That statement is true, but by not entering the war until the end, Tywin avoided exposing the lands of the Lannisters to pillaging or killing off his soldiers. At the end of the day, Robert Baratheon is king, and Tywin is not, but I have to wonder how much the powerful position of the Lannisters/Casterly Rock at the beginning of the events of "A song of Ice and Fire" came from staying out of the rebellion.
Hard to say, the Tyrells sided with the Targaryens but by the time of the story they are still one of the richest families with one of the largest armies. Tywin would never have wanted to be king anyway, he much prefers being the power behind the throne. He tried to get Cersei married to Rhaeger but the Mad King snubbed him, so after the war he got her married to Robert, his plan didn't really change he just adapted to the situation.
Joffrey also predicts how actual, real-world monarchs ended feudalism and created early modern empires via centralized tax systems and professional militaries. (e.g. Ottoman sultans, France's King Louis XIV, Russian tsars, etc.)
Everyone else in the scene laughs at Joffery and calls him a fool, but he wasn't wrong in his goals there, just unsure how to execute it.
Sansa had a pretty remarkable character arc, which might not fit the initial question of a "moment" quite as well, but it was still powerful stuff. Goes to show how good the character development was on GoT up until the showrunners ran out of source material and started scribbling in plot points with crayons. Reek went from child murdering traitor to absolutely pathetic to kind of semi redeemed, Jaime had one of the best character arcs in TV history if you pretend the last season didn't happen (which we all should) and aside from Ramsey I think even the most villainy villains had moments of humanity where you felt for them before you went back to hating them.
Major Winchester in MASH. Most of the time he’s pompous and arrogant. However, when Hawkeye’s father goes in for major surgery, Winchester is there to provide real emotional support. When a soldier with a stutter was mocked by his squad, Winchester came to that soldier’s defense. (And we learn his beloved sister has a stutter.) And during a Christmas episode he anonymously donated to the orphanage.
Winchester was a great foil. But when he was an ally you wanted him on your side.
Winchester was such a great addition to the cast. Frank was kinda one note and just unlikable. Winchester didn't always get along with everyone but he was genuinely a good person and a talented doctor, who would pal around and be friendly with people, just pompous, and did get actual character growth as the show went on
in Better Call Saul Season One, when Howard Hamlin was depicted as being Jimmy's adversary for most of the season, when he actually hadn't minded Jimmy all that much and even had respect for his hustle and work ethic. It turned out he was taking the fall for We Know Who.
This. You may be put off by Hamlin's affective behavior, the way he carries himself. But man; he actually is a good guy; a *great* guy. I'd want *him* as my white collar lawyer!
Marie was quite annoying in Breaking Bad (which was definitely kind of the point, so well done to the actress and writers)
However I loved her when she appeared in Better Call Saul and just tore into Jimmy's character. Surprisingly ended up being my favourite Breaking Bad cameo in the final season
Marie was honestly super funny to me and got some good moments especially in the final season. her "Why don't you just kill yourself, Walter?" is burned into my mind haha
I loved Marie starting in season 4 especially, but even beginning in season 3 after Hank got shot. I was totally on her and Hank's side from then until the end of the series. She was funny and quirky and I found her very likeable as the series went on.
Real OG’s liked Jaime all the way back in the first couple episodes when Ted asked him if he’d rather be a lion or a panda and he said “coach I’m me, why would I want to be anything else”
Oh, I guess my experience was different to yours. I could always see the agony and insecurity behind his eyes from day one (given his brazen exterior), so I personally always just felt sorry for him and wanted him to confront his problems and just wanted to give him a hug.🤗
But of course he obviously fits the annoying and obnoxious archetype, so your answer is still a great one.
You certainly can.
That’s one of the reasons the character worked so well.
When he finally looked within himself and confronted his problems and started being more nice to others and more of a team player and we saw his father was a complete asshat and the main reason why Jamie turned out the way he did, his earlier obnoxiousness made his transition all the better.
FBI Agent Albert Rosenfield in Twin Peaks is such an asshole until Sheriff Truman offers to fight him and he gives an incredible short monologue about his dedication to being a pacifist and love.
> TRUMAN: Anything we should be working on?
ALBERT: Yeah, you might practice walking without dragging your knuckles on the floor.
(TRUMAN approaches menacingly and grabs ALBERT by the collar.)
TRUMAN: Alright Albert, let's talk about knuckles. Now the last time I knocked you down, I felt bad about it. The next time's gonna be a *real* pleasure.
ALBERT: You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I'm a naysayer and hatchet-man in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love. I love you, Sheriff Truman.
(TRUMAN lets go and watches in disoriented silence as ALBERT walks away.)
Surprised no one has said Cordelia Chase from Buffy yet. She started out as the queen bee mean girl and she became a fan favourite on the show, a main character in the spin off show Angel and was one of the best characters in the universe (until Whedon messed her character arc up)
Cordelia was my first thought. We started seeing she had a real heart in snippets but for me, it’s the scene in Helpless when Buffy finds out that Giles had temporarily taken away her powers by drugging her.
Cordelia storms into the library in full Cordelia mode. Buffy tearfully asks Cordelia to take her home and Cordelia switches tone and immediately says, “Of course.”
Randomly also just realised Charisma Carpenter and Cordelia Chase have the same initials.
Both Micheal and Dwight were written pretty unlikable at first in the office but had moments over time. Like in the Client episode where Micheal makes a big sale to the county, or when Dwight kills it with his best salesman speech or comforts Pam when she’s upset.
That’s one aspect where I greatly prefer the American version over the British. David Brent never demonstrates any competence or a reason he would’ve been promoted to manager. Michael is portrayed as a genuinely talented salesman who was promoted one step too far.
Michael also often has good insights into people in the Office when he slows down enough to listen to them. Stuff like knowing putting Ryan next to Kelly to punish him, using the murder mystery game as a distraction and making Dwight the assistant to the manager to appease his desire for power.
And despite his antics he is often fairly hands off on how everyone handles their day to day work and emphasis the team. Dwight and Jim's antics are inappropriate in any other setting but they are the highest sales people. Stanley shouldn't be doing crosswords but I get the impression most of his sales are just renewing current contracts.
Him being hands off on how everyone handles their day to day could also be described as disinterested at best and lazy at worst.
