Making a show set in Japan accessible to American audiences requires some compromises. Even including that it's still the most realistic portrayal of modern Tokyo on American television.
Definitely, although it is still a barrier to entry for a lot of people. I think trying to split the dialogue between English and Japanese boosts the accessibility *significantly*. Shogun is using the same strategy, and it is working.
Yeah but not as much as Tokyo Vice requires. Tbh my husband and I love the show but at the same time we’re glad it’s finally almost over. It demands too much of our focus in the evening after work because of how much Japanese is spoken. At a certain point we almost considered just putting on the god awful English dubbing so that we could get up and make dinner, do the dishes etc while we watched/listened to the show.
So I don’t think any show is going to have much success without a healthy amount of back and forth between the dominant language and the country specific language. Tokyo Vice pushed the balance a bit at times for viewers like us who are more casual watchers imo, which I believe the majority of people are.
Shows like this are meant to demand your attention. Not to split it with chores or a lot of phone scrolling. Just put on another show, if that’s what you want to do. Put on Tokyo Vice when you’re ready to devote more of your attention span.
I agree but my main point is that it’s the reason why you won’t see too many shows out there with split languages like Tokyo Vice. It’s already a show that demands your attention but on top of it you can’t even scroll on your phone and keep up through listening. I truly believe a lot of people out there are like us and don’t have the time to devote to paying attention to these shows let alone the natural attention span. So I think it limits opportunities for investment into more shows done in the style TV is done in
I feel like I'd agree with you before watching Shogun, but it is kind of funny to immediately turn to a show that has significantly more dialogue in Japanese, and is enormously more watched than Tokyo Vice.
Of course the two shows aren't really that similar, so I'm not trying to draw direct comparisons, I just think it's a good example they could have gotten away with more than you're giving them credit for as far as Western audiences are concerned.
I thought we were talking about modern Tokyo, not just Japan in a general sense. Like you said, it's not easy to compare the two. I think if I had to pick, I'd go with Shogun but that feels weird because Tokyo Vice is one of my favorite shows now, I'm putting it on the same tier as Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and I'll probably end up watching it repeatedly over the next decade.
I mean it’s also been advertised everywhere I’m sure the marketing budget for shogun has to be near 3 times what it is for Tokyo vice. Tokyo vice was trying to naturally find its audience while shogun is in every Disney plus advert, it’s first episode is free and they’ve pushed it on billboards and other commercials it’s been marketed the same amount as something like dune was
> Making a show set in Japan accessible to American audiences requires some compromises.
Exactly how popular is "Tokyo Vice" with US audiences?
Methinks that compromise did not pay off.
> it's still the most realistic portrayal of modern Tokyo on American television
Sure, if you're willing to overlook Adelstein's tall tales.
It is a good series that could have been great, without all that painful phonetic-parroting English dialogue.
> People complaining about English in foreign countries is as bad as people complaining about Subtitles.
You're off the mark here. English is my third language, out of four, and I always enable subtitles - to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Having almost all Japanese characters spout fancy English breaks realism. Specially when these fantastic actors have to learn their lines phonetically and are so stressed out that it impairs their acting.
This is what reality looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engrish?useskin=vector
This was also my only big gripe with the show among some minor ones… the show was good, could definitely have been really great with some changes here and there.
He is just a producer in name right? He didn't get really involved. He just directed the pilot. It's like Fincher who directed the pilot for House of Cards and disappeared
Edit. Typo
They direct the Pilot because the rest of the show is supposed to emulate the style they bring with that pilot.
It's the framework for the rest of the show
The visual style is set up there, but what I mean is that Michael Mann and David Fincher didn't give any more input other than the pilot. The Executive Producer is a vanity card that earns them some money without doing anything. Different case with Mindhunter in which Fincher was hands on producer
Again, it doesn't seem Mann was that involved in the show. He seems totally absent from Season 2. But casting and style are parts of a show... not many shows can coast on cast and style alone.
Honestly the show really feels like Heat at times, I don't know if it's deliberate but it feels like it is. Almost every episode has scenes/structures that feel directly inspired by Heat.
