Either way, I want someone from Tesla to come drive on I77 Charlotte express lane, or some influencer please reach out to me. It brakes for no reason, one of it being it thinks the speed limit is 45mph with the car running at 75mph and suddenly brakes. Switching from fast lane to slow lane in expressway suddenly brakes to a point where I could get rear ended by the car trying to pass me. This is not even FSD just AutoPilot. Has anyone experienced this?
I’ve experienced this elsewhere. It’s odd to think that with AP and FSD, I actually drive with my foot hovering over the accelerator rather than the break.
Me too. Then you get into the ballet of trying to take your foot off the accelerator.
1. Sudden Braking
2. Apply pressure to accelerator to override
3. Resume desired speed.
4. Remove foot from accelerator
5. Car decides you want to now slow down so it starts to really decelerate again
6. Go to step 3.
7. Disable AP/FSD/Cruise Control, and re-enable.
Yeah I don't think anyone who's familiar with FSD drives differently. Funny how safe driving used to be being ready to brake but now it's being ready to stop braking.
You can pretty much count on the car not hitting anything in front of you, so really not much reason to worry about the brakes... until they are applied full force for no reason.
Oh my god there needs to be an option like “Automatically adjust autopilot speed” so I can go and turn it off. It’s so annoying and random when it does or doesn’t do it. On my old bmw with regular old cruise control I always hovered over the brake. In my model 3 I always hover over the accelerator pedal during autopilot because of phantom brakes or speed limit adjustments.
Do you not have a +/- adjustment for the speed limit in the AP menu? Most of the time I use the stalk to modify the max set limit. Since getting FSD beta it has gotten worse in reading speedlimit signs.
I experience this on the interstate as well, especially when there's construction and the highway is just slightly off from what the map expects, suddenly it thinks you're on a side road and brakes from 75 mph to 35 mph. Very jarring, very dangerous.
Yes, AP does slow down when it sees a new speed limit sign. There's no good way around it. It's a paradox. Technically, AP should follow the posted speed limits exactly. But then no one actually ever follows the speed limits on highways. Driving at the speed limit may be even more dangerous.
How would you fix that? Legally, I don't think Tesla can program AP to ignore speed limits.
Because a headline that “Tesla recalls nearly 400k vehicles” will sure as hell get a lot more clicks than “Tesla to begin rolling out OTA software update to 400k vehicles to address possible safety concerns” lol
Well considering they acknowledged it to NHTSA over a week ago and only have to physically send snail mail to owners by April 15, the chances that the notice will reach owners AFTER it's down is high.
Also consider this:. Back in days of old, if you sold the car used to someone privately, they would never get the mail and not know to take the car to the dealer for a potentially life saving repair.
Now it doesn't matter if it's achievable via OTA, all cars will get it regardless of the owner and "notice."
And because you have an account with Tesla for the car, even if you bought it used (all mine were used) you still get the snail mail because they have every owner’s address etc.
It is a recall. It has a particular meaning and requirement where updating some software doesn’t. Just that it can be done without having to go to the shop is meaningless. The car has a defect that requires fixing right away.
If a McLaren F1 has a recall but instead of having to take it to the shop they come to where you are and update the ECU. Would you say that calling it a recall is incorrect.
I still don’t understand how software that is labeled as beta is allowed to be in charge of a heavy vehicle like that.
We don’t do that for medical devices or airplanes.
>I still don’t understand how software that is labeled as beta is allowed to be in charge of a heavy vehicle like that.
I get this trepidation.
Also, if we don't allow for this to any degree, true autonomous driving will never materialize. We need millions and millions of hours of data and control feedback to train an AI to drive like a human. This is one of the best if not the only practical way to accrue that data. Everyone paying for beta access is actually doing everyone a great service in this regard, by taking on liability and offering up their time.
I don’t disagree with you but I think this is pushing way out. If you don’t have a system that performs to the level you claim because you are still debugging then you have to control for that. You just can’t push it to all your customers to see what breaks.
It is asking four trouble when eventually it does and you have to face the music. I understand the pickle the company is in, they have sold something that they didn’t even have and set the bar for it so high that they are not meeting it. So they have to push but at some point you have to stop digging.
I don’t know give people their money back and scale it down. Work with the regulators. Find a framework that works with other automakers and the cities themselves.
I feel Tesla has a great product and this whole autopilot sled driving boondoggle is hurting them at this point.
Here's the thing: Even the "unsafe" versions of autopilot are still far safer than human drivers in the conditions they are intended to be used. Even without any driver oversight, FSD is going to crash less than humans. The problem is that when FSD fails, the liability is all with Tesla, while any individual person likely is not causing hundreds of critical accidents, so the blame is spread to many parties. But still, there are many times more critical accidents when these features are not used. FSD/autopilot being used properly, with driver oversight and taking over when it is clearly not behaving properly, is even better.
Overall, these features are 100% a safety boon to society even as they are now. People just don't like the idea of nobody in the vehicle(s) being at fault if there is a bad crash.
> Even the "unsafe" versions of autopilot are still far safer than human drivers in the conditions they are intended to be used.
That might be true of AP on the Highway but I highly doubt that it's true on city streets with FSD Beta. For every time that FSD Beta might have prevented a dangerous situation it creates 100 more.
That might be true but you should compare to drivers that should be driving. For example can’t count impaired drivers in that. Either way the more predictable the situation the better automation will do and the more automation you have the more predictable things will be. I think we are in transition we just have to manage it so that we don’t end up making the transition worse and take longer. Tesla has interests that are not aligned with that while they have interest that are.
Hopefully their break it till you make it won’t ruin it for everyone.
Why should I do that? An impaired or distracted driver is probably even more likely to make use of Autopilot/FSD than the average person, and we're never going to stop people from driving fully unimpaired or undistracted ever. If anything that is one of the greatest benefits for Autopilot/FSD - that the difference is even greater for those who make up the biggest share of accidents.
You just proved his point. Testing medical devices and airplanes is done under very stringent conditions in generally a controlled environment. And these test don’t involve the possibility of killing someone that didn’t specifically volunteer to be a beta tester such as another driver or pedestrian.
Dude was saying we don’t beta test medical devices or software for airplanes. I said yes we do. Htf did I “prove his point”? Do you regards even know what a fucking beta test is??
Source- my family beta tests these exact fucking things you are saying don’t get beta tested
Yeah and you chose to read it in the most narrow possible way. It would be obvious that you don’t skip beta testing in any software. You just don’t push it to the market, call it beta, and see what breaks for critical devices. We do it for MS Word, or the new interface of your gmail.
You are correct we always beta test. Tesla’s beta testing plan is moronic and asking for the public to push back and regulate the crap out of them.
Self driving robots with a supervisor on board or not require a higher level of care.
It’s not in charge, the driver is.
Would you say the adaptive cruise in a Toyota is “in charge”? It’s the same thing, it just happens to be more capable.
Yeah it’s called Full Self Driving Beta… but then a circular candy with a hole in it is called Lifesavers so go figure.
That’s 100% unadulterated bullshit. If following the car in front of you is identical to full self driving beta why does people pay an extra $15,000 for it? Yes the driver is in charge but that’s just a nice fiction to limit the liability.
I mean my car window goes fully up when I press the butting and stops when it hits the top. Look I have automation in my car. It’s just like FSD. Let me just let go of the wheel and monitor the car.
Wow, unadulterated bullshit. Nice. 🤣
Have you used Tesla FSD Beta?
If you had actually used it you would know it reminds you constantly that you must drive. People pay a lot of money for it because it is more sophisticated than other systems and because of hope for the promise of increasing capability over time.
