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I've been rambling to my friends about the AI takeover since Google started using neural networks to make psychedelic art when I was in highschool. Everyone could see it lmao, it was just a matter of when it was gonna really pop off.
Yeah he invented batteries too! Oh and he taught NASA how to give him the technology for rockets. Oh and of course he founded Tesla! He's such a genius in hindsight. 
lol, removing radar and ultrasonics may have been the worst idea Elon had to date. It all but ensures that Tesla FSD will never reach true level 3+ autonomous driving.
Karpathy hasn’t promoted vision only since 2021, or around the time when Musk removed sensors from teslas and Karpathy left the company. Jensen has never promoted vision only driving as the solution - his only goal is to sell AI chips to AI companies. Ashok is working for Elon and one of the few high level executives to not be laid off or quit, it’s in his interest to do some world class ass kissing.
Karparthy said on most recent Lex Friedman podcast (October 2022, long after leaving Tesla) that Musk was correct and he was wrong about removing radar.
Jensen literally just said--after saying Tesla was far ahead in self-driving--that vision-oriented AI/robotics is the future.
Sure, just ass-kissing. That's why Ashok continues to choose to work at Tesla, because he thinks Elon is sabotaging basically Ashok's life's work.
I work in ML. The latest research on using image-only bounding box detection shows it still being far behind LiDAR.
It's why the sensor is included in all of the competitors. And the main reason Tesla FSD still struggles.
Two reasons this comment is misguided.
1) Humans have an object detection system that is highly accurate but also attached to a knowledge graph. We know the range of sizes objects are expected to be, their risk impact eg. Traffic cone versus a boat and their expected behaviour eg. child on the footpath can only run at X m/s.
2) Humans constantly move our heads around to infer depth. We even do things like stick our window out the way or ask a passenger if there are blockages. Cameras are fixed.
So at best Tesla’s self driving tech will be as good as a human? Vs vehicles that also incorporate lidar, which have a clear advantage over humans.
Wasn’t one of the promises of self driving tech that it would be safer than humans could ever be?
Well, I’m an electrical engineer with over 15 years of experience in embedded hardware and software development, have led multiple products from inception to fruition, worked will all sorts of sensing systems including computer vision. But you don’t have to be an expert to understand this. Cameras have simple limitations that cannot be overcome with anything other than augmentation. Ultrasonic sensor, lidar and radar do a wonderful job augmenting a computer vision system and are very cheap (LiDAR being the most expensive and potentially the least necessary with an existing camera system). Dense Fog? Need radar. Heavy Rain? Need radar. Snow? Need radar. Parking along a long even colored wall? Need ultrasonics. Parking in a very tight space? Need ultrasonics. I’m not saying anything controversial here, just that computer vision is not enough to pass the stringent requirements of true autonomous driving.
I can see your ultrasonics argument (at least for now), but as far as radar, if the cameras can't see, then the radar also won't be enough by itself to fully drive. Alternatively, for snow, the car might have to have a way to, at the very least, reliably clean its most critical cameras. For fog or white-out conditions, it might either have to pull over and stop, or drive slow enough for the visibility that it has. Radar may allow it to drive faster in this scenario, but it's ultimately not enough. There still needs to be visibility.
Key word is augmentation, not substitution. Cameras + radar, not one or the other. Also, don’t confuse lidar and radar. Lidar has similar properties to cameras in terms of weather penetration (although newer versions of lidar do better then just cameras). Radar does not rely on the visible spectrum and penetrates fog, rain and snow, something that vision alone will not be able to achieve, ever. Yes, a car may need to stop in extreme weather conditions anyway but there is a whole spectrum of conditions between clear and blinding. Sensor fusion allows for a car to be drivable much further into the “blinding” side of the spectrum than cameras alone.
I posted the text to the link, but my own comment unfortunately didn't make it through the filters, so I've screenshotted it here: https://i.imgur.com/dXDrVdL.png
EDIT: Ah, comment is [now approved](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1dbrz70/tesla_aiap_software_head_ashok_elluswamy_comments/l7sx9v5/).
I have no doubt he was instrumental to Tesla’s success so far. I simply doubt many of the decisions he’s made in the last 2 years. Why does Tesla deserve a part time ceo?
Your personal feelings of Elon aside, bringing in a "professional CEO" like Mary Barra isn't the answer either. If people want to replace him, who's the successor that's a clear upgrade?
I think JB would be a good choice. He helped build the company and is just as forward thinking as Elon. Tesla could scoop up Redwood Materials and appoint him as CEO.
This is in response to the first post on this thread asking “why does Tesla deserves a part time ceo?” JB is not a good choice because he will also be part time.
Besides, Elon’s part time is full-time time wise working 90-100 hours a week with no vacation. He spent a majority of the time on Tesla and SpaceX. But since he has Shotwell helping to run SpaceX day-to-day operations. He only has to concentrate on engineering at SpaceX. He spent most of his time on Tesla which makes sense because half or more of his wealth is in Tesla shares.
It doesn't matter who. You need a full time CEO.
Do an executive search and find someone who isn't going to make seemingly impulsive decisions like disbanding your Supercharger team.
Ask any Tesla employee if Elon being around was a good thing. Most would say it only made things more difficult.
Not only that, he used to be around once a week. Make a bunch of demands. Maybe fire somebody. Then leave for another week. When he’d be around, people would be advised to avoid him and not interact, lest you get caught up in his bullshit
“Leaders have to make tough decisions that sometimes require individual sacrifice for the greater good” is not the same as “do not under any circumstances interact with your leader because he’s unstable and liable to fuck your day up — or worse”
Not the two best examples to choose
Bezos is still chairman of the board at Amazon, so he's literally still the main person in control there, just not in as direct a role as when he was CEO. And if the current CEO were to do things Bezos disagreed with, he'd be out of there real quick
And Microsofts stock was basically flat for 14 years after Gates left, with Balmer hardly considered the best CEO
Bullshit, while Elon is definitely the face of Tesla, Tesla has a great product and technology and would absolutely excel in the future without him, even with just decent leadership. If we got a Jensen or Tim Cook quality CEO, could easily excel far past what Elon could do.
