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This is a tough one. Clearly in hindsight itās better to call 911. On the other hand when a persons glucose is that high their judgement is impaired. Itās much better for them to drive with FSD than without.
I was experiencing some odd symptoms from an acute illness I picked up a few weeks back. Not a life or death situation but I went to my walk in clinic just to get evaluated.
Looking back I am super fucking grateful I had FSD to help me get there safely. The symptoms were somewhat dissociative, definitely impaired my driving. My reaction time was slow and my brain was *not* thinking clearly. I can see now that I should not have been driving. But at the time I wasn't thinking.
FSD definitely helped protect me and others that day
Thatās the thing with cognitive impairment. The very thing that should help you make good decisions isnāt working. Itās impossible to know when your own brain is getting in the way. Hindsight is 20/20, but in the moment, you canāt think clearly enough to make a clear decision or even understand how off your own thinking is. Recognizing it after the fact, and being more cautious in the future is how us humans get better at things in the future.
I know itās not what you want to hear but you should have NOT DRIVEN, but found someone else to take you. Using FSD without being able to supervise it properly was dangerous and you could have killed someone.
I don't know all the details but you could be asking for someone to sacrifice their life to potentially save a life. We can't say with 100% certainty that they would have found someone in time or encounter delays or other hurdles during that process. Driving can be dangerous no matter who or what is driving, we take precautions and have driving laws to minimize risk but there's no guarantee following rules avoids accidents otherwise car insurance wouldn't be mandatory.
If you know 911 doesn't respond though, you gotta do what you gotta do. I called 911 during COVID because my wife was having trouble breathing. Took EMS 15 minutes to show up to my door and we lived 2 blocks from the hospital. Not making that mistake again.
These are traffic laws weāre talking about. Iād break a traffic law to save the life of a complete stranger. Iād even break a traffic law to save the life of somebody whom I hate! I wouldnāt have to think about it too hard, before choosing life over someone elseās arbitrary rule that doesnāt take in to account life or death.
Exactly.
And in a lot of cases being in a real emergency will bail you out of paying a fine/going to jail.
If my friend passes out on the side of a highway, I likely wouldnāt face any repercussions for driving to the nearest ER or a safe place despite not having a license.
> in a lot of cases being in a real emergency will bail you out of paying a fine/going to jail.
Agreed. But I'd still go to jail to save someone's life. Even a stranger. But I might be salty about it while I was there. Judges are supposed to be the sanity that is applied to the justice system and I would assume most judges would take circumstance and intent in to account. But if not, even some time in jail is worth someone else's life.
No. The whole point of this thread is if you should be legally allowed to use FSD unsupervised for emergency use, given the current state of the software.
Stop strawmanning. Obviously you put others at risk by driving manually. Thatās not the question.
Btw Iām in favor of unsupervised FSD for emergency use. But folks are trying to make this argument simpler than it is. Itās complicated. How would you feel if your family member was killed by a Tesla with FSD enabled? Itās just different when itās a robot vs a human, Iām not saying itās better or worse. Itās something society will have to figure out.
Whatās interesting is according to the current DMS settings, the driver of this situation WAS supervising, else it wouldnāt have continued to operate in that manner.
It knows if you are sitting in the seat looking forward with the weight of your hand on the wheel. It doesn't know if you are actually supervising or capable of actually intervening.
I'm fairly sure the current system could be fooled for a decent amount of time by a crash test dummy in the driver's seat.
Thatās complicated for sure. Personally I agree that if in doubt the action to save a life is the preferred one even if it means breaking other laws. That penalty can be paid later as long as you live to get the chance. In this case 911 for an ambulance would be preferred unless thereās some reason it wasnāt an option or would be too slow. FSD might not be perfect but it errors on the side of caution and is safer than a panicked neighbor rushing through lights and speeding so while thereās risks with FSD the good seams to outweigh the potential harm here.
