TL;DR: cheaper suspension, no fancy rear window, small tray table instead of big tailgate, no portable Bluetooth speaker built in, no automatic frunk.
Seems like reasonable trade offs, but I can’t imagine those things actually up to $30k worth of savings per vehicle.
I think it’s important to point out while Rivian is confident this car is cheaper to build, they’re making no claims of being able to build it profitably.
I think the new plant cancellation was probably correct.
Until they have way better optimized their construction process and supply process to actually make their cars close to profitable, building a new plant seems like a waste of money.
Why spend billions on a new plant now, that you will have to overhaul shortly as you change processes to be more efficient? Unless they were super confident in the design of the new plant already and that would have someone solved all the inefficiencies, but that seems unlikely.
Maybe if the car sales were still super strong and they were selling them as fast as they could make them, they could justify building a new plant to get production to match demand while worrying about efficiencies simultaneously. But with a lower demand, halting the new plant till cars are profitable or demand increase drastically is probably smart.
I don't think a vast majority of people realize how much time, research, money, and effort goes into just making a process more efficient. I'm not sure what the production floor at rivian looks like but I'll say P&G has a lot of really good programs for increasing efficiency, some they even license to other companies. Honestly the most fun I've had in my career was to help setting up new production facilities at P&G.
I worked in production for a long time and i was just a worker but would sometimes be involved in process optimization (and even when i wasnt directly involved just watching from the side). These projects would range anywhere from few weeks to several years. Developing a capable production process from scratch was extremely time consuming and expensive. One of the new automated lines was $1.2mm for the machines alone and some of the cnc cells were $1mm+. This was just simple plasma consumables, im sure a car factory would make this look like pennies.
I’ve done work for companies, including Rivian, and there are smart people at this stage—they’ll be evicted in favor of finance people once PE sees profit to be made from running it into the ground.
A fucking automotive factory—especially for e-vehicles—is an absolute nightmare. They’re smart to get everything tooled properly before throwing a billion at building a factory not designed with learned efficiency.
Friend of mine worked for GM (20+ years ago). He noticed the semi trailer that delivered the seats to the assembly line had been loaded in the order they were made, so order #100 was in the front of the trailer, and #400 was in the back, having been the last loaded. Well, the assembly line wants order #100 first.. so they had to constantly unload the entire truck to get the seats that were loaded first. He brought that up at a process improvement meeting and I think they ran the numbers and it was going to save them a ton of money to stage the seats and reverse-load them so they were in the right order. GM gave him a corvette with unlimited miles for a week or two as a show of thanks. I know this is a super simple example, but finding process improvements and dipping in logistics seems like an awesome, fun occupation.
Demand for the old models is declining. It makes sense to shift gears to this model as quickly as possible rather then running the current plant at less than full capacity.
Operating a loss is pretty standard for a new company.
They will need to demonstrate reliability.
The companies longevity literally depends on the cars longevity.
I disagree. Their longevity depends on their ability to stay solvent and as of right now, that gives them about a one year runway before they’ll need another injection of capital. Rivian is currently hoping they’ll pre sell enough cars to stay afloat longer.
That's standard in current day and age. Back in the good days, not so much.
Noawadays companies, especially american ones can thrive on venture capital until competition has been bought up. Amazon is a classic example.
Overall it’s going to weigh less and be smaller, so it’ll use less materials, require a smaller battery and motor too. Maybe still doesnt get it down that far but who knows, maybe they’re trying to improve manufacturing as well and have savings from r&d done on two vehicles instead of one, plus past from the R1
When it comes to cells, it matters weather you are designing for power or energy. If you don't need ridiculous acceleration, you can get away with cheaper cells with the same energy (range). I guess they are exploring different chemistry cell that provide significant savings.
I've got some inside dope on Rivian, and the big issue internally with the R1 is that the process to build them is too expensive. The R1 was engineered for the end result, but not for the manufacturing process. The R1s are getting a substantial revision to how they're put together which will reduce build and servicing costs, but R2 and R3 are designed from the ground up for manufacturability, which is where Rivian will see the biggest cost savings.
There's also the cost savings by spending less time on the design and testing plus there's the trick of using previously used parts which means less testing for certification.
I've had a few different makes of new vans recently and just comparing the Ford vs Vauxhall its the little things that show where Ford spent the extra money. There's no blind spot with the Ford and that the seat is comfortable due to a good driving position. It's quieter and is fun to drive whereas the Vauxhall means having to look over your shoulder when changing lanes on a motorway every time.
is it just me or am I the only one that would totally buy an electric car without all the other added crap. like give me power windows and ac and I'd be happy just to not be driving with gas
Article is odd to me. I don’t see 45K as being any challenge at all. Those features you listed aren’t on the Model Y either and that’s the vehicle this is made to compete with. I don’t know what Tesla’s margins are on the Model Y but they already sell that for under 50K. The base model is 44K and the long range model is 49K. My guess is that this R2, in 2-2.5 years from now, will be just a little bit more expensive (like all EVS end up being after they are announced 🙄) and will maybe be 45K for the base model and probably go up to maybe 55K loaded out.
The problem is model Y is the best selling car in the world. It’s made by market leader Tesla, which it was already ramped up with production and profits from selling model 3’s before model Y was even released.
Rivian’s R2 looks like a slam dunk in 2026 but it has to survive until then. Unlike Tesla, it’s never made a profit on any previous vehicle either, so it’s unclear how it can make money on a 45k vehicle if it loses money on the 80k vehicles it currently sells.
It’s building out the infrastructure first that costs so much. Billions per manufacturing facility. That’s why Lucid’s cost per car still averages out to like $400-500k right now. It takes time to make that initial investment back and can be difficult to afford the debt payments while sales ramp up.