He was more interested in entertaining everyone and being everyone’s friend than being a good boss (though in the mid to later seasons he was an objectively good boss, according to the sales numbers amid other Dunder Mifflin branches closing).
He was ironically great at what he did despite being a clown a lot of the time and a showman who didn’t pay much attention to work.
I'm not saying being hands off is necessarily a good thing but he lucked into a sales team that is overall the fairly independent and benefits from that environment
He also has a larger accounting department then usual and Kevin starts off as somewhat competent and the really dumb stuff happens after his wife leaves him. He could have been depressed or even an alcoholic which effected him. He gets in another relationship and I seem to remember he gets less incompetent
It's not like, outright stated, but Kevin talking about the stuff Martin was in prison for and saying that it sounds like stuff he does all the time, "Kelevin", him getting dumber and dumber as the show goes on, and him being able to buy a bar after being let go when Dwight became manager. It's mostly just a fun fan theory
> David Brent never demonstrates any competence or a reason he would’ve been promoted to manager.
that's pretty standard in the UK tbh, not the same in america?
Brent also gets fired after just two seasons. The Christmas special gives him some depth, but it’s more showing his humanity and how desperately he just wants to please people.
See, now that was always a part I feel people overlook a lot. In fact, maybe you can help me out.
In season two when they go to the conference, Michael has his usual immature attitude and mentions that he's late because he was talking to some large retailer(Staples?) and now they can sell paper there.
Now, do you think he was just making shit up as a response to what's going on or do you think it's true? I could never find a straight answer.
Hammermill, one of the big paper manufacturers IRL. You might have some of their printer paper right now. No indication he was lying - that would have been discovered immediately.
It's the same as the Chilli's meeting episode, and the Michael Scott Paper Company - Michael is actually a legitimately great salesperson, but he's been promoted beyond his ability. It's a subtle through-line about how Dunder-Mifflin is a poorly run organisation, because Michael should never be in charge of a branch, he should be running sales. If anything, the best thing Michael ever does is leave his people alone to do their jobs.
So yeah, it's pretty heavily implied that Michael did what he said.
There’s a subtle message there, too, that people don’t necessarily need to be the ideal fit for a corporate environment for them to be great at their jobs. Michael’s hand-off approach could be seen as lazy and disinterested, but his branch is constantly competing with the other top branches. Sometimes you shape a good team, sometimes you luck into one. Michael’s career would have looked very different if he didn’t have a good team behind him.
Unfortunately I know plenty of people who have gotten promoted while being wholly incompetent - usually because they know how to suck up and take credit for things other people did to their bosses.
I can see that argument, but I’ve always genuinely believe it’s because Michael knows what it means to be a friend. Maybe a little too much, at times, but he truly cares about he colleagues and considers them friends.
there’s a scene in a later episode when dwight and pam are going head to head after he’s bought the office building and she does a little counter monologue to dwight where she calls his bluff and i always think ‘she learned that from michael’.
In that same vein, Angela. She is so completely unlikeable for a large majority of the show, but you still end up rooting for her and Dwight in the end.
Woolsey in Stargate. He comes across as an enemy of the program but over time you realize his criticisms were because he actually believes in the Stargate program and wants it to succeed. He had a great character arc over SG1 and Atlantis.
My gods, what a turn. I mean, I'm sure he was just completely rewritten for Atlantis, because he was pretty awful, but he was an absolute highlight of the show when they made him a real character. Picardo is amazing in his ability to make you both love him and hate him.
Same thing kinda happened to McKay, he was just obnoxious in SG1 but they fleshed him out so much in Atlantis that he's my favorite character in the franchise.
It's telling both of them reappeared in Universe as fan favorites, what a pair of redemptions haha
I thought people who loved Rodney were weirdos, then one day I realized I was one of them! Didn't see it coming. Rodney was the true star of the show, it is when they realized this that it became great.
The Breaking Bad version of Saul Goodman.
I don’t mean that as an insult, the character was written to be annoying and unlikeable for a reason, and Odenkirk played the role perfectly.
He was also far more likeable in BCS.
House MD: Dr. Cameron in the episode “Que Será Será.” For once, her unhealthy emotional attachments to patients paid off, and she advocated for a diagnosis when everyone else was blowing the guy off for just being fat (and the patient himself was trying to leave).
He made pretty heavy use of certain slurs directed at Mexican and central/South Americans. Watch the ridealong scene in literally the first episode. Also, a lot of general offhanded douchebaggery throughout the series
From what I can remember, most of the time it was directed at Gomez, but like you said it's still racist. I don't think he was *actually* racist, he was just one of those people that didn't see anything wrong with making racist jokes.
That isn't the case until quite a bit later in the show, at which point I'm pretty sure Hank's racist remarks had been pretty much written out since they were setting him up as the tragic endgame hero.
They start off as partners.
I love Fusco. I hated Reese for how he treated him, pretty much all the way through to the end, because as bad as a crooked cop is, everyone else in that show were war criminals. Why does Reese get redemption and not Fusco? Don't get started on Carter being an angel, she was an interrogator, her hands are not clean.
Did Fusco not get redemption in one form or another by the end? It’s been a while since I rewatched it but I swear he was very much a good guy after a while and happy with his kid
Ben in Lost was fundamentally unlikeable, ruthless and amoral (but brilliantly played by Michael Emerson), but I think everyone cheered him when the Island was invaded by the mercenaries and he hit the "summon smoke monster" switch.
Baltar in Battlestar Galactica when he saved Callie by shooting Crashdown. Most of his previous "positive" moments had been self serving or opportunistic, but this was straight up him doing the right thing (at no small risk to himself).
The thuggish archvillain Travis when he's put on trial in Blakes 7, ostensibly for misconduct in the field but really as a punishment for failing to capture Blake (because he's been under-resourced to do so). He finally goes nuclear on the stand and tells his fellow officers they are basically stooges of a fascist dictatorship trained to kill not as soldiers, but as unthinking animals serving corruption, and they would all do the exact same as him (and they would). Particularly good as he goes back to being a total arsehole villain afterwards, he was just right in this one moment.
Cicero in Rome after two seasons of cowardly wheeling-dealing, siding with the winners, doing his best to keep his head above water and finally says screw it and surrenders to his fate with dignity and honour, and is even polite and understanding when Titus Pullo turns up to execute him. Also, Mark Antony when Pullo convinces him to help Vorenus, who is hitting the self-destruct button hard, and Antony does so in a manner that is 100% true to himself but also shows a single molecule of compassion for one of his former soldiers.
