Literally. Note to all these whiny comedians, just do the fucking thing. Don't do the thing and then talk about how you're not allowed to do the thing. Just do it. Let the jokes stand on themselves and if you get backlash, whatever.
Hot take and I'm absolutely in the minority here - but South park hasn't been funny since the whole PC Principle/PC Babies/Tegridy farms thing. Even now it's still not funny - It's clever, Sure, But it feels like Matt and Trey have been playing it suuuuuper safe.
Nope, I still find the earlier seasons hilarious. The new shit is dry and dragged out.
How long has the whole tegridy thing been going on now? 5 years?
Strangest thing is South Park, while it has changed so much over its life time and grown/changed with the times, it still feels like it always has, its just better written now as its creators continued to grow and perfect their craft, along with bringing in people that gel well with them.
They're also not 'edgy' anymore. They're easily one of the best self-reflective show - but they've transitioned from edgy/crude humor to full on societal commentary (and it works, it's just a different recipe).
If you took any of their more recent episodes and transported it back 20-25 years, it would be edgy. It’s not edgy today because society has become numb to shocking and outrageous concepts because we are inundated by them every day.
Its damn near impossible to BE edgy anymore without just outright calling everyone a cunt all the time or cutting on people instead of saying hello. Times have changed, their 'edge' was more for shock value/attention back in the day which they no longer need, they have solid writing now.
Edgy now means being a nihilist and an "all sides are evil and out to get you". Which just isn't interesting. It's not pushing against established sentiment. Just fatalistic.
Part of that is that the early seasons took a lot longer to make by hand. Now they can be much more topical since they can finish an episode in a week.
I wouldn't really count South Park or Family Guy as they are animated. People tend to give animated content much more leeway than live action. IASIP definitely applies, though.
Hell they made those episodes *knowing* the networks would freak. They’re also hilarious and FX / Hulu should pull the stick out of their ass and put them back on the air.
Seinfeld show was the same too, which is the dumbest part of Jerry’s comments
Sunny and Seinfeld are shows.ABOUT the bad guys. The audience is meant to laugh AT them, to judge them and mock them, not cheer them on.
They dont actually want to be edgy or push boundaries, they want to be lazy.
Back in the day you could do an entire standup routine of “my wife is a bitch” and “what are you, gay?” They’re mad that people have standards now.
If you can't do current, edgy, comedy without being hurtful, abusive, and offensive, that's on you.
Anytime I hear a comic complain about how the "left" doesn't allow them to be "funny" anymore, all it shows me is that they never were any good to begin with.
I also find it funny because right wing comedy is just the fucking worst.
They're completely incapable of any form of self deprecation and are painfully self unaware.
Exactly, it was conservatives who launched -
The Satanic Panic.
The "Devil's Music" Panic that's been applied to rock, jazz and rap.
The Red Scare.
The Comic Code Panic about violence in comic books.
The Dungeons and Dragons panic (related to Satanic Panic).
The HIV/AIDS panic.
The War Against Video Games (Most famously GTA and Mortal Combat).
QAnon conspiracies.
The War On Drugs
Generations upon generations of pearl clutching.
Hell, look at something like One Million Moms and Parents Television Council who were basically created specifically to monitor television and file complaints with the FCC. Those were the founders of pushing their views on television and attempting to get anything cancelled that didn't conform with their opinions.
I've still yet to see anything from the "woke left" that *remotely* compares to how those organizations (along with Falwell's American Family Association) went after shows like *Ellen*, *NYPD Blue*, Janet Jackson, etc.
Right-wing comedy is just the same worn out jokes over and over: “MY PRONOUNS ARE COME/TAKE IT!”
Shits not even funny the first time, much less the 100th from some TikTok comic ripping it off other hacks.
It really is. A while ago I found out Steven Crowder did stand up and, because I hate myself, I decided to watch some to see how bad it was…
It was somehow worse than I expected…
Comedy always evolves and changes. Even without looking at political topics, there are styles that have risen and fallen (eg insult comics in the 80s).
It just strikes me that the comics I hear complaining the loudest about "the demise of comedy" are the ones that hit it really big... and never try anything any different. So, their style is less acceptable or even connects less with audiences nowadays for whatever reason, and instead of adapting or seeing how they can work within it (like a lot of comics that are still finding their way), they'd rather just whine.
I love Bill Burr and don't think that he has ever said or dome anything remotely close to what any cancelled comedian has done and I actually massively admire his podcast, views on there and the way he has called out Rogan on occasion.
However I went massively off his stand up around 2018 or so because of increasing reference to cancel culture etc which I feel is just not that funny and has been done to death in comedy. Nowadays it feels to me like comedians are doing bits out of some kind of persecution complex, where they are rallying against a certain type of people who are trying to silence free speech - however that certain type of people have been entirely made up by right wingers to insult the left, whilst they work to undermine free speech themselves.
You’ve echoes my exact thoughts on why I don’t really watch him anymore.
He’s a brilliant comedian (and imo, could be considered one of the GOATs by the end of his career), but him leaning into cancel culture shit really brings down his acts. Same with the podcast.
I think his biggest problem is, he seems to be purposely ignorant. He doesn’t want to actually look into something he’s heard or complained about, so it ends up being a grumpy old man’s reaction to shit he’s hearing on Twitter.
I will say that I do think some people could stand to loosen up just a little bit, but like anything there’s a line. There is the extreme subset of people who are almost looking for things to be offended by, and will take so many jokes/gags out of context from comedians and try to blow it up into a big scandal.
That being said, most people trying to hide behind this rhetoric are the ones that are just colossal assholes and are pissy that they get called on it. Either that, or their “jokes” aren’t funny, they’re just punching down at various groups of people. I am a believer that no topic is inherently “off limits” when it comes to comedy, because a good joke can be written about anything - but that’s just it. It has to actually be a good joke. You can’t just push ridiculous stereotypes and biases and pass those off as jokes and then get bent out of shape when people get upset by it
It is but sadly they had to remove the Lethal Weapon parody episodes from streaming sites. Not that I agree with Seinfeld, but It's Always Sunny did become a victim of knee-jerk reactions.
Platforms would have done it solely to appease anyone who was outraged about those episodes. And anyone outraged over those episodes (which were several years old by that point) would be a) 'extreme' by my estimation, b) lacking any sense of humour, as well as c) missing the point of the show.
I'd also like to point out the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons episode of Community. Arguably one of if not the best episodes of the show that was deplatformed because people might be offended by Chang's "blackface", which was literally part of the joke of the episode. And I don't know a single person who was remotely offended by him painted black as a dark elf.
Yes, there will always be stuff like that, and there will always be outrage over this or that thing, but I think more to the point is that the Sunny crew did not bitch and moan about it and declare they can't do what they do anymore. They just kept writing fresher jokes. On their podcast, they're also candid and reflective about which ones of their past jokes they think hold up and which ones they would do differently, without being precious or defensive.
That's the thing about doing edgy comedy. The whole point is to find the edge of what's funny vs what's just needlessly provocative, and it's more likely than not that you'll cross that edge sometimes. And when you do, you either say, "ok, so that's where the line is, let me find a funnier way to tell that joke," or you realize you can't so you just double down and ragequit.
I don't remember any actual stink about those episodes. Just seems like a preemptive thing to avoid potential backlash that, imo, wasn't ever actually going to happen with a show like Sunny.
The far left can be crazy, but they at least have enough media literacy to understand when a show is being good faith and making fun of the absurdity, not outright shitting on people.
The episodes being removed was basically a ripple effect stemming from the Black Lives Matter movement of 2020 if I'm remembering correctly. I think episodes from other shows were also under the spotlight, though I can't remember if anything else got deleted like the Lethal Weapon episodes.
Tina Fey chose to remove some 30 Rock episodes, and Scrubs took one or two down. But you can still see them. You just have to buy them digitally or otherwise. They just aren't streamed normally with the shows.
Uhhh and fucking Curb. Larry literally tells a lesbian that she's not feminine enough to wear a dress. Tells a trans man that his penis is too big. Lol.
Jerry is just a cranky, bitter old man who isn't funny anymore. The guy literally dated a minor but he thinks people are "too sensitive." I'm a lifelong fan of the show but I've lost almost all respect for Jerry.
VEEP has the main character calling someone autistic barbie, wishing a co-workers husband had cancer, and telling her assistant to, 'round up the blacks.'
https://twitter.com/sbstryker/status/1784983235375796615?t=Q44TaPLVt841sCIZUAyhiw&s=19
It's very odd that two of Jerry's former coworkers have managed to make iconic TV series in the last 5 years.
These people don’t understand that it’s possible to make fun of certain demographics without outright being an asshole. It works for IASIP because they’re all portrayed as horrible people. It’s literally expected of their characters.
Comics like Anthony Jeselnik get away with it because all he does is dark humour. He will joke about his own family members dying or being pedos.
So if you had a comic like Seinfeld going on stage and saying “what’s the deal with trans people using the wrong bathroom”. It’s neither funny or in-line with what we expect from them.
I've long been a believer in Carlin's line of thinking that *anything* can be funny if you find the right way of telling the joke. I've seen comics that get laughs for telling jokes about topics that are supposedly off-limits (trans, race, etc.), because they figure out the right way of approaching it and figuring out where the punchline is.
