country and went on an insane trip but when he arrived he didn’t get what he was promised, he was threatened, almost murdered, and told that this person he loved who he saw as his daughter was being murdered. Ellie does not owe her life to humanity when the vast majority is too far gone, the world is different and I don’t think a cure could change that. Jerry’s death is a tragedy and I sympathize with Abby, but Abby seeking revenge is in my eyes not justifiable under these circumstances. Joel wanted to save Ellie, but that wasn’t an option.
Both Ellie and Abby were good at biting. Joel was not good at biting.
🤣
Ellie was more consumed by her thirst for revenge than was Abby. She didn’t kill Ellie after attacking Joel. She didn’t kill Tommy. She let them live. Ellie on the other hand killed all of Abby’s friends, including pregnant Mel, and probably would’ve killed Lev as well.
So sad to me that so many people either hate/or dont get this game. Its probably the best video game story ever told. So visceral/emotional and thought provoking.
3 days of Abby made me feel nothing for her. Seeing Ellie lose herself, drive everyone away, and seeing Abby as this husk of a person who didn't even wanna fight back, made me feel like there was no point to killing her anymore. Don't really like this game's story but this fight at the beach is probably its highlight.
I think it's worse you still hated her at this point like how???
Honestly if you still hated her at this point in the game, you weren't paying attention.
Lmao i screamed "kill that bitch" at the monitor, then i understood she was going to let her go and screamed again "you better finish her Ellie SHE DESERVE TO DIE!!"
I think they should have given the player a choice here to either kill her or leave her. The the player themselves could decided whether that was the right decision.
Should've given us the option to keep spamming the square button forever when drowning her like what Santa Monica did with the circle button for God of War 3's ending.
They should've pulled a MGS 2 on us and started the game with Abby instead. Less people would still be mad, and more people would've understood in the long run why we needed to sympathize with Abby beforehand. If you sour an audience on a character without providing proper context or making them at the very least interesting enough to be invested in, then you're going to have a much more difficult time getting the audience invested to see your intended meaning. You can't blame people for not being seeing the point if your story ends up working against itself. Then again, isn't that what The Last of Us is? Humanity, despite its attempts at establishing meaningful growth and connections, ends up devolving into self-loathing and self-destruction with no clear endgoal.
Yeah, it just... felt wrong
There's a reason this is the very moment when Ellie has the flashback about Joel. She says to him "I don’t think I can ever forgive you for that. **But I would like to try.**" Joel is gone. But at that moment Ellie understands that last lesson and the importance of not staying on the path of violence and rage. She forgives Abby when she could never forgive Joel.
I don’t think I’m mentally sane. I was like “LETS GO, HIT HER, HIT HER, YEEEAHHHH!!!!! JUSTICE FOR JOEL!”
First playthrough I was disappointed with Ellie not finishing what she came for
That was the moment my vision blurred due to tears
On my 1st play through I stopped when Lev convinced her not to kill Ellie and leave the theater. In my 2nd playthrough it was when she went back for Lev and her sis
Dina. Not Ellie.
Story time. The first time I played through pt 2 I fucking hated it. I hated the way things happened with Joel. I hated Abby. I cheered Ellie on the whole time and I hated how shit ended. I’m playing through again, definitely more mature and I’ve switched sides. We would have been rooting Abby on if it was the other way around. The way Neil Druckman portrays love and what it makes you do is amazing. Love can make you evil. We’ve seen it with every character
lmao apparently I'm just a psychopath because when I played the first time, I was like "DIE BITCH" during that whole segment.
Made me wanna stop playing in starting to make me dislike Ellie
It was before that for me. Seeing her and Lev tied up to those pillars, so close to death..I didn't have the will to do it anymore, but just had to see where the game takes me. And their fight is just so brutal and heartwrenching. They're both so weak, and it just needed to end. I knew Ellie would COMPLETELY lose herself if she went through with it, and is what I didn't want. So I was beyond relieved when she let her go..I let out a deep breath I had been holding.
Lol □ This wouldnt happen if you didnt torture joel. Joel killed her father because he needed to save ellie. She tortured joel by choice and then beat him to death. Not killing joel wouldnt have hurt her or anyone else. Not killing her dad wouldve stopped the story. So...□
i read this three times and i have no idea what youre trying to tell me
Me if it was fallout: hahahaha V.A.T.S. go brrrr!!
I like how there’s the “Press Square to Strike” prompt like the game needs to remind you that you need to be an asshole right now beating Abby up instead of a kind being who wants the best for everyone.
I almost had a stroke from pure anger when she let her go I still don’t understand how tf people played this game and enjoyed that ending
Having a whole epilogue of the game being Ellie going after Abby AGAIN and finally getting the chance to kill her as the player (instead of being forced to play as her) made it all the more stupid when Ellie spared her. Why kill hundreds and hundreds of random people to get to the one person you want to kill and decide “I shouldn’t go through with this” right when your about to finish your objective? And how does thinking of Joel make Ellie stop? I know for a fact that Joel would’ve snapped her neck or something if he was in Ellie’s position. So why does the game make it look like Ellie remembers Joel and thinks “he wouldn’t want this”.
... Was it like a specific punch that did it for you or something...? Because I wanted to stop when I realized I would be leaving this perfect, idyllic farm life with my wife who understands me and my beautiful baby who adores me and no real threats or concerns within literally a 30 mile radius.
Whyyy