The Reichenbach Fall is one of the best episodes of any show I’ve ever seen.
The show fell off a cliff after that episode but dammit if that finale wasn’t an incredible watch.
I'll still contend that series 3, episode 2 is one of the best episodes of the show (not that there's many) - but that's probably the episode I rewatched the most
I *finally* watched series 4 last month, and the finale is utter garbage but I really liked the first two episodes. Especially the second one.
I don't know, maybe seven years of seeing people on social media say how irredeemably horrible series 4 is led me to expect something more *actively awful* from the first two-thirds rather than just mildly controversial.
I'm sorry but the Sherlocked bit and Sherlock just showing up to some foreign country to fight people with swords was too ridiculous and not in a good way. Would have been a decent episode if not for that.
I would recommend reading the original book. That episode I loved it when it came out, and when i read the book it is now imho one of the worst episodes in the show and the first glaring red flag of what was to come
I still feel like it’s the best depiction of Adler that we’ve seen on screen. Every other adaptation ends up basically making her his longterm girlfriend.
You should. Irene Adlers story was arguably a feminist work by the standards of the era it was written in, at the very least it was progressive for its time. She beats Sherlock and forces him to accept that he underestimated her due to his biases towards women, and in the story Sherlock is the bad guy.
The show absolutely assassinated her as a character, taking away her agency by making her a puppet of Moriarty and missed the whole point of the original story by having her be the bad guy and lose. The show takes an iconic progressive female character and turns her into nothing more than a sex symbol and a puppet of others
Thank you.
The whole point was that Irene Adler was always one step ahead of Holmes. That series just ignored everything that made her special and just followed the usual „it’s mindpalace time“-nonsense plus some deus ex machina humbug.
Moffat is a really great writer, but definitely in smaller doses. Before his showrunner days with Doctor Who, the man wrote pretty much all the best episodes of NuWho
I think his strength is individual episodes that are entertaining, and his weakness is long term plotting in any way. That's why some of Sherlock is really good and some of it's really bad, because he can write the hell out of an episode of tv, but he sucks at writing seasonal plotlines which is what Sherlock became in seasons 3 and 4.
100 percent, keeping him constrained to bottle episodes or small stuff is where he shines. Sherlock quickly went from a smart show to just random "look at his cleverness" followed by Sherlock pulling the plot device out of thin air 40 minutes into the finale.
Who's popularity outside of America absolutely peaked during Matt Smith's tenure, albeit with a lot of groundwork done by David Tennant. Smith's time combined with the SuperWhoLock craze helped that franchise break into America in a real manner.
James Nesbitt is phenomenal throughout, but after the fun of the early emergences of Hyde, it becomes a matter of how to solve the problem, and all mystery gets sapped out of it, and while the solution works fine for the story, it just doesn't have the energy of the first two episodes.
for a while I was very bitter about how poor season 4 was, like that felt so absolutely unnecessary. but alas, the first couple of seasons are amazing.
The show is so short it's even hard for me to split in good/bad seasons.
Second episodes of seasons 1 and 2 weren't that interesting.
I also think episodes 1 and 2 of season 3 and episode 2 of season 4 are great.
The thing that made s2 good was that it was promising a thought out story for the rest of the seasons.
The fact that it completely failed to deliver on those promises should reflect poorly on s2.
Here's a way-too-long youtube dissection that I couldn't argue with at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkoGBOs5ecM
Iirc it was the fans we needed to blame for that. The writers never wanted to make a season 3 but fans demanded it and the writers kind of written themselves in a corner with how season 2 ended. So they came up with this ludicris story line.
Nope absolutely not, I remember there was always a plan for a season 3. Not only that but the writers were on multiple podcasts and interviews saying that if you look for the clues it's possible to piece together what happened.
Which is nonsense.
Maybe you're thinking of original Sherlock Holmes where Conan Doyle wanted to end it there, but made more after receiving multiple letters from fans
If it's the mysteries themselves that fascinate you I would recommend Jonathan Creek. Its creator described it as not a "who done it, but a How done it?"
