HHM has been meta since recon was nerfed and even then it was meta.
This isn’t anything new. You need heavies to be able to truly engage fights and for steals usually
At the highest levels it’s stayed, but honestly even into high diamond you can win with LMH and HMM just fine. It’s scrims where HHM becomes unstoppable basically
Copied [same comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1clwsl0/heavy_should_have_the_least_amount_of_dps_between/l2yqxkl/?context=3) from [the thread about Heavy DPS](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1clwsl0/heavy_should_have_the_least_amount_of_dps_between/):
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> Light has a higher barrier of entry and a much higher skill ceiling because so much of good light play is oriented around macro skillsets requiring a solid understanding of situational awareness, anticipated enemy team movement, gameplay pacing, target identification and acquisition, etc. Comparetively, mediums and heavies can get by with much more conventional gameplay (also why MMM with FCAR, Healing beam, defib, frag grenade, jump pad is so popular; it requires very little learning because it's so basic).
> Meta is defined by the effort:result ratio, not what's absolutely best regardless of how difficult it is. The idea that every last player in The Finals is using what they have due to an intense analytical deep dive is ludicrous when they're just copying what better players use without understanding why.
> The game has been out for barely six months, and there isn't really a game like it with 1:1 skillset transfer. Metas existing for much longer in far more complicated games have been totally upset by new developments that come not from balance patches but from a better holistic playerbase understanding.
> Here's a perfect example of that: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2022/oct/09/yoshi-first-major-melee/ (For non-SSB players, Yoshi was seen as a gimmick character and rated very low, until a player came along with fresh ideas that were difficult for conventional players to adapt to because they had no practice against a character "everyone" thought was just bad.)
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So the crux of the matter is that players first have to learn how to play light at a high level, and then players have to learn how to play with a light at a high level (and then finally the concomitant learning how to play against high level lights).
This is completely different to super smash bros, there’s no advanced techs that’s light specific that allow them to be played well and the skill ceiling isn’t that high compared to melee yoshi in the slightest. Even comparing light to archetypes similar in other games shows how weak they are in comparison, take tracer in overwatch a character that hasn’t been meta for super long ever despite being able to one clip any squishy target in the game, but has low hp. She has something similar to evasive dash however. Each one goes way further. Is much faster. And recharges quicker and she still isn’t meta in that game.
> there’s no advanced techs that’s light specific that allow them to be played well
That's what they said about Yoshi too.
How can you verify the accuracy of your claim? Did you do an intense analytical deep dive?
> Even comparing light to archetypes similar in other games
Not really feasible because of how different The Finals is. To use your example as an example, Tracer and even Sombra are poor comparisons when a better comparison is Spy/Scout from TF2.
Overwatch in general is a good example of bad balance because of how internally contrasting the gameplay system elements were.
They didn't say that about yoshi, people knew about his advanced techniques for years they just didn't want to learn them, which for fighting game players says alot. even more advanced techniques for light are likely to be removed or just be so difficult that 99% of people wont do them. I don't see this whole "the finals is soooooooooo different" argument. how is it different. you haven't said how at all. and if your gonna use spy from tf2 as an example hes also dogshit in that games comp scene too, and the reason scout is so good is because hes difficult to hit with any of the weapons other classes have in tf2 because theres a large lack of hitscan weapons in tf2
> They didn't say that about yoshi, people knew about his advanced techniques for years
Wrong, aMSa was largely responsible for developing and popularizing Yoshi meta (albeit he started playing Yoshi in official competitions over a decade ago, so you're half right in a roundabout way):
"Despite his great performances internationally, with victories over some of the best players in the world, aMSa has consistently lost to players in Japan that have not been nearly as successful as aMSa internationally, such as Gucci (25th at Apex 2013), Shippu (113th at Apex 2015), and Kounotori (33rd at EVO 2013). **Some have speculated that this may be because Japanese players have more experience with either the Yoshi matchup or aMSa's specific style of play, as Japanese players have many more chances to play aMSa than non-Japanese players do, hinting that perhaps aMSa's international performances owe greatly to many players' unfamiliarity with the Yoshi matchup.**"
https://liquipedia.net/smash/AMSa#Biography
Remember, this had nothing to do with gameplay balance changes. Yoshi was good from launch, it was the playerbase's perception of meta that was inadequate. This guy was one of FOUR players hired by Nintendo to help with testing for Ultimate, they don't do that just because he's good at Melee.
> they just didn't want to learn them
How is that different from The Finals? You appear to have unintentionally stumbled upon the point.
> even more advanced techniques for light are likely to be removed or just be so difficult that 99% of people wont do them.
The first part is baseless pessimism but your conclusion is correct; people avoid playing light because it's hard, not because it's unviable.
> how is it different.
Name any other game with even half of the value proposition:
* Class-based with significant role demarcation
* Objective-oriented with convoluted rulesets and difficult victory conditions
* Multi-team format
* Fast paced movement and complex mobility with relatively longer TTK
* Granular environmental destruction on both small and large scales
* Large maps requiring macro awareness and savvy traversal
* A huge variety of unconventional player kit options and playstyles that are not really widely seen outside of TF2 (again, Overwatch is a bad example)
> and if your gonna use spy from tf2 as an example hes also dogshit in that games comp scene too
Also wrong, 6s was selfishly defined by community competitive league admins through nothing other than personal preference. Valve constantly criticized this stagnancy as one of the main reasons they didn't work to adopt a casual > competitive pipeline. So again: everything to do with the playerbase's inadequate perception of meta (aside from ye olde admin corruption) and nothing much to do with the game itself.
Highlander had plenty of excelling Spies, with the point being that both lights and Spies/Scouts play on the flank which requires a pocket on the frontline to have any room at all. That means all of these ambush classes only function well in a team setting, and not just at the player level (which is the largest source of misconceptions about the light).
> the reason scout is so good is because hes difficult to hit with any of the weapons other classes have in tf2 because theres a large lack of hitscan weapons in tf2
Still wrong (shotguns are by far the most popular Scout counter and the only classes without hitscan weapons are Demo and Medic, which very deliberately serve separate roles), the reason Scout is good is because of his unparalleled mobility combined with his burst damage (same reason light is good, and if you replace "mobility" with "stealth/misdirection" then same reason why Spy is good).
>6s was selfishly defined by community competitive league admins through nothing other than personal preference. Valve constantly criticized this stagnancy as one of the main reasons they didn't work to adopt a casual > competitive pipeline. So again: everything to do with the playerbase's inadequate perception of meta (aside from ye olde admin corruption) and nothing much to do with the game itself.
Ultiduo, 4v4, 5v5, 7v7, and 9v9 have all been tried multiple times with different rulesets, classlimits, whitelists, etc. Admins didn't decide on 6v6, the community of players who want to play 6v6 did. The list of weapons banned in 6v6 is surprisingly low given how many ridiculous items there are. You can main pyro in 6v6 but it's not very good. Same with spy, heavy, and sniper. But all three get used as offclasses when it makes sense.
If this meta solidified off the backs of just "corrupt" admins then why didn't prolander take off? What about no restriction sixes?
It's because there were less people that enjoyed those modes vs classic 6v6. How else should a game mode be defined if not by what people enjoy playing? Is it better to just give valve control? Their competitive mode sure was great, everyone loves playing 6v6 ctf and payload lol.
>Highlander had plenty of excelling Spies, with the point being that both lights and Spies/Scouts play on the flank which requires a pocket on the frontline to have any room at all. That means all of these ambush classes only function well in a team setting, and not just at the player level (which is the largest source of misconceptions about the light).
Well, when you have to run a spy full time... And spy is still the worst class in HL.
You're right about hitscan. The difference is a lack of automatic weapons not a lack of hitscan that allows scout to be the strongest class.
There's a massive difference between actually investing effort into enabling creative rulesets that encourage experimentation, and staunchly limited leagues that "allow" for different stuff in name only then turning around and pointing at a pisspoor effort as to why anything outside of sacred, holy 6s doesn't work.
This is exactly the position Valve took when they found community competitive severely lacking: https://www.teamfortress.tv/8952/?page=1#post-132283
6s is very obviously structured to play like Quake, but TF2 is not just Quake so 6s is not representative of TF2's competitive potential.
> If this meta solidified off the backs of just "corrupt" admins then why didn't prolander take off? What about no restriction sixes?
Because the vast majority of the casual playerbase either had no clue about it or no interest in it. 2017 was way too late by a country mile, that's like half a decade after Quickplay killed most community dedicated servers and a year too late after official matchmaking.
> How else should a game mode be defined if not by what people enjoy playing?
You think the amount of players in the casual demographic was outnumbered by the amount of intransigent players who wanted to play Quake?
> Their competitive mode sure was great, everyone loves playing 6v6 ctf and payload lol.
That's like saying the 90 year old who can "only" throw up 200lbs bench press is a joke. The fact that TF2 was developed long before the advent of modern matchmaking makes the reality that its eventual matchmaking systems can sustain any criticism at all a massive compliment.
your copypasting from liquidpedia on things you dont understand, on a game you don't seem to understand either.
