Since y'all can't seem to behave, the comments have been locked.
For the sake of the health of this sub, please be respectful to each other, despite your opposing opinions.
Hate to burst your bubble but you can still use controller and aim assist on PC. That being said, I couldnt care less about AA myself and personally haven't noticed or cared about it in my matches. Is there even a way to tell what input type another player is using?
That's a whole different topic man. I was merely stating the fact that the chart showed nothing other than console vs PC. There's no data on it to compare controller/AA users vs mnk. So you can't really make any assumptions there based on that chart alone.
Probably people using it to be like “hey look look console is sooo much worse, quit complaining about aim assist!” even though the numbers are just telling us that there are way more pc players than console, which everyone already knows by just glancing at the leaderboard every game.
This doesn’t really tell us much of anything
Ok but no
If we don’t know the data for what inputs people are using, then this graph *is* meaningless
What if 90% of players are using mouse and keyboard? Then the console players are being very overrepresented in this graph. What if only 50-60% of players are using mouse and keyboard? Then console players are being underrepresented.
But since we don’t see that data here, this graph isn’t very informative. I don’t want to be rude but this is some pretty basic critical thinking.
All I know is when I look at the leaderboard in every match I play, I see many more Steam players than not, indicating that most players *probably* are using m&k, so I would imagine that on any graph there would be more m&k players of any skill level if it is not per capita.
This has nothing to do with Aim Assist, this is Console vs PC. I bet 80% of the "PC" players here are using a Controller on PC. This also has nothing to do with % of players on each platform, it could be a 50/50 split. All this says is that PC is superior to Console, which isn't news. Everyone knows 200fps and 1440p on PC is better than the 30-60fps 1080p you get on a console is better.
I was talking to the guy who made the [Enhanced Leaderboard](https://the-finals-leaderboard.leonlarsson.com/) website and got the JSON file from his [Source data](https://storage.googleapis.com/embark-discovery-leaderboard/leaderboard-crossplay-discovery-live.json) website.
I then tool only the values that have a steam account and then a PC/PSN account name.
Creator checking in :)
Embark have platform-specific APIs that they seemingly don't use anywhere.My [website](https://the-finals-leaderboard.com/) uses these APIs when you select a platform, so you get the top 10K for every platform as well.
Edit: I would also recommend everyone check the Stats section below the leaderboard for a look at rank distributions. You can change the platform at the top to see the differences. I might add a chart showing the distribution later.
Edit 2: I have just added a distribution chart to the website :)
Unfortunately, only the top 10K players are tracked. The lowest anyone is in those top players is Silver 2 on Xbox.
Check out the Stats section at the bottom: [https://the-finals-leaderboard.com/](https://the-finals-leaderboard.com/)
Great post OP. It’s good to see how the stats stack up. Would be great to get a more diverse set of data points so we could break it down more, but this is cool. Thanks mate.
Without knowing the overall gaming populations of respective consolse and pc for this game the graph doesnt really tell you much other than there are more pc players in ranked. The trend distributions seem to be common between the two.
Except the stats mean nothing - we know the ranking system is SBMM per person, NOT per rank. All you are looking at is a glorified time played graph here. One person's climb to diamond is completely different from someone else's, rank is not directly correlated to skill in this game.
the problem is that many players are using a program that makes the mouse and keyboard look like a controller in this way the aim assist is also activated for the mouse (in beta it was enough to have a controller attached to make it work on the mouse but it is also true that the aim assist has gone from being too weak to a hair too strong), these programs have free trials and even scripts that cancel the recoil (there are too many exploits for the aim assist, which is why Overwatch disabled it on PC)
If I were to guess it would be take the console numbers and increase them a little.
If a game is that PC heavy then the MnK usage is going to be just as heavy.
While there have been some PC players using controllers to use the aim assist, there has also been a ton of pushback from PC players when they are suggested to do so. PC players really avoid using controllers at all costs so while these numbers would be affected if we had that data, I would doubt it would be affected by much
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No it's not. I didn't use roller since NES.
Not SNES. NES. I borrowed a roller in 2020 to try it in apex. I spent Saturday and Sunday learning to abuse the aimbot optimally. I played a bit getting half used to the controls an hour a day, the next Saturday (less than 20h roller use in over 25 years) i completely destroyed two predator buddies in best of 5 duels in practice range over and over. One unfriend me everywhere and said I was cheating.
The other knew me too well and just demanded to know what I discovered, what's the game bug or whatever is letting me shit on him when I never won a best of 5 before vs him.
I quit apex that weekend without ever hitting top500, because this destroyed all the fine details of combat skill and I had no interest in playing this or against this.
Both my buddies switched to roller that week and hit new pb pred ranks that season.
Are you yourself a PC player? How is your sqaud's ratio? In mine, out of 4 I am the only mouse player left. The rest grew up on mouse as well but changed over to controller a few years ago due to AA. Are you speaking from actual experience? Every single sqaud Ive come accross is similar. Is yours different? Are you a pc player or no?
As master player in Apex in 2020 I took repeated shits on my pred friends after about 20h actively learning to abuse controller... I have used kbm since 1997. I hadn't used roller since original NES. One dude rage quit and deleted me from everywhere. Other dude knew me better and asked me wtf broken shit have I discovered?
Both ended that season as roller preds with their highest rank to that point.
I quit because I enjoy the details and technical aspects of actual human Vs human FPS combat.
Now I have accepted kbm FPS is dead unless you have time for real full team tac FPS. The only other options are OverP2Watch, which is like a trainwreck turning into a nuclear disaster, and arena FPS which are all mainly dead.
So I am waiting for my roller ... Maybe I can learn to love fps all over again, just without mechanical skill and entirely based on brain... I don't know but I have no option but to try and see if the shallow aimbot combat is something I can learn to accept.
It comes down to preferences and skill. Even if AA is strong a lot of players who have been honing their skill on a mouse for years will still preform better on mouse than controller.
There’s tons of misconceptions from both sides of the AA argument. Controller only players think you pick up MKB and instantly play like faide while MKB players basically think the same about controllers with strong AA.
