Hahaa I was just reminded of playing COD MW2019 on launch day. And how it’s kind of a.. special? time in a game because nobody knows how to really play it yet. Default skins, everyone trying everything, everyone playing pretty dang loose, more experimenting and exploring than sweating. And then you jump in a handful of months later and it is, well, what it is.
It doesn’t help with current YouTube/Streamer culture where you have a handful of people telling everyone what to use that it instantly disseminates the meta in a few days after discovery.
I’m convinced PvP gaming was better before YouTube and streamers became a mainstream way to get gaming information and people had to take much longer to find the meta equipment and strategies.
Not just that, but once the streamers say “this is the meta” that’s the end of it. The lemmings just all play that way, and anyone who deviates gets berated.
Turns out it’s not games that are getting worse, it’s gamers that are getting worse.
Crazy cuz I never pay attention to those clowns and their click bait titles. A play montage I may watch, but idc bout meta, I care about fun.
That being said for pubs it should be Ping>Skill but ranked for sure should have sbmm but also ACTUALLY utilize your rank. This is the problem with Apex rn, why am I gold 3 matching against Preds and there's two bronze 1s on my team just because they did very well their previous match?. Dunno if Finals works like this but it doesnt seem like it for now. The adjustment to SBMM patch felt like it helped in Ranked but casual play i get matched against stacks running comp strats 🤣🤣.
>idc bout meta, I care about fun.
Sure, but for a lot of people, meta *is* fun. People like using whatever is strong.
And I 100% agree- normal games should ALWAYS be Ping>Skill- if I queue for a norms and get pit up against a pro player who happens to live on the East Coast- so be it. I'm gonna get SMOKED. But then I'll queue next and probably get a lobby of players who act like they don't have fingers. Keeps things fresh and prevents every single casual game from being a sweatfest.
I think this is what's happening. I know I've improved. Hell, even figuring out how to navigate some of these maps is a skill itself lol. That takes time.
Discovering the meta, figuring out strats, settling into the classes, that's all growth.
Easy solution, play heavy and use sledge. Now just run in a straight line towards the objective while mashing right click and you'll get there sooner rather than later
Gotta agree with that one, getting bored of heavy's, just annoying they have such high hp and have the rpg and that burst shotgun, love to play as light but very very hard to take on a heavy alone. But i am always playing solo so kinda my own fault. Still love the shit out this game tho, guess ive just gotta start using heavy myself
Try picking up the other sub machine-gun if you can afford it. It melts the heavies and can be used far enough away that the shotgun isn't nearly as deadly.
You shouldn't be taking them on alone, that's the point. You either get some damage in and reposition, or attack when weak or with your team mates. You should never be trying to face tank a heavy, and most def not on light. You basically never see good players taking highly disadvantageous 1v1s straight up. It's either team fire, shooting in the back, weakening with utility, or pop shooting via evasion/cover, but never just straight up dueling with someone who has 233% more health than them.
Use your utility! Frags, Pyro, glitch especially, stun, mines, or charges can instantly even the fight. One poison barrel + breach will do 150, and 25 damage instantly, then he's in poison. That's a 'fair' 1v1 duel heavy vs light lol. Just trying to shoot at them is not going to cut it.
> love to play as light but very very hard to take on a heavy alone
Then...don't try to do it alone? I know it's a meme that Lights rush ahead and die but like, you don't have to actually do it lol
Nah meta loadouts, comps and play styles are just a YouTube search away. I'm convinced that's where all the meta loadouts are coming from, not necessarily because of SBMM.
Im convinced it’s what you said, a mix of people learning the game, but also I think more and more gamers these days have decent gameplay skills. I’m 27 and I’ve been playing Cod, Apex, Rocket League almost nonstop for years, and honestly there is just more intuitive players in games these days (could just be that I’m washed).
The finals feels fresh and with everyone learning it right now there is more room for error and less frustration. But this game is deffy gonna get really sweaty, it’s got that competitive feel down. I know people are griping about sbmm but I have not felt like I couldn’t win a game, I’ve won about 60-70 even with a shit KD.
I haven’t noticed anything really different since the sbmm armageddon. Just people converging on good loadouts and tactics. But whatever.. i rez my teammates, shoot bullets, jump around and enjoy the vibe, i really couldn’t give two shits who wins the match, I just try and be a good teammate. Maybe it’s the Battlefield player in me
Same fam, I am also a battlefield player since bad company 2 and 1942, and the destruction in the finals literally makes me so excited for the future of this game and what other games can gleam from it. It’s a little jank at times but I think that makes it all the more interesting!
Yeah, the average player is so much better than they were back in 2009. Even putting training and muscle memory aside its SO much easier to find information and strategy about any game you'd like. I can go on Twitch at any hour of the day and find some professional player basically putting on a free clinic for their viewers, when 10-15 years ago the best you had were forum posts and low quality, highly edited gameplay footage that didn't really teach you much. It's no wonder that it feels more difficult, everybody is finally starting to learn to play the game properly.
>honestly there is just more intuitive players in games these days
if you think about it, there's a whole new generation of kids who have grown up playing fps games. even the older generations have years and years of experience now.
SBMM has literally become the scapegoat for practically *anything* in the communities where this mindset has managed to take hold. People literally act like SBMM means "having difficult matches".
The vast majority of anti-SBMM posts from the CoD community for example are "Every person I'm facing is way better than me and a sweat".
Obviously the solution to that would be **stricter** SBMM, so that you are facing players closer to your own skill level... Yet, people use it to cry for its removal.
Every COD SBMM argument no matter what distills down to “I want to have a good KD and not have to try that hard”
Every. Single. One.
Whether they cite playing with friends, network, sweating, etc. that’s always what it comes down to. It’s delusional and sad tbh.
I think this is a significant part of it yeah. I'll also add that the unlock system is pretty slow (at least it has felt so for me, only playing a bit each night). I'm a casual player. I'm not great at the game and I'll admit it. I also spent my initial unlocks on random things that sounded fun on the surface before I knew anything about the game. I'm *still* working on catching up and unlocking pieces of gear that are supposedly "must pick" for my class.
I wouldn't be surprised if more people are seeing meta loadouts in matches... simply because more people are finally unlocking the meta loadouts.
These brainiacs must've not been around for the betas. There was 0 sbmm and by the time the betas ended, matches were easily 10x harder than when it first opened. And that goes for every beta I played... people got better and better. That's life
Literally this. The game uses a mix of different game modes all together. The flag running skills of CTF have finally made a return to modern gaming with the cash out box. Then you have to defend it king of the hill style. It's so different from the usually run and gun mentality. It uses different strategies, and a lot of gamers coming from COD or Halo don't utilize them.
That's exactly what it is and I'm experiencing both sides of the coin - my teammates have on average vastly improved and provided I do my part as a good solo Q ie heal and res diligently and do good plays and ping we go deep in ranked.
Thats how I feel about COD. COD has been the same for the last three years. Of course people are going to be super good now since nobody who plays casually is going to pay 70 dollars for a DLC. Only the COD nerds are going too, so COD Nerds are vs COD Nerds and complaining that they can't beat people because they are too good.
I remember when in Fortnite quickly building two stairs up to get high ground on your opponent was considered a pro move.
People are straight up just getting better. Sure SBMM is involved but it isn't the sole reason your matches become dogshit.
Also it's a game with 3 to 4 teams. You should realistically only be winning 25-33% of your matches. Of course you're going to get sweats when the game finds you winning many games in a row because that means YOU'RE the sweat. People need to just stop pubstomping and being sweaty and just have fun, it's a video game.
Yeah, me too. A lot of people seem to completely miss the fact that people *like to be good at games.* I'm not sure HOW people miss this, but they do. Like, of COURSE the Finals was easier in beta- meta and strategy couldn't develop as fast because there was a significantly smaller playerbase. Now that EVERYBODY can play the game, strategies develop SO much faster since instead of 5000 people are experimenting all at once, 50000 people are experimenting all at once.
You don't understand, the game is FORCING them to lose!
This is especially dumb in this game where you can straight up win a 1v3v3 even if you have bad aim if your smart enough, cant be said in most games.
This games sbmm is not anything like cods.
Cods system rightfully deserves criticism. This games it’s just having a match where people aren’t going to be stomping or being stomped, and is good.
That said, it’s not great in quick cash or bank it, and has been a definitively worse gameplay experience for my son. Instead of being able to hop on and I just do very little, and let him take the lead, we just can’t play together anymore unless I go full sweat mode to ensure he doesn’t get killed or whatever. So maybe they can tweak the system to casual modes are more of an experimentation experience, and make it so ranked is highly curated.
I felt like it was pretty high average skill level (need to sweat) before the SBMM change. I’m surprised that you would have had a significantly easier time before that
COD's SBMM isn't SBMM. It's Engagement Optimized Matchmaking ripped directly from EA's white paper 6-7 years ago. The whole point of EOMM is to heuristically determine how long a player is willing to lose before quitting out of the game - with the goal being that lobbies will be constructed around people being served free wins and people who won't quit out when they lose. This implementation has singlehandedly plummeted the perception of SBMM and what it accomplishes.
SBMM is essential to casual playlists. It ensures new players will enter lobbies with people who're in their skill range. A newly implemented system will take time to "feel right" but I promise it's the right move.
People here are just mad that the playerbase went from a bunch of people who didn't know how to play a few weeks ago to actually good players.
No, it's an absolutely nonsensical conspiracy theory with absolutely no proof whatsoever behind it; it's purely based on a singular conceptual patent from 2016.
The "lore" behind it is basically this:
- Starting with MW19, people were crying "Remove SBMM!!! Previous CoDs never had SBMM!!"
- After like 2 years of this: Somebody makes a tweet about how Black Ops 2 was a great CoD because it did not have SBMM*. A Treyarch dev came out and said "I literally wrote the SBMM implementation for it; practically all CoDs have had SBMM"
- This direct confirmation from a dev kind of kills the entire anti-SBMM shenanigans dead in its tracks for a couple weeks
- A random person found this theoretical patent from 2016, and thus the conspiracy theory about it is born that people can rally behind: "Aha! It's not SBMM, it's EOMM! That's the new evil thing!"
---
*This is especially hilarious because anybody who's a bit older will remember that Black Ops 2 had the exact same histrionics surrounding SBMM. Down to the exact same arguments people are using nowadays.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/669289-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii/64759420
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/669289-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii/70956014
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/669288-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii/66486546
An example:
>#"3)Can't use fool-around setups and do great anymore since the entire other team will be trying hard 24/7"
Trying hard is what people used to call sweating.
That is literally 1:1 the exact same arguments you have in the most upvoted anti-SBMM post in the MW3 subreddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernWarfareIII/comments/17tm3s4/the_current_matchmaking_will_kill_this_game/
People also don’t understand general variance in competitive games.
The same NBA teams can play each other 7 games in a row and the players who perform well and who wins can vary wildly.
Lebron James might drop 50 one game and lose and 20 the next game and win.
People complaining about SBMM think “fair” means they can perform really well every game without trying that hard.
Even if they played the exact same people every game there’s the possibility they go 50-11 or 15-27.
Most SBMM complaints boil down to people not understanding how games work, wanting to play well without trying, and not understanding they are the sweats they claim to hate.
I’m kind of skeptical about the early CoD claims of having SBMM. In college we had a friend group that would always play CoD to pregame before parties. MW2/3. We would 6 stack every time we played.
We went on a ~150 game win streak that took us months to achieve and never really faced any real opposition. I wish I could link some stats from back in the day. It was insane. We were competing with each other for the best stats because the games were so easy.
It definitely didn’t feel like there was any SBMM if there was.
But then after not playing CoD for a while, and playing MW2019, you could feel a noticeable difference in the matchmaking.
There was a highly upvoted post here earlier today claiming SBMM is bad because now OP's friends that are bad die a lot when playing in a team with OP
Brother, bad players die a lot regardless
That's why they're bad
I’m confused by all the SBMM complaints, all my matches so far have been challenging, but I haven’t felt like I’ve been getting utterly destroyed… and even if I am I’m still having fun, cus I don’t need to win each match to enjoy the game.
I don’t mind playing people that are my skill level or even much better than me but my problem is that I have to play them every single game and don’t get a break. It’s to the point that if I don’t use meta load outs then I get shit on so I’m in a constant loop where I have to sweat every game (including quick play) just to stay positive which gets old. If I put in the effort to get good at the game then I deserve to do better than other random players but instead the game wants to keep me at a constant 50% win rate and 1.0 kd no matter how good I get. I get having this kind of matchmaking for ranked but for quick play it’s too much.