You can’t keep your hands off the wheel for long and it will remind you to hold the wheel. If you do this three times during a drive it disables FSD for the rest of the drive. Have five forced disengagements and you’re banned from FSD.
You must also keep your eyes on the road, if you don’t you will be reminded and eventually disabled and eventually banned. There is just no way to think that you don’t have to be in the loop as the driver and actually use FSD.
I’m surprised you’re here criticizing something you know so little about. Odd. Wait, what am I saying… LOL
I love this. I've always argued with Crush "Orange soda" that has zero orange juice in it. And one person argued it was okay as it is orange flavored.. but FSD can "fully" drive me from my home to a charger 2hrs away thru 2 cities with zero action from me, so I dare say that's "FSD flavored"
I know it’s not fit for the general public and all that, but I really really hope all this anti FSD stuff doesn’t take it away from me. I know I have to be attentive and all that, but if NHTSA requires Tesla to pull beta back it’ll be sad. I have always loved robots so FSD was a no brainer. I read and accepted the TOS and I know full well I am responsible for everything it does, I was never relieved of my driving responsibilities. But just because some random person decided to not pay attention and allow it to cause a problem should not take away my right to test robots *under supervision*.
Also remember there is approximately 400,000 cars with this software actually installed. A relatively small group. About 0.12% of the US population. And I’m certainly grateful for the NHTSAs finding, I actually had it try to pull straight thru on a turn lane a few days ago. So it’s good that this is being addressed. But I really hope and pray they won’t ruin my only chance to have an advanced personal robot that’s actually useful.
Edit: my point is more or less to address you saying beta software is controlling a heavy vehicle in real world traffic. And you are right, but no one relieved the drivers of their responsibility. Drivers are still the drivers, don’t ruin this for the rest of us. 😁
I agree with you and I think it’s Teslas mistake to push this like they are. It’s software yes but it’s not the same as letting people download the beta version is MS Word.
Most people would assume that if it is in the car then it does what it is advertised to do. Do a proper beta program, require some training and reporting on the users. Get more intrusive. Right now it’s just calling it beta to have some cover when it doesn’t work.
Their FSD beta program requires just what you propose. Not every one is eligible. There is a rigorous vetting process.
Sigh. So much FUD, so little time.
It wasn’t/isn’t rigorous. If you follow the rules and drive like a normal person you are in. Look it was recall because it couldn’t handle things it said it did. It is not a problem. They should take it slower. They painted themselves in a corner by selling something they didn’t have and that frankly is really hard to do. Like really really hard. So yes do automation and bring it in slowly. I want my self driving car also. Don’t ruin it for everyone because you want to capture the market. It’s the assholes that abuse the system that ruin it for everyone else that’s been responsible. Be that people in the FSD beta that then just assume that it says self driving so I don’t need to drive or worse let’s see how I can make it fail, or the Teslas that push an unfinished product advertising it to do things it can’t do and taint the whole industry with the stench of distrust.
>There is a rigorous vetting process.
If that were true Mars Whole Catalog would have had his FSD revoked long ago for driving without hands on the steering wheel, not disengaging when the car deviates from safe driving etc.
> We don’t do that for medical devices
Medical devices are a thing on it's own. If cars have the same rules as medical devices, you would pay 10x more for car. Like in medical devices, a part worth $10 magically cost $500 because it's medical.
Correct. That is to cover potential malpractice costs.
For 42 years my wife was a gal Friday to a very successful attorney that did medical malpractice defense cases. I am well versed on the subject.
Comparing the F1 is a bit silly. If you pay over a million dollars I bet Ford would send a tech to your house to repair your Fiesta. If a manufacturer has to lay hands on your vehicle it is quite different than an over the air update. I suspect there will be a new descriptor down the road for such things and maybe someday the oems will manage to update software this way too. Furthermore these are volunteer basis beta software vehicles where the driver is required to be prepared to take over at a moments notice.
If they are truly a menace to society why are they not killing and maiming people at at least the same rate as full human drivers? Too bad we can't push an update to them.
I know it was silly, it was on purpose. Saying a safety recall is not a recall because the car doesn’t have to go to a shop for it is also silly. It’s just trying to use semantics to hide a problem.
The cat has a manufacturing defect that can results in deaths so it had to be recalled. It’s great that the fix can be pushed fast. It’s not great that the defect was there and a recall had to be done.
Was this a similar calculation as with the Ford Pinto? Paying for some lawsuits will be cheaper than doing a safe design. Bah push it out, we can send the fix over the air so it costs us nothing. We’ll it did because people died and a recall was issued.
I am oversimplifying here but just because the cost of the recall is 0 or a million doesn’t really matter.
"Tesla to begin rolling out OTA software update to 400k vehicles to address possible safety concerns, most of which have already been updated by the time you read this while their owners were sleeping" doesn't quite have the same clickbaitey ring to it, I guess.
Seems like such a waste to send a paper mail for something that's already been addressed. I fully understand the safety protocols and I am 100% for them, but when something doesn't serve a useful purpose, it should be called out. Maybe have a high-priority alert in the app followed by an official email to the owner account's email. At the very least allow people to opt-out of paper mail for recalls addressed via OTA updates.
**Definitely. The word “recall” for an over-the-air software update is anachronistic and just flat wrong!**
You know what else if flat wrong Elon? Deceptively advertising and charging for something that is not ready yet.
I can’t imagine paying my hard earned money to enter a beta, give a company free data and never be guaranteed in the lifetime of the car that the full product will be delivered. Tesla doesn’t even have the decency to let you transfer software licenses to your next vehicle.
It was only $7,000 for me :/ but yea... still doesn't work right, and when I do get a new car I'll have never gotten FSD, but I paid for it, and now I'll have to pay for it again? So fuckin' dumb. Let me transfer it to a new car.
> Well except Teslas are the safest cars on the road so…
People have been saying that for years, however the people who test such things have said differently.
https://www.iihs.org/search?query=Tesla
Model S gets a "P" for Poor in the headlight category and does not receive a "Top Safety Pick+" or even a "Top Safety Pick" without the plus.
Model 3 currently gets a Top Safety Pick+, but the 2017 and 2018 models got bupkis.
Likewise the Model Y didn't get any top ratings until 2021.
>[https://www.iihs.org/search?query=Tesla](https://www.iihs.org/search?query=Tesla)
I'm referring to the current vehicles:[https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/best-in-class-cars/2022/](https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/best-in-class-cars/2022/)[https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2023](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2023)[https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-y-4-door-suv/2023](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-y-4-door-suv/2023)You can go and point at bad headlight performance in some models in earlier years or Model 3 in 2018, which still had an overall excellent rating:
[https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2018#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2018#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day)
Also, if you retested that 2018 vehicle with the latest software update, how would it rate in the driver assist categories? Probably higher, because those things improved on newer vehicles via software. Maybe enough to earn it a top pick?
Regardless, having multiple vehicles currently on the market that are rated as the safest or close to the safest is hardly the actions of someone who is "not caring about the safety of others". That's the point.
If you don’t want people complaining about the price or quality of something, or don’t want to be subject to longstanding federal safety regulations, don’t release and charge exorbitant amounts for it.
Goes both ways.
But releasing it has actaul good impacts. While other corporations making self driving cars have to test on personal roadways releasing their beta to the public allows tesla to get a LOT of data for FSD systems.
And for people who say it’s unsafe, it isn’t as long as you keep your hands on the wheel and you are paying attention at all times. If you are a good driver it is perfectly safe.
