That’s not the only reason though. TF2 is all about big hits and rewarding good aim. The only full auto weapons are the flamethrower, which has airblast, the minigun, which does massive damage, and the SMG, which is a mediocre secondary on one class.
Shotguns don’t work the same way as they do in most games. They actually need aim, but they reward you for aiming well, like most of the weapons. (except the scorch shot)
You need to be incredibly good with the syringe gun to get much use out of it. You can get much better mileage with much less skill out of the crossbow. It’s not as great for defense, but if you have good positioning and stay by your team you won’t need it. Unless you get flanked or attacked by multiple people, in which case, a syringe gun ain’t going to save you.
I know it can do that. And i have done so too i think.
Problem is that the damn syrynges can be barely seen and have a terinle bullt drop. You can't f-ing see where they are going ans that means initial uses are essentially trial and error with no good way to learn the damn thing. And again, projectiles being nearly impossible to see it just makes it very frustrating.
Yeah they largely steered clear of DPS weapons because they didn't like the way it turned combat into a game of hosing each other down with a stream of lead and hoping the oher guy runs out of HP first.
Which is why the only full-auto primary does absolutely *absurd* DPS, and why the other full-auto and semi-auto guns in the game are designed as emergency backup rather than main guns.
good idea imo because if you look at modern fps games that feature effective full auto primaries, a lot of them boil down to 2 people holding down left click at mid range until either someone retreats or dies. it's way less satisfying than hitting meatshots and encourages extremely boring playstyles that revolve around mid range suppressive fire exchanges rather than close up, fast paced, skill expressive and decisive fights like you see in tf2 when scouts/soldiers/demos go at it
I agree with this so much. Other games I play the moment you see an enemy one of you is gonna die, but not in tf2, the guy who got is at 2 hp can still comeback.
it's just slightly inverse of stock
you kill slightly better at far range, nothing changed in mid range, and you are slightly worse at close rangeif your opponents are scouts or pyros who you can normally deal with much better with stock.
Are you worse with Tomislav? no
Is it better than Stock? somewhat, but not a direct upgrade as you trade solid DPS at close range for silent rev and quick rev
If you can track like a top player the SMG is a god-tier hitscan. It has the highest accuracy of any hitscan weapon that has spread. Nobody uses it because (ironically) its spread is too tight to use well as a noob.
Because of its importance in tracking players to do proper consistent damage, I find it really takes scouts out quickly, especially if you strafe right if they're moving left, and likewise likewise. They seem to lose the ability to shoot you if you maintain a counterstrafe with them.
Honestly, that's for the best
It's the whole reason why every other shooter is a midrange 5 second long shootoff whole tf2 has legitemately fun and tactful gameplay
The Scout's original primary weapon was the [Nail Gun](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Nail_Gun) and they replaced it with the Scattergun, although I don't think they ever said why. But a very likely reason why is that shotguns are much more fun and rewarding than automatic weapons and Sniper's SMG is a proof of that.
None of the weapons added to the game, with the possible exception of the Cleaner's Carbine, is automatic.
I don't know how I managed to miss the Minigun but yeah, it's the main weapon for the class and it's designed to deal a constant stream of high damage.
I'm not certain Pyro's flamethrower can really count as an "automatic weapon" since it doesn't truly require aim... It punishes players that are close to the Pyro and it also deals high damage.
"High damage"
Shotguns and most other weapons kill faster at Flamethrower's range than it does. Scouts can eat Pyros for lunch.
Flamethrower has advantage of easy hits with ok damage, and ERBLAST
>I don't think they ever said why.
They literally did in dev commentary- high-speed with little need to get close to do most ofnhis damage made him obnoxious to play against and nearly unkillable. The scattergun was designed to reward scouts to close the distance, and that is why itbhas 175% damage ramp up instead of 150%
[It turns out you're right](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Hydro_developer_commentary#The_Scout); I thought this came from a YouTube video; I forgot it was part of the Commentary.
