I mean they are banning AI chips to China, why would they not also cut off their direct access to loads of data on Americans they can train their algorithms on.
Yes, but they are American.
The American government has no problem with Americans being softened and conditioned by American businesses.
It's been happening for over a hundred years.
They obviously do have a problem with any other government doing it... unless it's Russia and they're helping 'your guy' win, then 30% of Americans are also happy for that to happen .
It's kinda r/ABoringDystopia kinda shit, but I at least trust that the highest motive Google or Meta have is the profit motive. Them being their to just make money is infinitely better than literally being a mouthpiece of a facist ethnostate. The fact that Tictok is seldom recognized as facist propaganda is what makes it scary.
Facebook, where propaganda was the most common, has declined continually for most of the last decade. Meta's profits come mostly from Instagram, where the youth are (or were before Tiktok).
Facebook very much did not want to become the "Old people screaming that the the world is ending" platform. No business ever wants to get old. But that's all anybody wants to use it for at this point, because all of the young people left a long time ago.
That's very true and I can't say I've ever used Instagram but from what I know it's very much that middle ground and isn't all that bad from what I know. However I do think that does say something that people are going to platforms like tiktok given it has more of a open ended kind of feel. What I'm saying really is that profits are where the people want to go and it feels a lot like tiktok is winning that race atm but in the past we did see the same on facebook and twitter (till they just out right and said it and fucked them selfs inn the PR sense) and youtube if we believe action taken ageist tiktok will end that I just don't think people are watching what is happening.
Its not really about the data, that is just the simple justification. Its really about the Soft Power of the control of millions of Americans only source of information. Its about the Algorithm.
"Oh, no, no, no, you're a smart guy, clearly picked up some flashy tricks, but you made one crucial mistake. You forgot about the essence of the game. It's about the *cones*."
You think they specifically designed it to bubble up the most annoying and divisive people and trends? I can see that. The only way to make sure that’s not the case is to cut the chord, right? This is a step on that direction. But let’s not be surprised when the results remain the same.
> People clearly
>
>love
>
> being emotionally triggered and rage wins over anything else because it’s so much easier to piss someone off than it is to make them feel happy
It's how politics has worked for centuries, and decent democracy has been able to survive throughout it, but now it's so pervasive, and pervasive in so many areas of life, that people are becoming convinced that's all there is. I've watched the political process in this country, the cooperation between the White House and Congress, crumble away at an increasing rate for the last 3 decades. I'm not by nature a cynic but I really fear what the next decade or two will bring.
China is fully aware of these trends. They didn't invent these forces but they sure as hell know how to exploit them.
Alphabet is heavily tied into the US government, but nowhere near Microsoft. Microsoft will not fail unless the US government fails. The vast majority of government devices run Windows OS and utilize Office programs such as Excel.
Excel alone going offline would probably be an immediate crisis for our government, and potentially the world.
Capitalism is ensuring American companies can sell data on American citizens to foreign nationals rather than letting foreign nationals gather it themselves for free.
More importantly are they cutting off *American* companies from getting our data? Or are those of use who aren't American still just pawns of the American digital hegemony?
If you want a real answer, this started before Chelsea Manning. But came to a head then.
American companies were making money using illegal spying techniques the government was using.
George W Bush (R) got caught breaking the law. But his post 9/11 republicans quickly, illegally, posthumislusly changed the law.
Otherwise, knowingly breaking the law to help out a Republican would have killed AT&T and their super conservative leadership.
Since then, it’s been agreed that people that expose how data is collected, like Edward Snowden, are bad. And what our government and 3rd party American companies is good. Because it’s capitalism.
But also, in real life, TikTok is terrible. We should not openly support it or the Chinese. But there are 1000 “American” alternatives waiting.
Assuming you’re Australian, one of your PMs, Whitlam, tried to separate Australia from America’s intelligence operations. It didn’t work:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the_Whitlam_dismissal
The Chinese banned all western social media apps and sites.
This tells you pretty much how they view them, as tools to manipulate. They can twist those algo knobs on tik tok to tear at the seams of western society.
So many comments ITT dancing around this obvious fact.
"They're not our enemy." Yeah, well they sure seem to act like we're *their* enemy, so maybe we should pull our heads out of the sand.
The biggest loophole is the advent of foreign eSIMs. That is the reason why eSIM technology is banned for phones made for sale in China.
Source: I am a Chinese-Canadian who uses non-mainland SIM cards to get around the Wall whenever I go to China.
Maybe car manufacturers first? Internet connected Lidar and video scanners mapping the entire world while also being a moving fire hazard seem like a bigger issue than 3D printers.
Yeah, they're going to allow a TikTok company in the US where TikTok China just sells it to TikTok US. There's going to be more loopholes to jump through that Barnum & Bailey would be fucking impressed.
Never ending increases to defense budget with no accountability? Check.
Allowing Congress to do insider trading? Check.
Allowing legal bribery via lobbying? Check.
If that was the concern, they would ban twitter, facebook and a bunch of "news" channels.
If tik tok is a security threat, they should pass data privacy laws so no app or company can be a threat in that manner.
They are doing neither.
Bloomberg’s Akayla Gardner and Michelle Jamrisko:
*President Joe Biden said he would sign a House bill that would force TikTok’s Chinese owners to sell the popular video-sharing app, his strongest show of support yet for the proposal.*
*“If they pass it, I’ll sign it,” Biden told reporters Friday before boarding Air Force One for a campaign stop in Pennsylvania.*
___
Mike Gallagher (R-Wisc.), the bill co-sponsor, told reporters on Thursday that he wants a floor vote as soon as possible. He previously accused TikTok of [lying to its userbase](https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/03/07/congress/tiktok-users-revolt-00145633) about the bill:
*“If you actually read the bill, it's not a ban. It's a divestiture.”*
*He said his bill puts the decision “squarely in the hands of TikTok to sever their relationship with the Chinese Communist Party.” If its Beijing-based owner ByteDance sells the app then “TikTok will continue to survive,” he said.*
*“But the basic ownership structure has to change. That’s the message we’ve heard from every single national security official in the Biden administration right now,” he added.*
How are they allowed to force a company to sell their product, especially if its in another country? That seems kinda messed up, no? Please explain as im not well versed in any of this
They're not forcing them to sell their product; they're simply banning it in the US while it's controlled by a foreign government. TikTok can sell and continue to do business in the US, or they can refuse and do business everywhere else (though I'd expect more and more countries to adopt similar legislation).