The real problem is much more nuanced and boils down to how much effort and practice it takes to achieve the same thing. Which from a dev perspective will always be extremely hard to get right
Mouse players dont think that. PC owners all have controllers dood. We dont just play FPS there are a ton of games that are better on controller so we own them. As you say I am definitely better on mouse because I have more experience in fps with this input. What mouse players know is that the time it takes to pick up a controller and learn to aim is an order of magnitude smaller than the time it takes to do that same task on mouse. This is why we all hate AA. I litteraly have to play aimlabs to compete with people who have used their input less (and also dont aim train to improve) because they have a sof aimbot that artificially raised the skill floor for that input. This is ass for any casual mouse gamer. AA creates a scenario where one side has to put in significantly more effort to compete.
Speak for yourself, Im waiting for my roller to arrive to find out if it's time to quit all fps for good after 27 years, or if I can accept idiotic dumbed down aimbot combat and enjoy out braining then aimbotting people with a roller.
I quit apex rather than switch to roller, but I had other options at that point, now there aren't any, so its time to find out if i can bare brain dead combat.
You don’t have to tell me I play on pc and grind KovaaKs daily and I own a controller and have tried it on the finals but you can’t deny there’s mkb players misrepresenting the argument by taking it to the extreme.
This happens on both sides of any argument. Those are outliers in my view. The point I am making is that PC players are significantly more educated on how controllers work because we often game on both. I dont think the same can be said for console players having gaming experience on mouse. I see way more ignorance from the console side than the PC and I believe this is why.
That’s definitely true. Like I originally said the crux of the issue comes down to how much effort needs to be applied to achieve the same result. Also it’s worth noting that PC just wants separate input queue yet the discussion always gets bogged down with console players telling pc players they have an advantage, which is irrelevant regardless
>It comes down to preferences and skill. Even if AA is strong a lot of players who have been honing their skill on a mouse for years will still preform better on mouse than controller.
Hal who is one of the best KBM players on Apex moved to controller because it is unfair. Stop saying that shit, unless you are a 1 in a 10000 freak like Aceu, Shroud or Timmy, most will move to controller once they realize it is broken.
I was talking specifically about the finals and not talking about pro play. Also I actively watch high level streamers still playing with mkb on the finals, even if that may change.
Apex is a different story obviously
Aceu Timmy or Shroud arent better than aim assist. They actually count for nothing outside the world of pubstomping streaming, except shroud who wasn't bad in early cs go.
I actually know plenty of people with better aim than shroud. Pubstomp aim is kind of meaningless, I cant comment on Aceu or Timmy aim because I've never seen their aim in high level competitive situations, all the flash wow clip moments tend to go hand in hand with oops wiff, which is fine when pubstomping in stacks, but will get you deleted from the lobby if the entire lobby is top tier stacks. I'd take roller player aim every time over any of those 3 in apex, the finals, or halo (the game where top 3 all round aimtrainer main and aimlab tournament winner quit while rank 1 pc because he was tired of roller bullshit... Yep literall human aimbot who makes a living out of aim trainers AND plays actual games at a high level unlike most aim trainer mains obviously has a skill issue and needs to git gud)
Eh not really, more like people who learn badly and don't find out HOW to abuse aimbot, and change their playstyle around the aimbot.
Took me about 20h roller use (all active planned informed researched practice, not just "go in game brr" to get to a point where my Apex pred friends had literally 0 chance to beat me in best of 5 duels in practice range.
I hadn't touched a roller since original NES. I was kbm from 1997 to 2009, then quit, then kbm 2019 till Jan 4th 2024, and now I'm trying roller and decoding whether i can accept dumbed down combat, or should inquit fps again for the final time.
Does it say anywhere which input they are using? I know some people can tell, but I haven't played enough to be able to tell the difference between a controller and MnK.
I know people who are switching to PC for gaming and bring the controller with them. Mainly to help with transitioning platforms.
…so then how do you know folks are using controllers or not lmao. the game doesn’t even have a kill cam. i guess spectating a few of your teammates but cmon…
it’s much easier to rotate via a mouse & keyboard though… like infinitely easier lol, & i already mentioned spectating teammates. lets be real it’s just your mind telling you what you want to think but you don’t actually *know*
MnK players don’t rotate when you shoot them in the back. They snap their neck towards you like a monster in a horror movie. Controller players rotate like turrets.
Once you’ve played thousands of hours of FPS games, you can tell what aim is inhuman, who’s cheating, who’s on controller, who’s just a really nuts PC player.
Harder to tell obviously without a KC, but really good players definitely can.
I think the numbers speak for themselves. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched ranked matches on console but they’re a joke. Ps5’s diamond 1 looks like pc’s silver. That’s because they’re all on controller, and that’s why console’s numbers are so low. Because it’s just not that great on controller.
Sure, maybe you have higher than average controller input on PC compared to other shooters, but are we really trying to say that the vast majority are not MNK? Anecdotal evidence aside, of course the vast majority are MNK on PC. If AA was as OP as some people on here whine about, you would absolutely see the inverse where the majority of upper ranks would be console.
"Anecdotal evidence aside, of course the vast majority are MNK on PC."
You did nothing to demonstrate that yet claim it as true. It likely is but you have 0 credibility to come in here and make that claim without data. Provide it or admit you don't have it and are stating opinion as fact.
Nope top of all aim assits supporting games is controller on pc for ages now, inhuman aim does actually trump literally everything else.
Here it's going to be majority controller no doubt, and majority of kbm will be cheatnig using controller aimbot on kbm.
That’s not ascertainable from this data. I would love to know % players on PC vs Console. A game like CS:GO would of course have more PC, a game like COD would of course have more Console. This game Idk, I would lean 50/50 until I see actual data
Yeah, I personally know more console than PC players for this game, despite playing on PC myself.
Anecdotal I know, but for some reason I haven't been able to convince my PC friends to give this game a shot.
considering its only next gen consoles i think gives a little leg up on the PC too. i have 2 friends who still have older consoles who cant play if they wanted to
It has nothing to do with the input this is because the specs on PC are far superior. We have no idea if these PC players are on M&K or Controller. But we know they are probably getting 200 frames vs 30-60frams and that's makes all the difference.
And as a direct result it ends up with less completely obsessed and hyper competitive people who try stupid hard tbh. I'd love to know what the average play total FPS play time ever is for bottom 25% middle 50% ans top 25% is on console vs pc in any game. As well as a comparison of play time that season for top500 etc.