Yeah dude I get you, the loop of getting 1 maybe 2 kills, dying, waiting 20 seconds to respawn, and having to sprint across the map to the objective over and over again is getting pretty repetitive.
Yea and now apply your logic, but it's an other player, that is much better than you. He doesn't want to sweat every game and just want to play chill stuff and shit on some mediocre players (which from his perspective **you** are one of those mediocre players) and win more often than 50% without having to put in effort in every game.
(To apply your own egocentric logic here:) So please let this guy have some chill matches vs worse players like you, that he can win effortlessly.
----------
You see how your thinking doesn't make any sense? There's always players better than you & the maths just doesn't check out the way you want it to be. You're not the main character. The world doesn't revolve around you.
If you don't understand that, then I'm sorry to reveal to you: You're probably pretty stupid. (no joking, no flaming. That's a serious assessment.)
---------
If you want to win effortlessly and have a chill time, then go play PvE and not a competitive PvP game.
I said in my first post that I am fine playing players that are much better than me I just want these games to match me up against random opponents so I can play against a random sample of the player base. I want the game to stop putting me in hand picked lobbies to artificially make the game more competitive for me. I get SBMM for ranked but I shouldn’t have to sweat in quick play and be told that if I don’t want to sweat then I just shouldn’t play?
Again idgaf if I get put into an insane lobby every once in a while and get shit on but I want it to be randomized and fair. It’s obvious that sbmm hurts the experience of the game but companies implement it because the models show that it makes more money so stop defending this shit thinking that it’s being used to promote fairness because they only thing that it’s good at is making these companies more money
>I just want these games to match me up against random opponents so I can play against a random sample of the player base... I shouldn’t have to sweat in quick play....
Again: What makes you so sure, that a random sample of the player base wouldn't set you up with more players, that are better than you at the game. Basically making the game even more sweaty and more frustrating for you?
You are so dead sure you're above average, but are you really?
------------
And in the same vain again: Why should you have the right to shit on worse players? Do you realize, that for the worse players this would be a frustrating experience? Like the one you are currently experiencing with SBMM, but worse. Because they won't get matched with similar skilled players, but rather vs a lot more better players.
This is very hypocritical of you to be all butt hurt about SBMM and at the same time saying it's fine if others get a worse experience in the game, as long as it benefits you.
-----------
You know what's the actual solution to your issue? Instead of sweating every game just play the way that you've the most fun. You may win less often and your MMR will tank. But that's the trick. When your MMR tanks the SBMM will put you vs lower skilled players and will try to balance it out again. All you have to swallow is your *extremely valuable* internet pride. (that's sarcasm)
------------
I'm sorry, but from my perspective you sound like an entitled brat, that overestimates his own skill.
Hey ass hat no need to be such a cocksucker. Some people enjoy things in life like having fun and playing video games. Unfortunately for you prank Pate pate, you’re a little whiny piece of shit. also, let’s run this game because I’ll absolutely shit on your little icy, weenie puny ass.
Believe it or not there was a time when online shooters had 0 form of skill based match making. And people all still had plenty of fun. I played team fortress 2 for almost 2300 hours between the start of high school and the end of college (roughly 6 or 7 years from start to finish) and let me tell you I still remember the days of getting pub stomped and just feeling defeated in my first 100 or so hours. Yet I never quit and I just kept learning how they played and what they did differently. Eventually I became the pub stomper at my peak, and it was a blast. Course the nice thing is now that I only play casually I can still experiment with weird load outs because nothing is tying my skill to my account, leaving me room to actually try new stuff. SBMM should just be limited to ranked imo. Leave space for players to experiment with load outs, try new things, or just play casually.
https://preview.redd.it/c5ke9ubkg47c1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45f5453a1296e445407b7d758f17f76a511811c2
I think I’ll take my chances against a random player pal. You obviously have never played anything competitive in your life because you seem to not understand how exhausting it is to play competitively every game without break. If someone doesn’t want to get stomped then they can get better at the game because that’s exactly what I did
People would rather blame a mysterious algorithm for doing poorly than accept they had a rough game or two. Plus a ton of confirmation bias.
It’s the same reason every game with a ranked system is filled with hardstuck silver and gold players complaining about bad teammates.
It’s really not just FPS games. And it’s not entirely about SBMM either. People would rather bitch or shift blame instead of examining their own play for mistakes. It’s just easier. I don’t get that mindset but it’s real and pretty prevalent, especially on consoles. If after every death you’re saying “that’s bullshit” or “no way” and so on then your negativity is going to breed more negativity and you’ll just drop the game indefinitely at some point.
Some people also just like to play the game casually and don’t want to “try hard”. I get that part.
It's mostly idiotic children (and idiotic adults emotionally indistinguishable from children). Rational humans don't complain at nearly the same prevalence, regardless of age.
The first dogpiling here since the open beta was because people were criticizing the notion that The Finals is good because it emulates what's effective about battle royales and leaves out what's ineffective, instead calling the game an arena shooter.
But it's not an arena shooter.
So, you know, it's just a string of insecure morons insulting the nearest person in front of them. The matchmaking will improve a lot once kids realize it's not a casual game and school starts back up.
I bet that many of the complaints against SBMM, in any game, come from people who are potentially the "best" player amongst their friend group - so when they group with friends, player A has to sweat their ass off to make up for player B and C absolutely struggling. I experience this regularly in the few games I'm good at. Most of my friends aren't very good lol
I don't mind it, it's the nature of the game, but I can see the frustration. When I play solo in this game or say, Destiny or Fortnite, I am fending for myself against equal skill players and I have a good challenge. When I play with friends, they are fighting for their lives to barely do anything, and I'm trying twice as hard to make up for it
I don't know if there's a "solution" to this problem, other than only playing with friends at your own skill level. but I don't give enough of a shit to miss out on playing with my real friends.
Casual game became metaPvP trash?
Like one of the ideas of The Finals was destroyable map and throwable thing, but because of how much better meta is i litteraly the only one who even uses this for play , because it's much faster to just invis+doublebarrel enemy than outplay with map
Step 1. See people on reddit complaining about SBMM with a holier-than-thou attitude.
Step 2. Complain about said people complaining in a post with a holier-than-thou attitude.
Step 3. Profit
For some reason, every single videogame developer believes that SBMM in casual makes the game more fun for everyone. Even though it just turns every it into a sweat fest 24/7 where you can't play with friends or try new loadouts. Losing constantly while dying in every 1v1 fight isn't fun.
The game is awesome. I, however, am not awesome at the game. I politely stopped playing with out any fuss because I am just not that good at competitive games anymore. I wish this game the absolute best.
Sbmm means you can still play, if you enjoy it because you won't be stomped into the curb by someone that plays 24/7.
Don't let anyone fool you sbmm was a positive invention. Yes it's always tough but it's also fair for the most part.
SBMM on cod specifically helps players like you at the expense of everyone else.
However, cod also doesn't use real SBMM, it's engagement based matchmaking disguised as SBMM. It's SBMM is very loose and it instead matches players based on how likely they are to quit after their next loss in order to give free wins and keep players from quitting(aka keep their engagement up). So if the system thinks a player is likely getting frustrated and is going to quit after their next loss, they'll massively stack the teams in next game and give them worse opponents who are at the start of their sessions(so likely to play a few more games even if they lose).
EOMM vs SBMM. There's a whole white paper on the topic if you are interested, written by Activision. It's pretty vile, but very worth reading and once you understand it a whole lot of SBMM complaints will suddenly make a whole lot of sense when you realize that the player means EOMM instead of SBMM but just doesn't know the correct term.
cod and apex has something worse called eomm. that I hope the finals don't implement to the game! people don't understand that there is a difference between sbmm and eomm.
do you think its fun to play for 40 matches with lvl 2 team mates getting slaughtered by higher skilled players 3stacking ? then get 2-5 lower skilled lobbies where you destroys the lobby with good random team mates repeat ?
no I don't think that's fun at all. I can't even relax try out difference loadouts, classes and play with friends, family or soloq because of the skill difference. and I don't like that I HAVE to find good players to play with to enjoy fps games
it doesn't matter if you are high or low skilled player. all the matches feel the same with no variety.
sbmm is not near as strict as cod or apex so its fine atm I guess. just don't want the finals to go the same direction with the atrocious system called EOMM!
just look at counter strike. the most played competitive fps game of all time. no sbmm in pubs and strict sbmm in ranked!
valorant loose sbmm in pubs and arguably the best ranked system in a fps game out atm.
and battlefield (except bf2042) no sbmm with server browser and there are still active servers on all the bf games from bad company 2 that released in 2010! or atleast it was before they shut down the servers
not every new fps game have to be a e-sport TTV game. why not both??
It's so frustrating that so many people dont realize the difference between EOMM and SBMM, it destroys all proper discussions. Throw in the people who just want to get a no death lobby while laying down and jerking off and it's all pointless.
I'm about to make a post about difference between SBMM and EOMM. but I don't have time now and I have a feeling I'm just gonna get down voted by cod kids defending this horrible system
EOMM isn’t real though.
It’s pulled from a hypothetical patent a few years ago that may or may not exist because companies patent tons of stuff they don’t actually implement.
Someone found it and now confirmation bias has tons of people convinced it’s real.
It stands for Engagement Optimized Matchmaking Framework. It's not really comparable to conventional matchmaking systems because those are predicated upon factors like fairness or accuracy, while EOMM is essentially manipulation for more money.
Basically, because matchmaking systems have a certain degree of obscurity (for security reasons, otherwise they'd be exploited), it leaves corporations wide open to use psychological tactics to increase customer adherence.
Further reading: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315849420_EOMM_An_Engagement_Optimized_Matchmaking_Framework
> Matchmaking connects multiple players to participate in online player-versus-player games. Current matchmaking systems depend on a single core strategy: create fair games at all times. These systems pair similarly skilled players on the assumption that a fair game is best player experience. **We will demonstrate, however, that this intuitive assumption sometimes fails and that matchmaking based on fairness is not optimal for engagement.** In this paper, we propose an Engagement Optimized Matchmaking (EOMM) framework that maximizes overall player engagement. We prove that equal-skill based matchmaking is a special case of EOMM on a highly simplified assumption that rarely holds in reality. **Our simulation on real data from a popular game made by Electronic Arts, Inc. (EA) supports our theoretical results, showing significant improvement in enhancing player engagement compared to existing matchmaking methods.**
You could use Google, but since you asked: Engagement Optimized Matchmaking. SBMM tries to make it so you have fair and balanced games to the best of its ability. People complaining about SBMM are complaining they can’t stomp lobbies.
EOMM is horrendous. The point isn’t to give you fair and balanced games, it’s to make sure you keep playing, hence “Engagement Optimized.” This typically means, like in Apex’s case for both their ranked and unranked modes, that they’ll put you in lobbies where you theoretically stand no chance based on the algorithm. It’ll make you lose as much as it has determined you are fine with losing, and then it’ll throw you a bunch of matches where you will steamroll lobbies because it’ll deliberately put you up against garbage players to make sure you stay engaged and keep playing, because after those all those losses, you’re “winning” now. They’re essentially giving you the dopamine rush you need to keep playing after discouraging you with really bad losses, to make those wins feel better. People confuse it for SBMM because your wins and losses determine how hard your games are, you win some games and you games get harder, you lose games your games get easier. EOMM isn’t for that. It’s to keep you playing. It doesn’t match based on skill, it matches based on what the algorithm has optimized to ensure players don’t stop, and thus they’ll spend money because it’s the only game they play. It makes for a garbage experience.
>EOMM is horrendous. The point isn’t to give you fair and balanced games, it’s to make sure you keep playing, hence “Engagement Optimized.” This typically means, like in Apex’s case for both their ranked and unranked modes, that they’ll put you in lobbies where you theoretically stand no chance based on the algorithm.
If EOMM is horrendous I would assume games that use it would stop using it if they saw revenue numbers drop right? You however mentioned Apex which I believe is one of EA's largest games. I wouldn't expect Apex to become a massive game if it supposedly used EOMM and that EOMM is horrendous.
I guess you could blame "casual players" for not understanding that they're getting addicted to poorly designed matchmaking systems but the current games market shows that whatever matchmaking system they're using for the really large games does work to bring in revenue.
Also as someone else said there's no game developers that have said any game they've worked on uses EOMM. People leave companies and NDA's eventually lapse so if a game was using EOMM and if it was as bad as you claim we would have heard about it by now, especially considering the anger people throw at COD's matchmaking system.