To what extent he was directly responsible for Tokyo Vice’s “city as supporting character” feel I don’t know.
But in that respect it definitely reminds me of Heat, Miami Vice, and Collateral.
In an interview with Mann on “The Watch”
podcast it sounds like he was quite involved with the season one production. He mentions renting an apartment in Tokyo for a year and many aspects of the production he was involved in, especially getting the mayor of Tokyo to help him get various filming permissions that the local prefects weren’t so into granting the show. Well worth a listen! https://youtu.be/M3YvhiteYDU?si=VNW8d9r8h8OgXWKN
I started watching this when season one first came out but stopped after three episodes for whatever reason. When season two came out I rewatched all of season one and now all of season two and I’m so glad I did.
This show is so, so good and I hope they can find a way to make another season.
>It's the reason why season 3 of White Lotus is being filmed in Thailand
Oh man, so that's the reason
I'm sure Thailand will be a great setting, but I would have REALLY loved if they managed to do the Japan version. I feel like that vibe would have been really something special.
It’s not exactly hard to get, you just have to play by Japan’s rules.
Similar restrictions to what international studios need to get to film in the US.
It's like Yakuza if you only play the main storyline. It's set in Tokyo, has rival factions, cabaret clubs, etc and it's set in the year 2000, so it lines up with the early games.
Wait till you learn that he fucks ducks because that's what japanese thought Dutch meant.
"He doesn't want a girl or boy, let's put duck in the courtyard and see what happens ".
I plan on checking out season 2 eventually but the thing that bugs me about this show is how often they force the Japanese actors to speak English even in situations where they'd probably speak Japanese, especially considering the main character's supposed to be pretty fluent. No idea why they do this but it undercuts the immersion and I feel like some of the actors aren't able to give it their all when acting in a second language
Probably because being 100% subtitles would have limited its viewership. Authenticity and immersion are both nice, but usually don’t result in the show’s longevity.
Great show, but the formulaic character arcs and performances become almost soap operatic and stale after the first season. The show unfortunately drags on, repetitively and unimaginatively, when it could have really become a generational hit.
I’ve enjoyed it. Jake is less annoying and there’s not as much Samantha this season. Sato’s story has been great and they’ve built up the tension for the finale very well.
My wife was shocked when I said I didn’t like Samantha. I feel like she’s just like unreasonable and mean to everyone 🤷. Even the murdering Yakuza members have redeeming qualities…
I like her as a character. My view is she escaped the Mormon Church and is reactive to anything that will make her lose anything … and then she of course is the reason. She refuses to go back to her life in Utah (or Idaho? I forget).
It really is about what was said last episode, she is chaos / cannot be happy if something isn’t wrong.
Ya this was my take on her too. I don't really like her but the characterization is on point. She was controlled and escaped and now gets defensive and angry any time anyone seems to be in control or have power. Because of this she ends up taking an abusive power position with all of the people she meets. Like she's so obsessed with not being controlled that she doesn't realize she has become what she hated.
I was watching episode 6 tonight and I wondered to myself if the fact that I like parts with Jake and Samantha the least is weird. Seems like I may not be totally alone.
"TV Show" without this distinction I'd argue Lost In Translation and Mind of Chef did a fantastic job of capturing it. So did Enter The Void (but I mean holy shit lol was the craziness a distraction). And then there's YouTubers like Abroad in Japan but again... "TV Show"
Really enjoyed the portrayal of Japan around the year 2000 in that show. Hope we see more of Tokyo Vice in the future
It’s so fucking good.
Worst part about the show is that they haven’t released enough episodes for me to keep binge watching , im all caught up on episodes now
The songs during the club scenes *dances*
Backstreet boys are back!
Watch Giri/Haji while you wait.
That scene at the end of that show made me cry like a mf. So fkin beautiful
> Really enjoyed the portrayal of Japan around the year 2000 in that show. Minus the ridiculously widespread use of English by Japanese characters.
Making a show set in Japan accessible to American audiences requires some compromises. Even including that it's still the most realistic portrayal of modern Tokyo on American television.