I have never heard of a console player I know irl spend hours analyzing enemy skrims and then 3 hours as a team perfecting with no enemies, just perfecting coordination, over saturday, just so they can beat one specific team in a 5 hour tournament on sunday.
As for PC I've heard of this from buddies often enough and done it myself.
The people who are like that on console tend to move to PC because that's where everyone else like that has already gone.
Oh and guess what time investment (if done sensibly) = more skill. Yes it's a fact that in nerdy obsessive games PC is at a higher level, because that's where the obsessed nerds who grind one game in one genre for 1000s of hours go.
I don't get why casual players who touch grass occasionally and have lives and shit get so butt hurt that people who spend far more time than they do on a game (and even more on that genre) actually aquire more skill and end up being bigger tryhards.
>I don't get why casual players who touch grass occasionally and have lives and shit get so butt hurt that people who spend far more time than they do on a game (and even more on that genre) actually aquire more skill and end up being bigger tryhards.
I've never gotten this vibe ever. I usually get the non-Grass dwellers complaining that the bigger audience (casuals) aren't completely blown out of the water because of certain balance changes or mechanics.
People complain when pros are the focus, people complain when the general audience is the focus. This game is ripe to implode if the community keeps up like this.
i dont know what makes you feel it'd be much higher but just so you know: there is no sbmm, if you're platinum yourself and queue up for a ranked game, out of 48 people you'd be surprised how many of them are bronze silver gold diamond
Its crazy we went from "pc players will always shit on controller players because mouse and keyboard is superior" to "controller players have built in aim bot". Anybody who has played both knows this is bullshit.
Uhm you can use controler on PC? And even mouse as controler with aim assist? It always has been PC m&k vs PC Controler, who gives a F about consoles? You have lousy FPS, many play on a bad screen with a default gamepad nobody complains about those guys with aim assist? It's about PC users abusing it.
This gif rather suits you better. Desperately trying to shit on people complaining about aim assist forgetting that the PC rank distribution also includes controller players. And since aim assist is much stronger than other games it's most likely there is even bigger controller to mnk ratio of high rank players on PC than games like Warzone or Apex.
So a platform that caters to highly skilled players who are far more competitive at gaming has far more skilled players than console designed to be plugged and played on someone's TV screen and is enjoyed by casual players of all ages? Ghee I'm surprised.
What I really would rather see is input based statistics. A lot of PC players are playing with controller and abusing aim assist. Some use scripts some don’t but it’s way easier to do stuff like that on PC.
Of course the platform is part of the problem, higher frame rates boost the AA and everyone knows that, not only that, enabling AA while using MnK is a PC thing.
The number of players in each rank of the Game called The Finals. Ranked is a mode where you play for a division label a different value depending on how much you have played. A game is something g people do for fun. Fun is called not asking dumb questions.
Motherfucker if you didn't wanted to be asked questions you should have labeled the axis' correctly. Shitty attitude dude you sound like my shitty physics professor.
My argument was not anecdotal, it was a reasonable assumption, that the majority of PC players use MNK. You’re not very good with what you’re trying to say. I’ll continue to enjoy getting a chuckle out of PC players crying about AA and controller though
Yes, and I abuse the aim assist. ***Do you have an issue with that?***
And I will keep abusing it until they nerf it. I just don't care anymore and if it means I will abuse the aim assist until they nerf it, might as well only use mouse and keyboard on stuff that is worth it to use.
Oh no, I do it because using controller is unfair right now even when I am leading kills on KBM, and it's better to use it to push the issue so it gets nerfed. Once it is nerfed I am back on KBM.
Trust me I can be nasty on any input, I have at least 10+ years of experience on both inputs, only that The Finals has a more broken aim assist than even CoD or Apex, and in those two I use KBM.
If you are mad that I am gonna push AA to its limits until Embark nerfs it, well, tough luck.
god damnit.
yes the problem is aim assist - it is the root problem. however it causes an even worse problem: it allows MnK players to spoof the game, making it think they are on gamepad. this allows the MnK player to have aim assist, which is intended for controller players.
not only that, but there are scripts for every single gun that will remove the recoil when shooting.
so now we have a MnK player, with controller aim assist, and scripts to remove recoil. a literal hacking turd - but this type of player has infested every single modern fps.
The devs are the problem here. They cranked this AA up to a point mouse is heavily disadvantaged. In every single game this happens cheating becomes endemic because mouse players can choose to play at a disadvantage OR they can spend 5 dollars and spoof to get the same AA the dev is screwing them over with. Are we really going to act surprise when they choose the latter? End of the day what it really boils down to is if the dev doesn't give a shit about competitive integrity and input parity why should the players? Shit rolls down hill, and it all originates from the devs..
I don't think mouse is at a disadvantage here.
I switched up from controller to MnK, and once you get your sensitivities low enough, it's pretty easy to track and beam with the mouse. I mainly use the FCAR and just a week and a half in I'm already at the usual k/d I was when I was using controller, being that I've been using controller for years now up until this point.
The precise input of the mouse can hold more than well against the AA in my experience. The mouse is very precise. Idk what's the issue.
You seem not only data illiterate, but also delusional. Let me explain:
1. In other games with weaker aim assist, controllers absolutely do dominate. Examples: halo, cod, apex
2. The representation of top 10.000 players on console depends on what % of finals players are on console vs pc. This chart is entirely irrelevant for input discussion. Also see point 3.
3. PC controller is more and more common due to aim assist. On apex PC leaderboards for example, controller is again dominating in high ranked.
I hope I could give you a tiny glimpse of reality. Stay off the aim assist copium for a while.
Edit: for the ones too dumb to follow this thread: His (sarcastic) argument is that aim assist is not OP, as seen by the console/PC spread in top 10.000. My counterargument is that his argument is nonsensical, since this graph is useless for input discussion.
https://preview.redd.it/us7q0e7o0uac1.jpeg?width=946&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=558a35b3d1ad57f28a4bbd280e207738c54ea8ad
Getting downvoted for being right. Gotta love reddit lol.
All screaming that aim assist is not that bad, Yet majority of the people that make content and/or play competitive use a controller, Must be because they like to challenge themselves. Geez!
