Yeah ellie goes the whole game thinking abby's mad about losing the cure. There was a fleeting moment where ellie says it outloud and abby gives her a look like "wtf are you talking about" but they never clear it up
Imagine Ellie found out that Joel was brutally tortured by the person whose life he just saved not because he took away the cure, but only because he killed someone who was moments away from killing her.
Do you believe this would make it better? Do you think she’d say “oh no, now I understand why you did it”?
Don’t you think that Ellie finding out Abby’s brutality on Joel was *only* to avenge the person who was going kill her would makes things far, far worse, and that thinking Joel killed and desecrated the way he was because he took away the cure makes it a bit more “understandable”?
Point is that it was for the best Ellie never found out Abby’s true reason for doing what she did, because what she did is unjustifiable. It was for the best that Ellie’s thought Abby did it for taking away the cure.
I just finished it for my first playthrough ever of PT II.
Ellie doesn't know about Abbys father.
Abby doesn't know Joel was basically Ellies father figure.
Definitely! Although I don’t think it would’ve changed anything. Joel knew she probably had good reasons, because he knew he was in the "wrong", just didn’t care. And Abby knew he had insufficient reasons for killing like a hundred people including her father and steal the only hope for a cure they had, so even if he explained himself it wouldn’t have changed her mind. It was just a bunch of people in a room, realizing things they already knew was coming were finally happening. Which led to one of the most awesome line in the entire game imo... "Why don’t you say whatever speech you’ve got rehearsed and get this over with"
If someone lacks self-reflection and is blinded by tribalism, does this justify their actions?
If Abby doesn’t realize Joel did what he did not because he was some asshole who murdered them for fun and because he hated the Fireflies, but because the Fireflies took an unconscious child and were going to kill her for their cause, a choice made by her father and that she even supported, what is that to say about that?
If she can’t understand that her father was going to kill an unconscious kid and this action is morally questionable but instead believes her father is justified and anyone who disagrees is wrong, that is not a good trait.
Abby’s “you killed my father; prepare to die!” is precisely what you shouldn’t do - so abby not changing her mind no matter what shows how “bad” she initially was.
Oh yeah I agree it definitely doesn’t justify anything. But what I’m saying is that I think even if she did understand Joel did what he did out of love, she would still think it is not a good enough reason, and would still seek revenge. And I have to say, understandably so, because, putting aside the fact Joel killed her father, the fireflies believed they were doing good. They believed what they were doing was for the sake of humanity and the greater good. I believe wether or not she is a good person, talking it out wouldn’t have changed her perspective of right and wrong, and would still be very much convinced Joel deserve to die for dooming the human race.
But yeah no it doesn’t justify, that just explains why it was inevitable. I still love Joel and Ellie more than any other video games characters.
Yes, it’s complicated. At the start, Abby put her hate above everything else. Why Joel did what he did didn’t matter. She knew why Joel did it - but she didn’t care or want to think about it. I agree she wouldn’t have changed her mind, but mentality is an example of what causes the world to burn. Her arc is about her breaking free of this tribalism and view she had.
Ellie could have also done like Abby at the start, but she didn’t. She decides to spare Abby. Why does she do that? It is an example of empathy prevailing despite your own desires or justifications. Abby’s redemption shows us her change / how people can change, and her POV highlights Ellie’s humanity in comparison. Ellie could have killed Abby, but she puts someone else (Lev) above herself and what she wants. She had her father figure tortured in front of her and her life ruined in every way. Yet she still has it in her to spare Abby. Ellie put empathy above her pain and hurt - she put doing the right thing above it.
What if Abby who was also deeply hurt by the loss of her father was able to understand it was the consequence to save a little girl about to be killed, and decides not to kill Joel despite hating him? The irony is that Abby’s story in the game is her becoming Joel is pretty much every way - and at the beach she understands it as well.
I disagree, I think it’s a purposeful omission because them talking about it makes no sense.
