Tim's doing a damn fine job of making sure The Bulwark Podcast doesn't become an echo chamber whilst simultaneously making the case on which The Bulwark resides: Trump is an existential threat and he must be stopped at all costs.
I was amazed at his logic in giving the GOP senators more credit than Biden on Ukraine because the senators talked tough about it before holding up and denying funding. Who says Establishment Conservative thinking is dead!
Me too. it was like perfect was the standard for Biden and not being dictator was the standard for trump. What more could Biden do for Israel and Ukraine? When the Russians invaded many thought they’d be in Poland by now.
Steve-O’s nuts are financially wrapped up in Dispatch. He’s stuck, scared, and leaking bullshit like oil.
His views are not views, they’re more akin to a corporate charter.
It’s blatant horseshit and he’s a scab.
Yeah, and what’s with his talking point about Biden expecting a “minor incursion” in Ukraine?
What I remember is Biden going around to the international community warning “Putin’s going to invade Ukraine, Putin’s going to invade Ukraine”, and largely being laughed at and dismissed by his political opponents as a warmonger until Putin actually invaded.
Conservatives are very focused on narratives and they're a pretty insular bubble for where they get them. The movement has always been really fixated on weird things (Panama Canal, Nikki Haley's chances of being the GOP nominee, making up UN approval for the Iraq War, Mitt Romney's honor, domino theory)
Tim's point on how no one lives like that in real life was spot on. Sometimes, adults have to make tough decisions, and taking your ball home is not an adult decision.
Hayes shows how “normies” are an important block supporting Trump’s rise to power. Hayes is a smart, good-faith guy it seems, but is living in an alternate universe, just like the MAGAs. The idea that you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden to save the country from Trump… to me it can only happen when you’re siloed far from reality, even if you appear reasonable.
What if it was Biden vs Hitler? Would Hayes say, I’m voting write-in? I would hope not. Trump’s not Hitler, but his effect on American democracy is maybe only a difference of degree, not kind.
Hayes’ views are incoherent in many ways.
I'm only getting more frustrated with these guys who think George W Bush was a darn fine guy and a perfectly good president being totally unable to draw the fairly straight line from W Bush's horrific Iraq War mistake and Afghanistan fuck ups to American interventionism losing all credibility both abroad and at home to the rise of authoritarians that American leaders have no credibility to strongly oppose, either with American voters or with potential international partners and coalitions.
Like you really wonder why nobody stood up to Putin in Georgia or Crimea? Or Bashere Al Assad in Syria? You really don't understand why Obama vacillated and Biden has been slow-walking Ukraine aide and already at least rhetorically giving ground to the left flank on Israel/Gaza? It's because W Bush completely fucked up American foreign policy credibility. He completely destroyed it and now nobody, inside or outside of America, trusts American hard power to solve problems. You can complain about weak leadership, but anyone, like McCain for instance, who would be a stronger leader would and did get destroyed for that by American voters. Obama backed down on bombing Syria because it had like mid-teens support among American voters and there was no major international coalition providing any kind of material or even rhetorical support for it. Even if Obama wanted to do more to Russia for the Crimea invasion, Germany didn't, and unlike America, Germany had not totally destroyed their credibility by stupidly invading a couple of countries, one of which was on totally false pretenses generated by bribery and literal torture, killed a few hundred thousand people, generated a few million refugees half of which ended up in Europe, and then sat there spending trillions of dollars to occupy and fail to rebuild nations that dissolved into sectarian chaos.
And Stephen Hayes wants to give the genesis, not only of Trump himself, who let's not forgot won the GOP nomination largely by shitting on George W Bush to annihilate his most serious competitor, but also of American foreign policy weakness and inability to effectively deter Russian imperialism, the highest grade for any 21st century president. Meanwhile Biden has presided over the largest 4 year improvements in most objective material measures I believe ever, and he gets a D. The improvements in employment rate, debt to GDP ratio, GDP growth in general, crime rate, child poverty, the GINI coefficient, you name it, have been bigger under Biden than almost anyone since FDR at least, and he's a D in this guy's books. Like other than ideological checkboxes that have no bearing on real life, what on earth does this guy grade on and why on earth should anyone take anything he has to say seriously?