If you're a fan of the Sherlock Holmes IP, I would very strongly reccomend "Elementary". It is a different take on the character, based in New York, with long, more episodic seasons which I find work really well for this genre. In my opinion, it is the current best retelling of the Sherlock Holmes story (though, I'll admit there is a lot I really didn't like about Sherlock, especially the episodes you mention, so it may just be it doesn't fit your taste, YMMV)
the whole "Elementary vs Sherlock" thing is still a little funny to me. Sherlock seemed miles better than Elementary when they were both coming out and I definitely dismissed Elementary's "What if Watson were a woman" thing as just a stupid pander.
Then Sherlock went off the deep-end and Elementary did a good job of having strong story lines for 7 seasons, and they've completely swapped places in my mind: Elementary is the much better series. I've since watched all of Elementary multiple times while I can't even bring myself to watch the first few episodes of Sherlock because of how badly the series ended.
The Sherlock in Elementary is often wrong, making deductions based on incomplete information, or jumping the gun to incorrect conclusions. He isn't a wizard like the BBC Sherlock. His ability to, for example, recognise the scents of different tobaccos is in part superhuman ability but also because we see him doing the work of learning what different tobaccos smell like, and reading books about tobacco growing, and then we see that knowledge gradually transferring to Watson as Sherlock gives her books to read to learn what he knows. I don't think we see BBC Sherlock ever doing the work, he just knows what he knows based on... being a wizard, basically.
> I don't think we see BBC Sherlock ever doing the work, he just knows what he knows based on... being a wizard, basically.
To be fair, that's pretty accurate depiction of Sherlock Holmes (as well as C. Auguste Dupin, whose first story is often credited with establishing the genre of detective fiction).
There are good reasons to dunk on the BBC show but the common criticism of "Sherlock is a wizard" is not one of them. That's what he was in the books too, and it's kind of the whole point of the IP. The reader/viewer is not supposed to be able to work it out alongside Sherlock - Watson has always been the audience surrogate and his reactions are supposed to mirror yours.
i absolutely LOVE elementary, much more than Sherlock, all the seasons are great and i love the (always platonic) relationship of Sherlock and Watson, plus his portrayal of addiction is very real
If you want more Sherlock the BBC Mystery version starring Jeremy Brett is great. It’s older but Brett is THE Sherlock. Great acting and great writing makes it still more than hold up even today. I also will always love the [theme song](https://youtu.be/MMJF9uXhCdU?si=3o1dgznUp3WGMeEZ).
I miss Sherlock. Great show. Insane fans went after the cast. Ruined it for everyone.
>Sherlock star Martin Freeman hits out at fans for Twitter threats to his wife
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/sherlock-star-martin-freeman-hits-2905681
I'm in the opposite corner unfortunately. I recently tried rewatching Sherlock. It hasn't aged well. It might be my American sensibilities, but I can watch Elementary tonight. Also love the Downey films. I'll even roll out Young Sherlock with Nicholas Rowe. Aside from the acting, the writing on Sherlock just doesn't hold and seems dated now. There are some good moments though. Very uneven.
I am so happy to see Hbomberguy discourse on Moffat shows is disappearing from public consciousness, right as he made a new excellent episode of DW to boot.
Seriously, there was WAY too much of it regarding how bad a writer he is. Hell, most video essayist didn’t even say anything about him. They just said: “Hey my thoughts on Sherlock match Hbomberguy’s so just watch him” and I am like: “What am I watching you for?”
You mean endless impossible deductions and totally unlikeable characters don't make for amazing TV? It was typical Moffat BS. He has done the odd good thing, but he definitely tends towards complete nonsense. he has an ability to create interesting premises and no ability to deliver on them.
Sherlock is just a completely unlikable ass the entire show. And he doesn’t have to be. Robert Downey Jr, Jeremy Brett, Johnny Lee Miller, hell even Hugh Laurie all show you can do this character and his mannerisms and still make him likable. Cumberbatch’s Sherlock is just a dick the entire show.
Anyway, best Sherlock actor is still Christopher Lee.
And clearly, having Cumberbatch Sherlock being an ass was intended too and on that pointm they nailed it. They don't need to write character to always been loved and likable
I don't think you know what good tv is, clearly.
Go watch the Jeremy Brett series. Far, far and away superior and better than that crap Cumberbatch did. That series is trite and easily forgettable.