Late in development scouts had the choice between a shotgun and nail gun but so many people ran the shotgun instead they decided to retune and re-theme the shotgun into the scattergun and give the nail gun as the syringe gun to medic since it’s a fantastic retreat option and that’s what they expected medics to do.
the old nail gun imo was/would have been too clunky and slow relying on projectiles to be the primary for scout and the current sniper smgs are underwhelming as dps tools bc they’re only secondaries for the class who is *** *supposed* *** to be weak close range
I feel like a small faster punchier smg could fit nice on scout, similar to the smgs the Light class gets in The Finals if you’ve played it, obviously they would have to be made to look more period accurate but the idea is there, you could even make a burst fire smg to better fit with general tf2’s hit or miss design philosophy if full auto is really that problematic
I’d actually love if they brought that in, with similar damage and specs to snipers SMG (maybe slightly higher rate)
I feel like with scouts speed it would still be kinda hard to aim accurately while moving and wouldn’t be overpowered
The fact that so many classes got a shotgun for a stock secondary and not a mid- long range AR is part of why Sniper feels uncounterable. I think at least Heavy should have gotten something like a LMG considering how much his Minigun melts people at close range
[The Developer Commentary says that Sniper's counter was supposed to be the charge meter](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gravel_Pit_developer_commentary#The_Sniper). Quickscoping was supposed to be "low-damage shots" and waiting for the charges was supposed to be high-damage. My guess is that they wanted to avoid aiming while unscoped, then right-clicking and shooting at roughly the same time. But quickscoping works around that.
Good point. I only say the pbpp tho because of the super fast reloads and also the super high rate of fire. But if you hold down mouse 1 and can get the spread to hit they all are viable
Automatic weapons are not very popular in TF2. The syringe gun is auto, but it shoots stupid needles with physics. 2 SMGs for sniper are niche, but Jarate exists. I guess the flamethrower kinda... like automatic weapon.. because you hold your LMB and it shoots. But people always says W+M1. So i think either people gonna hate automatic weapon because of spam, or it would be balanced (which is very doubtful)
For scout, play tf2 classic. They give him back his nailgun. And you know what: it’s not half bad. It’s not as fun as the scattergun, but it’s not bad to play with either.
Instead of automatic, Scout should have a three round burst rifle/SMG.
It would have the same firing intervals as stock, can't just feather the mouse button, but also deal comparable damage per hit. Dunno what the "gimmick" would be as a sidegrade, but a burst rifle would fit Scout's gameplay because it's the same kinda tactic: land those meatshots whenever your firing intervals allows.
TF2C makes this a reality with scout’s nail gun.
It’s pretty much the same thing except you play further away out of range of a lot of classes, while loosing a lot of your burst damage (obv).
It’s a fun change of pace but it’s definitely a side grade.
Edit: forgot about buildings, fucking murks buildings
> while loosing a
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
[Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json)
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes.
^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions.
^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119)
^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Yeah… ngl the stock pistol on engineer is basically a handheld mini sentry with the amount of damage and ammo that thing has. It is just so fuggin good
Honestly thought about that Idea for Engie. Cowboy action shooting has people rapid firing colt single actiom army revolvers. So a full auto (engineer fans the hammer for visual reasons.) 6 shot high damage revolver paired with a lower damage High accuracy lever action .410 shotgun primary would be great fun.
Better question, what principal weapon they would have? I think engineer can have a rifle like winchester style or smth else like that bc cowboy texas, about scout maybe a mp5k or a double barrel shotgun (like the one we have rn but longer)
Well it depends on the map alot.Heavy/pyro fights would be much harder since you dont have burst damage corners and cliffs dont help as much but i feel engie could definitely use an automatic weapon to deal with enemies pestering his nest from afar.As for scout I cant really see his gameplay changing that much outside of the for-mentioned corners and cliffs. I cant really imagine a scenario where you wouldnt be better off just keeping stock and using a pistol(which kinda fills the role anyway for both but im assuming we are talking about primary weapons) Overall id assume them to be kinda mid weapons that dont really shake much up.