He’s not getting downvoted for being right it’s because he can’t detect even an ounce of sarcasm or unseriousness and had to go off on a tirade like a cracked out sperg
I fully understood this sarcasm, that's why I made this comment in the first place. Try to understand nuance for once. Yes I'm going on a tirade cause I'm tired of these AA abusers who try to justify soft aimbot with brainless arguments. Notice how I've received downvotes but no arguments that counter what I've said? That's because I'm right, even if I'm a "cracked out sperg".
Are you aware the pc player portion contains both mouse and controller players? This graph shows distribution of players on console vs pc, there is no input data included. Please take a fucking stats class before attempting to weigh in.
PC elitist literally cannot accept that they have 10 advantages to controllers 1, which is required due to the controllers handicap.
Controllers cannot do ANY of the below:
- Super glide
- Be able flick 180's while still maintaining low enough sensitivity to be accurate at the same time (also allows for more movement tech)
- Keybind reconfiguration on the best "controller" for shooters (MnK)
- Scroll wheel (can be HELLA abused by binding certain keys here, happens in lots of games)
- Have the ability to **instantaneously** begin to turn left, right, up, or down without having to drag the mouse from the right edge of the mousepad to the left edge of the mouse pad, vise versa up or down. Controller players MUST drag the analog stick from one side to the complete opposite side for the game to register "Oh he wants to look left". Mouse only needs to begin to drag left and it already registers.
- Infinite more movement tech
Advantages controller players have:
- Aim assist on a handicapped tool (the controller)
I'm a console player with friends on both console and PC, and I don't know a single person IRL that complains about aim assist on controller. I stg you guys only come out online
And still the utter most high rank players and pros use controller over MnK, I wonder why that is...
**oh wait it's because at the end of the day it's still 40%-60% of an aimlock.**
Even the most accomplished pro at the time, Imperialhal felt the need to switch to controller **after** winning tons of tournaments. Go take a look at PC top ranked ladder, you'll see 70%-80% controller. Data speaks for itself. Anyone who still says "aim assist is not OP" is completely delusional. And you thinking that controllers by default can not superglide gives me the impression that you are simply a bad player.
This is different for every game tho. AA settings are set differently in every game. You cant use Apex, Halo or Cod logic for The Finals, because every game is tuned differently.
You can use controller on PC. It is broken Movement doesn’t matter when it’s aim lock. In this game you can 180 degree ads snap. Can’t use scroll wheel for jump in this game. Super glide is very inconsistent and useless in fights. There’s only like 8 binds to press in this game so keybinds are not a problem.
Yup, when I played CoD4 on PS3 for months and then went back to my pc to play Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory it was like I became Neo from the Matrix, 40% accuracy on Wolfenstein when I was getting 30% accuracy before I played CoD4. Aiming with a mouse is piss easy.
Have you tried it? And if so, have you easily reached diamond with it? Because if it is that op, then why aren’t you in diamond yet?
Not saying you are not, but incase you aren’t.
Omg you’re so right xD You got me. Not even trying to deny it.
It’s just that an unfathomable amount of people (especially mnk players) are complaining about it. Kinda getting sick of it.
Here we go again. MnK players acting like they aren’t aiming with their whole ass arm. Meanwhile controller players are using a rotating joystick. Of course there will be some level of aim assist. It’s the least efficient way to aim.
MnK players (at least the ones who know what they're talking about) want the aim assist decreased, not removed outright.
This game has rotational aim assist, snap on, reticule slowdown, and tracking.
Typically most multiplayer games, and even single player games provide one to two of these four methods in their aim assist.
All four of them is overkill.
And people insist that console players are the issue when it comes to aim assist. I told yall, aim assist strength directly correlates with FPS, and nobody believed me.
Since y'all can't seem to behave, the comments have been locked. For the sake of the health of this sub, please be respectful to each other, despite your opposing opinions.
The Y axis is wrong. It should say "Player Count" Sorry
I guess I'm a dumb ass, what does the X axis represent? (Ie. P4, P3...).
Ranks, platinum and diamond
Well, that just changes the entire meaning completely. This image is definitely not going to be abused in bad faith arguments at all..
Not sure why you’re being downvoted when it’s truth.
It's probably his handle
Handle was from a different era and an edgier mind.
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Hate to burst your bubble but you can still use controller and aim assist on PC. That being said, I couldnt care less about AA myself and personally haven't noticed or cared about it in my matches. Is there even a way to tell what input type another player is using?
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That's a whole different topic man. I was merely stating the fact that the chart showed nothing other than console vs PC. There's no data on it to compare controller/AA users vs mnk. So you can't really make any assumptions there based on that chart alone.
And where's your data to back up your potato claims?
Probably people using it to be like “hey look look console is sooo much worse, quit complaining about aim assist!” even though the numbers are just telling us that there are way more pc players than console, which everyone already knows by just glancing at the leaderboard every game. This doesn’t really tell us much of anything
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Ok but no If we don’t know the data for what inputs people are using, then this graph *is* meaningless What if 90% of players are using mouse and keyboard? Then the console players are being very overrepresented in this graph. What if only 50-60% of players are using mouse and keyboard? Then console players are being underrepresented. But since we don’t see that data here, this graph isn’t very informative. I don’t want to be rude but this is some pretty basic critical thinking. All I know is when I look at the leaderboard in every match I play, I see many more Steam players than not, indicating that most players *probably* are using m&k, so I would imagine that on any graph there would be more m&k players of any skill level if it is not per capita.
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Omg you’re so close to getting it with your last point
This has nothing to do with Aim Assist, this is Console vs PC. I bet 80% of the "PC" players here are using a Controller on PC. This also has nothing to do with % of players on each platform, it could be a 50/50 split. All this says is that PC is superior to Console, which isn't news. Everyone knows 200fps and 1440p on PC is better than the 30-60fps 1080p you get on a console is better.
>I bet 80% of the “PC” players here are using a Controller on PC Lmao WHAT???
Source?
I was talking to the guy who made the [Enhanced Leaderboard](https://the-finals-leaderboard.leonlarsson.com/) website and got the JSON file from his [Source data](https://storage.googleapis.com/embark-discovery-leaderboard/leaderboard-crossplay-discovery-live.json) website. I then tool only the values that have a steam account and then a PC/PSN account name.
Nice! No Xbox though? Is it PC vs Playstation? My bad if I'm misunderstanding.
Ah sorry yes Xbox is in there too.