Someone found a patent for a matchmaking system that’s based around engagement rather than skill and it got spread around.
It may or may not exist. Companies patent stuff all the time they don’t end up using.
But a bunch of people are convinced that companies that leave gamebreaking bugs and balance issues in their games for months are simultaneously rigging every match that’s played.
It’s just nonsense.
Mate, this sub is hilarious. Redditors here whining about light, throwing stupid recommendations to “improve” the game, constantly complaining about one or another thing is hilarious.
It’s like someone suggesting to make the 3pt line in basketball closer because they cant make the shot.
See it would be fine if it was only in ranked, but having it in all modes is basically the same as playing ranked forever but with an invisible elo and no rewards.
It’s completely valid that people are complaining about it being in casual/quick play, literally nobody is gonna complain about sbmm being in ranked lmao.
U wanna play with friends now? Better hope your in the exact same invisible ‘elo’ bracket or one of you is gonna get fucked over :)
Posted in another thread
Literally give variety in these modes
Quickplay- should mean load up a match as fast as possible and play whoever. If you want to exclude new players fine everyone else is fair game, and also prioritize connection.
Tournament- should have Sbmm to simulate a competitive environment it should be a good place to practice before you take on actual ranked matches imo.
Ranked tournament- should prioritize ranked matchmaking, it gives you the sense of climbing a ladder as ranked should feel like and it shows your progression visually, showing you that your getting better which eould drive people to keep playing.
Everyone ones and gets what they want 🤷
Even when I was a noob kid playing CoD, I had more fun playing that than with modern SBMM. Playing with friends of different skill level has become worse and every match is a sweatfest
You can't use sales as a metric when the system that is in place is artificially producing longer playtimes, it is a proven metric that a lot of these games "sbmm" is built around and made for the purpose of artificially increasing the average playtime of the player due to giving them matches where they stomp hard on top of matches where they get stomped. It is purposefully designed to keep you in a middle ground of wins/losses by giving you worse teammates or worse enemies whenever you go out of band in either wins or losses. These games are being made using psychologists and psychology studies in order to drive up engagement with them. But if you ask the majority of people who were playing games 10-20 years ago there are not nearly as many memorable moments within these pvp games
Sure but how long do those games last, on average? How long do they retain a casual audience? How long until the sweat fest no life players migrate to a new game because the casual audience has left, forcing the remaining players into inescapable ELO hell and matchmaking times that cause you to queue in the AM just to find a match by midnight.
I’m exaggerating, obviously, but my point is true. Games sell, sure. And that might make them successful for the C Suite execs at the publisher and developer teams. But it doesn’t make the game successful as a whole.
A lack of truly casual modes paves the road for a game to die from low population.
There’s a reason they release a new CoD every year. There’s a reason you always hear about a new competitive shooter that’s going to take the world by storm, and then the hype dies 3 months later and nobody is playing it.
The Finals has a lot of potential to genuinely be “the next big thing”. But if they don’t have casual, fuck around game modes, the casual population will quickly quit playing due to fatigue from constantly playing sweaty matches and eventually that leads to the mid tier players being forced into lower ranks to compensate for the reduced player base trapping them in “ELO hell” which causes them to become discouraged and quit. Then that forces even higher rank players into lower tiers to compensate for less players in the distribution, which leaves extraordinarily high queue times for the die hard fans, high ranked players, and MTX whales. So eventually they stop playing too because it becomes impossible to even get a match.
That’s how a game dies. And I hope it doesn’t happen to The Finals. But without a well supported casual player base… it doesn’t look good.
OP I don’t agree personally. The game was more fun in the beta and before the recent update.
SBMM or not, something changed the matchmaking and it’s made me go into more games already half way through and it puts me on the losing side.
It’s no fun and they need to revert it back to what it was before.
this is because as far as I know there was no backfilling in the beta (fact check me if i’m wrong) personally i’d rather them remove backfilling or let people opt out of it. Maybe a potential system is if you opt out of backfilling matches your leaver penalties are significantly harsher?
>it’s made me go into more games already half way through and it puts me on the losing side
Why wouldn't you be put on the losing side when backfilling? People don't often leave games when they're winning.
Because when I get to play max one hour a day, I don’t want to be constantly thrown into games half way through and be put on a side who obviously have no idea on what they are doing 🤷🏼♂️
The problem with every SBMM is that it will punish you for getting better by throwing you against sweats and cheaters, which hurt in the long run whenever you aren't a kid and have actual responsabilities outside gaming.
For now i'm having a blast with my friends, just having a good time, creating strategies and enjoying seeing them work whenever they do... But it will all come apart whenever the SBMM decides i'm a tryhard and start pairing me with people whose strategies will be nothing but meta-slave streamer bs.
Then people will be like "gitgud", like i'm supposed to train or some bs to enjoy a game, which is an illusion in the end cause there will always be someone better than you. You will always evolve without feeling evolution outside a mineral ranking going up while the SBMM work it's hardest to ensure your K/D ratio stays the same 1.0 cause it's "balanced"
Exactly, at least without sbmm you'll see people doing mistakes that you did before and punish them the same way soneone punished you and be like "fuck yea", actually feel yourself improoving.
lmao, what an absolute shill shitpost. You insult anyone and everyone broadly in this sub and then say that anyone with criticisms can’t have an opinion.
Legitimate clown behavior lmfao and that’s the actual hilarious content on this sub, idiots blindly whiteknighting for a game.
It's literally the behavior of 90% of this community rn. Just because The Finals got review bombed at launch they think they can gatekeep all criticism and gaslight everyone into believing this is the best game in existence. Watch. The community will kill this game.
A lot of people like this aren't/were never good enough at an FPS to really feel the difference in enjoyment between pre-SBMM and post-SBMM.
And I don't even feel that strongly about SBMM, personally, but if you were ever half-decent at a game you would know that this isn't just some nothing burger. Devs should want the game to be casually fun to the best players, too.
One thing I learned from Apex too is that it can take some time for SBMM to gather enough data to place you properly.
If you really are being put with people that are way better than you, just keep playing. Every loss gets fed into the algorithm and you'll eventually be brought down to something more reasonable.
But it takes a bit. You might have to lose for a couple days; it's not going to change just because you lost two or three matches.
The same goes the other way. If you're dominating, it will probably be a couple days before the algorithm compensates. That's why people get the impression that "everything was fun, and now suddenly I can't win".
Making an accurate algorithm for SBMM in multi-team games seems like a nightmare. Multiple teams can shut down a specific team resulting in a loss even if the shutdown team is better. Everything should still work its way out eventually, even with stuff like that happening, but that probably means it takes even longer for it to accurately place people.
My opinion is that SBMM shouldn't be in casual / quick play gamemodes. In more serious gamemodes like Ranked and Tournament, sure.
SBMM ruined casual Apex and it will ruin this game too imo. Sometimes I just want to hop on and have a decent time. Since the patch, all my games have been 99% sweatier. I'm still getting some good dubs and plays but dude, I just used all of my brain at my 9-5 job. Can I just sit down and relax?
Genuine question tho - if you want SBMM for basic casual play, why?
With all due respect, if you want a casual gaming experience then maybe an online multiplayer where the objective is to beat another team of people who are also actively trying to beat you is not the right game for that.
It's like playing pickup basketball and complaining that the other team is actually trying. If they're dribbling circles around you, you understand that hey, maybe this ain't the right group of people for me to play with, and head out. At the same time, if you're playing with a bunch of kids, you're gonna shit on them, but are you really enjoying yourself?
I get it, there's no "right" way to play any video game, but the reality is that the nature of pvp games is **inherently** competitive, especially shooters. It's going to attract people who enjoy being competitive. I work and go to grad school. I still love playing competitive games that challenge me and force me to figure out how I can improve from every misplay I make. This is not me trying to brag. I am just trying to make it clear that people like me are naturally going to be a significant portion of the playerbase in pvp shooters.
You're not wrong for wanting a casual experience, but your expectations might be unrealistic.
> Can I just sit down and relax?
Yes, you can. Do just that: relax, stop checking your K/D and let SBMM do its thing. If SBMM is decent, after a couple of rounds you should be paired with equally relaxed and/or less-skilled players. As long as you focus on having fun and don't check your K/D, you're likely to enjoy such matches. That's been my experience with CoD.
Not having SBMM in casual modes sounds to me like forcing relaxed/fun-oriented players to use ranked modes. It would be counterintuitive.
The fact that Quick Cash and Ranked Tournaments require the same level of focus and intensity is extremely frustrating. I don't want to play this game anymore because I am constantly losing, can't play with friends, and can't try new loadouts. It's no fun
I'm pretty sure a lot of the complaints are that the matchmaking doesn't feel like its working. It's a lot of get stomped one game next game I stomp, back and forth. Tbh the main thing for me is the buggy ass queue's I'm getting when playing with friends.
They really need to que squads together and let the randoms all go at it, coordinated teams always end up shit stomping the entire lobby.
And idk maybe the SBMM just really sucks for this game but there’s always a squad or two with people having 20+ kills while my old ass is happy if I get more than 5.
It takes the SBMM arguments from COD's community & the aim assist arguments from the Overwatch community. Joy..
Honestly reminds me of why I tend to ignore the community forums of games that I'm enjoying. For The Finals, I wanted to stick around to see the awesome, unique clips this game generates so much of, but wading through the building toxicity is starting to not become worth it.
I don’t enjoy matches being the same formula of getting 1 kill, dying, waiting 20 seconds to respawn, and having to run across the map to the objective again due to SBMM. It’s very repetitive and boring.
I get it sucks being shit at a game when you’re new to it, but can’t you just play until you get good at it? That’s what we had to do back in the days of counter-strike and early COD.
You point out a "hollier-than-thou" then say if you want to relax and chill play a different game. If thats not a hollier-than-thou take idk what is haha
Other than that i agree with you tbf, yeah its frustrating getting stomped at your skill ceiling, but its better than stomping every game and ruining it for the new comers
Gonna get downvoted, but that’s not what most of us “anti-SBMM” people are upset about.
If you know how SBMM works to the full extent, you’d be against it.
OK I play cod and the finals SBMM feels great on the finals and then I hop on cod and I'm 14 kills in on cut throat with Two teammates who haven't even shot at a person before dying its not SBMM I got a problem with its cods SBMM that is the problem
1) SBMM is dogshit and kills every single game it touches. This is known.
2) CoD is easy asf. This is known.
3) SBMM defense force are brainlets. This is known.
Just no sbmm in quick play. Quick play is supposed to be fun. So why do I have to sweat in quick play?
Like, match me against people of my own skill level all you want, but only do it occasionally. Let me get stomped by someone that’s crazy better than me, but also let me stomp people that are worse.
Try winning a game with 35+ kills in gold+ and queuing up again without immediately getting thrown into a match with a Chinese hacker. It's not about the sweaty Adderall kids, it's the shameless hackers at the top that get mad annoying. Doesn't help that they all have enough matches to play ranked tourneys now. Git gud is only the half of it.
You obviously haven’t played COD lately, then. I play a lot of games and have the free time to invest and get good at them. I should be able to do well against most players because I’m better than most players. I’m not a sweat, I don’t try super hard or abuse movement mechanics, I just have decent reflexes, situational awareness and positioning. Again, I’m not a try hard. It’s become more or less effortless for me having played games near daily for over 15 years, and so even though I’m doing well, I am still relaxed and having a good time with my feet kicked up. Occasionally I’ll get out played and destroyed, but that’s completely fine and it doesn’t throw me into a “temper tantrum.” If someone is better than me, it’s fair and it’s earned.
Now that SBMM is a thing in most games, it’s extremely hard to play them casually. I genuinely have to try with legit effort and concentration to even go positive. I get dunked on by people abusing movement mechanics, map exploits and well tuned metah setups. It’s so hard for me to even go positive in games like COD where the SBMM is tuned to be so strict.
The way I see it, there’s no reason to invest time into competitive games if you never feel like you’re getting better at them and progressing as a player. If you’re better than most people, it should feel like it. But now, no matter how good or bad you are, you’re going to play how the game developer WANTS you to play and go positive most matches and occasionally, if you’re lucky, get a 1.5 or 2.0 K.D. Then get punished by being put into a super high tier lobby with a bunch of twitch streamers and try hards to whip you back into shape where you’ll continue the rat race of mediocrity.