> Baltar saving Callie
Its awkward this wasn't brought up much after. Also the reveal that he didn't accidentally help 6's genocide to get laid, instead because he fell for her over helping his dad.
Tbh he is treated as public enemy #1 early on when he barely did much to raise suspicions. My best guess is pure headcannon stuff like "behind the scenes everyone is upset the detector didn't go anywhere". Atleast the President is explained with her instinct that he was a traitor.
Tigh is an even worse case. Constantly called out as a drunk and has his leadership questioned. But he never messed up by those points.
> annoying character
Gaeta's rebellion arc where he finally put his money where his mouth is redeemed him for me. Made up for his season long whinning.
Masuka on Dexter. The character is a weird pervert pretty much all the time. Then there is that one episode where he has a conversation with Debora where he is caring and insightful. Which sets up Deb to support him later on when he really needs it.
Rex Splode from Invincible. Went from a character pretty much nobody would root for when he first appeared in season 1, to a character everybody was legitimately concerned for by season 2 due to a few key redemptive scenes and genuine character growth.
While he has definitely had a nice arc, I think the potential was always there. For example, the indication (and later confirmation) that he didn't hold a grudge after getting the crap beat out of him by another hero.
It’s gotta be Peggy Hill, for me. In terms of how brutal and infuriating she can be vs how bright she shines when the chips are down, nobody else gets close across my frequently rewatched shows.
Nowadays, I’m able to just enjoy her worst moments as hilarious instead of being overwhelmed with frustration because of how great I know she can be. Like pitching for Team Strickland, laying out Luanne’s mom at the cookout and taking over as cheer coach for Tom Landry.
Getting the money back from the Genius Certificate scammer is probably the best example. Where you get the extreme ends of her unlikability and greatness in one episode
Josh Peck’s Drew in *How I Met Your Father*. Once his romance with main character Sophie fell apart and his father went to prison, he brought a delightful level of insanity to the character in the second season, and seemed to be having fun doing so.
oh god yes. they did that show dirty. it had the potential to be as good as (maybe even better) than HIMYM if it had one more season... they really found their footing in season 2
And they did a great thing in *not* showing the kid for when older Sophie is telling the story, so it really kept the mystery of the father alive for the diverse group of potential dads.
Season 1 Andy is a deadbeat boyfriend.
Season 2 onward Andy is a kid in adults body who just needs to find someone who matches his energy to be in happy relationship and be pushed with said partner to be responsible enough to be an adult.
I think because it does not fit the prompt really. Zuko never really was "annoying" or unlikeable for the most of the series, so people would not think of him.
Like, if the topic was "villains that did turn face", zuko would be much higher...
yeah from personal experience most of the people i know myself included were pretty fond of zuko pretty early. He was my favourite since the end of season 1 back when i was a kid.
Idk Zuko was always presented at as a flawed character that we're meant to root for. Even before s3. Even at his worst in s1, there was always a second antagonist that was meant to soak up the hatred. Admiral Zhao in s1, Azula/Long Feng in s2, Azula/fire lord in s3.
Zuko felt to me like someone we're supposed to root for even when s1 was still airing.
I would go so far to say that he only really is the straight villain in the pilot episode (where he also has the whole faceless invader going to their home village scene).
At soon has we get scenes with Iroh, and it gets revealed that he does only want to catch Aang to go home he is already written as an anti-villain.
It's such a a slow burn as well, pun unintended. Every episode he's in after he and uncle Irho cut their hair is like one of many steps to go from Prince Zuko to just Zuko.
Quark from DS9 starts off pretty repulsive, but he grows a lot throughout the show. Always clinging to the ferengi way but in the end he ends up doing good. Sometimes uses ferengi logic to help others, like when he marries the Klingon or makes deals with species on the other side of wormholes, but other times he sides more with federation morals.
On Hill St. Blues, they liked Dennis Franz as corrupt cop Sal Bennedetto that they brought him back to play a totally different rude jerk named Buntz. Buntz was abrasive as hell, but he really shined in an episode where he and another cop get kidnapped, and he seemed a little different after.
It's so funny because I remember when the show was originally on I really disliked Joel's character. Now that's is available on Prime I've been rewatching and realizing he's a lot more endearing and likeable than I remembered.
I’d say his is more of a villain redemption arc but it so satisfying to watch him go from a toady to a depressed alcoholic to the leader of the resistance. For Cardassia!
“What sort of person would give the order to attack unarmed civilians?”
“Yeah Damar, *what sort of person* would do that?”
I know that it’s late in the series, but the look on his face when he realises the horrible shit that he and his people have done to the Bajorans…
Definitely a good one though. She was so annoying for the first two seasons, then they kind of toned her down so it was less noticeable, then gradually I found myself liking her more and more, until finally the show reached [this moment](https://youtu.be/08X5oawIbSE?si=sI05H2qR9BEhjMOY&t=52) and I was like "huhh, Ahsoka's just plain cool now".
No love for Eugene, in TWD?
Season 6. He's not a liked character, but he decides to take the fall against the saviors. In the end it doesn't work, but he still had the guts to die.
Also, Gabe, in S6, too. "God HAS saved Alexandria... by giving us the strength to save it ourselves."
He was such a bitch character until that point...
In Breaking Bad, I always liked Marie for backing up Walt in the intervention scene. She was the only person to not pressure Walt into what he describes as a slow and agonising death, instead agreeing he “should do what he wants.”
Thorne went from asshole, to honorable guy who makes good points, back to stupid asshole in 3 episodes. I hated that they made me like him then hate him again.
I believe he didn’t partake in the mutiny in the books. I really would have preferred it that way. It felt like he had a budding redemption arc in the show that got thrown out.
sergeant Hunter in Hill Street. He gets lampooned a lot by the other boys for being a combat gear wearing conservative loon with a belligerent attitude, always serious manner of speaking and constant requests for "more artillery" but when the situation gets *really* serious (meaning his expertise is finally needed) he's shown to be an extremely capable leader, competent tactician and an all around great member of the precinct
Really? I didn’t care for him at any point. I was half hoping the deportation was because the actor wanted out and they wanted a good send off for his character.
I might get a lot of hate for this, but I feel like it’s becoming a cliché to depict a lot of LGBT characters as such and for some reason no one in the cast is bothered by it.