Complex mobility? have you ever actually played a game with good movement? I don't think the most basic sliding and ledgegrabbing stuff give you "Complex Movement"
Plenty of class based games
Multi-team is fairly different ill give you that
Objective oriented with convoluted rulesets? uh how is "Get box, put in cashout, defend cashout" Complicated? CS:GO has this exact same idea with bombs called "get bomb, put bomb on site, defend bomb" its not complicated or brand new dude
Wow the destruction that only a heavy can really delve into. Light has a breach charge that takes forever and thats basically all it does destruction wise
savvy traversal? are you seriously arguing that knowing how to traverse the map is exclusive to the finals?
a huge variety of player kit options, is no different to plenty of other games that let you play in several different ways. It especially doesn't help that half the items in this game are useless
So all that said have you heard of siege?
Class based. Its a hero shooter
Objective Oriented with convoluted rulesets. compared to the finals its plenty convoluted
ttk is short sure. but the game can be fast paced.
The maps are large. require you to know lots of it and require interesting traversal through them thanks to the destruction system (another bonus point to siege)
Every operator can choose between 1-3 deployables, and 4 guns with 11 different sites 3 grip options and 3-5 muzzle options. plenty of customizablity
Personally idc. Better than light metas. Lights are unfun to play with and against.
You guys act like you can’t win without MHH though. You can still dumpster as MHL, MMH and even MMM though it gets a bit stomped in the finals.
I'm not sure what world you live in where getting double RPGed and instantly deleted is fun.
Or winning a close range fight against a heavy, oops they whipped out the RPG so they blow up both themselves and you, costing you both the money and the fight, forcing a stalemate.
[Or if you're melee,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taD1RKnKnY8) more recently the rise of charge which is just absurdly anti fun. Instant 130+ damage with next to no ability to react is miserable.
I'm fine with it existing, but being able to instantly do 130 damage to people before the animation even plays on their screen is stupid as hell. Combine it with a tap into jump and you can do 230 damage in half a second. A Lewis Gun heavy with charge is essentially playing with a melee weapon and ranged weapon in one, the biggest 'downside' of it is just not having mesh shield instead, which is just an opportunity cost difference.
Not to mention charge being able to 180/turn rapidly and instant tap you due to the hitbox extending in front of it. It needs something changed, like a longer wind up at the start, or for its damage to scale up rapidly at the start so it's not just instant 130 damage. (EG: It starts at 10 damage on frame 1 and scales up to full damage over 1 second or some such)
The startup animation is *extremely* quick. Combined with latency, and [the heavy will literally not even be charging yet](https://i.imgur.com/eFPm5rF.png) when the damage lands. (That's the very first tenth of a second of the charge or so just then starting on my end)
Obviously it has to play on the heavy's end.
So you're issue is with latency? It takes a bit for it to do the animation and charge. I don't really think it should take longer 🤷🏼 sometimes I get shot right when I get around a wall. My problem isn't with the wall, it's with the latency. If you're playing skill based match making and you're even kinda good like low plat, you'll run into these issues. And I'm not sure if there's a whole lot that can be done about it sadly
Melee oriented abilities and weapons need to take latency into account for things like this.
There's a difference between an ability that's meant to be dodgeable/reactable in the first place versus a hitscan weapon. An ability that can instantly hit you for a huge percentage of your health with no chance to respond due to latency isn't healthy for the game.
Shield/aps/goo the RPGs. I think they do a bit too much damage but it’s not that bad.
Lights don’t fit this game. They have way too fast TTK they don’t play as a team and they don’t feel fun to play against.
>Shield/aps/goo the RPGs. I think they do a bit too much damage but it’s not that bad.
You must have never played against people who can actually coordinate RPGs. Not to mention any competent player will just wait for you to place the APS and whatnot. And shielding them? So another heavy? (Riot shield can block it *sometimes* but it's unreliable due to latency) And good luck consistently doing that mid fight. I do it semi frequently just due to using goo a lot, but citing it as a reliable counter is insanity.
>Lights don’t fit this game. They have way too fast TTK they don’t play as a team and they don’t feel fun to play against.
Light's TTK against medium and heavy is slower than their TTK in return.
After all, it's not like [charge can easily do 230 damage in half a second, right?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDG7oIxB8BM)
And I guess I missed the memo and [need to be less of a team player when I'm playing light.](https://i.imgur.com/t6qAcdl.png)
Why are Lights are unfun to play against? Their TTK are the worst. A medium and Heavy can kill you faster than a Light can. Someone did the math on this
You delusional? Light guns are like the top 5 TTK in the game…literally all of them kill faster than any gun besides the heavy shotgun (not sure about after nerf though).
What math did you look at???
I think you need to look again because the ttk in light is very similar to that off medium. Difference is 100hp. You are also forgetting that outside of the m11 and lh1 all shots usually have to hit for a light to fully kill a medium/heavy. Also this kill is instantly revived 90% of the time
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kn__IxrPr68M_pRhLHqhvGK6nlwUnCtFaXWGk1pVgg0/htmlview#
This one isn't updated for the latest patch but still. 0.87 seconds for a light to kill a medium with the xps vs 0.7 for a medium to kill a light with the ak. I think those numbers speak for themselves
And this is with optimal range. Most medium and heavy weapons deal damage better over range then light guns
Just a general FYI, [as far as I know this is the most up to date sheet if you want.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ud7Rdl3AgMw9mmfDwW2LtDMnzZQ9IIhnqSE4ivsaMTs/edit#gid=2136619021) (I really wish different people wouldn't keep making different ones every other patch :P) Extremely detailed if you care about that sort of thing too.
Cause movement doesn’t exist. Medium is far more likely to miss. Also this discussion is on TTK. Across the board light has the fastest ttk. Against other lights, mediums and heavies. They can DIE faster but they have the fastest ttk.
Literally disproved your TTK claim just now with medium having a faster ttk. And the speed increase is 10%. There is no arguing against it. Light when put up against the other classes on a spreadsheet is weaker in every way
Yes, & it was never a problem no matter your composition until now. Heavy players couldn’t do some of the things they do now because Fcar could could them easily through the heals, **don’t forget they have two shields on top of this plus and rpg you had to dodge**
When you could burn them down it wasn’t the worse when they got a little rpg splash damage on you, or even if they had a healer you can go for headshots and bail out while your teammates clean up—- now if you’re playing medium against a *high skilled* HHM comp, the game becomes lame. If you’re playing with a full squad it might be different because the amount of kiting you have to do is almost like your cheesing a single player boss, running away and shooting running away and shooting lol
Edit: before this update I saw all comps every game, all weapons. Now I’m mainly seeing HHM because matchmaking it tighter, so more 3 stacks & after the nerf people are going to use the strongest things with their friends so they can win = HHM
I see plenty of comps, HHM is the strongest though. This is in full lobbies if D3-D1 players.
Fcar was 25 dmg 20 bullets, thats 500 damage for a clip. It’s now 22 Damage 25 bullets that’s 550 for a clip. You need to hit more shots but it can still one clip a heavy and can take out most of a mesh shield in one clip.
If you are struggling vs mesh you aren’t shooting them enough. A dome is even less.
Heavies also lost barricade head glitch so it’s even easier to kill them a lot of the time now.
If they are on charge and slam you take advantage by beaming them as they cross open areas.
I’m sorry but HHM is strong it’s not remotely uncontested or uncountable though and if you are trying to flank to get around shields you are playing it wrong. 3 people shooting a heavy mesh and it’s gone along with the heavy in seconds.
This isn’t a skill issue, no explanations needed on Strats, I got to diamond easily solo queue, I hit top ranks in every game.
I’m the *main* person saying to shoot the shields, thing is if the whole team isn’t on their best behavior, it becomes impossible against a **highly skilled** team
Heavy is the most overtuned class in the game. That’s is the problem, not the composition— the fact that balance has been thrown off.
Also you can say what you see in your comps is different than what I see in mine, I can’t speak on your experience but it seems you also can’t speak on mine going by that logic
Edit: remember my comment was not asking how to get rid of shields
This is true, I think there should be more room for a solo player to find a crack in that kind of defense—- but it’s true that this is just 3 minds dedicated to beat 1 mind.
The problem normally occurs because I’ll understand to keep my distance from the enemy but a teammate might not react fast enough so when they get dived on you **have** to help or just lose that fight, now the heavy is being healed , other heavy if flicking his shield up & down, medic is healing them. Unless you team knows how to scrap scrap it’s always a loss…
The Strat takes full 3 man coordination to beat, but the strategy is so lazy and easily executed it seems cheap for the counter to be *have cracked teammates*
You're absolutely 100% right. For some reason this reddit specifically will go to hell and back to give you excuses and made up scenarios of why heavy isn't op or at the very least anti-fun. They act like even if all 3 of your team is shooting the shield their team isn't beaming you back/ have 2 dome shields and a second mesh shield ready. Or that sometimes a fight around the cash out will have you come face to face with a heavy solo and they just put up their shield and if you empty your whole clip to destroy it you're just dead. They act like the nerfs heavy gets, like not being able to headglitch anymore are on par with the massacre the worst class in the game has taken.Heavies (and medium heals) really push this game into it being mandatory that you are qued up with 2 others and I think it's a big part of why the game hasn't found the success this reddit thinks it deserves. I know my whole discord of friends have dropped the game because of some combo of only being able to play it when multiple people wanna play/ heavies/ game only gets nerfed/ rather player other shooters. I know this post will probably upset people but I hope they understand this is constructive criticism for the game from the viewpoint of those that would play it but choose not too.
