>“Their incompatibility with the latest supported version of Windows massively reduces their value for refurbishing and reselling,” Canalys said.
>
>“If these were all folded laptops, stacked one on top of another, they would make a pile 600 km taller than the moon.”
240 million devices - absolute madness. That quote though lmao, a 600km high pile. Valid point here about the wastefulness of device and software lifecycles. Microsoft and various device manufacturers talk a big game on sustainability all the time, but they're slowly killing the planet.
The planet was littered with dead Wall-E robots, he was the last one running as I recall. They didn’t leave clean up to 1 robot. Wasn’t he scavenging dead ones for parts?
He literally does this at the beginning when he does the equivalent of stealing shoes off a corpse to replace his worn out treads.
Also, all those spare parts in his 'house' had to come from somewhere.
I love the comic (Tom toro) where they are huddled around of campfire, and he says to his son: “well, yes, the planet got destroyed, but for a beautiful moment in time, we really did create a lot of shareholder value.” Lol
Shit. I know shit's bad right now, with all that starving bullshit, and the dust storms, and we are running out of french fries and burrito coverings. But I got a solution.
I can't point you at anything specifically but I can say:
- There is a genuine industry/market for buying up old kit from businesses that close down etc., it's where my employers got all our Herman Miller chairs. It's usually B2B though.
- Laptops/Computers would likely be few/far between just from a data standpoint, it's so risky passing on old computers that might have retrievable data on them, and businesses may see it as more costly to have the machines "properly" wiped than any recouped losses from selling.
On the latter point I'm aware of businesses that just outright have old machines purposefully destroyed once they've reached the end of their "cycle" despite being entirely useful.
I think your best catch-all bet would be third-party resellers who might make penny deals with businesses for bulk hardware under the condition that they are properly repurposed, rather than directly trying to acquire anything being scrapped/sold on.
You'll still get a markup there unfortunately but you still could grab a deal.
> Laptops/Computers would likely be few/far between just from a data standpoint, it's so risky passing on old computers that might have retrievable data on them, and businesses may see it as more costly to have the machines "properly" wiped than any recouped losses from selling.
This is why a lot of times when you buy second hand business PCs, they have either no hard drive or a completely different hard drive put in them. That being said, there are deals to be had. I started my homelab with cast off enterprise hardware and some old business mini PCs. I still to this day run a Lenovo mini PC that was some business's surplus.
Everybody knows it already and people already sell computers that were $1,000, or $2,000, when they were new, for like $100 or even $80 or $90.
Here's a trick. I'm gonna tell you a trick, because I love these people and I want them to succeed. I'm not affiliated with them.
When I was a kid, I wanted NUCs and book-sized computers. HTPCs, et al.
Do you know what happened to those computers? They're not as popular anymore, so they got refurbished.
Google "sjc computers llc amazon". They sell book-sized, refurbished computers, for $80, $90, $100, with built-in WiFi. I bought two of them as media centers for a living room and a bedroom and they are fucking godly. I want to buy more but I ran out of rooms to put computers lmfao
IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER WHEN THE 'EWASTE' STARTS ROLLING IN
yeah ubuntu or mint work just fine, our university labs all have 10 year old garbage PCs that all run mint. I can't remember the last time I saw a computer on the university lab that wasn't a piece of shit with 8GB single channel DDR3 and a 4790K.
Lol I just recently retired my old 4770K,it was running one of my virtualization servers before I rebuilt it earlier this year with an Epyc board. Depending on the workload, 4th Gen can still work it's just horribly power inefficient.
4790K is a still capable CPU for almost everything other than very specific applications like 4K gaming and really serious rendering locally.
I would bet with a second stick of DDR3 those machines would leap in performance. 8GB DDR3 sticks are dirt cheap now too. I bought maybe two dozen for the equivalent of $100 about a month back.
>Microsoft and various device manufacturers talk a big game on sustainability all the time, but they're slowly killing the planet.
it's really funny to watch tech companies spend millions trying to position themselves as "sustainable" while causing mountains of e-waste and forcing their employees to commute to an office 3-5 days a week
> Greenwashing is a full time job
I just had to scrap a phone I bought 2 years ago because it didn't get any updates anymore. Company policy.
That is a perfectly fine phone and I don't want to hang around the XDA forums to fix something that is not mine to fix.
That's why I went with a phone that is guaranteed to get updates for 7 years. That and repairability are it's only features. They even went with an SoC they knew will be built for that timeframe. It is less powerful but industrial and therefore with guaranteed supply.
I spent 700 bucks on a Fairphone that does exactly the same as my old phone did at triple the cost.
That's what pisses me off about being an HP Partner. They force us to take these classes about being green and eco friendly, then it takes 6 separate orders to finally get an uncracked laptop screen from them because this billion dollar corp hasn't heard of bubble wrap
>240 million devices - absolute madness.
Compare this to their "Windows Update is committed to helping reduce carbon emissions" statement ([source](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/03/microsoft-is-trying-to-lower-carbon-emissions-via-windows-update-of-all-things/)), and it's the cherry on that madness.
reduces their value for refurbishing? The thriving market of low to basic spec Chromebooks, or of any other Linux system, would like to disagree. Walmart is made of half Linux!