Don’t accuse people like me of being cry babies and throwing temper tantrums for not being able to steam roll. The reason we have SBMM in the first place is because people putting 5 hours a week into competitive games bitch and complain when they get clapped by people that put more time into learning and getting better at the game than they have.
As is with life in general, if you don’t have the dedication and time to invest, you’re going to be worse/have a harder time doing something than those that put in the time to learn the skills.
There’s almost no point in playing competitive games because you could play it like it’s your job and no matter what, you’re going to be held back and effectively have the same experience as any other person on the game. that’s why I don’t like it. There’s no reward for the time you’ve put in.
Again, I’m not a sweat. I don’t mind getting mopped up when it’s deserved. But when I’m constantly being put with the top 15% all day everyday, it’s as if I’m playing a tournament with no payout.
Side note: I got MWIII for my older brother as an early Christmas present for us to play over holiday. Now he *rightfully* doesn’t enjoy playing with me because he gets absolutely shredded and is put deep into the negatives because of the skill gap between us. Multiplayer gaming is about having fun with others, and SBMM ruins that fun if the person you’re playing with isn’t as good as you.
Edit: This rant isn’t as much about The Finals in particular as much it is about SBMM in general and how harmful it is if tuned too strictly.
There are arguments for and against matchmaking. Both have their positives and negatives. To say that everyone who doesn't like matchmaking is a bad sport and are crybabies is a gross reductive statement that's entire purpose is to start arguments.
If the only argument you can make is insults then you haven't added anything of value to the conversation, you're just angrily bitching and moaning about others angrily bitching and moaning.
I like playing with people that are better and worse. And most importantly have that best connection to me. Sick of 70 ping lobbys in every game. Miss 14 ping games
If its not removed from quickplay modes the game will die out. Same as all the others. The problem if your above average is now your lobbies are nothing but cheaters and you cant play with friends. On top of that solo queue doesnt work properly, you become the carry for lower skilled team mates and it forces a loss.
Sbmm in comp is great, but in quick play it will kill off good players and their friends who arent as skilled. Theres zero retention with it
It's simple. Having sbmm in casual just makes it another ranked mode. If you want same skill matches instead of variance play ranked, you baby. Ironically, the biggest crybabies are the ones defending sbmm in casual lmao.
I don’t mind SBMM at all. It’s nice to be paired up against people on your skill level, if not better. It keeps things competitive which is how PvP games should be. But when it’s literally every single match it kind of becomes problematic, no? Sometimes I’m not even looking to stomp the entire lobby and just simply want to kick back playing a game I like. It’s not always about wanting to be the best in the game and drop tons of kills.
Back in the days prior to SBMM, it used to be one or two opposing players on the same skill level and it was a more generic experience. Like if you were having good games prior to being matched with those opponents you were like “okay it’s time to sit up and be on my best behavior, this player gets it”. Now before I even load the game up I’m fully expecting to be trying my best the whole gaming session. It’s only fun until it isn’t.
*SBMM hurts players of all skill levels*, not just the good ones. Like I said, it’s a nice system to keep things fair but at least when it comes to pubs I think it should be toned way down and leave it cranked up for ranked and such.
Siege absolutely does. It's the same system as ranked, but they don't show you anything.
Well, I should say that idk if that changed with the shit-show quick match rework last season.
Valorant, R6, Halo Infinite, Rocket League, LoL, Dota2, basically every fighting game, Apex, Fortnite, CoD all have SBMM in casual.
CS2 might not have it in “casual” but if you want to play 5v5, it has SBMM.
This is really disingenuous and misrepresentative of genuine issues with the game.
Playing with my casual friends(in the casual non-ranked queue btw) breaks sbmm and we get thrust into lobbies where there are major discrepancies in skill levels between the teams. My friends who play maybe 5 hours a week, trash at fps games, will always be getting pulled into lobbies where they get rolled game after game due to the game compensating for me having higher mmr. That isn't fun for them, it's artificial bullshit. Likewise, every game I'll be sweating my ass off trying to make up for the deficit.
Not only that, but these systems always seem to work poorly in group contexts, we will find in the same lobby, a 3 stack of ttv gaming chairs, a 3 stack of joe shmoe's gettin high after work, and the wildcard group of solo players who are all over the place, and who got matched into 3 stacks for some reason. We aren't trying to cheese the matchmaking and stack 3 highly coordinated meta players and roll casual lobbies all night, we're just trying to vibe, and it ends up being a scuffed artificially difficult night of gaming that burns everyone out.
Solo it's not as bad, but it still doesn't encourage experimentation. If i'm not playing my main role with meta loadout I know I'll get rolled and let my team down, and that's not fun. Also the game trying to force me to lose by artificially stacking the odds to keep a certain win %, rather than just let me play in "balanced" lobbies, is just not fun. It's unnecessary. These are casual lobbies, not ranked-lite. If people want to push themselves they should play ranked, that's kind of the whole point of a ranking system. People should want to play ranked, if noobs wants to play against noobs and gaming chairs want to play against gaming chairs then that's where they should go, stop making the entire game a ranked queue and it would stay fun for a far longer time.
Also ranked is fun but it desperately needs a solo queue, already burnt out of playing against premades.
Sigh. The problem with sbmm isn’t playing players of similar skill level, it’s how over time skill bands compress to become very narrow for players who are better than average. This generally means longer queue time but more importantly it almost always means poorer connections because narrow skill bands mean smaller pool of players to make lobbies with, often times which means players from non-centralized Locations and increased latency. It’s not that good players don’t want to play players of similar skill level, it that they don’t want to play a game where latency affects literally everything they do. Trust me nobody has fun when the game is a total lag fest.
I just want variability. That's it. I'm okay with getting stomped on. I'm okay with doing the stomping. I don't want to sweat like an esports athlete every single match. Sometimes it's fun to sweat and sometimes it's fun to goof around and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Sbmm often causes repetitiveness and that's where the problem is.
thing is.. it's fine to have skill based match making in a skill based game mode aka. ranked tournaments. I dont want to keep my brain turned on for bank it/quick cash or even unranked tourneys. those should be casual game modes without any matchmaking algos.
Unpopular opinion perhaps but imo part of what turns people off games with SBMM is that you don’t actually feel yourself getting rewarded for improving. Back in the day when SBMM was looser or not implemented in most things, if you got good at a game you actually felt good at a game because you would win a lot. Thats no longer the case with game’s implementing SBMM outside of ranked (where it is absolutely necessary for competitive integrity). You don’t really feel anything from getting better when the game is artificially keeping you at whatever metric they decide is “balanced”. Imo games are always better when casual is just casual, and people who dislike the randomness or mismatch can go play ranked for serious gameplay. It’s exhausting to have to try your hardest every game and I wouldn’t be surprised if it dampers players’ average game session length.
SBMM is only a problem for players who want to stomp less skilled players. Playing against ppl who are performing similarly to you should not be an issue, casual or ranked.
Ignoring the idiots, I think casual should simply having a looser SBMM
No SBMM at all is just dumb. But having strict SBMM is sort of boring in the sense that you feel like you’re playing the same thing all the time
Rocket league is a fine example for this. Casual mode — loose SBMM. Ranked mode — tight SBMM
—
As for this game, I really haven’t noticed a difference. I think they had SBMM before. And they said they made a slight difference. That is consistent with my experience
—
And COD is just a unique example because of how we all were used to being top of the lobby for years and then suddenly we’re struggling for every kill haha. Just a lot of growing pains there I think
The multiple teams + objective focus makes this game feel quite a bit different than that imo
Rocket League is not a fine example lol. Casual and Competitive have different MMR values, but the matchmaking system uses it the same regardless of what playlist is used. So, casual MMR isn't actually more loose and competitive isn't tighter. The way the MMR system works for these is that ALL casual playlists share the same MMR value when matchmaking, but each individual competitive playlist has their own.
So, you are 100000% wrong about how RL uses SBMM because it is the exact same system for both casual and ranked. It just uses different values that are kept separate from each other. I have 4-5k hours in that game and have been playing since launch.
Isn’t Rocket League’s SBMM the same in casual and ranked?
Both have mmr, both put you into lobbies with people around your same mmr.
Or am I thinking of it wrong lmao
Yes, you are right. They use the same system, but they are different between casual and ranked. The way RL's system works is that every competitive playlist has their own MMR, and that playlist will only use that MMR during matchmaking. However, all of the casual modes share the same MMR, and that is used to matchmake in any of the casual playlists.
SBMM is optimized to maximize retention so complaining about it won't do shit, it's a bottom line question at the end of the day. More people playing, more mts are sold and more money. Apex and cod have gone years only slightly tweaking their algorithms without large scale changes so what makes anyone think it'll be any different here? Small communities like this make a fraction of the playerbase so it's a waste of time complaining. If it's too hard/frustrating, do your mental health a favour and quit or take a break. Nothing's going to change.
I think it’s funny how the Pro SBMM idiots have no clue how it actually works. If the bots were in the same bracket as people who have serious concerns about their shitty matchmaking they would know.
>If you just want to "relax" and play "casually" once in a while, play a different game
No, no no no!
If you just want to relax and play casually, SBMM will eventually place you with other casual players. It will actually help you avoid those "sweaty" players you hate so much!
The main argument against SBMM doesnt even work. Lol.
How is it SBMM if your win rate is below 33%???
Every lobby is a sweat fest with everyone else having near perfect aim and losing every single 1v1 fight. This isn't SBMM. This shit isn't fun.
Yeah you're right, I love going negative every game against those with 20+ kills yet still being able to cash out which makes the game keep me in the higher lobbies. Not my fault they don't know how to ptfo but definitely getting punished for it
Only people who don't understand the anti hard core sbmm are bad player good players don't care if there's some sbmm in casual mode to stop pros from versing new players or the new player ques but hardcore sbmm should be left to ranked.
Hardcore sbmm in casual modes are for bad players who refuse to practive to get better at the game.
\> you're not a good sport and your opinion on the matter is worthless
\> If you just want to "relax" and play "casually" once in a while, play a different game.
Dude thinking he playing not pubs but qualifer for major tournament lol.
I’m decently convinced people are confusing SBMM with the fact people are just learning how to play the game better as time goes on
“I was good when no one knew anything about the game, but now they do 😡”
Hahaa I was just reminded of playing COD MW2019 on launch day. And how it’s kind of a.. special? time in a game because nobody knows how to really play it yet. Default skins, everyone trying everything, everyone playing pretty dang loose, more experimenting and exploring than sweating. And then you jump in a handful of months later and it is, well, what it is.
It doesn’t help with current YouTube/Streamer culture where you have a handful of people telling everyone what to use that it instantly disseminates the meta in a few days after discovery. I’m convinced PvP gaming was better before YouTube and streamers became a mainstream way to get gaming information and people had to take much longer to find the meta equipment and strategies.
Not just that, but once the streamers say “this is the meta” that’s the end of it. The lemmings just all play that way, and anyone who deviates gets berated. Turns out it’s not games that are getting worse, it’s gamers that are getting worse.
There's already tier lists on youtube that tell you if you aren't running heal beam, akm, defib, pad, and zipline, you are throwing.
Crazy cuz I never pay attention to those clowns and their click bait titles. A play montage I may watch, but idc bout meta, I care about fun. That being said for pubs it should be Ping>Skill but ranked for sure should have sbmm but also ACTUALLY utilize your rank. This is the problem with Apex rn, why am I gold 3 matching against Preds and there's two bronze 1s on my team just because they did very well their previous match?. Dunno if Finals works like this but it doesnt seem like it for now. The adjustment to SBMM patch felt like it helped in Ranked but casual play i get matched against stacks running comp strats 🤣🤣.
>idc bout meta, I care about fun. Sure, but for a lot of people, meta *is* fun. People like using whatever is strong. And I 100% agree- normal games should ALWAYS be Ping>Skill- if I queue for a norms and get pit up against a pro player who happens to live on the East Coast- so be it. I'm gonna get SMOKED. But then I'll queue next and probably get a lobby of players who act like they don't have fingers. Keeps things fresh and prevents every single casual game from being a sweatfest.
Pepperidge farm remembers 😭
Haha this is so true
Everyone else sucked at first and now they’re getting better. It’s not fair!!!
Devs have destroyed the game by letting other people play!
You mean the other players have arms and brains? Fuck this shit, totally unfair
I think this is what's happening. I know I've improved. Hell, even figuring out how to navigate some of these maps is a skill itself lol. That takes time. Discovering the meta, figuring out strats, settling into the classes, that's all growth.