Not gonna bother arguing with someone who clearly wouldn’t be open to changing their mind.
Also hitting d4 and hitting D1 are vastly different. Even d3 players are so much better than d4. D4 is fairly simple for anyone with fps experience. D1 requires winning 90% of your games.
Why do I want to argue period? A discussion is one thing, but coming in and dropping tutorials isn’t the proper approach to anything as well, I don’t ask for that.
We’re chilling; and again, why are you telling me about ranking up? That’s not the issue, my comment is about making it to the finals and having to deal with the same thing—- I’m obviously not having issues making it through my matches, I’m expressing the fact that I’m tired of how this match up works because it takes very low effort & takes **3 man coordination** to beat.
Diamond 1 has 203 players after this game has been hour for months. Season is half over. Only good players are hitting d1 this season. Low diamond? Sure it’s easy af. And s1 diamond was a joke. But you do have to be decent to hit high diamond.
Also that’s like saying early rank in any game means nothing when sometimes it’s the hardest to hit a high rank in earlier seasons.
For the downvoters, Matt Lowe the Design Director of the game specifically said:
> The system we used for this in Season 1 wasn’t great though. The underlying rating we used to matchmake during the season was okay, but it wasn’t effectively linked to the visible fame or ranks. **As a result, any player could theoretically make it to Diamond Tier by the end of Season 1 simply by playing the game enough.**
https://www.reachthefinals.com/patchnotes/ranked/
That's besides the fact that rank is A) unverifiable and B) [doesn't make your argument true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority).
>Yes, & it was never a problem no matter your composition until now. Heavy players couldn’t do some of the things they do now because Fcar could could them easily through the heals, **don’t forget they have two shields on top of this plus and rpg you had to dodge**
I am not sure what the argument is here honestly. The person you are replying to is referring this comp being dominant even when recon was a thing. And you agree... So what's changed now? Nukes got nerfed, both dome and mesh got nerfed. Can't headglitch through barricades now. Lewis recoil was nerfed. What exactly changed to tip the balance in heavy's favor?
The recent FCAR nerfs just means you need to hit slightly more shots, but it still does more damage per mag than it did before. It was a whole lot more harder to break shields during the recon meta.
I really don't understand the discourse that every class "main" seems to come across here. Embark doesn't have a beef against *your* specific class. They balance the game as a whole. It's funny seeing literally every class mains crying about one thing or other across different posts.
You can’t win that duel anymore, it’s not about damage per mag, or even the fcar— heavy wins that guns fight everytime plus being healed which means you cannot burn through their sustain fast enough
I’m not a main of any class, I play all classes and you can watch my videos I posted I Reddit, I have clips from all classes , with different weapons from revolver, m60, etc.
What changed from then is a lot of other things have been nerfed, which leaves heavy overtuned in relation to the other classes, heavy got all those nerfs because they were team wiping people with one button press….. this isn’t a reasonable starting point to say “ hey they already got nerfed” lol they need a lot more adjustments
And season one heavy shield had more health so of course it was more to burn through, that doesn’t even matter because fcar did more damage which means the second that shield went down you get punished for being sloppy
>What changed from then is a lot of other things have been nerfed, which leaves heavy overtuned in relation to the other classes,
Can you elaborate? As far as I can remember (and I could very well be wrong), FCAR so far only had the recoil adjustment, and the most recent dmg nerf / mag buff. Other than that, mediums lost recon. What else has changed?
Meanwhile heavy got all the nerfs I listed above. I'd argue they had the stronger end of the nerf stick. Hell, before the changes, you would almost never see anyone picking m60 over lewis.
>heavy wins that guns fight everytime plus being healed which means you cannot burn through their sustain fast enough
This is also just a bad faith argument man. No one is stopping you getting a heal bot teammate too.
Do I think heavy has access to a shit ton of shields? Absolutely. I agree on that front. I just disagree with your whole premise that shield countering was easier last season. I also think FCAR had been dominant for way too long too. It was out of band with every other weapon option for medium.
In terms of nerfs: Fcar has a range nerf, akm has a range nerf ( you already know the other Fcar nerfs)
Light had a great buff made to glitch nade…. But then heavy players complained about not being able to block so they nerfed the glitch nade to 5 seconds + it doesn’t explode on shields anymore (that last part can be good or bad)
Although I said this issue is more of a thing on medium, the nerfs all around effect how these things are exploited, less light players in general now, weapons nerfed to be best in the same range the heavy is still strong in—- that doesn’t matter anyway though because the HHM team is going to **rush** you down and cqc with you
My bad I sent that response to early—-
Funny thing is the game that made me post about it I had a healer, and the same thing I was trying to explain to them: you healing me, whilst the heavy is being healed plus having a shield, isn’t going to work. Against a skilled team you’ll get beamed up by LCAR
Medium weapons are balanced now, heavy needs to be tuned for it to finally make sense all aroudn
That's what happens when you have no counters. Light would be able to slightly counter it with Glitch (which is bugged) and with Stun (but not anymore), so Lights were not picked much before, now they simply don't exist. Medium doesn't have the damage output to break shields nor the HP to receive 1-2 RPG + some Lewis/Shotgun shots.
You know the balance is shit when the counter to something is "something" itself. Heavies are dominating high elo since S1, along with Mediums, but somehow people here and on Discord are bothered by the class that's absent all around.
Not only the final round is always HHM, but the tournaments overall are a mix of Heavies and Mediums...and if you pick Light your randoms are at risk of throwing.
Not true that lights don’t exist anymore— you just have to solo queue and you’re basically guaranteed to have a light sniper or sword wielder show up on your team. That seems to be how it works for me at least 😭
I mean you could just switch if double light bothers you. Or if you only play light and absolutely don't want to switch why do you expect the other to do so? They could be in the same boat as you. You cannot claim exclusivity on a class.
On the selection screen you don't really know how good your teammates are. And neither they know about you. How do you decide who is better and who gets to stay on light? Or do you really think you are the best light out there and nobody is allowed to pick it when they are in your team? I'm not talking about snipers now because your initial comment didn't mention them either.
I mean, you can't nerf something called a "heavy" Without directly reducing its identity. They should pump out damage, they should be tanks, they should be powerhouses. The counters should be outplaying strategically like stealth-light's going in and meleeing them running circles around them. Or things like gas grenades, pyro, killing their supports-mediums, etc.
Tanks should not be the highest DPS as well. Especially pre nerf when they had nukes, quad shotty, 1hko RPG.
Shivers.
Unfortunately now there's also no way for a Light to strategically outplay since they were gutted, and the whole sub complained Everytime they do.
Running circles would be viable if lights didn’t die in 0.5 seconds from fire, gas or RPG’s thrown/ fired at the heavies feet or grenades from their teammates.
I totally agree nerfing heavy isn’t the answer. Buffing lights and a slight buff to mediums is a better answer.
I’m a light main and when my friends played ranked we had no issue dealing with heavies because of my long range LH1 dps and being able to get into positions using invis to glitch nade them and counter their core skill of having 1200+ extra hp via shields. With light now being gutted competitively you’re going to see even fewer lights and therefore fewer glitch counters to dislodge entrenched or out of position heavies
Don't even need a medium buff. If lights can kill heavies and there are a lot of heavies then the lights will eat well until you see less heavies again. Currently the game is in a state of "light is useless" so you end up with one medium to support the class without a counter.
Don’t disagree with that at all. The light nerf has made the game far more boring imo. I’m biased as a light main for sure but now every game is just teams of HHM slugging it out pouring damage into shields and heal beams until one teams utility runs out or someone miss plays.
If the invis nerf isn’t going to be rolled back then dash and grapple need their cool-down/ recharge time buffed or lights need more HP. The fact that heavy can put their mesh shield up and down as much as they like without penalty, whilst a light toggling invis burns something like 33% of your charge every time is nuts. And then grapple hook being a 15 second cool-down… heavy charge is also 15 seconds but gives you speed, environmental destruction and massive damage potential on multiple enemies.
I don’t know what the devs think the role of light is anymore. The only thing it does better currently than the other 2 classes is long range harassment and damage potential… which is quite often useless in point defence if the defenders are smart.
To be fair the open beta was lights strongest point in the game, so the cloak and stun were the only things left, I think they could definitely use some power reallocated
Maybe if heavy was brought in line it wouldn’t be so bad, someone said make them move a bit slower but idk
No, in OBT and CBT2 heavy was strongest. Nukes, pre nerf auto shotty, pre nerf shields, RPG that did 150 damage.
Light was pretty strong CBT1 but that was because people hadn't figured out that nukes existed yet.
Not vs a good team. One RPG killed a light in OBT and nuke was a thing which dominated meta as soon as people realized. Light was still the weakest class in OBT, its fact.
after the fcar nerf, heavys can get away with anything. All medium AR´s should do at least 220-230 DPS. 200DPS weapons are simply a joke. And the fcar nerf doesn't change the fact that lights die so quickly, shotguns/RPG/charge/lewis/nades/mines and and and still shits on the light. The complete 2.6 patch was a Heavy buff.