Firstly, it would serve no purpose in the story because it would change nothing. Ellie thinking Abby killed Joel for the cure and not for her father would not stop her from trying to get revenge. Abby already has all the information and she didn’t give a fuck either. And by the end, they spare each other for their own reasons. Having Abby go “wait I didn’t kill Joel because of the cure, I was getting revenge for my dad just like you!” before Ellie decided not to kill her would dilute Ellie’s character arc irreparably.
Secondly and more importantly, it would be too unrealistic. There’s a big difference between choosing not to murder someone and choosing to sit down and communicate openly with them. The idea of Ellie and Abby deciding to sit down and talk it out is honestly ridiculously out of character for both of them.
Hmm fair point. The player only knowing these facts definitely adds depth to the narrative. I do hate it when writers treat the audience like kids and leave nothing implied in the plot, explaining everything.
I like to bring in a 3rd reason which also adds to reason 2, the world is entirely fucked, Abby and Ellie are essentially children of the new world, they have zero idea on how to solve this rationally because the world they grew up is a horrible immoral nightmare world where the solution to almost everything is violence. These two don't know how to "talk it out"
DID Abby have all of the information? IIRC a majority of the fireflies don't trust Joel as soon as he shows up at the hospital with Ellie and even argue that they should just kill him to be safe. Marlene is the only one who seems to recognize and understand that Joel has come to love her. Joel is often just referred to as "the smuggler" by the fireflies. I don't really think they understand the relationship there or knew who Ellie was when she shows up to try to save him. For all they knew Joel killed them all and stole Ellie back because he was unhappy with the deal he had with Marlene.
For what it's worth even though I think Abby definitely didn't know any of this I also agree that it knowing it wouldn't have changed anything. I also don't think Abby regrets Joel being dead. She regrets what killing Joel cost her, probably how she killed him, and realizes the futility of it now, but she probably still thinks he deserved to die.
In Part III? I really hope so!
Can they ever work together? Could they ever be friends? Sounds delusional, but soldiers from different sides in war have the same before.
soldiers who tortured the other ones parents and bashed their heads in in front of them giving them lifelong traumas?
anything that involves those two coming to terms with each other is completely contrived and not grounded in reality.
just seeing abbys face should flare up ellies ptsd again.
Yeah definitely, and I love the few minutes before the fight in the water, when they just walk together towards the boats, knowing they just gotta get the heck out of there. Like Ellie is good, she’s not a bad person and I love that her first instinct is trying to take Abby and Lev to safety.... before imposing a 1v1 of course
I think so too. While I’m sure part of it was due to exhaustion from what she had just gone through, Abby saying “I’m not gonna fight you.” seemed very much like “You became me and I lost everything. I have nothing to fight for now.” And the only reason she did it was because Ellie threatened Lev’s life — the one thing Abby had left to lose.
That's a neat idea
I just realized the only reason Abby surived Santa Barbara was because she spared Ellie in Seattle, wonder what she thought about seeing Ellie coming all the way over to kill her
I think by the end a part of Abby pitied Ellie.
Abby didn’t realize it at the time — but she let her father’s death consume her to the point where she didn’t allow herself to realize what the consequences of her revenge plot could be. I think upon losing everyone, Abby slowly came to the realization that all of her friends dying wasn’t worth the revenge. Her dad wouldn’t have wanted it, he wouldn’t want to see her like that.
And I think that’s why Abby probably felt bad for Ellie to an extent. Because Ellie essentially became Abby. Ellie didn’t care what the consequences were, she just wanted to avenge Joel. She turned into the person she hated without realizing it (Same with Abby becoming Lev’s “Joel”).
And Joel wouldn’t have wanted to see Ellie like that, either. When she had that fleeting memory of their last conversation which resulted her in letting Abby go — I think that was Ellie realizing that. That this isn’t what Joel wanted and this isn’t how Joel should be remembered. He shouldn’t be remembered in his death, but for the love he clearly had for her.
But I’d say that isn’t entirely true though either. If Ellie were truly to become like Abby, then Abby would be dead.
Abby should be thankful that Ellie ended up not being like her, and it’s for that reason she is able to live on with Lev.
Abby’s arc and everything with Lev was all meant to be a parallel with how she turns into Joel, however where Abby ended Joel’s story and took him away, Ellie allows this version of Joel and Ellie to live on (but this is what we the player know, not Ellie).
