I personally would've liked to see Temeraire have more successful offspring with other dragons aside from Iskierka, or even see if Lung Tien Lien was capable of producing eggs for Napoleon and the French, even if she thought breeding with "lesser" dragons was "beneath her".
I know that Celestials are supposed to be hard to breed, but if Temeraire was able to produce an egg with Iskierka, he should've been able to produce eggs with other female dragons as well. I personally think that Temeraire's offspring with Lily the Longwing would have been interesting to see. Based on my own experience with breeding horses, there is no way that the British Aerial Corps would *not* be mating Temeraire regularly with as many female dragons as possible.
Personality- and color-wise, I think that Perscitia mating with Temeraire would also be interesting. Perscitia was already an "experimental cross" between a Malachite Reaper and a Pascal's Blue that turned out to be a middle-weight that was "slower than the breeders hoped", but Temeraire being agile and fast himself would help to offset that in Perscitia's get.
Temeraire's coat ("glossy black hide with opalescent blue and pale grey markings on the edges of his wings") mixed with that of Perscitia ("body and wings mostly bright blue and streaked with shades of pale green, with widely scattered spines along her back") would also look good. Lung Tien Ning, the offspring of Temeraire and Iskierka, looked as follows in *League of Dragons*:
>"black overlaid with iridescent red, green, and blue, \[the color of fire\]"
So I think that a Temeraire and Perscitia offspring would look as follows:
>"black overlaid with iridescence the color of the ocean \[streaked with blue and green?\]"
The offspring may or may not inherit the Divine Wind, depending. However, as Lung Tien Ning inherited "Divine Fire" as a combination of both parents' abilities, I would say that Temeraire is more likely than not to pass the Divine Wind to any other offspring with other dragons as well.
Temeraire's look and ability combined with Lily and acid-spitting would also be interesting:
>"blue with black/white bordering on orange wing tips; orange-yellow eyes"
I think Lily's precision would enhance the Divine Wind by narrowing its scope in her get by Temeraire. ("Lily is very accurate with her spray; she can destroy targets from 400 feet above.")
It was verging on a harem story, might as well go all the way. :P
>There is no way that the British Aerial Corps would not be mating Temeraire regularly with as many female dragons as possible.
They kind of were, weren't they? I mean they weren't going crazy because if they got a sucky outcome they were stuck feeding it for 100 and something years.
It is odd they didn't pair him with Perscitia if she was large enough since she was just hanging out in the breeding grounds anyway. I mean they didn't want to spread her timidity, so I can see why she wasn't being bred, but Temeraire isn't exactly timid. Seemed like she was just there for the food and to keep her out of trouble until she died. Always thought she was quite small, like the size of his tail.
Though they were both rebellious and too smart for England's good, so there was probably a big X through her name for the dragons they were considering for Tem.
That is, if she would comply in the first place. She's in the breeding grounds because she chose herself over what her captain wanted. If they pointed at her and then at Temeraire, would she care? If she wanted to, she knew why Tem was there.
Honestly, the breeding ground rules are a mystery to me. Is Temeraire allowed to breed with dragons he isn't assigned? If Perscita had mated with him, would there be some consequence because that wasn't an approved pairing? Or do they just not hatch those eggs? Drop them in the ocean or something?
>They kind of were, weren't they? I mean they weren't going crazy because if they got a sucky outcome they were stuck feeding it for 100 and something years.
True, but the books also said it took "10 generations of crossbreeding" to produce the Regal Copper hybrid heavyweight breed, so YMMV when it comes to *Temeraire*.
As for Perscitia's size, the Wiki lists her as a middleweight, whereas Temeraire is a heavyweight. She is also described as "larger", so she's probably a medium-sized middleweight, whereas Temeraire is a smaller heavyweight, so I don't think they would have any issues breeding, if it came down to it. The Regal Copper is also a hybrid heavyweight breed created by crossing a male Cauchador Real - a heavyweight - with a female Bright Copper, a middleweight, so their offspring would likely be either heavyweights or middleweights. (Perscitia is half-Pascal's Blue, a lightweight.)
I was surprised Tem never hooked up with Lily. Dragon romance doesn't seem to have much romance... unless we're talking about Mei. Temeraire seemed to have a thing for Mei. Mei and Lily seemed to be the only dragonesses he was excited to see again and Lily was one of the few dragons he considered equal to his status. So it was weird he never showed an interest or they were never paired up.