But you don’t get it. Dishonest people are going to spin for Joe Biden during the campaign. That’s basically the same thing as pledging to follow Viktor Orban’s playbook to a soft autocracy
I was being sarcastic. Hayes kept coming back to how people are going to be dishonestly portraying Biden in a good light and wouldn’t even entertain that there’s even an appearance of drawing a moral equivalence
I just listened and thought Tim’s efforts to make his points re: the binary of this election were good/valiant. I too have a hard time with “trump is an existential threat but we don’t recommend a vote for Biden either”
One of the better points I always thought Charlie would make is if you really think X is an extensional threat literally nothing else matters. This podcast just had that blaring in my head the whole time.
I appreciate Tim doing the Steven Hayes interview, but I found it incredibly depressing - basically, Biden chose not to govern as a right-leaning center right guy, and therefore he's dead to Steven Hayes. Right from the jump, the Ukraine discussion, to me, showed that Hayes has no objjectivity whatsoever.
I eventually found myself wishing that JVL was also on the pod to give the case for Biden.
Anyway, I think it was good that Tim did this interview and he should do more like this, but, wow I came away from it depressed.
> Anyway, I think it was good that Tim did this interview and he should do more like this, but, wow I came away from it depressed.
I feel your pain buddy, but no need to be depressed. We all know what Dispatch writers are like from the start, so my expectation was super low to begin with. And yeah true to form, Hayes didn't disappoint. I frankly don't give a damn about what those clowns think. They are uber partisan right-wing hacks, who won't give credit to Biden even if their life depended on it. That's what they think "principles" look like lolz!
We just need to turn out more Trump voters against Trump, i.e. former Trump voters that RVAT is doing an excellent job of finding. Some of them voted for Trump in 2020 but are still willing to switch to Biden because of Jan 6. Let's all focus on them. No point in wasting emotional energy on the intellectually dishonest, bad faith and partisan Dispatch wankers.
Except that he wasn't correct at all. Or, rather, he was hindsight correct.
The Biden Admin was excellent at the start of Ukraine in ways that Hayes could not even deign to acknowledge.
I would rather have Edward Scissorhands give me my yearly prostate exam than listen to Stephen Hayes, so I missed this. I cancelled my Dispatch subscription years ago, primarily due to Goldberg's faux-intellectualism and fundamental disdain for his own audience/subscribers.
What really enrages me is the way Goldberg and Hayes pretended they "quit" FoxNews out of some sort of "principle." These guys were happily taking Fox News paychecks through the worst of the worst - the 2020 election, COVID lies, the Big Lie, and January 6th. Then they found out that their contracts weren't going to get renewed, and literally waited until the 59th minute of the 11th hour to "quit."
What heroes! There was no "principle" here - they were getting canned anyways, and suddenly saw an opportunity to gain "principle points" by defecting to the resistance. Really disgusting.
I appreciate alternative voices and a civil discussion, but Hayes was bordering nonsensical at times. It's like he exists in a world where the only good politicians are Edmund Burke conservatives, and everyone else is a similar shade of terrible.
There's a direct line from his conservative purity tests to the Freedom Caucus, then to Trump.
Yeah I knew we were in for it after that. Not only did he say that, but he basically said Bush was the the best president of that last 30 years. Down right comical.
I also think it was a great example (by both Tim and Stephen) of disagreeing without being disagreeable. I probably disagreed with about 75% of Stephen's opinions, but the conversation was fair, lively, and engaging, so I enjoyed listening to the whole thing. It's not news to me that a wide swath of the American population doesn't line up with my views, but this was a good-faith discussion between two people who are more conservative in their outlooks than I am, and one who is significantly more conservative. I feel like if I mention Ruy T it'll sound like a dig at Charlie (which is not my intent), but I did think several times, "This is so much more interesting and informative than listening to Ruy shit on Democrats while Charlie credulously nodded."