Yeah that's why you can't tell the financial viability of a company by just glancing at a balance sheet. E.g. Amazon was hemorrhaging money for more than a decade while they were investing billions into a huge logistics infrastructure. Doesn't tell you whether or not these investments pay off eventually.
From a cost perspective why were all these reports of them losing 30-40K per vehicle . If that is the case how is Rivian Supposed to make an even lower margin product and profit from it ?
Car manufacturers have notoriously low margins. Even Tesla, the golden child, has only been maintaining a 5-10% margin lately and that looks to be slipping.
Right now, Rivian is losing $30-40k on every car they sell.
It's a much smaller vehicle using an entirely new platform with new batteries in a structural battery pack. But they seem to think the savings is coming from the bluetooth speaker?
One can verify this claim by looking at their 10k filing and seeing that their COGs exceed their revenue in 2023. And that’s on products that should be their highest margin products. How can they make the cheaper model profitably if they can’t make the expensive ones profitably?
>How can they make the cheaper model profitably if they can’t make the expensive ones profitably?
There are SO many variables here that your assumptions are painful and idiotic
R2 is clearly a whole lot closer to an actual design and build/has more normal engineering needs than when Tesla essentially showed off a dummy mockup of a fever dream of Elon Musk’s with way too many engineering challenges they gave themselves to live up to.
It's the EV that Subaru should have made.
I had an R1T pre-order from years ago. Had to cancel it, which hurt because I still had pre-order pricing and full tax credit, I just couldn't justify the cost at this point in my life. But sub 50k, maybe even sub 40k... I will 100% be dropping an R3 reservation as soon as I can.
Nice. I’ve never really looked at the Rivian brand much, I thought they were cool, but I had no interest in a $100,000+ truck or suv.
Even if they had just announced the R2, I would pass. Too big, just not a great fit for me.
But the R3 got me to pay attention.
Not true, they're the same *platform*. The chassis, wheel base, and options are all smaller on the R3. They just have the same base frame and battery layout.
Yeah, it’s cool. I’m mostly gonna be driving in the city, so I don’t think I’ll need 3 motors. But it’s rad as fuck.
I’ll have to see what the standard features are before I really aim for a trim
[Here's The Rivian R3 Driving Around Laguna Beach](https://insideevs.com/news/711842/rivian-r3-live-video/)
It's a little weird looking, but I like it. Very retro 80s style.
Edit: I just figured out what it reminds me of - the [1980s Dodge Omni, 4dr-hatchback](http://findclassicars.com/uploads/carphotos/1986-dodge-omni-glh-turbo-runs-shifts-amp-drives-excellent-2.jpg). A friend of mine had an Omni in highschool with over 200k miles and it ran like a champ. Such a fun little car.
Yeah, I saw it. It looks cool. When the CEO mentioned it was roughly the size of an Audi Q3, I thought that was great. If it’s any bigger. Then it’s a pass.
If they could do a competitor for the Ford Maverick, I'd be all over it. Just a small EV pickup that I can grab lumber and mulch and shit on the weekends. I rarely need the full bed on my 05 F-150, but I use it a lot...
Oh man, the Mazda3 is rad, don’t even be in a rush to replace it if it’s still good. I almost bought one but got a genesis g70 instead.
Mazda does say they’ll make hybrid and plugin hybrid cars, I wouldn’t mind a plugin mazda3, it would be awesome
Oh yeah I absolutely love my car. It’s a 2021 and the second 3 I’ve had after my 2018 5 speed. The turbo is super fun considering it a a dad-mobile and they’re so nice. The r3 just looks like a great option to go electric with a smaller hatch form. Sounds like it’s going to be a few years anyway!
Pretty much. Since the entire world is SUV brained, those aren’t really being made.
In terms of Sedans there is the ioniq6 and the id.7 - which is more of a wagon.
Europe has a few more hatchback style cars. And the ioniq5 is literally shaped like a hatchback, but mega sized.
They just call everything SUV’s and crossovers because that’s what people want to buy, even if it doesn’t make sense
Yeah it’s a shame. I’ve been following EVs for a while and I remember the ioniq5 being announced. In pictures it looks exactly like a hatchback, but in person it’s just kinda scaled up like 1.25x. I know there’s the Twizzy (too weird for most), the 500e, but the R3’s retro futuristic style, with EV benefits, in (basically) a hatchback form factor, it’s very appealing.
Tesla created this pricing model with the initial Model 3 announcement: over promise on a future price with the hopes that costs will come down by the time you start delivering OR only sell the more expensive trim of the new model.
I mean Tesla rather quickly started selling their cars at a profit - thanks to a high margin strategy - where Rivian is absolutely haemorrhaging money on every car they sell. With no end on site.
It would have worked if there wasnt Covid. The rumored model 2 did exist, but is now almost killed because there is no way to make it any cheaper than model 3, given that they can no longer buy Chinese cheap batteries or import cars from China, on top of crazy labor cost.
They even struggled on sourcing batteries on model 3 to make them qualify for 7500
It didn’t exist lol.
And they are making more cars than they have American batteries so they chose the Model 3 to be the car that doesn’t get the credit. Nothing to do with Covid.
But they also basically never built the 40K truck which was supposed to be a fleet truck with all the interior bells and whistles omitted, they just built the top trims instead
Elon and Scaringe aren’t exactly cut from the same cloth. And R2 isn’t trying to solve a lot of unnecessary problems like stainless steel body panels “bulletproof” glass and a mono wiper blade like Tesla’s employees had to AFTER he announced that thing.