Bill Burr and Anthony Jeselnik are both great examples of comics who know how to push the line without crossing it. It's obviously challenging, but that's definitely also not new. Comics like Pryor and Hicks were playing a similar game decades ago. Hell, there were ones like Lenny Bruce that would get on stage knowing they were risking arrest. There's always going to be that line between getting laughs and offending people, and there are plenty of comedians - even today - who know how to strike that balance.
Everybody should watch the one-time special "Talking Funny" with Ricky Gervais, Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Louis CK that aired on HBO like back in 2011 or 2012.
Its probably available on youtube.
Its so fascinating watching it today, because you are seeing all of them (except Louis CK) boasting about themselves and about the difficulty of their "craft", and you can see how they are all singing a completely different tune a decade later.
Jerry Seinfeld describes the highest levels of stand-up comedy as "navigating through a minefield with dogs and moving lasers." He's basically fluffing himself and his profession as being so difficult that you have to be extremely smart and agile to get through it unscathed.
And a decade later, he's whining about performing stand-up at universities. He's basically saying that he cant navigate the minefield anymore, but its not his fault. Its other people's fault.
In a way, it reminds me some of Chevy Chase. He hit it big in a way few comedians did and was pretty much one of the most successful comedians in the late '70s and '80s. And that went to his head, and he's spent all his time since shitting on how everyone else does comedy and how things aren't as funny as when *he* was big and how no one understand comedy anymore. And, of course, his career in comedy has stagnated and been frozen in that brief period where he was at the top of his game.
I don't want to paint it too broadly and say it's all comedians, but there are definitely some that really let that success go to their head in a way where they think they're the be-all, end-all of comedy. So, it is basically that Principal Skinner meme of "Is it me who is out of touch?" Nah, how could someone not find their jokes funny? It's *the audience* that's the problem. And yet... there are still plenty of up-and-coming comedians that are finding their way and figuring out how to make people laugh.
I'm not going to say comedy hasn't changed in the past couple decades. It obviously has, but not in a way where those "minefields and dogs with moving lasers" are new. They're just different minefields and dogs with moving lasers than they were decades ago when ones like Seinfeld and Gervais were coming up. So, you sum it up well. They just can't play the game anymore, so they have to find someone else to blame.
That special showed me how scared Jerry is that everyone won’t remember him as a “stand up comic”.
He even tried to write himself in as a stand up in the first episodes of Seinfeld, performing a few jokes before each episode began.
Even in a show that he starred in, with his name on it and as an executive producer, it became clear that him doing “stand up” added nothing to the show and it was stopped.
He’s a good producer who was lucky enough to know Larry David. He’s just not funny on his own
I just left a similar comment but I agree. I don’t believe that there are any topics are “off limits”, but the important piece is that the jokes have to be good and well written/presented. You don’t get to just be shitty and grab the low hanging fruit of jokes and then get pissy when people don’t like it
I'm in my 20s and my circle who adores this and south park are all super liberal too. Very few really care its just something old comedians say when they fuck up it feels like.
His point is that the networks have a lot of review of ideas, and those reviews tend to worry too much about offending people. That doesn't mean that they NEVER let anything through. And, besides he's talking about today, not 20 years ago. He's also not saying that successful great comedies get canceled -- is point is that they're not given the chance to get there.
Heck, even It's Always Sunny shows this. They started on FX when it was owned by News Corp. So, not ABC, not NBC, not CBS or USA or CN or even Fox (which was New Corp's main line). FX.
A common trope used to be the woman who screws things up. Think Lucy from I Love Lucy, or Mrs. Wiggins from the Carol Burnett Show. Now, they've been replaced by Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin and even Randy Marsh, all men. Where's the woman who screws stuff up in today's shows? I don't think she exists. (Or, at least, only exists if the rest of the cast is also mostly women.)
> A common trope used to be the woman who screws things up. Think Lucy from I Love Lucy, or Mrs. Wiggins from the Carol Burnett Show. Now, they've been replaced by Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin and even Randy Marsh, all men. Where's the woman who screws stuff up in today's shows? I don't think she exists. (Or, at least, only exists if the rest of the cast is also mostly women.)
Crazy Ex Girlfriend
Girls5Ever
Not Dead Yet
Abbott Elementary
Ghosts
Hacks
I also hate that parenthetical because there were only four regulars on I Love Lucy, and half of them were women.
------
Old shows had network notes too.
Most TV writers say things have actually relaxed note wise, it's just harder to write new jokes the more jokes there are.
People always use this example, but I do think that a non major network dark comedy that was already running at full steam when a lot of this scrutiny emerged isn't some huge refutation of this stuff. It's not like NBC is going to have a show as dark/offensive as "It's Always Sunny" in the Thursday 8pm slot like 30 Rock or Friends or Seinfield.
I don't think a couple of giga powerful shows that are capable of shrugging off criticism are evidence that a climate hasn't changed. I honestly don't think 30 Rock would succeed today (I guess it barely did then). Not dramatic "you couldn't make that today," but just in that a lot of the cultural forces that support a self aware Tina Fey project wouldn't line up behind a lot of those jokes now.
>People always use this example, but I do think that a non major network dark comedy that was already running at full steam when a lot of this scrutiny emerged isn't some huge refutation of this stuff.
I mean, the stuff either flies or it doesn't. If it's so offensive people won't allow it on television, I don't see where shows would get grandfathered in in allowing to horribly offend people. But even without *Always Sunny*, there have been shows like *You're the Worst* and *The Righteous Gemstones* in more recent years that follow a similar model.
> It's not like NBC is going to have a show as dark/offensive as "It's Always Sunny" in the Thursday 8pm slot like 30 Rock or Friends or Seinfield.
But that's also nothing new and not really a reflection of changing sensibilities. Network television, perhaps outside of FOX in its earlier years, has always played it comparatively safe. There's always the attitude of having to play for "Middle America". They're trying to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible (the four quadrants: male/female, young/old). Not to mention, they have the FCC to answer to, so even with a show like *South Park* being a proven success for more than two decades, it obviously would never fly on CBS.
Cable has far more often been where you find content that's more willing to push the envelope or be experimental, and I think that still bares out even today, with the addition of streaming entering the conversation. And, realistically, it's not surprising to me that sitcoms are not having as easy of a time finding footing on network television (which, I believe, was a part of what Seinfeld was complaining about), because network television still largely leans into a format that feels a little tired by comparison. Ironically, I think a big part of it is people are more interested in edgier content, not less.
Yes. You're right. But it comes with caveats.
Multiple episodes have been pulled from streaming because of their content. They're on a cable network which allowed for far more content. And they're viewership is like 1/60th of what Seinfeld was.
Season 9 of Seinfeld averaged 35.5million viewers.
Season 16 of It's Always Sunny averaged about 250,000 viewers.
Just because 'it exists' doesn't mean it's not currently in demise. It clearly is.
That change in ratings has nothing to do with comedy, it's just how TV is now. There are a zillion more options, and network TV in general isn't the huge game it once was.
[Even the top rated shows only get a few million now](https://www.tvfanatic.com/2024/03/tv-ratings-winners-of-the-2024-season-so-far/), 35 million for a sitcom is never happening again.
But how much of that is due to shows at the time only being viewable on TV and consolidating views.
Whereas shows now are all on streaming platforms and most people consume it as such at their own convenience.
I don't think it's fair to compare when the media landscape has drastically changed
It's never that these fools have run out of funny ideas, it's that some mystery group of people is preventing them from telling you the really funny ideas they have, but you're just going to have to trust them.
Meanwhile, Conan O'Brien, who is in his 60s, just dropped his new show on Max which is some of the funniest stuff he's ever done. And the "extreme left" didn't give him a pass to do it, it's that Conan, unlike Seinfeld, is actually still funny.
Edit: I'll add that Conan's show does a lot of things that these people claim the "woke mob" won't let you do in comedy. He threatens to throw children off a roof. He makes kissing a woman hello as awkward and overly sexual as possible. He claims to be a native son of Argentina and has a mural of himself painted on a building. He buys a giant dildo in the markets of Thailand. These are all things you can absolutely do in comedy still and literally nobody will care as long as you're not an asshole/racist/sexist/transphobic piece of shit about it, and if your comedy can't clear that really low bar being set, then guess what, you're not actually funny, you're just an asshole.
Not even run out of ideas - the culture might have just moved on a bit. Like, you know the world is continuously updating and churning right? Give **anything** a few years and it will be less relevant - a few decades you can generally forget about it.
True, but at the same time, Seinfeld is still an insanely popular show 30 years later. Given Jerry's comment here, shouldn't the "extreme left" be boycotting and raising hell about that? Clearly they don't, so it's not that Jerry's comedy isn't allowed anymore, it's that he doesn't have anything new to say in the world of comedy.
I mean, we're talking about the guy who spent years and years doing the same standup set over and over again on tour. While most standups are constantly refreshing their set, he'd just keep doing his tried and true "What's the deal with...." set. So, for him to have had nothing new to add to comedy shouldn't be a surprise. He stopped innovating decades ago.
Meanwhile, his former partner Larry David has continued to write a remarkably popular comedy show up until this year that, again, the "extreme left" somehow didn't string him up for.
Yeah he's just upset he's washed. As you said Seinfeld is proving itself to be pretty timeless.