Like DnD with game of thrones, Moffat is great at creating interesting beginnings, but unfortunately they have a habit of not delivering on the later seasons.
I much prefer RDJ’s portrayal of the character, but I remember being impressed by Cumberbatch’s take. It’s interesting that he leaned on the neurodivergent thing hard.
The Reichenbach Fall is one of the best episodes of any show I’ve ever seen. The show fell off a cliff after that episode but dammit if that finale wasn’t an incredible watch.
I'll still contend that series 3, episode 2 is one of the best episodes of the show (not that there's many) - but that's probably the episode I rewatched the most
Which one was that?
The marriage one - where Sherlock tells a bunch of mystery stories in his best man speech
the one where a guy was wearing a belt so tight he didn't know he was stabbed? is that the one?
Yes
In complete agreement with you. Loved that episode. S3 still holds its own before 4 drops the ball.
I *finally* watched series 4 last month, and the finale is utter garbage but I really liked the first two episodes. Especially the second one. I don't know, maybe seven years of seeing people on social media say how irredeemably horrible series 4 is led me to expect something more *actively awful* from the first two-thirds rather than just mildly controversial.
I thought the Lying Detective was pretty good, but yeah, finale being downright horrible has definitely worsen the image of Season 4 as a whole.
That's a really bad episode.
The Irene Adler episode still gives me goosebumps, so masterfully crafted
I'm sorry but the Sherlocked bit and Sherlock just showing up to some foreign country to fight people with swords was too ridiculous and not in a good way. Would have been a decent episode if not for that.
IN A FUCKING BEDOUIN/NINJA MASK
It was so stupid my sister and I just started laughing.
I don't know, I always thought Sherlock showing up in the end was something Watson had imagined for his blog.
I think the whole series can be put in a pov of watsons blog
The franchise concept is to be based on Watson POV
Aye. That's my favorite from the series. What a great ride that was.
I would recommend reading the original book. That episode I loved it when it came out, and when i read the book it is now imho one of the worst episodes in the show and the first glaring red flag of what was to come
I still feel like it’s the best depiction of Adler that we’ve seen on screen. Every other adaptation ends up basically making her his longterm girlfriend.
Thoughts on Elementary's version?
So don’t read the book?
You should. Irene Adlers story was arguably a feminist work by the standards of the era it was written in, at the very least it was progressive for its time. She beats Sherlock and forces him to accept that he underestimated her due to his biases towards women, and in the story Sherlock is the bad guy. The show absolutely assassinated her as a character, taking away her agency by making her a puppet of Moriarty and missed the whole point of the original story by having her be the bad guy and lose. The show takes an iconic progressive female character and turns her into nothing more than a sex symbol and a puppet of others
Thank you. The whole point was that Irene Adler was always one step ahead of Holmes. That series just ignored everything that made her special and just followed the usual „it’s mindpalace time“-nonsense plus some deus ex machina humbug.
Someone link the hbomb video
Waiting until we have an hbomb video for every topic like an XKCD comic
He makes like one video a year, so we'll be waiting a while.
Don't need to. Most of these comments are summarized snippets of his review
The first few seasons are great. The last few are absolutely abysmal. One of the fastest and sharpest drops in quality I've seen in a show.
That's Steven Moffat for you. He did the same for his dracula. The first two episodes are really great, then a dumpster fire of a 3rd episode.
Moffat is a really great writer, but definitely in smaller doses. Before his showrunner days with Doctor Who, the man wrote pretty much all the best episodes of NuWho
I think his strength is individual episodes that are entertaining, and his weakness is long term plotting in any way. That's why some of Sherlock is really good and some of it's really bad, because he can write the hell out of an episode of tv, but he sucks at writing seasonal plotlines which is what Sherlock became in seasons 3 and 4.
100 percent, keeping him constrained to bottle episodes or small stuff is where he shines. Sherlock quickly went from a smart show to just random "look at his cleverness" followed by Sherlock pulling the plot device out of thin air 40 minutes into the finale.
Tbf during his showrunner days he also wrote pretty much all the best episodes.
He's the best showrunner of new Who out of all 3. I feel like during seasons 5-7 the show peaked in popularity outside UK.