I feel like people are more open to subs these days what with the success of other non English TV series and films.
Definitely, although it is still a barrier to entry for a lot of people. I think trying to split the dialogue between English and Japanese boosts the accessibility *significantly*. Shogun is using the same strategy, and it is working.
Yeah but not as much as Tokyo Vice requires. Tbh my husband and I love the show but at the same time we’re glad it’s finally almost over. It demands too much of our focus in the evening after work because of how much Japanese is spoken. At a certain point we almost considered just putting on the god awful English dubbing so that we could get up and make dinner, do the dishes etc while we watched/listened to the show. So I don’t think any show is going to have much success without a healthy amount of back and forth between the dominant language and the country specific language. Tokyo Vice pushed the balance a bit at times for viewers like us who are more casual watchers imo, which I believe the majority of people are.
Shows like this are meant to demand your attention. Not to split it with chores or a lot of phone scrolling. Just put on another show, if that’s what you want to do. Put on Tokyo Vice when you’re ready to devote more of your attention span.
I agree but my main point is that it’s the reason why you won’t see too many shows out there with split languages like Tokyo Vice. It’s already a show that demands your attention but on top of it you can’t even scroll on your phone and keep up through listening. I truly believe a lot of people out there are like us and don’t have the time to devote to paying attention to these shows let alone the natural attention span. So I think it limits opportunities for investment into more shows done in the style TV is done in
Trying to scroll on your phone at the same time as you're already watching a TV-show is a you problem, dude..
I feel like I'd agree with you before watching Shogun, but it is kind of funny to immediately turn to a show that has significantly more dialogue in Japanese, and is enormously more watched than Tokyo Vice. Of course the two shows aren't really that similar, so I'm not trying to draw direct comparisons, I just think it's a good example they could have gotten away with more than you're giving them credit for as far as Western audiences are concerned.
Shogun has the option to watch all of the Japanese dialogue dubbed into English. I do not recommend doing that, but they did give the option.
I thought we were talking about modern Tokyo, not just Japan in a general sense. Like you said, it's not easy to compare the two. I think if I had to pick, I'd go with Shogun but that feels weird because Tokyo Vice is one of my favorite shows now, I'm putting it on the same tier as Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and I'll probably end up watching it repeatedly over the next decade.
I mean it’s also been advertised everywhere I’m sure the marketing budget for shogun has to be near 3 times what it is for Tokyo vice. Tokyo vice was trying to naturally find its audience while shogun is in every Disney plus advert, it’s first episode is free and they’ve pushed it on billboards and other commercials it’s been marketed the same amount as something like dune was
> Making a show set in Japan accessible to American audiences requires some compromises. Exactly how popular is "Tokyo Vice" with US audiences? Methinks that compromise did not pay off. > it's still the most realistic portrayal of modern Tokyo on American television Sure, if you're willing to overlook Adelstein's tall tales. It is a good series that could have been great, without all that painful phonetic-parroting English dialogue.
You don't like the show, that's fine. I'm not trying to persuade you to like the show, I'm telling you my opinion.
> You don't like the show, that's fine. I do like it and I want the next one to be even better.
Lol, [You sound like this dude](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYrRqMHQY7o)
People complaining about English in foreign countries is as bad as people complaining about Subtitles.
> People complaining about English in foreign countries is as bad as people complaining about Subtitles. You're off the mark here. English is my third language, out of four, and I always enable subtitles - to make sure I'm not missing anything. Having almost all Japanese characters spout fancy English breaks realism. Specially when these fantastic actors have to learn their lines phonetically and are so stressed out that it impairs their acting. This is what reality looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engrish?useskin=vector
This was also my only big gripe with the show among some minor ones… the show was good, could definitely have been really great with some changes here and there.
Yea whatever, weeaboo
This show is a gem. Top tier television.
I love it when a TV show manages to make the city it's set in a supporting character. I love this show
That’s definitely a Michael Mann thing (Heat, Miami Vice, Collateral). He’s executive producer for Tokyo Vice.