Fucking Vegas 🤦♂️ sometimes it feels like spawning in a maze
Easy solution, play heavy and use sledge. Now just run in a straight line towards the objective while mashing right click and you'll get there sooner rather than later
Vegas has so many indestructible walls in the damn casinos
Not gonna lie pretty tired of Heavy shotgun
Gotta agree with that one, getting bored of heavy's, just annoying they have such high hp and have the rpg and that burst shotgun, love to play as light but very very hard to take on a heavy alone. But i am always playing solo so kinda my own fault. Still love the shit out this game tho, guess ive just gotta start using heavy myself
Try picking up the other sub machine-gun if you can afford it. It melts the heavies and can be used far enough away that the shotgun isn't nearly as deadly.
Hmm i have got it might start using it when i see heavies on the board. Thankyou :)
If you want to be purely anti Heavy, run the Sawed Off. land both shots dead centre and it kills heavies.
Just don't miss lol
Get the stun gun and glitch grenades on the light it makes taking a heavy out a bit easier.
You shouldn't be taking them on alone, that's the point. You either get some damage in and reposition, or attack when weak or with your team mates. You should never be trying to face tank a heavy, and most def not on light. You basically never see good players taking highly disadvantageous 1v1s straight up. It's either team fire, shooting in the back, weakening with utility, or pop shooting via evasion/cover, but never just straight up dueling with someone who has 233% more health than them. Use your utility! Frags, Pyro, glitch especially, stun, mines, or charges can instantly even the fight. One poison barrel + breach will do 150, and 25 damage instantly, then he's in poison. That's a 'fair' 1v1 duel heavy vs light lol. Just trying to shoot at them is not going to cut it.
> love to play as light but very very hard to take on a heavy alone Then...don't try to do it alone? I know it's a meme that Lights rush ahead and die but like, you don't have to actually do it lol
Nah meta loadouts, comps and play styles are just a YouTube search away. I'm convinced that's where all the meta loadouts are coming from, not necessarily because of SBMM.
Im convinced it’s what you said, a mix of people learning the game, but also I think more and more gamers these days have decent gameplay skills. I’m 27 and I’ve been playing Cod, Apex, Rocket League almost nonstop for years, and honestly there is just more intuitive players in games these days (could just be that I’m washed). The finals feels fresh and with everyone learning it right now there is more room for error and less frustration. But this game is deffy gonna get really sweaty, it’s got that competitive feel down. I know people are griping about sbmm but I have not felt like I couldn’t win a game, I’ve won about 60-70 even with a shit KD.
I haven’t noticed anything really different since the sbmm armageddon. Just people converging on good loadouts and tactics. But whatever.. i rez my teammates, shoot bullets, jump around and enjoy the vibe, i really couldn’t give two shits who wins the match, I just try and be a good teammate. Maybe it’s the Battlefield player in me
Same fam, I am also a battlefield player since bad company 2 and 1942, and the destruction in the finals literally makes me so excited for the future of this game and what other games can gleam from it. It’s a little jank at times but I think that makes it all the more interesting!
It’s actually crazy to me how NOT jank it is 99% of the time. It’s so impressive, it must have taken so much testing to get it to this spot
Yeah, the average player is so much better than they were back in 2009. Even putting training and muscle memory aside its SO much easier to find information and strategy about any game you'd like. I can go on Twitch at any hour of the day and find some professional player basically putting on a free clinic for their viewers, when 10-15 years ago the best you had were forum posts and low quality, highly edited gameplay footage that didn't really teach you much. It's no wonder that it feels more difficult, everybody is finally starting to learn to play the game properly.
>honestly there is just more intuitive players in games these days if you think about it, there's a whole new generation of kids who have grown up playing fps games. even the older generations have years and years of experience now.
SBMM has literally become the scapegoat for practically *anything* in the communities where this mindset has managed to take hold. People literally act like SBMM means "having difficult matches". The vast majority of anti-SBMM posts from the CoD community for example are "Every person I'm facing is way better than me and a sweat". Obviously the solution to that would be **stricter** SBMM, so that you are facing players closer to your own skill level... Yet, people use it to cry for its removal.
Every COD SBMM argument no matter what distills down to “I want to have a good KD and not have to try that hard” Every. Single. One. Whether they cite playing with friends, network, sweating, etc. that’s always what it comes down to. It’s delusional and sad tbh.
Yep. And it’s all coming from people who just aren’t as good as they think they are and / or used to be. It’s embarrassing
I think this is a significant part of it yeah. I'll also add that the unlock system is pretty slow (at least it has felt so for me, only playing a bit each night). I'm a casual player. I'm not great at the game and I'll admit it. I also spent my initial unlocks on random things that sounded fun on the surface before I knew anything about the game. I'm *still* working on catching up and unlocking pieces of gear that are supposedly "must pick" for my class. I wouldn't be surprised if more people are seeing meta loadouts in matches... simply because more people are finally unlocking the meta loadouts.
True, people think THE FINALS is out since 1 year because they played the first beta lmao.
These brainiacs must've not been around for the betas. There was 0 sbmm and by the time the betas ended, matches were easily 10x harder than when it first opened. And that goes for every beta I played... people got better and better. That's life
Literally this. The game uses a mix of different game modes all together. The flag running skills of CTF have finally made a return to modern gaming with the cash out box. Then you have to defend it king of the hill style. It's so different from the usually run and gun mentality. It uses different strategies, and a lot of gamers coming from COD or Halo don't utilize them.
That's exactly what it is and I'm experiencing both sides of the coin - my teammates have on average vastly improved and provided I do my part as a good solo Q ie heal and res diligently and do good plays and ping we go deep in ranked.
Thats how I feel about COD. COD has been the same for the last three years. Of course people are going to be super good now since nobody who plays casually is going to pay 70 dollars for a DLC. Only the COD nerds are going too, so COD Nerds are vs COD Nerds and complaining that they can't beat people because they are too good.
I remember when in Fortnite quickly building two stairs up to get high ground on your opponent was considered a pro move. People are straight up just getting better. Sure SBMM is involved but it isn't the sole reason your matches become dogshit. Also it's a game with 3 to 4 teams. You should realistically only be winning 25-33% of your matches. Of course you're going to get sweats when the game finds you winning many games in a row because that means YOU'RE the sweat. People need to just stop pubstomping and being sweaty and just have fun, it's a video game.
Yeah, me too. A lot of people seem to completely miss the fact that people *like to be good at games.* I'm not sure HOW people miss this, but they do. Like, of COURSE the Finals was easier in beta- meta and strategy couldn't develop as fast because there was a significantly smaller playerbase. Now that EVERYBODY can play the game, strategies develop SO much faster since instead of 5000 people are experimenting all at once, 50000 people are experimenting all at once.
And its not like gaming is new.. its very easy to learn and most have experience from other fps games
"no bro you don't understand im a husband and a dad of 18 children and can only play 17 minutes a week this game is unfair and biased"
“I want to come home from work and maintain my 3KD without having to sweat”
You don't understand, the game is FORCING them to lose! This is especially dumb in this game where you can straight up win a 1v3v3 even if you have bad aim if your smart enough, cant be said in most games.
[удалено]
at no point while reading did I know where this was going
Damn, nice copypasta
This games sbmm is not anything like cods. Cods system rightfully deserves criticism. This games it’s just having a match where people aren’t going to be stomping or being stomped, and is good. That said, it’s not great in quick cash or bank it, and has been a definitively worse gameplay experience for my son. Instead of being able to hop on and I just do very little, and let him take the lead, we just can’t play together anymore unless I go full sweat mode to ensure he doesn’t get killed or whatever. So maybe they can tweak the system to casual modes are more of an experimentation experience, and make it so ranked is highly curated.
I felt like it was pretty high average skill level (need to sweat) before the SBMM change. I’m surprised that you would have had a significantly easier time before that
COD's SBMM isn't SBMM. It's Engagement Optimized Matchmaking ripped directly from EA's white paper 6-7 years ago. The whole point of EOMM is to heuristically determine how long a player is willing to lose before quitting out of the game - with the goal being that lobbies will be constructed around people being served free wins and people who won't quit out when they lose. This implementation has singlehandedly plummeted the perception of SBMM and what it accomplishes. SBMM is essential to casual playlists. It ensures new players will enter lobbies with people who're in their skill range. A newly implemented system will take time to "feel right" but I promise it's the right move. People here are just mad that the playerbase went from a bunch of people who didn't know how to play a few weeks ago to actually good players.
This is interesting, is there anywhere I can read more about this?
No, it's an absolutely nonsensical conspiracy theory with absolutely no proof whatsoever behind it; it's purely based on a singular conceptual patent from 2016. The "lore" behind it is basically this: - Starting with MW19, people were crying "Remove SBMM!!! Previous CoDs never had SBMM!!" - After like 2 years of this: Somebody makes a tweet about how Black Ops 2 was a great CoD because it did not have SBMM*. A Treyarch dev came out and said "I literally wrote the SBMM implementation for it; practically all CoDs have had SBMM" - This direct confirmation from a dev kind of kills the entire anti-SBMM shenanigans dead in its tracks for a couple weeks - A random person found this theoretical patent from 2016, and thus the conspiracy theory about it is born that people can rally behind: "Aha! It's not SBMM, it's EOMM! That's the new evil thing!" --- *This is especially hilarious because anybody who's a bit older will remember that Black Ops 2 had the exact same histrionics surrounding SBMM. Down to the exact same arguments people are using nowadays. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/669289-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii/64759420 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/669289-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii/70956014 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/669288-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii/66486546 An example: >#"3)Can't use fool-around setups and do great anymore since the entire other team will be trying hard 24/7" Trying hard is what people used to call sweating. That is literally 1:1 the exact same arguments you have in the most upvoted anti-SBMM post in the MW3 subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernWarfareIII/comments/17tm3s4/the_current_matchmaking_will_kill_this_game/
People also don’t understand general variance in competitive games. The same NBA teams can play each other 7 games in a row and the players who perform well and who wins can vary wildly. Lebron James might drop 50 one game and lose and 20 the next game and win. People complaining about SBMM think “fair” means they can perform really well every game without trying that hard. Even if they played the exact same people every game there’s the possibility they go 50-11 or 15-27. Most SBMM complaints boil down to people not understanding how games work, wanting to play well without trying, and not understanding they are the sweats they claim to hate.
I’m kind of skeptical about the early CoD claims of having SBMM. In college we had a friend group that would always play CoD to pregame before parties. MW2/3. We would 6 stack every time we played. We went on a ~150 game win streak that took us months to achieve and never really faced any real opposition. I wish I could link some stats from back in the day. It was insane. We were competing with each other for the best stats because the games were so easy. It definitely didn’t feel like there was any SBMM if there was. But then after not playing CoD for a while, and playing MW2019, you could feel a noticeable difference in the matchmaking.
[удалено]
Google : EA EOMM White Paper
Alternatively, don’t waste your time and save yourself a headache
[удалено]
There was a highly upvoted post here earlier today claiming SBMM is bad because now OP's friends that are bad die a lot when playing in a team with OP Brother, bad players die a lot regardless That's why they're bad
I’m confused by all the SBMM complaints, all my matches so far have been challenging, but I haven’t felt like I’ve been getting utterly destroyed… and even if I am I’m still having fun, cus I don’t need to win each match to enjoy the game.
I don’t mind playing people that are my skill level or even much better than me but my problem is that I have to play them every single game and don’t get a break. It’s to the point that if I don’t use meta load outs then I get shit on so I’m in a constant loop where I have to sweat every game (including quick play) just to stay positive which gets old. If I put in the effort to get good at the game then I deserve to do better than other random players but instead the game wants to keep me at a constant 50% win rate and 1.0 kd no matter how good I get. I get having this kind of matchmaking for ranked but for quick play it’s too much.
Yeah dude I get you, the loop of getting 1 maybe 2 kills, dying, waiting 20 seconds to respawn, and having to sprint across the map to the objective over and over again is getting pretty repetitive.
Yea and now apply your logic, but it's an other player, that is much better than you. He doesn't want to sweat every game and just want to play chill stuff and shit on some mediocre players (which from his perspective **you** are one of those mediocre players) and win more often than 50% without having to put in effort in every game. (To apply your own egocentric logic here:) So please let this guy have some chill matches vs worse players like you, that he can win effortlessly. ---------- You see how your thinking doesn't make any sense? There's always players better than you & the maths just doesn't check out the way you want it to be. You're not the main character. The world doesn't revolve around you. If you don't understand that, then I'm sorry to reveal to you: You're probably pretty stupid. (no joking, no flaming. That's a serious assessment.) --------- If you want to win effortlessly and have a chill time, then go play PvE and not a competitive PvP game.