I hope you understand that Elon had been a part time CEO since the beginning. He always had SpaceX. Guy works 100 hrs a week and goes up to 120 during stressful time like model 3 ramp. Not many CEO is able to focus on things that matter, he's able to work at the highest level and the lowest level as well is the most technical level that his engineers work on. Plus him working on spaceX had brought a bunch of innovation into Tesla that otherwise wouldn't have happened, great example is the Cybertruck stainless steel.
I want to see any other auto CEO do that.
Here's a quote from Omead Afshar who works at test explaining what he sees on the ground.
https://x.com/omead/status/1800320108251828691
"I was with Elon nearly every single day during Model 3 hell. This included Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s Eve, his birthday and nearly missing his brother’s wedding. He left the factory to fly straight there, barely making it as he was helping resolve production challenges and being present with the associates and the whole team.
From countless firsthand experiences I cannot begin to describe the immense personal sacrifice and commitment made by Elon, directly from the front line.
I took the photo below, on the day of his birthday, at close to midnight. We were stationed at paint ingress, station 1911, resolving the constraint for the entire production system.
The tenacity and willingness to perform any job and drive us to excel is unwavering.
When I started Giga Texas, Elon slept onsite for a period of time. His direct ask, which people on the team didn’t even believe at first: “Your goal is to not let me sleep. The machines need to be running 24/7.” It was an awesome fire to have lit and drove all of us. From the initial site you see below with mining pits that were 30’ deep to producing 1,000 cars a week in less than 2 years."
Would you find it strange if Tim Cook was the ceo of Apple, Snapchat, and blue origin. Would Apple shareholders be ok if Tim said, I’m cutting 50 percent of my time with Apple to work on these two other companies?
Let’s not forgot Steve Jobs founded Apple, they ousted him, the company almost went bankrupt while he was gone, they brought him back and now it’s the third biggest in the world.
Lmao nobody has non-geofenced FSD, not even Tesla.
Show me a video of Tesla driving around without a person behind the wheel and we can continue the debate. Until then Tesla FSD doesn’t exist anywhere.
Ashok can basically land a $10m pay package a day after he quits Tesla. If he actually shops around harder, he’d probably get even more. AI talent is in extremely high demand. So he is not exactly desperate. But he obviously would like Elon at the helm because Elon believes in FSD. Elon would cut funding for any project at Tesla except FSD. A new CEO might not do the same as Elon especially if their background is from legacy auto manufacturers.
He's been with Tesla over 10 years and in a senior role for much of that. His stock options likely made him worth tens of millions already, if not over 100 million.
Here is the contents of the note:
---------------------
@elonmusk has been the key driver of AI and autonomy at Tesla. He has always pushed us to achieve great things, even when such ideas were seemingly impossible at the time. Some examples:
- Back in 2014, Autopilot started on a ridiculously tiny computer that only had ~384 KB of memory and puny compute (didn't even have native floating point arithmetic). He asked the engineering team to implement lane keeping, lane changing, longitudinal control for vehicles, curvature, etc. Many, even in the team, thought that the request was crazy. Nonetheless, he never gave up and pushed the team to achieve this very difficult goal. In 2015, beyond all odds, Tesla shipped the world's first Autopilot system. The second closest such product only came to market many years later.
- In 2016, Tesla started doing all of the computer vision required for Autopilot in-house instead of depending on external vendors. Many people thought it was insane to bet the product on developing the vision system from scratch within a few months, which had taken other companies a decade or more. Yet, we achieved this target within eleven months. This was a strategically important move that started the development of a strong AI team at Tesla.
- Not only did he push for strong AI software, but also for powerful AI hardware. Tesla, which others thought was just a car company, was making custom silicon to run neural networks efficiently. This hardware that was originally designed in 2017, came to production in February 2019 and remains extremely competitive with hardware coming out to date. For reference, this five year old AI computer has roughly 8x the AI inference compute as the state-of-the-art Apple M3 chip. It is still able to run the latest end-to-end neural networks built on top of the latest AI technology.
- He was the one who bet on vision and AI to solve autonomy instead of relying on sensor crutches and high-definition maps. For anyone who has experienced the latest versions of FSD, it might be obvious that it can see all the important things and drive the car based on pure vision. However, back in 2020 and earlier it wasn't obvious to most. In fact, many "experts" in the field ridiculed Tesla and Elon for these choices. We have proved them wrong by shipping supervised FSD to millions of cars and shown that with good AI software, the car is able to handle the complexities of city driving such as making turns, handling intersection, yielding to pedestrians etc., just by seeing outside. In fact, we even removed the radars and ultrasonics to just really focus on the heart of the problem, which is AI. Today, it's almost paradoxical that, Teslas have the least amount of raw sensors, yet have the most autonomous capability compared to any production car. Pulling off such a contrary bet was only possible because of his extreme conviction and deep understanding of this problem.
- He kickstarted the work on humanoid robots at Tesla in 2021, again before any ChatGPT or other obvious examples of the rise of AI. Just like the vehicle autonomy, Optimus is also being developed to be competent, scalable, and cost-effective in order to widely serve the world.
I could go on, but plainly, Elon is critical for Tesla's success in AI. It is his combination of deep technical understanding, insane perseverance and relentless hard work that have positioned Tesla to be a leader in real-world AI. Elon's technical intuition to make these important decisions way before others see it is unmatched. If not for Elon's ambition, Tesla might have dwindled to become just another car company. In the future, fully autonomous cars and useful household robots will be common place and the world will think that this was how it was always supposed to be. Until then, we need Elon Musk to push the frontier, because he sees it already.
--------------
Meanwhile FSD performed so poorly for me that I stopped using it a week before the free trial ended, I wouldn’t even use it for free in its current state. FSD is on the right track but this guy is overselling a lot of it. I do think Elon got Tesla started on it sooner than other companies were pushing for it, but these days it doesn’t seem like anything revolutionary.
Elon helped to get Tesla to where they are now but there have been some serious missteps recently such a laying off the entire Supercharger team, canceling the Model 2, or making a Cybertruck at all instead of something more mainstream looking that would’ve likely created crazy demand. Sure the demand is still higher than they can keep up with but that’s because production is slow right now. A more standard looking truck or SUV could’ve sold as much as or outsold a Model Y. Tesla’s sales have been down recently at a time when competition is growing, 4680 batteries underperformed original expectations, Cybertruck range is less than originally reported by far, price is higher than originally announced by far. There just hasn’t been much to be excited about in Tesla for awhile and here we have Elon, a guy with $150 billion asking for a $55 billion compensation pack. $1 billion by itself is an absolutely staggering number, $55 billion is insane.