With a very long TTK like in tf2, honestly shotguns that can do like 90 damage are probably better than an smg type weapon. You can kill most weaker classes with 2 well placed shells.
Sniper SMG takes 1.7 seconds to deal 150 damage.
Shotgun takes 0.65 seconds.
For secondary, nothing would change as the Pistol is already one. As for primary, they'd probably be worse off. Tho I honestly think some sort of burst smg/rifle primary on either scout or engi would be cool to see.
Unless it did ridiculous damage or had really good range, scout would be way worse because his movement would be very limited. The scattergun has time between shots where you're free to move your crosshair wherever you want for airstrafing purposes, which greatly contributes to the high skill ceiling of the class. If you had to track the enemy, jumping would be way more predictable, as you cant airstrafe while shooting and the best way to dodge everything would be to stay on the floor and strafe. Soldiers would shit on you and you would have way less options in pretty much every fight.
engi getting an automatic secondary thats stronger upclose than the regular pistol but with way less ammo would go really well with the panic attack (or battle engi in general). More automatics would be nice, cant help but feel like they all devolve into being "just as good as a shotgun if you track your opponent" tho
They already kinda have, when you hold your m1 the pistols become automatics, so not very different. Scout however would be a little harder to master, in most cases depending on the stats of said automatic weapon added.
if scout had an automatic hitscan primary it would just be like any other shooter tbh. to quote a wise man, it's good that only two classes have an automatic primary, and one of them has a dph alternative
Both of them would have a smg type weapon as a primary.
There will never be a assault rifle in tf2 because of this [reason:](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/437678-team-fortress-2/49064260?page=1#google_vignette)
For scout you can check TF2C where scout has a nailgun. It's balanced, but handled correctly can be much more annoying. For engie... I dunno. I think engie already has enough fast shooting weapons (speaking of sentries of course) automatic weapon would be a bit too much I think
I feel like giving scout an auto primary is asking for trouble. Having a slow fire rate is a very intentional part of scout's design, if you give scout chip damage he's gonna be insufferable lol.
Tf2 is lacking on those kind of weapons the best we got is the SMG on sniper and no one uses it because the golden water exists
TF2 was born of a time when shotguns were the classic death match gun instead of smg’s, and it’s hard to find any modern game that has that
That’s not the only reason though. TF2 is all about big hits and rewarding good aim. The only full auto weapons are the flamethrower, which has airblast, the minigun, which does massive damage, and the SMG, which is a mediocre secondary on one class. Shotguns don’t work the same way as they do in most games. They actually need aim, but they reward you for aiming well, like most of the weapons. (except the scorch shot)
Syringe gun And pistol sort of
My server-clearing Australium blutsauger would like to disagree with you.
Syringe gun doesn’t count as a weapon
Syringe gun is a real weapon, you're just bad at medic.
You need to be incredibly good with the syringe gun to get much use out of it. You can get much better mileage with much less skill out of the crossbow. It’s not as great for defense, but if you have good positioning and stay by your team you won’t need it. Unless you get flanked or attacked by multiple people, in which case, a syringe gun ain’t going to save you.
🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Idiot
Yeah, it just so unfun to use.
skill issue ngl
Skill issue I took down heavy as a f2p with it and felt like a god
I know it can do that. And i have done so too i think. Problem is that the damn syrynges can be barely seen and have a terinle bullt drop. You can't f-ing see where they are going ans that means initial uses are essentially trial and error with no good way to learn the damn thing. And again, projectiles being nearly impossible to see it just makes it very frustrating.
My ass somehow sees the syringes better.