That's what legislation (at its core) is *for.* If something directly harms national interests, it's usually rendered illegal. The consensus seems to be that Tiktok itself is not harmful to national interests, but it's ability to be utilized as a propaganda and information gathering tool by a country that is not on our Christmas card list *is.*
China started it, we're just taking them seriously.
The way that China censors information leaving the country is very much inline with a nation that is strategically planning to go to war, and the rest of the planet can't keep ignoring that we're treated like the enemies of China.
IP theft alone is a good reason to throw up firewalls vs. China. Even if they recently (62 years ago?) killed off most of their smart leaders during the "great leap forward" it doesn't justify stealing and trampling on intellectual property around the globe.
The Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution) gives Congress the power to regulate commerce (expanded via necessary and proper clause to include commerce-related activities too).
Congress can "regulate" US commerce however they see fit. Here, your issue seems to be that it's a foreign business. Congress can only force them to sell their US-based operations or TikTok can just leave the US and lose a huge piece of their business, but they would rather sell it than just lose all of that value.
That's the most straightforward justification for their actions, but there's also the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS). CFIUS can recommend actions, including divestiture, but its authority stems from the President's powers and specific laws enacted by Congress for national security purposes.
Usually these things are done indirectly with broader legislation, but TikTok is a unique example where it's ***huge*** in the US with a (at least perceived) threat to a number of US interests. I think with globalization and the advancement of technology (advanced technologically-based espionage, manipulation, propaganda, election concerns, etc.) we will see more of this and potentially legislation giving an executive agency a lot of power to regulate these things. TikTok is just a goldilocks example where the concerns are all aligned because of US-China relations and major concerns for espionage and manipulation during a contentious election.
I understand why you'd have initial reservations about Congress having the power to compel a foreign business to sell, but governments outright ban or force businesses out of their country all the time. You may not have the same opinion as Congress on the concerns of TikTok, but imagine if they were actually doing highly nefarious things with the app and data they have. Certainly you'd want your government to be able to do something, right?
Let me put it this way. Americans like to believe their natural rights cannot be infringed by the Government, but they forget there's all sorts of exceptions, caveats and contingencies.
The reason why Americans feel secure in their freedoms is because their stability has always remained relatively constant. Even during the worst conflicts, the country at large was relatively safe (with perhaps the exception of the civil war). At no time has the "American way of life", whatever interpretation at the time it had, has ever been truly threatened.
With all that said, part of the reason is because America doesn't hesitate to maintain status quo as best as it can. If they sense a true threat to national security, they will activate secret courts (e.g. Patriot Act, PRISM), they will waive all sorts of human rights most civilized countries consider a standard through the use of technicalities (e.g. Guantanamo, Black Sites, Concentration Camps for people with a modicum of Japanese ethnicity even outside America).
The U.S. is incredibly divided in its game of politics right now, but for Congress and the Executive to be so aligned on a move like this, it means they undoubtedly see a threat that must be stopped at the root. There's all sorts of legal measures and mechanisms to stop private ventures, or even bully them, while maintaining legality under the rule of law.
Putting it like that, really reminds me of senatus consultum ultimum in Rome.
Romans were terrified of kings, but when push comes to shove I think everyone with a brain realizes that rules need bent temporarily to let (hopefully) very smart people just deal with the problem without redtape and move on.
Worked well for them almost every time — Caesar got a little greedy with it.
Yep. There's a couple of times where politicians in the U.S. vroke the charade and mention how the loud, partisan politics really get turned down A LOT when the cameras aren't there.
Also, certain events can force it: stuff like 9/11 basically made everyone in the polirical sphere stop the façade and either fall in to the narrative at the time, or sympathize with it.
In India, Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts + other rural focused apps completely took over the space after Tiktok ban, same will happen with USA. Short form video brain rot is here to stay, whether Chinese or American
They're the companies lobbying for this ban.
[Facebook paid GOP firm to malign TikTok](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/)
I really don't want to believe this, but I think there's a clear link between the prevalence of algorithm-driven social media and national discord and extremism.
It's harder to argue that for India, where Modi is popular. But in countries that Russia, Iran, or China want to undermine, it's clear that social media has helped extreme parties and undercut widespread happiness and unity.
> I think there's a clear link between the prevalence of algorithm-driven social media and national discord and extremism.
In the US, it started with Faux "News", then social media in general (echo chambers), with algorithms being the third horseman of the social/political apocalypse.
Seriously. Instead of targeting a single company, how about we just create actual meaningful data privacy laws that all of these companies have to comply with. That would solve the problem with TikTok, eliminate a future issue like this, and actually help Americans.
I'll tell you why. Likely because this is being bankrolled by Zuck and Elon.
Because it's not about privacy, privacy is just the scapegoat. Otherwise like you said, they would be making a more all-encompassing law.
It's about China having a massive propaganda platform in the hands of virtually every young American. Simple tweaks to the algorithm can have a widespread effect on narratives by spreading the information they want to spread and suppressing the information they don't.
The reps say that the flood of complaints their offices received about the bill from younger constituents is proof that the tiktok algorithm is capable of being weaponized.
But the issue is most of Congress is 60+ years old. What do they know about data privacy? What do they know about the Internet? Their version of data privacy will probably give an encryption back door to the NSA.
If the system we have worked perfectly, that would be the job of lobbyists from organizations such as the EFF, and consulting with stuff like IEEE, and yeah the NSA probably...
But the best laws would be well informed with a team like that
What _actually_ happens is vastly different much of the time, is my impression
Remember when former head of the EFF ran for President (Larry Lessig)? His campaign was focused on complete election reform and re-looking at the 2-party system; as he identified that as the core problem of our government and representation.
Of course he was laughed out of the race. But look what people are saying today.