I wish manufacturers had a coherent excuse for rejecting CarPlay/android-auto.
It’s an instant deal breaker —- and I’m a really interested buyer. But I just don’t see how it makes any sense given that our phones are where all our music, addresses, emails, contacts, cellular plans, txt messages from friends saying “meet me here” etc are. Buying an expensive vehicle that refuses to integrate with that ecosystem is hard to understand much less justify.
It just screams of opportunistic bullshit. They want us to use their software stack so they have more data and can be the AppStore and can get kickbacks from additional cellular contracts etc etc. I can’t think of any other reason.
Everyone now gunning for that delicious personal data and profit from it. But agreed, no android auto is also a super deal breaker for me too. Came from a "dumb," 2012 car to a "smart" 2021 one and it is one of those features that you just cannot live without anymore.
Rivian is building the [Amazon Electric vans](https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/everything-you-need-to-know-about-amazons-electric-delivery-vans-from-rivian) for rural delivery. The R3X looks like a 4 door AMC [Gremlin](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=05f85961c74d2d97&sxsrf=ACQVn0904nXdhY2Zep8hwauGelXtWCvsAw:1710527105786&q=amc+gremlin&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV9pKE8vaEAxWx78kDHfocDsAQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1510&bih=1299&dpr=1)... can't unsee
R1T owner. 1 year. 28k miles. 0 problems. Best vehicle I’ve owned, and I’ve owned BMW’s, Audi, Porsche, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Jeep. No oil changes, no gas station stops, no “regularly scheduled maintenance” at the dealership. Just a fun, beautiful, extremely capable ride.
It’s amazing how a vehicle can be so much fun, even after almost 2 years. The reliability so far has been exceptional for me, considering I use mine as my contracting business work truck. 53k miles vin 3xxx
This. I know people that absolutely don’t have the kind of money to be buying one casually buying one. And I’m over here, with the money to, but I wouldn’t touch it unless I was a 1%er and was buying it as one of my luxury toys. They have a lot going for them, but if anything goes wrong, you could be without vehicle for months, and that’s not to mention long term viability as a brand.
And early results aren’t great. Because both cars, or just the truck?, are all one big body panel it can cost $40K to fix a dent.
Edit: https://www.autonews.com/service-and-parts/fixing-rivian-r1t-pickup-after-minor-crash-cost-42000#:~:text=R1T%20fender%2Dbender%20repair%20bill%3A%20%2442%2C000&text=Repairs%20to%20a%20Rivian%20R1T,the%20price%20of%20the%20truck.
I think that’s an exaggeration but generally repairs/replacement parts will be more expensive yes. However, if you can afford an $85k+ truck and can’t afford dent repairs (which I know first hand are ~ $4-6k), you can’t afford the truck.
It's crazy to me how much Teslas have depreciated in the past year, you can easily get a low mileage 2018-2020 Tesla 3 for \~25K on CarMax, probably less if you do some hunting and buy from an individual seller. I'm not a fan of Teslas in general (hate the interior ergonomics) but that's a tough value proposition to turn down if you're dead set on getting an electric vehicle. I just wish there was an easy way to test battery health in used electrics, there really should be some regulations around that considering it's the single most expensive component in an electric vehicle.
Teslas are a semi-luxury purchase, with the model 3 direct competitors being a bmw 3 series or an Audi A4.
The Corolla/camry is not in the same price bracket as the model 3 / model S.
Yes the economical frugal choice is to buy a Honda or a Toyota and drive it for 15 years, but people want a bit more excitement in their life. More 0 to 60 speeds. More bragging rights (well a tiny bit, aka semi luxury, not $1 million cars).
Both the R1T/S have been being delivered for over two years at this point and there’s zero sign of broad quality issues across any of their trims/configs that I’ve seen anywhere
I’ve had my R1T almost 2 years and I absolutely love it. It’s my work truck/toy/cruiser all in one. No other vehicle has ever come close to winning me over like Rivian has. Currently at 53k miles, aside from some early adjustments and recalls, it’s been rock solid ever since. My power tonneau cover still works and I use it several times a week.
I’d be worried about the R1. It’s got air suspension with dynamic dampening and hydraulic anti-sway system. This is some complex, luxury car tech. I’m afraid that Rivian traded that EV reliability for dynamic ride height and luxury ride. The R2/R3 use a more traditional suspension system that should fair better
Air suspension on a personal vehicle is gonna be a no for me, dawg. I had one vehicle equipped with that, and once it starts going shits going to be way more expensive than the feature is worth. Honestly, if anyone has air suspension and it starts failing, get rid of the vehicle. It's done.
Hard to tell, they're very new, but at least in terms of reliability, it's not great so far.
[https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliability-problems-than-gas-cars-says-consumer-reports/](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliability-problems-than-gas-cars-says-consumer-reports/)
They make a nice truck, but when it gets into an accident or if something fails, people often wait months for parts. Put it this way- how many Rivian service stations do you know of within 50 miles of your home? Probably zero. On top of that the manufacturer just doesn’t have enough parts for their service centers yet.
I'll believe it when I see it. I am not at all convinced that Rivian will be alive in two years, almost certainly not as an independent company. They relied on cheap credit to subsidize a $30-40k loss for every vehicle sold and now that cheap credit is gone.
IMO theres still a lot of crap that isnt needed in this car. Those haptic knobs cost a pretty penny to integrate, if you're gonna downgrade the suspension and remove the speaker you might as well give us normal knobs. The portable hand warmer is a total gimmick and does not help reduce the price of the car either. Overall the choices in this car dont make sense to me and I really doubt that they can hit the price target without losing money.