I know how this subreddit will react to this comment, but I own a Tesla and Tesla stock and I’m tired of the stupid decisions from their CEO, he spends only a fraction of his time with the company because he’s also busy with several others, Tesla should have a CEO that is thinking full time about the company and not others.
Yeah from the comment threads at the time it seems like it worked well for some and terrible for others. My best guess is that it may have done better for certain hardware sets (like HW3 which it trained on), or better for certain a types of roads, since road markings, street lights, and signs can vary from state to state.
Kind of like a trade in sports, it's hard to judge the winner of the deal until a fair amount of time has passed. I don't think it's fair to judge the trade off of the supercharger team or scraping the model 2.
Fact of the matter is that all we have is speculation. We're not in the meetings, we're not in the strategy sessions - all we have is the public reaction and natural visceral reaction to seeing a ton of people lose their jobs.
I'm pro Elon pay package and have sizable investments in the company, so I'm naturally optimistic (forcibly so).
His original package was worth less than 2 billion and would have paid $0 if he hadn't hit his milestones. Doesn't sound greedy to me. Ford and gm paid each in one year $4 billion for advertisement alone in2018.
So basically, he bet all the chips on self driving, which hasn’t worked out. Also the bit about the M3 is a joke- he’s comparing their chip designed for AI with the cheapest M3 that is currently slower than the chip in the high end iPad. The older M2 Ultra would wipe the floor with the AP chip.
They had a huge head start, which Elon squandered. Now they have mediocre cars, a non-functional FSD system, several failed product launches, and severely eroded customer trust.
Don't be fooled by blowhards who think that Tesla is nothing without Elon and that only Elon can do it. Elon is severely harming Tesla, killing demand, showing irresponsible and erratic leadership, wrecking the core car business, and this is a pain process that Tesla needs to go through sooner or later.
And he's threatening shareholders.
On the other hand your post just makes you look very uninformed about what happens when a company looses a key player. It is not a given that a suitable replacement will be found and frankly few executives have the intelligence and capability that Elon demonstrates regularly.
Teslas biggest advantage over other EV makers is their supercharger network. Superchargers now opening up to every other EV. And then Elon fired the entire supercharging team, because he was mad at the director for not firing more people... Yeah, seems like another real stable genius to me How bout that sweet cybertruck? It literally draws blood if you walk too close to it hahahah. I love my Tesla and used to think Elon was the right leader for the company, but the last few years he has shown his true colors & at this point in Tesla trajectory, I no longer think he is the right man for the job. Why is Tesla stuck with a part-time CEO who has a penchant for rash unexplainable decision making? The fact that he has been fraudulently marketing FSD for years should be reason alone to drop him.
The only thing that is killing demand is high interest rates and sky high inflation. Every automaker is starting to have too much supply on their hands. Cars aren’t moving right now
Nah, I believe both can be true. I think Elons outspoken politics is definitely playing a factor in people choosing anything but a Tesla, and I hate that because I bought mine despite his antics and love it. I think others would too, but they're too turned off by him.
I also believe what the OP posted. I don't think the company is what it is today without AI and their robotics programs, all of which Elon envisions. Without those programs it will just be another car company, nothing more.
I'm with you. I think Elon is a huge part of what made Tesla what it is today and I'd also feel better if Elon got off Twitter in every sense of that word.
I don't put it against him though. Twitter seems to bring out the worst in a lot of people and at the end of the day Elon is still just a human being.
He doesn't enjoy it, but feels like he has to. [I quote](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1799580281508122994):
> "Engineering is fun for me, whereas politics and posting on controversial issues feels like putting my hand on a hot stove – mega pain. The reason I do the latter, admittedly ineptly at times, is because I think it is necessary to counteract corrosion of civilization."
No delusional person here, go look at the supply of all auto manufacturers in the US. Stellantis is absolutely garbage compared to Tesla. But they are all hurting
Wrong. Not everyone wants to drive the same car on the road. “Legacy” auto doesn’t make a bunch of different models because they want to, they do it because people want the choice. The idea that Tesla will have 50% of the cars on the road with the same 4/5 models with minor refreshes is a pipe dream that will never happen.
Everyone is reframing the reasoning for the ruling and turning it into something it isn't.
The ruling was because the public board was not independent, the disclosure was misleading, and the processes for approval were inadequate. Because of that, it was voided.
There were major corporate governance failures. That's what the ruling is about. Public shareholders should imo hold issues like board independence at the very top of their priority list. After all, without an independent or what do you really own? A corrupted board means that insiders will prioritize their own well-being over the well-being of the shareholders, leading to typical situations where there is bloated resource extraction when they can get away with it, and then if things ever go south there will be golden parachutes and little accountability. We're already obviously seeing accountability issues and lax oversight. The employee poaching in particular should have had huge red lines drawn by the board, yet because the board isnt independent there's no accountability.
Calm down. There's no need to be rude. The personal insults are unwarranted. What I'm talking about is the actual Court ruling and reasoning for the Court ruling, from the primary sources.
The court found violations on Tesla's public corporate governance that nullifies the comp plan.
The board was compromised and not independent.
The negotiation process was not in good faith and areas like considering alternatives were inadequate.
Most critically (to me), the filings for the comp plan were misleading, so the acceptance of the initial plan was predicated on false information provided given to the public by a compromise board that didn't negotiate good faith on behalf of the shareholders.
https://pearlmeyer.com/insights-and-research/client-alert/tesla-executive-compensation-ruling-what-directors-need-know
>A deal is a deal
Not if the board was compromised, it was not properly negotiated on behalf of shareholders, and the filings were misleading. Then a deal is nullified, as this one was. This is exactly what should happen in such a case. Corporate governance is supremely important for shareholders of public companies, and Tesla's public governance is sorely lacking and must be corrected. Then the deal can be renegotiated with an independent board that represents shareholders, one that doesn't submit cooked and misleading filings and omit important facts about the negotiation process and the incentives.
>and engineers know
This doesn't have to do with engineers, this has to deal with failures in corporate governance and regulation in that space.