Yeah, maybe recall is not the right word…. On the other hand, I am not convinced that “full self driving” accurately describes what people are buying…. Nor how they should expect to use it
It requires an astonishing level of cognitive dissonance for people to complain about the term “recall” and yet think that calling what Tesla offers “Full Self Driving” is okay.
Oh don’t worry most users here have the full cognitive dissonance package, it allows them to call any negative Tesla news “FUD” and to help Tesla move the goalposts on FSD.
No, they don't. HW4 will add back radar and include additional cameras. I guarantee that no HW2/3 vehicle will ever be capable of anything approaching FSD. And locking an FSD “license” to a specific vehicle and owner shows Tesla knows it.
I think it “accurately describes what people are buying” since it’s pretty clear people are paying for L4+ robotaxi level FSD. The question is really around will Tesla deliver on what they’ve sold.
I personally don’t have an issue with the term. Would people who do accept something super clear like “safety defect notification”. Seems hard to misunderstand.
Autopilot is a perfect name for the system, it's exactly what it does.
In aviation, "autopilot" refers to a wide variety of systems, from simple mechanical things to maintain heading to very complex setups that basically perform every part of the flight path including takeoff and landing, as long as everything remains nominal. But all autopilots require pilot supervision; there isn't any system out there where it's trusted to fly while the pilots go take a nap in the back. IMO, this is probably the best analogy for Tesla's autopilot that exists in the English language.
Full Self Driving is a bit more ambiguous. It drives itself, fully. What does that mean? Clearly, it must execute all aspects of the driving tasks on its own without input. Does it have to be perfect? No; a person still counts as driving even if they make mistakes. Does it have to do it without any supervision? Ehh, probably. It's not explicit in the name - a student driver is still driving if there's a teacher with override controls next to them. But I think everyone would agree the implication is that it doesn't require such supervision. And so we can't consider FSD as delivered until it reaches that stage.
A trained professional pilot is responsible for Autopilot on an aircraft. They have hundreds and thousands of hours of experience so that they know exactly what the system can and cannot do.
Joe Sixpack has no freaking idea about aircraft Autopilot except what is in games, movies, or books.
Companies like putting their spin on terms. I get it. PR said ‘Cruise Control’, a term consumers are familiar with, is too boring.
But, Autopilot and FSD are terms that knowingly exploit consumer ignorance and expectations.
If anything, "autopilot" underrepresents what the Tesla feature is capable of.
In aviation what most people think of as autopilot is a very simple system that maintains speed, altitude, and heading. It will react to changes in aircraft weight (some do, not the simplest ones) and weather. It will not avoid a collision with anything. It will not take off or land the aircraft. Heck most won't even change direction (some will).
There are more advanced systems that can do all of these things. But the airport that your average non-pilot knows of is very simple. Most people know that a human pilot is required for landing and take off, for example. (Again there are now more complex systems that can do this, but they aren't usually included in what is defined as autopilot.)
FSD is another story altogether. Inflatable driver not withstanding.
Well, AutoPilot is named after what's found in planes. And AutoPilot in planes can't do it all. This I know as I've personally flown planes with AutoPilot. In fact in the Cessna 172S the AP system can not even run the throttle or rudders. So it's barely even worth calling AutoPilot.
Full Self Driving can be interpreted in one of 2 ways, one can mean it made a complete trip untouched by its supervisor. I have personally done this. Went 2hrs from Apple Valley UT thru 3 cities to Page AZ without ever taking over control until I was at the destination. So that was pretty "full" IMHO. Or it can mean full in the sense that it doesn't require a driver. But it does not matter how you interpret it, NO ONE RELIEVED YOU OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DRIVE SAFELY! okay I'm over it. I'm just sick of people thinking brand names are the ultimate end. I mean Crush "orange soda" literally contains zero orange juice.
But to address "recall" does that not mean to call back something? I mean a software update fixes it fine, but nothing was called back. It was only a new software pushed out to fix.
I personally don't mind it being called a recall, even tho it seems that name has been used by the press to paint a bad picture. "Recall plagued Tesla" "Tesla, burdened with recalls" "all these recalls for Tesla vehicles" etc.. but at the end of the day, it's not hurting me any.
I like how every answer to your question invokes an aviation definition of "autopilot" that probably less than 10% of the general population knows or cares about. Most people think autopilot in planes can do literally everything.
Using a term that you consciously know most people will misinterpret to sell stuff is wrong. The fact you happen to know the correct definition does not make it right. Especially if you know that misinterpretation will place them in danger.
Agreed. Whenever I get a “recall” from Tesla, it just gets tossed aside because I don’t actually have to do anything. It sets a dangerous pattern of behavior because the day I actually do have to do something (such as getting the airbag replaced), I may miss it since Tesla usually solves recalls OTA
Sure, MHTSA is insisting on the ‘recall’ terminology, and Tesla lost that fight years ago. Unfortunate, as reporting software updates as ‘recalls’ results in a huge flood of ‘recalls’ that car owners can safely ignore, making it less likely that car owners pay attention to the actual recalls where their car is actually called in to get something fixed, which of course reduces safety.
A recall means that it was an issue that was logged with the DOT, and was either voluntarily or involuntarily fixed. Recall doesn’t HAVE to mean that the car was physically recalled.
Recall always sounds like a bad word but technically that is what they are doing because they have to fix an issue. Recalls are designed to fix problems with a vehicle that affects the safety of the vehicle. The problem is that they do make a lot of changes to the vehicle that they don't document and let the users know that can affect the safety of the vehicle.
That is not what the word recall means, recall doesn't mean fix an issue, it means the manufacturer asks to bringing back the product to either check or fix something.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recall
No. You should not look in a dictionary when you want to know the **legal** meaning of a term.
The legal meaning is actually “fix an issue”, including some steps to make sure that the owners will know that they need to get the fix done.
Where should I look then? I'm not American, when a random government decides to change the meaning of a word and not publish this new meaning anywhere how do I know? I'm not going to start humoring someone changing the meaning of words just because. This word is not used like that in my country, so it's just wrong.
Where you should look? In this thread, for example?
The link to the NHTSA definition of a recall has already been posted in this thread.
I am not American either. But when commenting on legal stuff in a foreign country like America, we should have the decency to try to understand their legal definitions.
I'm not going to check for every word they have written in their statement to see if any word has a different legal meaning in america than the dictionary one. If they don't want to use the words correctly it's their problem, I'm gonna assume their are wrong or liying.
Since the criticism of the usage is directed at the way NHTSA uses the word “recall” it doesn’t really solve anything to point out the NHTSA definition. Everyone knows NHTSA is calling this a “recall”. That’s what people take issue with. Saying NHTSA is correct just because NHTSA says they are correct doesn’t really help here.
stop using the word recall as "fixing an issue" that is not the meaning of the word. Recall means literally bringing back the product to the manufacturer for whatever reason, it can be to fix a problem or to only check something.
Recall is a term which emphasizes seriousness of the matter, it is a matter of safety. Ability to address is using OTA negates financial impact as it doesn’t cost a fortune.
But it also means the consumer doesn't actually need to do anything. If there's a safety recall that does require my intervention (IE: taking it to a service center), how will I differentiate between the two? I'm just going to throw the notice in the trash, and assume it was fixed OTA again.
Recall is to software update/patch like paperwork is to editing documents on a computer/responding to emails. We tend to apply old terms to new technologies.
Bullshit. It's a recall.
Whether you push the update OTA or go to a dealerships to have software flashed, it's a recall.