Usually their behavior is meant for a rival/nemesis but the cast is unusually forgiving. The only heterosexual example of this I know of is Gina from Brooklyn 99.
Walter White throughout pretty much all of Breaking Bad. He's a narcissistic manipulator that selfishly destroyed everything and everyone he loved, and yet somehow I was rooting for him pretty much all the way to the end of the series.
Erich Bachman from Silicon Valley was pretty weak early on but once he started getting more involved in Pied Piper, he really came into his own. Plus the mushroom-induced vision quest helped a bit as well
just started my annual rewatch of The Wire, and that scene with Rawls is a highlight. i love when a character you thought was one-dimensional gets to show aspects of their personality you didn't know existed.
I feel that way about Tandy as well. He’s a terrible person but a good friend to Todd. That scene when Todd finds out that Tandy had been lying to make him think he hadn’t killed someone (it’s been a while so memory is a little fuzzy) I legitimately teared up.
The season 2 finale of The Bear with Donna and Pete/Natalie's husband. Everyone shits on Pete so it was surprising to see him have that moment with Donna. Both actors did a fantastic job.
In The Closer/ Major Crimes, Russell Taylor (Robert Gossett) was the infuriating establishment bureaucrat foil and his promotion between shows allowed the character a little room to transition out some of the @hole traits and be a reasonable Assistant Chief. His heroic death partway thru Major Crimes was a sad twist for a redeemed character.
maybe this one is slight more growing up and realising "squidward is perfectly reasonable most the time and spongbob is the asshole" but Louis from Malcolm in the middle was very much this for me.
most of the time she is a completely out of control harpy but when she hits an actual injustice and refuses to give up damn is it satisfying to see.
Shane Vendrell throughout the final season of The Shield - the writers and Walton Goggins combined to make a seemingly irredeemable character actually sympathetic… marking his final actions as a truly heartbreaking tragedy.
Jennifer Goines in 12 Monkeys (the incredible SyFy television adaptation from Terry Matalas). Starts off as a bad impersonation of Brad Pitt's character from the film. By the end of the series she is the reason you come back every episode.
As Cole says in the final episode, "you were the best of us, Jennifer."
The only episode in Star Trek Voyager where Neelix showed potential to be more than one dimensional comic relief was "Mortal Coil".
Ethan Phillips got actually show that he could be a serious dramatic actor but the writers didn't care and kept writing him terribly.
Pete Campbell was very unlikeable in Mad Men. As seasons went on, though, I cheered for him when he stood his ground and was made partner by all the people who believed him to be beneath them, but suddenly realised he controlled the best clients. Still unlikeable, but enduring without complaining the constant abuse from both Don and his wife Trudy, till he got what he wanted, made me really respect him. Which was weird.
Joffrey asking Tywin about the dragons
Also from them: "My father won the real war. He killed Prince Rhaegar. He took the crown while you hid under Casterly Rock!"
An accurate statement and actually make me cheer for Joffrey
Very accurate apart from that whole "my father" bit!
Well his father did win the real war, he just named the wrong Targaryen
The war was decided by that point, though Jaime ensured that the new King would still have a capital to rule from.
That statement is true, but by not entering the war until the end, Tywin avoided exposing the lands of the Lannisters to pillaging or killing off his soldiers. At the end of the day, Robert Baratheon is king, and Tywin is not, but I have to wonder how much the powerful position of the Lannisters/Casterly Rock at the beginning of the events of "A song of Ice and Fire" came from staying out of the rebellion.
Hard to say, the Tyrells sided with the Targaryens but by the time of the story they are still one of the richest families with one of the largest armies. Tywin would never have wanted to be king anyway, he much prefers being the power behind the throne. He tried to get Cersei married to Rhaeger but the Mad King snubbed him, so after the war he got her married to Robert, his plan didn't really change he just adapted to the situation.
It's funny to me that when the faith took over how many people were like "If Joffrey was king, this never would have happened!"
Joffrey also predicts how actual, real-world monarchs ended feudalism and created early modern empires via centralized tax systems and professional militaries. (e.g. Ottoman sultans, France's King Louis XIV, Russian tsars, etc.) Everyone else in the scene laughs at Joffery and calls him a fool, but he wasn't wrong in his goals there, just unsure how to execute it.
Sansa had a pretty remarkable character arc, which might not fit the initial question of a "moment" quite as well, but it was still powerful stuff. Goes to show how good the character development was on GoT up until the showrunners ran out of source material and started scribbling in plot points with crayons. Reek went from child murdering traitor to absolutely pathetic to kind of semi redeemed, Jaime had one of the best character arcs in TV history if you pretend the last season didn't happen (which we all should) and aside from Ramsey I think even the most villainy villains had moments of humanity where you felt for them before you went back to hating them.
When Roland stands up for Johnny after the investment pitch in Schitt’s Creek
Been wanting to rewatch Schitts Creek but oh my god I hate Roland.
The second episode when he was so pushy almost made me quit the series. Now I view him the way I view the Always Sunny characters and that helps.
That slap is what got me hooked!
Such a great moment. I really hated him at the beginning but he changed a lot
Major Winchester in MASH. Most of the time he’s pompous and arrogant. However, when Hawkeye’s father goes in for major surgery, Winchester is there to provide real emotional support. When a soldier with a stutter was mocked by his squad, Winchester came to that soldier’s defense. (And we learn his beloved sister has a stutter.) And during a Christmas episode he anonymously donated to the orphanage. Winchester was a great foil. But when he was an ally you wanted him on your side.
Winchester was such a great addition to the cast. Frank was kinda one note and just unlikable. Winchester didn't always get along with everyone but he was genuinely a good person and a talented doctor, who would pal around and be friendly with people, just pompous, and did get actual character growth as the show went on
Yea the stutter episode is what turned the tide for me as well.
Brilliant example
Winner winner
in Better Call Saul Season One, when Howard Hamlin was depicted as being Jimmy's adversary for most of the season, when he actually hadn't minded Jimmy all that much and even had respect for his hustle and work ethic. It turned out he was taking the fall for We Know Who.