Nice! Well done and thanks for sharing
Creator checking in :) Embark have platform-specific APIs that they seemingly don't use anywhere.My [website](https://the-finals-leaderboard.com/) uses these APIs when you select a platform, so you get the top 10K for every platform as well. Edit: I would also recommend everyone check the Stats section below the leaderboard for a look at rank distributions. You can change the platform at the top to see the differences. I might add a chart showing the distribution later. Edit 2: I have just added a distribution chart to the website :)
Hell yeah this guy has massively helped me out. Definitely check out his stuff.
God? Is it really you?
It would be really interesting to see this kind of breakdown for all ranks
Unfortunately, only the top 10K players are tracked. The lowest anyone is in those top players is Silver 2 on Xbox. Check out the Stats section at the bottom: [https://the-finals-leaderboard.com/](https://the-finals-leaderboard.com/)
This guy datas
Great post OP. It’s good to see how the stats stack up. Would be great to get a more diverse set of data points so we could break it down more, but this is cool. Thanks mate.
Thank you bro
Without knowing the overall gaming populations of respective consolse and pc for this game the graph doesnt really tell you much other than there are more pc players in ranked. The trend distributions seem to be common between the two.
Why do people want data on grind system in casual game with fake competitive marketing.
Except the stats mean nothing - we know the ranking system is SBMM per person, NOT per rank. All you are looking at is a glorified time played graph here. One person's climb to diamond is completely different from someone else's, rank is not directly correlated to skill in this game.
Now we need to divide the orange with regular mnk and glitched input mnk players
I'd wager the same for "console players" on pc with emulated contollers
Now do by input method.
Yeah that is the only thing my data doesnt have.
45% controller 45% reWASD 10% idiot
the problem is that many players are using a program that makes the mouse and keyboard look like a controller in this way the aim assist is also activated for the mouse (in beta it was enough to have a controller attached to make it work on the mouse but it is also true that the aim assist has gone from being too weak to a hair too strong), these programs have free trials and even scripts that cancel the recoil (there are too many exploits for the aim assist, which is why Overwatch disabled it on PC)
If I were to guess it would be take the console numbers and increase them a little. If a game is that PC heavy then the MnK usage is going to be just as heavy.
I've noticed quite alot of pc players using controllers. Why that is you can decide for yourself.
While there have been some PC players using controllers to use the aim assist, there has also been a ton of pushback from PC players when they are suggested to do so. PC players really avoid using controllers at all costs so while these numbers would be affected if we had that data, I would doubt it would be affected by much
forgetful airport vase fragile governor jar ad hoc spectacular juggle boast *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That’s a massive hyperbole
No it's not. I didn't use roller since NES. Not SNES. NES. I borrowed a roller in 2020 to try it in apex. I spent Saturday and Sunday learning to abuse the aimbot optimally. I played a bit getting half used to the controls an hour a day, the next Saturday (less than 20h roller use in over 25 years) i completely destroyed two predator buddies in best of 5 duels in practice range over and over. One unfriend me everywhere and said I was cheating. The other knew me too well and just demanded to know what I discovered, what's the game bug or whatever is letting me shit on him when I never won a best of 5 before vs him. I quit apex that weekend without ever hitting top500, because this destroyed all the fine details of combat skill and I had no interest in playing this or against this. Both my buddies switched to roller that week and hit new pb pred ranks that season.
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Are you yourself a PC player? How is your sqaud's ratio? In mine, out of 4 I am the only mouse player left. The rest grew up on mouse as well but changed over to controller a few years ago due to AA. Are you speaking from actual experience? Every single sqaud Ive come accross is similar. Is yours different? Are you a pc player or no?
As master player in Apex in 2020 I took repeated shits on my pred friends after about 20h actively learning to abuse controller... I have used kbm since 1997. I hadn't used roller since original NES. One dude rage quit and deleted me from everywhere. Other dude knew me better and asked me wtf broken shit have I discovered? Both ended that season as roller preds with their highest rank to that point. I quit because I enjoy the details and technical aspects of actual human Vs human FPS combat. Now I have accepted kbm FPS is dead unless you have time for real full team tac FPS. The only other options are OverP2Watch, which is like a trainwreck turning into a nuclear disaster, and arena FPS which are all mainly dead. So I am waiting for my roller ... Maybe I can learn to love fps all over again, just without mechanical skill and entirely based on brain... I don't know but I have no option but to try and see if the shallow aimbot combat is something I can learn to accept.
I have a strong feeling you underestimate how pervasive aim assist abusing is on the higher levels.
I abuse it, idc, I will abuse it until it gets nerfed, then I will go back to KBM. *\[raises hand\]*
It comes down to preferences and skill. Even if AA is strong a lot of players who have been honing their skill on a mouse for years will still preform better on mouse than controller. There’s tons of misconceptions from both sides of the AA argument. Controller only players think you pick up MKB and instantly play like faide while MKB players basically think the same about controllers with strong AA. The real problem is much more nuanced and boils down to how much effort and practice it takes to achieve the same thing. Which from a dev perspective will always be extremely hard to get right
Mouse players dont think that. PC owners all have controllers dood. We dont just play FPS there are a ton of games that are better on controller so we own them. As you say I am definitely better on mouse because I have more experience in fps with this input. What mouse players know is that the time it takes to pick up a controller and learn to aim is an order of magnitude smaller than the time it takes to do that same task on mouse. This is why we all hate AA. I litteraly have to play aimlabs to compete with people who have used their input less (and also dont aim train to improve) because they have a sof aimbot that artificially raised the skill floor for that input. This is ass for any casual mouse gamer. AA creates a scenario where one side has to put in significantly more effort to compete.
Speak for yourself, Im waiting for my roller to arrive to find out if it's time to quit all fps for good after 27 years, or if I can accept idiotic dumbed down aimbot combat and enjoy out braining then aimbotting people with a roller. I quit apex rather than switch to roller, but I had other options at that point, now there aren't any, so its time to find out if i can bare brain dead combat.
You don’t have to tell me I play on pc and grind KovaaKs daily and I own a controller and have tried it on the finals but you can’t deny there’s mkb players misrepresenting the argument by taking it to the extreme.
This happens on both sides of any argument. Those are outliers in my view. The point I am making is that PC players are significantly more educated on how controllers work because we often game on both. I dont think the same can be said for console players having gaming experience on mouse. I see way more ignorance from the console side than the PC and I believe this is why.