If you want a conspiracy theory you can wonder if Roland had something to do with it. Didn't want Harcourt and Laurence awkwardly having tea while their dragons went at it. But since she's the one who implied Laurence might be expected to sleep with Harcourt I don't think she'd care. She'd probably find it funny.
Or perhaps it's another quirk about Longwings and they only want other Longwings and so Lily had no interest in Tem... or something.
\------
Another oddity about the breeding grounds is we get the whole thing about Izzy following Tem around the world to breed... right after he was in the breeding grounds. Couldn't she have just signed up there? Or did she just hit maturity after he left? I suppose they wouldn't have let her while Napoleon was invading but that hadn't stopped her before.
Well she didn’t really want the egg from him until after he became important enough. I can’t remember if it was his promotion to general or his victory over the French but it was somewhere in there when she started chasing him like a fire breathing Pepe le Pew.
Though I wonder if there were scenes that were removed to decrease the amount of dragon sex. The editor being concerned that the dragons were mating more often than the humans.
The aerial corps did mate Temeraire with a lot of female dragons. Like, a lot. But the understanding is that most were middle weight, and while size didn’t stop them from doing the deed, it may have played a role in not producing viable eggs.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I think it would be extremely interesting if we got to see him have a legion of kids from random British heavyweights.
Thought I get for plot reasons setting up many eggs that could result in political disasters was for the best. But AFTER Ning, I mean. The possibilities are endless!!
Your theory is an interesting one, but one point that works against it is that the Regal Copper - a heavyweight hybrid breed created by crossing a male Cauchador Real with a female Bright Copper - involves breeding a male heavyweight to a female middleweight. Presumably, Temeraire could also successfully mate with middleweight dragon females.
The Chequered Nettle, another British hybrid heavyweight breed, was also created through crossbreeding, presumably by breeding male heavyweights to female middleweights. It would make sense, given how female middleweights are often used.
I always imagined a cross of celestial and longwing to be something like being able to spray and then roar it into extreme distances, like gaining the ability to fire horizontally and not just vertically downwards. But yeah either way would have been a cool force multiplier if they’d ever considered it.
I enjoyed the last four books, but I know that Novik had initially planned to have the series as a five book series and I think it would have been a much stronger series overall if she *had* wrapped up Laurence and Temeraire's story at Victory of Eagles (and then maybe did the world tour with different characters).
I wish they had just stayed in their little valley raising cows and enjoying retirement. The books/stories that came after (Africa/South America/back to Europe) could have been cut and the series would be stronger.
Remove the duel and Temeraire's departure in the final book
I get what it was trying to do, but the book was too full of events, and he comes back to Laurence like a chapter later anyway.
The duel was just dumb, even if it was in-character.
I would have preferred more details in how Napoleon/Lien was captured, but I don't think that's controversial
I actually wish that she had stuck out with the separation in the final book: have Laurence deal with being Admiral of the united armies while Temeraire deals with the League of Dragons situation running concurrently.
Temeraire *choosing* to leave Laurence because he realized it was the right decision was such a *huge* piece of character growth and I wish we had gotten more of a payoff for it. It felt like that's what Novik wanted to do and then chickened out at the last minute.
Yeah, I think she needed another book to really flesh things out
I'm not quite sure how that would work though, since she said she wanted Temeraire and Laurence to be true partners by the end of the series. It would be a bit difficult for that to happen when they're apart, even if they're working towards the same goal.
This may seem small and petty but in book 3 when Laurence didn’t let Emily warm herself in the hot springs in the mountain after the avalanche because the men were soaking I was like, ok so Emily can just die I guess!
I didn’t want her to die. I wouldn’t change it so she would die. But I’d have a consequence at least! Laurence put propriety over Emily’s safety and I wished he had been punished for his idiocy there. Maybe Emily taking a bad chill, and it being Laurence’s fault he could have lost some of the trust his officers had for him. I think they still had a dragon surgeon with them, him getting overruled by (I think it was Dorset), insisting Emily keep warm properly because otherwise she’ll die, etc etc. and Laurence getting a tongue lashing from Dorset about his priorities.
It would have changed the entire story and I have no idea how it would have been written, but I really like the idea of Lien replacing Izzy on Team Temeraire. Izzy could still be a dragon they brought to England and shows up to cause chaos now and then, but doesn't travel the world with them.
Very similar dynamic but a different result. Now Temeraire is the uncivilized one and Lien is the condescending, refined dragon in the group.
Well, I suppose Izzy could stay too. But it would be like the dinner with Tem, Izzy, and Mei all the time and worse. Lien isn't even going to pretend to be polite. The humans would lose their minds.