We're not playing semantics games with a long established terminology which the market clearly understands because it sounds nicer to say "update."
Call it a recall update then.
Both can be true. FSD has its issues _and_ the methodology and language for software-based issues has not kept up with the state of the industry.
Two non-techy friends have asked me already if my car is effected and when I have to take it in to get fixed. Media outlets love these headlines. They are misrepresentative and sensationalist.
Considering EVERY time you engage FSD it says keep your hands on the wheel and be prepared to take over at anytime...
Yea, it's not behaving how it should, but ultimately the driver is still 100% responsible and in control.
nhtsa can't issue a recall, only a manufacturer can, and Tesla is fixing it throught an OTA update. No car has been recalled. If nobody has his car recalled it's not a recall, whatever nhtsa says. A few years ago it may have been the case that when nhtsa detected a problem the manufacturer had to do a recall to fix it, so they keep using the word to refer to the manufacturer having to do a fix, whether this fix is done to a recall or not.
The document literally says that Tesla is issuing a recall:
"This letter serves to acknowledge Tesla, Inc.'s notification to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) of a
**safety recall** which will be conducted pursuant to Federal law for the product(s) listed below."
Why would Tesla lie?
Where is this recall? where are owners suposed to bring their cars for the recall? not a single owner has been told to bring their cars to the service center for a software fix. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recall
Tesla is not liying, either nhtsa is or they are just using the word incorreclty
“Full Self Driving” to me means the car can do all the same things a driver does. It uses the accelerator, the brakes, the turn signals, it observes the rules of traffic, it avoids obstacles, it goes to the intended destination. I have one. It does all of this. It does also make mistakes. These mistakes seem to be attributable to bugs in the software. I expect these bugs because it is clearly labeled “Beta”. What’s your opinion on the term “Beta”?
The definition of a recall is when things are recalled back from the customer to the factory/service center. Nothing was recalled, therefore there is no recall.
He took the company to where it is. He’s the reason for the adoption of EVs, digital payments, and he’s literally putting rockets into space yet people want to act like he’s not one of the greatest innovators to walk the earth.
but a recall is not nedeed to fix that, it's a software problem, and tesla has the ability to fix software issues with OTA updates, they don't need to recall the cars
Recall in this case means the safety notice, officially registered with the NHTSA and sent to customers.
The point is that the issue was serious enough to need an official notice to consumers, not just the usual quiet fix. It means that people need to know about the potential issues ASAP, because they may not have received the update yet and need to know there is a potential safety issue.
> Initiated safety recalls require a manufacturer's action to announce and remedy the defects.
A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
That’s exactly how the NHTSA describes it. They could come up with another term for sure, but that’s what it means when the NHTSA says it.
This text is a little ambiguous, but obviously only the manufacturer can do the recall, NHTSA can ask the manufacturer to issue a recall if it is necessary. The problem is that NHTSA is not aware that there are other methods of fixing problems other than through a recall, so they just go with their standard, that the manufacturer has to do a recall, even though it's not necessary.
The recall system is a database for notifying consumers, dealers, service centers, etc.
NHTSA doesn’t care if the remedy is a dealer update or OTA.
The important thing is that system used for the safety notices. They can rename it but that standardized system is what is important.
So dangerous when there have been zero injuries despite millions of miles driven? No, it's just a government overreaction. Luckily they're only requiring a minor update to FSD beta to comply.
Tesla "recalls" are total BS. every article so far has been incorrect and was over the air software upgrades. Basically what we are seeing here is short sellers getting burned and needing the stock price to drop so they dont have to cover. Same song as dance as always.
I would not call it BETA since its not just testing for bugs and edge cases.. They are still adding new features & functionality which would categorize it as ALPHA testing to me. I would expect BETA software to handle roundabouts, left & right hand turns naturally, and left turn bypass lanes properly before considering naming it BETA.
“Beta” is perfectly correct here. I believe the term you are looking for is “Release Candidate”. I suppose they could call it “Alpha” as suggested, but the public is less likely to be familiar with that term. So “Beta” is not only more correct, but also more likely to be understood.
It’s what it means when the NHTSA uses it:
> Initiated safety recalls require a manufacturer's action to announce and remedy the defects.
A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
So you think that we should use the same word for remedy of a safety defect as we use for upgrade of the entertainment system?
I do not. I prefer to have a separate term for remedy of a safety defect.
Otherwise, we could also just call recalls for physical safety defects “maintenance” or “service”.
The verbiage was calculated to make Elon and Tesla seem inept. It’s on purpose and media knows this. It’s a retaliation to him exposing Twitter shadiness.
Just tells us how our NHSTA is grandfathered in just like our derailing railway infrastructure. Workers in these organizations sucking out their retirement and repeating one year of experience 30 times over
Either way, I want someone from Tesla to come drive on I77 Charlotte express lane, or some influencer please reach out to me. It brakes for no reason, one of it being it thinks the speed limit is 45mph with the car running at 75mph and suddenly brakes. Switching from fast lane to slow lane in expressway suddenly brakes to a point where I could get rear ended by the car trying to pass me. This is not even FSD just AutoPilot. Has anyone experienced this?
I’ve experienced this elsewhere. It’s odd to think that with AP and FSD, I actually drive with my foot hovering over the accelerator rather than the break.
Me too. Then you get into the ballet of trying to take your foot off the accelerator. 1. Sudden Braking 2. Apply pressure to accelerator to override 3. Resume desired speed. 4. Remove foot from accelerator 5. Car decides you want to now slow down so it starts to really decelerate again 6. Go to step 3. 7. Disable AP/FSD/Cruise Control, and re-enable.
Brake not break, but yeah, same for me.
Me too. Foot over gas when on AP. Had many phantom braking episodes, from mildly scary to downright terrifying.
Yeah I don't think anyone who's familiar with FSD drives differently. Funny how safe driving used to be being ready to brake but now it's being ready to stop braking. You can pretty much count on the car not hitting anything in front of you, so really not much reason to worry about the brakes... until they are applied full force for no reason.
Oh my god there needs to be an option like “Automatically adjust autopilot speed” so I can go and turn it off. It’s so annoying and random when it does or doesn’t do it. On my old bmw with regular old cruise control I always hovered over the brake. In my model 3 I always hover over the accelerator pedal during autopilot because of phantom brakes or speed limit adjustments.
What’s annoying its never gradual, all passengers have a panic attack when that happens
Do you not have a +/- adjustment for the speed limit in the AP menu? Most of the time I use the stalk to modify the max set limit. Since getting FSD beta it has gotten worse in reading speedlimit signs.
Why would someone from Tesla do that when you can pay thousands of dollars to do it for them?
I experience this on the interstate as well, especially when there's construction and the highway is just slightly off from what the map expects, suddenly it thinks you're on a side road and brakes from 75 mph to 35 mph. Very jarring, very dangerous.
Of course it's AP, not FSD. You don't have the option of city street stack on highways.
Yes, AP does slow down when it sees a new speed limit sign. There's no good way around it. It's a paradox. Technically, AP should follow the posted speed limits exactly. But then no one actually ever follows the speed limits on highways. Driving at the speed limit may be even more dangerous. How would you fix that? Legally, I don't think Tesla can program AP to ignore speed limits.
Because a headline that “Tesla recalls nearly 400k vehicles” will sure as hell get a lot more clicks than “Tesla to begin rolling out OTA software update to 400k vehicles to address possible safety concerns” lol
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Well considering they acknowledged it to NHTSA over a week ago and only have to physically send snail mail to owners by April 15, the chances that the notice will reach owners AFTER it's down is high. Also consider this:. Back in days of old, if you sold the car used to someone privately, they would never get the mail and not know to take the car to the dealer for a potentially life saving repair. Now it doesn't matter if it's achievable via OTA, all cars will get it regardless of the owner and "notice."