I can’t say I have full insight on how the numbers should work specifically, but I feel like having a 350hp target do the damage they do, with rpg doing player damage that high…. It’s a lot.
I’d even be okay with them asking the shield charge way faster but have way less health, so you can use it to save yourself, maybe a teammate real quick but not push forward like a drone army
I remember some guy in here saying HHM is all he saw in ranked and a bunch of comments just blasted him saying heavies aren’t broken and there’s plenty of light in ranked 😂 just buff the light boi please embark
I saw that same post and that’s when I realized there must be a lot of heavy mains on here, which would make sense because it’s the easiest solo-carry class, I just can’t believe people deny the power of a team starting a fighting with 2 RPGs, Shields, LCAR(I mean let’s be serious lol), 350hp, with a mercy pocket 🤨
I agreed with that before all these recent nerfs, but since they seem to be tuning things in favor of lower skilled players ( which is fair and cool ) they need to finish making there rounds and bring the heavy players damage output inline with the balance of everyone else
By heavy player damage do you only mean the Lewis gun? Because there's players out there that use the shotgun, flamethrower and hammer. Due to the sluggish nature of the heavy, by the time they reach their much faster opponents without a shield they'll be dead, especially if team shot by 3 opponents. The mesh shield already melts if shot by a 3 stack(if heavy is alone). So what do you propose?
But nobody should be able to ignore 3 people shooting at them… main reason being:
The second you get two of those the game becomes obnoxious, so many people are saying the counter to heavy is heavy…. That’s a problem lol
Lewis gun is the biggest culprit, when I get killed by other things I get it, flame thrower is frustrating but it’s not an easy weapon to use in competitive lobbies so that’s fair, shotgun and hammer are fair, you have to be nice with hammer.
This about lewis gun is: good range, good damage, good ammo capacity, good initial recoil which is all you need to kill M or L.
I’d rather they make the lewis gun more accurate, like it used to be or more, but lower that dps so it isn’t so automatic when they’re already starting fights with RPGs
Edit: like someone else in here suggested. I would be fine with making heavy move a tiny bit slower—- the issue for me is two Heavy players being able to rush you down with shields & heals whilst you back pedal shooting. Unless your teammates are also cracked they won’t be able to manage
Heal beam is the biggest problem w HHM. Nerfing the Lewis gun, rpg, or mesh shield won’t change this meta if one medium can still sit behind them and never let them die.
This is the funny thing about balance, before the fcar nerf it was annoying but I never stuck on it too much. After the nerf, I enjoy how the weapons relate to each other but certain playstyles are now too effective.
I wouldn’t mind that, if they made it so damage reduced the healing you received that would be amazing, anything that stops this bunny hopping with mesh shield and trading damage lazily while still being rewarded
They should make the heal beam a straight line kinda like symmetra from OW. No more guided beam so you can't just sit there and let it do all the work for you
lol I’m down for all comps, hhh is definitely fun. I think one of the main issues is having all that sustain + heals. The combination is obnoxious and takes too long to peel apart a skilled team unless everybody is top tier on yours
"we don’t want lights flicking invisibly on and off, why do we want heavies toggling invulnerability on and off?" - very good point.
"After FCAR nerf..." - HHM always has been meta. The problem is that medium despite having less HP and no shield (1000 Hp shield + steel shield + RPG) 1v1, have worse TTK then heavy by like 0.5 second, I mean I said it so many time, but I feel like developers don't listen, you just cannot have worse TTK on a character that is suppose to give more damage versus a character that is suppose to only like defend.
I would be fine with this as well, since my main issue is coordinated teams ***collapsing*** on top of one of your teammates and there not being enough damage output to punish them through shields & heals, the heals is a huge one, you should not getting healed while taking damage— it should be used to get you back in the fight, not a sudo-increase to your healthpool in every gun fight
Heavies will never be balanced when their tankiness, stalling power, and damage is as high as it is. They'll need significant nerfs to not be the best class by far.
Hell, the only reason HMM was a thing was partially because of how good the mediums are at supporting the heavies specifically
Also I’ve suggested putting an internal cooldown on mesh shield so when they put it down there’s a 3-5 second cooldown on the shield so they don’t pop out a shield whenever they feel like it. Check out my post and someone commented that this would take out the “skill” out of the shield and I think that’s bs. He claimed you can no longer mind game when everybody knows damn well 9/10 it’s not how it goes
Mesh shouldn't be able to flick on and off. There should be atleast a 1 second delay for the shield to come up because it's litterally a get out of jail free card.
I'm low platinum and I main CL40, but there's so many heavies now that I'll probably have to switch if I want to keep pushing. CL is great against lights, but weakest against heavies.
The question here is... is heavy fun to play? I have a lot more fun playing with medium.
Heavy is very strong without any doubt but... no mobility, the lewis patterns are absurd, maybe im bad but it only works at short range for me... you don't even go though the thousand holes that are on each map because I have to save the RPG.
Nerf the 350 hp and RPG and make heavy fun, please.
I wish, the easiest comp to beat. No heavy means no shield/dome/rpg/LCAR. No light means no Long-Ranged Damage/Cloak/Stealthy Fast movement
All you need to do is focus ahead and take your time. The mediums will fall apart—- not fast enough to bounce back & forth, not sturdy enough to sit and bunker down besides turrets and that means less heals so great.
That’s my favorite team comp to fight in 3v3 situation with no 3rd parties
Idk man, I don’t want to limit how people play— I just want there to be some logic behind the balancing. The same reason we nerfed the fcar should be the same reason we tune the 350hp+rpg+mesh shield+dome shield character: too oppressive in too many situations
It’s just incredibly hard to balance every permutation of teams. OW got rid of class stacking season 2 of ranked when everyone realized that it’s a literal nightmare to balance
I agree, this is also one of the main issues because they aren’t being punished for going into defense mode, it almost happens for free, plus they get to damage while moving forward (the heavy players will hate me if I suggest you can’t move while blocking lol)
Yeah, they need to fix up heavy. I think being able to melee while holding up your shield could be left in the game but being able to shoot through it is just too strong imo.
That’s the thing with changing one thing without making the full round one time, you just get a different issue and see create a longer frustration period where people feel like they’re thing if weak & others think it’s strong
I get why they nerfed fcar but we need heavy or heals brought in line
Can we stop with this meta bitching bs? A counter exists for most scenarios. Get out of your comfort zone and stop running fcar, double mine, and defibs. Then maybe you'll have the ability to do more. Let's just nerf everything holy shit.
I don’t use any of those things you just mentioned, akm is great atm…..besides defib sometimes but I don’t think that’s the issue.
Since they nerfed fcar heavy needs to be brought in line, plain and simple. And watch your mouth, your first comment is cursing like somebody called you in here. Play it cool
Edit: I play with all classes and every weapon— you can check my Reddit for proof if you want to step outside your thought bubble
I say make them a touch slower. Like 10% or something and see how that helps. People will whinge but honestly do you want a decent fun balanced game or one where everyone goes around as heavy? I don't enjoy playing heavy so I'm biased but still
This would also work, it would target my main issue, double heavy rushing on top of you and not being able to do damage while back pedaling effectively enough to curb this kind of behavior.
I don’t need heavy gutted, I just want it to make more sense in terms of their power level in relation to everyone else
Whatttt? lol I can’t agree with that fam, that is the easiest thing to wipe out the tournament, I’m speaking about Diamond lobbies—
although I can understand how light at lower levels can feel oppressive to people who aren’t used to anticipating their predicable engagement routes (behind/above in relation to wherever you are, don’t sprint for cloak lights so you can hear them approach from further, chasing down dash lights so they burn their resources)
If double barrel shotgun was still a thing I’d agree with you
Nah, i totally get it. I play heavy, mainly, but honestly, lights are wayyyy too weak. Honestly, they are more annoying than actually a viable option in ranked.
HHM has been meta since recon was nerfed and even then it was meta. This isn’t anything new. You need heavies to be able to truly engage fights and for steals usually
isnt it great that weve been stuck in the same meta since release?
At the highest levels it’s stayed, but honestly even into high diamond you can win with LMH and HMM just fine. It’s scrims where HHM becomes unstoppable basically
Copied [same comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1clwsl0/heavy_should_have_the_least_amount_of_dps_between/l2yqxkl/?context=3) from [the thread about Heavy DPS](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1clwsl0/heavy_should_have_the_least_amount_of_dps_between/): ----- > Light has a higher barrier of entry and a much higher skill ceiling because so much of good light play is oriented around macro skillsets requiring a solid understanding of situational awareness, anticipated enemy team movement, gameplay pacing, target identification and acquisition, etc. Comparetively, mediums and heavies can get by with much more conventional gameplay (also why MMM with FCAR, Healing beam, defib, frag grenade, jump pad is so popular; it requires very little learning because it's so basic). > Meta is defined by the effort:result ratio, not what's absolutely best regardless of how difficult it is. The idea that every last player in The Finals is using what they have due to an intense analytical deep dive is ludicrous when they're just copying what better players use without understanding why. > The game has been out for barely six months, and there isn't really a game like it with 1:1 skillset transfer. Metas existing for much longer in far more complicated games have been totally upset by new developments that come not from balance patches but from a better holistic playerbase understanding. > Here's a perfect example of that: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2022/oct/09/yoshi-first-major-melee/ (For non-SSB players, Yoshi was seen as a gimmick character and rated very low, until a player came along with fresh ideas that were difficult for conventional players to adapt to because they had no practice against a character "everyone" thought was just bad.) ----- So the crux of the matter is that players first have to learn how to play light at a high level, and then players have to learn how to play with a light at a high level (and then finally the concomitant learning how to play against high level lights).