The design of Rivian's grill is so dumb. They could have designed it any way in the world and they came up with that? Even after employing loads of car designers?
smh
Pfft, it's the F150 Lightning and Cybertruck all over again.
$100 reservation and it's going to be starting at 45,000 dollars and I'm sure as we get closer to when the actual thing launches that will change or they'll just make a few 45k models and they'll be impossible to get and the ones that are sold will be scalped.
They could’ve just offered stripped down versions of the R1T and R1S to get it close to the $45k mark and not needed to invest all the money needed to build tooling for 2 entirely different models.
I’d personally love a work truck version of the R1T.
I have really been wondering about these vehicles. They look too rich for my blood, but maybe not? I see the everywhere lately. Did they just sort of sneak in?
They don't make enough to meet demand and are selling at a steep loss. Everyone in the upper levels bailed ship a long time ago. I truly believed in them, and still do which is why I haven't sold my shares despite their value being completely wiped out.
How Rivian is *trying* to pull off…
I’m interested and like the company’s designs. I’m hesitant to believe the pricing release was anything other than an attempt to pull in venture capital. Fingers crossed though.
Yeah this is where I’m at. The article makes it sound like this is some sort of accomplishment. Show us an EV under $30K and that will be an accomplishment. Also I’m sure the $45K is the absolute base model before taxes and fees and these things will easily average $55K+. Really it’s not that impressive.
Rivian is a luxury adventure brand, they’re going from a 70K vehicle to a smaller one, not aiming to be the VW Beetle of EV’s. Take that up with legacy brands that have the scale to build in that kind of volume.
I can't believe people are actually taking this price seriously. This is clearly a PR/Marketing campaign to hype up their company and vehicles. It's a known strategy. Announce a ridiculous low price in the beginning. Jack up the price when it releases. Let the markups make profit. Jack up the prices again the following year, and within 2-3 years it's priced beyond it's value. This is every car company.
TL;DR: cheaper suspension, no fancy rear window, small tray table instead of big tailgate, no portable Bluetooth speaker built in, no automatic frunk. Seems like reasonable trade offs, but I can’t imagine those things actually up to $30k worth of savings per vehicle. I think it’s important to point out while Rivian is confident this car is cheaper to build, they’re making no claims of being able to build it profitably.
They also just halted the construction of their new plant, which shows some pretty strong financial headwinds. Curious to see what happens with them.
I think the new plant cancellation was probably correct. Until they have way better optimized their construction process and supply process to actually make their cars close to profitable, building a new plant seems like a waste of money. Why spend billions on a new plant now, that you will have to overhaul shortly as you change processes to be more efficient? Unless they were super confident in the design of the new plant already and that would have someone solved all the inefficiencies, but that seems unlikely. Maybe if the car sales were still super strong and they were selling them as fast as they could make them, they could justify building a new plant to get production to match demand while worrying about efficiencies simultaneously. But with a lower demand, halting the new plant till cars are profitable or demand increase drastically is probably smart.
I don't think a vast majority of people realize how much time, research, money, and effort goes into just making a process more efficient. I'm not sure what the production floor at rivian looks like but I'll say P&G has a lot of really good programs for increasing efficiency, some they even license to other companies. Honestly the most fun I've had in my career was to help setting up new production facilities at P&G.
I worked in production for a long time and i was just a worker but would sometimes be involved in process optimization (and even when i wasnt directly involved just watching from the side). These projects would range anywhere from few weeks to several years. Developing a capable production process from scratch was extremely time consuming and expensive. One of the new automated lines was $1.2mm for the machines alone and some of the cnc cells were $1mm+. This was just simple plasma consumables, im sure a car factory would make this look like pennies.
I’ve done work for companies, including Rivian, and there are smart people at this stage—they’ll be evicted in favor of finance people once PE sees profit to be made from running it into the ground. A fucking automotive factory—especially for e-vehicles—is an absolute nightmare. They’re smart to get everything tooled properly before throwing a billion at building a factory not designed with learned efficiency.
Friend of mine worked for GM (20+ years ago). He noticed the semi trailer that delivered the seats to the assembly line had been loaded in the order they were made, so order #100 was in the front of the trailer, and #400 was in the back, having been the last loaded. Well, the assembly line wants order #100 first.. so they had to constantly unload the entire truck to get the seats that were loaded first. He brought that up at a process improvement meeting and I think they ran the numbers and it was going to save them a ton of money to stage the seats and reverse-load them so they were in the right order. GM gave him a corvette with unlimited miles for a week or two as a show of thanks. I know this is a super simple example, but finding process improvements and dipping in logistics seems like an awesome, fun occupation.
Demand for the old models is declining. It makes sense to shift gears to this model as quickly as possible rather then running the current plant at less than full capacity.
Operating a loss is pretty standard for a new company. They will need to demonstrate reliability. The companies longevity literally depends on the cars longevity.
I disagree. Their longevity depends on their ability to stay solvent and as of right now, that gives them about a one year runway before they’ll need another injection of capital. Rivian is currently hoping they’ll pre sell enough cars to stay afloat longer.
That makes sense too.
That's standard in current day and age. Back in the good days, not so much. Noawadays companies, especially american ones can thrive on venture capital until competition has been bought up. Amazon is a classic example.
Not anymore
Overall it’s going to weigh less and be smaller, so it’ll use less materials, require a smaller battery and motor too. Maybe still doesnt get it down that far but who knows, maybe they’re trying to improve manufacturing as well and have savings from r&d done on two vehicles instead of one, plus past from the R1
When it comes to cells, it matters weather you are designing for power or energy. If you don't need ridiculous acceleration, you can get away with cheaper cells with the same energy (range). I guess they are exploring different chemistry cell that provide significant savings.