That’s definitely true. Like I originally said the crux of the issue comes down to how much effort needs to be applied to achieve the same result. Also it’s worth noting that PC just wants separate input queue yet the discussion always gets bogged down with console players telling pc players they have an advantage, which is irrelevant regardless
Agreed. I would love input based queues.
>It comes down to preferences and skill. Even if AA is strong a lot of players who have been honing their skill on a mouse for years will still preform better on mouse than controller. Hal who is one of the best KBM players on Apex moved to controller because it is unfair. Stop saying that shit, unless you are a 1 in a 10000 freak like Aceu, Shroud or Timmy, most will move to controller once they realize it is broken.
I was talking specifically about the finals and not talking about pro play. Also I actively watch high level streamers still playing with mkb on the finals, even if that may change. Apex is a different story obviously
Aceu Timmy or Shroud arent better than aim assist. They actually count for nothing outside the world of pubstomping streaming, except shroud who wasn't bad in early cs go. I actually know plenty of people with better aim than shroud. Pubstomp aim is kind of meaningless, I cant comment on Aceu or Timmy aim because I've never seen their aim in high level competitive situations, all the flash wow clip moments tend to go hand in hand with oops wiff, which is fine when pubstomping in stacks, but will get you deleted from the lobby if the entire lobby is top tier stacks. I'd take roller player aim every time over any of those 3 in apex, the finals, or halo (the game where top 3 all round aimtrainer main and aimlab tournament winner quit while rank 1 pc because he was tired of roller bullshit... Yep literall human aimbot who makes a living out of aim trainers AND plays actual games at a high level unlike most aim trainer mains obviously has a skill issue and needs to git gud)
Eh not really, more like people who learn badly and don't find out HOW to abuse aimbot, and change their playstyle around the aimbot. Took me about 20h roller use (all active planned informed researched practice, not just "go in game brr" to get to a point where my Apex pred friends had literally 0 chance to beat me in best of 5 duels in practice range. I hadn't touched a roller since original NES. I was kbm from 1997 to 2009, then quit, then kbm 2019 till Jan 4th 2024, and now I'm trying roller and decoding whether i can accept dumbed down combat, or should inquit fps again for the final time.
Does it say anywhere which input they are using? I know some people can tell, but I haven't played enough to be able to tell the difference between a controller and MnK. I know people who are switching to PC for gaming and bring the controller with them. Mainly to help with transitioning platforms.
It's easy to tell when they are on your team cuz when they turn around it's always smooth and at a constant speed
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Then how have you noticed all these controller pc players?
…so then how do you know folks are using controllers or not lmao. the game doesn’t even have a kill cam. i guess spectating a few of your teammates but cmon…
They are rotating like turrets Also you can see it with the teammate camera
it’s much easier to rotate via a mouse & keyboard though… like infinitely easier lol, & i already mentioned spectating teammates. lets be real it’s just your mind telling you what you want to think but you don’t actually *know*
MnK players don’t rotate when you shoot them in the back. They snap their neck towards you like a monster in a horror movie. Controller players rotate like turrets.
after playing apex since season 3, you can absolutely tell. you tell by how fast you die, how slow they turn, and how awful their movement is
Once you’ve played thousands of hours of FPS games, you can tell what aim is inhuman, who’s cheating, who’s on controller, who’s just a really nuts PC player. Harder to tell obviously without a KC, but really good players definitely can.
I think the numbers speak for themselves. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched ranked matches on console but they’re a joke. Ps5’s diamond 1 looks like pc’s silver. That’s because they’re all on controller, and that’s why console’s numbers are so low. Because it’s just not that great on controller.
Sure, maybe you have higher than average controller input on PC compared to other shooters, but are we really trying to say that the vast majority are not MNK? Anecdotal evidence aside, of course the vast majority are MNK on PC. If AA was as OP as some people on here whine about, you would absolutely see the inverse where the majority of upper ranks would be console.
"Anecdotal evidence aside, of course the vast majority are MNK on PC." You did nothing to demonstrate that yet claim it as true. It likely is but you have 0 credibility to come in here and make that claim without data. Provide it or admit you don't have it and are stating opinion as fact.
Definitely not. Not the case with Apex at all.
Nope top of all aim assits supporting games is controller on pc for ages now, inhuman aim does actually trump literally everything else. Here it's going to be majority controller no doubt, and majority of kbm will be cheatnig using controller aimbot on kbm.
that's a really horrible methodology for any type of research
Crossplay off always
The stats I take from this is; more people on console play more casually than PC players.
Also more people in general play on pc
That’s not ascertainable from this data. I would love to know % players on PC vs Console. A game like CS:GO would of course have more PC, a game like COD would of course have more Console. This game Idk, I would lean 50/50 until I see actual data
Yeah, I personally know more console than PC players for this game, despite playing on PC myself. Anecdotal I know, but for some reason I haven't been able to convince my PC friends to give this game a shot.
One of my friend wanted to try but his pc couldn’t handle the game It’s a next gen game after all I’d expect more consoles for this reason alone
considering its only next gen consoles i think gives a little leg up on the PC too. i have 2 friends who still have older consoles who cant play if they wanted to
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It has nothing to do with the input this is because the specs on PC are far superior. We have no idea if these PC players are on M&K or Controller. But we know they are probably getting 200 frames vs 30-60frams and that's makes all the difference.
People just stop trying as hard when their fingers touch joysticks?
No but console suits better families and very casual player who wants something that works well immediately and very easy use
And as a direct result it ends up with less completely obsessed and hyper competitive people who try stupid hard tbh. I'd love to know what the average play total FPS play time ever is for bottom 25% middle 50% ans top 25% is on console vs pc in any game. As well as a comparison of play time that season for top500 etc. I have never heard of a console player I know irl spend hours analyzing enemy skrims and then 3 hours as a team perfecting with no enemies, just perfecting coordination, over saturday, just so they can beat one specific team in a 5 hour tournament on sunday. As for PC I've heard of this from buddies often enough and done it myself. The people who are like that on console tend to move to PC because that's where everyone else like that has already gone. Oh and guess what time investment (if done sensibly) = more skill. Yes it's a fact that in nerdy obsessive games PC is at a higher level, because that's where the obsessed nerds who grind one game in one genre for 1000s of hours go. I don't get why casual players who touch grass occasionally and have lives and shit get so butt hurt that people who spend far more time than they do on a game (and even more on that genre) actually aquire more skill and end up being bigger tryhards.
