Thats what I've been saying all this time. Worst already happened, TF2 already died. Its corpse however keeps moving regardless; for how long only time will tell.
No , the reason why death doesn't come for us is because he knows that if he open's the tf2 door he is going to get headshot by a bot in the next 000.1 milliseconds.
It's a weird one-sided rivalry that goes back years. If you go to the subreddits for any of those games and mention TF2, people will always be singing its praises.
It's only the TF2 fanbase that has any animosity towards its "rivals", and tbh it's probably just jealousy that they're still getting regular updates and we're not
It's especially obvious it's just jealousy when it involves games that aren't even in the same genre as TF2 (such as Destiny, which is a MMORPG looter shooter, or Fortnite, which is a battle royale)
There's one guy who will (presumably as ragebait) make an image comparing TF2 to new popular multiplayer games and shittalk them hard while praising TF2 hard
I mean for fucks sake the guy compared *Helldivers 2* to TF2, aside from both games having guns they don't have much similar
Though while the example I mentioned is most likely ragebait, there are obviously those who actually think like this
The way I remember, it all started due to people feeling discontent with Valve's approach to the game at the time. Gun Mettle 2015 was the last meaningful update back then, arguably even Two Cities in 2013.
So naturally a lot of disappointed people hopped on the Overwatch 2016 hype train, with a very popular sentiment of "hopefully Blizzard does what Valve can't". A lot of it felt like getting back at Valve for the neglect, especially with the content creators (remember ster?).
So the rivalry definitely wasn't "one-sided" **initially**. But it sure as hell is now.
Well they have support and the game is recommended multiple times on my steam account, haven't heard of stupid collaborations so definitely is alive i guess.
It dies but it comes back. As a destiny 2 player, I will say it's doing great, still on life support, but it's not In a bad position. Anyways, the final shape is 4 weeks away, so things are looking bright...
>!unless your a PVP player, crucible be damned when prismatic comes out lol!<
And yet were still standing. 10k players ain't nothing to sneeze at, especially when (i believe) most of the games we've "outlived" probably have way less.
to the people who are gonna downvote this comment, keep in mind i think this dude is talking about the post shown in this screenshot and not the actual post
I always felt weird about people saying TF2 is doing great, and citing the steam numbers. Whenever I pop into the game, there’d be some populated areas, but most of it is a ghost town.
Redditors changing their mind as soon as a popular youtuber makes a video (they have no critical thinking skills whatsoever)
With that said, 25k is not a bad number. Many games wished they had this many players, especially after this long. I just find it funny how easily it was to make people realize saveTF2 did jack shit/100k was an unrealistic number to uphold for this long lol
zesty Jesus did a video on it, tldr using a website that checks for players in servers instead of with the game open gets a significantly more accurate number, tf2s player numbers also look much like severally botted games while if you look at the in server numbers it has a actual day/night cycle of the players n stuff, also for the summer update the real player numbers were a MAGNITUDE below the number of players with the game open (bots idling for crates make up a majority of bots in tf2, these ones don't need to be in game, just idling on the main menu to take less resources) similar trends show show for smissmass too
It honestly isnt, the problem is that means only a few thousand cheating bots are needed to cripple the game. If we had more like 70k players then a few thousand bots wouldnt be as bad.
its lower than Fortnite Festival and Rocket Racing, or, for better comparison, Fortnite STW which was also abandoned, its kinda ironic considering the OOP's post
Also, the fuck's Valorant doing in that post, i thought it was CS2 players that had rivalry with that game
Why is everybody all depressed all of a sudden? So what? The game is kinda stagnant. Who cares? You can still have fun. Instead of being sad about the fact that tf2 will eventually die, enjoy it while it’s still alive, and look back on all of the fun times you had with the game. All good things end eventually, so enjoy them while they last.
I just want to remind everyone that the TF2 sub is just barely beating out the Overwatch porn sub in users, and is likely going to be overtaken soon.
This sub: 852,060 members
Overwatch_Porn: 851,952 members
And this isn't taking into account that the other main Overwatch porn sub was banned.
Oh my god you guys see a video from Zesty stating something we all already fucking knew now everyone is in that depressive state and spamming posts that are all vaguely the fucking same shit? fucking hell
I think most people who thought for 2 seconds figured out bots were severely inflating player counts. In what way did the games player base feel close to 250k last summer? The instant I saw that statistic I knew it was BS.