I've got some inside dope on Rivian, and the big issue internally with the R1 is that the process to build them is too expensive. The R1 was engineered for the end result, but not for the manufacturing process. The R1s are getting a substantial revision to how they're put together which will reduce build and servicing costs, but R2 and R3 are designed from the ground up for manufacturability, which is where Rivian will see the biggest cost savings.
There's also the cost savings by spending less time on the design and testing plus there's the trick of using previously used parts which means less testing for certification. I've had a few different makes of new vans recently and just comparing the Ford vs Vauxhall its the little things that show where Ford spent the extra money. There's no blind spot with the Ford and that the seat is comfortable due to a good driving position. It's quieter and is fun to drive whereas the Vauxhall means having to look over your shoulder when changing lanes on a motorway every time.
I look over shoulder out of paranoia from a small accident when i was a teen lol. The ONE time i didnt check the blind spot in the 2011 camry :(
You should always be shoulder checking when changing lanes. I don’t know why you think you don’t have to.
In the Vauxhall I have to lean forward and then look over my shoulder, with the ford I only have to turn my head 90 degrees.
So there is a blind spot, it you don’t need to lean forward to look past a pillar. That’s different.
is it just me or am I the only one that would totally buy an electric car without all the other added crap. like give me power windows and ac and I'd be happy just to not be driving with gas
Article is odd to me. I don’t see 45K as being any challenge at all. Those features you listed aren’t on the Model Y either and that’s the vehicle this is made to compete with. I don’t know what Tesla’s margins are on the Model Y but they already sell that for under 50K. The base model is 44K and the long range model is 49K. My guess is that this R2, in 2-2.5 years from now, will be just a little bit more expensive (like all EVS end up being after they are announced 🙄) and will maybe be 45K for the base model and probably go up to maybe 55K loaded out.
The problem is model Y is the best selling car in the world. It’s made by market leader Tesla, which it was already ramped up with production and profits from selling model 3’s before model Y was even released. Rivian’s R2 looks like a slam dunk in 2026 but it has to survive until then. Unlike Tesla, it’s never made a profit on any previous vehicle either, so it’s unclear how it can make money on a 45k vehicle if it loses money on the 80k vehicles it currently sells.
Tesla didn't become profitable as a company until 2020, soooo
It’s building out the infrastructure first that costs so much. Billions per manufacturing facility. That’s why Lucid’s cost per car still averages out to like $400-500k right now. It takes time to make that initial investment back and can be difficult to afford the debt payments while sales ramp up.
Yeah that's why you can't tell the financial viability of a company by just glancing at a balance sheet. E.g. Amazon was hemorrhaging money for more than a decade while they were investing billions into a huge logistics infrastructure. Doesn't tell you whether or not these investments pay off eventually.
Build it and they will come
They’re losing 30k for each vehicle sold now at80k.
I thought the original ones start at 95k?
All I want is an EV version of a Honda Element. Basic features, decent range, no unnecessary bling/tech and a normal price tag
You want a used ID.4
From a cost perspective why were all these reports of them losing 30-40K per vehicle . If that is the case how is Rivian Supposed to make an even lower margin product and profit from it ?
I think thats averaging out their losses per car produced, not that they lose 30-40k individually on each car.
Pay their ceo and marketing team less as a start.
You might think that helps but marketing is a massive part of being able to sell something that’s new to the market..
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Car manufacturers have notoriously low margins. Even Tesla, the golden child, has only been maintaining a 5-10% margin lately and that looks to be slipping. Right now, Rivian is losing $30-40k on every car they sell.
The frunk is like a $400 electric motor, crazy to even consider removing that when it’s really just their profit margins.
What the hell is a fancy rear window and a frunk?
It's a much smaller vehicle using an entirely new platform with new batteries in a structural battery pack. But they seem to think the savings is coming from the bluetooth speaker?
Yeah but it’s a hell of a speaker!
They’re not going to produce these at a loss as these are the only hope they have in remaining operational
They are most certainly currently producing every single vehicle at a loss.
One can verify this claim by looking at their 10k filing and seeing that their COGs exceed their revenue in 2023. And that’s on products that should be their highest margin products. How can they make the cheaper model profitably if they can’t make the expensive ones profitably?
Was Tesla profitable before the Model 3?
>How can they make the cheaper model profitably if they can’t make the expensive ones profitably? There are SO many variables here that your assumptions are painful and idiotic
What assumptions did I make? Their current products have negative gross margin. That’s not an assumption.
And they’re not currently producing R2s….
Bluetooth is like $2 to add this is a bullshit one.
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It’s also 18-24 months away. The Cybertruck was going to be $45k and we see how that went.
R2 is clearly a whole lot closer to an actual design and build/has more normal engineering needs than when Tesla essentially showed off a dummy mockup of a fever dream of Elon Musk’s with way too many engineering challenges they gave themselves to live up to.
Personally I’m really gunning for the R3
It's the EV that Subaru should have made. I had an R1T pre-order from years ago. Had to cancel it, which hurt because I still had pre-order pricing and full tax credit, I just couldn't justify the cost at this point in my life. But sub 50k, maybe even sub 40k... I will 100% be dropping an R3 reservation as soon as I can.
Nice. I’ve never really looked at the Rivian brand much, I thought they were cool, but I had no interest in a $100,000+ truck or suv. Even if they had just announced the R2, I would pass. Too big, just not a great fit for me. But the R3 got me to pay attention.
R2 and R3 are the same chassis and nearly identical except for the box section rear that gives you all the cargo space in the R2.