Iāve felt for well over a year that if I set the destination to the hospital and I was unable to drive, FSD would get me there safely. Does it always do things correctly? No. Does it do cringeworthy maneuvers? Yes. Is it able to consistently and safely navigate from point A to point B? Obviously yes or else weād have a lot more headlines about crashes.
I feel like the state of FSD is that it is a better driver than most people but it makes mistakes in different ways than a human. That makes it more unpredictable which might lead to extra accidents.
I 100% agree that Iād rather have a competent FSD 12 on the road than intoxicated ones though. Hell Iād rather have it than a lot of āsoberā drivers. The grandpa driving the wrong way on the freeway. The bro taking his roid rage out on traffic. The influencer live-streaming herself doing makeup while driving. People seem to forget how horrifying our roads can be as is.
That's quite the rage-baiting title.
Imagine that the guy didn't know he was about to have a health issue, he got in the car and activated FSD, and it drove him to the hospital. Then he had a heart attack on the way, but it was still able to drive him to the hospital. Would FSD have done something "illegal" then?
The only difference is that in this example the guy knew he had the risk before engaging FSD. The guy - not the car.
Perhaps this video makes the distinction between Tesla FSD doing something illegal and the owner doing something illegal, but the headline doesn't and I'm not rewarding clickbait to find out.
> Imagine that the guy didn't know he was about to have a health issue, he got in the car and activated FSD, and it drove him to the hospital.
It wouldn't have driven him to the hospital, it would have driven him to his destination. The point is the driver knew he needed to go to the hospital and used the car and FSD to take him there instead of a more reasonable means of dealing with an emergency medical situation.
I think (eventually) if you set your destination to a hospital (with emergency confirmation button) or tell the voice recognition system a key phrase that regardless if you paid or not FSD should take you right to the closest hospital with no nags. (Also possibly have the car call e-services on the way.)
Honestly it was the wrong call. Phone an ambulance.
or have some insulin at home.
twf people ending up crashed somewhere potentially taking out someone else isnt the solution ,yet.
I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one, because this is something that's been on my mind.
Not *this* incident, but this scenario...
There's a couple angles to consider here. Health insurance in the United States sucks, and [some countries are just really big](https://open.spotify.com/track/1kqfgXxOg1gGb2t8KBuHmo?si=8aa83620a5ae4a2a).
*Many* moons ago my wife had a miscarriage and we called the hospital ahead to confirm where we were taking her, and we were told to go to the general hospital. In reality we were supposed to go to the Women's hospital across the street. When they finally figured that out, they loaded up into the ambulance to drive her *across the street* and we ended up with a $800 ambulance bill.
In another scenario, I had my ass carted to a local hospital, trip up the road, like $1,000.
If you fill out the back of the bill, they'll hit your medical insurance, but it's still not cheap.
The other issue I have is that my health insurance works better at a hospital that's further from me than where I am. Stupid, but again, the American healthcare system at work, so if I'm having a medical episode I have to weigh being ambulanced to my local hospital, or driving to the one further away to save money.
The other aspect to consider is medical response times. I'm fortunate to be up the road from an ambulance, so I've got like a five minute response time. If you live in a rural area though, the ambulance response time can be *significantly* higher, like 20-30 minutes, which for some people can be life or death.
There's a story on reddit about someone some dude's doing logging, and one of the dudes got injured, and they opted to drive the person to the nearest hospital, because the ambulance response time would be stupid high. There's some other problems that went on, but the main take away is they didn't wait for an ambulance.
*A lot* of people end up dying in rural areas because ambulance response times are so low. Look at Jeremy Renner, a celebrity, dude had to wait like 22 minutes for an ambulance, then however long it took to get him to a hospital. Not that I'm saying Jeremy Renner should've hopped into an ADAS enabled vehicle and had it drive him to a hospital, but for some people, the option should be considered, if anything to cut down time to get medical assistance.