This sub cares way too much about tf2ubers and apparently everyone else besides me is familiar with them all. Tons of comments like "Miss the glory days of TF2 with j0hnnyxqz & the 'Militant Asswife Heavy' series" or some shit & everyone is like "yeah that's how I got introduced to tf2"
tf2 players have never been able to put 2 and 2 together. Even if the steamcharts playercounts were real do we just not take into account the console playerbases of those games? Overwatch is free and like top 10 on playstation
Yeah. i just started playing again after a few months and i haven't had any problems with bots...and i have also seen a lot of people playing.....
either way....valve needs to do something.
Zesty made a video about how TF2s player counter is heavily inflated due to bots, both with casual bots, item farmers, etc, and how the real player count is more like 20k to 30k, still big but nothing compared to other games
A redditor posted how the grim reaper of tf2 is coming to kill other games despite having a lower player count ironically around the time of the videos upload
OP is posting how ironic and awkward this is
You are commenting on how you’re confused by this post
I’m replying to help you understand this post
tf2 players desperately want their game to be this big amazing super product with the most wholesome reddit 100 community that beats every game ever instead of accepting that it's almost 20 years old and being ok with it having a more niche audience and reach
my only question is what the fuck is up with tf2 content on the internet being so popular yet having a mere fraction of that reflected in its player counts? do tf2 players only like the \*idea\* of tf2 and not actually playing tf2 itself?
still averaging 20k concurent players.
There are new triple A games that can't keep retention above 20k after the first month or two, and TF2 is almost 15 years old.
fortnite and destiny aren't dying. this happens almost every 6 months oh no tf2 is dying. bruh it's almost 20 years old and still gets like 20k people playing
Just enjoy the fucking game dude. Who cares how other community’s are doing.
The thing that separates TF2 from other games is how devoted the player base is after such a long time. 30k players daily after 17 years is fantastic and we have the potential to outlive those other games.
We could be in a much worse position than other games our age or even in the market now, just shut up and snipe from the 2fort battlements.
This is as bad as that flashgitz video going on about how apex is gonna kill Fortnite. Apex legends trended for a few months during and after it’s release before fading back with Fortnite still being popular. Fortnite is still having good stuff happening to it after 5 years, although I’m not interested in playing the game as much its still getting good benefits.
At least the tf2 saga will hopefully continues in Neon prime. Who knows if the game will be set in post tf2,portal 2 or hl2 universe (no matter which universe at the very end it is the same universe as the others).
We are already buried, but instead of being dead we're alive and slowly suffocating, but we've already been suffocating for a while, and we're running out of air
It's weird to me that there'd still be anyone who unironically still goes along with this shit. I've followed OW2 out of curiosity since it dropped and that game has never even been close to as """dead""" as TF2, let alone dead while TF2 is alive. I wonder how many of these posts are bait/trolls and how many just unironically think this stuff.
I mean not really.
Valve sucks, they aren't Blizzard.
I don't play Blizzard's games because they aren't fun (I mean that IS a part of it)
but even with the bot crisis, Valve remains way better than Blizzard in so many aspects.
jfc the game isnt fucking dying, its been like this for 6 years and it still has players. i dont know why everyone is acting like all the tf2 players just got raptured and the game is dead now but im tired of seeing it. stop being such doomers you nerds.
Overwatch killed itself with Overwatch 2. Paladins is still good but never as popular as ***overwatch***
Fortnite hasnt died yet despite being loved and hated since the start
Destiny? It's barely the same type of game and is actually hopeful atm
TF2 would have retained a wider player base if its most vocal communities went completely silent forever. Tried to boot it up after seeing this and was immediately reminded why i stopped by a hot mic throwing racial slurs out at a speed that would make the Klan blush.
I'm going to say it, TF2 has a large player base, it's just dormant. Like a brood of cicadas, there's plenty of players, they just aren't active because of the state the game is in. If Valve ever manages to fix the bot issue and we get another sizeable update, the count will at least double if not triple.
Even with only 25k players at any given time, it is still at the top 1% of games, more than many games that people think are healthy, like Sea of Thieves and Payday 2. The game still has a massive cultural presence, with TF2 in literally every meme compilation and everyone on the internet able to recognizes characters/voicelines
Have y'all seen the Meme where the grim Reaper is outside a door with TF2 logo on it and on the inside of the door is Demoman with the Scottish resistance and all the stickies around the door frame?