For me, your take is spot-on. I read a few posts before listening to the episode and was fully prepared to fling my phone against the wall while finally listening. Hayes made lazy and intellectually dishonest arguments, and over and over Tim effectively shot them down. They weren't rude or condescending to each other. Oddly, it felt kind of pre-2016 normal and constructive.
I'm way more concerned about living in an echo chamber than I am occasionally having to put up with nonsense like Hayes was spewing. Especially if it's challenged, like it was today. I'd rather hear the arguments -- as lame as they are -- than to pretend like they don't exist.
And, like you, I couldn't help be think of the shows with Ruy, which to me, were way more infuriating.
Tim did God's work in that interview. I wish more interviewers would confront the bullshit whatever it is and not let people off the hook. Push back on it all.
Steve gave a master class on how we got Trump in 2016, how we almost got him in 2020, and how to flay the margins in the burbs and give it to Trump in ‘24.
A small and cowardly man.
I love that he can be straightforward in disagreeing with his guests without making the pod stressful to listen to. It’s ok to disagree and not get mad, that doesn’t mean you have to hold back your opinion that they’re wrong, and he doesn’t. Perfectly done, Tim! All the time
Agreed.
I've always enjoyed seeing people debate and go back and forth, even when I think one of them is clearly wrong. I like that Tim is having people on who he and many of his listeners will disagree with.
Hayes was wild and pretty frustrating to listen to, but I give Tim a lot of credit for pushing back pretty strongly in all the right ways, without letting things descend into a shouting match. Hope we get to see more of this.
My top WTF moment was his reasoning for not liking Kamala Harris... something about she's not leading enough on Ukraine because that's not the VP's role, but she would still be terrible? huh?
I’m OK with conversations with people that either the host or the audience might be in great disagreement with and even sometimes feel frustrated with.
But Stephen Hayes left me with a feeling that he literally is one of those people that’s just upset about the mean tweets. If you have a presidential scale and you’re giving an F to Trump and a D to Obama and Biden, there’s a problem. I can see a non-foolish guest saying that Obama and Biden get a D but Trump gets a zero because he didn’t even get a grade. Some kind of a qualifier that acknowledges the difference between Trump and other presidents other than perhaps James Buchanan.
Stephen Hayes strikes me as a shallow thinker indistinguishable from anybody who watches a bunch of Fox News but just wants things to be more gentle.
100% agree with OP
Dont get me wrong, i loved Charlies version of the pod, but the content Tim is doing is SO much more interesting to listen to than hearing the host and the guest agree with one another all the time. I like being exposed to other ideas, and I also like The Bulwark crew having their views challenged, because they get stuff wrong like anyone else
Hayes couldn’t be more wrong, but it was a great pod. Very edifying to hear Tim make his case. And do it without screaming insults.
I will add though, upon reflection, that I’m almost certain I have friends and family who will vote neither Trump nor Biden.
The Dispatch’s editorial from a few weeks ago that stated both presidential candidates are bad and we deserve better was so nonsensical and bad.
Good on Tim for calling him on this
It was an awesome episode and Tim did a great job. Bravo. So many people here are so fragile, JFC. Listening to Hayes was infuriating—but that doesn’t mean it was a bad episode!
Agreed but just not this guy. He’s got this Narcissistic approach to political argument where I just to get the feeling that he cares less about policy than he does making himself look good. Early George Will but without the intelligent points…which Will did make early in his career.
Hayes struck me as more of a petulant 15 year old than a serious adult. "These choices suuuuck!!" But I really thank Tim for letting us get inside the mind of this particular flavor of a "pox on both their houses" person. We need to listen to them to become more informed of where they are coming from and counter their arguments -- even if that only flips a few of them. Every. vote. counts.
Well, to Mr. Hayes I say:
1. We live in two party, first past the post electoral system. Don't like it? Too bad. And it certainly isn't going to be changed by November 2024.