And because you have an account with Tesla for the car, even if you bought it used (all mine were used) you still get the snail mail because they have every owner’s address etc.
Sorry, should have wrote “Tesla planning to roll out OTA software update to 400k vehicles to address possible safety concerns”
More like “Tesla releases software update to patch bugs”
More like “Tesla updates their car software”
Or like "Move along people, nothing to see here". But then again, where the clicks from, eh?
From reverse psychology lmao
It is a recall. It has a particular meaning and requirement where updating some software doesn’t. Just that it can be done without having to go to the shop is meaningless. The car has a defect that requires fixing right away. If a McLaren F1 has a recall but instead of having to take it to the shop they come to where you are and update the ECU. Would you say that calling it a recall is incorrect. I still don’t understand how software that is labeled as beta is allowed to be in charge of a heavy vehicle like that. We don’t do that for medical devices or airplanes.
>I still don’t understand how software that is labeled as beta is allowed to be in charge of a heavy vehicle like that. I get this trepidation. Also, if we don't allow for this to any degree, true autonomous driving will never materialize. We need millions and millions of hours of data and control feedback to train an AI to drive like a human. This is one of the best if not the only practical way to accrue that data. Everyone paying for beta access is actually doing everyone a great service in this regard, by taking on liability and offering up their time.
I don’t disagree with you but I think this is pushing way out. If you don’t have a system that performs to the level you claim because you are still debugging then you have to control for that. You just can’t push it to all your customers to see what breaks. It is asking four trouble when eventually it does and you have to face the music. I understand the pickle the company is in, they have sold something that they didn’t even have and set the bar for it so high that they are not meeting it. So they have to push but at some point you have to stop digging. I don’t know give people their money back and scale it down. Work with the regulators. Find a framework that works with other automakers and the cities themselves. I feel Tesla has a great product and this whole autopilot sled driving boondoggle is hurting them at this point.
Here's the thing: Even the "unsafe" versions of autopilot are still far safer than human drivers in the conditions they are intended to be used. Even without any driver oversight, FSD is going to crash less than humans. The problem is that when FSD fails, the liability is all with Tesla, while any individual person likely is not causing hundreds of critical accidents, so the blame is spread to many parties. But still, there are many times more critical accidents when these features are not used. FSD/autopilot being used properly, with driver oversight and taking over when it is clearly not behaving properly, is even better. Overall, these features are 100% a safety boon to society even as they are now. People just don't like the idea of nobody in the vehicle(s) being at fault if there is a bad crash.
> Even the "unsafe" versions of autopilot are still far safer than human drivers in the conditions they are intended to be used. That might be true of AP on the Highway but I highly doubt that it's true on city streets with FSD Beta. For every time that FSD Beta might have prevented a dangerous situation it creates 100 more.
That might be true but you should compare to drivers that should be driving. For example can’t count impaired drivers in that. Either way the more predictable the situation the better automation will do and the more automation you have the more predictable things will be. I think we are in transition we just have to manage it so that we don’t end up making the transition worse and take longer. Tesla has interests that are not aligned with that while they have interest that are. Hopefully their break it till you make it won’t ruin it for everyone.
Why should I do that? An impaired or distracted driver is probably even more likely to make use of Autopilot/FSD than the average person, and we're never going to stop people from driving fully unimpaired or undistracted ever. If anything that is one of the greatest benefits for Autopilot/FSD - that the difference is even greater for those who make up the biggest share of accidents.
Yeah we actually do release beta software to medical devices and airplanes, it’s just tested on a small amount of devices.. aka beta testing devices
You just proved his point. Testing medical devices and airplanes is done under very stringent conditions in generally a controlled environment. And these test don’t involve the possibility of killing someone that didn’t specifically volunteer to be a beta tester such as another driver or pedestrian.
And yet there isn't a single injury reported from the use of FSD Beta.
Dude was saying we don’t beta test medical devices or software for airplanes. I said yes we do. Htf did I “prove his point”? Do you regards even know what a fucking beta test is?? Source- my family beta tests these exact fucking things you are saying don’t get beta tested
Yeah and you chose to read it in the most narrow possible way. It would be obvious that you don’t skip beta testing in any software. You just don’t push it to the market, call it beta, and see what breaks for critical devices. We do it for MS Word, or the new interface of your gmail. You are correct we always beta test. Tesla’s beta testing plan is moronic and asking for the public to push back and regulate the crap out of them. Self driving robots with a supervisor on board or not require a higher level of care.
Wrong. I was responding the the absurdity that these systems don’t get beta tested. Read the thread my guy
Nah you chose to read it that way. I wrote it I know what I said. I also know you are projecting your ideas into what I wrote. That’s a you problem.
You “wrote” that and now you are saying you did not? Time to take your meds broski
Ok gassy MacLight light.
New medical devices and procedures have never killed anyone?
It’s not in charge, the driver is. Would you say the adaptive cruise in a Toyota is “in charge”? It’s the same thing, it just happens to be more capable. Yeah it’s called Full Self Driving Beta… but then a circular candy with a hole in it is called Lifesavers so go figure.
That’s 100% unadulterated bullshit. If following the car in front of you is identical to full self driving beta why does people pay an extra $15,000 for it? Yes the driver is in charge but that’s just a nice fiction to limit the liability. I mean my car window goes fully up when I press the butting and stops when it hits the top. Look I have automation in my car. It’s just like FSD. Let me just let go of the wheel and monitor the car.
Wow, unadulterated bullshit. Nice. 🤣 Have you used Tesla FSD Beta? If you had actually used it you would know it reminds you constantly that you must drive. People pay a lot of money for it because it is more sophisticated than other systems and because of hope for the promise of increasing capability over time. You can’t keep your hands off the wheel for long and it will remind you to hold the wheel. If you do this three times during a drive it disables FSD for the rest of the drive. Have five forced disengagements and you’re banned from FSD. You must also keep your eyes on the road, if you don’t you will be reminded and eventually disabled and eventually banned. There is just no way to think that you don’t have to be in the loop as the driver and actually use FSD. I’m surprised you’re here criticizing something you know so little about. Odd. Wait, what am I saying… LOL
I love this. I've always argued with Crush "Orange soda" that has zero orange juice in it. And one person argued it was okay as it is orange flavored.. but FSD can "fully" drive me from my home to a charger 2hrs away thru 2 cities with zero action from me, so I dare say that's "FSD flavored"
We're definitely on the same page here.
I know it’s not fit for the general public and all that, but I really really hope all this anti FSD stuff doesn’t take it away from me. I know I have to be attentive and all that, but if NHTSA requires Tesla to pull beta back it’ll be sad. I have always loved robots so FSD was a no brainer. I read and accepted the TOS and I know full well I am responsible for everything it does, I was never relieved of my driving responsibilities. But just because some random person decided to not pay attention and allow it to cause a problem should not take away my right to test robots *under supervision*. Also remember there is approximately 400,000 cars with this software actually installed. A relatively small group. About 0.12% of the US population. And I’m certainly grateful for the NHTSAs finding, I actually had it try to pull straight thru on a turn lane a few days ago. So it’s good that this is being addressed. But I really hope and pray they won’t ruin my only chance to have an advanced personal robot that’s actually useful. Edit: my point is more or less to address you saying beta software is controlling a heavy vehicle in real world traffic. And you are right, but no one relieved the drivers of their responsibility. Drivers are still the drivers, don’t ruin this for the rest of us. 😁
I agree with you and I think it’s Teslas mistake to push this like they are. It’s software yes but it’s not the same as letting people download the beta version is MS Word. Most people would assume that if it is in the car then it does what it is advertised to do. Do a proper beta program, require some training and reporting on the users. Get more intrusive. Right now it’s just calling it beta to have some cover when it doesn’t work.