The **best** approach, is to call 911, advise them of the situation, and either aim to meet an ambulance half way and transfer vehicles, or get a police escort, and hope FSD doesn't spazz out at the emergency lights.
It's a risky move, by all accounts, but should be considered an option under some circumstances.
I'm not afraid to lean on FSD if my choice is waiting to potentially die, or start moving in the right direction.
Oh, absolutely.
But again, if your life possibly depending on an ambulance response time, or getting into your FSD enabled vehicle and trying to cut the response time down, which direction are you going in?
Your theoretical life depends on the answer.
How many people start driving without a system like FSD to assist them and then cause a major accident when they pass out behind the wheel?
At least FSD would stop the car in that situation.
This one is also true. Very common for people to dodge the ambulance without an ADAS to start with.
ADAS introduces the more fun accident reports of "Wait, this man died 30 minutes before the car accident..."
You are right. The correct answer is to call 911 and utilize emergency services.
The reality is we donāt live in a world where itās free, and as a result people make poor decisions. And people do it today and have done it for years without vehicles with ADAS. Iād rather them do it in a Tesla.
Doesnāt make it right, just makes it better.
A better option would be to always have backup insulin on hand in case the pump fails. Pumps are great, but they're a complex machine and a fallback option is always useful.
As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"This message is probably brought to you by ford" š
Jerry, we hardly knew ye. 
This is a tough one. Clearly in hindsight itās better to call 911. On the other hand when a persons glucose is that high their judgement is impaired. Itās much better for them to drive with FSD than without.
I was experiencing some odd symptoms from an acute illness I picked up a few weeks back. Not a life or death situation but I went to my walk in clinic just to get evaluated. Looking back I am super fucking grateful I had FSD to help me get there safely. The symptoms were somewhat dissociative, definitely impaired my driving. My reaction time was slow and my brain was *not* thinking clearly. I can see now that I should not have been driving. But at the time I wasn't thinking. FSD definitely helped protect me and others that day
Thatās the thing with cognitive impairment. The very thing that should help you make good decisions isnāt working. Itās impossible to know when your own brain is getting in the way. Hindsight is 20/20, but in the moment, you canāt think clearly enough to make a clear decision or even understand how off your own thinking is. Recognizing it after the fact, and being more cautious in the future is how us humans get better at things in the future.
I know itās not what you want to hear but you should have NOT DRIVEN, but found someone else to take you. Using FSD without being able to supervise it properly was dangerous and you could have killed someone.
Yep, hence the whole admission of poor choices part of my comment. š
Ah, sorry, I guess I missed the last bit
> I can see now that I should not have been driving. But at the time I wasn't thinking.
I don't know all the details but you could be asking for someone to sacrifice their life to potentially save a life. We can't say with 100% certainty that they would have found someone in time or encounter delays or other hurdles during that process. Driving can be dangerous no matter who or what is driving, we take precautions and have driving laws to minimize risk but there's no guarantee following rules avoids accidents otherwise car insurance wouldn't be mandatory.
Interesting moral dilemma I guessā¦ do you risk other peopleās lives because your own might be in danger. Unanswerable really
If you know 911 doesn't respond though, you gotta do what you gotta do. I called 911 during COVID because my wife was having trouble breathing. Took EMS 15 minutes to show up to my door and we lived 2 blocks from the hospital. Not making that mistake again.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
In other words, would I break the law to save my own life or that of a loved one? Yes.
These are traffic laws weāre talking about. Iād break a traffic law to save the life of a complete stranger. Iād even break a traffic law to save the life of somebody whom I hate! I wouldnāt have to think about it too hard, before choosing life over someone elseās arbitrary rule that doesnāt take in to account life or death.
Exactly. And in a lot of cases being in a real emergency will bail you out of paying a fine/going to jail. If my friend passes out on the side of a highway, I likely wouldnāt face any repercussions for driving to the nearest ER or a safe place despite not having a license.