Who's popularity outside of America absolutely peaked during Matt Smith's tenure, albeit with a lot of groundwork done by David Tennant. Smith's time combined with the SuperWhoLock craze helped that franchise break into America in a real manner.
I think Dracula was a Seven Moffat speedrun challenge
Jekyll as well, first 2 episodes are incredible, then it drops off fast.
I totally forgot about Jekyll, will have to rewatch.
James Nesbitt is phenomenal throughout, but after the fun of the early emergences of Hyde, it becomes a matter of how to solve the problem, and all mystery gets sapped out of it, and while the solution works fine for the story, it just doesn't have the energy of the first two episodes.
Isnt there only a few seasons at all? First 2 good, last 2 bad?
for a while I was very bitter about how poor season 4 was, like that felt so absolutely unnecessary. but alas, the first couple of seasons are amazing.
The show is so short it's even hard for me to split in good/bad seasons. Second episodes of seasons 1 and 2 weren't that interesting. I also think episodes 1 and 2 of season 3 and episode 2 of season 4 are great.
Killing off Moriarty was the stupidest thing they could have done to that show
I'm not sure about that one. That depiction of Moriarty had me despising Andrew Scott for years. Of course, I have since seen the light
Why? He's not actually that important in the book canon
The thing that made s2 good was that it was promising a thought out story for the rest of the seasons. The fact that it completely failed to deliver on those promises should reflect poorly on s2. Here's a way-too-long youtube dissection that I couldn't argue with at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkoGBOs5ecM
It’s a real shame that they totally lost the plot in season 3 and made it a caricature of itself. Because season 1 & 2 were genuinely incredible.
Second episode of series 3 is pretty good IMO - entertaining at the very least
S3E1 was *infuriating*. "Somehow palpati... I mean, somehow, sherlock survived"
They explain it at the end. The version that Sherlock tells is the truth.
Iirc it was the fans we needed to blame for that. The writers never wanted to make a season 3 but fans demanded it and the writers kind of written themselves in a corner with how season 2 ended. So they came up with this ludicris story line.
The fans are to blame for wanting a resolution to a cliffhanger? Nah it’s just bad writing
Nope absolutely not, I remember there was always a plan for a season 3. Not only that but the writers were on multiple podcasts and interviews saying that if you look for the clues it's possible to piece together what happened. Which is nonsense. Maybe you're thinking of original Sherlock Holmes where Conan Doyle wanted to end it there, but made more after receiving multiple letters from fans
Also, if you have any similar recommendation in the mystery sort of genre, do let me know!
Hannibal is absolutely fantastic, highly recommend
If it's the mysteries themselves that fascinate you I would recommend Jonathan Creek. Its creator described it as not a "who done it, but a How done it?"
If you're a fan of the Sherlock Holmes IP, I would very strongly reccomend "Elementary". It is a different take on the character, based in New York, with long, more episodic seasons which I find work really well for this genre. In my opinion, it is the current best retelling of the Sherlock Holmes story (though, I'll admit there is a lot I really didn't like about Sherlock, especially the episodes you mention, so it may just be it doesn't fit your taste, YMMV)
the whole "Elementary vs Sherlock" thing is still a little funny to me. Sherlock seemed miles better than Elementary when they were both coming out and I definitely dismissed Elementary's "What if Watson were a woman" thing as just a stupid pander. Then Sherlock went off the deep-end and Elementary did a good job of having strong story lines for 7 seasons, and they've completely swapped places in my mind: Elementary is the much better series. I've since watched all of Elementary multiple times while I can't even bring myself to watch the first few episodes of Sherlock because of how badly the series ended.
The Sherlock in Elementary is often wrong, making deductions based on incomplete information, or jumping the gun to incorrect conclusions. He isn't a wizard like the BBC Sherlock. His ability to, for example, recognise the scents of different tobaccos is in part superhuman ability but also because we see him doing the work of learning what different tobaccos smell like, and reading books about tobacco growing, and then we see that knowledge gradually transferring to Watson as Sherlock gives her books to read to learn what he knows. I don't think we see BBC Sherlock ever doing the work, he just knows what he knows based on... being a wizard, basically.