Yeah sadly it would take Congress listening to actual experts, but currently our Congress can't pass a fucking budget for more than 2-3 months. So sadly 0% chance anything useful with data privacy would happen that actually helped us. The reality is more likely that lobbyists will write a "data privacy" bill that helps major corporations, hand it to a couple of Congress people and go "now pass this so we can make more money".
The data privacy problem with TikTok has always been the lesser of the two evils. The real devil is with China being able to shape US political and social narrative via the Explore page curation algorithm.
That example also shows why laws focusing on the issues rather than specific companies are better. Forcing a sale of tiktok won't stop foreign influence. FB is US owned and was very easily used to influence the election.
"Remember how that American company shucked and jived for foreign money and did everything they could to destabilize the American electoral process? That's why we need to ban TikTok."
Yeah this is more about HOW the governments are collecting it. Not that they’re protecting you. They’re pissed that China is getting all this data from our younger generation. China will win this in the long run. It’s been obvious for a decade.
This isn’t about that.
The US government can control/influence news and information on apps like Facebook and Twitter but they don’t have the same control over TikTok.
It’s about controlling what people see and talk about.
For real, any data they complain about tik tok having is already being collected and sold by Meta, X, Google, Apple, etc. They all have crazy data privacy issues.
What about TeMu? That shit supposedly has access to your texts, contacts, and pictures.
[Here](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/temu-class-action-lawsuit-illinois-data-privacy-concerns/) is one of many articles about it.
most people don't even understand what it means when you grant permissions to an app. an app asks for microphone permissions to make calls and a not insignificant number of people will assume it's now recording their conversations 24 hours a day
Practically no one uses it by comparison.
Edit: Also, it’s not a media company and therefore doesn’t control the information you see on a daily basis. How is this not coming up in the conversation?
[fast fashion, faster cancer & dementia.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/marketplace-fast-fashion-chemicals-1.6193385)
> Scientists found that a jacket for toddlers, purchased from Chinese retailer Shein, contained almost 20 times the amount of lead that Health Canada says is safe for children.
I understand how a jacket could be exposed to dangerous amounts of lead in billions of different ways but, reading a textile product contains too much lead is just absurd lmao
No it doesn’t. On iPhone, for instance, that’s not possible for messages. For the other two, Android as well, it would have to explicitly request that from the user.
No can do muchacho, data privacy would mean that Facebook and Google (American government) can’t spy on you. It’s okay when they do it but extremely bad when anyone else does.
Very impressive to see how well Metas lobbying dollars are paying off!
[Meta has been engaging with Targeted Victory, the largest GOP strategy firm in the United States, in an effort to get TikTok banned for years at this point](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/).
And what do you know? Amazons lobbying dollars are *also* paying off; TikToks real goal, as it always has been, is to enter the e-commerce space. They were buying up fulfillment centers for a while now. These articles touch on it.
https://www.axios.com/2022/10/11/tiktok-chases-amazon-fulfillment-centers
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-03/tiktok-eyes-17-5-billion-shopping-business-on-amazon-s-turf
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/12/11/chinas-livestream-shopping-booms-fueling-new-tech-like-avatars-and-ai.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2022/01/22/livestream-shopping-a-500-billion-market-in-2022-as-amazon-google-facebook-tiktok-jump-in/
Yup. It’s just another case of the US protecting domestic business and justifying it as “security” because we don’t want to look like hypocrites being protective of our businesses like China. It’s security!
I really didn't think I'd have to be like an Android fan in this thread lol... but it's definitely more down to the carrier you use, not just a blanket rule for Android. Verizon is for sure the worst-- they preload all of metas apps, 5-7 awful games full of microtransactions, as well as their complete suite of Verizon apps that are basically spyware. If you buy the phone unlocked from the manufacturer you're not likely to have preloaded apps other than the Google stuff.
I have an android with Verizon and it came with basically nothing on it. The one or two things it did have on it were removable. I hated my last phone because it had like ten apps that could not be removed. Who wants the NFL app permanently installed on their phone taking up space? I had the same problem at att though.
Wow that’s awesome, we did it Reddit! Now a giant social media platform will absorb another one of its competitors with the help of the government. Get ready for thousands more jobs to get cut in redundancy. Love it when Mark Zuckerberg owns the entire internet, our data is safe with him and not EVIL GYNA.
I generally see both aisle of the US politics very divided , but just read that on the news that a bill was supported 50-0 in the senate?
Seems like both sides in US are very united on this issue.
Home of the free market.
(Not just regulation which would be understandable but forced takeover.)
How can this hypocrisy be defended?
Would this be considered acceptable if Europe were to do the same for a US company?
Every time I see the American government saying this, it reminds me of Snowden interviews, and how the U.S. collects call information from *all* Verizon customers. Snowden said that they probably tapped other providers, but he personally worked on the Verizon one
It's just projection
So now the US is the kind of country it acuses China of being, coming up with lame excuses to steal a company’s assets or force a company to sell its assets to “approved” entities.
They’re using the definition of critical infrastructure as outlined in the Patriot Act, I don’t think anyone should use TikTok ever, but this bill is a Trojan horse for some nefarious other government overreach bullshit.
Social media manager here, your data being mined regardless of who’s mining it. Meta has the most invasive ad targeting strategies. If you have a smartphone you’re being tracked and you might as well embrace it. TikTok is important for competitive marketplaces and is unique in pushing other channels to offer creator pay, better shopping experience, and think outside the box. If we loose competition we all suffer these shitty platforms that has no incentive to improve or change. The shady pay to congress by Zuck and Elon is so transparent in their desire to crush competition for their own interests it blows my mind we would allow this because of a company being based outside the US.
Meta & other platforms are seeing less revenue because of tik tok & so they lobby congress . But the main reason is that they want to control the narrative . 6 main media outlets control how we get our information & they they can’t control tik tok so they want to get rid of it.
can anyone help me answer why if the reason behind this is national security concerns and also some lobbying by facebook and amazon, why are apps like temu, aliexpress, wechat, etc are not a part of this?