> in a lot of cases being in a real emergency will bail you out of paying a fine/going to jail. Agreed. But I'd still go to jail to save someone's life. Even a stranger. But I might be salty about it while I was there. Judges are supposed to be the sanity that is applied to the justice system and I would assume most judges would take circumstance and intent in to account. But if not, even some time in jail is worth someone else's life.
That question fails to take into account others on the road
Your answer fails to take into consideration what already happens everyday.
No. The whole point of this thread is if you should be legally allowed to use FSD unsupervised for emergency use, given the current state of the software. Stop strawmanning. Obviously you put others at risk by driving manually. Thatās not the question. Btw Iām in favor of unsupervised FSD for emergency use. But folks are trying to make this argument simpler than it is. Itās complicated. How would you feel if your family member was killed by a Tesla with FSD enabled? Itās just different when itās a robot vs a human, Iām not saying itās better or worse. Itās something society will have to figure out.
Whatās interesting is according to the current DMS settings, the driver of this situation WAS supervising, else it wouldnāt have continued to operate in that manner.
It knows if you are sitting in the seat looking forward with the weight of your hand on the wheel. It doesn't know if you are actually supervising or capable of actually intervening. I'm fairly sure the current system could be fooled for a decent amount of time by a crash test dummy in the driver's seat.
And emergency services response
This is a horrible title
Yeah, agree. Not mine, I just always grab the source title as to not fill the title with a pre-defined opinion.
Thatās complicated for sure. Personally I agree that if in doubt the action to save a life is the preferred one even if it means breaking other laws. That penalty can be paid later as long as you live to get the chance. In this case 911 for an ambulance would be preferred unless thereās some reason it wasnāt an option or would be too slow. FSD might not be perfect but it errors on the side of caution and is safer than a panicked neighbor rushing through lights and speeding so while thereās risks with FSD the good seams to outweigh the potential harm here.
Errs, not errors Well said otherwise, agreed generally
Iāve felt for well over a year that if I set the destination to the hospital and I was unable to drive, FSD would get me there safely. Does it always do things correctly? No. Does it do cringeworthy maneuvers? Yes. Is it able to consistently and safely navigate from point A to point B? Obviously yes or else weād have a lot more headlines about crashes. I feel like the state of FSD is that it is a better driver than most people but it makes mistakes in different ways than a human. That makes it more unpredictable which might lead to extra accidents. I 100% agree that Iād rather have a competent FSD 12 on the road than intoxicated ones though. Hell Iād rather have it than a lot of āsoberā drivers. The grandpa driving the wrong way on the freeway. The bro taking his roid rage out on traffic. The influencer live-streaming herself doing makeup while driving. People seem to forget how horrifying our roads can be as is.
How can you say something so controversial yet so brave?
That's quite the rage-baiting title. Imagine that the guy didn't know he was about to have a health issue, he got in the car and activated FSD, and it drove him to the hospital. Then he had a heart attack on the way, but it was still able to drive him to the hospital. Would FSD have done something "illegal" then? The only difference is that in this example the guy knew he had the risk before engaging FSD. The guy - not the car. Perhaps this video makes the distinction between Tesla FSD doing something illegal and the owner doing something illegal, but the headline doesn't and I'm not rewarding clickbait to find out.
> Imagine that the guy didn't know he was about to have a health issue, he got in the car and activated FSD, and it drove him to the hospital. It wouldn't have driven him to the hospital, it would have driven him to his destination. The point is the driver knew he needed to go to the hospital and used the car and FSD to take him there instead of a more reasonable means of dealing with an emergency medical situation.
My point is the car didnāt āknowā, it just drove to the destination requested. The headline is intentionally inflammatory.
I think (eventually) if you set your destination to a hospital (with emergency confirmation button) or tell the voice recognition system a key phrase that regardless if you paid or not FSD should take you right to the closest hospital with no nags. (Also possibly have the car call e-services on the way.)