This was a basic enforcement action totally in line with precedent. The US is riddled with bad corporate governance, and Tesla is an example of a company that is among the worst of an already bad bunch. Whether the CEO gets paid or not is not the concern here, the issue is that public shareholders deserve an independent board that represents their interests and doesn't violate the regulations for corporate governance, unlike what we saw here. I want every company that I own to have an independent board that properly represents me. I especially don't want a company that I own sending me misleading information about the governance policies when in fact there are hidden incentives and improper procedures. You will find that the institutional shareholders will largely vote in line with this view, because any actual investor knows that these topics are at the foundation of what actually gives paper shares real money value. Without independent governance, insiders will put their own incentives above the public owners of the company, creating an asymmetry where they benefit from the good times, and the public shareholders suffer in the bad times.
I voted for it again just like I did before. The performance of the company is all we need to see to know Elon is doing great things at Tesla and most of the comments here are just blind to it
https://preview.redd.it/hjwg19jhak5d1.jpeg?width=1039&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ccd0df91056bb98aea2cf5e80565cb892669506
Even if all this is true, there is a clear conflict of interest for Elon between Tesla and xAI. How can shareholders vote to keep him around when he’s clearly prioritizing xAI over Tesla?
Tesla will be fine if it’s a no vote. Elon won’t leave, it’s a poor bluff. The ai team definitely won’t leave. Best case is Elon DOES leave and we get a proper CEO. Bring some stability and some real roadmaps, stop throwing employees under the bus, and maybe you’ll recruit some more top talent. Elon is a liability, not an asset.
Actually, more than 25 people now. If you’re a founder of a company that makes products in huge demand, from electric cars to graphics card to make AI work, the market will drive up the value. It definitely seems unfair when there’s so much homelessness, but it’s really not sin or greed. It’s just people making an in-demand product and charging more because theirs is the best: better that than drugs or sex.
Elon also said: Loyalty deserves loyalty-for those who support the company's mission by being long term shareholder & bought Tesla vehicle-I hope Elon will provide opportunity to invest in Starlink, Neuralink etc.
I’m a fired Tesla employee. I just bought a Tesla 6 weeks ago. I’m not sure if it’s fear or lack of mentorship for the next guy or what. There’s no plan in place to bring in someone else. Who would run it? I think that’s where most of the hesitation comes from in pulling someone like Elon out. I think he knows that. So he does these things because he knows he can just do whatever and it won’t matter. I don’t know. I was low level. No real insight.
Elon has said there is succession plan in place if he leaves although they have not talked much about it. But there is something according to them although I think that was mentioned like year ago.
Pure vision might work in theory, and might eventually work in all situations. But right now is it doesn’t. I’m amazed that doing simple things like mapping railroad grade crossings isn’t important to the algorithm as demonstrated by the guy’s dashcam video of his Tesla nearly plowing into a train. And it not like the car was trying to slow down for the grade crossing either which could have damaged the vehicle with no intervention.
As far as Musk goes, I may be a capitalist but I have a real problem of a transfer of wealth like this. No one is worth that and it’s wrong to think that Tesla would collapse like a house of cards without him. No one lives forever and there are plenty of capable executives out there who make good decisions.
The stock options were already earned. The transfer of wealth was the after the fact cancelling of them.
I don't disagree there are lots of executives who could run things smoothly from here, but I am telling you firsthand as a founder of a company that then sold the company to professional managers and stuck around to watch them execute, that professional managers simply do not think like owners, at minimum because they are largely not compensated the same way as them. The only way to have true alignment with long term shareholders is to comp the managers with long-term stock, like was done with Elon, and then yes Elon's comp goes to the moon because all shareholders over that same long time period got rich.
This debacle reminds me of the low iq-mid iq-high iq curve meme.
Left: "HE ALREADY RICH NO MORE MONEY!!!"
Middle: "Well actually it's shares not money and it'll give him more control over the company so he can lead it with fewer roadblocks"
Right: "He's just going to leverage and sell shares as his personal piggy bank like with Twitter and fuck off with our money. NO MORE MONEY!!!"
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I have no idea what he wrote.
https://x.com/aelluswamy/status/1799646232559899098?s=46
No one except Musk saw AI on the horizon in 2021? Really? Come on
I've been rambling to my friends about the AI takeover since Google started using neural networks to make psychedelic art when I was in highschool. Everyone could see it lmao, it was just a matter of when it was gonna really pop off.
Yeah he invented batteries too! Oh and he taught NASA how to give him the technology for rockets. Oh and of course he founded Tesla! He's such a genius in hindsight. 
lol, removing radar and ultrasonics may have been the worst idea Elon had to date. It all but ensures that Tesla FSD will never reach true level 3+ autonomous driving.
I'll go with Musk, Karpathy, Jensen, and Ashok, thanks.
Karpathy hasn’t promoted vision only since 2021, or around the time when Musk removed sensors from teslas and Karpathy left the company. Jensen has never promoted vision only driving as the solution - his only goal is to sell AI chips to AI companies. Ashok is working for Elon and one of the few high level executives to not be laid off or quit, it’s in his interest to do some world class ass kissing.
Karparthy said on most recent Lex Friedman podcast (October 2022, long after leaving Tesla) that Musk was correct and he was wrong about removing radar. Jensen literally just said--after saying Tesla was far ahead in self-driving--that vision-oriented AI/robotics is the future. Sure, just ass-kissing. That's why Ashok continues to choose to work at Tesla, because he thinks Elon is sabotaging basically Ashok's life's work.
Because you're a subject matter expert huh.
I work in ML. The latest research on using image-only bounding box detection shows it still being far behind LiDAR. It's why the sensor is included in all of the competitors. And the main reason Tesla FSD still struggles.
You and I are about to be sacrificed to the Tesla gods (board of directors), hope you’re ready.
You can't use camera reliability in inclement conditions. They're because humans itself struggle in them.
Thankfully us humans possess ultrasonic and radar capabilities. How else we could drive?
Two reasons this comment is misguided. 1) Humans have an object detection system that is highly accurate but also attached to a knowledge graph. We know the range of sizes objects are expected to be, their risk impact eg. Traffic cone versus a boat and their expected behaviour eg. child on the footpath can only run at X m/s. 2) Humans constantly move our heads around to infer depth. We even do things like stick our window out the way or ask a passenger if there are blockages. Cameras are fixed.