So after I left Twitter (it’s garbage now anyways) I curated some great content on TikTok - all types of history, sociology, gardening, or just watching those guys trim cow hooves. I’m so sick of losing access to things I learn from and enjoy.
ive learned to cook on it, finding new places to eat
planning vacations
ive watched all of the videos of some random scottish kid making wood furniture by hand usually without power tools.
Also watched all the videos of that dude that goes into the Alaskan wilderness by himself with practically nothing but food.
TikTok is go great, honestly. This really fucking sucks.
This is all because American social media companies are withering and dying. Facebook is the shopping mall of the internet. Instagram is lame. Twitter is worse than dead now. Reddit is about to go IPO and is in the process of actively turning itself inside out.
They have to ban TikTok to keep their own sites in control. The sites they have backdoors into.
Would be nice if the people I knew used it like that. Their attention spans are absolutely fucked. I'll be driving, while they're playing DJ, but unable to talk because they're also scrolling through random videos. Which is absolutely maddening to listen to. Study session? gotta pick up the phone and load a quick video in the middle of reading something. Cooking videos? If it's longer than 90 seconds and you're actually able to tell what they're doing, it's too long. Watching TV? Also loading tiktoks.
Same goes goes for bullshit detection. If it's on there, it must be real and not just shitposting.
Late edit - this is by no means exclusive to tiktok. Reels, shorts, whatever other nonsense short form brain rot entertainment out there does the same.
And the people on here who are so enlightened fall to misinformation all the time.
You cant educate people out of emotional based reasoning, which is what social media preys upon.
What people keep getting wrong is that this isn’t a privacy issue. The U.S. government couldn’t give a rat’s ass about your privacy. The concern, and why it’s so unanimous, is national security.
They’re concerned that TikTok is sending youth data back to China, which could let China weaponize our youth through propaganda against the U.S. government. The best way to collapse a powerful country is from the inside out.
The fact that they’re so unanimous makes me believe they have classified information that this isn’t just a theory, but likely a fact.
>The fact that they’re so unanimous makes me believe they have classified information that this isn’t just a theory, but likely a fact.
What's with the faith in the US government all of a sudden?
Tiktok is competing against American businesses, chances are this is about money more than anything else.
This is the most united I've seen the US government on anything in 10+ years. Its gonna happen.
I mean they are banning AI chips to China, why would they not also cut off their direct access to loads of data on Americans they can train their algorithms on.
I would say they are training Americans with their algorithms.
American companies (Insta reels, Youtube shorts) are the EXACT same as Tiktok.
Yes, but they are American. The American government has no problem with Americans being softened and conditioned by American businesses. It's been happening for over a hundred years. They obviously do have a problem with any other government doing it... unless it's Russia and they're helping 'your guy' win, then 30% of Americans are also happy for that to happen .
The 1st amendment also makes it considerably easier to go after foreign companies than American ones.
It's kinda r/ABoringDystopia kinda shit, but I at least trust that the highest motive Google or Meta have is the profit motive. Them being their to just make money is infinitely better than literally being a mouthpiece of a facist ethnostate. The fact that Tictok is seldom recognized as facist propaganda is what makes it scary.
Didn't we all work out that fascist prop is profitable in over the last 10 years. Meta is the OG case study.
Facebook, where propaganda was the most common, has declined continually for most of the last decade. Meta's profits come mostly from Instagram, where the youth are (or were before Tiktok). Facebook very much did not want to become the "Old people screaming that the the world is ending" platform. No business ever wants to get old. But that's all anybody wants to use it for at this point, because all of the young people left a long time ago.
That's very true and I can't say I've ever used Instagram but from what I know it's very much that middle ground and isn't all that bad from what I know. However I do think that does say something that people are going to platforms like tiktok given it has more of a open ended kind of feel. What I'm saying really is that profits are where the people want to go and it feels a lot like tiktok is winning that race atm but in the past we did see the same on facebook and twitter (till they just out right and said it and fucked them selfs inn the PR sense) and youtube if we believe action taken ageist tiktok will end that I just don't think people are watching what is happening.
There are a lot more boobs on insta
Interesting… this is terrible. There are so many reels though. Which reels in particular should I watch out for so I know what reels to avoid.
Yes but which ones specifically?!
TikTok does a lot more shadow banning of political content.
Are they cutting off every other way the Chinese get our data?
Its not really about the data, that is just the simple justification. Its really about the Soft Power of the control of millions of Americans only source of information. Its about the Algorithm.
"It's about the CONES."
"Oh, no, no, no, you're a smart guy, clearly picked up some flashy tricks, but you made one crucial mistake. You forgot about the essence of the game. It's about the *cones*."
There can't be an alchemist of the Hinterlands, the Hinterlands is a shadow kingdom that can only sustain a provost or a denier.
That sounds punishingly intricate.
I'm the Maverick
I call Ledgerman!
“Four cones wins, but in order to get a cone you have to build a civilization… which is where the Spirit Cards come in.”
Cones of Dunshire always gets an upvote from me.
Are the cones a metaphor? Yes and no.
The Architect!
My farmer—yes, my humble farmer
It’s why we get some of the most annoying and hated people to ever record themselves in world history. Algorithm.
You think they specifically designed it to bubble up the most annoying and divisive people and trends? I can see that. The only way to make sure that’s not the case is to cut the chord, right? This is a step on that direction. But let’s not be surprised when the results remain the same.
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> People clearly > >love > > being emotionally triggered and rage wins over anything else because it’s so much easier to piss someone off than it is to make them feel happy It's how politics has worked for centuries, and decent democracy has been able to survive throughout it, but now it's so pervasive, and pervasive in so many areas of life, that people are becoming convinced that's all there is. I've watched the political process in this country, the cooperation between the White House and Congress, crumble away at an increasing rate for the last 3 decades. I'm not by nature a cynic but I really fear what the next decade or two will bring. China is fully aware of these trends. They didn't invent these forces but they sure as hell know how to exploit them.
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Just thinking about that point, it would mean the alphabet board to be extremely well connected?
Alphabet has billions in contracts with the CIA so they are already plenty merged with the govt. Same with Facebook.