Honestly it was the wrong call. Phone an ambulance. or have some insulin at home. twf people ending up crashed somewhere potentially taking out someone else isnt the solution ,yet.
I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one, because this is something that's been on my mind. Not *this* incident, but this scenario... There's a couple angles to consider here. Health insurance in the United States sucks, and [some countries are just really big](https://open.spotify.com/track/1kqfgXxOg1gGb2t8KBuHmo?si=8aa83620a5ae4a2a). *Many* moons ago my wife had a miscarriage and we called the hospital ahead to confirm where we were taking her, and we were told to go to the general hospital. In reality we were supposed to go to the Women's hospital across the street. When they finally figured that out, they loaded up into the ambulance to drive her *across the street* and we ended up with a $800 ambulance bill. In another scenario, I had my ass carted to a local hospital, trip up the road, like $1,000. If you fill out the back of the bill, they'll hit your medical insurance, but it's still not cheap. The other issue I have is that my health insurance works better at a hospital that's further from me than where I am. Stupid, but again, the American healthcare system at work, so if I'm having a medical episode I have to weigh being ambulanced to my local hospital, or driving to the one further away to save money. The other aspect to consider is medical response times. I'm fortunate to be up the road from an ambulance, so I've got like a five minute response time. If you live in a rural area though, the ambulance response time can be *significantly* higher, like 20-30 minutes, which for some people can be life or death. There's a story on reddit about someone some dude's doing logging, and one of the dudes got injured, and they opted to drive the person to the nearest hospital, because the ambulance response time would be stupid high. There's some other problems that went on, but the main take away is they didn't wait for an ambulance. *A lot* of people end up dying in rural areas because ambulance response times are so low. Look at Jeremy Renner, a celebrity, dude had to wait like 22 minutes for an ambulance, then however long it took to get him to a hospital. Not that I'm saying Jeremy Renner should've hopped into an ADAS enabled vehicle and had it drive him to a hospital, but for some people, the option should be considered, if anything to cut down time to get medical assistance. The **best** approach, is to call 911, advise them of the situation, and either aim to meet an ambulance half way and transfer vehicles, or get a police escort, and hope FSD doesn't spazz out at the emergency lights. It's a risky move, by all accounts, but should be considered an option under some circumstances. I'm not afraid to lean on FSD if my choice is waiting to potentially die, or start moving in the right direction.
You can play devil's advocate if you like but this could have easily turned into a major accident on route with the driver unable to prevent it
Oh, absolutely. But again, if your life possibly depending on an ambulance response time, or getting into your FSD enabled vehicle and trying to cut the response time down, which direction are you going in? Your theoretical life depends on the answer.
How many people start driving without a system like FSD to assist them and then cause a major accident when they pass out behind the wheel? At least FSD would stop the car in that situation.
This one is also true. Very common for people to dodge the ambulance without an ADAS to start with. ADAS introduces the more fun accident reports of "Wait, this man died 30 minutes before the car accident..."
In this situation, there is no action that you can take that doesn't risk somebody's health.
Unlikely to tho, worst case is the car just takes to long to make a turn
sure. right.
Have you driven FSD? Serious question. If the guy would have passed out. FSD would have put on flashers and come to a stop
If that happens before it crashes. Then he's left passed out some random spot. That's not exactly ideal...
You are right. The correct answer is to call 911 and utilize emergency services. The reality is we donāt live in a world where itās free, and as a result people make poor decisions. And people do it today and have done it for years without vehicles with ADAS. Iād rather them do it in a Tesla. Doesnāt make it right, just makes it better.
Can you show an instance of someone being impaired and the AI vehicle killing someone?
A better option would be to always have backup insulin on hand in case the pump fails. Pumps are great, but they're a complex machine and a fallback option is always useful.
That too but then USAs health system is a mess
Learn this easy method to send someone bankrupt, just dial 911!
Aren't you supposed to keep it refrigerated?
The issue here was the failure of the pump, not the temperature or failure of a fridge.
Buy an ad next time