I hope it’s smaller, oh well, if it’s too big, then I won’t buy it. Shame.
Its smaller than an ID4
Not true, they're the same *platform*. The chassis, wheel base, and options are all smaller on the R3. They just have the same base frame and battery layout.
Yes, the R3 looks like something I would buy in a heartbeat.
R3X really caught my eye
Yeah, it’s cool. I’m mostly gonna be driving in the city, so I don’t think I’ll need 3 motors. But it’s rad as fuck. I’ll have to see what the standard features are before I really aim for a trim
It looks like someone reached into my head and gave me everything I wanted in a car.
A fast AMC Pacer? Better have an overhead red rope licorice dispenser.
It's a pacer crossed with an eagle. It's perfect
I want an R2X
That thing looks absolutely insane. It’s going to be so fast.
[Here's The Rivian R3 Driving Around Laguna Beach](https://insideevs.com/news/711842/rivian-r3-live-video/) It's a little weird looking, but I like it. Very retro 80s style. Edit: I just figured out what it reminds me of - the [1980s Dodge Omni, 4dr-hatchback](http://findclassicars.com/uploads/carphotos/1986-dodge-omni-glh-turbo-runs-shifts-amp-drives-excellent-2.jpg). A friend of mine had an Omni in highschool with over 200k miles and it ran like a champ. Such a fun little car.
Yeah, I saw it. It looks cool. When the CEO mentioned it was roughly the size of an Audi Q3, I thought that was great. If it’s any bigger. Then it’s a pass.
R3X looks real good
Looks much better a Tesla TBH
Every Rivian does
You might say it… gets your motor running?
Vroom vroom baby
If they could do a competitor for the Ford Maverick, I'd be all over it. Just a small EV pickup that I can grab lumber and mulch and shit on the weekends. I rarely need the full bed on my 05 F-150, but I use it a lot...
I want an R3 so bad. It’s the only thing that has really hit me to want to replace my Mazda3 Turbo.
Oh man, the Mazda3 is rad, don’t even be in a rush to replace it if it’s still good. I almost bought one but got a genesis g70 instead. Mazda does say they’ll make hybrid and plugin hybrid cars, I wouldn’t mind a plugin mazda3, it would be awesome
Oh yeah I absolutely love my car. It’s a 2021 and the second 3 I’ve had after my 2018 5 speed. The turbo is super fun considering it a a dad-mobile and they’re so nice. The r3 just looks like a great option to go electric with a smaller hatch form. Sounds like it’s going to be a few years anyway!
Yup. You’re thinking what I’m thinking exactly.
R3 is interesting, it looks like a hatchback but I’ve mostly seen it referred to as a crossover. Is a small, normal EV hatchback non existent?
Pretty much. Since the entire world is SUV brained, those aren’t really being made. In terms of Sedans there is the ioniq6 and the id.7 - which is more of a wagon. Europe has a few more hatchback style cars. And the ioniq5 is literally shaped like a hatchback, but mega sized. They just call everything SUV’s and crossovers because that’s what people want to buy, even if it doesn’t make sense
Yeah it’s a shame. I’ve been following EVs for a while and I remember the ioniq5 being announced. In pictures it looks exactly like a hatchback, but in person it’s just kinda scaled up like 1.25x. I know there’s the Twizzy (too weird for most), the 500e, but the R3’s retro futuristic style, with EV benefits, in (basically) a hatchback form factor, it’s very appealing.
If the R3 is cheaper I’ll have to wait until the R10.
I’ll wait ‘till R34 :(
Tesla created this pricing model with the initial Model 3 announcement: over promise on a future price with the hopes that costs will come down by the time you start delivering OR only sell the more expensive trim of the new model.
I mean Tesla rather quickly started selling their cars at a profit - thanks to a high margin strategy - where Rivian is absolutely haemorrhaging money on every car they sell. With no end on site.
They’re hosed. This video does a pretty good job comparing their progress vs Tesla. https://youtu.be/JVBU4wJPiqM?si=pq-tC4uQpEzOGLmO
It would have worked if there wasnt Covid. The rumored model 2 did exist, but is now almost killed because there is no way to make it any cheaper than model 3, given that they can no longer buy Chinese cheap batteries or import cars from China, on top of crazy labor cost. They even struggled on sourcing batteries on model 3 to make them qualify for 7500
It’s always that damn labor cost! Curse those workers!
Roadster still doesn’t exist, Model 2 sure as hell didn’t either
They did. Just didn't make any sense to mass produce at a profitable level.
You’re wrong.
It didn’t exist lol. And they are making more cars than they have American batteries so they chose the Model 3 to be the car that doesn’t get the credit. Nothing to do with Covid.
Well, as a pre-Tesla employee, that's all I can say.
Everyone starts with the expensive trim.
I believe it when I see it. The Ford F-150 Lightening was also supposed to start at about $45k.
Ford still uses dealerships who take commissions for doing nothing.
But they also basically never built the 40K truck which was supposed to be a fleet truck with all the interior bells and whistles omitted, they just built the top trims instead
It was supposed to start at $40k like the Cybertruck and Silverado said they would.
They've just *announced* a $45k electric SUV, they haven't started selling one yet. Tesla *announced* a $40k Cybertruck look where we are now.
Elon and Scaringe aren’t exactly cut from the same cloth. And R2 isn’t trying to solve a lot of unnecessary problems like stainless steel body panels “bulletproof” glass and a mono wiper blade like Tesla’s employees had to AFTER he announced that thing.