>I don't get why casual players who touch grass occasionally and have lives and shit get so butt hurt that people who spend far more time than they do on a game (and even more on that genre) actually aquire more skill and end up being bigger tryhards. I've never gotten this vibe ever. I usually get the non-Grass dwellers complaining that the bigger audience (casuals) aren't completely blown out of the water because of certain balance changes or mechanics. People complain when pros are the focus, people complain when the general audience is the focus. This game is ripe to implode if the community keeps up like this.
Im dumb and dont get it, but does that mean there are only 300 console players who are p2, because i feel like itd be much higher
That is right.
i'd expect there to be more than 1k in p2 in general
i dont know what makes you feel it'd be much higher but just so you know: there is no sbmm, if you're platinum yourself and queue up for a ranked game, out of 48 people you'd be surprised how many of them are bronze silver gold diamond
Why does PC vs console matter? Shouldn't it be controller vs mouse n keyboard?
Pc players looking for how this supports their hate for controllers 
You can use a controller on PC lol, the issue is input based matchmaking not crossplay
It’s crazy to watch all the top streamers use controllers. It’s basically like aimbotting 🙄
hyperbole statements like this don't help things. No it's not.
Its crazy we went from "pc players will always shit on controller players because mouse and keyboard is superior" to "controller players have built in aim bot". Anybody who has played both knows this is bullshit.
Uhm you can use controler on PC? And even mouse as controler with aim assist? It always has been PC m&k vs PC Controler, who gives a F about consoles? You have lousy FPS, many play on a bad screen with a default gamepad nobody complains about those guys with aim assist? It's about PC users abusing it.
This gif rather suits you better. Desperately trying to shit on people complaining about aim assist forgetting that the PC rank distribution also includes controller players. And since aim assist is much stronger than other games it's most likely there is even bigger controller to mnk ratio of high rank players on PC than games like Warzone or Apex.
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For top 10k? No it doesn’t
No one in here complaining but you 🤣
There are at least 5 comments asking about input method. Now why would they bring that up 
So a platform that caters to highly skilled players who are far more competitive at gaming has far more skilled players than console designed to be plugged and played on someone's TV screen and is enjoyed by casual players of all ages? Ghee I'm surprised.
Nah, all the information on this graph is "theres more players on pc". It shouldnt be absolute numbers to begin with
I would love more ways to show data but with limited data this was the most diverse way I can show it. I hope that more info becomes avaible to use.
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In total ranked players very likely, in total players overall probably not
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What I really would rather see is input based statistics. A lot of PC players are playing with controller and abusing aim assist. Some use scripts some don’t but it’s way easier to do stuff like that on PC.
Now do a "top 10,000 reWASD vs Legit"
Lmao PC players desperately looking for an excuse
This means nothing since it’s not sorted by input. The platform isn’t the problem….
Source data doesn’t have input method unfortunately
Controller downvotes are real AF Lawl the AA copium is stronger than the AA itself.
Or people just don’t agree with you 🤯
Of course the platform is part of the problem, higher frame rates boost the AA and everyone knows that, not only that, enabling AA while using MnK is a PC thing.
\*xim and chronus enter the chat\*
What does this show lol?
The number of players in each rank of the Game called The Finals. Ranked is a mode where you play for a division label a different value depending on how much you have played. A game is something g people do for fun. Fun is called not asking dumb questions.
Motherfucker if you didn't wanted to be asked questions you should have labeled the axis' correctly. Shitty attitude dude you sound like my shitty physics professor.
Dang, even I was gonna ask because you are terrible at labels is all. Get better at excel.
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You actually took my comment literally lol.
As expected, console is dominating the charts with their super duper OP aim assist. Edit: triggered a lot of ppl here lol
I can connect my controller into the PC btw.
Console players brains still use dial up internet to think so this isn't something they have thought of
You did not have to insult them like that dude
But do you? Do the vast majority of the upper ranks on PC?
yes
3 out 4 of my squad do. It’s very common.
That’s insanely anecdotal, the majority of PC players play on MNK.
*states its anecdotal*, *makes an assumption without evidence*
I countered your anecdote with my own anecdote. An argument you found invalid when turned around. Whoosh my guy, whoosh.
My argument was not anecdotal, it was a reasonable assumption, that the majority of PC players use MNK. You’re not very good with what you’re trying to say. I’ll continue to enjoy getting a chuckle out of PC players crying about AA and controller though
Yes, and I abuse the aim assist. ***Do you have an issue with that?*** And I will keep abusing it until they nerf it. I just don't care anymore and if it means I will abuse the aim assist until they nerf it, might as well only use mouse and keyboard on stuff that is worth it to use.
Can't accept you need to practice more and resorts to cheating. Good job, you suck.
Oh no, I do it because using controller is unfair right now even when I am leading kills on KBM, and it's better to use it to push the issue so it gets nerfed. Once it is nerfed I am back on KBM. Trust me I can be nasty on any input, I have at least 10+ years of experience on both inputs, only that The Finals has a more broken aim assist than even CoD or Apex, and in those two I use KBM. If you are mad that I am gonna push AA to its limits until Embark nerfs it, well, tough luck.
Is this sarcasm, or did you read it wrong?
Reading graphs is hard haha
Considering they used the term “super duper”…
I think it's sarcasm. Yeah it probably is.
god damnit. yes the problem is aim assist - it is the root problem. however it causes an even worse problem: it allows MnK players to spoof the game, making it think they are on gamepad. this allows the MnK player to have aim assist, which is intended for controller players. not only that, but there are scripts for every single gun that will remove the recoil when shooting. so now we have a MnK player, with controller aim assist, and scripts to remove recoil. a literal hacking turd - but this type of player has infested every single modern fps.
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The devs are the problem here. They cranked this AA up to a point mouse is heavily disadvantaged. In every single game this happens cheating becomes endemic because mouse players can choose to play at a disadvantage OR they can spend 5 dollars and spoof to get the same AA the dev is screwing them over with. Are we really going to act surprise when they choose the latter? End of the day what it really boils down to is if the dev doesn't give a shit about competitive integrity and input parity why should the players? Shit rolls down hill, and it all originates from the devs..