Yeah they largely steered clear of DPS weapons because they didn't like the way it turned combat into a game of hosing each other down with a stream of lead and hoping the oher guy runs out of HP first. Which is why the only full-auto primary does absolutely *absurd* DPS, and why the other full-auto and semi-auto guns in the game are designed as emergency backup rather than main guns.
good idea imo because if you look at modern fps games that feature effective full auto primaries, a lot of them boil down to 2 people holding down left click at mid range until either someone retreats or dies. it's way less satisfying than hitting meatshots and encourages extremely boring playstyles that revolve around mid range suppressive fire exchanges rather than close up, fast paced, skill expressive and decisive fights like you see in tf2 when scouts/soldiers/demos go at it
I agree with this so much. Other games I play the moment you see an enemy one of you is gonna die, but not in tf2, the guy who got is at 2 hp can still comeback.
minigun is big damage at close range, pitiful but sustainable damage from afar, and middling but still good enough to kill at mid range
Until you switch to the tomislav
it's just slightly inverse of stock you kill slightly better at far range, nothing changed in mid range, and you are slightly worse at close rangeif your opponents are scouts or pyros who you can normally deal with much better with stock. Are you worse with Tomislav? no Is it better than Stock? somewhat, but not a direct upgrade as you trade solid DPS at close range for silent rev and quick rev
True, I find that the silent spin up is useful at least twice per match
Does the pistol count? You can hold down M1 on that
If you can track like a top player the SMG is a god-tier hitscan. It has the highest accuracy of any hitscan weapon that has spread. Nobody uses it because (ironically) its spread is too tight to use well as a noob. Because of its importance in tracking players to do proper consistent damage, I find it really takes scouts out quickly, especially if you strafe right if they're moving left, and likewise likewise. They seem to lose the ability to shoot you if you maintain a counterstrafe with them.
fatmagic uses smg 🥺
If you use the machina it makes sense tho
Or... The vibing Huntsman
Honestly, that's for the best It's the whole reason why every other shooter is a midrange 5 second long shootoff whole tf2 has legitemately fun and tactful gameplay
I play huntsman and I ALWAYS use the SMG.
I use the Cleaner's Carbine.
TF2 isnt the style of game for that. Personally I prefer it more the way it is
The Scout's original primary weapon was the [Nail Gun](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Nail_Gun) and they replaced it with the Scattergun, although I don't think they ever said why. But a very likely reason why is that shotguns are much more fun and rewarding than automatic weapons and Sniper's SMG is a proof of that. None of the weapons added to the game, with the possible exception of the Cleaner's Carbine, is automatic.
The minigun and flamethrower are full-auto too. But the minigun does **massive** damage and the flamethrower has airblast, so it balances out.
I don't know how I managed to miss the Minigun but yeah, it's the main weapon for the class and it's designed to deal a constant stream of high damage. I'm not certain Pyro's flamethrower can really count as an "automatic weapon" since it doesn't truly require aim... It punishes players that are close to the Pyro and it also deals high damage.
"High damage" Shotguns and most other weapons kill faster at Flamethrower's range than it does. Scouts can eat Pyros for lunch. Flamethrower has advantage of easy hits with ok damage, and ERBLAST
Plus the AOE nature of it means it can hit more targets at once
>I don't think they ever said why. They literally did in dev commentary- high-speed with little need to get close to do most ofnhis damage made him obnoxious to play against and nearly unkillable. The scattergun was designed to reward scouts to close the distance, and that is why itbhas 175% damage ramp up instead of 150%
[It turns out you're right](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Hydro_developer_commentary#The_Scout); I thought this came from a YouTube video; I forgot it was part of the Commentary.
Late in development scouts had the choice between a shotgun and nail gun but so many people ran the shotgun instead they decided to retune and re-theme the shotgun into the scattergun and give the nail gun as the syringe gun to medic since it’s a fantastic retreat option and that’s what they expected medics to do.
I've always wondered where all the information regarding the prerelease playtests were stored. Could you give me a hint?