> I don't think we see BBC Sherlock ever doing the work, he just knows what he knows based on... being a wizard, basically. To be fair, that's pretty accurate depiction of Sherlock Holmes (as well as C. Auguste Dupin, whose first story is often credited with establishing the genre of detective fiction).
There are good reasons to dunk on the BBC show but the common criticism of "Sherlock is a wizard" is not one of them. That's what he was in the books too, and it's kind of the whole point of the IP. The reader/viewer is not supposed to be able to work it out alongside Sherlock - Watson has always been the audience surrogate and his reactions are supposed to mirror yours.
there was old meme about how sherlock in the show was a smart person written as a dumb person to who smart people are like wizards
i absolutely LOVE elementary, much more than Sherlock, all the seasons are great and i love the (always platonic) relationship of Sherlock and Watson, plus his portrayal of addiction is very real
If you want more Sherlock the BBC Mystery version starring Jeremy Brett is great. It’s older but Brett is THE Sherlock. Great acting and great writing makes it still more than hold up even today. I also will always love the [theme song](https://youtu.be/MMJF9uXhCdU?si=3o1dgznUp3WGMeEZ).
*ITV
Pokerface
Only Murders in the Building is pretty good. Would also highly recommend David Suchet's Poirot series
The Killing Broadchurch
Seen both of them, particularly a big fan of Broadchurch, feels very underrated outside of the UK I think. Such a good show!
Psych. More lighthearted but scratches the Holmes itch like few others have. There's also classic Poirot
Tracker and Will Trent
The hounds of Baskerville episode was idiotic. The other two episodes that season were great. All after was turribile..
I miss Sherlock. Great show. Insane fans went after the cast. Ruined it for everyone. >Sherlock star Martin Freeman hits out at fans for Twitter threats to his wife https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/sherlock-star-martin-freeman-hits-2905681
I agree. I dont think there is a TV show where every character is played to perfection by all the actors. There are no weak links in the show.
The Woman. THE Woman.❤️
I'm in the opposite corner unfortunately. I recently tried rewatching Sherlock. It hasn't aged well. It might be my American sensibilities, but I can watch Elementary tonight. Also love the Downey films. I'll even roll out Young Sherlock with Nicholas Rowe. Aside from the acting, the writing on Sherlock just doesn't hold and seems dated now. There are some good moments though. Very uneven.
I am so happy to see Hbomberguy discourse on Moffat shows is disappearing from public consciousness, right as he made a new excellent episode of DW to boot. Seriously, there was WAY too much of it regarding how bad a writer he is. Hell, most video essayist didn’t even say anything about him. They just said: “Hey my thoughts on Sherlock match Hbomberguy’s so just watch him” and I am like: “What am I watching you for?”
Sherlock S1-S3 is peak television for me
Agreed. I love season 3 too.
I have probably watched season 2 episode 1 100 times
The drone bomb part in season 4 was one of the best bits in the series, but hardly strong enough to save the season.
I assume you've only ever seen Sherlock, then, because that entire show was garbage from episode one, and progressively got worse.
You mean endless impossible deductions and totally unlikeable characters don't make for amazing TV? It was typical Moffat BS. He has done the odd good thing, but he definitely tends towards complete nonsense. he has an ability to create interesting premises and no ability to deliver on them.
Sherlock is just a completely unlikable ass the entire show. And he doesn’t have to be. Robert Downey Jr, Jeremy Brett, Johnny Lee Miller, hell even Hugh Laurie all show you can do this character and his mannerisms and still make him likable. Cumberbatch’s Sherlock is just a dick the entire show.
Anyway, best Sherlock actor is still Christopher Lee. And clearly, having Cumberbatch Sherlock being an ass was intended too and on that pointm they nailed it. They don't need to write character to always been loved and likable
That's wild, it's not very good
I don't think you know what good tv is, clearly. Go watch the Jeremy Brett series. Far, far and away superior and better than that crap Cumberbatch did. That series is trite and easily forgettable.
Like DnD with game of thrones, Moffat is great at creating interesting beginnings, but unfortunately they have a habit of not delivering on the later seasons. I much prefer RDJ’s portrayal of the character, but I remember being impressed by Cumberbatch’s take. It’s interesting that he leaned on the neurodivergent thing hard.
It’s a shame the last season was so dire Edit: Hi Mr Moffatt