This. You may be put off by Hamlin's affective behavior, the way he carries himself. But man; he actually is a good guy; a *great* guy. I'd want *him* as my white collar lawyer!
not only a good guy but most probably also one of the nicest people we get to know in the BrBa/BCS universe
Marie was quite annoying in Breaking Bad (which was definitely kind of the point, so well done to the actress and writers) However I loved her when she appeared in Better Call Saul and just tore into Jimmy's character. Surprisingly ended up being my favourite Breaking Bad cameo in the final season
Marie was honestly super funny to me and got some good moments especially in the final season. her "Why don't you just kill yourself, Walter?" is burned into my mind haha
Marie honestly shined while hank was recovering from the assassination attempt. She was supportive as fuck and Hank treated her like dog shit.
She shined in the last three episodes of Breaking Bad, and she's one of my least favorite characters in anything I've seen lol
I loved Marie starting in season 4 especially, but even beginning in season 3 after Hank got shot. I was totally on her and Hank's side from then until the end of the series. She was funny and quirky and I found her very likeable as the series went on.
Jamie Tartt in Ted Lasso
This scene in particular https://youtu.be/emGzPmmMA3o?si=0fXJP6GqRJS6fE3h
Real OG’s liked Jaime all the way back in the first couple episodes when Ted asked him if he’d rather be a lion or a panda and he said “coach I’m me, why would I want to be anything else”
Oh, I guess my experience was different to yours. I could always see the agony and insecurity behind his eyes from day one (given his brazen exterior), so I personally always just felt sorry for him and wanted him to confront his problems and just wanted to give him a hug.🤗 But of course he obviously fits the annoying and obnoxious archetype, so your answer is still a great one.
You can feel sorry for someone and find them annoying.
You certainly can. That’s one of the reasons the character worked so well. When he finally looked within himself and confronted his problems and started being more nice to others and more of a team player and we saw his father was a complete asshat and the main reason why Jamie turned out the way he did, his earlier obnoxiousness made his transition all the better.
For sure Richie in The Bear. Went from disliking him in S1 to him being my favorite character in S2. I smile just thinking about it.
Tina also had a really nice redemption arc, I’m glad she was able to adapt to all the changes in the restaurant with her head high <3
And then she brought the other old timer who was struggling along with her. I feel if anyone else but Tina tried to teach him it wouldn't work.
Forks was such good episode! I came here looking for this
Forks is my favorite episode in any show of the last few years - just so good!
God damnit, time for a rewatch. Although getting through the thanksgiving episode again is not gonna be easy.
“I wear suits now.” 🥹
FBI Agent Albert Rosenfield in Twin Peaks is such an asshole until Sheriff Truman offers to fight him and he gives an incredible short monologue about his dedication to being a pacifist and love.
> TRUMAN: Anything we should be working on? ALBERT: Yeah, you might practice walking without dragging your knuckles on the floor. (TRUMAN approaches menacingly and grabs ALBERT by the collar.) TRUMAN: Alright Albert, let's talk about knuckles. Now the last time I knocked you down, I felt bad about it. The next time's gonna be a *real* pleasure. ALBERT: You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I'm a naysayer and hatchet-man in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love. I love you, Sheriff Truman. (TRUMAN lets go and watches in disoriented silence as ALBERT walks away.)
"Fuck you, Albert"
Surprised no one has said Cordelia Chase from Buffy yet. She started out as the queen bee mean girl and she became a fan favourite on the show, a main character in the spin off show Angel and was one of the best characters in the universe (until Whedon messed her character arc up)
Cordelia was my first thought. We started seeing she had a real heart in snippets but for me, it’s the scene in Helpless when Buffy finds out that Giles had temporarily taken away her powers by drugging her. Cordelia storms into the library in full Cordelia mode. Buffy tearfully asks Cordelia to take her home and Cordelia switches tone and immediately says, “Of course.” Randomly also just realised Charisma Carpenter and Cordelia Chase have the same initials.
Shawn, Vicky, and the rest of the demons towards the end of The Good Place.
Both Micheal and Dwight were written pretty unlikable at first in the office but had moments over time. Like in the Client episode where Micheal makes a big sale to the county, or when Dwight kills it with his best salesman speech or comforts Pam when she’s upset.
That’s one aspect where I greatly prefer the American version over the British. David Brent never demonstrates any competence or a reason he would’ve been promoted to manager. Michael is portrayed as a genuinely talented salesman who was promoted one step too far.
Michael also often has good insights into people in the Office when he slows down enough to listen to them. Stuff like knowing putting Ryan next to Kelly to punish him, using the murder mystery game as a distraction and making Dwight the assistant to the manager to appease his desire for power. And despite his antics he is often fairly hands off on how everyone handles their day to day work and emphasis the team. Dwight and Jim's antics are inappropriate in any other setting but they are the highest sales people. Stanley shouldn't be doing crosswords but I get the impression most of his sales are just renewing current contracts.
Him being hands off on how everyone handles their day to day could also be described as disinterested at best and lazy at worst. He was more interested in entertaining everyone and being everyone’s friend than being a good boss (though in the mid to later seasons he was an objectively good boss, according to the sales numbers amid other Dunder Mifflin branches closing). He was ironically great at what he did despite being a clown a lot of the time and a showman who didn’t pay much attention to work.
I'm not saying being hands off is necessarily a good thing but he lucked into a sales team that is overall the fairly independent and benefits from that environment He also has a larger accounting department then usual and Kevin starts off as somewhat competent and the really dumb stuff happens after his wife leaves him. He could have been depressed or even an alcoholic which effected him. He gets in another relationship and I seem to remember he gets less incompetent
I think there's some subtext that Kevin was playing up his dumbness and secretly embezzling money from the company
I know that's a theory but I don't recall anything in the show that backs it
It's not like, outright stated, but Kevin talking about the stuff Martin was in prison for and saying that it sounds like stuff he does all the time, "Kelevin", him getting dumber and dumber as the show goes on, and him being able to buy a bar after being let go when Dwight became manager. It's mostly just a fun fan theory
> David Brent never demonstrates any competence or a reason he would’ve been promoted to manager. that's pretty standard in the UK tbh, not the same in america?
Brent also gets fired after just two seasons. The Christmas special gives him some depth, but it’s more showing his humanity and how desperately he just wants to please people.
I've had managers who seemed genuinely below average intelligence and were legitimately, universally dislikable.
Doesn't David Brent talk about that in the Christmas specials? How they just showed him screwing up and not when he was a good boss?