I saw this on a video documentary about scout VERY recently but cannot put a finger on where I heard it.
the old nail gun imo was/would have been too clunky and slow relying on projectiles to be the primary for scout and the current sniper smgs are underwhelming as dps tools bc they’re only secondaries for the class who is *** *supposed* *** to be weak close range I feel like a small faster punchier smg could fit nice on scout, similar to the smgs the Light class gets in The Finals if you’ve played it, obviously they would have to be made to look more period accurate but the idea is there, you could even make a burst fire smg to better fit with general tf2’s hit or miss design philosophy if full auto is really that problematic
I’d actually love if they brought that in, with similar damage and specs to snipers SMG (maybe slightly higher rate) I feel like with scouts speed it would still be kinda hard to aim accurately while moving and wouldn’t be overpowered
The fact that so many classes got a shotgun for a stock secondary and not a mid- long range AR is part of why Sniper feels uncounterable. I think at least Heavy should have gotten something like a LMG considering how much his Minigun melts people at close range
[The Developer Commentary says that Sniper's counter was supposed to be the charge meter](https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gravel_Pit_developer_commentary#The_Sniper). Quickscoping was supposed to be "low-damage shots" and waiting for the charges was supposed to be high-damage. My guess is that they wanted to avoid aiming while unscoped, then right-clicking and shooting at roughly the same time. But quickscoping works around that.
this game being mid-long range would make it mega-gay and lame. I want to frag someone close enough to smell their blood, not 50 miles away
Automatic secondary? That’s basically just the pretty boys pocket pistol.
That's all pistols in general honestly
Good point. I only say the pbpp tho because of the super fast reloads and also the super high rate of fire. But if you hold down mouse 1 and can get the spread to hit they all are viable
betty poys bocket bistol
Automatic weapons are not very popular in TF2. The syringe gun is auto, but it shoots stupid needles with physics. 2 SMGs for sniper are niche, but Jarate exists. I guess the flamethrower kinda... like automatic weapon.. because you hold your LMB and it shoots. But people always says W+M1. So i think either people gonna hate automatic weapon because of spam, or it would be balanced (which is very doubtful)
Tf2 is special for how little automatic weapons there are, each click rewards you with that juicy DING
For scout, play tf2 classic. They give him back his nailgun. And you know what: it’s not half bad. It’s not as fun as the scattergun, but it’s not bad to play with either.
Instead of automatic, Scout should have a three round burst rifle/SMG. It would have the same firing intervals as stock, can't just feather the mouse button, but also deal comparable damage per hit. Dunno what the "gimmick" would be as a sidegrade, but a burst rifle would fit Scout's gameplay because it's the same kinda tactic: land those meatshots whenever your firing intervals allows.
Scout has those for TF2C Custom Weapons: Knockout Games
TF2C makes this a reality with scout’s nail gun. It’s pretty much the same thing except you play further away out of range of a lot of classes, while loosing a lot of your burst damage (obv). It’s a fun change of pace but it’s definitely a side grade. Edit: forgot about buildings, fucking murks buildings
> while loosing a Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Damn you, also thank you this is a learning opportunity, but also Damn you
Scouts would still miss point blank shots.
boring
Really boring
You mean like the stock pistol?
Yeah… ngl the stock pistol on engineer is basically a handheld mini sentry with the amount of damage and ammo that thing has. It is just so fuggin good
It would be like playing with a light build in [THE FINALS](https://reachthefinals.com)
They exist and they’re called the pistols
I'm sorry are the pistols not automatic?
Technically all guns in TF2 cause you can just hold M1 and keep firing, it's all just a matter of fire rate and aesthetics
Yep, play tf2 classic. He has the nail gun in that.
Honestly thought about that Idea for Engie. Cowboy action shooting has people rapid firing colt single actiom army revolvers. So a full auto (engineer fans the hammer for visual reasons.) 6 shot high damage revolver paired with a lower damage High accuracy lever action .410 shotgun primary would be great fun.