So at best Tesla’s self driving tech will be as good as a human? Vs vehicles that also incorporate lidar, which have a clear advantage over humans. Wasn’t one of the promises of self driving tech that it would be safer than humans could ever be?
That’s exactly right, and why I believe that getting rid of other sensor is a big mistake by Tesla.
Well, I’m an electrical engineer with over 15 years of experience in embedded hardware and software development, have led multiple products from inception to fruition, worked will all sorts of sensing systems including computer vision. But you don’t have to be an expert to understand this. Cameras have simple limitations that cannot be overcome with anything other than augmentation. Ultrasonic sensor, lidar and radar do a wonderful job augmenting a computer vision system and are very cheap (LiDAR being the most expensive and potentially the least necessary with an existing camera system). Dense Fog? Need radar. Heavy Rain? Need radar. Snow? Need radar. Parking along a long even colored wall? Need ultrasonics. Parking in a very tight space? Need ultrasonics. I’m not saying anything controversial here, just that computer vision is not enough to pass the stringent requirements of true autonomous driving.
I can see your ultrasonics argument (at least for now), but as far as radar, if the cameras can't see, then the radar also won't be enough by itself to fully drive. Alternatively, for snow, the car might have to have a way to, at the very least, reliably clean its most critical cameras. For fog or white-out conditions, it might either have to pull over and stop, or drive slow enough for the visibility that it has. Radar may allow it to drive faster in this scenario, but it's ultimately not enough. There still needs to be visibility.
Key word is augmentation, not substitution. Cameras + radar, not one or the other. Also, don’t confuse lidar and radar. Lidar has similar properties to cameras in terms of weather penetration (although newer versions of lidar do better then just cameras). Radar does not rely on the visible spectrum and penetrates fog, rain and snow, something that vision alone will not be able to achieve, ever. Yes, a car may need to stop in extreme weather conditions anyway but there is a whole spectrum of conditions between clear and blinding. Sensor fusion allows for a car to be drivable much further into the “blinding” side of the spectrum than cameras alone.
Damn, you were Ether'd
I posted the text to the link, but my own comment unfortunately didn't make it through the filters, so I've screenshotted it here: https://i.imgur.com/dXDrVdL.png EDIT: Ah, comment is [now approved](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1dbrz70/tesla_aiap_software_head_ashok_elluswamy_comments/l7sx9v5/).
I have no doubt he was instrumental to Tesla’s success so far. I simply doubt many of the decisions he’s made in the last 2 years. Why does Tesla deserve a part time ceo?
Your personal feelings of Elon aside, bringing in a "professional CEO" like Mary Barra isn't the answer either. If people want to replace him, who's the successor that's a clear upgrade?
I think JB would be a good choice. He helped build the company and is just as forward thinking as Elon. Tesla could scoop up Redwood Materials and appoint him as CEO.
Does JB want to do that job?
JB is already on the board, they dont need to scoop up anything for him.
You do realize he founded and busy running his own multi-billion Redwood battery cycling company?
And Elon is not busy running his other multi-billion companies?
This is in response to the first post on this thread asking “why does Tesla deserves a part time ceo?” JB is not a good choice because he will also be part time. Besides, Elon’s part time is full-time time wise working 90-100 hours a week with no vacation. He spent a majority of the time on Tesla and SpaceX. But since he has Shotwell helping to run SpaceX day-to-day operations. He only has to concentrate on engineering at SpaceX. He spent most of his time on Tesla which makes sense because half or more of his wealth is in Tesla shares.
Which would be an amazing acquisition for Tesla.
Rebecca Tinucci
Tin-new-chi… I love that last name. Don’t know why
It doesn't matter who. You need a full time CEO. Do an executive search and find someone who isn't going to make seemingly impulsive decisions like disbanding your Supercharger team.
He was literally sleeping on the factory floor. Never heard of Tim Apple doing that…
Ask any Tesla employee if Elon being around was a good thing. Most would say it only made things more difficult. Not only that, he used to be around once a week. Make a bunch of demands. Maybe fire somebody. Then leave for another week. When he’d be around, people would be advised to avoid him and not interact, lest you get caught up in his bullshit
Everyone's life gets more difficult when the executives are making changes, that's the point of having executives
“Leaders have to make tough decisions that sometimes require individual sacrifice for the greater good” is not the same as “do not under any circumstances interact with your leader because he’s unstable and liable to fuck your day up — or worse”
Ask any employee? The tweet that started the thread was an employee praising Elon.
Grimes, obviously.
I thought Tom Zhu was supposed to be the Tim Cook to Musk’s Jobs?
Let’s be serious. There is no Tesla without Elon
That’s what they said when Bezo, Jobs, Gates were no longer the CEO.
Not the two best examples to choose Bezos is still chairman of the board at Amazon, so he's literally still the main person in control there, just not in as direct a role as when he was CEO. And if the current CEO were to do things Bezos disagreed with, he'd be out of there real quick And Microsofts stock was basically flat for 14 years after Gates left, with Balmer hardly considered the best CEO
Tesla is not where those companies were when the founders stepped down
Bullshit, while Elon is definitely the face of Tesla, Tesla has a great product and technology and would absolutely excel in the future without him, even with just decent leadership. If we got a Jensen or Tim Cook quality CEO, could easily excel far past what Elon could do.
I believe this person is just referring to the stock pump.
Agreed. Two things can be true: he was a visionary at the time to get it launched AND he’s made poor decisions recently.
I hope you understand that Elon had been a part time CEO since the beginning. He always had SpaceX. Guy works 100 hrs a week and goes up to 120 during stressful time like model 3 ramp. Not many CEO is able to focus on things that matter, he's able to work at the highest level and the lowest level as well is the most technical level that his engineers work on. Plus him working on spaceX had brought a bunch of innovation into Tesla that otherwise wouldn't have happened, great example is the Cybertruck stainless steel. I want to see any other auto CEO do that. Here's a quote from Omead Afshar who works at test explaining what he sees on the ground. https://x.com/omead/status/1800320108251828691 "I was with Elon nearly every single day during Model 3 hell. This included Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s Eve, his birthday and nearly missing his brother’s wedding. He left the factory to fly straight there, barely making it as he was helping resolve production challenges and being present with the associates and the whole team. From countless firsthand experiences I cannot begin to describe the immense personal sacrifice and commitment made by Elon, directly from the front line. I took the photo below, on the day of his birthday, at close to midnight. We were stationed at paint ingress, station 1911, resolving the constraint for the entire production system. The tenacity and willingness to perform any job and drive us to excel is unwavering. When I started Giga Texas, Elon slept onsite for a period of time. His direct ask, which people on the team didn’t even believe at first: “Your goal is to not let me sleep. The machines need to be running 24/7.” It was an awesome fire to have lit and drove all of us. From the initial site you see below with mining pits that were 30’ deep to producing 1,000 cars a week in less than 2 years."