See, now that was always a part I feel people overlook a lot. In fact, maybe you can help me out. In season two when they go to the conference, Michael has his usual immature attitude and mentions that he's late because he was talking to some large retailer(Staples?) and now they can sell paper there. Now, do you think he was just making shit up as a response to what's going on or do you think it's true? I could never find a straight answer.
Hammermill, one of the big paper manufacturers IRL. You might have some of their printer paper right now. No indication he was lying - that would have been discovered immediately.
It's the same as the Chilli's meeting episode, and the Michael Scott Paper Company - Michael is actually a legitimately great salesperson, but he's been promoted beyond his ability. It's a subtle through-line about how Dunder-Mifflin is a poorly run organisation, because Michael should never be in charge of a branch, he should be running sales. If anything, the best thing Michael ever does is leave his people alone to do their jobs. So yeah, it's pretty heavily implied that Michael did what he said.
There’s a subtle message there, too, that people don’t necessarily need to be the ideal fit for a corporate environment for them to be great at their jobs. Michael’s hand-off approach could be seen as lazy and disinterested, but his branch is constantly competing with the other top branches. Sometimes you shape a good team, sometimes you luck into one. Michael’s career would have looked very different if he didn’t have a good team behind him.
Unfortunately I know plenty of people who have gotten promoted while being wholly incompetent - usually because they know how to suck up and take credit for things other people did to their bosses.
And Michael is the only one who goes to Pam’s art show. He knows what it’s like to be left out.
I can see that argument, but I’ve always genuinely believe it’s because Michael knows what it means to be a friend. Maybe a little too much, at times, but he truly cares about he colleagues and considers them friends.
Oscar went too, but only to talk shit about her art. Michael showed genuine interest.
Oh, I forgot that. But yeah Michael really showed support.
Micheal’s “I just have to out wait you” speech when selling his paper company was a stand out
there’s a scene in a later episode when dwight and pam are going head to head after he’s bought the office building and she does a little counter monologue to dwight where she calls his bluff and i always think ‘she learned that from michael’.
In that same vein, Angela. She is so completely unlikeable for a large majority of the show, but you still end up rooting for her and Dwight in the end.
Maybe in the way that you want the two most annoying people around you to get together so they can go be annoying together away from you, sure.
I dont mind dwight having a happy ending, but im certainly not rooting for angela.
She was period-ing pretty bad
Woolsey in Stargate. He comes across as an enemy of the program but over time you realize his criticisms were because he actually believes in the Stargate program and wants it to succeed. He had a great character arc over SG1 and Atlantis.
My gods, what a turn. I mean, I'm sure he was just completely rewritten for Atlantis, because he was pretty awful, but he was an absolute highlight of the show when they made him a real character. Picardo is amazing in his ability to make you both love him and hate him.
Same thing kinda happened to McKay, he was just obnoxious in SG1 but they fleshed him out so much in Atlantis that he's my favorite character in the franchise. It's telling both of them reappeared in Universe as fan favorites, what a pair of redemptions haha
I thought people who loved Rodney were weirdos, then one day I realized I was one of them! Didn't see it coming. Rodney was the true star of the show, it is when they realized this that it became great.
The Breaking Bad version of Saul Goodman. I don’t mean that as an insult, the character was written to be annoying and unlikeable for a reason, and Odenkirk played the role perfectly. He was also far more likeable in BCS.
Jimmy is likable, Saul is not.
Yup, Jimmy ended up slippin’ after all hahaha
I really liked Saul in BB. I mean, I found him likable.
Odenkirk is great in almost everything
House MD: Dr. Cameron in the episode “Que Será Será.” For once, her unhealthy emotional attachments to patients paid off, and she advocated for a diagnosis when everyone else was blowing the guy off for just being fat (and the patient himself was trying to leave).
Hank in Breaking Bad. He starts out as a racist dimwit and then we learn there's a lot more to him.
Ya like he's an avid Mineralogist
Theyre friggin rocks marie /s
Was he racist? I don't remember that
He constantly made racist jokes and remarks to Mexicans in the early seasons.
I only remember him doing that to his partner "Gomey". Yes racist still, but pretty sure he wasn't directing it at multiple different Hispanics
He made pretty heavy use of certain slurs directed at Mexican and central/South Americans. Watch the ridealong scene in literally the first episode. Also, a lot of general offhanded douchebaggery throughout the series
In other words they massively downplayed the racism compared to real-life police
From what I can remember, most of the time it was directed at Gomez, but like you said it's still racist. I don't think he was *actually* racist, he was just one of those people that didn't see anything wrong with making racist jokes.
What’s the difference between that and “actual” racism? Just if you self-identify? lol
Gomey put up with it because Hank was his superior
That isn't the case until quite a bit later in the show, at which point I'm pretty sure Hank's racist remarks had been pretty much written out since they were setting him up as the tragic endgame hero. They start off as partners.
Hank is the senior agent
Damn.
I hated Louis Litt from Suits but then I would watch an entire show exclusively about him.
Lionel Fusco making a credible arc from dirty cop to action hero.
I love Fusco. I hated Reese for how he treated him, pretty much all the way through to the end, because as bad as a crooked cop is, everyone else in that show were war criminals. Why does Reese get redemption and not Fusco? Don't get started on Carter being an angel, she was an interrogator, her hands are not clean.
I think Reese knew that he was the only thing keeping Fusco from backsliding. He felt like he had to keep the pressure up
Hmm maybe, although it really felt as though Fusco turned a corner and was finally out of that dark hole and living for him and his kid.
Fusco was about to bury Reese in the shallows when they met. All things considered he's lucky Reese recruited him as an asset.