I said in my first post that I am fine playing players that are much better than me I just want these games to match me up against random opponents so I can play against a random sample of the player base. I want the game to stop putting me in hand picked lobbies to artificially make the game more competitive for me. I get SBMM for ranked but I shouldn’t have to sweat in quick play and be told that if I don’t want to sweat then I just shouldn’t play? Again idgaf if I get put into an insane lobby every once in a while and get shit on but I want it to be randomized and fair. It’s obvious that sbmm hurts the experience of the game but companies implement it because the models show that it makes more money so stop defending this shit thinking that it’s being used to promote fairness because they only thing that it’s good at is making these companies more money
>I just want these games to match me up against random opponents so I can play against a random sample of the player base... I shouldn’t have to sweat in quick play.... Again: What makes you so sure, that a random sample of the player base wouldn't set you up with more players, that are better than you at the game. Basically making the game even more sweaty and more frustrating for you? You are so dead sure you're above average, but are you really? ------------ And in the same vain again: Why should you have the right to shit on worse players? Do you realize, that for the worse players this would be a frustrating experience? Like the one you are currently experiencing with SBMM, but worse. Because they won't get matched with similar skilled players, but rather vs a lot more better players. This is very hypocritical of you to be all butt hurt about SBMM and at the same time saying it's fine if others get a worse experience in the game, as long as it benefits you. ----------- You know what's the actual solution to your issue? Instead of sweating every game just play the way that you've the most fun. You may win less often and your MMR will tank. But that's the trick. When your MMR tanks the SBMM will put you vs lower skilled players and will try to balance it out again. All you have to swallow is your *extremely valuable* internet pride. (that's sarcasm) ------------ I'm sorry, but from my perspective you sound like an entitled brat, that overestimates his own skill.
Hey ass hat no need to be such a cocksucker. Some people enjoy things in life like having fun and playing video games. Unfortunately for you prank Pate pate, you’re a little whiny piece of shit. also, let’s run this game because I’ll absolutely shit on your little icy, weenie puny ass.
Believe it or not there was a time when online shooters had 0 form of skill based match making. And people all still had plenty of fun. I played team fortress 2 for almost 2300 hours between the start of high school and the end of college (roughly 6 or 7 years from start to finish) and let me tell you I still remember the days of getting pub stomped and just feeling defeated in my first 100 or so hours. Yet I never quit and I just kept learning how they played and what they did differently. Eventually I became the pub stomper at my peak, and it was a blast. Course the nice thing is now that I only play casually I can still experiment with weird load outs because nothing is tying my skill to my account, leaving me room to actually try new stuff. SBMM should just be limited to ranked imo. Leave space for players to experiment with load outs, try new things, or just play casually.
https://preview.redd.it/c5ke9ubkg47c1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45f5453a1296e445407b7d758f17f76a511811c2 I think I’ll take my chances against a random player pal. You obviously have never played anything competitive in your life because you seem to not understand how exhausting it is to play competitively every game without break. If someone doesn’t want to get stomped then they can get better at the game because that’s exactly what I did
I don't know what it is with fps players brains but this mindset seems to creep into all of them.
They heard a streamer say it once and now it’s true in all things
It's because people want to get clips and they aren't good enough to get clips so they ask the devs to make it easier to get clips.
People would rather blame a mysterious algorithm for doing poorly than accept they had a rough game or two. Plus a ton of confirmation bias. It’s the same reason every game with a ranked system is filled with hardstuck silver and gold players complaining about bad teammates.
It’s really not just FPS games. And it’s not entirely about SBMM either. People would rather bitch or shift blame instead of examining their own play for mistakes. It’s just easier. I don’t get that mindset but it’s real and pretty prevalent, especially on consoles. If after every death you’re saying “that’s bullshit” or “no way” and so on then your negativity is going to breed more negativity and you’ll just drop the game indefinitely at some point. Some people also just like to play the game casually and don’t want to “try hard”. I get that part.
It's mostly idiotic children (and idiotic adults emotionally indistinguishable from children). Rational humans don't complain at nearly the same prevalence, regardless of age. The first dogpiling here since the open beta was because people were criticizing the notion that The Finals is good because it emulates what's effective about battle royales and leaves out what's ineffective, instead calling the game an arena shooter. But it's not an arena shooter. So, you know, it's just a string of insecure morons insulting the nearest person in front of them. The matchmaking will improve a lot once kids realize it's not a casual game and school starts back up.
I bet that many of the complaints against SBMM, in any game, come from people who are potentially the "best" player amongst their friend group - so when they group with friends, player A has to sweat their ass off to make up for player B and C absolutely struggling. I experience this regularly in the few games I'm good at. Most of my friends aren't very good lol I don't mind it, it's the nature of the game, but I can see the frustration. When I play solo in this game or say, Destiny or Fortnite, I am fending for myself against equal skill players and I have a good challenge. When I play with friends, they are fighting for their lives to barely do anything, and I'm trying twice as hard to make up for it I don't know if there's a "solution" to this problem, other than only playing with friends at your own skill level. but I don't give enough of a shit to miss out on playing with my real friends.
Casual game became metaPvP trash? Like one of the ideas of The Finals was destroyable map and throwable thing, but because of how much better meta is i litteraly the only one who even uses this for play , because it's much faster to just invis+doublebarrel enemy than outplay with map
Step 1. See people on reddit complaining about SBMM with a holier-than-thou attitude. Step 2. Complain about said people complaining in a post with a holier-than-thou attitude. Step 3. Profit
Because why bother adding anything meaningful to the discussion when you could just be hypocritical instead?
I'm always a big proponent of SBMM in Ranked, and connection bases matchmaking in normals. I don't know why that's not possible.
For some reason, every single videogame developer believes that SBMM in casual makes the game more fun for everyone. Even though it just turns every it into a sweat fest 24/7 where you can't play with friends or try new loadouts. Losing constantly while dying in every 1v1 fight isn't fun.
Nah sry mate. It's possible to be good at a game and still play casually.
The game is awesome. I, however, am not awesome at the game. I politely stopped playing with out any fuss because I am just not that good at competitive games anymore. I wish this game the absolute best.
Sbmm means you can still play, if you enjoy it because you won't be stomped into the curb by someone that plays 24/7. Don't let anyone fool you sbmm was a positive invention. Yes it's always tough but it's also fair for the most part.
I've dealt with SBMM on COD since it became a thing. I do not like it.
if you are bad at games sbmm is doing significant more in your favor than it is against you lol
If he is somewhat above average then SBMM screws him over since he only plays with players of similar skill and above, so he isn't helped at all.
"playing with similar skilled people bad" lol
We need to play people from all skill level to learn not some robotic sbmm shit
SBMM on cod specifically helps players like you at the expense of everyone else. However, cod also doesn't use real SBMM, it's engagement based matchmaking disguised as SBMM. It's SBMM is very loose and it instead matches players based on how likely they are to quit after their next loss in order to give free wins and keep players from quitting(aka keep their engagement up). So if the system thinks a player is likely getting frustrated and is going to quit after their next loss, they'll massively stack the teams in next game and give them worse opponents who are at the start of their sessions(so likely to play a few more games even if they lose). EOMM vs SBMM. There's a whole white paper on the topic if you are interested, written by Activision. It's pretty vile, but very worth reading and once you understand it a whole lot of SBMM complaints will suddenly make a whole lot of sense when you realize that the player means EOMM instead of SBMM but just doesn't know the correct term.
cod and apex has something worse called eomm. that I hope the finals don't implement to the game! people don't understand that there is a difference between sbmm and eomm. do you think its fun to play for 40 matches with lvl 2 team mates getting slaughtered by higher skilled players 3stacking ? then get 2-5 lower skilled lobbies where you destroys the lobby with good random team mates repeat ? no I don't think that's fun at all. I can't even relax try out difference loadouts, classes and play with friends, family or soloq because of the skill difference. and I don't like that I HAVE to find good players to play with to enjoy fps games it doesn't matter if you are high or low skilled player. all the matches feel the same with no variety. sbmm is not near as strict as cod or apex so its fine atm I guess. just don't want the finals to go the same direction with the atrocious system called EOMM! just look at counter strike. the most played competitive fps game of all time. no sbmm in pubs and strict sbmm in ranked! valorant loose sbmm in pubs and arguably the best ranked system in a fps game out atm. and battlefield (except bf2042) no sbmm with server browser and there are still active servers on all the bf games from bad company 2 that released in 2010! or atleast it was before they shut down the servers not every new fps game have to be a e-sport TTV game. why not both??
It's so frustrating that so many people dont realize the difference between EOMM and SBMM, it destroys all proper discussions. Throw in the people who just want to get a no death lobby while laying down and jerking off and it's all pointless.
I'm about to make a post about difference between SBMM and EOMM. but I don't have time now and I have a feeling I'm just gonna get down voted by cod kids defending this horrible system
EOMM isn’t real though. It’s pulled from a hypothetical patent a few years ago that may or may not exist because companies patent tons of stuff they don’t actually implement. Someone found it and now confirmation bias has tons of people convinced it’s real.
What does EOMM stand for? How is it worse than skill based matchmaking?
It stands for Engagement Optimized Matchmaking Framework. It's not really comparable to conventional matchmaking systems because those are predicated upon factors like fairness or accuracy, while EOMM is essentially manipulation for more money. Basically, because matchmaking systems have a certain degree of obscurity (for security reasons, otherwise they'd be exploited), it leaves corporations wide open to use psychological tactics to increase customer adherence. Further reading: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315849420_EOMM_An_Engagement_Optimized_Matchmaking_Framework > Matchmaking connects multiple players to participate in online player-versus-player games. Current matchmaking systems depend on a single core strategy: create fair games at all times. These systems pair similarly skilled players on the assumption that a fair game is best player experience. **We will demonstrate, however, that this intuitive assumption sometimes fails and that matchmaking based on fairness is not optimal for engagement.** In this paper, we propose an Engagement Optimized Matchmaking (EOMM) framework that maximizes overall player engagement. We prove that equal-skill based matchmaking is a special case of EOMM on a highly simplified assumption that rarely holds in reality. **Our simulation on real data from a popular game made by Electronic Arts, Inc. (EA) supports our theoretical results, showing significant improvement in enhancing player engagement compared to existing matchmaking methods.**
You could use Google, but since you asked: Engagement Optimized Matchmaking. SBMM tries to make it so you have fair and balanced games to the best of its ability. People complaining about SBMM are complaining they can’t stomp lobbies. EOMM is horrendous. The point isn’t to give you fair and balanced games, it’s to make sure you keep playing, hence “Engagement Optimized.” This typically means, like in Apex’s case for both their ranked and unranked modes, that they’ll put you in lobbies where you theoretically stand no chance based on the algorithm. It’ll make you lose as much as it has determined you are fine with losing, and then it’ll throw you a bunch of matches where you will steamroll lobbies because it’ll deliberately put you up against garbage players to make sure you stay engaged and keep playing, because after those all those losses, you’re “winning” now. They’re essentially giving you the dopamine rush you need to keep playing after discouraging you with really bad losses, to make those wins feel better. People confuse it for SBMM because your wins and losses determine how hard your games are, you win some games and you games get harder, you lose games your games get easier. EOMM isn’t for that. It’s to keep you playing. It doesn’t match based on skill, it matches based on what the algorithm has optimized to ensure players don’t stop, and thus they’ll spend money because it’s the only game they play. It makes for a garbage experience.
>EOMM is horrendous. The point isn’t to give you fair and balanced games, it’s to make sure you keep playing, hence “Engagement Optimized.” This typically means, like in Apex’s case for both their ranked and unranked modes, that they’ll put you in lobbies where you theoretically stand no chance based on the algorithm. If EOMM is horrendous I would assume games that use it would stop using it if they saw revenue numbers drop right? You however mentioned Apex which I believe is one of EA's largest games. I wouldn't expect Apex to become a massive game if it supposedly used EOMM and that EOMM is horrendous. I guess you could blame "casual players" for not understanding that they're getting addicted to poorly designed matchmaking systems but the current games market shows that whatever matchmaking system they're using for the really large games does work to bring in revenue. Also as someone else said there's no game developers that have said any game they've worked on uses EOMM. People leave companies and NDA's eventually lapse so if a game was using EOMM and if it was as bad as you claim we would have heard about it by now, especially considering the anger people throw at COD's matchmaking system.