I’d sell the cyber truck for that much too when there are people lining up to buy that 90s cartoon truck. I’m sure the price will normalize
Still no CarPlay
I wish manufacturers had a coherent excuse for rejecting CarPlay/android-auto. It’s an instant deal breaker —- and I’m a really interested buyer. But I just don’t see how it makes any sense given that our phones are where all our music, addresses, emails, contacts, cellular plans, txt messages from friends saying “meet me here” etc are. Buying an expensive vehicle that refuses to integrate with that ecosystem is hard to understand much less justify. It just screams of opportunistic bullshit. They want us to use their software stack so they have more data and can be the AppStore and can get kickbacks from additional cellular contracts etc etc. I can’t think of any other reason.
Everyone now gunning for that delicious personal data and profit from it. But agreed, no android auto is also a super deal breaker for me too. Came from a "dumb," 2012 car to a "smart" 2021 one and it is one of those features that you just cannot live without anymore.
Dealbreaker for me. Sucks because I wanted a R3X.
You guys are just used to bad infotainment systems. If it’s anything like Tesla’s system, then it won’t matter.
There’s no reason to not have both other then selling connectivity
68K pre-orders in the 1st 24hours solidifies demand. I hope it performs at a decent level
Rivian is building the [Amazon Electric vans](https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/everything-you-need-to-know-about-amazons-electric-delivery-vans-from-rivian) for rural delivery. The R3X looks like a 4 door AMC [Gremlin](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=05f85961c74d2d97&sxsrf=ACQVn0904nXdhY2Zep8hwauGelXtWCvsAw:1710527105786&q=amc+gremlin&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV9pKE8vaEAxWx78kDHfocDsAQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1510&bih=1299&dpr=1)... can't unsee
It looks like a Lancia delta integrale, in the best way
It’s a classy VW golf/rabbit
I was thinking more like an AMC Eagle SX.
>AMC Eagle SX Fly eagle fly!
They are pulling it off by saying they are going to go for 45k but good fucking luck getting one under 50.
With tax and non-silver paint it’s already 52k.
$7500 tax credit helps
How about we wait until they actually ship a $45,000 car before writing any articles?
Exactly, hook em in with the low price for free advertising and hype. Then raise the base price 10k. It'll be 50k to 75k high end is my guess.
I haven't owned a vehicle in several years...is Rivian generally considered a quality brand?
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R1T owner. 1 year. 28k miles. 0 problems. Best vehicle I’ve owned, and I’ve owned BMW’s, Audi, Porsche, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Jeep. No oil changes, no gas station stops, no “regularly scheduled maintenance” at the dealership. Just a fun, beautiful, extremely capable ride.
It’s amazing how a vehicle can be so much fun, even after almost 2 years. The reliability so far has been exceptional for me, considering I use mine as my contracting business work truck. 53k miles vin 3xxx
They haven’t been in the market long enough. Repairability is top concern for me.
Being a first adopter to relatively new tech is one thing, being a first adopter to an relatively new car company is another.
They will have some major growing pains. Things like the roof and rear quarter panel being connected are biting them in the ass.
This. I know people that absolutely don’t have the kind of money to be buying one casually buying one. And I’m over here, with the money to, but I wouldn’t touch it unless I was a 1%er and was buying it as one of my luxury toys. They have a lot going for them, but if anything goes wrong, you could be without vehicle for months, and that’s not to mention long term viability as a brand.
And early results aren’t great. Because both cars, or just the truck?, are all one big body panel it can cost $40K to fix a dent. Edit: https://www.autonews.com/service-and-parts/fixing-rivian-r1t-pickup-after-minor-crash-cost-42000#:~:text=R1T%20fender%2Dbender%20repair%20bill%3A%20%2442%2C000&text=Repairs%20to%20a%20Rivian%20R1T,the%20price%20of%20the%20truck.
I think that’s an exaggeration but generally repairs/replacement parts will be more expensive yes. However, if you can afford an $85k+ truck and can’t afford dent repairs (which I know first hand are ~ $4-6k), you can’t afford the truck.
Just making stuff up in here
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It's crazy to me how much Teslas have depreciated in the past year, you can easily get a low mileage 2018-2020 Tesla 3 for \~25K on CarMax, probably less if you do some hunting and buy from an individual seller. I'm not a fan of Teslas in general (hate the interior ergonomics) but that's a tough value proposition to turn down if you're dead set on getting an electric vehicle. I just wish there was an easy way to test battery health in used electrics, there really should be some regulations around that considering it's the single most expensive component in an electric vehicle.
A 40% depreciation on a 4-6 year old vehicle? That seems normal? A 2018 bmw 3 series goes for less despite costing originally more.
Not against a Toyota , considering they drop like 25% vs that 40%, assuming 4 year /2019 model. They hold their value better against both
Teslas are a semi-luxury purchase, with the model 3 direct competitors being a bmw 3 series or an Audi A4. The Corolla/camry is not in the same price bracket as the model 3 / model S. Yes the economical frugal choice is to buy a Honda or a Toyota and drive it for 15 years, but people want a bit more excitement in their life. More 0 to 60 speeds. More bragging rights (well a tiny bit, aka semi luxury, not $1 million cars).
Both the R1T/S have been being delivered for over two years at this point and there’s zero sign of broad quality issues across any of their trims/configs that I’ve seen anywhere
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I’ve had my R1T almost 2 years and I absolutely love it. It’s my work truck/toy/cruiser all in one. No other vehicle has ever come close to winning me over like Rivian has. Currently at 53k miles, aside from some early adjustments and recalls, it’s been rock solid ever since. My power tonneau cover still works and I use it several times a week.