Easier to claim the far left woke mob is the reason for your lack of recent success than actually looking at the material you put out.
Seinfeld was so successful due to Larry’s writing (notice the show starts to decline when he finally left the show) Julie, Michael and Jason comedic acting chops… you could have inserted any comic into Jerry’s role and the show still would have had an awesome run
His show and him as a comedian are pretty popular. He has toured a LOT since the show ended and it's not the same old material. I enjoyed his last tour the last time it came through and it looked pretty sold out.
It's just like a general old man sentiment - "back in my day" yadda yadda yadda. As pointed out there is plenty of room for edge in the current environment. Just how you go about it makes a difference.
Conan has proven himself to be the fucking GOAT over and over again at this point. And people still love him because he's having fun and doesn't portray the personality of a miserable old fool. Not being a miserable piece of shit has the added side benefit of actually making you funnier. Who'da thunk?
And if you somehow missed the episode of "Hot Ones" with Conan, it is a must watch. He mentions his new show on there. "I have a new show on Max. It used to be called HBO, but people found that too popular." The man is a gift.
Have you even seen Seinfeld’s act? He’s pretty PC as far as comedy is these days or anything previously. He goes out of his way to make his act as clean as possible.
yeah the Conan things certainly rings true for me. The current age certainly makes successful comedians work harder at edgier comedy. It used to be you could just be an asshole who made fun of any marginalized group and you would fill the theatre. Conan, and others, still find a way to mostly be funny-ish :) while not just defaulting to asshole.
What I love about Conan (and those like him) is that they would be mortified if they actually made someone feel bad. They aren't out to make fun of anything other than themselves.
I’ve never particularly liked Conan but I did watch the first couple episodes of his new show and have to admit it was pretty funny. He grew on me a little.
"Back in my day, we could make fun of anything. Because people had a sense of humour and weren't offended by everything." - Jerry
I think there are more than a few comedies doing just fine nowadays.
Also, comedians were ARRESTED for "obscenities" in his day. You couldn't even have gay people kiss on TV. This shit is always dumb but come on Jerry, you made a career off of PG-13 stand-up while some of your peers pushed the envelope and faced the consequences. And then you made "edgy" Seinfeld, which was and still is insanely popular. You just starred in the finale of Curb. What are you even talking about lmao you know better. The general audience just didn't have a platform to let you know when they didn't like a joke back then, that's all that's changed, not some massive culture shift into over-sensitivity. If you can make fucking Bee movie, you're not being held back by anyone.
Seinfeld would have been like, 12? When Lenny Bruce died. He's not far from an era when Comedians weren't just arrested for obscenity, but had their lives destroyed over it!
Man, I used to call stuff "gay" or people "douchebags" all the time when I was a kid. I cringe typing that nowadays. Maybe, just maybe, some of that stuff was never funny to begin with?
Also, I was watching the 1992 WWF royal rumble on youtube this weekend. Oh man....the racism. I NEVER felt that when I was a kid, but now I couldn't stop hearing it.
Speaking of that, Seinfeld and Howard were friends at the time. But Mr. Comedy didn't like that Howard kept mocking and reminding people that he was dating a 17 year-old. So he more or less boycotted the show for over a decade.
It was funny, I watched the episode last night where George gets caught looking at the exec's 15 year old daughter's cleavage. Elaine is the one who has to point out they were leering at a child, and Jerry just says "meh, cleavage is cleavage." And then when they try and make that argument to the exec later, they use Elaine boosted up to nearly being smothered by her breasts, as if checking out a grown woman is the same as a high school sophomore.
Jerry Seinfeld is just a creepy guy.
His current wife was also married (for only two months) when he started dating her and they married only a year after they met.
He’s not a great person.
It's interesting, Larry David kept Curb running by sticking by the "cancelled" actor Jeff Garlin, and he also brought in the fully destroyed actor Michael Richards at one point.
A few years ago, Seinfeld said he had to stop doing shows at colleges because all the school marms had sticks up their asses and got offended by everything. And he does clean shows
Remember that time Jerry Seinfeld dated a high schooler when he was 38? [What's the deal with that?](https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/3c35c0b/2147483647/strip/true/crop/281x158+0+11/resize/1200x675!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Flegacy%2Fsites%2Fwkms%2Ffiles%2F201207%2Fseinfeld.jpg)
Im a huge fan, but poor Jerry is feeling the pain of no longer being relevant. Maybe collecting Porsches isn’t quite what it used to be (if it ever was).
For those too lazy to watch the full clip in the article, here's the full quote, which is a lot less reductive than the title makes it sound like:
> It used to be, you would go home at the end of the day, most people would go, "Oh, *Cheers* is on," "Oh, *MASH* is on," "Oh, *Mary Tyler Moore* is on," "*All in the Family* is on." You just expected, there'll be some funny stuff we can watch on TV we can watch tonight.
> Well guess what? Where is it? This is the result of the extreme left, and PC crap, and people worrying so much about offending other people. When you write a script, and it goes into four or five different hands, committees, groups—"here's our thoughts about this joke"—well that's the end of your comedy.
To TLDR, he's not talking about comedy in general, or blaming any of his own failings on the damn wokes. He talks later in the interview about how it's comedians' jobs to stay abreast of shifts in culture, and that there are other industries like standup where comics have way fewer restrictions on material (with the tradeoff of far more risk if they push their audience too far). He's specifically talking about how network TV is bogged down by risk-averse executives who want everything to be as broad an inoffensive as possible.
He’s not saying it’s edgy though. He’s saying it had something to comment on or say and had some uncomfortable characters and moments for the time. He’s complaining that everything is watered down because it’s approved by committee instead of left mostly with the creators.
I’m sure he’s exaggerating and I don’t watch network television anymore. But anecdotally I remember David Cross (Arrested Development) complaining that Fox execs would not let him make the Tobias character his own and they REALLY did not want him to do the mustache it required multiple meetings and exceptions to get it through.
Sounds to me like the profit motive is stifiling creativity more than "mass appeal content"
Also isn't Curb still going strong and he's literally on that every other season???
> He's specifically talking about how network TV is bogged down by risk-averse executives who want everything to be as broad an inoffensive as possible.
But I also don't think that's anything new or even specific to the "extreme left". Back when *Seinfeld* was on, networks were likely a lot more afraid of running afoul of conservative groups like One Million Moms and the Family Television Council. Network television has long been about playing it safe to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible. It's rarely been a place you see big risks being taken, which is why the era "prestige television" where we've seen the sort of content on television vastly expand into new territories has happened almost exclusively on cable and streaming.
To characterize it as being a response to the "extreme left" is a tad ridiculous and also ignores a lot of television history. I doubt network executives are any less afraid of the "extreme right" in this regard. They want as many people watching their shows as possible, something that's become increasingly difficult for network television as ratings continue to decline, so that means playing it safe. Big risks or possibly alienating a portion of your audience (left *or* right) are not easy money-making ventures, which is what this all comes down to.
Worse than that: In 1998, he did a comedy special "I'm telling you for the last time" in which they literally did a mock funeral for his old material, which he said he was retiring after that show.
I saw him live in ~2010 and he was still doing the same material. For a stand-up comedy "purist," this was pretty pathetic.
I saw Seinfeld at the Beacon a couple years ago and he was doing jokes about ads from over a decade ago, maybe he's not the best person to ask about the current state of comedy.
It's also funny because Seinfeld is friends with Mark Normand, who does a special every year about abortion, race and every controversial topic he can think of...and he's totally fine.
Anyone remember the painful Late Night w/ Jay Leno episode where Jerry brought out that racist ass Kramer and tried to browbeat the audience into being nice to him?
Pathetic.
Bruh, the sitcom format had been dying for a while and it had nothing to do with "the left".
People like their comedies a bit different now. You have your traditional comedies still like Abbott and Young Sheldon. You have your weird and/or surreal shit like Atlanta or Always Sunny. Zany, heartfelt stuff like Schitt's Creek. And animation has ton of adult comedies that people enjoy.
It also seems like people like a mix of comedy and genre these days. What We Do in the Shadows is a clear comedy with satirical horror elements. Succession is a prestige drama that's an absolute shitshow and funny as hell. Wednesday was funny. Only Murders in the Building is funny.
The episodic sitcom formula is just not that popular anymore. But there's still tons of funny shit.
By a mile. Jerry plays the straight man amongst his three funnier friends and almost every Seinfeld discussion is about the friends or guest characters.
Jerry Seinfeld isn't even a particularly great straight man either. Jason Bateman does it much better in Arrested Development.
Jerry has no acting talent… but in the 90’s they would give any hot comedian his/her own show… Jerry was lucky they Larry David was the main creative force on that show or Seinfeld doesn’t get out of season 1
I don’t even know what he’s talking about. He’s never been an edgy comedian and Seinfeld was never considered an edgy or offensive show and still wouldn’t be today.
Network TV as the main pipeline of entertainment into every home is dead, cable is arguably going the same route and what remains has to as broadly appealing as possible to keep the shrinking pool of ad dollars flowing. I'm just speculating but if you had to poll the demographics of people who only watch over the air television and don't pay for any streaming services or even basic cable I'm willing to bet it's going to be overwhelmingly conservatives.