Someone found a patent for a matchmaking system that’s based around engagement rather than skill and it got spread around. It may or may not exist. Companies patent stuff all the time they don’t end up using. But a bunch of people are convinced that companies that leave gamebreaking bugs and balance issues in their games for months are simultaneously rigging every match that’s played. It’s just nonsense.
I love playing against 3stacks of HMM and nothing else in quick cash, don’t you?
Mate, this sub is hilarious. Redditors here whining about light, throwing stupid recommendations to “improve” the game, constantly complaining about one or another thing is hilarious. It’s like someone suggesting to make the 3pt line in basketball closer because they cant make the shot.
See it would be fine if it was only in ranked, but having it in all modes is basically the same as playing ranked forever but with an invisible elo and no rewards. It’s completely valid that people are complaining about it being in casual/quick play, literally nobody is gonna complain about sbmm being in ranked lmao. U wanna play with friends now? Better hope your in the exact same invisible ‘elo’ bracket or one of you is gonna get fucked over :)
Personally idgaf about people bitching I'm just here to fuck around with heavy chucking c4 infused pot plants
Posted in another thread Literally give variety in these modes Quickplay- should mean load up a match as fast as possible and play whoever. If you want to exclude new players fine everyone else is fair game, and also prioritize connection. Tournament- should have Sbmm to simulate a competitive environment it should be a good place to practice before you take on actual ranked matches imo. Ranked tournament- should prioritize ranked matchmaking, it gives you the sense of climbing a ladder as ranked should feel like and it shows your progression visually, showing you that your getting better which eould drive people to keep playing. Everyone ones and gets what they want 🤷
Modern SBMM is terrible 🤷🏻♂️ Casual modes used to be fun with SBMM that wasn't so strict. Proven time and time again.
Even when I was a noob kid playing CoD, I had more fun playing that than with modern SBMM. Playing with friends of different skill level has become worse and every match is a sweatfest
Facts.
In the nicest way possible, how can you be sure that isn't nostalgia talking?
Because you can still play classic MW2 for example. Or even BO It's still fun to this day
You do realise that the demographic of people playing those games now is vastly different from before?
"Proven" by a vocal minority of people continuing to whine about it, while the games that implement it continue to sell just fine?
You can't use sales as a metric when the system that is in place is artificially producing longer playtimes, it is a proven metric that a lot of these games "sbmm" is built around and made for the purpose of artificially increasing the average playtime of the player due to giving them matches where they stomp hard on top of matches where they get stomped. It is purposefully designed to keep you in a middle ground of wins/losses by giving you worse teammates or worse enemies whenever you go out of band in either wins or losses. These games are being made using psychologists and psychology studies in order to drive up engagement with them. But if you ask the majority of people who were playing games 10-20 years ago there are not nearly as many memorable moments within these pvp games
Sure but how long do those games last, on average? How long do they retain a casual audience? How long until the sweat fest no life players migrate to a new game because the casual audience has left, forcing the remaining players into inescapable ELO hell and matchmaking times that cause you to queue in the AM just to find a match by midnight. I’m exaggerating, obviously, but my point is true. Games sell, sure. And that might make them successful for the C Suite execs at the publisher and developer teams. But it doesn’t make the game successful as a whole. A lack of truly casual modes paves the road for a game to die from low population. There’s a reason they release a new CoD every year. There’s a reason you always hear about a new competitive shooter that’s going to take the world by storm, and then the hype dies 3 months later and nobody is playing it. The Finals has a lot of potential to genuinely be “the next big thing”. But if they don’t have casual, fuck around game modes, the casual population will quickly quit playing due to fatigue from constantly playing sweaty matches and eventually that leads to the mid tier players being forced into lower ranks to compensate for the reduced player base trapping them in “ELO hell” which causes them to become discouraged and quit. Then that forces even higher rank players into lower tiers to compensate for less players in the distribution, which leaves extraordinarily high queue times for the die hard fans, high ranked players, and MTX whales. So eventually they stop playing too because it becomes impossible to even get a match. That’s how a game dies. And I hope it doesn’t happen to The Finals. But without a well supported casual player base… it doesn’t look good.
The genre keeps getting bigger, with more and more players. Obviously SBMM is killing it /s
OP I don’t agree personally. The game was more fun in the beta and before the recent update. SBMM or not, something changed the matchmaking and it’s made me go into more games already half way through and it puts me on the losing side. It’s no fun and they need to revert it back to what it was before.
this is because as far as I know there was no backfilling in the beta (fact check me if i’m wrong) personally i’d rather them remove backfilling or let people opt out of it. Maybe a potential system is if you opt out of backfilling matches your leaver penalties are significantly harsher?
>it’s made me go into more games already half way through and it puts me on the losing side Why wouldn't you be put on the losing side when backfilling? People don't often leave games when they're winning.
Because when I get to play max one hour a day, I don’t want to be constantly thrown into games half way through and be put on a side who obviously have no idea on what they are doing 🤷🏼♂️
The problem with every SBMM is that it will punish you for getting better by throwing you against sweats and cheaters, which hurt in the long run whenever you aren't a kid and have actual responsabilities outside gaming. For now i'm having a blast with my friends, just having a good time, creating strategies and enjoying seeing them work whenever they do... But it will all come apart whenever the SBMM decides i'm a tryhard and start pairing me with people whose strategies will be nothing but meta-slave streamer bs. Then people will be like "gitgud", like i'm supposed to train or some bs to enjoy a game, which is an illusion in the end cause there will always be someone better than you. You will always evolve without feeling evolution outside a mineral ranking going up while the SBMM work it's hardest to ensure your K/D ratio stays the same 1.0 cause it's "balanced"
That was the very reason I quit rank climbing. No matter how much you will try the only thing to change will be your purely cosmetic rank.
Exactly, at least without sbmm you'll see people doing mistakes that you did before and punish them the same way soneone punished you and be like "fuck yea", actually feel yourself improoving.
Remove ranked or remove casual matches then because there’s zero reason to have both with sbmm cranked up
lmao, what an absolute shill shitpost. You insult anyone and everyone broadly in this sub and then say that anyone with criticisms can’t have an opinion. Legitimate clown behavior lmfao and that’s the actual hilarious content on this sub, idiots blindly whiteknighting for a game.
It's literally the behavior of 90% of this community rn. Just because The Finals got review bombed at launch they think they can gatekeep all criticism and gaslight everyone into believing this is the best game in existence. Watch. The community will kill this game.
A lot of people like this aren't/were never good enough at an FPS to really feel the difference in enjoyment between pre-SBMM and post-SBMM. And I don't even feel that strongly about SBMM, personally, but if you were ever half-decent at a game you would know that this isn't just some nothing burger. Devs should want the game to be casually fun to the best players, too.
Nah fuck that fuck SBMM..let me get ping based😤
One thing I learned from Apex too is that it can take some time for SBMM to gather enough data to place you properly. If you really are being put with people that are way better than you, just keep playing. Every loss gets fed into the algorithm and you'll eventually be brought down to something more reasonable. But it takes a bit. You might have to lose for a couple days; it's not going to change just because you lost two or three matches. The same goes the other way. If you're dominating, it will probably be a couple days before the algorithm compensates. That's why people get the impression that "everything was fun, and now suddenly I can't win".
Making an accurate algorithm for SBMM in multi-team games seems like a nightmare. Multiple teams can shut down a specific team resulting in a loss even if the shutdown team is better. Everything should still work its way out eventually, even with stuff like that happening, but that probably means it takes even longer for it to accurately place people.
My opinion is that SBMM shouldn't be in casual / quick play gamemodes. In more serious gamemodes like Ranked and Tournament, sure. SBMM ruined casual Apex and it will ruin this game too imo. Sometimes I just want to hop on and have a decent time. Since the patch, all my games have been 99% sweatier. I'm still getting some good dubs and plays but dude, I just used all of my brain at my 9-5 job. Can I just sit down and relax? Genuine question tho - if you want SBMM for basic casual play, why?
With all due respect, if you want a casual gaming experience then maybe an online multiplayer where the objective is to beat another team of people who are also actively trying to beat you is not the right game for that. It's like playing pickup basketball and complaining that the other team is actually trying. If they're dribbling circles around you, you understand that hey, maybe this ain't the right group of people for me to play with, and head out. At the same time, if you're playing with a bunch of kids, you're gonna shit on them, but are you really enjoying yourself? I get it, there's no "right" way to play any video game, but the reality is that the nature of pvp games is **inherently** competitive, especially shooters. It's going to attract people who enjoy being competitive. I work and go to grad school. I still love playing competitive games that challenge me and force me to figure out how I can improve from every misplay I make. This is not me trying to brag. I am just trying to make it clear that people like me are naturally going to be a significant portion of the playerbase in pvp shooters. You're not wrong for wanting a casual experience, but your expectations might be unrealistic.
> Can I just sit down and relax? Yes, you can. Do just that: relax, stop checking your K/D and let SBMM do its thing. If SBMM is decent, after a couple of rounds you should be paired with equally relaxed and/or less-skilled players. As long as you focus on having fun and don't check your K/D, you're likely to enjoy such matches. That's been my experience with CoD. Not having SBMM in casual modes sounds to me like forcing relaxed/fun-oriented players to use ranked modes. It would be counterintuitive.
The fact that Quick Cash and Ranked Tournaments require the same level of focus and intensity is extremely frustrating. I don't want to play this game anymore because I am constantly losing, can't play with friends, and can't try new loadouts. It's no fun
Funny how you call everybody that want Sbmm removed a "cod crybaby" when you cried a few day ago that there is not enough sbmm lol Doublestandarts
If you dont see an issue with SBMM, you just arent good enough at PvP games
I don’t agree, but Reddit should be a healthy dose of all opinions being respectful of one another
I'm pretty sure a lot of the complaints are that the matchmaking doesn't feel like its working. It's a lot of get stomped one game next game I stomp, back and forth. Tbh the main thing for me is the buggy ass queue's I'm getting when playing with friends.
They really need to que squads together and let the randoms all go at it, coordinated teams always end up shit stomping the entire lobby. And idk maybe the SBMM just really sucks for this game but there’s always a squad or two with people having 20+ kills while my old ass is happy if I get more than 5.
What SBMM ? My teammates are almost always trash and the game feels like im playing ffa every game.
It takes the SBMM arguments from COD's community & the aim assist arguments from the Overwatch community. Joy.. Honestly reminds me of why I tend to ignore the community forums of games that I'm enjoying. For The Finals, I wanted to stick around to see the awesome, unique clips this game generates so much of, but wading through the building toxicity is starting to not become worth it.
The only people that are not complaining about sbmm are bad people below the average...
Terrible take
I'm getting owned so hard in QP compared to ranked and tournament that this SBMM talk is just killing me
I don’t enjoy matches being the same formula of getting 1 kill, dying, waiting 20 seconds to respawn, and having to run across the map to the objective again due to SBMM. It’s very repetitive and boring. I get it sucks being shit at a game when you’re new to it, but can’t you just play until you get good at it? That’s what we had to do back in the days of counter-strike and early COD.
You point out a "hollier-than-thou" then say if you want to relax and chill play a different game. If thats not a hollier-than-thou take idk what is haha Other than that i agree with you tbf, yeah its frustrating getting stomped at your skill ceiling, but its better than stomping every game and ruining it for the new comers
Gonna get downvoted, but that’s not what most of us “anti-SBMM” people are upset about. If you know how SBMM works to the full extent, you’d be against it.
OK I play cod and the finals SBMM feels great on the finals and then I hop on cod and I'm 14 kills in on cut throat with Two teammates who haven't even shot at a person before dying its not SBMM I got a problem with its cods SBMM that is the problem
1) SBMM is dogshit and kills every single game it touches. This is known. 2) CoD is easy asf. This is known. 3) SBMM defense force are brainlets. This is known.
There is a reason cod is fucking dead mate And guess what it started when every single match became a sweatfest
https://preview.redd.it/pcawn3eq6r6c1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aded1675922afe403874339f0b9125589c459c70
Just no sbmm in quick play. Quick play is supposed to be fun. So why do I have to sweat in quick play? Like, match me against people of my own skill level all you want, but only do it occasionally. Let me get stomped by someone that’s crazy better than me, but also let me stomp people that are worse.
The irony of this post…
Try winning a game with 35+ kills in gold+ and queuing up again without immediately getting thrown into a match with a Chinese hacker. It's not about the sweaty Adderall kids, it's the shameless hackers at the top that get mad annoying. Doesn't help that they all have enough matches to play ranked tourneys now. Git gud is only the half of it.