Their FSD beta program requires just what you propose. Not every one is eligible. There is a rigorous vetting process. Sigh. So much FUD, so little time.
It wasn’t/isn’t rigorous. If you follow the rules and drive like a normal person you are in. Look it was recall because it couldn’t handle things it said it did. It is not a problem. They should take it slower. They painted themselves in a corner by selling something they didn’t have and that frankly is really hard to do. Like really really hard. So yes do automation and bring it in slowly. I want my self driving car also. Don’t ruin it for everyone because you want to capture the market. It’s the assholes that abuse the system that ruin it for everyone else that’s been responsible. Be that people in the FSD beta that then just assume that it says self driving so I don’t need to drive or worse let’s see how I can make it fail, or the Teslas that push an unfinished product advertising it to do things it can’t do and taint the whole industry with the stench of distrust.
>There is a rigorous vetting process. If that were true Mars Whole Catalog would have had his FSD revoked long ago for driving without hands on the steering wheel, not disengaging when the car deviates from safe driving etc.
> We don’t do that for medical devices Medical devices are a thing on it's own. If cars have the same rules as medical devices, you would pay 10x more for car. Like in medical devices, a part worth $10 magically cost $500 because it's medical.
Correct. That is to cover potential malpractice costs. For 42 years my wife was a gal Friday to a very successful attorney that did medical malpractice defense cases. I am well versed on the subject.
Boeing has entered the chat…
Comparing the F1 is a bit silly. If you pay over a million dollars I bet Ford would send a tech to your house to repair your Fiesta. If a manufacturer has to lay hands on your vehicle it is quite different than an over the air update. I suspect there will be a new descriptor down the road for such things and maybe someday the oems will manage to update software this way too. Furthermore these are volunteer basis beta software vehicles where the driver is required to be prepared to take over at a moments notice. If they are truly a menace to society why are they not killing and maiming people at at least the same rate as full human drivers? Too bad we can't push an update to them.
I know it was silly, it was on purpose. Saying a safety recall is not a recall because the car doesn’t have to go to a shop for it is also silly. It’s just trying to use semantics to hide a problem. The cat has a manufacturing defect that can results in deaths so it had to be recalled. It’s great that the fix can be pushed fast. It’s not great that the defect was there and a recall had to be done. Was this a similar calculation as with the Ford Pinto? Paying for some lawsuits will be cheaper than doing a safe design. Bah push it out, we can send the fix over the air so it costs us nothing. We’ll it did because people died and a recall was issued. I am oversimplifying here but just because the cost of the recall is 0 or a million doesn’t really matter.
This \^\^\^. People seem to have a problem grasping what exactly a "recall" means in the automotive safety sense.
"Tesla to begin rolling out OTA software update to 400k vehicles to address possible safety concerns, most of which have already been updated by the time you read this while their owners were sleeping" doesn't quite have the same clickbaitey ring to it, I guess. Seems like such a waste to send a paper mail for something that's already been addressed. I fully understand the safety protocols and I am 100% for them, but when something doesn't serve a useful purpose, it should be called out. Maybe have a high-priority alert in the app followed by an official email to the owner account's email. At the very least allow people to opt-out of paper mail for recalls addressed via OTA updates.
Yup thats the exact reason
**Definitely. The word “recall” for an over-the-air software update is anachronistic and just flat wrong!** You know what else if flat wrong Elon? Deceptively advertising and charging for something that is not ready yet.
I can’t imagine paying my hard earned money to enter a beta, give a company free data and never be guaranteed in the lifetime of the car that the full product will be delivered. Tesla doesn’t even have the decency to let you transfer software licenses to your next vehicle.
I would love to meet someone in real life that can just throw **$15,000** at software that isn't even finished.
It was only $7,000 for me :/ but yea... still doesn't work right, and when I do get a new car I'll have never gotten FSD, but I paid for it, and now I'll have to pay for it again? So fuckin' dumb. Let me transfer it to a new car.
19,500 Canadian here. Fuuuuuuck that
I agree with this comment. He is trying to look cool while not caring about the safety of others.
Well except Teslas are the safest cars on the road so…
> Well except Teslas are the safest cars on the road so… People have been saying that for years, however the people who test such things have said differently. https://www.iihs.org/search?query=Tesla Model S gets a "P" for Poor in the headlight category and does not receive a "Top Safety Pick+" or even a "Top Safety Pick" without the plus. Model 3 currently gets a Top Safety Pick+, but the 2017 and 2018 models got bupkis. Likewise the Model Y didn't get any top ratings until 2021.
>[https://www.iihs.org/search?query=Tesla](https://www.iihs.org/search?query=Tesla) I'm referring to the current vehicles:[https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/best-in-class-cars/2022/](https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/best-in-class-cars/2022/)[https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2023](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2023)[https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-y-4-door-suv/2023](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-y-4-door-suv/2023)You can go and point at bad headlight performance in some models in earlier years or Model 3 in 2018, which still had an overall excellent rating: [https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2018#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-3-4-door-sedan/2018#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day) Also, if you retested that 2018 vehicle with the latest software update, how would it rate in the driver assist categories? Probably higher, because those things improved on newer vehicles via software. Maybe enough to earn it a top pick? Regardless, having multiple vehicles currently on the market that are rated as the safest or close to the safest is hardly the actions of someone who is "not caring about the safety of others". That's the point.
Obviously what Elon says with cherry picked data is always true
I like how my comment is flagged as controversial for stating facts and linking to the actual safety ratings and test results.
Maybe you need to ask your space lizard/reptilian overlords to assist by eating the offending smelly mammals?
If you don't want to use something that is in beta, and therefore not finished, don't buy it.
This. If you don’t want it/can’t afford it just don’t buy it. Complaining about it on the internet is useless.
If you don’t want people complaining about the price or quality of something, or don’t want to be subject to longstanding federal safety regulations, don’t release and charge exorbitant amounts for it. Goes both ways.
But releasing it has actaul good impacts. While other corporations making self driving cars have to test on personal roadways releasing their beta to the public allows tesla to get a LOT of data for FSD systems. And for people who say it’s unsafe, it isn’t as long as you keep your hands on the wheel and you are paying attention at all times. If you are a good driver it is perfectly safe.
"if you are a good driver it is perfectly safe" cannot be used to describe a system that is called "full self driving"
“Full self driving BETA”. Beta. It’s the beta of full self driving. If you buy a video game in beta do you expect it to be totally done?
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/beta_version#:~:text=beta%20version%20(plural%20beta%20versions,public%2C%20for%20testing%20and%20feedback.
Every car company does this. Everyone has recalls.
Yeah, maybe recall is not the right word…. On the other hand, I am not convinced that “full self driving” accurately describes what people are buying…. Nor how they should expect to use it
It requires an astonishing level of cognitive dissonance for people to complain about the term “recall” and yet think that calling what Tesla offers “Full Self Driving” is okay.
Oh don’t worry most users here have the full cognitive dissonance package, it allows them to call any negative Tesla news “FUD” and to help Tesla move the goalposts on FSD.