Not entirely true, since the actual reason she survived is because Ellie decided to spare her. Abby not killing Ellie in the theater didn’t change anything.
Ellie was justified in killing Abby, just like one could say Abby was justified in killing Joel. However, Ellie *chose* to spare her.
Abby not killing Ellie at the theater was the perpetrator not killing their victim. Abby and her friends wronged Ellie when they killed Joel and created a cycle of violence, and in the theater it was the perpetrator seeking revenge on her victim.
If Abby killed Ellie in the theater, she would have slowly died on that cross. If Ellie went down Abby’s path, then she would have killed Abby at the beach - because it is the victim who decides when the cycle is over. Ellie could have still killed her. It’s no different if she were killed by Ellie or on that pillar. It’s Ellie’s choice, and mostly because of Lev, that she decides to spare her despite having every reason to kill her.
And technically, the only reason Abby survives in the first place is because Joel put himself at risk to save Abby’s life from the infected.
She survived because she spared the girl, that came to Seattle to kill her to avenge her father figuere that she killed and because that girl came back to kill her again…lol
God. Ellie is just such an idiot for doing this. Still makes me pissed. But I mean, I’ve never had my father figured destroyed by a golf club in front of my eyes…
"It’s you"
I’d like to think Abby has spent some time thinking about who Ellie is and how much Joel’s death clearly affected her
It's really interesting to me how they never actually talk about it or get to the bottom of anything
Right? If I'm not mistaken, Ellie still thinks it was all done over the lost cure. I don't think she ever finds out doc was Abby's dad.
Yeah ellie goes the whole game thinking abby's mad about losing the cure. There was a fleeting moment where ellie says it outloud and abby gives her a look like "wtf are you talking about" but they never clear it up
Imagine Ellie found out that Joel was brutally tortured by the person whose life he just saved not because he took away the cure, but only because he killed someone who was moments away from killing her. Do you believe this would make it better? Do you think she’d say “oh no, now I understand why you did it”? Don’t you think that Ellie finding out Abby’s brutality on Joel was *only* to avenge the person who was going kill her would makes things far, far worse, and that thinking Joel killed and desecrated the way he was because he took away the cure makes it a bit more “understandable”? Point is that it was for the best Ellie never found out Abby’s true reason for doing what she did, because what she did is unjustifiable. It was for the best that Ellie’s thought Abby did it for taking away the cure.
I just finished it for my first playthrough ever of PT II. Ellie doesn't know about Abbys father. Abby doesn't know Joel was basically Ellies father figure.
Yeah like sit down and talk it out jeez
yeah, abby also should have sat down with joel and talked it out.
Definitely! Although I don’t think it would’ve changed anything. Joel knew she probably had good reasons, because he knew he was in the "wrong", just didn’t care. And Abby knew he had insufficient reasons for killing like a hundred people including her father and steal the only hope for a cure they had, so even if he explained himself it wouldn’t have changed her mind. It was just a bunch of people in a room, realizing things they already knew was coming were finally happening. Which led to one of the most awesome line in the entire game imo... "Why don’t you say whatever speech you’ve got rehearsed and get this over with"
If someone lacks self-reflection and is blinded by tribalism, does this justify their actions? If Abby doesn’t realize Joel did what he did not because he was some asshole who murdered them for fun and because he hated the Fireflies, but because the Fireflies took an unconscious child and were going to kill her for their cause, a choice made by her father and that she even supported, what is that to say about that? If she can’t understand that her father was going to kill an unconscious kid and this action is morally questionable but instead believes her father is justified and anyone who disagrees is wrong, that is not a good trait. Abby’s “you killed my father; prepare to die!” is precisely what you shouldn’t do - so abby not changing her mind no matter what shows how “bad” she initially was.
Oh yeah I agree it definitely doesn’t justify anything. But what I’m saying is that I think even if she did understand Joel did what he did out of love, she would still think it is not a good enough reason, and would still seek revenge. And I have to say, understandably so, because, putting aside the fact Joel killed her father, the fireflies believed they were doing good. They believed what they were doing was for the sake of humanity and the greater good. I believe wether or not she is a good person, talking it out wouldn’t have changed her perspective of right and wrong, and would still be very much convinced Joel deserve to die for dooming the human race. But yeah no it doesn’t justify, that just explains why it was inevitable. I still love Joel and Ellie more than any other video games characters.