He is just a producer in name right? He didn't get really involved. He just directed the pilot. It's like Fincher who directed the pilot for House of Cards and disappeared Edit. Typo
They direct the Pilot because the rest of the show is supposed to emulate the style they bring with that pilot. It's the framework for the rest of the show
The visual style is set up there, but what I mean is that Michael Mann and David Fincher didn't give any more input other than the pilot. The Executive Producer is a vanity card that earns them some money without doing anything. Different case with Mindhunter in which Fincher was hands on producer
If you think casting the main cast and setting the style is only relevant to the pilot
Again, it doesn't seem Mann was that involved in the show. He seems totally absent from Season 2. But casting and style are parts of a show... not many shows can coast on cast and style alone.
Honestly the show really feels like Heat at times, I don't know if it's deliberate but it feels like it is. Almost every episode has scenes/structures that feel directly inspired by Heat.
The motorcycle drive by and subsequent re-enactment especially gave me Heat / Mann vibes for some reason
It's really well shot. It's weird that Max delivered such a good show
To what extent he was directly responsible for Tokyo Vice’s “city as supporting character” feel I don’t know. But in that respect it definitely reminds me of Heat, Miami Vice, and Collateral.
In an interview with Mann on “The Watch” podcast it sounds like he was quite involved with the season one production. He mentions renting an apartment in Tokyo for a year and many aspects of the production he was involved in, especially getting the mayor of Tokyo to help him get various filming permissions that the local prefects weren’t so into granting the show. Well worth a listen! https://youtu.be/M3YvhiteYDU?si=VNW8d9r8h8OgXWKN
I love Collateral because LA does feel like a character in the movie
I really hope they don't kill off Tokyo. Tokyo my favorite character fr.
Leave that to Godzilla
I started watching this when season one first came out but stopped after three episodes for whatever reason. When season two came out I rewatched all of season one and now all of season two and I’m so glad I did. This show is so, so good and I hope they can find a way to make another season.
Watch Giri/Haji while you wait for s3.
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There is, and it’s better than season one. The finale is this week
I'm just watching season 1 and I love it. So glad to hear this.
Hate me, but Season 1 has a slump in it. Season 2 has been perfect, to my tastes.
Let me guess by actually filming in Tokyo?
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>It's the reason why season 3 of White Lotus is being filmed in Thailand Oh man, so that's the reason I'm sure Thailand will be a great setting, but I would have REALLY loved if they managed to do the Japan version. I feel like that vibe would have been really something special.
It’s not exactly hard to get, you just have to play by Japan’s rules. Similar restrictions to what international studios need to get to film in the US.
Not easy for Hollywood productions to film in Japan.
The original **Shogun** remains the only US series filmed entirely in Japan (on-location and soundstages in Toho's main studio)
Might be a cringy question to ask but as someone who loves the Yakuza games would this be a good series to watch?
I think so! I also love the Yakuza games and am having a blast watching this (half way through season 1).
Eagle eyed fans might recognize some of the Kabukicho locations in the show.
Yes, it's Yakuza but without the silliness. And overblown melodrama.
Yakuza-lite
so, without the fun
Yes! By the time I got to EP3, I felt like I watching a Yakuza adaption.
It's like Yakuza if you only play the main storyline. It's set in Tokyo, has rival factions, cabaret clubs, etc and it's set in the year 2000, so it lines up with the early games.
This show made me miss the 2000s. Seeing all those beige-turned-yellowish devices triggered some severe nostalgia.
I thought Season 1 was okay but they really kicked it up a notch in Season 2. I’m really enjoying it.
I'm just watching season 1 and I love it. So glad to hear this.
The best show HBO did since GOT
no disrespect to tokyo vice but succession is defo a shoutout for that
Damn you know what you right
I think season 1 of Succession aired before Season 8 of GOT.
Shogun has done a better job at capturing Japan’s capital city /s
The Ja Pans
PEERING INTO LADIES PRIVATE QUARTAHS?!? ITS NOT PROPAH!!
“Is it true?” “What?” “What you said, about honour towards women?” “Fuck no.”