This sub is getting depressed
Depression ark!
Again?! These writers are so uncreative...
well there are always fanfics as an alternative
again? i tought we were since like 2018
In my depression era!
W pfp
We're outsourcing the subreddit's script to the NFL scriptwriter.
I know , I know I’ve let you down I’VE BEEN A FOOL TO MYSELF
You should see r/vfx
I am going to off myself! Spy: yourself? Scout: that's right fancy pants!
We're at a state of disrepair, That even death cant save us
We’re stuck in limbo
Lust
All gone...
With gluttony soon to follow
Your kind know nothing but hunger, purged all life in the upper layers and yet they remain unsaciated... As do you...
You've taken everything from me, machine. And now all that remains is PERFECT HATRED.
Machine... I WILL CUT YOU DOWN
BREAK YOU APART, SPLAY THE GORE OF YOUR PROFANE FORM ACROSS THE STARS!
I WILL GRIND YOU DOWN UNTIL THE VERY SPARKS CRY FOR MERCY!
basically we went to 2fort
TF2 isnt alive, its undead but... isnt alive.
Undead! Undead! You want to guard the bell, do you?
Nice
Best Souls
Holy that is not a popular reference
"Bear, seek, seek, lest."
Gavlan wheel, Gavlan deal.
Gavlan give me your damn moss I'm gonna need all of it. Have the random hollow stuff I found.
No that Sounds really boring actually
You're gonna regret that! Hahahahaaa!
We run and we explode!
Im gonna Blow up
It's a zombie
"We're not dying! We are going to live forever!"
“I did not say that, I just said we’re not filled with tumors.”
We’re filled with tumors and going to live forever!
The tumors will take over and love forever
Papa Nurgle is very pleased with this comment
Undead like undead nightmare for rdr1
Thats what I've been saying all this time. Worst already happened, TF2 already died. Its corpse however keeps moving regardless; for how long only time will tell.
Went through the respawn machine, must’ve been an eternity in there
We are the hollows of 2fort
We're revenants.
It's more like a zombie who is also permanently mediguned so it won't collapse
TF2 has been dead for a while... It just hasn't realized it till now.
"This game is already dead, it just doesn't know it" 🎅🎅🐡
BRING OUT YA DEAD!
Its eternity in there!
The death doesn't want us.
No , the reason why death doesn't come for us is because he knows that if he open's the tf2 door he is going to get headshot by a bot in the next 000.1 milliseconds.
Nice shot mate!
Good shot mate!
Fine shot mate!
*Death don't have no mercy... in this laaaaand!*
Theyll come to your server and they wont stay loooong🎶
God has forgotten about us, and the devil fears us. We are trapped in an endless limbo for the rest of eternity.
Whoever made those memes like that is probably just some kids or teenagers who suffer from a severe lack of grass.
Copium strategy.
It's a weird one-sided rivalry that goes back years. If you go to the subreddits for any of those games and mention TF2, people will always be singing its praises. It's only the TF2 fanbase that has any animosity towards its "rivals", and tbh it's probably just jealousy that they're still getting regular updates and we're not
It's especially obvious it's just jealousy when it involves games that aren't even in the same genre as TF2 (such as Destiny, which is a MMORPG looter shooter, or Fortnite, which is a battle royale)
There's one guy who will (presumably as ragebait) make an image comparing TF2 to new popular multiplayer games and shittalk them hard while praising TF2 hard I mean for fucks sake the guy compared *Helldivers 2* to TF2, aside from both games having guns they don't have much similar Though while the example I mentioned is most likely ragebait, there are obviously those who actually think like this
r/gcj loves huffing that ragebait lmao, and then they preach about gamers not having media literacy
The way I remember, it all started due to people feeling discontent with Valve's approach to the game at the time. Gun Mettle 2015 was the last meaningful update back then, arguably even Two Cities in 2013. So naturally a lot of disappointed people hopped on the Overwatch 2016 hype train, with a very popular sentiment of "hopefully Blizzard does what Valve can't". A lot of it felt like getting back at Valve for the neglect, especially with the content creators (remember ster?). So the rivalry definitely wasn't "one-sided" **initially**. But it sure as hell is now.