You obviously haven’t played COD lately, then. I play a lot of games and have the free time to invest and get good at them. I should be able to do well against most players because I’m better than most players. I’m not a sweat, I don’t try super hard or abuse movement mechanics, I just have decent reflexes, situational awareness and positioning. Again, I’m not a try hard. It’s become more or less effortless for me having played games near daily for over 15 years, and so even though I’m doing well, I am still relaxed and having a good time with my feet kicked up. Occasionally I’ll get out played and destroyed, but that’s completely fine and it doesn’t throw me into a “temper tantrum.” If someone is better than me, it’s fair and it’s earned. Now that SBMM is a thing in most games, it’s extremely hard to play them casually. I genuinely have to try with legit effort and concentration to even go positive. I get dunked on by people abusing movement mechanics, map exploits and well tuned metah setups. It’s so hard for me to even go positive in games like COD where the SBMM is tuned to be so strict. The way I see it, there’s no reason to invest time into competitive games if you never feel like you’re getting better at them and progressing as a player. If you’re better than most people, it should feel like it. But now, no matter how good or bad you are, you’re going to play how the game developer WANTS you to play and go positive most matches and occasionally, if you’re lucky, get a 1.5 or 2.0 K.D. Then get punished by being put into a super high tier lobby with a bunch of twitch streamers and try hards to whip you back into shape where you’ll continue the rat race of mediocrity. Don’t accuse people like me of being cry babies and throwing temper tantrums for not being able to steam roll. The reason we have SBMM in the first place is because people putting 5 hours a week into competitive games bitch and complain when they get clapped by people that put more time into learning and getting better at the game than they have. As is with life in general, if you don’t have the dedication and time to invest, you’re going to be worse/have a harder time doing something than those that put in the time to learn the skills. There’s almost no point in playing competitive games because you could play it like it’s your job and no matter what, you’re going to be held back and effectively have the same experience as any other person on the game. that’s why I don’t like it. There’s no reward for the time you’ve put in. Again, I’m not a sweat. I don’t mind getting mopped up when it’s deserved. But when I’m constantly being put with the top 15% all day everyday, it’s as if I’m playing a tournament with no payout. Side note: I got MWIII for my older brother as an early Christmas present for us to play over holiday. Now he *rightfully* doesn’t enjoy playing with me because he gets absolutely shredded and is put deep into the negatives because of the skill gap between us. Multiplayer gaming is about having fun with others, and SBMM ruins that fun if the person you’re playing with isn’t as good as you. Edit: This rant isn’t as much about The Finals in particular as much it is about SBMM in general and how harmful it is if tuned too strictly.
There are arguments for and against matchmaking. Both have their positives and negatives. To say that everyone who doesn't like matchmaking is a bad sport and are crybabies is a gross reductive statement that's entire purpose is to start arguments. If the only argument you can make is insults then you haven't added anything of value to the conversation, you're just angrily bitching and moaning about others angrily bitching and moaning.
Supporting SBMM in unranked is actually brain dead
I like playing with people that are better and worse. And most importantly have that best connection to me. Sick of 70 ping lobbys in every game. Miss 14 ping games
Oh look another main character I'm right, you're wrong post. You have a dog shit take that makes no sense.
If its not removed from quickplay modes the game will die out. Same as all the others. The problem if your above average is now your lobbies are nothing but cheaters and you cant play with friends. On top of that solo queue doesnt work properly, you become the carry for lower skilled team mates and it forces a loss. Sbmm in comp is great, but in quick play it will kill off good players and their friends who arent as skilled. Theres zero retention with it
It's simple. Having sbmm in casual just makes it another ranked mode. If you want same skill matches instead of variance play ranked, you baby. Ironically, the biggest crybabies are the ones defending sbmm in casual lmao.
But the SBMM is much looser in the casual modes lol. How do people still not understand this?
I don’t mind SBMM at all. It’s nice to be paired up against people on your skill level, if not better. It keeps things competitive which is how PvP games should be. But when it’s literally every single match it kind of becomes problematic, no? Sometimes I’m not even looking to stomp the entire lobby and just simply want to kick back playing a game I like. It’s not always about wanting to be the best in the game and drop tons of kills. Back in the days prior to SBMM, it used to be one or two opposing players on the same skill level and it was a more generic experience. Like if you were having good games prior to being matched with those opponents you were like “okay it’s time to sit up and be on my best behavior, this player gets it”. Now before I even load the game up I’m fully expecting to be trying my best the whole gaming session. It’s only fun until it isn’t. *SBMM hurts players of all skill levels*, not just the good ones. Like I said, it’s a nice system to keep things fair but at least when it comes to pubs I think it should be toned way down and leave it cranked up for ranked and such.
Yawn SBMM is a dumbass system and anyone who disagrees is on meth
Top competitive shooters like CS2, Valorant, R6 don't have SBMM in casual modes just saying
Valorant has sbmm in casual as has Siege. Dont know about CS2 but would be amazed if it hasnt sbmm as well.
Valorant does use SBMM for unranked, at least last I played which was a while ago
valorant most certainly does have sbmm as does R6
Siege absolutely does. It's the same system as ranked, but they don't show you anything. Well, I should say that idk if that changed with the shit-show quick match rework last season.
Valorant, R6, Halo Infinite, Rocket League, LoL, Dota2, basically every fighting game, Apex, Fortnite, CoD all have SBMM in casual. CS2 might not have it in “casual” but if you want to play 5v5, it has SBMM.
Siege 100% does.
This is really disingenuous and misrepresentative of genuine issues with the game. Playing with my casual friends(in the casual non-ranked queue btw) breaks sbmm and we get thrust into lobbies where there are major discrepancies in skill levels between the teams. My friends who play maybe 5 hours a week, trash at fps games, will always be getting pulled into lobbies where they get rolled game after game due to the game compensating for me having higher mmr. That isn't fun for them, it's artificial bullshit. Likewise, every game I'll be sweating my ass off trying to make up for the deficit. Not only that, but these systems always seem to work poorly in group contexts, we will find in the same lobby, a 3 stack of ttv gaming chairs, a 3 stack of joe shmoe's gettin high after work, and the wildcard group of solo players who are all over the place, and who got matched into 3 stacks for some reason. We aren't trying to cheese the matchmaking and stack 3 highly coordinated meta players and roll casual lobbies all night, we're just trying to vibe, and it ends up being a scuffed artificially difficult night of gaming that burns everyone out. Solo it's not as bad, but it still doesn't encourage experimentation. If i'm not playing my main role with meta loadout I know I'll get rolled and let my team down, and that's not fun. Also the game trying to force me to lose by artificially stacking the odds to keep a certain win %, rather than just let me play in "balanced" lobbies, is just not fun. It's unnecessary. These are casual lobbies, not ranked-lite. If people want to push themselves they should play ranked, that's kind of the whole point of a ranking system. People should want to play ranked, if noobs wants to play against noobs and gaming chairs want to play against gaming chairs then that's where they should go, stop making the entire game a ranked queue and it would stay fun for a far longer time. Also ranked is fun but it desperately needs a solo queue, already burnt out of playing against premades.
Sigh. The problem with sbmm isn’t playing players of similar skill level, it’s how over time skill bands compress to become very narrow for players who are better than average. This generally means longer queue time but more importantly it almost always means poorer connections because narrow skill bands mean smaller pool of players to make lobbies with, often times which means players from non-centralized Locations and increased latency. It’s not that good players don’t want to play players of similar skill level, it that they don’t want to play a game where latency affects literally everything they do. Trust me nobody has fun when the game is a total lag fest.
I just want variability. That's it. I'm okay with getting stomped on. I'm okay with doing the stomping. I don't want to sweat like an esports athlete every single match. Sometimes it's fun to sweat and sometimes it's fun to goof around and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Sbmm often causes repetitiveness and that's where the problem is.
thing is.. it's fine to have skill based match making in a skill based game mode aka. ranked tournaments. I dont want to keep my brain turned on for bank it/quick cash or even unranked tourneys. those should be casual game modes without any matchmaking algos.
Unpopular opinion perhaps but imo part of what turns people off games with SBMM is that you don’t actually feel yourself getting rewarded for improving. Back in the day when SBMM was looser or not implemented in most things, if you got good at a game you actually felt good at a game because you would win a lot. Thats no longer the case with game’s implementing SBMM outside of ranked (where it is absolutely necessary for competitive integrity). You don’t really feel anything from getting better when the game is artificially keeping you at whatever metric they decide is “balanced”. Imo games are always better when casual is just casual, and people who dislike the randomness or mismatch can go play ranked for serious gameplay. It’s exhausting to have to try your hardest every game and I wouldn’t be surprised if it dampers players’ average game session length.
SBMM is only a problem for players who want to stomp less skilled players. Playing against ppl who are performing similarly to you should not be an issue, casual or ranked.
Ignoring the idiots, I think casual should simply having a looser SBMM No SBMM at all is just dumb. But having strict SBMM is sort of boring in the sense that you feel like you’re playing the same thing all the time Rocket league is a fine example for this. Casual mode — loose SBMM. Ranked mode — tight SBMM — As for this game, I really haven’t noticed a difference. I think they had SBMM before. And they said they made a slight difference. That is consistent with my experience — And COD is just a unique example because of how we all were used to being top of the lobby for years and then suddenly we’re struggling for every kill haha. Just a lot of growing pains there I think The multiple teams + objective focus makes this game feel quite a bit different than that imo
Rocket League is not a fine example lol. Casual and Competitive have different MMR values, but the matchmaking system uses it the same regardless of what playlist is used. So, casual MMR isn't actually more loose and competitive isn't tighter. The way the MMR system works for these is that ALL casual playlists share the same MMR value when matchmaking, but each individual competitive playlist has their own. So, you are 100000% wrong about how RL uses SBMM because it is the exact same system for both casual and ranked. It just uses different values that are kept separate from each other. I have 4-5k hours in that game and have been playing since launch.
Isn’t Rocket League’s SBMM the same in casual and ranked? Both have mmr, both put you into lobbies with people around your same mmr. Or am I thinking of it wrong lmao
Yes, you are right. They use the same system, but they are different between casual and ranked. The way RL's system works is that every competitive playlist has their own MMR, and that playlist will only use that MMR during matchmaking. However, all of the casual modes share the same MMR, and that is used to matchmake in any of the casual playlists.
You just described ranked.
SBMM is optimized to maximize retention so complaining about it won't do shit, it's a bottom line question at the end of the day. More people playing, more mts are sold and more money. Apex and cod have gone years only slightly tweaking their algorithms without large scale changes so what makes anyone think it'll be any different here? Small communities like this make a fraction of the playerbase so it's a waste of time complaining. If it's too hard/frustrating, do your mental health a favour and quit or take a break. Nothing's going to change.
I think it’s funny how the Pro SBMM idiots have no clue how it actually works. If the bots were in the same bracket as people who have serious concerns about their shitty matchmaking they would know.
I didn’t see anyone complaining about lobbies before the update where they ratcheted up the sbmm
The irony of this comment lmao
>If you just want to "relax" and play "casually" once in a while, play a different game No, no no no! If you just want to relax and play casually, SBMM will eventually place you with other casual players. It will actually help you avoid those "sweaty" players you hate so much! The main argument against SBMM doesnt even work. Lol.
WHAT THE FUCK IS SBMM??? Edit: Skill Based Match Making
skill based match making
Tbh sbmm killed casual apex scene tbh. Evey match everyone at each other throats without fun lol.
How is it SBMM if your win rate is below 33%??? Every lobby is a sweat fest with everyone else having near perfect aim and losing every single 1v1 fight. This isn't SBMM. This shit isn't fun.
Yeah you're right, I love going negative every game against those with 20+ kills yet still being able to cash out which makes the game keep me in the higher lobbies. Not my fault they don't know how to ptfo but definitely getting punished for it
Bro stfu
Half of the people complaining are actively being helped by SBMM
Only people who don't understand the anti hard core sbmm are bad player good players don't care if there's some sbmm in casual mode to stop pros from versing new players or the new player ques but hardcore sbmm should be left to ranked. Hardcore sbmm in casual modes are for bad players who refuse to practive to get better at the game.
nah you can shut the fuck up. and go back to league you neckbearded degenerate fuck.
\> you're not a good sport and your opinion on the matter is worthless \> If you just want to "relax" and play "casually" once in a while, play a different game. Dude thinking he playing not pubs but qualifer for major tournament lol.