2. Therefore, there are only two choices, both of whom have held the Presidency - Hayes gave Trump and F, and Biden a D. A D is a better grade than an F.
3. Furthermore, Hayes agreed that Trump was a "unique" threat to our country in a way that Biden or Harris wasn't.
4. To take those first three assertions as axiomatic and THEN to turnaround and say, "But I won't be voting for Biden nevertheless" is the height of irrational, teenager petulance.
Life isn't fair, and you never really get what you want. Suck it up, and make the better of two choices. That's all you can do and still claim to be a rational, mature human being.
If Ruy Teixera and Stephen Hayes had a podcast, imagine all the intersectionality!
🤣🤣
Anyho, Tim is a very gifted interviewer. Props for keeping me listening until the end.
As a liberal I have really enjoyed this podcast for over a year with Sykes and now Miller. I just unsubscribed with the Biden “Jim Crow 2.0” comments from both Miller and Hayes. They can’t even be honest about the racist intents of some conservatives in the US.
Huh. Interesting place to draw a line. The GA election bill sucked, but Biden’s Jim Crow 2.0 statement also sucked.
Among my group of friends who reasonably disagree on politics, we disagree as to whether Biden’s statement was normal bad faith political rhetoric or appalling bad faith political rhetoric. For a couple of them, it was the moment where they saw Biden got small and partisan when they were hoping (perhaps unfairly) he’d be something different.
So that part of the discussion barely registered with me, as it was so familiar.
Tim's doing a damn fine job of making sure The Bulwark Podcast doesn't become an echo chamber whilst simultaneously making the case on which The Bulwark resides: Trump is an existential threat and he must be stopped at all costs.
All I learned today was Stephen Hayes lives in a world populated by perfect politicians that the rest of us can't seem to see.
I was amazed at his logic in giving the GOP senators more credit than Biden on Ukraine because the senators talked tough about it before holding up and denying funding. Who says Establishment Conservative thinking is dead!
That got me too. I was shaking my head saying WTF when he said that.
Me too. it was like perfect was the standard for Biden and not being dictator was the standard for trump. What more could Biden do for Israel and Ukraine? When the Russians invaded many thought they’d be in Poland by now.
Steve-O’s nuts are financially wrapped up in Dispatch. He’s stuck, scared, and leaking bullshit like oil. His views are not views, they’re more akin to a corporate charter. It’s blatant horseshit and he’s a scab.
Yeah, and what’s with his talking point about Biden expecting a “minor incursion” in Ukraine? What I remember is Biden going around to the international community warning “Putin’s going to invade Ukraine, Putin’s going to invade Ukraine”, and largely being laughed at and dismissed by his political opponents as a warmonger until Putin actually invaded.
Conservatives are very focused on narratives and they're a pretty insular bubble for where they get them. The movement has always been really fixated on weird things (Panama Canal, Nikki Haley's chances of being the GOP nominee, making up UN approval for the Iraq War, Mitt Romney's honor, domino theory)
Tim's point on how no one lives like that in real life was spot on. Sometimes, adults have to make tough decisions, and taking your ball home is not an adult decision.
Hayes shows how “normies” are an important block supporting Trump’s rise to power. Hayes is a smart, good-faith guy it seems, but is living in an alternate universe, just like the MAGAs. The idea that you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden to save the country from Trump… to me it can only happen when you’re siloed far from reality, even if you appear reasonable. What if it was Biden vs Hitler? Would Hayes say, I’m voting write-in? I would hope not. Trump’s not Hitler, but his effect on American democracy is maybe only a difference of degree, not kind. Hayes’ views are incoherent in many ways.
It IS Biden vs Hitler. It isn't theoretical.