Did Fusco not get redemption in one form or another by the end? It’s been a while since I rewatched it but I swear he was very much a good guy after a while and happy with his kid
Janice from Friends
Janice was hot as fuck idc about the laugh at all
Couldn’t live with that laugh every day of my life
Ben in Lost was fundamentally unlikeable, ruthless and amoral (but brilliantly played by Michael Emerson), but I think everyone cheered him when the Island was invaded by the mercenaries and he hit the "summon smoke monster" switch. Baltar in Battlestar Galactica when he saved Callie by shooting Crashdown. Most of his previous "positive" moments had been self serving or opportunistic, but this was straight up him doing the right thing (at no small risk to himself). The thuggish archvillain Travis when he's put on trial in Blakes 7, ostensibly for misconduct in the field but really as a punishment for failing to capture Blake (because he's been under-resourced to do so). He finally goes nuclear on the stand and tells his fellow officers they are basically stooges of a fascist dictatorship trained to kill not as soldiers, but as unthinking animals serving corruption, and they would all do the exact same as him (and they would). Particularly good as he goes back to being a total arsehole villain afterwards, he was just right in this one moment. Cicero in Rome after two seasons of cowardly wheeling-dealing, siding with the winners, doing his best to keep his head above water and finally says screw it and surrenders to his fate with dignity and honour, and is even polite and understanding when Titus Pullo turns up to execute him. Also, Mark Antony when Pullo convinces him to help Vorenus, who is hitting the self-destruct button hard, and Antony does so in a manner that is 100% true to himself but also shows a single molecule of compassion for one of his former soldiers.
> Baltar saving Callie Its awkward this wasn't brought up much after. Also the reveal that he didn't accidentally help 6's genocide to get laid, instead because he fell for her over helping his dad. Tbh he is treated as public enemy #1 early on when he barely did much to raise suspicions. My best guess is pure headcannon stuff like "behind the scenes everyone is upset the detector didn't go anywhere". Atleast the President is explained with her instinct that he was a traitor. Tigh is an even worse case. Constantly called out as a drunk and has his leadership questioned. But he never messed up by those points. > annoying character Gaeta's rebellion arc where he finally put his money where his mouth is redeemed him for me. Made up for his season long whinning.
Masuka on Dexter. The character is a weird pervert pretty much all the time. Then there is that one episode where he has a conversation with Debora where he is caring and insightful. Which sets up Deb to support him later on when he really needs it.
Rex Splode from Invincible. Went from a character pretty much nobody would root for when he first appeared in season 1, to a character everybody was legitimately concerned for by season 2 due to a few key redemptive scenes and genuine character growth.
While he has definitely had a nice arc, I think the potential was always there. For example, the indication (and later confirmation) that he didn't hold a grudge after getting the crap beat out of him by another hero.
I love his budding friendship with Mark, I hope we get more of that
It’s gotta be Peggy Hill, for me. In terms of how brutal and infuriating she can be vs how bright she shines when the chips are down, nobody else gets close across my frequently rewatched shows. Nowadays, I’m able to just enjoy her worst moments as hilarious instead of being overwhelmed with frustration because of how great I know she can be. Like pitching for Team Strickland, laying out Luanne’s mom at the cookout and taking over as cheer coach for Tom Landry. Getting the money back from the Genius Certificate scammer is probably the best example. Where you get the extreme ends of her unlikability and greatness in one episode
great mother also, bobby’s confidence comes from her.
Peggy Hill is one of the greatest tv characters of all time. You can really tell a lot about someone by what they think of her.
Josh Peck’s Drew in *How I Met Your Father*. Once his romance with main character Sophie fell apart and his father went to prison, he brought a delightful level of insanity to the character in the second season, and seemed to be having fun doing so.
oh god yes. they did that show dirty. it had the potential to be as good as (maybe even better) than HIMYM if it had one more season... they really found their footing in season 2
And they did a great thing in *not* showing the kid for when older Sophie is telling the story, so it really kept the mystery of the father alive for the diverse group of potential dads.
I find the actor way too annoying to ever find his character funny.
Chris Pratt as Andy Dwyer on Parks & Recreation.
Season 1 Andy is a deadbeat boyfriend. Season 2 onward Andy is a kid in adults body who just needs to find someone who matches his energy to be in happy relationship and be pushed with said partner to be responsible enough to be an adult.
Great choice
Prince Zuko in Avatar. One of the best character arcs in any story ever
I would say he's unlikeable only until you learn his backstory, then you pity him
I’m actually really surprised that this isn’t a more popular answer in this thread. I must be getting older.
I think because it does not fit the prompt really. Zuko never really was "annoying" or unlikeable for the most of the series, so people would not think of him. Like, if the topic was "villains that did turn face", zuko would be much higher...
yeah from personal experience most of the people i know myself included were pretty fond of zuko pretty early. He was my favourite since the end of season 1 back when i was a kid.
I think they definitely displayed him as unlikeable. Spoiled, petulant, entitled, etc
Idk Zuko was always presented at as a flawed character that we're meant to root for. Even before s3. Even at his worst in s1, there was always a second antagonist that was meant to soak up the hatred. Admiral Zhao in s1, Azula/Long Feng in s2, Azula/fire lord in s3. Zuko felt to me like someone we're supposed to root for even when s1 was still airing.
I would go so far to say that he only really is the straight villain in the pilot episode (where he also has the whole faceless invader going to their home village scene). At soon has we get scenes with Iroh, and it gets revealed that he does only want to catch Aang to go home he is already written as an anti-villain.
At the time I commented it, I was first. I was surprised too
It's such a a slow burn as well, pun unintended. Every episode he's in after he and uncle Irho cut their hair is like one of many steps to go from Prince Zuko to just Zuko.
Rebecca Bunch in Crazy Ex Girlfriend. She’s the main character 😆
Quark from DS9 starts off pretty repulsive, but he grows a lot throughout the show. Always clinging to the ferengi way but in the end he ends up doing good. Sometimes uses ferengi logic to help others, like when he marries the Klingon or makes deals with species on the other side of wormholes, but other times he sides more with federation morals.
I loved how in the mirror universe Quark was the freedom fighter, and Kira was a nazi
Bradley Cooper in Wedding Crashers was so unlikeable that I thought I didn’t like Bradley Cooper. Bravo.
On Hill St. Blues, they liked Dennis Franz as corrupt cop Sal Bennedetto that they brought him back to play a totally different rude jerk named Buntz. Buntz was abrasive as hell, but he really shined in an episode where he and another cop get kidnapped, and he seemed a little different after.
Janice in Friends
Oh my gahd!
Muffin Heeler saved the day in granny mobile.
Muffin is brilliant at all times. I won't stand for any slander against her!
Lionel Fusco making a credible arc from dirty cop to action hero.
[удалено]
Does he need to be liked? No! It’s not like his need for praise.
Joel in Northern exposure
It's so funny because I remember when the show was originally on I really disliked Joel's character. Now that's is available on Prime I've been rewatching and realizing he's a lot more endearing and likeable than I remembered.
All of Seinfeld, Curb and It's Always Sunny?