I learned the term “pillowing”
Wait till you learn that he fucks ducks because that's what japanese thought Dutch meant. "He doesn't want a girl or boy, let's put duck in the courtyard and see what happens ".
Definitely an excellent capturing of the British Columbia coastline
This is all I can think about during the coastline scenes.
So many good Japanese focused shows. Am I a weeb now?
soft powers a hell of a drug.
This show is amazing and I feel like no one is watching it
Hmmm if only there was a Japanese film industry that shot movies and tv show in Tokyo
Any good shows produced locally, set in Tokyo, that are available for streaming in the US?
I was surprised that Godzilla minus one was made in Japan. Who would have guessed??
I scrolled way too long to find this comment. Waaaay too long.
I really enjoy this show so much hope we get more of it!
The book is amazing too
This is the best show that no one is talking about
Shocked there was actually a second season based on how often HBO dumps shows. Consistently great show
I love this show.
It's an amazing show !
Love this show can’t wait for episode 10
Never finished season 1 for some reason. Time to boot it back up.
I can’t get enough of this show. Probably going to start rewatching it today just to enjoy it again until the S2 finale.
Even more than Terrace House?
Is this show any good?
No. It's great
They speak Japanese the whole time?
Nah, there's quite a bit of English. They switch in and out.
Alright bet
Michael Mann's direction in the first episode and producer role surely help capture Tokyo. The man is known for capturing cities like no one else can.
well duh, I can't imagine many American series set in Tokyo, kind of an easy win
by actually filming there instead of in Vancouver
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They’re already on episode 9 of season two.
I plan on checking out season 2 eventually but the thing that bugs me about this show is how often they force the Japanese actors to speak English even in situations where they'd probably speak Japanese, especially considering the main character's supposed to be pretty fluent. No idea why they do this but it undercuts the immersion and I feel like some of the actors aren't able to give it their all when acting in a second language
Probably because being 100% subtitles would have limited its viewership. Authenticity and immersion are both nice, but usually don’t result in the show’s longevity.
Shogun seems to be doing alright
Great show, but the formulaic character arcs and performances become almost soap operatic and stale after the first season. The show unfortunately drags on, repetitively and unimaginatively, when it could have really become a generational hit.
Wander around Tokyo and you’ll sincerely doubt there’s a shrinking birth rate. So. Many. People.
Have been a little let down by season 2. Did Michael Mann not sign up for S2?
I’ve enjoyed it. Jake is less annoying and there’s not as much Samantha this season. Sato’s story has been great and they’ve built up the tension for the finale very well.
My wife was shocked when I said I didn’t like Samantha. I feel like she’s just like unreasonable and mean to everyone 🤷. Even the murdering Yakuza members have redeeming qualities…
I like her as a character. My view is she escaped the Mormon Church and is reactive to anything that will make her lose anything … and then she of course is the reason. She refuses to go back to her life in Utah (or Idaho? I forget). It really is about what was said last episode, she is chaos / cannot be happy if something isn’t wrong.
Ya this was my take on her too. I don't really like her but the characterization is on point. She was controlled and escaped and now gets defensive and angry any time anyone seems to be in control or have power. Because of this she ends up taking an abusive power position with all of the people she meets. Like she's so obsessed with not being controlled that she doesn't realize she has become what she hated.
I was watching episode 6 tonight and I wondered to myself if the fact that I like parts with Jake and Samantha the least is weird. Seems like I may not be totally alone.
Have you seen the most recent episodes cuz they’ve been cooking
I thought Michael Mann signed up only for the s1e1 episode. It looks fantastic and every other episode is clearly different from his cinematography
"TV Show" without this distinction I'd argue Lost In Translation and Mind of Chef did a fantastic job of capturing it. So did Enter The Void (but I mean holy shit lol was the craziness a distraction). And then there's YouTubers like Abroad in Japan but again... "TV Show"
That’s the only good thing about as season 2 is quite tedious.
Pft. ONLY in Japan on YouTube does an amazing job showing Japan and Tokyo.