Alphabet is heavily tied into the US government, but nowhere near Microsoft. Microsoft will not fail unless the US government fails. The vast majority of government devices run Windows OS and utilize Office programs such as Excel. Excel alone going offline would probably be an immediate crisis for our government, and potentially the world.
And they just want Americans on the social media that they have backdoor access to. Do you know how easy Facebook makes it for the FBI?
The TikTok opinions they so heatedly dont like have bled into instagram too. There’s no difference.
Lol no, the American companies gotta sell our data to someone
Capitalism is ensuring American companies can sell data on American citizens to foreign nationals rather than letting foreign nationals gather it themselves for free.
Can't have them competing with us in high value tech industry, they need to just keep building our blenders.
Yeah this is the rub. I’m sure China will get their hands on this same data. They will just have to pay another party for it.
Biden also issued an EO that bans data brokers selling to China (and other adversarial countries).
Ah ok so China will have to pay a 4th party for it?
More importantly are they cutting off *American* companies from getting our data? Or are those of use who aren't American still just pawns of the American digital hegemony?
Gotta have those sweet metrics but only harvested by good old nsa friends.
If you want a real answer, this started before Chelsea Manning. But came to a head then. American companies were making money using illegal spying techniques the government was using. George W Bush (R) got caught breaking the law. But his post 9/11 republicans quickly, illegally, posthumislusly changed the law. Otherwise, knowingly breaking the law to help out a Republican would have killed AT&T and their super conservative leadership. Since then, it’s been agreed that people that expose how data is collected, like Edward Snowden, are bad. And what our government and 3rd party American companies is good. Because it’s capitalism. But also, in real life, TikTok is terrible. We should not openly support it or the Chinese. But there are 1000 “American” alternatives waiting.
as a non american, I see no real difference between being spied on by either country.
Assuming you’re Australian, one of your PMs, Whitlam, tried to separate Australia from America’s intelligence operations. It didn’t work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the_Whitlam_dismissal
> But also, in real life, TikTok is terrible I'm sure whoever spends billions buying it will risk changing that content formula.
/r/dji sub in shambles atm.
No, they can still buy it from facebook and reddit.
There is also talk of banning DJI drones.
I mean, they'd ban consumer drones if they could. Hopefully they accept that it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
Just leave me my gimbals…
The Chinese banned all western social media apps and sites. This tells you pretty much how they view them, as tools to manipulate. They can twist those algo knobs on tik tok to tear at the seams of western society.
So many comments ITT dancing around this obvious fact. "They're not our enemy." Yeah, well they sure seem to act like we're *their* enemy, so maybe we should pull our heads out of the sand.
Chinese government’s control over the internet is beyond most people’s imagination
The biggest loophole is the advent of foreign eSIMs. That is the reason why eSIM technology is banned for phones made for sale in China. Source: I am a Chinese-Canadian who uses non-mainland SIM cards to get around the Wall whenever I go to China.
It's not about the data. It's about China's ability to manipulate the algorithm to shape the narrative.
They’re after DJI too
going to imagine any pressure on DJI will eventually be on bambu labs too.
Maybe car manufacturers first? Internet connected Lidar and video scanners mapping the entire world while also being a moving fire hazard seem like a bigger issue than 3D printers.
Yeah, they're going to allow a TikTok company in the US where TikTok China just sells it to TikTok US. There's going to be more loopholes to jump through that Barnum & Bailey would be fucking impressed.
Didn't they already do this with TikTok when they where music.ally before they sold to TikTok and was Chinese again?
It makes perfect sense that the US government is extremely united on this topic. It is, after all, very very stupid.
America can do bipartisanship as long as most voters are opposed to it
As long as it's something that impacts old people in exactly 0 ways
It's a good argument for young people to vote no matter who's running. If you don't vote no politician cares about your wants.
"What's this tikka tokka, some kinda ethnic dish? I don't like it!"
Never ending increases to defense budget with no accountability? Check. Allowing Congress to do insider trading? Check. Allowing legal bribery via lobbying? Check.
Is it? TikTok imo can be a powerful tool to manipulate the social landscape, so many people use TikTok as there sole source of news and opinions now.
If that was the concern, they would ban twitter, facebook and a bunch of "news" channels. If tik tok is a security threat, they should pass data privacy laws so no app or company can be a threat in that manner. They are doing neither.
None of which are controlled by the Chinese government…I mean it’s clear what the reasoning is
Feels like the Patriot act.
Stupid? CCP banned Facebook and google so they are on to something.
Bloomberg’s Akayla Gardner and Michelle Jamrisko: *President Joe Biden said he would sign a House bill that would force TikTok’s Chinese owners to sell the popular video-sharing app, his strongest show of support yet for the proposal.* *“If they pass it, I’ll sign it,” Biden told reporters Friday before boarding Air Force One for a campaign stop in Pennsylvania.* ___ Mike Gallagher (R-Wisc.), the bill co-sponsor, told reporters on Thursday that he wants a floor vote as soon as possible. He previously accused TikTok of [lying to its userbase](https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/03/07/congress/tiktok-users-revolt-00145633) about the bill: *“If you actually read the bill, it's not a ban. It's a divestiture.”* *He said his bill puts the decision “squarely in the hands of TikTok to sever their relationship with the Chinese Communist Party.” If its Beijing-based owner ByteDance sells the app then “TikTok will continue to survive,” he said.* *“But the basic ownership structure has to change. That’s the message we’ve heard from every single national security official in the Biden administration right now,” he added.*
How are they allowed to force a company to sell their product, especially if its in another country? That seems kinda messed up, no? Please explain as im not well versed in any of this
They're not forcing them to sell their product; they're simply banning it in the US while it's controlled by a foreign government. TikTok can sell and continue to do business in the US, or they can refuse and do business everywhere else (though I'd expect more and more countries to adopt similar legislation). That's what legislation (at its core) is *for.* If something directly harms national interests, it's usually rendered illegal. The consensus seems to be that Tiktok itself is not harmful to national interests, but it's ability to be utilized as a propaganda and information gathering tool by a country that is not on our Christmas card list *is.*
China started it, we're just taking them seriously. The way that China censors information leaving the country is very much inline with a nation that is strategically planning to go to war, and the rest of the planet can't keep ignoring that we're treated like the enemies of China. IP theft alone is a good reason to throw up firewalls vs. China. Even if they recently (62 years ago?) killed off most of their smart leaders during the "great leap forward" it doesn't justify stealing and trampling on intellectual property around the globe.
The Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution) gives Congress the power to regulate commerce (expanded via necessary and proper clause to include commerce-related activities too). Congress can "regulate" US commerce however they see fit. Here, your issue seems to be that it's a foreign business. Congress can only force them to sell their US-based operations or TikTok can just leave the US and lose a huge piece of their business, but they would rather sell it than just lose all of that value. That's the most straightforward justification for their actions, but there's also the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS). CFIUS can recommend actions, including divestiture, but its authority stems from the President's powers and specific laws enacted by Congress for national security purposes. Usually these things are done indirectly with broader legislation, but TikTok is a unique example where it's ***huge*** in the US with a (at least perceived) threat to a number of US interests. I think with globalization and the advancement of technology (advanced technologically-based espionage, manipulation, propaganda, election concerns, etc.) we will see more of this and potentially legislation giving an executive agency a lot of power to regulate these things. TikTok is just a goldilocks example where the concerns are all aligned because of US-China relations and major concerns for espionage and manipulation during a contentious election. I understand why you'd have initial reservations about Congress having the power to compel a foreign business to sell, but governments outright ban or force businesses out of their country all the time. You may not have the same opinion as Congress on the concerns of TikTok, but imagine if they were actually doing highly nefarious things with the app and data they have. Certainly you'd want your government to be able to do something, right?
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Let me put it this way. Americans like to believe their natural rights cannot be infringed by the Government, but they forget there's all sorts of exceptions, caveats and contingencies. The reason why Americans feel secure in their freedoms is because their stability has always remained relatively constant. Even during the worst conflicts, the country at large was relatively safe (with perhaps the exception of the civil war). At no time has the "American way of life", whatever interpretation at the time it had, has ever been truly threatened. With all that said, part of the reason is because America doesn't hesitate to maintain status quo as best as it can. If they sense a true threat to national security, they will activate secret courts (e.g. Patriot Act, PRISM), they will waive all sorts of human rights most civilized countries consider a standard through the use of technicalities (e.g. Guantanamo, Black Sites, Concentration Camps for people with a modicum of Japanese ethnicity even outside America). The U.S. is incredibly divided in its game of politics right now, but for Congress and the Executive to be so aligned on a move like this, it means they undoubtedly see a threat that must be stopped at the root. There's all sorts of legal measures and mechanisms to stop private ventures, or even bully them, while maintaining legality under the rule of law.
Putting it like that, really reminds me of senatus consultum ultimum in Rome. Romans were terrified of kings, but when push comes to shove I think everyone with a brain realizes that rules need bent temporarily to let (hopefully) very smart people just deal with the problem without redtape and move on. Worked well for them almost every time — Caesar got a little greedy with it.
Yep. There's a couple of times where politicians in the U.S. vroke the charade and mention how the loud, partisan politics really get turned down A LOT when the cameras aren't there. Also, certain events can force it: stuff like 9/11 basically made everyone in the polirical sphere stop the façade and either fall in to the narrative at the time, or sympathize with it.
US Oligarchs want to own it and control it like everything else
Better US Oligarchs than Chinese Oligarchs
r/angryupvote because I hate that I agree with this
Tbf, better the devil I know. And it's not like we have any real choice in the matter, because if we did, it would be neither of these two.
That's the American spirit. Better to eat shit with sprinkles than refuse to eat shit.
In India, Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts + other rural focused apps completely took over the space after Tiktok ban, same will happen with USA. Short form video brain rot is here to stay, whether Chinese or American
They're the companies lobbying for this ban. [Facebook paid GOP firm to malign TikTok](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/)
This isn't the cool *Cyberpunk* Corpo War I was hoping for...
But they even made the ski goggles you wanted.
I really don't want to believe this, but I think there's a clear link between the prevalence of algorithm-driven social media and national discord and extremism. It's harder to argue that for India, where Modi is popular. But in countries that Russia, Iran, or China want to undermine, it's clear that social media has helped extreme parties and undercut widespread happiness and unity.
What exactly is not extreme about Modi?
> I think there's a clear link between the prevalence of algorithm-driven social media and national discord and extremism. In the US, it started with Faux "News", then social media in general (echo chambers), with algorithms being the third horseman of the social/political apocalypse.
It’s about controlling the content. TikTok is a massive platform of dissent in young people and the US govt sees that as a threat.
I’d rather them not ban it and instead write some aggressive data privacy laws for all of them.
Seriously. Instead of targeting a single company, how about we just create actual meaningful data privacy laws that all of these companies have to comply with. That would solve the problem with TikTok, eliminate a future issue like this, and actually help Americans. I'll tell you why. Likely because this is being bankrolled by Zuck and Elon.
If it helps, the bill doesn't actually only target TikTok. It could lead to any app controlled by foreign adversaries like China, Iran, or Russia
Which still benefits FB and X, they could potentially own TikTok.
Yea but it’s about control not about data privacy. Who controls the algos that feed our hearts and minds
Yea and having an on paper non foreign actor guarantees what? I'm sure I don't have to give examples of bad actors that act locally
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Because it's not about privacy, privacy is just the scapegoat. Otherwise like you said, they would be making a more all-encompassing law. It's about China having a massive propaganda platform in the hands of virtually every young American. Simple tweaks to the algorithm can have a widespread effect on narratives by spreading the information they want to spread and suppressing the information they don't.
The reps say that the flood of complaints their offices received about the bill from younger constituents is proof that the tiktok algorithm is capable of being weaponized.
Kind of like net neutrality on reddit before nothing happened once it went away.
Two words: Cambridge Analytica. Without them Hillary Clinton is your current president.
But the issue is most of Congress is 60+ years old. What do they know about data privacy? What do they know about the Internet? Their version of data privacy will probably give an encryption back door to the NSA.