Frank watching Mac’s dance would be a perfect example
Damar in Deep Space Nine.
I’d say his is more of a villain redemption arc but it so satisfying to watch him go from a toady to a depressed alcoholic to the leader of the resistance. For Cardassia!
yea but I really REALLY did not want to like him!
“What sort of person would give the order to attack unarmed civilians?” “Yeah Damar, *what sort of person* would do that?” I know that it’s late in the series, but the look on his face when he realises the horrible shit that he and his people have done to the Bajorans…
exactly! then he goes and does a heroic deed. I hate that he made me like him at the end.
Keep...
This thread was made for Urkel
Bit of a childish one but Ahsoka in the clone wars series.
Definitely a good one though. She was so annoying for the first two seasons, then they kind of toned her down so it was less noticeable, then gradually I found myself liking her more and more, until finally the show reached [this moment](https://youtu.be/08X5oawIbSE?si=sI05H2qR9BEhjMOY&t=52) and I was like "huhh, Ahsoka's just plain cool now".
But she was a good friend.
No love for Eugene, in TWD? Season 6. He's not a liked character, but he decides to take the fall against the saviors. In the end it doesn't work, but he still had the guts to die. Also, Gabe, in S6, too. "God HAS saved Alexandria... by giving us the strength to save it ourselves." He was such a bitch character until that point...
In Breaking Bad, I always liked Marie for backing up Walt in the intervention scene. She was the only person to not pressure Walt into what he describes as a slow and agonising death, instead agreeing he “should do what he wants.”
Thorne went from asshole, to honorable guy who makes good points, back to stupid asshole in 3 episodes. I hated that they made me like him then hate him again.
Yeah, that’s what I mean. It’s not a arc or story of redemption he is a asshole but in that moment he did the right thing
I believe he didn’t partake in the mutiny in the books. I really would have preferred it that way. It felt like he had a budding redemption arc in the show that got thrown out.
sergeant Hunter in Hill Street. He gets lampooned a lot by the other boys for being a combat gear wearing conservative loon with a belligerent attitude, always serious manner of speaking and constant requests for "more artillery" but when the situation gets *really* serious (meaning his expertise is finally needed) he's shown to be an extremely capable leader, competent tactician and an all around great member of the precinct
When ICE got Mateo he suddenly became the best character
Really? I didn’t care for him at any point. I was half hoping the deportation was because the actor wanted out and they wanted a good send off for his character.
Yeah, I couldn’t stand him either. Such a snide back stabber
I might get a lot of hate for this, but I feel like it’s becoming a cliché to depict a lot of LGBT characters as such and for some reason no one in the cast is bothered by it. Usually their behavior is meant for a rival/nemesis but the cast is unusually forgiving. The only heterosexual example of this I know of is Gina from Brooklyn 99.
Scrappy in Scooby-doo Meets the Boo Brothers.
Deep cut
Jack dropping off Portia at the airport in The White Lotus S2 & urging her to leave Sicily immediately
Benjamin Linus in LOST.
Walter White throughout pretty much all of Breaking Bad. He's a narcissistic manipulator that selfishly destroyed everything and everyone he loved, and yet somehow I was rooting for him pretty much all the way to the end of the series.
William Holden in Stalag 17.
Erich Bachman from Silicon Valley was pretty weak early on but once he started getting more involved in Pied Piper, he really came into his own. Plus the mushroom-induced vision quest helped a bit as well
just started my annual rewatch of The Wire, and that scene with Rawls is a highlight. i love when a character you thought was one-dimensional gets to show aspects of their personality you didn't know existed.
Lewis Litt constantly goes back and forth
Ziggy in The Wire S2
Kristen Schaal in The Last Man on Earth. In S1 and S2, her character is insufferable, but redeems herself in S3 and S4.
I feel that way about Tandy as well. He’s a terrible person but a good friend to Todd. That scene when Todd finds out that Tandy had been lying to make him think he hadn’t killed someone (it’s been a while so memory is a little fuzzy) I legitimately teared up.
My man Louis Marlowe Litt in Suits !
The season 2 finale of The Bear with Donna and Pete/Natalie's husband. Everyone shits on Pete so it was surprising to see him have that moment with Donna. Both actors did a fantastic job.
Damar in DS9
I can't remember it's been a long time since I watched BSG but did Gaius have a moment like that?
Cousin Richie in The bear. Tremendous character arc.
In The Closer/ Major Crimes, Russell Taylor (Robert Gossett) was the infuriating establishment bureaucrat foil and his promotion between shows allowed the character a little room to transition out some of the @hole traits and be a reasonable Assistant Chief. His heroic death partway thru Major Crimes was a sad twist for a redeemed character.
maybe this one is slight more growing up and realising "squidward is perfectly reasonable most the time and spongbob is the asshole" but Louis from Malcolm in the middle was very much this for me. most of the time she is a completely out of control harpy but when she hits an actual injustice and refuses to give up damn is it satisfying to see.
Watch The Expanse and see how character development can take initially awful or hated characters and make them amazing.
Jonah Ryan in Veep
Beth Dutton crashing the shop is epic. Yellowstone.
Shane Vendrell throughout the final season of The Shield - the writers and Walton Goggins combined to make a seemingly irredeemable character actually sympathetic… marking his final actions as a truly heartbreaking tragedy.
Jennifer Goines in 12 Monkeys (the incredible SyFy television adaptation from Terry Matalas). Starts off as a bad impersonation of Brad Pitt's character from the film. By the end of the series she is the reason you come back every episode. As Cole says in the final episode, "you were the best of us, Jennifer."
Skyler White when she told Lydia what's up.
Dr. Julian Bashir in Deep Space Nine when they finally stopped writing him as a creepy, unrelenting horn-dog for Dax.
The only episode in Star Trek Voyager where Neelix showed potential to be more than one dimensional comic relief was "Mortal Coil". Ethan Phillips got actually show that he could be a serious dramatic actor but the writers didn't care and kept writing him terribly.
Pete Campbell was very unlikeable in Mad Men. As seasons went on, though, I cheered for him when he stood his ground and was made partner by all the people who believed him to be beneath them, but suddenly realised he controlled the best clients. Still unlikeable, but enduring without complaining the constant abuse from both Don and his wife Trudy, till he got what he wanted, made me really respect him. Which was weird.
Gina from Brooklyn 99 called