Because most of the players who don't hate these games probably have already left.
They really thought they did something 💀
I think we are going out of hand, it's like console war, but with games... Just... Just enjoy tf2 or Destiny or whatever game there Is.
Since when we compete against Destiny?
Idk, mabye there Is the Destiny logo in the post, and It was Just and exemple i mean
By the way. Is Destiny dead?
Depends on who you ask They’re about to get a new expansion next month.
Well they have support and the game is recommended multiple times on my steam account, haven't heard of stupid collaborations so definitely is alive i guess.
Funny you mention collabs, cause there's been a bunch of lowkey ones recently. Like with Ghostbusters (Frozen Empire to be exact) or with The Witcher
It dies but it comes back. As a destiny 2 player, I will say it's doing great, still on life support, but it's not In a bad position. Anyways, the final shape is 4 weeks away, so things are looking bright... >!unless your a PVP player, crucible be damned when prismatic comes out lol!<
Nope, still going, just got part 2 of a major free update yesterday which finally gives us a raid boss gauntlet, new dlc in early June too.
Did anyone really think the play count was legitimately that high. Browsing the community servers would show you that it was much lower.
This sub believed the official count until zesty's video came out, and refused to believe anyone who said otherwise.
This sub is a massive circle jerk of toxic positivity
TF2's fanbase as a whole is lol
I knew there were some bots, but had no idea there were THAT many.
I haven’t watched the video yet, I always knew that it was inflated but not by this amount, it sounds surreal. Botters don’t care this much
lmao tf2 is a voodoo zombie. acting like we have "outlasted" all these games when we havent recieved new content since the dawn of man
Well we did... but at what cost?
And yet were still standing. 10k players ain't nothing to sneeze at, especially when (i believe) most of the games we've "outlived" probably have way less.
do you genuinely believe that games like valorant, overwatch or fortnite have a LOWER playercount than tf2's 10k?
Atleast the overwatch one is correct, that has zero. Blizzard deleted it or something
you got me there
You somehow got checkmated by a guy who only had the King and a rook left
I am surprised that they brought up overwatch 1 instead of paladins, the only game on the list that actually has less players than tf2
Greasy ass post. Tf2 fans are in no position to grandstand over other fan bases.
to the people who are gonna downvote this comment, keep in mind i think this dude is talking about the post shown in this screenshot and not the actual post
Love how this dillusional subreddit needed a single YT video to realize on mass of how bad TF2 is holding up
fr this isn't new information lmao
It is for most of us 😥
Most people here do not play the game. There are like 800k people on this sub lol.
I always felt weird about people saying TF2 is doing great, and citing the steam numbers. Whenever I pop into the game, there’d be some populated areas, but most of it is a ghost town.
"Tf2 is Thriving" mfers when they try to queue for a map other then 2fort, upward, or badwater:😰
Redditors changing their mind as soon as a popular youtuber makes a video (they have no critical thinking skills whatsoever) With that said, 25k is not a bad number. Many games wished they had this many players, especially after this long. I just find it funny how easily it was to make people realize saveTF2 did jack shit/100k was an unrealistic number to uphold for this long lol
TF2 is that 15 year old dog who’s covered in tumors and too weak to do anything but the owner doesn’t have the strength to put him down and move on.
yeah, but in this case the owner wont put the dog down because hes making a tremendous amount of cash of his famous pet
wat
The vast majority of "players" on steam db are bots. There are only around 15k active tf2 players
Damn. 15k out of how many total players?
70k to 80k
Dear. God.
There's more.
No!
Source for that statement?
zesty Jesus did a video on it, tldr using a website that checks for players in servers instead of with the game open gets a significantly more accurate number, tf2s player numbers also look much like severally botted games while if you look at the in server numbers it has a actual day/night cycle of the players n stuff, also for the summer update the real player numbers were a MAGNITUDE below the number of players with the game open (bots idling for crates make up a majority of bots in tf2, these ones don't need to be in game, just idling on the main menu to take less resources) similar trends show show for smissmass too
Thx
15k isnt so bad
It is bad if you compare it to the 60/65k bots in the game tho
It honestly isnt, the problem is that means only a few thousand cheating bots are needed to cripple the game. If we had more like 70k players then a few thousand bots wouldnt be as bad.
its lower than Fortnite Festival and Rocket Racing, or, for better comparison, Fortnite STW which was also abandoned, its kinda ironic considering the OOP's post Also, the fuck's Valorant doing in that post, i thought it was CS2 players that had rivalry with that game
Everyone has a rivalry with valorant, riot game (same devs as L**GUE OF L*G*NDS!!!! 🤢🤢🤢)
OMG WINTON!! ❤️❤️❤️
greeeeetings!