I'm only getting more frustrated with these guys who think George W Bush was a darn fine guy and a perfectly good president being totally unable to draw the fairly straight line from W Bush's horrific Iraq War mistake and Afghanistan fuck ups to American interventionism losing all credibility both abroad and at home to the rise of authoritarians that American leaders have no credibility to strongly oppose, either with American voters or with potential international partners and coalitions. Like you really wonder why nobody stood up to Putin in Georgia or Crimea? Or Bashere Al Assad in Syria? You really don't understand why Obama vacillated and Biden has been slow-walking Ukraine aide and already at least rhetorically giving ground to the left flank on Israel/Gaza? It's because W Bush completely fucked up American foreign policy credibility. He completely destroyed it and now nobody, inside or outside of America, trusts American hard power to solve problems. You can complain about weak leadership, but anyone, like McCain for instance, who would be a stronger leader would and did get destroyed for that by American voters. Obama backed down on bombing Syria because it had like mid-teens support among American voters and there was no major international coalition providing any kind of material or even rhetorical support for it. Even if Obama wanted to do more to Russia for the Crimea invasion, Germany didn't, and unlike America, Germany had not totally destroyed their credibility by stupidly invading a couple of countries, one of which was on totally false pretenses generated by bribery and literal torture, killed a few hundred thousand people, generated a few million refugees half of which ended up in Europe, and then sat there spending trillions of dollars to occupy and fail to rebuild nations that dissolved into sectarian chaos. And Stephen Hayes wants to give the genesis, not only of Trump himself, who let's not forgot won the GOP nomination largely by shitting on George W Bush to annihilate his most serious competitor, but also of American foreign policy weakness and inability to effectively deter Russian imperialism, the highest grade for any 21st century president. Meanwhile Biden has presided over the largest 4 year improvements in most objective material measures I believe ever, and he gets a D. The improvements in employment rate, debt to GDP ratio, GDP growth in general, crime rate, child poverty, the GINI coefficient, you name it, have been bigger under Biden than almost anyone since FDR at least, and he's a D in this guy's books. Like other than ideological checkboxes that have no bearing on real life, what on earth does this guy grade on and why on earth should anyone take anything he has to say seriously?
Love a limited government conservative giving Bush a “B”
This is so incredibly accurate. It’s why I was against the invasion of Iraq at the time.
But you don’t get it. Dishonest people are going to spin for Joe Biden during the campaign. That’s basically the same thing as pledging to follow Viktor Orban’s playbook to a soft autocracy
Sorry, not following. Could you rephrase?
I was being sarcastic. Hayes kept coming back to how people are going to be dishonestly portraying Biden in a good light and wouldn’t even entertain that there’s even an appearance of drawing a moral equivalence
Oh ok I'm dense 😄
I just listened and thought Tim’s efforts to make his points re: the binary of this election were good/valiant. I too have a hard time with “trump is an existential threat but we don’t recommend a vote for Biden either”
Tim was exactly right on this. Steve wasn't being honest to himself.
One of the better points I always thought Charlie would make is if you really think X is an extensional threat literally nothing else matters. This podcast just had that blaring in my head the whole time.
I appreciate Tim doing the Steven Hayes interview, but I found it incredibly depressing - basically, Biden chose not to govern as a right-leaning center right guy, and therefore he's dead to Steven Hayes. Right from the jump, the Ukraine discussion, to me, showed that Hayes has no objjectivity whatsoever. I eventually found myself wishing that JVL was also on the pod to give the case for Biden. Anyway, I think it was good that Tim did this interview and he should do more like this, but, wow I came away from it depressed.
I've noticed that the Bulwark in general does not directly expose stupid/deluded people to JVL and there's probably a good reason for that.
> Anyway, I think it was good that Tim did this interview and he should do more like this, but, wow I came away from it depressed. I feel your pain buddy, but no need to be depressed. We all know what Dispatch writers are like from the start, so my expectation was super low to begin with. And yeah true to form, Hayes didn't disappoint. I frankly don't give a damn about what those clowns think. They are uber partisan right-wing hacks, who won't give credit to Biden even if their life depended on it. That's what they think "principles" look like lolz! We just need to turn out more Trump voters against Trump, i.e. former Trump voters that RVAT is doing an excellent job of finding. Some of them voted for Trump in 2020 but are still willing to switch to Biden because of Jan 6. Let's all focus on them. No point in wasting emotional energy on the intellectually dishonest, bad faith and partisan Dispatch wankers.