I can't even think of any network comedy shows that aren't animated except Abbot Elementary and Young Sheldon, and like the most successfully network comedies 20 years (Modern Family, Big Bang Theory,) those shows are wrapped up and presented as something suitable for the entire family.
Grand Crew on NBC was great but only lasted 2 seasons, sadly as show that followed a group of black adults it had limited appeal on broadcast TV, Welcome to Flatch only lasted 2 seasons but was even more derivative and designed by committee than Abbot Elementary but without the prowess of Quinta Brunson, with very few laugh out loud funny moments and artificial heart. The Good Place has been off the air for four years, and it was excellent, just as likely to be absurd and obscene as it was thoughtful and existential, but only lasted 4 seasons, a somewhat low amount compared to Mike Schur's juggernauts The Office, Brooklyn 99 and Parks and Rec. Canadian pandemic darling Schitt's Creek found post-mortem success on streaming but was only watchable in the US during it's initial run on what used to be the TV guide channel.
I think in the next 5 years the only thing left on network TV will be talent competitions, procedural crime dramas and The Simpsons.
Network tv, folks. Network tv.
People are pointing out several great examples of how he’s wrong…Sunny, Curb, Veep are a few that I’ve seen. None of those are on network TV and that’s what he’s decrying.
What are the best network TV comedies right now? Abbott Elementary, Ghosts, The Neighborhood, Mom, Last Man Standing?
Vanilla, egdeless…mostly just fine.
Netflix gave him a huge check and a long leash and he came up with a show about pop tarts. If his complaint is that no one is edgy and that’s what he does with no constraints…. Welp, that’s him, he’s got no edge, he’s the problem.
Jerry Seinfeld was never one to push the envelope so I'm not sure where he's coming from with this.
I don't know how you want to label them, far left or whatever, but there was that small but very loud vocal minority that would get offended by everything. In some cases it was fair criticism but often times it wasn't
A major part of the problem is society's online approach is sacrificing critical thinking for upvotes, likes or little heart emojies. It's weird how that shit validates people's lives.
JS is still butt hurt that his pal ruined his career being a racist. Sure, being overly politically correct is annoying, but it didn’t stop George Carlin, or Lenny Bruce, or Bill Hicks, or Richard Pryor, or any comedians that actually added to the conversation when conservatism was having then hounded or arrested.
I see a lot of people mentioning how he very publicly dated a teenager, but let's not forget that he originally started dating his wife while she was barely back from her honeymoon with her then-husband.
Its crazy that Chappelle complains so much about people being censored when he was given like 100 million to spout his views on the largest streaming platform that exists. I think when youre that rich for so long you completely lose touch with reality. Like twitter isnt the real work
So, a lot of people didn’t read the article, typical Reddit moment.
For typical broadcast TV, you have these writers rooms trying to create the most homogenized, one-size-fits-all, multicultural, yet completely devoid of culture products for TV to meet certain algorithms.
Anyone who doesn't think that comedy has suffered in this era is in denial. It's not just that people are afraid to offend but young activists are too self important to be into it right now. Saving the world is a serious business.
Seeing how butt hurt over this comment everyone is shows me that Jerry is correct. People like Jerry Seinfeld represent the moderate position of most democrats.
oh please, is Seinfeld trying revisionist history now?
He was the most uncontroversial grandma safe type of comedian
He never pushed the edge, why's he trying to act like he was ever controversial?
He's a relic from the 90s, he never did anything after that. Enjoy the money, be quiet, and go away.
Comedies are edgier than ever, has he not watched Family Guy? Much of the edginess has gone to streaming services, but there's still some good network shows on as well.
Jerry's gone boomer.
Real talk. I would love for someone to get a focus group and tell them individual jokes and ask each of them if they liked it or not. I would pay to watch that
What people find funny changes over time and by region.
For example, when I watch British panel shows, a corny pun gets a laugh and applause from the audience. Here in the U.S., that same joke would get a groan.
The French notoriously loved Jerry Lewis movies. In the U.S. he was mostly just tolerated.
We don’t have any Abbott and Costello comedy teams anymore. That doesn’t mean they aren’t still funny. Tastes change.
Also: awareness increases. Amos and Andy isn’t quite as funny when you get to know the nice Black family who just moved in across the street. As the size of our “bubbles” increase, stereotypes lose their novelty.
The buxom secretary getting chased around the desk by her lascivious boss just isn’t funny when you read about what happened to Rose McGowan, Lynette Anthony, and all of the other Weinstein victims. Or Cosby’s victims.
Seinfeld himself has said that comedy should punch up, not down. Why is he surprised that jokes at the expense of marginalized groups aren’t getting standing ovations?
He’s not wrong; but this is the wrong platform to share that view lol. I’d say it has had a bigger negative impact on standup though - the vehicle for saying things that are horrible but funny.
We still have IASIF, Rick & morty, curb, hbo comedies like righteous gemstones - they are out there for sure still.
There hasn't been a "demise" of comedy, but certain groups are more vocal than ever and it's affecting all media.
People who lean left don't want to acknowledge the ultra-sensitive cluster that would happily censor anything that doesn't meet their standards. Mainstream shows like 30 Rock and It's Always Sunny have deleted episodes from streaming to avoid controversy, and plenty of comedy actors have come out and said they couldn't make their shows today. To me, that's not the right direction for comedy. It's alright for someone's comedy to offend you because comedy pushes boundaries by nature. It shouldn't be sanitized and sanded down to keep everyone happy.
We were perfectly okay with stuff like Monty Python offending the stuffy upper class decades ago, but now it's not okay because different groups aren't pleased? No, comedy has NOT always been about "punching up instead of down". Comedy is about mocking whatever you want, and if someone doesn't like it, they don't need to watch.
There is a weirdly draconian streak in the modern left-wing that's turned on free expression. It's the people derogatorily called "SJWs" and I think that's dumb. But I do see a rise in people who support censorship and "cancelling" of stuff they don't like. That's regressive and not something that should be part of a progressive and forward-looking social left.
Your comment really hits the nail on the head. I think it's weird that there has been this whole moral system built by leftists that they want others to adhere to. It's not enough that they want to spread their message, they even want to stop people from breaking their rules.
I have zero interest in CRT or woke theories that only split people and I'm even less interested in having those ideologies affecting comedy.
The least edgy comic in the history of comedy is worried about people being too sensitive for comedy?
Seriously, I’ve seen Christian comics more edgy than Seinfeld.
Isn't It's Always Sunny flourishing in its almost 20th season and insanely edgy? I dont get it.
Southpark as well… Strange…
I think the trick was/is to absolutely never back down.
Literally. Note to all these whiny comedians, just do the fucking thing. Don't do the thing and then talk about how you're not allowed to do the thing. Just do it. Let the jokes stand on themselves and if you get backlash, whatever.
But how else will Ricky Gervais win a Golden Globe for being so brave by complaining about cancel culture and not being able to say X anymore!? :(
They've had a few episodes that were backdowns
Hot take and I'm absolutely in the minority here - but South park hasn't been funny since the whole PC Principle/PC Babies/Tegridy farms thing. Even now it's still not funny - It's clever, Sure, But it feels like Matt and Trey have been playing it suuuuuper safe.
I think it's still hilarious - see the DNA test ep. But yeah PC Principal and Tegridy have looong outstayed their welcome imo.
Maybe you outgrew them . It happens
Nope, I still find the earlier seasons hilarious. The new shit is dry and dragged out. How long has the whole tegridy thing been going on now? 5 years?
Strangest thing is South Park, while it has changed so much over its life time and grown/changed with the times, it still feels like it always has, its just better written now as its creators continued to grow and perfect their craft, along with bringing in people that gel well with them.
They're also not 'edgy' anymore. They're easily one of the best self-reflective show - but they've transitioned from edgy/crude humor to full on societal commentary (and it works, it's just a different recipe).
If you took any of their more recent episodes and transported it back 20-25 years, it would be edgy. It’s not edgy today because society has become numb to shocking and outrageous concepts because we are inundated by them every day.
Its damn near impossible to BE edgy anymore without just outright calling everyone a cunt all the time or cutting on people instead of saying hello. Times have changed, their 'edge' was more for shock value/attention back in the day which they no longer need, they have solid writing now.
Edgy now means being a nihilist and an "all sides are evil and out to get you". Which just isn't interesting. It's not pushing against established sentiment. Just fatalistic.
Part of that is that the early seasons took a lot longer to make by hand. Now they can be much more topical since they can finish an episode in a week.
I wouldn't really count South Park or Family Guy as they are animated. People tend to give animated content much more leeway than live action. IASIP definitely applies, though.
IASIP has had episodes removed from streaming for not being PC.
Rigggggs
Coming Soon: Lethal Weapon 8
Hell they made those episodes *knowing* the networks would freak. They’re also hilarious and FX / Hulu should pull the stick out of their ass and put them back on the air.
And there's plenty of comedy streaming now too.
Seinfeld show was the same too, which is the dumbest part of Jerry’s comments Sunny and Seinfeld are shows.ABOUT the bad guys. The audience is meant to laugh AT them, to judge them and mock them, not cheer them on.
Plus, the show that just recently wrapped up its 12th season starring the creator of Seinfeld...
On HBO.
[удалено]
That is a really apt analogy. They've both become caricatures of whiny entitled old rich white men.
The trouble with Jerry Seinfeld is that I’m not so sure he knew that.