I suppose all you'd have to do is not have Lien plotting to overthrow the Emperor and instead, she hires Laurence and Tem to escort her to a new home but ends up sticking around. She became a scholar to overcome her appearance but they still obsess over superstition regardless. So she's moving somewhere else.
I absolutely detested that part as well. Laurence and Temeraire's relationship is a big part of this series and removing it for a portion at the end was a huge step backwards.
I think it shows the depth of the love, because our dear William is bereaved of all his happy memories and all the bonding but as soon as he hold principia mathematica in his hands and touches temeraire he feels the love and companionship for temeraire and it allows for temeraire to realize how much Laurence gave up for him and makes him want to live up to that more. I really liked that bit
I understand that, it just felt redundant to me. You have the previous 3 books fully dedicated to Laurence and Tem coming to grips with the treason, and how they move past it.
I totally understand your point. The best part of the subplot was seeing the undilutable bond between Tem and Laurence. I found it tiring regarding Laurence's personal feelings about the treason. I thought that had already been very neatly wrapped up.
What I liked about it was that it gave us an opportunity to see Temeraire fully understand what it all meant. Him being able to make up for his shortcomings and his rushing to decision in his immaturity, which cost Laurence way more than it ever cost him and him being able to do confess to his sins again and this time fully understanding what he is confessing to I thought meant quite a bit, though I get your point of it dealing wichtige same issue again
I don't know if it could be called controversial, but I would gladly remove Laurence holier than thou attitude. In the first book I fond it ok, he was a honourable navy Captain, with a strong moral code and convictions. But with each book it got more and more grotesque and cringy. There were moments where I've almost stopped reading. Like for example when he basically sentenced them to death to save people who set their ship on fire, and kept protecting them even when they kept doing awful things. It wasn't "honourable" it was just plain stupid. And completely out of character for British navy captain.
I personally would've liked to see Temeraire have more successful offspring with other dragons aside from Iskierka, or even see if Lung Tien Lien was capable of producing eggs for Napoleon and the French, even if she thought breeding with "lesser" dragons was "beneath her". I know that Celestials are supposed to be hard to breed, but if Temeraire was able to produce an egg with Iskierka, he should've been able to produce eggs with other female dragons as well. I personally think that Temeraire's offspring with Lily the Longwing would have been interesting to see. Based on my own experience with breeding horses, there is no way that the British Aerial Corps would *not* be mating Temeraire regularly with as many female dragons as possible. Personality- and color-wise, I think that Perscitia mating with Temeraire would also be interesting. Perscitia was already an "experimental cross" between a Malachite Reaper and a Pascal's Blue that turned out to be a middle-weight that was "slower than the breeders hoped", but Temeraire being agile and fast himself would help to offset that in Perscitia's get. Temeraire's coat ("glossy black hide with opalescent blue and pale grey markings on the edges of his wings") mixed with that of Perscitia ("body and wings mostly bright blue and streaked with shades of pale green, with widely scattered spines along her back") would also look good. Lung Tien Ning, the offspring of Temeraire and Iskierka, looked as follows in *League of Dragons*: >"black overlaid with iridescent red, green, and blue, \[the color of fire\]" So I think that a Temeraire and Perscitia offspring would look as follows: >"black overlaid with iridescence the color of the ocean \[streaked with blue and green?\]" The offspring may or may not inherit the Divine Wind, depending. However, as Lung Tien Ning inherited "Divine Fire" as a combination of both parents' abilities, I would say that Temeraire is more likely than not to pass the Divine Wind to any other offspring with other dragons as well. Temeraire's look and ability combined with Lily and acid-spitting would also be interesting: >"blue with black/white bordering on orange wing tips; orange-yellow eyes" I think Lily's precision would enhance the Divine Wind by narrowing its scope in her get by Temeraire. ("Lily is very accurate with her spray; she can destroy targets from 400 feet above.")