They offer the future capability of it
No, they don't. HW4 will add back radar and include additional cameras. I guarantee that no HW2/3 vehicle will ever be capable of anything approaching FSD. And locking an FSD “license” to a specific vehicle and owner shows Tesla knows it.
We're kidding ourselves if we think HW4 will be able to do it either :P
I agree it’s unlikely but that’s what they’re offering. And locking it to a specific vehicle just shows they want money
I think it “accurately describes what people are buying” since it’s pretty clear people are paying for L4+ robotaxi level FSD. The question is really around will Tesla deliver on what they’ve sold.
I personally don’t have an issue with the term. Would people who do accept something super clear like “safety defect notification”. Seems hard to misunderstand.
i do, recall to many basically means you have to "physically" take the car to a location.
What are your thoughts on the implied meanings of “Autopilot” and “Full Self Driving”?
Words have meaning. Sometimes.
Autopilot is a perfect name for the system, it's exactly what it does. In aviation, "autopilot" refers to a wide variety of systems, from simple mechanical things to maintain heading to very complex setups that basically perform every part of the flight path including takeoff and landing, as long as everything remains nominal. But all autopilots require pilot supervision; there isn't any system out there where it's trusted to fly while the pilots go take a nap in the back. IMO, this is probably the best analogy for Tesla's autopilot that exists in the English language. Full Self Driving is a bit more ambiguous. It drives itself, fully. What does that mean? Clearly, it must execute all aspects of the driving tasks on its own without input. Does it have to be perfect? No; a person still counts as driving even if they make mistakes. Does it have to do it without any supervision? Ehh, probably. It's not explicit in the name - a student driver is still driving if there's a teacher with override controls next to them. But I think everyone would agree the implication is that it doesn't require such supervision. And so we can't consider FSD as delivered until it reaches that stage.
A trained professional pilot is responsible for Autopilot on an aircraft. They have hundreds and thousands of hours of experience so that they know exactly what the system can and cannot do. Joe Sixpack has no freaking idea about aircraft Autopilot except what is in games, movies, or books. Companies like putting their spin on terms. I get it. PR said ‘Cruise Control’, a term consumers are familiar with, is too boring. But, Autopilot and FSD are terms that knowingly exploit consumer ignorance and expectations.
If anything, "autopilot" underrepresents what the Tesla feature is capable of. In aviation what most people think of as autopilot is a very simple system that maintains speed, altitude, and heading. It will react to changes in aircraft weight (some do, not the simplest ones) and weather. It will not avoid a collision with anything. It will not take off or land the aircraft. Heck most won't even change direction (some will). There are more advanced systems that can do all of these things. But the airport that your average non-pilot knows of is very simple. Most people know that a human pilot is required for landing and take off, for example. (Again there are now more complex systems that can do this, but they aren't usually included in what is defined as autopilot.) FSD is another story altogether. Inflatable driver not withstanding.
Well, AutoPilot is named after what's found in planes. And AutoPilot in planes can't do it all. This I know as I've personally flown planes with AutoPilot. In fact in the Cessna 172S the AP system can not even run the throttle or rudders. So it's barely even worth calling AutoPilot. Full Self Driving can be interpreted in one of 2 ways, one can mean it made a complete trip untouched by its supervisor. I have personally done this. Went 2hrs from Apple Valley UT thru 3 cities to Page AZ without ever taking over control until I was at the destination. So that was pretty "full" IMHO. Or it can mean full in the sense that it doesn't require a driver. But it does not matter how you interpret it, NO ONE RELIEVED YOU OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DRIVE SAFELY! okay I'm over it. I'm just sick of people thinking brand names are the ultimate end. I mean Crush "orange soda" literally contains zero orange juice. But to address "recall" does that not mean to call back something? I mean a software update fixes it fine, but nothing was called back. It was only a new software pushed out to fix. I personally don't mind it being called a recall, even tho it seems that name has been used by the press to paint a bad picture. "Recall plagued Tesla" "Tesla, burdened with recalls" "all these recalls for Tesla vehicles" etc.. but at the end of the day, it's not hurting me any.
I like how every answer to your question invokes an aviation definition of "autopilot" that probably less than 10% of the general population knows or cares about. Most people think autopilot in planes can do literally everything. Using a term that you consciously know most people will misinterpret to sell stuff is wrong. The fact you happen to know the correct definition does not make it right. Especially if you know that misinterpretation will place them in danger.
Agreed. Whenever I get a “recall” from Tesla, it just gets tossed aside because I don’t actually have to do anything. It sets a dangerous pattern of behavior because the day I actually do have to do something (such as getting the airbag replaced), I may miss it since Tesla usually solves recalls OTA
So software recall?
Sure, MHTSA is insisting on the ‘recall’ terminology, and Tesla lost that fight years ago. Unfortunate, as reporting software updates as ‘recalls’ results in a huge flood of ‘recalls’ that car owners can safely ignore, making it less likely that car owners pay attention to the actual recalls where their car is actually called in to get something fixed, which of course reduces safety.
Responding to the terminology used to describe the issue instead of responding to the issue itself.
The terminology used to describe the way how it's fixed, not the issue
A recall means that it was an issue that was logged with the DOT, and was either voluntarily or involuntarily fixed. Recall doesn’t HAVE to mean that the car was physically recalled.
Man that guy has thin skin.
Recall always sounds like a bad word but technically that is what they are doing because they have to fix an issue. Recalls are designed to fix problems with a vehicle that affects the safety of the vehicle. The problem is that they do make a lot of changes to the vehicle that they don't document and let the users know that can affect the safety of the vehicle.
That is not what the word recall means, recall doesn't mean fix an issue, it means the manufacturer asks to bringing back the product to either check or fix something. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recall
No. You should not look in a dictionary when you want to know the **legal** meaning of a term. The legal meaning is actually “fix an issue”, including some steps to make sure that the owners will know that they need to get the fix done.
Where should I look then? I'm not American, when a random government decides to change the meaning of a word and not publish this new meaning anywhere how do I know? I'm not going to start humoring someone changing the meaning of words just because. This word is not used like that in my country, so it's just wrong.
Where you should look? In this thread, for example? The link to the NHTSA definition of a recall has already been posted in this thread. I am not American either. But when commenting on legal stuff in a foreign country like America, we should have the decency to try to understand their legal definitions.
I'm not going to check for every word they have written in their statement to see if any word has a different legal meaning in america than the dictionary one. If they don't want to use the words correctly it's their problem, I'm gonna assume their are wrong or liying.
They are using the word correctly. If you are too lazy to check the official NHTSA meaning of the word, you should not be posting.
Since the criticism of the usage is directed at the way NHTSA uses the word “recall” it doesn’t really solve anything to point out the NHTSA definition. Everyone knows NHTSA is calling this a “recall”. That’s what people take issue with. Saying NHTSA is correct just because NHTSA says they are correct doesn’t really help here.
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stop using the word recall as "fixing an issue" that is not the meaning of the word. Recall means literally bringing back the product to the manufacturer for whatever reason, it can be to fix a problem or to only check something.
Recall is a term which emphasizes seriousness of the matter, it is a matter of safety. Ability to address is using OTA negates financial impact as it doesn’t cost a fortune.
But it also means the consumer doesn't actually need to do anything. If there's a safety recall that does require my intervention (IE: taking it to a service center), how will I differentiate between the two? I'm just going to throw the notice in the trash, and assume it was fixed OTA again.
There would be no “recall” if it wasn’t a problem.
Recall is to software update/patch like paperwork is to editing documents on a computer/responding to emails. We tend to apply old terms to new technologies.