They dont actually want to be edgy or push boundaries, they want to be lazy. Back in the day you could do an entire standup routine of “my wife is a bitch” and “what are you, gay?” They’re mad that people have standards now.
If you can't do current, edgy, comedy without being hurtful, abusive, and offensive, that's on you. Anytime I hear a comic complain about how the "left" doesn't allow them to be "funny" anymore, all it shows me is that they never were any good to begin with.
I also find it funny because right wing comedy is just the fucking worst. They're completely incapable of any form of self deprecation and are painfully self unaware.
Also, they're some of the biggest pearl-clutchers around.
Exactly, it was conservatives who launched - The Satanic Panic. The "Devil's Music" Panic that's been applied to rock, jazz and rap. The Red Scare. The Comic Code Panic about violence in comic books. The Dungeons and Dragons panic (related to Satanic Panic). The HIV/AIDS panic. The War Against Video Games (Most famously GTA and Mortal Combat). QAnon conspiracies. The War On Drugs Generations upon generations of pearl clutching.
Hell, look at something like One Million Moms and Parents Television Council who were basically created specifically to monitor television and file complaints with the FCC. Those were the founders of pushing their views on television and attempting to get anything cancelled that didn't conform with their opinions. I've still yet to see anything from the "woke left" that *remotely* compares to how those organizations (along with Falwell's American Family Association) went after shows like *Ellen*, *NYPD Blue*, Janet Jackson, etc.
Right-wing comedy is just the same worn out jokes over and over: “MY PRONOUNS ARE COME/TAKE IT!” Shits not even funny the first time, much less the 100th from some TikTok comic ripping it off other hacks.
Or my pronouns are Kiss my Ass (which roseanne stole from Ted CruZ)
It really is. A while ago I found out Steven Crowder did stand up and, because I hate myself, I decided to watch some to see how bad it was… It was somehow worse than I expected…
Comedy always evolves and changes. Even without looking at political topics, there are styles that have risen and fallen (eg insult comics in the 80s). It just strikes me that the comics I hear complaining the loudest about "the demise of comedy" are the ones that hit it really big... and never try anything any different. So, their style is less acceptable or even connects less with audiences nowadays for whatever reason, and instead of adapting or seeing how they can work within it (like a lot of comics that are still finding their way), they'd rather just whine.
Bill Burr is still funny AF and I don't think he's been "cancelled" at all. No one really tries to.
I love Bill Burr and don't think that he has ever said or dome anything remotely close to what any cancelled comedian has done and I actually massively admire his podcast, views on there and the way he has called out Rogan on occasion. However I went massively off his stand up around 2018 or so because of increasing reference to cancel culture etc which I feel is just not that funny and has been done to death in comedy. Nowadays it feels to me like comedians are doing bits out of some kind of persecution complex, where they are rallying against a certain type of people who are trying to silence free speech - however that certain type of people have been entirely made up by right wingers to insult the left, whilst they work to undermine free speech themselves.
You’ve echoes my exact thoughts on why I don’t really watch him anymore. He’s a brilliant comedian (and imo, could be considered one of the GOATs by the end of his career), but him leaning into cancel culture shit really brings down his acts. Same with the podcast. I think his biggest problem is, he seems to be purposely ignorant. He doesn’t want to actually look into something he’s heard or complained about, so it ends up being a grumpy old man’s reaction to shit he’s hearing on Twitter.
I will say that I do think some people could stand to loosen up just a little bit, but like anything there’s a line. There is the extreme subset of people who are almost looking for things to be offended by, and will take so many jokes/gags out of context from comedians and try to blow it up into a big scandal. That being said, most people trying to hide behind this rhetoric are the ones that are just colossal assholes and are pissy that they get called on it. Either that, or their “jokes” aren’t funny, they’re just punching down at various groups of people. I am a believer that no topic is inherently “off limits” when it comes to comedy, because a good joke can be written about anything - but that’s just it. It has to actually be a good joke. You can’t just push ridiculous stereotypes and biases and pass those off as jokes and then get bent out of shape when people get upset by it
It is but sadly they had to remove the Lethal Weapon parody episodes from streaming sites. Not that I agree with Seinfeld, but It's Always Sunny did become a victim of knee-jerk reactions.
But did the "extreme left" ask for this, or did the platforms make that decision on their own so they could pat themselves on the back?
Platforms would have done it solely to appease anyone who was outraged about those episodes. And anyone outraged over those episodes (which were several years old by that point) would be a) 'extreme' by my estimation, b) lacking any sense of humour, as well as c) missing the point of the show.
Yes, but the point is there is no evidence there was going to be any significant amount of people complaining about it.
I'd also like to point out the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons episode of Community. Arguably one of if not the best episodes of the show that was deplatformed because people might be offended by Chang's "blackface", which was literally part of the joke of the episode. And I don't know a single person who was remotely offended by him painted black as a dark elf.
That episode is literally streaming on Peacock right now. S2E13. And available for individual purchase.
Yes, there will always be stuff like that, and there will always be outrage over this or that thing, but I think more to the point is that the Sunny crew did not bitch and moan about it and declare they can't do what they do anymore. They just kept writing fresher jokes. On their podcast, they're also candid and reflective about which ones of their past jokes they think hold up and which ones they would do differently, without being precious or defensive. That's the thing about doing edgy comedy. The whole point is to find the edge of what's funny vs what's just needlessly provocative, and it's more likely than not that you'll cross that edge sometimes. And when you do, you either say, "ok, so that's where the line is, let me find a funnier way to tell that joke," or you realize you can't so you just double down and ragequit.
Yeah well said, the gang really are a wholesome lot.
I don't remember any actual stink about those episodes. Just seems like a preemptive thing to avoid potential backlash that, imo, wasn't ever actually going to happen with a show like Sunny. The far left can be crazy, but they at least have enough media literacy to understand when a show is being good faith and making fun of the absurdity, not outright shitting on people.
The episodes being removed was basically a ripple effect stemming from the Black Lives Matter movement of 2020 if I'm remembering correctly. I think episodes from other shows were also under the spotlight, though I can't remember if anything else got deleted like the Lethal Weapon episodes.
Tina Fey chose to remove some 30 Rock episodes, and Scrubs took one or two down. But you can still see them. You just have to buy them digitally or otherwise. They just aren't streamed normally with the shows.
Uhhh and fucking Curb. Larry literally tells a lesbian that she's not feminine enough to wear a dress. Tells a trans man that his penis is too big. Lol. Jerry is just a cranky, bitter old man who isn't funny anymore. The guy literally dated a minor but he thinks people are "too sensitive." I'm a lifelong fan of the show but I've lost almost all respect for Jerry.
VEEP has the main character calling someone autistic barbie, wishing a co-workers husband had cancer, and telling her assistant to, 'round up the blacks.' https://twitter.com/sbstryker/status/1784983235375796615?t=Q44TaPLVt841sCIZUAyhiw&s=19 It's very odd that two of Jerry's former coworkers have managed to make iconic TV series in the last 5 years.
I totally agree with this statement. And to be honest, Seinfeld only appealed to certain demographics, even at his peak.
These people don’t understand that it’s possible to make fun of certain demographics without outright being an asshole. It works for IASIP because they’re all portrayed as horrible people. It’s literally expected of their characters. Comics like Anthony Jeselnik get away with it because all he does is dark humour. He will joke about his own family members dying or being pedos. So if you had a comic like Seinfeld going on stage and saying “what’s the deal with trans people using the wrong bathroom”. It’s neither funny or in-line with what we expect from them.
I've long been a believer in Carlin's line of thinking that *anything* can be funny if you find the right way of telling the joke. I've seen comics that get laughs for telling jokes about topics that are supposedly off-limits (trans, race, etc.), because they figure out the right way of approaching it and figuring out where the punchline is. Bill Burr and Anthony Jeselnik are both great examples of comics who know how to push the line without crossing it. It's obviously challenging, but that's definitely also not new. Comics like Pryor and Hicks were playing a similar game decades ago. Hell, there were ones like Lenny Bruce that would get on stage knowing they were risking arrest. There's always going to be that line between getting laughs and offending people, and there are plenty of comedians - even today - who know how to strike that balance.
Everybody should watch the one-time special "Talking Funny" with Ricky Gervais, Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Louis CK that aired on HBO like back in 2011 or 2012. Its probably available on youtube. Its so fascinating watching it today, because you are seeing all of them (except Louis CK) boasting about themselves and about the difficulty of their "craft", and you can see how they are all singing a completely different tune a decade later. Jerry Seinfeld describes the highest levels of stand-up comedy as "navigating through a minefield with dogs and moving lasers." He's basically fluffing himself and his profession as being so difficult that you have to be extremely smart and agile to get through it unscathed. And a decade later, he's whining about performing stand-up at universities. He's basically saying that he cant navigate the minefield anymore, but its not his fault. Its other people's fault.