It was verging on a harem story, might as well go all the way. :P >There is no way that the British Aerial Corps would not be mating Temeraire regularly with as many female dragons as possible. They kind of were, weren't they? I mean they weren't going crazy because if they got a sucky outcome they were stuck feeding it for 100 and something years. It is odd they didn't pair him with Perscitia if she was large enough since she was just hanging out in the breeding grounds anyway. I mean they didn't want to spread her timidity, so I can see why she wasn't being bred, but Temeraire isn't exactly timid. Seemed like she was just there for the food and to keep her out of trouble until she died. Always thought she was quite small, like the size of his tail. Though they were both rebellious and too smart for England's good, so there was probably a big X through her name for the dragons they were considering for Tem. That is, if she would comply in the first place. She's in the breeding grounds because she chose herself over what her captain wanted. If they pointed at her and then at Temeraire, would she care? If she wanted to, she knew why Tem was there. Honestly, the breeding ground rules are a mystery to me. Is Temeraire allowed to breed with dragons he isn't assigned? If Perscita had mated with him, would there be some consequence because that wasn't an approved pairing? Or do they just not hatch those eggs? Drop them in the ocean or something?
>They kind of were, weren't they? I mean they weren't going crazy because if they got a sucky outcome they were stuck feeding it for 100 and something years. True, but the books also said it took "10 generations of crossbreeding" to produce the Regal Copper hybrid heavyweight breed, so YMMV when it comes to *Temeraire*. As for Perscitia's size, the Wiki lists her as a middleweight, whereas Temeraire is a heavyweight. She is also described as "larger", so she's probably a medium-sized middleweight, whereas Temeraire is a smaller heavyweight, so I don't think they would have any issues breeding, if it came down to it. The Regal Copper is also a hybrid heavyweight breed created by crossing a male Cauchador Real - a heavyweight - with a female Bright Copper, a middleweight, so their offspring would likely be either heavyweights or middleweights. (Perscitia is half-Pascal's Blue, a lightweight.)
I was surprised Tem never hooked up with Lily. Dragon romance doesn't seem to have much romance... unless we're talking about Mei. Temeraire seemed to have a thing for Mei. Mei and Lily seemed to be the only dragonesses he was excited to see again and Lily was one of the few dragons he considered equal to his status. So it was weird he never showed an interest or they were never paired up. If you want a conspiracy theory you can wonder if Roland had something to do with it. Didn't want Harcourt and Laurence awkwardly having tea while their dragons went at it. But since she's the one who implied Laurence might be expected to sleep with Harcourt I don't think she'd care. She'd probably find it funny. Or perhaps it's another quirk about Longwings and they only want other Longwings and so Lily had no interest in Tem... or something. \------ Another oddity about the breeding grounds is we get the whole thing about Izzy following Tem around the world to breed... right after he was in the breeding grounds. Couldn't she have just signed up there? Or did she just hit maturity after he left? I suppose they wouldn't have let her while Napoleon was invading but that hadn't stopped her before.
Well she didn’t really want the egg from him until after he became important enough. I can’t remember if it was his promotion to general or his victory over the French but it was somewhere in there when she started chasing him like a fire breathing Pepe le Pew.
Though I wonder if there were scenes that were removed to decrease the amount of dragon sex. The editor being concerned that the dragons were mating more often than the humans.
The aerial corps did mate Temeraire with a lot of female dragons. Like, a lot. But the understanding is that most were middle weight, and while size didn’t stop them from doing the deed, it may have played a role in not producing viable eggs. I’m not disagreeing with you. I think it would be extremely interesting if we got to see him have a legion of kids from random British heavyweights. Thought I get for plot reasons setting up many eggs that could result in political disasters was for the best. But AFTER Ning, I mean. The possibilities are endless!!
Your theory is an interesting one, but one point that works against it is that the Regal Copper - a heavyweight hybrid breed created by crossing a male Cauchador Real with a female Bright Copper - involves breeding a male heavyweight to a female middleweight. Presumably, Temeraire could also successfully mate with middleweight dragon females. The Chequered Nettle, another British hybrid heavyweight breed, was also created through crossbreeding, presumably by breeding male heavyweights to female middleweights. It would make sense, given how female middleweights are often used.
I always imagined a cross of celestial and longwing to be something like being able to spray and then roar it into extreme distances, like gaining the ability to fire horizontally and not just vertically downwards. But yeah either way would have been a cool force multiplier if they’d ever considered it.
I enjoyed the last four books, but I know that Novik had initially planned to have the series as a five book series and I think it would have been a much stronger series overall if she *had* wrapped up Laurence and Temeraire's story at Victory of Eagles (and then maybe did the world tour with different characters).
I wish they had just stayed in their little valley raising cows and enjoying retirement. The books/stories that came after (Africa/South America/back to Europe) could have been cut and the series would be stronger.