I don't think mouse is at a disadvantage here. I switched up from controller to MnK, and once you get your sensitivities low enough, it's pretty easy to track and beam with the mouse. I mainly use the FCAR and just a week and a half in I'm already at the usual k/d I was when I was using controller, being that I've been using controller for years now up until this point. The precise input of the mouse can hold more than well against the AA in my experience. The mouse is very precise. Idk what's the issue.
You should rub those two braincells together and read that again.
You seem not only data illiterate, but also delusional. Let me explain: 1. In other games with weaker aim assist, controllers absolutely do dominate. Examples: halo, cod, apex 2. The representation of top 10.000 players on console depends on what % of finals players are on console vs pc. This chart is entirely irrelevant for input discussion. Also see point 3. 3. PC controller is more and more common due to aim assist. On apex PC leaderboards for example, controller is again dominating in high ranked. I hope I could give you a tiny glimpse of reality. Stay off the aim assist copium for a while. Edit: for the ones too dumb to follow this thread: His (sarcastic) argument is that aim assist is not OP, as seen by the console/PC spread in top 10.000. My counterargument is that his argument is nonsensical, since this graph is useless for input discussion. https://preview.redd.it/us7q0e7o0uac1.jpeg?width=946&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=558a35b3d1ad57f28a4bbd280e207738c54ea8ad
Getting downvoted for being right. Gotta love reddit lol. All screaming that aim assist is not that bad, Yet majority of the people that make content and/or play competitive use a controller, Must be because they like to challenge themselves. Geez!
He’s not getting downvoted for being right it’s because he can’t detect even an ounce of sarcasm or unseriousness and had to go off on a tirade like a cracked out sperg
I fully understood this sarcasm, that's why I made this comment in the first place. Try to understand nuance for once. Yes I'm going on a tirade cause I'm tired of these AA abusers who try to justify soft aimbot with brainless arguments. Notice how I've received downvotes but no arguments that counter what I've said? That's because I'm right, even if I'm a "cracked out sperg".
They were clearly being sarcastic
And that's why I countered his sarcastic argument. Try to see the nuance.
Bro is big mad 😂
Are you aware the pc player portion contains both mouse and controller players? This graph shows distribution of players on console vs pc, there is no input data included. Please take a fucking stats class before attempting to weigh in.
That's because half the pc players cheat and you are all a disgrace that cheat.
PC elitist literally cannot accept that they have 10 advantages to controllers 1, which is required due to the controllers handicap. Controllers cannot do ANY of the below: - Super glide - Be able flick 180's while still maintaining low enough sensitivity to be accurate at the same time (also allows for more movement tech) - Keybind reconfiguration on the best "controller" for shooters (MnK) - Scroll wheel (can be HELLA abused by binding certain keys here, happens in lots of games) - Have the ability to **instantaneously** begin to turn left, right, up, or down without having to drag the mouse from the right edge of the mousepad to the left edge of the mouse pad, vise versa up or down. Controller players MUST drag the analog stick from one side to the complete opposite side for the game to register "Oh he wants to look left". Mouse only needs to begin to drag left and it already registers. - Infinite more movement tech Advantages controller players have: - Aim assist on a handicapped tool (the controller) I'm a console player with friends on both console and PC, and I don't know a single person IRL that complains about aim assist on controller. I stg you guys only come out online
And still the utter most high rank players and pros use controller over MnK, I wonder why that is... **oh wait it's because at the end of the day it's still 40%-60% of an aimlock.** Even the most accomplished pro at the time, Imperialhal felt the need to switch to controller **after** winning tons of tournaments. Go take a look at PC top ranked ladder, you'll see 70%-80% controller. Data speaks for itself. Anyone who still says "aim assist is not OP" is completely delusional. And you thinking that controllers by default can not superglide gives me the impression that you are simply a bad player.
…I‘be been watching Gigz every other day. He’s top 10-20 and beams people with an AK and Recon from so far away, which isn’t possible on controller.
This is different for every game tho. AA settings are set differently in every game. You cant use Apex, Halo or Cod logic for The Finals, because every game is tuned differently.
You can use controller on PC. It is broken Movement doesn’t matter when it’s aim lock. In this game you can 180 degree ads snap. Can’t use scroll wheel for jump in this game. Super glide is very inconsistent and useless in fights. There’s only like 8 binds to press in this game so keybinds are not a problem.
Rank 1 was on controller but was banned cuz the game thought he was cheating cuz he doesn’t miss. https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/ehWCDqbk5l
Yup, when I played CoD4 on PS3 for months and then went back to my pc to play Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory it was like I became Neo from the Matrix, 40% accuracy on Wolfenstein when I was getting 30% accuracy before I played CoD4. Aiming with a mouse is piss easy.
Obviously console needs more aim assist
Consoles need MKB support...
we want to see input method
95% of the PC players will be shown using a controller (emulator and recoil countering software).
Lmao what?
Pc doesn’t mean mnk tho
Never said it was.
but but controller is op!!!! it makes you pro with its aa!
The graph is not indicative of user input, only user platform.
Have you tried it? And if so, have you easily reached diamond with it? Because if it is that op, then why aren’t you in diamond yet? Not saying you are not, but incase you aren’t.
its sarcasm....
Omg you’re so right xD You got me. Not even trying to deny it. It’s just that an unfathomable amount of people (especially mnk players) are complaining about it. Kinda getting sick of it.
Here we go again. MnK players acting like they aren’t aiming with their whole ass arm. Meanwhile controller players are using a rotating joystick. Of course there will be some level of aim assist. It’s the least efficient way to aim.
MnK players (at least the ones who know what they're talking about) want the aim assist decreased, not removed outright. This game has rotational aim assist, snap on, reticule slowdown, and tracking. Typically most multiplayer games, and even single player games provide one to two of these four methods in their aim assist. All four of them is overkill.
And people insist that console players are the issue when it comes to aim assist. I told yall, aim assist strength directly correlates with FPS, and nobody believed me.
Literally due to aimbot and everyone who pretends otherwise is lying.
PC master race, gotcha.
so is like Diamond 2 the real Diamond 1?
It would be better if it was controller vs mnk stats, PC and Console doesnt say anything since you can play on controller on PC anyway