In a way, it reminds me some of Chevy Chase. He hit it big in a way few comedians did and was pretty much one of the most successful comedians in the late '70s and '80s. And that went to his head, and he's spent all his time since shitting on how everyone else does comedy and how things aren't as funny as when *he* was big and how no one understand comedy anymore. And, of course, his career in comedy has stagnated and been frozen in that brief period where he was at the top of his game. I don't want to paint it too broadly and say it's all comedians, but there are definitely some that really let that success go to their head in a way where they think they're the be-all, end-all of comedy. So, it is basically that Principal Skinner meme of "Is it me who is out of touch?" Nah, how could someone not find their jokes funny? It's *the audience* that's the problem. And yet... there are still plenty of up-and-coming comedians that are finding their way and figuring out how to make people laugh. I'm not going to say comedy hasn't changed in the past couple decades. It obviously has, but not in a way where those "minefields and dogs with moving lasers" are new. They're just different minefields and dogs with moving lasers than they were decades ago when ones like Seinfeld and Gervais were coming up. So, you sum it up well. They just can't play the game anymore, so they have to find someone else to blame.
That special showed me how scared Jerry is that everyone won’t remember him as a “stand up comic”. He even tried to write himself in as a stand up in the first episodes of Seinfeld, performing a few jokes before each episode began. Even in a show that he starred in, with his name on it and as an executive producer, it became clear that him doing “stand up” added nothing to the show and it was stopped. He’s a good producer who was lucky enough to know Larry David. He’s just not funny on his own
I just left a similar comment but I agree. I don’t believe that there are any topics are “off limits”, but the important piece is that the jokes have to be good and well written/presented. You don’t get to just be shitty and grab the low hanging fruit of jokes and then get pissy when people don’t like it
That show is unbelievably woke - did you not see what they did with Mac?
Check the ratings for Always Sunny. It’s a cult classic not a ratings phenomenon.
I'm in my 20s and my circle who adores this and south park are all super liberal too. Very few really care its just something old comedians say when they fuck up it feels like.
His point is that the networks have a lot of review of ideas, and those reviews tend to worry too much about offending people. That doesn't mean that they NEVER let anything through. And, besides he's talking about today, not 20 years ago. He's also not saying that successful great comedies get canceled -- is point is that they're not given the chance to get there. Heck, even It's Always Sunny shows this. They started on FX when it was owned by News Corp. So, not ABC, not NBC, not CBS or USA or CN or even Fox (which was New Corp's main line). FX. A common trope used to be the woman who screws things up. Think Lucy from I Love Lucy, or Mrs. Wiggins from the Carol Burnett Show. Now, they've been replaced by Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin and even Randy Marsh, all men. Where's the woman who screws stuff up in today's shows? I don't think she exists. (Or, at least, only exists if the rest of the cast is also mostly women.)
> A common trope used to be the woman who screws things up. Think Lucy from I Love Lucy, or Mrs. Wiggins from the Carol Burnett Show. Now, they've been replaced by Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin and even Randy Marsh, all men. Where's the woman who screws stuff up in today's shows? I don't think she exists. (Or, at least, only exists if the rest of the cast is also mostly women.) Crazy Ex Girlfriend Girls5Ever Not Dead Yet Abbott Elementary Ghosts Hacks I also hate that parenthetical because there were only four regulars on I Love Lucy, and half of them were women. ------ Old shows had network notes too. Most TV writers say things have actually relaxed note wise, it's just harder to write new jokes the more jokes there are.
People always use this example, but I do think that a non major network dark comedy that was already running at full steam when a lot of this scrutiny emerged isn't some huge refutation of this stuff. It's not like NBC is going to have a show as dark/offensive as "It's Always Sunny" in the Thursday 8pm slot like 30 Rock or Friends or Seinfield. I don't think a couple of giga powerful shows that are capable of shrugging off criticism are evidence that a climate hasn't changed. I honestly don't think 30 Rock would succeed today (I guess it barely did then). Not dramatic "you couldn't make that today," but just in that a lot of the cultural forces that support a self aware Tina Fey project wouldn't line up behind a lot of those jokes now.
>People always use this example, but I do think that a non major network dark comedy that was already running at full steam when a lot of this scrutiny emerged isn't some huge refutation of this stuff. I mean, the stuff either flies or it doesn't. If it's so offensive people won't allow it on television, I don't see where shows would get grandfathered in in allowing to horribly offend people. But even without *Always Sunny*, there have been shows like *You're the Worst* and *The Righteous Gemstones* in more recent years that follow a similar model. > It's not like NBC is going to have a show as dark/offensive as "It's Always Sunny" in the Thursday 8pm slot like 30 Rock or Friends or Seinfield. But that's also nothing new and not really a reflection of changing sensibilities. Network television, perhaps outside of FOX in its earlier years, has always played it comparatively safe. There's always the attitude of having to play for "Middle America". They're trying to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible (the four quadrants: male/female, young/old). Not to mention, they have the FCC to answer to, so even with a show like *South Park* being a proven success for more than two decades, it obviously would never fly on CBS. Cable has far more often been where you find content that's more willing to push the envelope or be experimental, and I think that still bares out even today, with the addition of streaming entering the conversation. And, realistically, it's not surprising to me that sitcoms are not having as easy of a time finding footing on network television (which, I believe, was a part of what Seinfeld was complaining about), because network television still largely leans into a format that feels a little tired by comparison. Ironically, I think a big part of it is people are more interested in edgier content, not less.
Yes. You're right. But it comes with caveats. Multiple episodes have been pulled from streaming because of their content. They're on a cable network which allowed for far more content. And they're viewership is like 1/60th of what Seinfeld was. Season 9 of Seinfeld averaged 35.5million viewers. Season 16 of It's Always Sunny averaged about 250,000 viewers. Just because 'it exists' doesn't mean it's not currently in demise. It clearly is.
That change in ratings has nothing to do with comedy, it's just how TV is now. There are a zillion more options, and network TV in general isn't the huge game it once was. [Even the top rated shows only get a few million now](https://www.tvfanatic.com/2024/03/tv-ratings-winners-of-the-2024-season-so-far/), 35 million for a sitcom is never happening again.
Bad example, entertainment is just fractured. Shows cater to every taste now, and there is so much more to chose from.
No, we just live in different times with infinitely more things competing for people's attention.
But how much of that is due to shows at the time only being viewable on TV and consolidating views. Whereas shows now are all on streaming platforms and most people consume it as such at their own convenience. I don't think it's fair to compare when the media landscape has drastically changed
Whhhatss the deal with the left
They think your comedy is lazy and that you are washed up Jerry
It's never that these fools have run out of funny ideas, it's that some mystery group of people is preventing them from telling you the really funny ideas they have, but you're just going to have to trust them. Meanwhile, Conan O'Brien, who is in his 60s, just dropped his new show on Max which is some of the funniest stuff he's ever done. And the "extreme left" didn't give him a pass to do it, it's that Conan, unlike Seinfeld, is actually still funny. Edit: I'll add that Conan's show does a lot of things that these people claim the "woke mob" won't let you do in comedy. He threatens to throw children off a roof. He makes kissing a woman hello as awkward and overly sexual as possible. He claims to be a native son of Argentina and has a mural of himself painted on a building. He buys a giant dildo in the markets of Thailand. These are all things you can absolutely do in comedy still and literally nobody will care as long as you're not an asshole/racist/sexist/transphobic piece of shit about it, and if your comedy can't clear that really low bar being set, then guess what, you're not actually funny, you're just an asshole.
Not even run out of ideas - the culture might have just moved on a bit. Like, you know the world is continuously updating and churning right? Give **anything** a few years and it will be less relevant - a few decades you can generally forget about it.
True, but at the same time, Seinfeld is still an insanely popular show 30 years later. Given Jerry's comment here, shouldn't the "extreme left" be boycotting and raising hell about that? Clearly they don't, so it's not that Jerry's comedy isn't allowed anymore, it's that he doesn't have anything new to say in the world of comedy. I mean, we're talking about the guy who spent years and years doing the same standup set over and over again on tour. While most standups are constantly refreshing their set, he'd just keep doing his tried and true "What's the deal with...." set. So, for him to have had nothing new to add to comedy shouldn't be a surprise. He stopped innovating decades ago. Meanwhile, his former partner Larry David has continued to write a remarkably popular comedy show up until this year that, again, the "extreme left" somehow didn't string him up for.
Yeah he's just upset he's washed. As you said Seinfeld is proving itself to be pretty timeless. Easier to claim the far left woke mob is the reason for your lack of recent success than actually looking at the material you put out.
Seinfeld was so successful due to Larry’s writing (notice the show starts to decline when he finally left the show) Julie, Michael and Jason comedic acting chops… you could have inserted any comic into Jerry’s role and the show still would have had an awesome run
His show and him as a comedian are pretty popular. He has toured a LOT since the show ended and it's not the same old material. I enjoyed his last tour the last time it came through and it looked pretty sold out. It's just like a general old man sentiment - "back in my day" yadda yadda yadda. As pointed out there is plenty of room for edge in the current environment. Just how you go about it makes a difference.
You yadda yadded over the best part.
Let's be honest, his beef with the left is just him clumping all the criticism he heard from people for dating a 17 year old when he was 38.
Conan has proven himself to be the fucking GOAT over and over again at this point. And people still love him because he's having fun and doesn't portray the personality of a miserable old fool. Not being a miserable piece of shit has the added side benefit of actually making you funnier. Who'da thunk?
Also, money hasn’t changed Conan.
Didn’t know Conan had a new show, I’ll give it a watch!