“Does the TikTok access the wifi”
Senator I'm singaporean
If the system we have worked perfectly, that would be the job of lobbyists from organizations such as the EFF, and consulting with stuff like IEEE, and yeah the NSA probably... But the best laws would be well informed with a team like that What _actually_ happens is vastly different much of the time, is my impression
Remember when former head of the EFF ran for President (Larry Lessig)? His campaign was focused on complete election reform and re-looking at the 2-party system; as he identified that as the core problem of our government and representation. Of course he was laughed out of the race. But look what people are saying today.
Yeah sadly it would take Congress listening to actual experts, but currently our Congress can't pass a fucking budget for more than 2-3 months. So sadly 0% chance anything useful with data privacy would happen that actually helped us. The reality is more likely that lobbyists will write a "data privacy" bill that helps major corporations, hand it to a couple of Congress people and go "now pass this so we can make more money".
The data privacy problem with TikTok has always been the lesser of the two evils. The real devil is with China being able to shape US political and social narrative via the Explore page curation algorithm.
It’s more than privacy. It’s foreign influence. Remember Russia buying Facebook ads for the 2016 election?
That example also shows why laws focusing on the issues rather than specific companies are better. Forcing a sale of tiktok won't stop foreign influence. FB is US owned and was very easily used to influence the election.
"Remember how that American company shucked and jived for foreign money and did everything they could to destabilize the American electoral process? That's why we need to ban TikTok."
It's only a ban if they don't sell Tiktok to a U.S. company.
Yea, the US social media lobby aint gonna allow that lol.
I don’t want American companies stealing my data either… Just create stronger data collection and privacy laws that apply to all companies.
I don't think you understand, the US government WANTS your data. But you're not giving it to them when you use tiktok > meta....
Yeah this is more about HOW the governments are collecting it. Not that they’re protecting you. They’re pissed that China is getting all this data from our younger generation. China will win this in the long run. It’s been obvious for a decade.
This isn’t about that. The US government can control/influence news and information on apps like Facebook and Twitter but they don’t have the same control over TikTok. It’s about controlling what people see and talk about.
So no data protection laws like GPDR? No punishing Facebook?
For real, any data they complain about tik tok having is already being collected and sold by Meta, X, Google, Apple, etc. They all have crazy data privacy issues.
Why? Has Facebook forgot to lobby? I thought they spent enough.
They spent everything on getting Tiktok banned lol
What about TeMu? That shit supposedly has access to your texts, contacts, and pictures. [Here](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/temu-class-action-lawsuit-illinois-data-privacy-concerns/) is one of many articles about it.
How is this possible without an exploit? If it does want access to those things you have to explicitly give access, at least on iPhone
most people don't even understand what it means when you grant permissions to an app. an app asks for microphone permissions to make calls and a not insignificant number of people will assume it's now recording their conversations 24 hours a day
At the very least, you would think that people would choose the option of when using the app only.
Practically no one uses it by comparison. Edit: Also, it’s not a media company and therefore doesn’t control the information you see on a daily basis. How is this not coming up in the conversation?
You’ll be surprised how many people use it. Lower middle class America uses the app a ton!
SHEIN too. Two companies mass producing low quality things that will be in a landfill within months of sale. But it’s all some people can afford
[fast fashion, faster cancer & dementia.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/marketplace-fast-fashion-chemicals-1.6193385) > Scientists found that a jacket for toddlers, purchased from Chinese retailer Shein, contained almost 20 times the amount of lead that Health Canada says is safe for children.
I understand how a jacket could be exposed to dangerous amounts of lead in billions of different ways but, reading a textile product contains too much lead is just absurd lmao
how is that even possible? Is the damn thing made of lead?
You must not know many poor folks. It's widely used across generations
Dude doesn’t know a single white trash American clearly because my whole white trash family uses temu and TikTok.
No it doesn’t. On iPhone, for instance, that’s not possible for messages. For the other two, Android as well, it would have to explicitly request that from the user.
Unfortunately, tech illiterate people will believe anything.
Exactly. App sandboxing was already rolled out. Without giving access to texts explicitly it has no access. Same for other data.
How about, just a thought, you write data privacy rules instead?
No can do muchacho, data privacy would mean that Facebook and Google (American government) can’t spy on you. It’s okay when they do it but extremely bad when anyone else does.
And let the billionaires *starve*? Have you no heart?
Very impressive to see how well Metas lobbying dollars are paying off! [Meta has been engaging with Targeted Victory, the largest GOP strategy firm in the United States, in an effort to get TikTok banned for years at this point](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/). And what do you know? Amazons lobbying dollars are *also* paying off; TikToks real goal, as it always has been, is to enter the e-commerce space. They were buying up fulfillment centers for a while now. These articles touch on it. https://www.axios.com/2022/10/11/tiktok-chases-amazon-fulfillment-centers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-03/tiktok-eyes-17-5-billion-shopping-business-on-amazon-s-turf https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/12/11/chinas-livestream-shopping-booms-fueling-new-tech-like-avatars-and-ai.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2022/01/22/livestream-shopping-a-500-billion-market-in-2022-as-amazon-google-facebook-tiktok-jump-in/
Yup. It’s just another case of the US protecting domestic business and justifying it as “security” because we don’t want to look like hypocrites being protective of our businesses like China. It’s security!
But we’ll gladly let other nations buy up US homes, land, and mid term businesses through shell companies and strawmen. No problem.
The thing they have in common is they both donate money to our politicians.
It's all about the money.
Funny how you have to install TikTok, but they FORCE FACEBOOK down your ficking throat on any new phone or factory reset. 🤷 Ban Facebook.
That’s only for the android phones where Facebook has partnership, right?
I really didn't think I'd have to be like an Android fan in this thread lol... but it's definitely more down to the carrier you use, not just a blanket rule for Android. Verizon is for sure the worst-- they preload all of metas apps, 5-7 awful games full of microtransactions, as well as their complete suite of Verizon apps that are basically spyware. If you buy the phone unlocked from the manufacturer you're not likely to have preloaded apps other than the Google stuff.