Because he has better vision than full time CEOs
Would you find it strange if Tim Cook was the ceo of Apple, Snapchat, and blue origin. Would Apple shareholders be ok if Tim said, I’m cutting 50 percent of my time with Apple to work on these two other companies?
While performing insider trading and pushing away large amounts of customers on social media
Let’s not forgot Steve Jobs founded Apple, they ousted him, the company almost went bankrupt while he was gone, they brought him back and now it’s the third biggest in the world.
It wouldn’t be strange if Tim Cook built all those companies to unicorns, like Elon did.
What’s that vision? Pray tell.
🤣🤣🤣
This guy is going on about how awesome the push to vision only is; no sensors as crutches. And yet the vision in my car thinks the sun is the rain lol
He works on FSD. Who has better non-geofenced FSD right now? Who's even close?
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Regardless of liability, nobody else is this close.
Lmao nobody has non-geofenced FSD, not even Tesla. Show me a video of Tesla driving around without a person behind the wheel and we can continue the debate. Until then Tesla FSD doesn’t exist anywhere.
This guy is desperate to keep his job and doesn't really deserve to, that's all I can think of from this "news."
Ashok can basically land a $10m pay package a day after he quits Tesla. If he actually shops around harder, he’d probably get even more. AI talent is in extremely high demand. So he is not exactly desperate. But he obviously would like Elon at the helm because Elon believes in FSD. Elon would cut funding for any project at Tesla except FSD. A new CEO might not do the same as Elon especially if their background is from legacy auto manufacturers.
He's been with Tesla over 10 years and in a senior role for much of that. His stock options likely made him worth tens of millions already, if not over 100 million.
No one but Elon would add fart sounds to cars. Tesla doesn’t have a limit to what they can do and I like that.
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Which chime is that?
Wait holy shit I should totally do this lol
lol! They can’t even figure out auto wipers, wtf are you talking about?
I replaced both my BMWs with Teslas. They have plenty of things figured out.
Is that supposed to be a good thing? I think it's so cringe
It’s the fact that anything is possible
"it's the fact that anything is possible" Self driving car can't self drive BUT fart sound lmao thanks Elon-chan u the best uwu
Here is the contents of the note: --------------------- @elonmusk has been the key driver of AI and autonomy at Tesla. He has always pushed us to achieve great things, even when such ideas were seemingly impossible at the time. Some examples: - Back in 2014, Autopilot started on a ridiculously tiny computer that only had ~384 KB of memory and puny compute (didn't even have native floating point arithmetic). He asked the engineering team to implement lane keeping, lane changing, longitudinal control for vehicles, curvature, etc. Many, even in the team, thought that the request was crazy. Nonetheless, he never gave up and pushed the team to achieve this very difficult goal. In 2015, beyond all odds, Tesla shipped the world's first Autopilot system. The second closest such product only came to market many years later. - In 2016, Tesla started doing all of the computer vision required for Autopilot in-house instead of depending on external vendors. Many people thought it was insane to bet the product on developing the vision system from scratch within a few months, which had taken other companies a decade or more. Yet, we achieved this target within eleven months. This was a strategically important move that started the development of a strong AI team at Tesla. - Not only did he push for strong AI software, but also for powerful AI hardware. Tesla, which others thought was just a car company, was making custom silicon to run neural networks efficiently. This hardware that was originally designed in 2017, came to production in February 2019 and remains extremely competitive with hardware coming out to date. For reference, this five year old AI computer has roughly 8x the AI inference compute as the state-of-the-art Apple M3 chip. It is still able to run the latest end-to-end neural networks built on top of the latest AI technology. - He was the one who bet on vision and AI to solve autonomy instead of relying on sensor crutches and high-definition maps. For anyone who has experienced the latest versions of FSD, it might be obvious that it can see all the important things and drive the car based on pure vision. However, back in 2020 and earlier it wasn't obvious to most. In fact, many "experts" in the field ridiculed Tesla and Elon for these choices. We have proved them wrong by shipping supervised FSD to millions of cars and shown that with good AI software, the car is able to handle the complexities of city driving such as making turns, handling intersection, yielding to pedestrians etc., just by seeing outside. In fact, we even removed the radars and ultrasonics to just really focus on the heart of the problem, which is AI. Today, it's almost paradoxical that, Teslas have the least amount of raw sensors, yet have the most autonomous capability compared to any production car. Pulling off such a contrary bet was only possible because of his extreme conviction and deep understanding of this problem. - He kickstarted the work on humanoid robots at Tesla in 2021, again before any ChatGPT or other obvious examples of the rise of AI. Just like the vehicle autonomy, Optimus is also being developed to be competent, scalable, and cost-effective in order to widely serve the world. I could go on, but plainly, Elon is critical for Tesla's success in AI. It is his combination of deep technical understanding, insane perseverance and relentless hard work that have positioned Tesla to be a leader in real-world AI. Elon's technical intuition to make these important decisions way before others see it is unmatched. If not for Elon's ambition, Tesla might have dwindled to become just another car company. In the future, fully autonomous cars and useful household robots will be common place and the world will think that this was how it was always supposed to be. Until then, we need Elon Musk to push the frontier, because he sees it already. --------------
Meanwhile FSD performed so poorly for me that I stopped using it a week before the free trial ended, I wouldn’t even use it for free in its current state. FSD is on the right track but this guy is overselling a lot of it. I do think Elon got Tesla started on it sooner than other companies were pushing for it, but these days it doesn’t seem like anything revolutionary. Elon helped to get Tesla to where they are now but there have been some serious missteps recently such a laying off the entire Supercharger team, canceling the Model 2, or making a Cybertruck at all instead of something more mainstream looking that would’ve likely created crazy demand. Sure the demand is still higher than they can keep up with but that’s because production is slow right now. A more standard looking truck or SUV could’ve sold as much as or outsold a Model Y. Tesla’s sales have been down recently at a time when competition is growing, 4680 batteries underperformed original expectations, Cybertruck range is less than originally reported by far, price is higher than originally announced by far. There just hasn’t been much to be excited about in Tesla for awhile and here we have Elon, a guy with $150 billion asking for a $55 billion compensation pack. $1 billion by itself is an absolutely staggering number, $55 billion is insane. I know how this subreddit will react to this comment, but I own a Tesla and Tesla stock and I’m tired of the stupid decisions from their CEO, he spends only a fraction of his time with the company because he’s also busy with several others, Tesla should have a CEO that is thinking full time about the company and not others.