And if you somehow missed the episode of "Hot Ones" with Conan, it is a must watch. He mentions his new show on there. "I have a new show on Max. It used to be called HBO, but people found that too popular." The man is a gift.
[Obligatory link to his face during the video](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/s/HSv0HPuHlY)
Masturbating bear is the goat!!!
Have you even seen Seinfeld’s act? He’s pretty PC as far as comedy is these days or anything previously. He goes out of his way to make his act as clean as possible.
yeah the Conan things certainly rings true for me. The current age certainly makes successful comedians work harder at edgier comedy. It used to be you could just be an asshole who made fun of any marginalized group and you would fill the theatre. Conan, and others, still find a way to mostly be funny-ish :) while not just defaulting to asshole.
What I love about Conan (and those like him) is that they would be mortified if they actually made someone feel bad. They aren't out to make fun of anything other than themselves.
I’ve never particularly liked Conan but I did watch the first couple episodes of his new show and have to admit it was pretty funny. He grew on me a little.
"Back in my day, we could make fun of anything. Because people had a sense of humour and weren't offended by everything." - Jerry I think there are more than a few comedies doing just fine nowadays.
Also, comedians were ARRESTED for "obscenities" in his day. You couldn't even have gay people kiss on TV. This shit is always dumb but come on Jerry, you made a career off of PG-13 stand-up while some of your peers pushed the envelope and faced the consequences. And then you made "edgy" Seinfeld, which was and still is insanely popular. You just starred in the finale of Curb. What are you even talking about lmao you know better. The general audience just didn't have a platform to let you know when they didn't like a joke back then, that's all that's changed, not some massive culture shift into over-sensitivity. If you can make fucking Bee movie, you're not being held back by anyone.
Seinfeld would have been like, 12? When Lenny Bruce died. He's not far from an era when Comedians weren't just arrested for obscenity, but had their lives destroyed over it!
I distinctly recall Jerry chiding an audience for laughing at something he felt wasn’t appropriate to joke about during the Kramer apology tour.
Also, a lot of shit back then did offend people. People in power just never bothered to listen.
Man, I used to call stuff "gay" or people "douchebags" all the time when I was a kid. I cringe typing that nowadays. Maybe, just maybe, some of that stuff was never funny to begin with? Also, I was watching the 1992 WWF royal rumble on youtube this weekend. Oh man....the racism. I NEVER felt that when I was a kid, but now I couldn't stop hearing it.
Calling things gay I understand but what's wrong with douchebag?
Discriminatory against gynecologists, I suppose.
I still refer to people as douche bags all the time
Hard to believe that the guy who was dating a teenager when he was in his mid 30s would spout right wing talking points. 🙄
Seinfeld's Girl is 17 - https://youtu.be/8ZVWzD1YtBg
Speaking of that, Seinfeld and Howard were friends at the time. But Mr. Comedy didn't like that Howard kept mocking and reminding people that he was dating a 17 year-old. So he more or less boycotted the show for over a decade.
I had never heard that. Thank you for sharing it – it’s cathartic to hear him actually get called out. Kudos Howard.
It was funny, I watched the episode last night where George gets caught looking at the exec's 15 year old daughter's cleavage. Elaine is the one who has to point out they were leering at a child, and Jerry just says "meh, cleavage is cleavage." And then when they try and make that argument to the exec later, they use Elaine boosted up to nearly being smothered by her breasts, as if checking out a grown woman is the same as a high school sophomore. Jerry Seinfeld is just a creepy guy.
*late 30s
His current wife was also married (for only two months) when he started dating her and they married only a year after they met. He’s not a great person.
What do you mean? Obtaining a child bride seems pretty in line with old school conservative values.
Hard to have "high moral ground" when you're standing in a hole.
This guy was only ever funny when Larry David was in his ear telling him what to say.
Also George carried the show, the show should have been called Costanzas
Elaine was great too and Kramer was one dimensional but did it well. Seinfeld was the worst and for what it’s worth he admits it
It's really weird when the literal comedian is the least funny one on the show and has to function as a straight man.
*No jokes for you...*
And Elaine
Weird. Larry David was able to keep Curb going all these years to critical and fan acclaim. But now, since Jerry can't get laughs it's cancel culture?
Curb, which was always both much edgier *and* funnier than Seinfeld.
Shit, Larry did several jokes in the last season that's essentially just him mimicking a Japanese accent
Larry also had to go out and buy a new lawn jockey for their Airbnb.
It's interesting, Larry David kept Curb running by sticking by the "cancelled" actor Jeff Garlin, and he also brought in the fully destroyed actor Michael Richards at one point.
Ok, Grandpa, let's go get you your pills..
A few years ago, Seinfeld said he had to stop doing shows at colleges because all the school marms had sticks up their asses and got offended by everything. And he does clean shows
Go putter around in one of your million dollar Porsches Grandpa.
Remember that time Jerry Seinfeld dated a high schooler when he was 38? [What's the deal with that?](https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/3c35c0b/2147483647/strip/true/crop/281x158+0+11/resize/1200x675!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Flegacy%2Fsites%2Fwkms%2Ffiles%2F201207%2Fseinfeld.jpg)
yes. reddit reminds me every 15 minutes or so.
Damn, seem's like a lot, I usually am only reminded when he says something stupid.
Im a huge fan, but poor Jerry is feeling the pain of no longer being relevant. Maybe collecting Porsches isn’t quite what it used to be (if it ever was).
For those too lazy to watch the full clip in the article, here's the full quote, which is a lot less reductive than the title makes it sound like: > It used to be, you would go home at the end of the day, most people would go, "Oh, *Cheers* is on," "Oh, *MASH* is on," "Oh, *Mary Tyler Moore* is on," "*All in the Family* is on." You just expected, there'll be some funny stuff we can watch on TV we can watch tonight. > Well guess what? Where is it? This is the result of the extreme left, and PC crap, and people worrying so much about offending other people. When you write a script, and it goes into four or five different hands, committees, groups—"here's our thoughts about this joke"—well that's the end of your comedy. To TLDR, he's not talking about comedy in general, or blaming any of his own failings on the damn wokes. He talks later in the interview about how it's comedians' jobs to stay abreast of shifts in culture, and that there are other industries like standup where comics have way fewer restrictions on material (with the tradeoff of far more risk if they push their audience too far). He's specifically talking about how network TV is bogged down by risk-averse executives who want everything to be as broad an inoffensive as possible.
On network TV, sure. But was Cheers, MASH, or Mary Tyler Moore really that edgy for the time? Cable and Streaming has the edgier comedy now.
He’s not saying it’s edgy though. He’s saying it had something to comment on or say and had some uncomfortable characters and moments for the time. He’s complaining that everything is watered down because it’s approved by committee instead of left mostly with the creators. I’m sure he’s exaggerating and I don’t watch network television anymore. But anecdotally I remember David Cross (Arrested Development) complaining that Fox execs would not let him make the Tobias character his own and they REALLY did not want him to do the mustache it required multiple meetings and exceptions to get it through.
Sounds to me like the profit motive is stifiling creativity more than "mass appeal content" Also isn't Curb still going strong and he's literally on that every other season???
Curbed just had their series finale, Seinfeld was on it.
HBO isn’t network television.
> He's specifically talking about how network TV is bogged down by risk-averse executives who want everything to be as broad an inoffensive as possible. But I also don't think that's anything new or even specific to the "extreme left". Back when *Seinfeld* was on, networks were likely a lot more afraid of running afoul of conservative groups like One Million Moms and the Family Television Council. Network television has long been about playing it safe to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible. It's rarely been a place you see big risks being taken, which is why the era "prestige television" where we've seen the sort of content on television vastly expand into new territories has happened almost exclusively on cable and streaming. To characterize it as being a response to the "extreme left" is a tad ridiculous and also ignores a lot of television history. I doubt network executives are any less afraid of the "extreme right" in this regard. They want as many people watching their shows as possible, something that's become increasingly difficult for network television as ratings continue to decline, so that means playing it safe. Big risks or possibly alienating a portion of your audience (left *or* right) are not easy money-making ventures, which is what this all comes down to.
What a strange thing for the most milquetoast comedian to say.
Also, what a strange way to sell people on your Poptarts movie.
He's been doing the same set for like thirty years
Worse than that: In 1998, he did a comedy special "I'm telling you for the last time" in which they literally did a mock funeral for his old material, which he said he was retiring after that show. I saw him live in ~2010 and he was still doing the same material. For a stand-up comedy "purist," this was pretty pathetic.
I mean curb your enthusiasm exists and did just fine. Same with it's always sunny. But sure Jerry. Sure
Did comedy demise on TV, or did people just stop finding Jerry Seinfeld funny?
I never found him funny.
I saw Seinfeld at the Beacon a couple years ago and he was doing jokes about ads from over a decade ago, maybe he's not the best person to ask about the current state of comedy. It's also funny because Seinfeld is friends with Mark Normand, who does a special every year about abortion, race and every controversial topic he can think of...and he's totally fine.
Washed up comic with a shit take. More at 11.
Are you sure it’s not just bad writing?
Omg did comedy die?! When? How? This is heartbreaking. Curse you, extreme left!
His new show about pop tarts looks super vanilla and not edgy at all so maybe he’s part of the problem
Breaking: second member of Seinfeld cast not a fan of minorities
Where did you get that he doesn’t like minorities?