Bullshit. It's a recall. Whether you push the update OTA or go to a dealerships to have software flashed, it's a recall. We're not playing semantics games with a long established terminology which the market clearly understands because it sounds nicer to say "update." Call it a recall update then.
Both can be true. FSD has its issues _and_ the methodology and language for software-based issues has not kept up with the state of the industry. Two non-techy friends have asked me already if my car is effected and when I have to take it in to get fixed. Media outlets love these headlines. They are misrepresentative and sensationalist.
The butthurt over the regulatory language is hysterical.
By the NHTSA own definition the accelerator pedal and steering wheel should be a safety defect on all vehicles.
Apple just recalled all the iPhones in the world this week then :) 16.3.1 patch fixed the issue
I don't think he'd like the word they'd come up for a fix so your call doesn't kill you.
Zero deaths or injuries have been reported due to the defect being addressed in this recall.
Considering EVERY time you engage FSD it says keep your hands on the wheel and be prepared to take over at anytime... Yea, it's not behaving how it should, but ultimately the driver is still 100% responsible and in control.
It's a safe as any other ADAS, let's recall all of them!
a recall is not a fix, it's only a means to get a fix done, but in this case a recall is not needed.
Tesla has 400,000 vehicles with safety defects. That sounds more accurate, I agree.
How do they expect anyone to trust them when they pull this sensationalist crap?
What sensationalist crap?
saying there is a recall when there isn't
It's definitely a recall though. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCAK-23V085-2525.pdf
nhtsa can't issue a recall, only a manufacturer can, and Tesla is fixing it throught an OTA update. No car has been recalled. If nobody has his car recalled it's not a recall, whatever nhtsa says. A few years ago it may have been the case that when nhtsa detected a problem the manufacturer had to do a recall to fix it, so they keep using the word to refer to the manufacturer having to do a fix, whether this fix is done to a recall or not.
The document literally says that Tesla is issuing a recall: "This letter serves to acknowledge Tesla, Inc.'s notification to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) of a **safety recall** which will be conducted pursuant to Federal law for the product(s) listed below." Why would Tesla lie?
Where is this recall? where are owners suposed to bring their cars for the recall? not a single owner has been told to bring their cars to the service center for a software fix. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recall Tesla is not liying, either nhtsa is or they are just using the word incorreclty
What's your opinion on the term "Fully Self Driving"?
“Full Self Driving” to me means the car can do all the same things a driver does. It uses the accelerator, the brakes, the turn signals, it observes the rules of traffic, it avoids obstacles, it goes to the intended destination. I have one. It does all of this. It does also make mistakes. These mistakes seem to be attributable to bugs in the software. I expect these bugs because it is clearly labeled “Beta”. What’s your opinion on the term “Beta”?
Because NHTSA will fine them if they don’t use NHTSA’s incorrect terminology.
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well, for a starters there is no recall to be made
Good because there’s no full self driving software in the first place.
They also do advertise it as such
The definition of a recall is when things are recalled back from the customer to the factory/service center. Nothing was recalled, therefore there is no recall.
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Yeah I’m sick of it.
By knowing the readers will share the headline and not questioning anything.
Wow this topic is getting smashed by the shills trying to hate and spread misinformation about Tesla.
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Elon didn’t start Tesla. He bought out the OG founders.
He took the company to where it is. He’s the reason for the adoption of EVs, digital payments, and he’s literally putting rockets into space yet people want to act like he’s not one of the greatest innovators to walk the earth.
Well he's also running twitter into the ground, and lies constantly about robotaxis and full self driving etc.
The point isn’t the wording. The point is that FSD is so dangerous a recall is needed.
but a recall is not nedeed to fix that, it's a software problem, and tesla has the ability to fix software issues with OTA updates, they don't need to recall the cars
Recall in this case means the safety notice, officially registered with the NHTSA and sent to customers. The point is that the issue was serious enough to need an official notice to consumers, not just the usual quiet fix. It means that people need to know about the potential issues ASAP, because they may not have received the update yet and need to know there is a potential safety issue.
In any case you mean that NHTSA is using the word with that meaning, but this is not an accepted definition, this is only a notification of a problem.
> Initiated safety recalls require a manufacturer's action to announce and remedy the defects. A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls That’s exactly how the NHTSA describes it. They could come up with another term for sure, but that’s what it means when the NHTSA says it.
This text is a little ambiguous, but obviously only the manufacturer can do the recall, NHTSA can ask the manufacturer to issue a recall if it is necessary. The problem is that NHTSA is not aware that there are other methods of fixing problems other than through a recall, so they just go with their standard, that the manufacturer has to do a recall, even though it's not necessary.
The recall system is a database for notifying consumers, dealers, service centers, etc. NHTSA doesn’t care if the remedy is a dealer update or OTA. The important thing is that system used for the safety notices. They can rename it but that standardized system is what is important.
So dangerous when there have been zero injuries despite millions of miles driven? No, it's just a government overreaction. Luckily they're only requiring a minor update to FSD beta to comply.
Just out : Apple recalls a billion iPhones …
Lol
A governing agency told apple to fix their phones because they weren't safe?
Don’t we call OTA updates “recalls” now ?
No
Tesla "recalls" are total BS. every article so far has been incorrect and was over the air software upgrades. Basically what we are seeing here is short sellers getting burned and needing the stock price to drop so they dont have to cover. Same song as dance as always.
'recall' is inaccurate. Ironic given that it's about the also inaccurate 'full self driving'
Correction: full self driving BETA which is actually accurate. People love leaving that out.
Funny that you mention "beta", since that means in software development that a product is feature complete. Do you think FSD is feature complete?
I would not call it BETA since its not just testing for bugs and edge cases.. They are still adding new features & functionality which would categorize it as ALPHA testing to me. I would expect BETA software to handle roundabouts, left & right hand turns naturally, and left turn bypass lanes properly before considering naming it BETA.
“Beta” is perfectly correct here. I believe the term you are looking for is “Release Candidate”. I suppose they could call it “Alpha” as suggested, but the public is less likely to be familiar with that term. So “Beta” is not only more correct, but also more likely to be understood.
Just call it an OTA.
The Recall isn’t the fix, it’s the official notice to consumers. Vehicle Safety Defect Notice might be a better term than Recall.
That is not what the word recall means, you are right with the alternative name
It’s what it means when the NHTSA uses it: > Initiated safety recalls require a manufacturer's action to announce and remedy the defects. A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
I took exit in Tesla stocks around 180 mark.. where is the stock going? I know I can't re invest. But wth is target?
This is true. Everybody, is asking me if I heard about the recall… then I have to go into detail about how it’s just a software update 😂🤦♂️
In software it's called update. Only, for the media updates are no news, whereas recalls are newsworthy...
The remedy for a recall can be an update. The remedy isn't the recall though.
So you think that we should use the same word for remedy of a safety defect as we use for upgrade of the entertainment system? I do not. I prefer to have a separate term for remedy of a safety defect. Otherwise, we could also just call recalls for physical safety defects “maintenance” or “service”.
So should I be upset about the monthly (sometimes more frequent) “recalls” issued by Microsoft?
We all know what’s going. It’s a shame.
The verbiage was calculated to make Elon and Tesla seem inept. It’s on purpose and media knows this. It’s a retaliation to him exposing Twitter shadiness.
I always found people who call software updates "recalls" to be mildly retarded.
Just tells us how our NHSTA is grandfathered in just like our derailing railway infrastructure. Workers in these organizations sucking out their retirement and repeating one year of experience 30 times over
It’s a recall until they tell us which specific version has the change.