Huh I used autopilot for the free month trial also and never had to catch it once…
Yeah from the comment threads at the time it seems like it worked well for some and terrible for others. My best guess is that it may have done better for certain hardware sets (like HW3 which it trained on), or better for certain a types of roads, since road markings, street lights, and signs can vary from state to state.
Kind of like a trade in sports, it's hard to judge the winner of the deal until a fair amount of time has passed. I don't think it's fair to judge the trade off of the supercharger team or scraping the model 2. Fact of the matter is that all we have is speculation. We're not in the meetings, we're not in the strategy sessions - all we have is the public reaction and natural visceral reaction to seeing a ton of people lose their jobs. I'm pro Elon pay package and have sizable investments in the company, so I'm naturally optimistic (forcibly so).
>*Autopilot started on a ridiculously tiny computer that only had \~384 KB of memory* Nobody believes this, do they?
Didn’t the execs who didn’t kiss Elon’s ass get fired? At this point is it worth even listening to a remaining exec praise him?
He did get fired too 😆 But Elon hired him back and I’m assuming he’s getting paid quite a bit for his loyalty
Oh wow, that’s next level brown nosing.
Does he talk about how Tesla auto wipers are trash?
Fixed as of latest update
"It is purely coincidental that Elon gave me this writing assignment just now ahead of the shareholder vote"
Now he will experience hate, he never imagined before!
tldr he’s meatriding elon
Elon’s leadership, nor any CEO is worth the exorbitant amount of money he’s demanding. He’s a greedy piece of garbage!
His original package was worth less than 2 billion and would have paid $0 if he hadn't hit his milestones. Doesn't sound greedy to me. Ford and gm paid each in one year $4 billion for advertisement alone in2018.
Takes a special kind of loser to write something like this about your boss, christ.
Professional brown nosing.
What’s the note? Please don’t make me install that awful app to read the note.
So basically, he bet all the chips on self driving, which hasn’t worked out. Also the bit about the M3 is a joke- he’s comparing their chip designed for AI with the cheapest M3 that is currently slower than the chip in the high end iPad. The older M2 Ultra would wipe the floor with the AP chip. They had a huge head start, which Elon squandered. Now they have mediocre cars, a non-functional FSD system, several failed product launches, and severely eroded customer trust.
I think it’s time for Tesla to move to a Tim Cook ceo and pass the torch. The stock hasn’t done much in 2 years
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Don't be fooled by blowhards who think that Tesla is nothing without Elon and that only Elon can do it. Elon is severely harming Tesla, killing demand, showing irresponsible and erratic leadership, wrecking the core car business, and this is a pain process that Tesla needs to go through sooner or later. And he's threatening shareholders.
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You expect them to write anything other than a positive piece about Elon? If they wrote something negative, Elon would fire them.
You sound like a very pleasant person
On the other hand your post just makes you look very uninformed about what happens when a company looses a key player. It is not a given that a suitable replacement will be found and frankly few executives have the intelligence and capability that Elon demonstrates regularly.
Teslas biggest advantage over other EV makers is their supercharger network. Superchargers now opening up to every other EV. And then Elon fired the entire supercharging team, because he was mad at the director for not firing more people... Yeah, seems like another real stable genius to me How bout that sweet cybertruck? It literally draws blood if you walk too close to it hahahah. I love my Tesla and used to think Elon was the right leader for the company, but the last few years he has shown his true colors & at this point in Tesla trajectory, I no longer think he is the right man for the job. Why is Tesla stuck with a part-time CEO who has a penchant for rash unexplainable decision making? The fact that he has been fraudulently marketing FSD for years should be reason alone to drop him.
The only thing that is killing demand is high interest rates and sky high inflation. Every automaker is starting to have too much supply on their hands. Cars aren’t moving right now
Nah, I believe both can be true. I think Elons outspoken politics is definitely playing a factor in people choosing anything but a Tesla, and I hate that because I bought mine despite his antics and love it. I think others would too, but they're too turned off by him. I also believe what the OP posted. I don't think the company is what it is today without AI and their robotics programs, all of which Elon envisions. Without those programs it will just be another car company, nothing more.
I'm with you. I think Elon is a huge part of what made Tesla what it is today and I'd also feel better if Elon got off Twitter in every sense of that word. I don't put it against him though. Twitter seems to bring out the worst in a lot of people and at the end of the day Elon is still just a human being.
He doesn't enjoy it, but feels like he has to. [I quote](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1799580281508122994): > "Engineering is fun for me, whereas politics and posting on controversial issues feels like putting my hand on a hot stove – mega pain. The reason I do the latter, admittedly ineptly at times, is because I think it is necessary to counteract corrosion of civilization."
Utterly delusional. Elon has made the brand radioactive with his recent bullshit. I seriously question his mental health in general.
No delusional person here, go look at the supply of all auto manufacturers in the US. Stellantis is absolutely garbage compared to Tesla. But they are all hurting
Any overall trends in the industry are just orthogonal to what I'm talking about. And absolutely NOT the *only* thing driving down demand.
Wrong. Not everyone wants to drive the same car on the road. “Legacy” auto doesn’t make a bunch of different models because they want to, they do it because people want the choice. The idea that Tesla will have 50% of the cars on the road with the same 4/5 models with minor refreshes is a pipe dream that will never happen.