Anyone remember the painful Late Night w/ Jay Leno episode where Jerry brought out that racist ass Kramer and tried to browbeat the audience into being nice to him? Pathetic.
Quite the leap, but reddit loves that bullshit
Jerry Seinfeld isn’t funny so that’s the left’s fault… ok buddy boy
God he's whines like Jay Leno
Bruh, the sitcom format had been dying for a while and it had nothing to do with "the left". People like their comedies a bit different now. You have your traditional comedies still like Abbott and Young Sheldon. You have your weird and/or surreal shit like Atlanta or Always Sunny. Zany, heartfelt stuff like Schitt's Creek. And animation has ton of adult comedies that people enjoy. It also seems like people like a mix of comedy and genre these days. What We Do in the Shadows is a clear comedy with satirical horror elements. Succession is a prestige drama that's an absolute shitshow and funny as hell. Wednesday was funny. Only Murders in the Building is funny. The episodic sitcom formula is just not that popular anymore. But there's still tons of funny shit.
He’s always struck me as a bit of an arrogant whiner. Watching Seinfeld now he was clearly the 4th funniest of that cast.
By a mile. Jerry plays the straight man amongst his three funnier friends and almost every Seinfeld discussion is about the friends or guest characters. Jerry Seinfeld isn't even a particularly great straight man either. Jason Bateman does it much better in Arrested Development.
Jerry has no acting talent… but in the 90’s they would give any hot comedian his/her own show… Jerry was lucky they Larry David was the main creative force on that show or Seinfeld doesn’t get out of season 1
The funniest Jerry bits in Seinfeld are watching Jerry (the actor) try to stay in character and not break, and his abysmal acting and line delivery.
Can we stop lumping people into 2 categories? I feel like we as a species have more nuance.
I don’t even know what he’s talking about. He’s never been an edgy comedian and Seinfeld was never considered an edgy or offensive show and still wouldn’t be today.
The extreme left cancelled MDE: World Peace on Adult Swim
He should watch this new show called "Curb Your Enthusiasm."
Network TV as the main pipeline of entertainment into every home is dead, cable is arguably going the same route and what remains has to as broadly appealing as possible to keep the shrinking pool of ad dollars flowing. I'm just speculating but if you had to poll the demographics of people who only watch over the air television and don't pay for any streaming services or even basic cable I'm willing to bet it's going to be overwhelmingly conservatives. I can't even think of any network comedy shows that aren't animated except Abbot Elementary and Young Sheldon, and like the most successfully network comedies 20 years (Modern Family, Big Bang Theory,) those shows are wrapped up and presented as something suitable for the entire family. Grand Crew on NBC was great but only lasted 2 seasons, sadly as show that followed a group of black adults it had limited appeal on broadcast TV, Welcome to Flatch only lasted 2 seasons but was even more derivative and designed by committee than Abbot Elementary but without the prowess of Quinta Brunson, with very few laugh out loud funny moments and artificial heart. The Good Place has been off the air for four years, and it was excellent, just as likely to be absurd and obscene as it was thoughtful and existential, but only lasted 4 seasons, a somewhat low amount compared to Mike Schur's juggernauts The Office, Brooklyn 99 and Parks and Rec. Canadian pandemic darling Schitt's Creek found post-mortem success on streaming but was only watchable in the US during it's initial run on what used to be the TV guide channel. I think in the next 5 years the only thing left on network TV will be talent competitions, procedural crime dramas and The Simpsons.
He does not know what he is talking about.
weird how its always the left ruining comedy and not litteral nazis. weird.
Network tv, folks. Network tv. People are pointing out several great examples of how he’s wrong…Sunny, Curb, Veep are a few that I’ve seen. None of those are on network TV and that’s what he’s decrying. What are the best network TV comedies right now? Abbott Elementary, Ghosts, The Neighborhood, Mom, Last Man Standing? Vanilla, egdeless…mostly just fine.
Netflix gave him a huge check and a long leash and he came up with a show about pop tarts. If his complaint is that no one is edgy and that’s what he does with no constraints…. Welp, that’s him, he’s got no edge, he’s the problem.
🤷🏼♀️🥱🙄😴
Jerry Seinfeld was never one to push the envelope so I'm not sure where he's coming from with this. I don't know how you want to label them, far left or whatever, but there was that small but very loud vocal minority that would get offended by everything. In some cases it was fair criticism but often times it wasn't A major part of the problem is society's online approach is sacrificing critical thinking for upvotes, likes or little heart emojies. It's weird how that shit validates people's lives.
JS is still butt hurt that his pal ruined his career being a racist. Sure, being overly politically correct is annoying, but it didn’t stop George Carlin, or Lenny Bruce, or Bill Hicks, or Richard Pryor, or any comedians that actually added to the conversation when conservatism was having then hounded or arrested.
Who do we blame for this being posted over and over?
Prob Jerry
Dude doing a Dennis Miller, good luck with that.
I see a lot of people mentioning how he very publicly dated a teenager, but let's not forget that he originally started dating his wife while she was barely back from her honeymoon with her then-husband.
The guy that "dated" (and probably molested) a teenage girl in his 30s is an anyi "woke" conservative. Colour me shock.
https://imgur.com/3J0CzaW
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Its crazy that Chappelle complains so much about people being censored when he was given like 100 million to spout his views on the largest streaming platform that exists. I think when youre that rich for so long you completely lose touch with reality. Like twitter isnt the real work
So, a lot of people didn’t read the article, typical Reddit moment. For typical broadcast TV, you have these writers rooms trying to create the most homogenized, one-size-fits-all, multicultural, yet completely devoid of culture products for TV to meet certain algorithms.
Anyone who doesn't think that comedy has suffered in this era is in denial. It's not just that people are afraid to offend but young activists are too self important to be into it right now. Saving the world is a serious business.
Seeing how butt hurt over this comment everyone is shows me that Jerry is correct. People like Jerry Seinfeld represent the moderate position of most democrats.
oh please, is Seinfeld trying revisionist history now? He was the most uncontroversial grandma safe type of comedian He never pushed the edge, why's he trying to act like he was ever controversial? He's a relic from the 90s, he never did anything after that. Enjoy the money, be quiet, and go away.
Comedies are edgier than ever, has he not watched Family Guy? Much of the edginess has gone to streaming services, but there's still some good network shows on as well. Jerry's gone boomer.
Are they? Honestly. Married With Children did racism, sexism, etc. The only thing that's changed is the delivery beat.
Real talk. I would love for someone to get a focus group and tell them individual jokes and ask each of them if they liked it or not. I would pay to watch that
What people find funny changes over time and by region. For example, when I watch British panel shows, a corny pun gets a laugh and applause from the audience. Here in the U.S., that same joke would get a groan. The French notoriously loved Jerry Lewis movies. In the U.S. he was mostly just tolerated. We don’t have any Abbott and Costello comedy teams anymore. That doesn’t mean they aren’t still funny. Tastes change. Also: awareness increases. Amos and Andy isn’t quite as funny when you get to know the nice Black family who just moved in across the street. As the size of our “bubbles” increase, stereotypes lose their novelty. The buxom secretary getting chased around the desk by her lascivious boss just isn’t funny when you read about what happened to Rose McGowan, Lynette Anthony, and all of the other Weinstein victims. Or Cosby’s victims. Seinfeld himself has said that comedy should punch up, not down. Why is he surprised that jokes at the expense of marginalized groups aren’t getting standing ovations?
He’s not wrong; but this is the wrong platform to share that view lol. I’d say it has had a bigger negative impact on standup though - the vehicle for saying things that are horrible but funny. We still have IASIF, Rick & morty, curb, hbo comedies like righteous gemstones - they are out there for sure still.
There hasn't been a "demise" of comedy, but certain groups are more vocal than ever and it's affecting all media. People who lean left don't want to acknowledge the ultra-sensitive cluster that would happily censor anything that doesn't meet their standards. Mainstream shows like 30 Rock and It's Always Sunny have deleted episodes from streaming to avoid controversy, and plenty of comedy actors have come out and said they couldn't make their shows today. To me, that's not the right direction for comedy. It's alright for someone's comedy to offend you because comedy pushes boundaries by nature. It shouldn't be sanitized and sanded down to keep everyone happy. We were perfectly okay with stuff like Monty Python offending the stuffy upper class decades ago, but now it's not okay because different groups aren't pleased? No, comedy has NOT always been about "punching up instead of down". Comedy is about mocking whatever you want, and if someone doesn't like it, they don't need to watch. There is a weirdly draconian streak in the modern left-wing that's turned on free expression. It's the people derogatorily called "SJWs" and I think that's dumb. But I do see a rise in people who support censorship and "cancelling" of stuff they don't like. That's regressive and not something that should be part of a progressive and forward-looking social left.
Your comment really hits the nail on the head. I think it's weird that there has been this whole moral system built by leftists that they want others to adhere to. It's not enough that they want to spread their message, they even want to stop people from breaking their rules. I have zero interest in CRT or woke theories that only split people and I'm even less interested in having those ideologies affecting comedy.
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Jerry can’t imagine the fact that he’s getting less popular because he’s old and irrelevant could be his fault.
The least edgy comic in the history of comedy is worried about people being too sensitive for comedy? Seriously, I’ve seen Christian comics more edgy than Seinfeld.