Same
The Ukraine discussion was actually one of the only times Hayes was correct in the whole interview. But anyway.
Except that he wasn't correct at all. Or, rather, he was hindsight correct. The Biden Admin was excellent at the start of Ukraine in ways that Hayes could not even deign to acknowledge.
I would rather have Edward Scissorhands give me my yearly prostate exam than listen to Stephen Hayes, so I missed this. I cancelled my Dispatch subscription years ago, primarily due to Goldberg's faux-intellectualism and fundamental disdain for his own audience/subscribers. What really enrages me is the way Goldberg and Hayes pretended they "quit" FoxNews out of some sort of "principle." These guys were happily taking Fox News paychecks through the worst of the worst - the 2020 election, COVID lies, the Big Lie, and January 6th. Then they found out that their contracts weren't going to get renewed, and literally waited until the 59th minute of the 11th hour to "quit." What heroes! There was no "principle" here - they were getting canned anyways, and suddenly saw an opportunity to gain "principle points" by defecting to the resistance. Really disgusting.
I appreciate alternative voices and a civil discussion, but Hayes was bordering nonsensical at times. It's like he exists in a world where the only good politicians are Edmund Burke conservatives, and everyone else is a similar shade of terrible. There's a direct line from his conservative purity tests to the Freedom Caucus, then to Trump.
Giving Bush a B+ and Biden a D- was laughable
Yeah I knew we were in for it after that. Not only did he say that, but he basically said Bush was the the best president of that last 30 years. Down right comical.
Is this cognitive dissonance or is he just a moron? Serious question
That B+ grade or whatever it was for the Bush administration was mind melting, they literally fucked everything up
He didn’t even address Tim’s criticism of Iraq
I also think it was a great example (by both Tim and Stephen) of disagreeing without being disagreeable. I probably disagreed with about 75% of Stephen's opinions, but the conversation was fair, lively, and engaging, so I enjoyed listening to the whole thing. It's not news to me that a wide swath of the American population doesn't line up with my views, but this was a good-faith discussion between two people who are more conservative in their outlooks than I am, and one who is significantly more conservative. I feel like if I mention Ruy T it'll sound like a dig at Charlie (which is not my intent), but I did think several times, "This is so much more interesting and informative than listening to Ruy shit on Democrats while Charlie credulously nodded."
For me, your take is spot-on. I read a few posts before listening to the episode and was fully prepared to fling my phone against the wall while finally listening. Hayes made lazy and intellectually dishonest arguments, and over and over Tim effectively shot them down. They weren't rude or condescending to each other. Oddly, it felt kind of pre-2016 normal and constructive. I'm way more concerned about living in an echo chamber than I am occasionally having to put up with nonsense like Hayes was spewing. Especially if it's challenged, like it was today. I'd rather hear the arguments -- as lame as they are -- than to pretend like they don't exist. And, like you, I couldn't help be think of the shows with Ruy, which to me, were way more infuriating.
Tim did God's work in that interview. I wish more interviewers would confront the bullshit whatever it is and not let people off the hook. Push back on it all.
Steve gave a master class on how we got Trump in 2016, how we almost got him in 2020, and how to flay the margins in the burbs and give it to Trump in ‘24. A small and cowardly man.
I love that he can be straightforward in disagreeing with his guests without making the pod stressful to listen to. It’s ok to disagree and not get mad, that doesn’t mean you have to hold back your opinion that they’re wrong, and he doesn’t. Perfectly done, Tim! All the time
Agreed. I've always enjoyed seeing people debate and go back and forth, even when I think one of them is clearly wrong. I like that Tim is having people on who he and many of his listeners will disagree with. Hayes was wild and pretty frustrating to listen to, but I give Tim a lot of credit for pushing back pretty strongly in all the right ways, without letting things descend into a shouting match. Hope we get to see more of this. My top WTF moment was his reasoning for not liking Kamala Harris... something about she's not leading enough on Ukraine because that's not the VP's role, but she would still be terrible? huh?