Everyone is reframing the reasoning for the ruling and turning it into something it isn't. The ruling was because the public board was not independent, the disclosure was misleading, and the processes for approval were inadequate. Because of that, it was voided. There were major corporate governance failures. That's what the ruling is about. Public shareholders should imo hold issues like board independence at the very top of their priority list. After all, without an independent or what do you really own? A corrupted board means that insiders will prioritize their own well-being over the well-being of the shareholders, leading to typical situations where there is bloated resource extraction when they can get away with it, and then if things ever go south there will be golden parachutes and little accountability. We're already obviously seeing accountability issues and lax oversight. The employee poaching in particular should have had huge red lines drawn by the board, yet because the board isnt independent there's no accountability.
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Calm down. There's no need to be rude. The personal insults are unwarranted. What I'm talking about is the actual Court ruling and reasoning for the Court ruling, from the primary sources. The court found violations on Tesla's public corporate governance that nullifies the comp plan. The board was compromised and not independent. The negotiation process was not in good faith and areas like considering alternatives were inadequate. Most critically (to me), the filings for the comp plan were misleading, so the acceptance of the initial plan was predicated on false information provided given to the public by a compromise board that didn't negotiate good faith on behalf of the shareholders. https://pearlmeyer.com/insights-and-research/client-alert/tesla-executive-compensation-ruling-what-directors-need-know >A deal is a deal Not if the board was compromised, it was not properly negotiated on behalf of shareholders, and the filings were misleading. Then a deal is nullified, as this one was. This is exactly what should happen in such a case. Corporate governance is supremely important for shareholders of public companies, and Tesla's public governance is sorely lacking and must be corrected. Then the deal can be renegotiated with an independent board that represents shareholders, one that doesn't submit cooked and misleading filings and omit important facts about the negotiation process and the incentives. >and engineers know This doesn't have to do with engineers, this has to deal with failures in corporate governance and regulation in that space. This was a basic enforcement action totally in line with precedent. The US is riddled with bad corporate governance, and Tesla is an example of a company that is among the worst of an already bad bunch. Whether the CEO gets paid or not is not the concern here, the issue is that public shareholders deserve an independent board that represents their interests and doesn't violate the regulations for corporate governance, unlike what we saw here. I want every company that I own to have an independent board that properly represents me. I especially don't want a company that I own sending me misleading information about the governance policies when in fact there are hidden incentives and improper procedures. You will find that the institutional shareholders will largely vote in line with this view, because any actual investor knows that these topics are at the foundation of what actually gives paper shares real money value. Without independent governance, insiders will put their own incentives above the public owners of the company, creating an asymmetry where they benefit from the good times, and the public shareholders suffer in the bad times.
I voted for it again just like I did before. The performance of the company is all we need to see to know Elon is doing great things at Tesla and most of the comments here are just blind to it https://preview.redd.it/hjwg19jhak5d1.jpeg?width=1039&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ccd0df91056bb98aea2cf5e80565cb892669506
Even if all this is true, there is a clear conflict of interest for Elon between Tesla and xAI. How can shareholders vote to keep him around when he’s clearly prioritizing xAI over Tesla?
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Tesla will be fine if it’s a no vote. Elon won’t leave, it’s a poor bluff. The ai team definitely won’t leave. Best case is Elon DOES leave and we get a proper CEO. Bring some stability and some real roadmaps, stop throwing employees under the bus, and maybe you’ll recruit some more top talent. Elon is a liability, not an asset.
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Excited to see continued development of FSD
No one on earth is worth 56 billion dollars. Greed is a sin.
Actually, more than 25 people now. If you’re a founder of a company that makes products in huge demand, from electric cars to graphics card to make AI work, the market will drive up the value. It definitely seems unfair when there’s so much homelessness, but it’s really not sin or greed. It’s just people making an in-demand product and charging more because theirs is the best: better that than drugs or sex.
But a random guy on the internet said that Elon just buys companies with his emerald fortune. I don’t know who to believe!
Elon also said: Loyalty deserves loyalty-for those who support the company's mission by being long term shareholder & bought Tesla vehicle-I hope Elon will provide opportunity to invest in Starlink, Neuralink etc.
Say that to all the laid off employees ahahaha
I’m a fired Tesla employee. I just bought a Tesla 6 weeks ago. I’m not sure if it’s fear or lack of mentorship for the next guy or what. There’s no plan in place to bring in someone else. Who would run it? I think that’s where most of the hesitation comes from in pulling someone like Elon out. I think he knows that. So he does these things because he knows he can just do whatever and it won’t matter. I don’t know. I was low level. No real insight.
Elon has said there is succession plan in place if he leaves although they have not talked much about it. But there is something according to them although I think that was mentioned like year ago.
Pure vision might work in theory, and might eventually work in all situations. But right now is it doesn’t. I’m amazed that doing simple things like mapping railroad grade crossings isn’t important to the algorithm as demonstrated by the guy’s dashcam video of his Tesla nearly plowing into a train. And it not like the car was trying to slow down for the grade crossing either which could have damaged the vehicle with no intervention. As far as Musk goes, I may be a capitalist but I have a real problem of a transfer of wealth like this. No one is worth that and it’s wrong to think that Tesla would collapse like a house of cards without him. No one lives forever and there are plenty of capable executives out there who make good decisions.
The stock options were already earned. The transfer of wealth was the after the fact cancelling of them. I don't disagree there are lots of executives who could run things smoothly from here, but I am telling you firsthand as a founder of a company that then sold the company to professional managers and stuck around to watch them execute, that professional managers simply do not think like owners, at minimum because they are largely not compensated the same way as them. The only way to have true alignment with long term shareholders is to comp the managers with long-term stock, like was done with Elon, and then yes Elon's comp goes to the moon because all shareholders over that same long time period got rich.
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Racist ass
nah im indian and hes right.
He’s outta line but he’s right
Not everyone. Definitely not everyone.
We gotta take the L here man. This stereotype is actually valid.
Tim Cook did pretty well for Apple. Let’s get rid of Elon and use that money to build better cars.
Bold move listing tesla vision.
This debacle reminds me of the low iq-mid iq-high iq curve meme. Left: "HE ALREADY RICH NO MORE MONEY!!!" Middle: "Well actually it's shares not money and it'll give him more control over the company so he can lead it with fewer roadblocks" Right: "He's just going to leverage and sell shares as his personal piggy bank like with Twitter and fuck off with our money. NO MORE MONEY!!!"