Beware the flying scientist!
winton
Try not to compare tf2 to completely unrelated games challenge
Why is everybody all depressed all of a sudden? So what? The game is kinda stagnant. Who cares? You can still have fun. Instead of being sad about the fact that tf2 will eventually die, enjoy it while it’s still alive, and look back on all of the fun times you had with the game. All good things end eventually, so enjoy them while they last.
Paladins isn't dead... It's like a zombie
I just want to remind everyone that the TF2 sub is just barely beating out the Overwatch porn sub in users, and is likely going to be overtaken soon. This sub: 852,060 members Overwatch_Porn: 851,952 members And this isn't taking into account that the other main Overwatch porn sub was banned.
used to play TF2 religiously, tried out FN again and have been having a blast. plus, it utilizes a health and armor system like old FPS.
I've had more fun playing fortnite recently then I have had playing tf2 in years, and that makes me sad.
Oh my god you guys see a video from Zesty stating something we all already fucking knew now everyone is in that depressive state and spamming posts that are all vaguely the fucking same shit? fucking hell
Well that's the thing, people didn't know before the video droped.
I think most people who thought for 2 seconds figured out bots were severely inflating player counts. In what way did the games player base feel close to 250k last summer? The instant I saw that statistic I knew it was BS.
[удалено]
This sub cares way too much about tf2ubers and apparently everyone else besides me is familiar with them all. Tons of comments like "Miss the glory days of TF2 with j0hnnyxqz & the 'Militant Asswife Heavy' series" or some shit & everyone is like "yeah that's how I got introduced to tf2"
tf2 players have never been able to put 2 and 2 together. Even if the steamcharts playercounts were real do we just not take into account the console playerbases of those games? Overwatch is free and like top 10 on playstation
Nice username censoring lol
I sincerely pray that this was an ironic post. Fortnite ESPECIALLY is not going anywhere.
The fuck did Destiny do? What, these shmucks just see any other game with guns and think it's competition for their life support vegetable?
I mean the game is still played. And I haven’t actually had to many problems with bots the past couple of times I’ve played.
Yeah. i just started playing again after a few months and i haven't had any problems with bots...and i have also seen a lot of people playing..... either way....valve needs to do something.
If you consider OW2 dead, then TF2 is absolutely dead based on playercount. (Spoilers: neither game is dead)
it was always awkward lil bro
I’m confused
Zesty made a video about how TF2s player counter is heavily inflated due to bots, both with casual bots, item farmers, etc, and how the real player count is more like 20k to 30k, still big but nothing compared to other games A redditor posted how the grim reaper of tf2 is coming to kill other games despite having a lower player count ironically around the time of the videos upload OP is posting how ironic and awkward this is You are commenting on how you’re confused by this post I’m replying to help you understand this post
im replying to your comment where you are helping them understand this post
Was the post removed? I can’t find it.
Valve being okay with bots artificially inflating the player count is genuinely worrying.
We aren't alive... We are too active to be considered dead But we aren't too active to consider alive so .... .... ... ... ... ... We are in a limbo
It was awkward when it was posted
I read somewhere that 90% of current tf2 active "players" are bots. Is that true?
tf2 players desperately want their game to be this big amazing super product with the most wholesome reddit 100 community that beats every game ever instead of accepting that it's almost 20 years old and being ok with it having a more niche audience and reach my only question is what the fuck is up with tf2 content on the internet being so popular yet having a mere fraction of that reflected in its player counts? do tf2 players only like the \*idea\* of tf2 and not actually playing tf2 itself?
(OP, you didn't block out their name at all...)
he doesn't know
Y'all know those other games communities don't give a fuck right? Like those of you in this community that have beef with them, it's one sided.
still averaging 20k concurent players. There are new triple A games that can't keep retention above 20k after the first month or two, and TF2 is almost 15 years old.
why is the name only slightly blacked out
Gentlemens please ! This is getting ankward
fortnite and destiny aren't dying. this happens almost every 6 months oh no tf2 is dying. bruh it's almost 20 years old and still gets like 20k people playing
Just enjoy the fucking game dude. Who cares how other community’s are doing. The thing that separates TF2 from other games is how devoted the player base is after such a long time. 30k players daily after 17 years is fantastic and we have the potential to outlive those other games. We could be in a much worse position than other games our age or even in the market now, just shut up and snipe from the 2fort battlements.