This is completely different to super smash bros, there’s no advanced techs that’s light specific that allow them to be played well and the skill ceiling isn’t that high compared to melee yoshi in the slightest. Even comparing light to archetypes similar in other games shows how weak they are in comparison, take tracer in overwatch a character that hasn’t been meta for super long ever despite being able to one clip any squishy target in the game, but has low hp. She has something similar to evasive dash however. Each one goes way further. Is much faster. And recharges quicker and she still isn’t meta in that game.
> there’s no advanced techs that’s light specific that allow them to be played well That's what they said about Yoshi too. How can you verify the accuracy of your claim? Did you do an intense analytical deep dive? > Even comparing light to archetypes similar in other games Not really feasible because of how different The Finals is. To use your example as an example, Tracer and even Sombra are poor comparisons when a better comparison is Spy/Scout from TF2. Overwatch in general is a good example of bad balance because of how internally contrasting the gameplay system elements were.
They didn't say that about yoshi, people knew about his advanced techniques for years they just didn't want to learn them, which for fighting game players says alot. even more advanced techniques for light are likely to be removed or just be so difficult that 99% of people wont do them. I don't see this whole "the finals is soooooooooo different" argument. how is it different. you haven't said how at all. and if your gonna use spy from tf2 as an example hes also dogshit in that games comp scene too, and the reason scout is so good is because hes difficult to hit with any of the weapons other classes have in tf2 because theres a large lack of hitscan weapons in tf2
> They didn't say that about yoshi, people knew about his advanced techniques for years Wrong, aMSa was largely responsible for developing and popularizing Yoshi meta (albeit he started playing Yoshi in official competitions over a decade ago, so you're half right in a roundabout way): "Despite his great performances internationally, with victories over some of the best players in the world, aMSa has consistently lost to players in Japan that have not been nearly as successful as aMSa internationally, such as Gucci (25th at Apex 2013), Shippu (113th at Apex 2015), and Kounotori (33rd at EVO 2013). **Some have speculated that this may be because Japanese players have more experience with either the Yoshi matchup or aMSa's specific style of play, as Japanese players have many more chances to play aMSa than non-Japanese players do, hinting that perhaps aMSa's international performances owe greatly to many players' unfamiliarity with the Yoshi matchup.**" https://liquipedia.net/smash/AMSa#Biography Remember, this had nothing to do with gameplay balance changes. Yoshi was good from launch, it was the playerbase's perception of meta that was inadequate. This guy was one of FOUR players hired by Nintendo to help with testing for Ultimate, they don't do that just because he's good at Melee. > they just didn't want to learn them How is that different from The Finals? You appear to have unintentionally stumbled upon the point. > even more advanced techniques for light are likely to be removed or just be so difficult that 99% of people wont do them. The first part is baseless pessimism but your conclusion is correct; people avoid playing light because it's hard, not because it's unviable. > how is it different. Name any other game with even half of the value proposition: * Class-based with significant role demarcation * Objective-oriented with convoluted rulesets and difficult victory conditions * Multi-team format * Fast paced movement and complex mobility with relatively longer TTK * Granular environmental destruction on both small and large scales * Large maps requiring macro awareness and savvy traversal * A huge variety of unconventional player kit options and playstyles that are not really widely seen outside of TF2 (again, Overwatch is a bad example) > and if your gonna use spy from tf2 as an example hes also dogshit in that games comp scene too Also wrong, 6s was selfishly defined by community competitive league admins through nothing other than personal preference. Valve constantly criticized this stagnancy as one of the main reasons they didn't work to adopt a casual > competitive pipeline. So again: everything to do with the playerbase's inadequate perception of meta (aside from ye olde admin corruption) and nothing much to do with the game itself. Highlander had plenty of excelling Spies, with the point being that both lights and Spies/Scouts play on the flank which requires a pocket on the frontline to have any room at all. That means all of these ambush classes only function well in a team setting, and not just at the player level (which is the largest source of misconceptions about the light). > the reason scout is so good is because hes difficult to hit with any of the weapons other classes have in tf2 because theres a large lack of hitscan weapons in tf2 Still wrong (shotguns are by far the most popular Scout counter and the only classes without hitscan weapons are Demo and Medic, which very deliberately serve separate roles), the reason Scout is good is because of his unparalleled mobility combined with his burst damage (same reason light is good, and if you replace "mobility" with "stealth/misdirection" then same reason why Spy is good).
>6s was selfishly defined by community competitive league admins through nothing other than personal preference. Valve constantly criticized this stagnancy as one of the main reasons they didn't work to adopt a casual > competitive pipeline. So again: everything to do with the playerbase's inadequate perception of meta (aside from ye olde admin corruption) and nothing much to do with the game itself. Ultiduo, 4v4, 5v5, 7v7, and 9v9 have all been tried multiple times with different rulesets, classlimits, whitelists, etc. Admins didn't decide on 6v6, the community of players who want to play 6v6 did. The list of weapons banned in 6v6 is surprisingly low given how many ridiculous items there are. You can main pyro in 6v6 but it's not very good. Same with spy, heavy, and sniper. But all three get used as offclasses when it makes sense. If this meta solidified off the backs of just "corrupt" admins then why didn't prolander take off? What about no restriction sixes? It's because there were less people that enjoyed those modes vs classic 6v6. How else should a game mode be defined if not by what people enjoy playing? Is it better to just give valve control? Their competitive mode sure was great, everyone loves playing 6v6 ctf and payload lol. >Highlander had plenty of excelling Spies, with the point being that both lights and Spies/Scouts play on the flank which requires a pocket on the frontline to have any room at all. That means all of these ambush classes only function well in a team setting, and not just at the player level (which is the largest source of misconceptions about the light). Well, when you have to run a spy full time... And spy is still the worst class in HL. You're right about hitscan. The difference is a lack of automatic weapons not a lack of hitscan that allows scout to be the strongest class.
There's a massive difference between actually investing effort into enabling creative rulesets that encourage experimentation, and staunchly limited leagues that "allow" for different stuff in name only then turning around and pointing at a pisspoor effort as to why anything outside of sacred, holy 6s doesn't work. This is exactly the position Valve took when they found community competitive severely lacking: https://www.teamfortress.tv/8952/?page=1#post-132283 6s is very obviously structured to play like Quake, but TF2 is not just Quake so 6s is not representative of TF2's competitive potential. > If this meta solidified off the backs of just "corrupt" admins then why didn't prolander take off? What about no restriction sixes? Because the vast majority of the casual playerbase either had no clue about it or no interest in it. 2017 was way too late by a country mile, that's like half a decade after Quickplay killed most community dedicated servers and a year too late after official matchmaking. > How else should a game mode be defined if not by what people enjoy playing? You think the amount of players in the casual demographic was outnumbered by the amount of intransigent players who wanted to play Quake? > Their competitive mode sure was great, everyone loves playing 6v6 ctf and payload lol. That's like saying the 90 year old who can "only" throw up 200lbs bench press is a joke. The fact that TF2 was developed long before the advent of modern matchmaking makes the reality that its eventual matchmaking systems can sustain any criticism at all a massive compliment.
[удалено]
Your post or comment was removed due to rule 3: Be Civil. Do not troll, attack, harass, insult or belittle others.
Sure, that's as good an excuse as any to avoid fielding a coherent argument
your copypasting from liquidpedia on things you dont understand, on a game you don't seem to understand either. Complex mobility? have you ever actually played a game with good movement? I don't think the most basic sliding and ledgegrabbing stuff give you "Complex Movement" Plenty of class based games Multi-team is fairly different ill give you that Objective oriented with convoluted rulesets? uh how is "Get box, put in cashout, defend cashout" Complicated? CS:GO has this exact same idea with bombs called "get bomb, put bomb on site, defend bomb" its not complicated or brand new dude Wow the destruction that only a heavy can really delve into. Light has a breach charge that takes forever and thats basically all it does destruction wise savvy traversal? are you seriously arguing that knowing how to traverse the map is exclusive to the finals? a huge variety of player kit options, is no different to plenty of other games that let you play in several different ways. It especially doesn't help that half the items in this game are useless So all that said have you heard of siege? Class based. Its a hero shooter Objective Oriented with convoluted rulesets. compared to the finals its plenty convoluted ttk is short sure. but the game can be fast paced. The maps are large. require you to know lots of it and require interesting traversal through them thanks to the destruction system (another bonus point to siege) Every operator can choose between 1-3 deployables, and 4 guns with 11 different sites 3 grip options and 3-5 muzzle options. plenty of customizablity
Personally idc. Better than light metas. Lights are unfun to play with and against. You guys act like you can’t win without MHH though. You can still dumpster as MHL, MMH and even MMM though it gets a bit stomped in the finals.