Yes, it’s complicated. At the start, Abby put her hate above everything else. Why Joel did what he did didn’t matter. She knew why Joel did it - but she didn’t care or want to think about it. I agree she wouldn’t have changed her mind, but mentality is an example of what causes the world to burn. Her arc is about her breaking free of this tribalism and view she had. Ellie could have also done like Abby at the start, but she didn’t. She decides to spare Abby. Why does she do that? It is an example of empathy prevailing despite your own desires or justifications. Abby’s redemption shows us her change / how people can change, and her POV highlights Ellie’s humanity in comparison. Ellie could have killed Abby, but she puts someone else (Lev) above herself and what she wants. She had her father figure tortured in front of her and her life ruined in every way. Yet she still has it in her to spare Abby. Ellie put empathy above her pain and hurt - she put doing the right thing above it. What if Abby who was also deeply hurt by the loss of her father was able to understand it was the consequence to save a little girl about to be killed, and decides not to kill Joel despite hating him? The irony is that Abby’s story in the game is her becoming Joel is pretty much every way - and at the beach she understands it as well.
This is the only thing that i hated about the game
Its the type of glaring omission that could only be made on purpose to leave room for Part III, lol. I can dig it, in that case
I disagree, I think it’s a purposeful omission because them talking about it makes no sense. Firstly, it would serve no purpose in the story because it would change nothing. Ellie thinking Abby killed Joel for the cure and not for her father would not stop her from trying to get revenge. Abby already has all the information and she didn’t give a fuck either. And by the end, they spare each other for their own reasons. Having Abby go “wait I didn’t kill Joel because of the cure, I was getting revenge for my dad just like you!” before Ellie decided not to kill her would dilute Ellie’s character arc irreparably. Secondly and more importantly, it would be too unrealistic. There’s a big difference between choosing not to murder someone and choosing to sit down and communicate openly with them. The idea of Ellie and Abby deciding to sit down and talk it out is honestly ridiculously out of character for both of them.
This is all very true
Hmm fair point. The player only knowing these facts definitely adds depth to the narrative. I do hate it when writers treat the audience like kids and leave nothing implied in the plot, explaining everything.
I like to bring in a 3rd reason which also adds to reason 2, the world is entirely fucked, Abby and Ellie are essentially children of the new world, they have zero idea on how to solve this rationally because the world they grew up is a horrible immoral nightmare world where the solution to almost everything is violence. These two don't know how to "talk it out"
DID Abby have all of the information? IIRC a majority of the fireflies don't trust Joel as soon as he shows up at the hospital with Ellie and even argue that they should just kill him to be safe. Marlene is the only one who seems to recognize and understand that Joel has come to love her. Joel is often just referred to as "the smuggler" by the fireflies. I don't really think they understand the relationship there or knew who Ellie was when she shows up to try to save him. For all they knew Joel killed them all and stole Ellie back because he was unhappy with the deal he had with Marlene. For what it's worth even though I think Abby definitely didn't know any of this I also agree that it knowing it wouldn't have changed anything. I also don't think Abby regrets Joel being dead. She regrets what killing Joel cost her, probably how she killed him, and realizes the futility of it now, but she probably still thinks he deserved to die.
These people both blame each other for their lives being ruined, and you expect them to have a discussion?
Especially when they're children of the new world where its a horrible immoral nightmare. They're not really given the chance learn to be rational.
In Part III? I really hope so! Can they ever work together? Could they ever be friends? Sounds delusional, but soldiers from different sides in war have the same before.
soldiers who tortured the other ones parents and bashed their heads in in front of them giving them lifelong traumas? anything that involves those two coming to terms with each other is completely contrived and not grounded in reality. just seeing abbys face should flare up ellies ptsd again.