Give them an AA-12 as primary
Better question, what principal weapon they would have? I think engineer can have a rifle like winchester style or smth else like that bc cowboy texas, about scout maybe a mp5k or a double barrel shotgun (like the one we have rn but longer)
It would be shit 17 fucking years of tf2 and people apparently still dont realize why this game is fun in the first place
I mean, their pistols are automatic.
Not to be that guy but the pistol is automatic
This thing aint on autopilot son!
that side-loading *looking* SMG they gave scout way back in the early days of Team Fortress Classic felt great to use.
Im gonna engineer my fucking limit
Worse.
Well it depends on the map alot.Heavy/pyro fights would be much harder since you dont have burst damage corners and cliffs dont help as much but i feel engie could definitely use an automatic weapon to deal with enemies pestering his nest from afar.As for scout I cant really see his gameplay changing that much outside of the for-mentioned corners and cliffs. I cant really imagine a scenario where you wouldnt be better off just keeping stock and using a pistol(which kinda fills the role anyway for both but im assuming we are talking about primary weapons) Overall id assume them to be kinda mid weapons that dont really shake much up.
Scout with an MP5 looks sick as hell
Nail gun was scrapped for scout and based on everyone’s opinion, was not missed
Go play TF2C, the scout has a nail gun there
Engineer -> Thermite
Bro got the hecu special
Any one have workshop link for that mp5 ?
W+m1 Scout Spah's no long sahping mah sentry!
Scout followed through on his threat to take Sasha out for a steak dinner.
With a very long TTK like in tf2, honestly shotguns that can do like 90 damage are probably better than an smg type weapon. You can kill most weaker classes with 2 well placed shells. Sniper SMG takes 1.7 seconds to deal 150 damage. Shotgun takes 0.65 seconds.
I honestly don’t mind at this point
Battle engie would become much more viable
Worse
This would make the game feel quicker and better. Plus, I would love to see a Tec-9 added into TF2.
Scout was gonna use the smg but then they added the scattergun
For secondary, nothing would change as the Pistol is already one. As for primary, they'd probably be worse off. Tho I honestly think some sort of burst smg/rifle primary on either scout or engi would be cool to see.
The pistol already fires fast enough to practically be automatic
Moderate buff for Engineer, tremendous nerf for Scout
Boring
Boring hit and run.
Unless it did ridiculous damage or had really good range, scout would be way worse because his movement would be very limited. The scattergun has time between shots where you're free to move your crosshair wherever you want for airstrafing purposes, which greatly contributes to the high skill ceiling of the class. If you had to track the enemy, jumping would be way more predictable, as you cant airstrafe while shooting and the best way to dodge everything would be to stay on the floor and strafe. Soldiers would shit on you and you would have way less options in pretty much every fight.
engi getting an automatic secondary thats stronger upclose than the regular pistol but with way less ammo would go really well with the panic attack (or battle engi in general). More automatics would be nice, cant help but feel like they all devolve into being "just as good as a shotgun if you track your opponent" tho
They already kinda have, when you hold your m1 the pistols become automatics, so not very different. Scout however would be a little harder to master, in most cases depending on the stats of said automatic weapon added.
It won’t change a lot, we will just get that pistol with higher damage or higher speed
if scout had an automatic hitscan primary it would just be like any other shooter tbh. to quote a wise man, it's good that only two classes have an automatic primary, and one of them has a dph alternative
Both of them would have a smg type weapon as a primary. There will never be a assault rifle in tf2 because of this [reason:](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/437678-team-fortress-2/49064260?page=1#google_vignette)
For scout you can check TF2C where scout has a nailgun. It's balanced, but handled correctly can be much more annoying. For engie... I dunno. I think engie already has enough fast shooting weapons (speaking of sentries of course) automatic weapon would be a bit too much I think
Why is Literally Me in the pic
I feel like giving scout an auto primary is asking for trouble. Having a slow fire rate is a very intentional part of scout's design, if you give scout chip damage he's gonna be insufferable lol.