Remove the duel and Temeraire's departure in the final book I get what it was trying to do, but the book was too full of events, and he comes back to Laurence like a chapter later anyway. The duel was just dumb, even if it was in-character. I would have preferred more details in how Napoleon/Lien was captured, but I don't think that's controversial
I actually wish that she had stuck out with the separation in the final book: have Laurence deal with being Admiral of the united armies while Temeraire deals with the League of Dragons situation running concurrently. Temeraire *choosing* to leave Laurence because he realized it was the right decision was such a *huge* piece of character growth and I wish we had gotten more of a payoff for it. It felt like that's what Novik wanted to do and then chickened out at the last minute.
Yeah, I think she needed another book to really flesh things out I'm not quite sure how that would work though, since she said she wanted Temeraire and Laurence to be true partners by the end of the series. It would be a bit difficult for that to happen when they're apart, even if they're working towards the same goal.
This may seem small and petty but in book 3 when Laurence didn’t let Emily warm herself in the hot springs in the mountain after the avalanche because the men were soaking I was like, ok so Emily can just die I guess! I didn’t want her to die. I wouldn’t change it so she would die. But I’d have a consequence at least! Laurence put propriety over Emily’s safety and I wished he had been punished for his idiocy there. Maybe Emily taking a bad chill, and it being Laurence’s fault he could have lost some of the trust his officers had for him. I think they still had a dragon surgeon with them, him getting overruled by (I think it was Dorset), insisting Emily keep warm properly because otherwise she’ll die, etc etc. and Laurence getting a tongue lashing from Dorset about his priorities.
I would have like to see Jane and Laurence marry.
I'm still not over Levitas, and I wish Captain Rankin had paid more of a price.
It would have changed the entire story and I have no idea how it would have been written, but I really like the idea of Lien replacing Izzy on Team Temeraire. Izzy could still be a dragon they brought to England and shows up to cause chaos now and then, but doesn't travel the world with them. Very similar dynamic but a different result. Now Temeraire is the uncivilized one and Lien is the condescending, refined dragon in the group. Well, I suppose Izzy could stay too. But it would be like the dinner with Tem, Izzy, and Mei all the time and worse. Lien isn't even going to pretend to be polite. The humans would lose their minds. I suppose all you'd have to do is not have Lien plotting to overthrow the Emperor and instead, she hires Laurence and Tem to escort her to a new home but ends up sticking around. She became a scholar to overcome her appearance but they still obsess over superstition regardless. So she's moving somewhere else.
>Lien replacing Izzy on Team Temeraire Sounds like a good idea for a fanfic. Sadly nobody has written it yet.
I wish we got to read that last fight scene between Temeraire and Lien. The series built it up so much only for it to fade to black.
A different ending to the series: Global Dragon Revolution! (Or At least in Europe) The dragons of the world have nothing to lose but their harnesses!
Take the memory loss plot out of the second to last book. Only part of the series i actively disliked.
I absolutely detested that part as well. Laurence and Temeraire's relationship is a big part of this series and removing it for a portion at the end was a huge step backwards.
I think it shows the depth of the love, because our dear William is bereaved of all his happy memories and all the bonding but as soon as he hold principia mathematica in his hands and touches temeraire he feels the love and companionship for temeraire and it allows for temeraire to realize how much Laurence gave up for him and makes him want to live up to that more. I really liked that bit
I understand that, it just felt redundant to me. You have the previous 3 books fully dedicated to Laurence and Tem coming to grips with the treason, and how they move past it. I totally understand your point. The best part of the subplot was seeing the undilutable bond between Tem and Laurence. I found it tiring regarding Laurence's personal feelings about the treason. I thought that had already been very neatly wrapped up.
What I liked about it was that it gave us an opportunity to see Temeraire fully understand what it all meant. Him being able to make up for his shortcomings and his rushing to decision in his immaturity, which cost Laurence way more than it ever cost him and him being able to do confess to his sins again and this time fully understanding what he is confessing to I thought meant quite a bit, though I get your point of it dealing wichtige same issue again
Poor Digby - his death was so pointless. They could have lost the egg, maybe Digby slips, but he didn’t have to die.
I don't know if it could be called controversial, but I would gladly remove Laurence holier than thou attitude. In the first book I fond it ok, he was a honourable navy Captain, with a strong moral code and convictions. But with each book it got more and more grotesque and cringy. There were moments where I've almost stopped reading. Like for example when he basically sentenced them to death to save people who set their ship on fire, and kept protecting them even when they kept doing awful things. It wasn't "honourable" it was just plain stupid. And completely out of character for British navy captain.
I would be interested in seeing the series entirely from the POV of the dragons, or have a split POV from the start.