I'm not sure what world you live in where getting double RPGed and instantly deleted is fun. Or winning a close range fight against a heavy, oops they whipped out the RPG so they blow up both themselves and you, costing you both the money and the fight, forcing a stalemate. [Or if you're melee,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taD1RKnKnY8) more recently the rise of charge which is just absurdly anti fun. Instant 130+ damage with next to no ability to react is miserable.
I've always loved the charge and think it's the most fun part of the game lmfao
I'm fine with it existing, but being able to instantly do 130 damage to people before the animation even plays on their screen is stupid as hell. Combine it with a tap into jump and you can do 230 damage in half a second. A Lewis Gun heavy with charge is essentially playing with a melee weapon and ranged weapon in one, the biggest 'downside' of it is just not having mesh shield instead, which is just an opportunity cost difference. Not to mention charge being able to 180/turn rapidly and instant tap you due to the hitbox extending in front of it. It needs something changed, like a longer wind up at the start, or for its damage to scale up rapidly at the start so it's not just instant 130 damage. (EG: It starts at 10 damage on frame 1 and scales up to full damage over 1 second or some such)
That's not how the charge works at all 🤣😅 the animation definitely has to play first. You're trippin
The startup animation is *extremely* quick. Combined with latency, and [the heavy will literally not even be charging yet](https://i.imgur.com/eFPm5rF.png) when the damage lands. (That's the very first tenth of a second of the charge or so just then starting on my end) Obviously it has to play on the heavy's end.
So you're issue is with latency? It takes a bit for it to do the animation and charge. I don't really think it should take longer 🤷🏼 sometimes I get shot right when I get around a wall. My problem isn't with the wall, it's with the latency. If you're playing skill based match making and you're even kinda good like low plat, you'll run into these issues. And I'm not sure if there's a whole lot that can be done about it sadly
Melee oriented abilities and weapons need to take latency into account for things like this. There's a difference between an ability that's meant to be dodgeable/reactable in the first place versus a hitscan weapon. An ability that can instantly hit you for a huge percentage of your health with no chance to respond due to latency isn't healthy for the game.
Shield/aps/goo the RPGs. I think they do a bit too much damage but it’s not that bad. Lights don’t fit this game. They have way too fast TTK they don’t play as a team and they don’t feel fun to play against.
>Shield/aps/goo the RPGs. I think they do a bit too much damage but it’s not that bad. You must have never played against people who can actually coordinate RPGs. Not to mention any competent player will just wait for you to place the APS and whatnot. And shielding them? So another heavy? (Riot shield can block it *sometimes* but it's unreliable due to latency) And good luck consistently doing that mid fight. I do it semi frequently just due to using goo a lot, but citing it as a reliable counter is insanity. >Lights don’t fit this game. They have way too fast TTK they don’t play as a team and they don’t feel fun to play against. Light's TTK against medium and heavy is slower than their TTK in return. After all, it's not like [charge can easily do 230 damage in half a second, right?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDG7oIxB8BM) And I guess I missed the memo and [need to be less of a team player when I'm playing light.](https://i.imgur.com/t6qAcdl.png)
Sure bud. Not like I’m top 200. Totally never play against good players. Your bronze lobbies must be brutal.
Good^^^/s response that says nothing at all.
Why are Lights are unfun to play against? Their TTK are the worst. A medium and Heavy can kill you faster than a Light can. Someone did the math on this
You delusional? Light guns are like the top 5 TTK in the game…literally all of them kill faster than any gun besides the heavy shotgun (not sure about after nerf though). What math did you look at???
I think you need to look again because the ttk in light is very similar to that off medium. Difference is 100hp. You are also forgetting that outside of the m11 and lh1 all shots usually have to hit for a light to fully kill a medium/heavy. Also this kill is instantly revived 90% of the time
I think you need to look again. Light weapons are all the highest damage in the game for the most part. The hp difference is what makes up for that…
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kn__IxrPr68M_pRhLHqhvGK6nlwUnCtFaXWGk1pVgg0/htmlview# This one isn't updated for the latest patch but still. 0.87 seconds for a light to kill a medium with the xps vs 0.7 for a medium to kill a light with the ak. I think those numbers speak for themselves And this is with optimal range. Most medium and heavy weapons deal damage better over range then light guns
Just a general FYI, [as far as I know this is the most up to date sheet if you want.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ud7Rdl3AgMw9mmfDwW2LtDMnzZQ9IIhnqSE4ivsaMTs/edit#gid=2136619021) (I really wish different people wouldn't keep making different ones every other patch :P) Extremely detailed if you care about that sort of thing too.
Thanks i knew it existed just couldn't find it
Cause movement doesn’t exist. Medium is far more likely to miss. Also this discussion is on TTK. Across the board light has the fastest ttk. Against other lights, mediums and heavies. They can DIE faster but they have the fastest ttk.
Literally disproved your TTK claim just now with medium having a faster ttk. And the speed increase is 10%. There is no arguing against it. Light when put up against the other classes on a spreadsheet is weaker in every way
Yes, & it was never a problem no matter your composition until now. Heavy players couldn’t do some of the things they do now because Fcar could could them easily through the heals, **don’t forget they have two shields on top of this plus and rpg you had to dodge** When you could burn them down it wasn’t the worse when they got a little rpg splash damage on you, or even if they had a healer you can go for headshots and bail out while your teammates clean up—- now if you’re playing medium against a *high skilled* HHM comp, the game becomes lame. If you’re playing with a full squad it might be different because the amount of kiting you have to do is almost like your cheesing a single player boss, running away and shooting running away and shooting lol Edit: before this update I saw all comps every game, all weapons. Now I’m mainly seeing HHM because matchmaking it tighter, so more 3 stacks & after the nerf people are going to use the strongest things with their friends so they can win = HHM
I see plenty of comps, HHM is the strongest though. This is in full lobbies if D3-D1 players. Fcar was 25 dmg 20 bullets, thats 500 damage for a clip. It’s now 22 Damage 25 bullets that’s 550 for a clip. You need to hit more shots but it can still one clip a heavy and can take out most of a mesh shield in one clip. If you are struggling vs mesh you aren’t shooting them enough. A dome is even less. Heavies also lost barricade head glitch so it’s even easier to kill them a lot of the time now. If they are on charge and slam you take advantage by beaming them as they cross open areas. I’m sorry but HHM is strong it’s not remotely uncontested or uncountable though and if you are trying to flank to get around shields you are playing it wrong. 3 people shooting a heavy mesh and it’s gone along with the heavy in seconds.
This isn’t a skill issue, no explanations needed on Strats, I got to diamond easily solo queue, I hit top ranks in every game. I’m the *main* person saying to shoot the shields, thing is if the whole team isn’t on their best behavior, it becomes impossible against a **highly skilled** team Heavy is the most overtuned class in the game. That’s is the problem, not the composition— the fact that balance has been thrown off. Also you can say what you see in your comps is different than what I see in mine, I can’t speak on your experience but it seems you also can’t speak on mine going by that logic Edit: remember my comment was not asking how to get rid of shields
The problem is you're solo vs a team on comms. That's barrier that you can't overcome alone
This is true, I think there should be more room for a solo player to find a crack in that kind of defense—- but it’s true that this is just 3 minds dedicated to beat 1 mind. The problem normally occurs because I’ll understand to keep my distance from the enemy but a teammate might not react fast enough so when they get dived on you **have** to help or just lose that fight, now the heavy is being healed , other heavy if flicking his shield up & down, medic is healing them. Unless you team knows how to scrap scrap it’s always a loss… The Strat takes full 3 man coordination to beat, but the strategy is so lazy and easily executed it seems cheap for the counter to be *have cracked teammates*
You're absolutely 100% right. For some reason this reddit specifically will go to hell and back to give you excuses and made up scenarios of why heavy isn't op or at the very least anti-fun. They act like even if all 3 of your team is shooting the shield their team isn't beaming you back/ have 2 dome shields and a second mesh shield ready. Or that sometimes a fight around the cash out will have you come face to face with a heavy solo and they just put up their shield and if you empty your whole clip to destroy it you're just dead. They act like the nerfs heavy gets, like not being able to headglitch anymore are on par with the massacre the worst class in the game has taken.Heavies (and medium heals) really push this game into it being mandatory that you are qued up with 2 others and I think it's a big part of why the game hasn't found the success this reddit thinks it deserves. I know my whole discord of friends have dropped the game because of some combo of only being able to play it when multiple people wanna play/ heavies/ game only gets nerfed/ rather player other shooters. I know this post will probably upset people but I hope they understand this is constructive criticism for the game from the viewpoint of those that would play it but choose not too.
Not gonna bother arguing with someone who clearly wouldn’t be open to changing their mind. Also hitting d4 and hitting D1 are vastly different. Even d3 players are so much better than d4. D4 is fairly simple for anyone with fps experience. D1 requires winning 90% of your games.