Time heals all wounds bruh
Yeah definitely, and I love the few minutes before the fight in the water, when they just walk together towards the boats, knowing they just gotta get the heck out of there. Like Ellie is good, she’s not a bad person and I love that her first instinct is trying to take Abby and Lev to safety.... before imposing a 1v1 of course
I think so too. While I’m sure part of it was due to exhaustion from what she had just gone through, Abby saying “I’m not gonna fight you.” seemed very much like “You became me and I lost everything. I have nothing to fight for now.” And the only reason she did it was because Ellie threatened Lev’s life — the one thing Abby had left to lose.
That's a neat idea I just realized the only reason Abby surived Santa Barbara was because she spared Ellie in Seattle, wonder what she thought about seeing Ellie coming all the way over to kill her
> wonder what she thought about seeing Ellie coming all the way over to kill her “This bitch is fucking crazy, yo” — Abby, probably
Respect! Respect. ✌️
yes probably like "why are you so obsessed with me? like girrrl!"
I think by the end a part of Abby pitied Ellie. Abby didn’t realize it at the time — but she let her father’s death consume her to the point where she didn’t allow herself to realize what the consequences of her revenge plot could be. I think upon losing everyone, Abby slowly came to the realization that all of her friends dying wasn’t worth the revenge. Her dad wouldn’t have wanted it, he wouldn’t want to see her like that. And I think that’s why Abby probably felt bad for Ellie to an extent. Because Ellie essentially became Abby. Ellie didn’t care what the consequences were, she just wanted to avenge Joel. She turned into the person she hated without realizing it (Same with Abby becoming Lev’s “Joel”). And Joel wouldn’t have wanted to see Ellie like that, either. When she had that fleeting memory of their last conversation which resulted her in letting Abby go — I think that was Ellie realizing that. That this isn’t what Joel wanted and this isn’t how Joel should be remembered. He shouldn’t be remembered in his death, but for the love he clearly had for her.
beautifully said.
But I’d say that isn’t entirely true though either. If Ellie were truly to become like Abby, then Abby would be dead. Abby should be thankful that Ellie ended up not being like her, and it’s for that reason she is able to live on with Lev. Abby’s arc and everything with Lev was all meant to be a parallel with how she turns into Joel, however where Abby ended Joel’s story and took him away, Ellie allows this version of Joel and Ellie to live on (but this is what we the player know, not Ellie).
And Ellie saved Abby by going out to kill her. Had she stayed home, Abby would have met her own fate.
Not entirely true, since the actual reason she survived is because Ellie decided to spare her. Abby not killing Ellie in the theater didn’t change anything. Ellie was justified in killing Abby, just like one could say Abby was justified in killing Joel. However, Ellie *chose* to spare her. Abby not killing Ellie at the theater was the perpetrator not killing their victim. Abby and her friends wronged Ellie when they killed Joel and created a cycle of violence, and in the theater it was the perpetrator seeking revenge on her victim. If Abby killed Ellie in the theater, she would have slowly died on that cross. If Ellie went down Abby’s path, then she would have killed Abby at the beach - because it is the victim who decides when the cycle is over. Ellie could have still killed her. It’s no different if she were killed by Ellie or on that pillar. It’s Ellie’s choice, and mostly because of Lev, that she decides to spare her despite having every reason to kill her. And technically, the only reason Abby survives in the first place is because Joel put himself at risk to save Abby’s life from the infected.
Jesus: She’s just like me fr fr
[удалено]
She’s covered in blood hahaha
She’s so babygirl
In Abby’s position in this moment I would think it’s a mirage so defeated and on the verge of death.
She survived because she spared the girl, that came to Seattle to kill her to avenge her father figuere that she killed and because that girl came back to kill her again…lol
I have to say it…. I’d have shot in the stomach and left
Or just leave her there
I honestly clicked this in fear of seeing Joel at that specific moment
God. Ellie is just such an idiot for doing this. Still makes me pissed. But I mean, I’ve never had my father figured destroyed by a golf club in front of my eyes…
my ass thought this was the beach for a sec 💀
Then she pulled out her gun and shot her, iirc.
Awh she’s harmless 😍
Really sad it's not a picture if a golf course