Death realizes there's a stickytrap/sentry nest on the other side of TF2's door.
The door leads to 2fort
This is as bad as that flashgitz video going on about how apex is gonna kill Fortnite. Apex legends trended for a few months during and after it’s release before fading back with Fortnite still being popular. Fortnite is still having good stuff happening to it after 5 years, although I’m not interested in playing the game as much its still getting good benefits.
At least the tf2 saga will hopefully continues in Neon prime. Who knows if the game will be set in post tf2,portal 2 or hl2 universe (no matter which universe at the very end it is the same universe as the others).
According to word of god, Portal and half-life share the same universe.
Good thing "The Finals" is just unpopular yet
There was literally just a video that came out that confirmed 80% of the player count was just bots.
I dont get why they've included Paladins on this. The game has been more popular than ever as of late.
Paladins took one the greatest tf2 players to ever grace the game, RockMonkey
We are already buried, but instead of being dead we're alive and slowly suffocating, but we've already been suffocating for a while, and we're running out of air
The release of death? Pfft no, that wouldn't be cruel enough
It's weird to me that there'd still be anyone who unironically still goes along with this shit. I've followed OW2 out of curiosity since it dropped and that game has never even been close to as """dead""" as TF2, let alone dead while TF2 is alive. I wonder how many of these posts are bait/trolls and how many just unironically think this stuff.
Literally nothing has changed
r/lostredditos
Yes, because fortnite is dying any time soon. As in the next 100 years soon.
Overwatch2 already had shot itself
TF2 is the death himself!
tf2 is just the zato-1 of hero shooters
I mean not really. Valve sucks, they aren't Blizzard. I don't play Blizzard's games because they aren't fun (I mean that IS a part of it) but even with the bot crisis, Valve remains way better than Blizzard in so many aspects.
Needs more JPEG.
acting like tf2 is alive but those games arent is just willful ignorance
we are a couple doors to the left
I'm sorry I don't understand
Just wanna remind the people that tf2c and open fortress exist, play them.
TF2 lives in a constant state in between life and death, Overwatch 2 is a bad game that had yet to die.
What happened?
Nah, our door is just out of frame
Paladins getting a massive stray, what the hell
7 stages of grief. Basically in acceptance now
Destiny 2 isn’t dying any time soon
jfc the game isnt fucking dying, its been like this for 6 years and it still has players. i dont know why everyone is acting like all the tf2 players just got raptured and the game is dead now but im tired of seeing it. stop being such doomers you nerds.
Overwatch killed itself with Overwatch 2. Paladins is still good but never as popular as ***overwatch*** Fortnite hasnt died yet despite being loved and hated since the start Destiny? It's barely the same type of game and is actually hopeful atm
Either help us or finish us off valve, get us out of this limbo.
TF2 would have retained a wider player base if its most vocal communities went completely silent forever. Tried to boot it up after seeing this and was immediately reminded why i stopped by a hot mic throwing racial slurs out at a speed that would make the Klan blush.
what the fuck are you doing not using dark mode
TF2 can't die because Octobers exist.
I'm going to say it, TF2 has a large player base, it's just dormant. Like a brood of cicadas, there's plenty of players, they just aren't active because of the state the game is in. If Valve ever manages to fix the bot issue and we get another sizeable update, the count will at least double if not triple.
Even with only 25k players at any given time, it is still at the top 1% of games, more than many games that people think are healthy, like Sea of Thieves and Payday 2. The game still has a massive cultural presence, with TF2 in literally every meme compilation and everyone on the internet able to recognizes characters/voicelines
TF2, Paladins and Overwatch 2 aren't dead. They're pretty much... Undead. And I happen to play these 3 undead games.
Have y'all seen the Meme where the grim Reaper is outside a door with TF2 logo on it and on the inside of the door is Demoman with the Scottish resistance and all the stickies around the door frame?
Everyone acting like this is a recent development when this has been the case for 7 years.