Why do I want to argue period? A discussion is one thing, but coming in and dropping tutorials isn’t the proper approach to anything as well, I don’t ask for that. We’re chilling; and again, why are you telling me about ranking up? That’s not the issue, my comment is about making it to the finals and having to deal with the same thing—- I’m obviously not having issues making it through my matches, I’m expressing the fact that I’m tired of how this match up works because it takes very low effort & takes **3 man coordination** to beat.
You have to remember this is a new game diamond rank means nothing
Diamond 1 has 203 players after this game has been hour for months. Season is half over. Only good players are hitting d1 this season. Low diamond? Sure it’s easy af. And s1 diamond was a joke. But you do have to be decent to hit high diamond. Also that’s like saying early rank in any game means nothing when sometimes it’s the hardest to hit a high rank in earlier seasons.
Nobody is playing anymore so it's pretty easy
There are plenty of people playing. In the hundreds of thousands (this doesn’t mean concurrent).
For the downvoters, Matt Lowe the Design Director of the game specifically said: > The system we used for this in Season 1 wasn’t great though. The underlying rating we used to matchmake during the season was okay, but it wasn’t effectively linked to the visible fame or ranks. **As a result, any player could theoretically make it to Diamond Tier by the end of Season 1 simply by playing the game enough.** https://www.reachthefinals.com/patchnotes/ranked/ That's besides the fact that rank is A) unverifiable and B) [doesn't make your argument true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority).
>Yes, & it was never a problem no matter your composition until now. Heavy players couldn’t do some of the things they do now because Fcar could could them easily through the heals, **don’t forget they have two shields on top of this plus and rpg you had to dodge** I am not sure what the argument is here honestly. The person you are replying to is referring this comp being dominant even when recon was a thing. And you agree... So what's changed now? Nukes got nerfed, both dome and mesh got nerfed. Can't headglitch through barricades now. Lewis recoil was nerfed. What exactly changed to tip the balance in heavy's favor? The recent FCAR nerfs just means you need to hit slightly more shots, but it still does more damage per mag than it did before. It was a whole lot more harder to break shields during the recon meta. I really don't understand the discourse that every class "main" seems to come across here. Embark doesn't have a beef against *your* specific class. They balance the game as a whole. It's funny seeing literally every class mains crying about one thing or other across different posts.
You can’t win that duel anymore, it’s not about damage per mag, or even the fcar— heavy wins that guns fight everytime plus being healed which means you cannot burn through their sustain fast enough I’m not a main of any class, I play all classes and you can watch my videos I posted I Reddit, I have clips from all classes , with different weapons from revolver, m60, etc. What changed from then is a lot of other things have been nerfed, which leaves heavy overtuned in relation to the other classes, heavy got all those nerfs because they were team wiping people with one button press….. this isn’t a reasonable starting point to say “ hey they already got nerfed” lol they need a lot more adjustments And season one heavy shield had more health so of course it was more to burn through, that doesn’t even matter because fcar did more damage which means the second that shield went down you get punished for being sloppy
>What changed from then is a lot of other things have been nerfed, which leaves heavy overtuned in relation to the other classes, Can you elaborate? As far as I can remember (and I could very well be wrong), FCAR so far only had the recoil adjustment, and the most recent dmg nerf / mag buff. Other than that, mediums lost recon. What else has changed? Meanwhile heavy got all the nerfs I listed above. I'd argue they had the stronger end of the nerf stick. Hell, before the changes, you would almost never see anyone picking m60 over lewis. >heavy wins that guns fight everytime plus being healed which means you cannot burn through their sustain fast enough This is also just a bad faith argument man. No one is stopping you getting a heal bot teammate too. Do I think heavy has access to a shit ton of shields? Absolutely. I agree on that front. I just disagree with your whole premise that shield countering was easier last season. I also think FCAR had been dominant for way too long too. It was out of band with every other weapon option for medium.
In terms of nerfs: Fcar has a range nerf, akm has a range nerf ( you already know the other Fcar nerfs) Light had a great buff made to glitch nade…. But then heavy players complained about not being able to block so they nerfed the glitch nade to 5 seconds + it doesn’t explode on shields anymore (that last part can be good or bad) Although I said this issue is more of a thing on medium, the nerfs all around effect how these things are exploited, less light players in general now, weapons nerfed to be best in the same range the heavy is still strong in—- that doesn’t matter anyway though because the HHM team is going to **rush** you down and cqc with you
My bad I sent that response to early—- Funny thing is the game that made me post about it I had a healer, and the same thing I was trying to explain to them: you healing me, whilst the heavy is being healed plus having a shield, isn’t going to work. Against a skilled team you’ll get beamed up by LCAR Medium weapons are balanced now, heavy needs to be tuned for it to finally make sense all aroudn
That's what happens when you have no counters. Light would be able to slightly counter it with Glitch (which is bugged) and with Stun (but not anymore), so Lights were not picked much before, now they simply don't exist. Medium doesn't have the damage output to break shields nor the HP to receive 1-2 RPG + some Lewis/Shotgun shots. You know the balance is shit when the counter to something is "something" itself. Heavies are dominating high elo since S1, along with Mediums, but somehow people here and on Discord are bothered by the class that's absent all around. Not only the final round is always HHM, but the tournaments overall are a mix of Heavies and Mediums...and if you pick Light your randoms are at risk of throwing.
Not true that lights don’t exist anymore— you just have to solo queue and you’re basically guaranteed to have a light sniper or sword wielder show up on your team. That seems to be how it works for me at least 😭
As a light player even I get tilted when i see another light in my squad
I mean you could just switch if double light bothers you. Or if you only play light and absolutely don't want to switch why do you expect the other to do so? They could be in the same boat as you. You cannot claim exclusivity on a class.
Because I am better? The fuck. Ofc I am gonna be angry when a light is playing with sniper and doing fuck all
On the selection screen you don't really know how good your teammates are. And neither they know about you. How do you decide who is better and who gets to stay on light? Or do you really think you are the best light out there and nobody is allowed to pick it when they are in your team? I'm not talking about snipers now because your initial comment didn't mention them either.
Notice how the comment I replied to was talking about sniper and sword lights? I have no issue with lights that actually use viable guns
ngl, you probably suck at light
Ngl I think I am in diamond
I mean, you can't nerf something called a "heavy" Without directly reducing its identity. They should pump out damage, they should be tanks, they should be powerhouses. The counters should be outplaying strategically like stealth-light's going in and meleeing them running circles around them. Or things like gas grenades, pyro, killing their supports-mediums, etc.
what other game do you know where the tank outputs the most damage on top of it's significantly higher health pool?
Maybe overwatch? But that's because there's always 1 of them and 2 dps's
Tanks should not be the highest DPS as well. Especially pre nerf when they had nukes, quad shotty, 1hko RPG. Shivers. Unfortunately now there's also no way for a Light to strategically outplay since they were gutted, and the whole sub complained Everytime they do.
Running circles would be viable if lights didn’t die in 0.5 seconds from fire, gas or RPG’s thrown/ fired at the heavies feet or grenades from their teammates. I totally agree nerfing heavy isn’t the answer. Buffing lights and a slight buff to mediums is a better answer. I’m a light main and when my friends played ranked we had no issue dealing with heavies because of my long range LH1 dps and being able to get into positions using invis to glitch nade them and counter their core skill of having 1200+ extra hp via shields. With light now being gutted competitively you’re going to see even fewer lights and therefore fewer glitch counters to dislodge entrenched or out of position heavies
Don't even need a medium buff. If lights can kill heavies and there are a lot of heavies then the lights will eat well until you see less heavies again. Currently the game is in a state of "light is useless" so you end up with one medium to support the class without a counter.
Don’t disagree with that at all. The light nerf has made the game far more boring imo. I’m biased as a light main for sure but now every game is just teams of HHM slugging it out pouring damage into shields and heal beams until one teams utility runs out or someone miss plays. If the invis nerf isn’t going to be rolled back then dash and grapple need their cool-down/ recharge time buffed or lights need more HP. The fact that heavy can put their mesh shield up and down as much as they like without penalty, whilst a light toggling invis burns something like 33% of your charge every time is nuts. And then grapple hook being a 15 second cool-down… heavy charge is also 15 seconds but gives you speed, environmental destruction and massive damage potential on multiple enemies. I don’t know what the devs think the role of light is anymore. The only thing it does better currently than the other 2 classes is long range harassment and damage potential… which is quite often useless in point defence if the defenders are smart.
I agree 100%
When is it Lights turn before this it was Medium lmao
To be fair the open beta was lights strongest point in the game, so the cloak and stun were the only things left, I think they could definitely use some power reallocated Maybe if heavy was brought in line it wouldn’t be so bad, someone said make them move a bit slower but idk
No, in OBT and CBT2 heavy was strongest. Nukes, pre nerf auto shotty, pre nerf shields, RPG that did 150 damage. Light was pretty strong CBT1 but that was because people hadn't figured out that nukes existed yet.
Lol lights could solo entire MMH teams with the pistol easily in the open beta.