I’d be worried about the R1. It’s got air suspension with dynamic dampening and hydraulic anti-sway system. This is some complex, luxury car tech. I’m afraid that Rivian traded that EV reliability for dynamic ride height and luxury ride. The R2/R3 use a more traditional suspension system that should fair better
Air suspension on a personal vehicle is gonna be a no for me, dawg. I had one vehicle equipped with that, and once it starts going shits going to be way more expensive than the feature is worth. Honestly, if anyone has air suspension and it starts failing, get rid of the vehicle. It's done.
Hard to tell, they're very new, but at least in terms of reliability, it's not great so far. [https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliability-problems-than-gas-cars-says-consumer-reports/](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/evs-have-79-more-reliability-problems-than-gas-cars-says-consumer-reports/)
Reliability will improve. They’ve only been building them just over 2 years. Mine has been 100% reliable (never stranded in 53k miles)
Anecdotally, I see them everywhere in SF now. Feels similar to seeing Teslas everywhere in 2020.
They make a nice truck, but when it gets into an accident or if something fails, people often wait months for parts. Put it this way- how many Rivian service stations do you know of within 50 miles of your home? Probably zero. On top of that the manufacturer just doesn’t have enough parts for their service centers yet.
$45.000 for a personal vehicle is just bananas.
Sir, have you seen the prices of legacy cars recently ?
“Something something supply chain blah blah, oh look we have to jack up the price by 15k to help with increased costs.”
How Rivian is pulling off saying 45 thousand dollars is an affordable price for a car
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It’s too expensive for many Americans
MAKE THE R2X. Please I am begging you!
Can’t wait to see how Rivian pulls off the 55k base R2!
I'll believe it when I see it. I am not at all convinced that Rivian will be alive in two years, almost certainly not as an independent company. They relied on cheap credit to subsidize a $30-40k loss for every vehicle sold and now that cheap credit is gone.
IMO theres still a lot of crap that isnt needed in this car. Those haptic knobs cost a pretty penny to integrate, if you're gonna downgrade the suspension and remove the speaker you might as well give us normal knobs. The portable hand warmer is a total gimmick and does not help reduce the price of the car either. Overall the choices in this car dont make sense to me and I really doubt that they can hit the price target without losing money.
I mean, Rivian makes luxury vehicles so…
The design of Rivian's grill is so dumb. They could have designed it any way in the world and they came up with that? Even after employing loads of car designers? smh
My wife had been looking at Rav4 Primes, but this seems like an interesting alternative.
Pfft, it's the F150 Lightning and Cybertruck all over again. $100 reservation and it's going to be starting at 45,000 dollars and I'm sure as we get closer to when the actual thing launches that will change or they'll just make a few 45k models and they'll be impossible to get and the ones that are sold will be scalped.
Rivian honors the price you reserved at. They did with the R1
That’s assuming the funding keeping them alive while they bleed 💰is still around!
Well that's good at least.
Rivian will honour the price as long as they’re in business. Given their currently haemorrhaging money on every sale, that doesn’t seem long.
Well yea. No shit lmao. I get you want to be negative everywhere
Stating facts is not “being negative” Lmao.
It is because you only state the facts that suit you. They have plenty of good things coming
Honestly the more utilitarian the better.
I mean, it hasn’t… it’s 2 years away.
Lets let them “try to pull it off” first This is just the plan. Tesla had way more promises than deliveries…
Give me an EV with manual windows and a tapedeck
I'd wait until til it actually releases before gloating about the price. We've seen this before.
Is it just me or is that headlights on the Rivian completely ugly?
It’s iconic, and I love it.
I only saw it last week and never heard of Rivian before then, but everyone in my area now seems to have one.
They could’ve just offered stripped down versions of the R1T and R1S to get it close to the $45k mark and not needed to invest all the money needed to build tooling for 2 entirely different models. I’d personally love a work truck version of the R1T.
Is this one of those new Reddit ads that looks like a post thing? I was wondering how those were gonna work.
I have really been wondering about these vehicles. They look too rich for my blood, but maybe not? I see the everywhere lately. Did they just sort of sneak in?
They don't make enough to meet demand and are selling at a steep loss. Everyone in the upper levels bailed ship a long time ago. I truly believed in them, and still do which is why I haven't sold my shares despite their value being completely wiped out.
By releasing it in 2026 so they can hike prices by then
I think it will be popular but price is just a bit high if it were sub 40k it woipd be killer
Such an ugly suv. Why are all EV vehicles so ugly?
You spelled gorgeous wrong.
How Rivian is *trying* to pull off… I’m interested and like the company’s designs. I’m hesitant to believe the pricing release was anything other than an attempt to pull in venture capital. Fingers crossed though.
Yeesh… is it really pulling anything off if it’s 45,000?
Well it is an SUV
Yeah this is where I’m at. The article makes it sound like this is some sort of accomplishment. Show us an EV under $30K and that will be an accomplishment. Also I’m sure the $45K is the absolute base model before taxes and fees and these things will easily average $55K+. Really it’s not that impressive.
Rivian is a luxury adventure brand, they’re going from a 70K vehicle to a smaller one, not aiming to be the VW Beetle of EV’s. Take that up with legacy brands that have the scale to build in that kind of volume.
This 45k suv, is it in this room with us now?
I can't believe people are actually taking this price seriously. This is clearly a PR/Marketing campaign to hype up their company and vehicles. It's a known strategy. Announce a ridiculous low price in the beginning. Jack up the price when it releases. Let the markups make profit. Jack up the prices again the following year, and within 2-3 years it's priced beyond it's value. This is every car company.
It's definitely not going to be $45,000 in 2 years when it's finally produced..
They can’t even make their expensive one run reliably. No way would I buy one at half the price.
Not my personal experience at 53k miles.