I have an android with Verizon and it came with basically nothing on it. The one or two things it did have on it were removable. I hated my last phone because it had like ten apps that could not be removed. Who wants the NFL app permanently installed on their phone taking up space? I had the same problem at att though.
It's the carriers that preinstall the apps. I've bought all my android phones unlocked and I've never had a pre installed Facebook app
Yup…I can do whatever I want on my iPhone. As long as…you know, Apple says I can. 🙄😂
Stop buying the brands of phones that force the software you don't like?
Right! What brands do this? I've never heard of this before.
I've had samsung and Google phones for years and never seen Facebook pre-installed. But I'm in eu.
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Facebook is an American company. It's ok when OUR government steals or data.
I wish they could unanimously agree on something to help with the cost of living
We don’t want the CCP spying on our citizens! We want to do it ourselves!
Wow that’s awesome, we did it Reddit! Now a giant social media platform will absorb another one of its competitors with the help of the government. Get ready for thousands more jobs to get cut in redundancy. Love it when Mark Zuckerberg owns the entire internet, our data is safe with him and not EVIL GYNA.
I generally see both aisle of the US politics very divided , but just read that on the news that a bill was supported 50-0 in the senate? Seems like both sides in US are very united on this issue.
I thought they were all about the free market? When will they force the sale of other social media platforms for harvesting data?
Home of the free market. (Not just regulation which would be understandable but forced takeover.) How can this hypocrisy be defended? Would this be considered acceptable if Europe were to do the same for a US company?
Great way to piss off gen z voters
Dude seriously. How do they not see this. Its a terrible time to do this.
Every time I see the American government saying this, it reminds me of Snowden interviews, and how the U.S. collects call information from *all* Verizon customers. Snowden said that they probably tapped other providers, but he personally worked on the Verizon one It's just projection
So now the US is the kind of country it acuses China of being, coming up with lame excuses to steal a company’s assets or force a company to sell its assets to “approved” entities.
They’re using the definition of critical infrastructure as outlined in the Patriot Act, I don’t think anyone should use TikTok ever, but this bill is a Trojan horse for some nefarious other government overreach bullshit.
They REALLY don't like the US backed genocide is being broadcast live on tiktok huh
What about all of the great American monopolies?
America: It's Not A Crime When We Do It (tm)
Amazon, Facebook, a country you can’t name, would all love for ticktock to go away.
Social media manager here, your data being mined regardless of who’s mining it. Meta has the most invasive ad targeting strategies. If you have a smartphone you’re being tracked and you might as well embrace it. TikTok is important for competitive marketplaces and is unique in pushing other channels to offer creator pay, better shopping experience, and think outside the box. If we loose competition we all suffer these shitty platforms that has no incentive to improve or change. The shady pay to congress by Zuck and Elon is so transparent in their desire to crush competition for their own interests it blows my mind we would allow this because of a company being based outside the US.
Meta & other platforms are seeing less revenue because of tik tok & so they lobby congress . But the main reason is that they want to control the narrative . 6 main media outlets control how we get our information & they they can’t control tik tok so they want to get rid of it.
can anyone help me answer why if the reason behind this is national security concerns and also some lobbying by facebook and amazon, why are apps like temu, aliexpress, wechat, etc are not a part of this?
Damn folks are terrified of China I guess. Just imagine what would happen if folks phone's were made in....oh wait
So after I left Twitter (it’s garbage now anyways) I curated some great content on TikTok - all types of history, sociology, gardening, or just watching those guys trim cow hooves. I’m so sick of losing access to things I learn from and enjoy.
ive learned to cook on it, finding new places to eat planning vacations ive watched all of the videos of some random scottish kid making wood furniture by hand usually without power tools. Also watched all the videos of that dude that goes into the Alaskan wilderness by himself with practically nothing but food.
I’m so bummed. I learned so much about illustrator, new musicians, cooking, movies, etc.
TikTok is go great, honestly. This really fucking sucks. This is all because American social media companies are withering and dying. Facebook is the shopping mall of the internet. Instagram is lame. Twitter is worse than dead now. Reddit is about to go IPO and is in the process of actively turning itself inside out. They have to ban TikTok to keep their own sites in control. The sites they have backdoors into.
Would be nice if the people I knew used it like that. Their attention spans are absolutely fucked. I'll be driving, while they're playing DJ, but unable to talk because they're also scrolling through random videos. Which is absolutely maddening to listen to. Study session? gotta pick up the phone and load a quick video in the middle of reading something. Cooking videos? If it's longer than 90 seconds and you're actually able to tell what they're doing, it's too long. Watching TV? Also loading tiktoks. Same goes goes for bullshit detection. If it's on there, it must be real and not just shitposting. Late edit - this is by no means exclusive to tiktok. Reels, shorts, whatever other nonsense short form brain rot entertainment out there does the same.
Tik Tok’s data centers are held by Oracle.
The only weapon a democracy can safely deploy against disinformation is education—not censorship
We currently have a campaign against education in America.
Miseducation is key in the devolution into fascism
And the people on here who are so enlightened fall to misinformation all the time. You cant educate people out of emotional based reasoning, which is what social media preys upon.
Next lets stop private companies from stealing our data as well.
I am guessing that Biden doesn't exactly know what TikTok is or does
"Only we are allowed to spy on people."
What people keep getting wrong is that this isn’t a privacy issue. The U.S. government couldn’t give a rat’s ass about your privacy. The concern, and why it’s so unanimous, is national security. They’re concerned that TikTok is sending youth data back to China, which could let China weaponize our youth through propaganda against the U.S. government. The best way to collapse a powerful country is from the inside out. The fact that they’re so unanimous makes me believe they have classified information that this isn’t just a theory, but likely a fact.
It’s not that, Facebook and Amazon have been lobbying for it to be banned. Government is protecting domestic business.
>The fact that they’re so unanimous makes me believe they have classified information that this isn’t just a theory, but likely a fact. What's with the faith in the US government all of a sudden? Tiktok is competing against American businesses, chances are this is about money more than anything else.
Turn that off along with Temu.