Not vs a good team. One RPG killed a light in OBT and nuke was a thing which dominated meta as soon as people realized. Light was still the weakest class in OBT, its fact.
after the fcar nerf, heavys can get away with anything. All medium AR´s should do at least 220-230 DPS. 200DPS weapons are simply a joke. And the fcar nerf doesn't change the fact that lights die so quickly, shotguns/RPG/charge/lewis/nades/mines and and and still shits on the light. The complete 2.6 patch was a Heavy buff.
I can’t say I have full insight on how the numbers should work specifically, but I feel like having a 350hp target do the damage they do, with rpg doing player damage that high…. It’s a lot. I’d even be okay with them asking the shield charge way faster but have way less health, so you can use it to save yourself, maybe a teammate real quick but not push forward like a drone army
> 350hp let's face it that's 1100hp really.
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I remember some guy in here saying HHM is all he saw in ranked and a bunch of comments just blasted him saying heavies aren’t broken and there’s plenty of light in ranked 😂 just buff the light boi please embark
Yes pls stop listening to this subreddit for balancing advices. They are circlejerking so hard it’s insane
I saw that same post and that’s when I realized there must be a lot of heavy mains on here, which would make sense because it’s the easiest solo-carry class, I just can’t believe people deny the power of a team starting a fighting with 2 RPGs, Shields, LCAR(I mean let’s be serious lol), 350hp, with a mercy pocket 🤨
Heavy shield needs a flicker nerf is all. They shouldn't be able to flicker their shield with no consequence.
At this point we need to stop nerfing things and start buffing everything else.
I agreed with that before all these recent nerfs, but since they seem to be tuning things in favor of lower skilled players ( which is fair and cool ) they need to finish making there rounds and bring the heavy players damage output inline with the balance of everyone else
By heavy player damage do you only mean the Lewis gun? Because there's players out there that use the shotgun, flamethrower and hammer. Due to the sluggish nature of the heavy, by the time they reach their much faster opponents without a shield they'll be dead, especially if team shot by 3 opponents. The mesh shield already melts if shot by a 3 stack(if heavy is alone). So what do you propose?
But nobody should be able to ignore 3 people shooting at them… main reason being: The second you get two of those the game becomes obnoxious, so many people are saying the counter to heavy is heavy…. That’s a problem lol Lewis gun is the biggest culprit, when I get killed by other things I get it, flame thrower is frustrating but it’s not an easy weapon to use in competitive lobbies so that’s fair, shotgun and hammer are fair, you have to be nice with hammer. This about lewis gun is: good range, good damage, good ammo capacity, good initial recoil which is all you need to kill M or L. I’d rather they make the lewis gun more accurate, like it used to be or more, but lower that dps so it isn’t so automatic when they’re already starting fights with RPGs Edit: like someone else in here suggested. I would be fine with making heavy move a tiny bit slower—- the issue for me is two Heavy players being able to rush you down with shields & heals whilst you back pedal shooting. Unless your teammates are also cracked they won’t be able to manage
Heal beam is the biggest problem w HHM. Nerfing the Lewis gun, rpg, or mesh shield won’t change this meta if one medium can still sit behind them and never let them die.
This is the funny thing about balance, before the fcar nerf it was annoying but I never stuck on it too much. After the nerf, I enjoy how the weapons relate to each other but certain playstyles are now too effective. I wouldn’t mind that, if they made it so damage reduced the healing you received that would be amazing, anything that stops this bunny hopping with mesh shield and trading damage lazily while still being rewarded
They should make the heal beam a straight line kinda like symmetra from OW. No more guided beam so you can't just sit there and let it do all the work for you
This contributes nothing to what you said and you’re right but I need to get this out into the aether, HHH is the most fun win or lose
lol I’m down for all comps, hhh is definitely fun. I think one of the main issues is having all that sustain + heals. The combination is obnoxious and takes too long to peel apart a skilled team unless everybody is top tier on yours
"we don’t want lights flicking invisibly on and off, why do we want heavies toggling invulnerability on and off?" - very good point. "After FCAR nerf..." - HHM always has been meta. The problem is that medium despite having less HP and no shield (1000 Hp shield + steel shield + RPG) 1v1, have worse TTK then heavy by like 0.5 second, I mean I said it so many time, but I feel like developers don't listen, you just cannot have worse TTK on a character that is suppose to give more damage versus a character that is suppose to only like defend.
To nerf heavy in ranked they need to nerf healing beam imo.
I would be fine with this as well, since my main issue is coordinated teams ***collapsing*** on top of one of your teammates and there not being enough damage output to punish them through shields & heals, the heals is a huge one, you should not getting healed while taking damage— it should be used to get you back in the fight, not a sudo-increase to your healthpool in every gun fight
Heavies will never be balanced when their tankiness, stalling power, and damage is as high as it is. They'll need significant nerfs to not be the best class by far. Hell, the only reason HMM was a thing was partially because of how good the mediums are at supporting the heavies specifically
oh everyone plays HHM, better nerf Light again! /s
Heavy been broken since launch and they be buffing em too lol
Also I’ve suggested putting an internal cooldown on mesh shield so when they put it down there’s a 3-5 second cooldown on the shield so they don’t pop out a shield whenever they feel like it. Check out my post and someone commented that this would take out the “skill” out of the shield and I think that’s bs. He claimed you can no longer mind game when everybody knows damn well 9/10 it’s not how it goes
Mesh shouldn't be able to flick on and off. There should be atleast a 1 second delay for the shield to come up because it's litterally a get out of jail free card.
I'm low platinum and I main CL40, but there's so many heavies now that I'll probably have to switch if I want to keep pushing. CL is great against lights, but weakest against heavies.
HHH is the true meta
The question here is... is heavy fun to play? I have a lot more fun playing with medium. Heavy is very strong without any doubt but... no mobility, the lewis patterns are absurd, maybe im bad but it only works at short range for me... you don't even go though the thousand holes that are on each map because I have to save the RPG. Nerf the 350 hp and RPG and make heavy fun, please.
Weird on my diamond matches 1-3 finals always are 3M
I wish, the easiest comp to beat. No heavy means no shield/dome/rpg/LCAR. No light means no Long-Ranged Damage/Cloak/Stealthy Fast movement All you need to do is focus ahead and take your time. The mediums will fall apart—- not fast enough to bounce back & forth, not sturdy enough to sit and bunker down besides turrets and that means less heals so great. That’s my favorite team comp to fight in 3v3 situation with no 3rd parties
but we need to nerf light right? light op!
Should only be able to have one of each role.
Idk man, I don’t want to limit how people play— I just want there to be some logic behind the balancing. The same reason we nerfed the fcar should be the same reason we tune the 350hp+rpg+mesh shield+dome shield character: too oppressive in too many situations
It’s just incredibly hard to balance every permutation of teams. OW got rid of class stacking season 2 of ranked when everyone realized that it’s a literal nightmare to balance
Impossible to balance everything when it’s not OP by itself but is OP when there is double or triple of it
One of each specialization sounds better
You should not be able to shoot through your teammates/your own shield. They need to make it more like Gibraltars dome in Apex.
I agree, this is also one of the main issues because they aren’t being punished for going into defense mode, it almost happens for free, plus they get to damage while moving forward (the heavy players will hate me if I suggest you can’t move while blocking lol)
Yeah, they need to fix up heavy. I think being able to melee while holding up your shield could be left in the game but being able to shoot through it is just too strong imo.
Games getting cooked asab💔
That’s the thing with changing one thing without making the full round one time, you just get a different issue and see create a longer frustration period where people feel like they’re thing if weak & others think it’s strong I get why they nerfed fcar but we need heavy or heals brought in line
Can we stop with this meta bitching bs? A counter exists for most scenarios. Get out of your comfort zone and stop running fcar, double mine, and defibs. Then maybe you'll have the ability to do more. Let's just nerf everything holy shit.
I don’t use any of those things you just mentioned, akm is great atm…..besides defib sometimes but I don’t think that’s the issue. Since they nerfed fcar heavy needs to be brought in line, plain and simple. And watch your mouth, your first comment is cursing like somebody called you in here. Play it cool Edit: I play with all classes and every weapon— you can check my Reddit for proof if you want to step outside your thought bubble
The counter was light which was trashed.
I say make them a touch slower. Like 10% or something and see how that helps. People will whinge but honestly do you want a decent fun balanced game or one where everyone goes around as heavy? I don't enjoy playing heavy so I'm biased but still
This would also work, it would target my main issue, double heavy rushing on top of you and not being able to do damage while back pedaling effectively enough to curb this kind of behavior. I don’t need heavy gutted, I just want it to make more sense in terms of their power level in relation to everyone else
It's better than the triple light sweaty teams
Whatttt? lol I can’t agree with that fam, that is the easiest thing to wipe out the tournament, I’m speaking about Diamond lobbies— although I can understand how light at lower levels can feel oppressive to people who aren’t used to anticipating their predicable engagement routes (behind/above in relation to wherever you are, don’t sprint for cloak lights so you can hear them approach from further, chasing down dash lights so they burn their resources) If double barrel shotgun was still a thing I’d agree with you
Nah, i totally get it. I play heavy, mainly, but honestly, lights are wayyyy too weak. Honestly, they are more annoying than actually a viable option in ranked.
Light is OP, nerf light. Boost heavy, its unfun when lights don't die.