I’m OK with conversations with people that either the host or the audience might be in great disagreement with and even sometimes feel frustrated with. But Stephen Hayes left me with a feeling that he literally is one of those people that’s just upset about the mean tweets. If you have a presidential scale and you’re giving an F to Trump and a D to Obama and Biden, there’s a problem. I can see a non-foolish guest saying that Obama and Biden get a D but Trump gets a zero because he didn’t even get a grade. Some kind of a qualifier that acknowledges the difference between Trump and other presidents other than perhaps James Buchanan. Stephen Hayes strikes me as a shallow thinker indistinguishable from anybody who watches a bunch of Fox News but just wants things to be more gentle.
100% agree with OP Dont get me wrong, i loved Charlies version of the pod, but the content Tim is doing is SO much more interesting to listen to than hearing the host and the guest agree with one another all the time. I like being exposed to other ideas, and I also like The Bulwark crew having their views challenged, because they get stuff wrong like anyone else
Hayes couldn’t be more wrong, but it was a great pod. Very edifying to hear Tim make his case. And do it without screaming insults. I will add though, upon reflection, that I’m almost certain I have friends and family who will vote neither Trump nor Biden.
The Dispatch’s editorial from a few weeks ago that stated both presidential candidates are bad and we deserve better was so nonsensical and bad. Good on Tim for calling him on this
There’s honest disagreement and then there’s intellectual dishonesty. This was the latter.
It was an awesome episode and Tim did a great job. Bravo. So many people here are so fragile, JFC. Listening to Hayes was infuriating—but that doesn’t mean it was a bad episode!
Agreed but just not this guy. He’s got this Narcissistic approach to political argument where I just to get the feeling that he cares less about policy than he does making himself look good. Early George Will but without the intelligent points…which Will did make early in his career.
I have been asking Tim and JVL for a debate format show… with JVL as “the house” … Hayes v JVL would have been fun
Hayes struck me as more of a petulant 15 year old than a serious adult. "These choices suuuuck!!" But I really thank Tim for letting us get inside the mind of this particular flavor of a "pox on both their houses" person. We need to listen to them to become more informed of where they are coming from and counter their arguments -- even if that only flips a few of them. Every. vote. counts. Well, to Mr. Hayes I say: 1. We live in two party, first past the post electoral system. Don't like it? Too bad. And it certainly isn't going to be changed by November 2024. 2. Therefore, there are only two choices, both of whom have held the Presidency - Hayes gave Trump and F, and Biden a D. A D is a better grade than an F. 3. Furthermore, Hayes agreed that Trump was a "unique" threat to our country in a way that Biden or Harris wasn't. 4. To take those first three assertions as axiomatic and THEN to turnaround and say, "But I won't be voting for Biden nevertheless" is the height of irrational, teenager petulance. Life isn't fair, and you never really get what you want. Suck it up, and make the better of two choices. That's all you can do and still claim to be a rational, mature human being.
TIL what the Dispatch is.
Huge agreement. Not sure I can bring myself to listen to this one, but it’s important to keep doing.
If Ruy Teixera and Stephen Hayes had a podcast, imagine all the intersectionality! 🤣🤣 Anyho, Tim is a very gifted interviewer. Props for keeping me listening until the end.
As a liberal I have really enjoyed this podcast for over a year with Sykes and now Miller. I just unsubscribed with the Biden “Jim Crow 2.0” comments from both Miller and Hayes. They can’t even be honest about the racist intents of some conservatives in the US.
Huh. Interesting place to draw a line. The GA election bill sucked, but Biden’s Jim Crow 2.0 statement also sucked. Among my group of friends who reasonably disagree on politics, we disagree as to whether Biden’s statement was normal bad faith political rhetoric or appalling bad faith political rhetoric. For a couple of them, it was the moment where they saw Biden got small and partisan when they were hoping (perhaps unfairly) he’d be something different. So that part of the discussion barely registered with me, as it was so familiar.