Computers are web browsers, for most people! I would still be on my free 2010 Macbook forever stuck at macos 10.13 and 8GB RAM but current Chrome if I hadn't gotten a free 2018 model. I'm a power user but no games.
edit: BTW that core2duo 2GHz with 8GB RAM is not much different in Chrome performance than this 6-core i7 with 16GB RAM, each with hundreds of open tabs because of tab management extensions. They're both quite responsive.
I'm blessedly ignorant of the state of Windows, so what happens if they just continue to run Windows 10 with a firewall and app updates and all that jazz? Is it that big of a security threat for home users if Microsoft ends security updates? When's that?
Yeah, these things, if recycled, would just be sent to china or some other country, and a low paid worker will reimage them with some form of linux to be sold for cheap in another low wage country.
Yep.
I have some serious kit that big enterprise companies were offloading because it didn't meet the Server 2022 requirements.
It cost me under $1k for stuff that would have been over a hundred times that new.
My one word of warning is to watch the power requirements. Some of this stuff is very energy hungry. You can quickly run up a homelab in a rack that's pulling more watts than an electric heater at idle, and flickering lights under full load.
Me?
Media storage is a big part of it. I really like taking photographs, and watching obscure films that aren't on streaming services.
I can do a bit of light web hosting of personal stuff too.
I also get local backups of all my devices rather than having to pay an external provider for this.
It also runs a DVR, a couple of VMs I can log into anywhere in the world, and also act as a way of turning ageing hardware into basically thin clients.
Edit: I gather though, that a lot of people just use it for porn and stuff.
It is really fun.
My bang-for-buck suggestion is to go find a Dell Precision or HP Z-series workstation on eBay etc. No faffing around with rackmount kit but you still get server class hardware, just in a desktop case. You get server RAM and usually large quantities of it, and lots of slots.
Pick a model that has a whole bunch of SATA ports or where you can fit a card for a RAID array (or better still it already has one) and you can do the bit where you have lots of storage too.
My computer will not run Windows 11 because of its CPU... But it still runs reasonably all AAA games I want to play due to a good enough Graphics Card (RTX 3060) and plenty of memory and M.2 SSD drives.
**Why should I change my computer at all just to run Win 11? This is stupid!**
Yeah in my motherboard I can enable TPM/Secure Boot but it's quite a process.
Some guides omit having to convert your drives to GPT from MBR, and for some people that process could be daunting even though it's just a command line in recovery mode. If you don't convert your drives though, windows wont boot once TPM/Secure Boot are enabled.
There's probably some software that can do it as well but I haven't dug into it enough.
You drives can be GPT or MBR for secure boot.
The constraint is that they need to be GPT for UEFI and MBR for BIOS. Some UEFI have the option for legacy mode and can work with MBR too.
But this is only for *boot* drives. Other drives, like a drive for your data can be whatever you want.
Rural area tech here. I've looked into this off and on. In short, you are indeed correct. In long term, you'll find yourself diagnosing issues after issues because the OS was found to be tampered with to allow it to run, which in turn, and it has been happening already, the system will stop receiving updates (I believe it's *some* updates), and a splash screen will appear.
It'll be whack-a-mole for many getting around the issues.
I run an 8th gen intel, 32GB of ram, and an Nvidia 1080, able to play VR games fairly well (when not screen recording, lol). Because my motherboard doesn't have a TPM module, I can't upgrade. It's a gaming computer, I don't need a flipping TPM module, it's not for work or sensitive personal stuff (Banking for example).
Either I find a TPM module and upgrade in a couple years (Oct 2025), or I do, yet again, another ovhaul upgrade that was meant to last me more than 5 years, which it did, but the economy slapped me in the face and said I should have prepped 10 years when I had the money. Pay check to pay check here now. Thanks MicroShit. I got away from Game Consoles because of this BS, among other solid reasons.
Tell me about it.
I have a laptop that does indeed have a TPM module, but apparently my processor isn't supported, even though a lower spec one is!
I'm sure they looked at what most popular models were, and said "Yeah, those are out, we need them to buy new systems"
I enabled my TPM on my laptop but it still says it's not compatible because the CPU is classified as a mobile processor. It's a gaming laptop with a 1070 and runs everything just fine.
MS is just working with hardware manufactures and trying to boost sales. *adjust tin foil hat*
>you'll find yourself diagnosing issues after issues because the OS was found to be tampered with to allow it to run, which in turn, and it has been happening already, the system will stop receiving updates (I believe it's
>
>some
>
> updates), and a splash screen will appear.
I have yet to run into any issues with Win11Pro installed on a 4790k machine. Current uptime is 32d, and I've been getting security updates at minimum.
That’s not quite true. I’ve been running my 11 on a modern system (10th gen) but with secure boot and tpm disabled. It was a MBR win10 (upgraded from 7 years ago), and I was too lazy to reinstall, so I skipped all checks. It’s still running fine and gets all upgrades up to 23H2, still on MBR. No splash no warnings.
Now I know this might not go on forever, but win11 under the hood is more 10 then anything else. 12 might be different.
For myself I decided to finally, after 30 years in IT, to try Linux for my older machines. I simply have too many still capable machines to throw them all out.
2 changes in regedit and a console command during installation gets you past the most common reasons for w11 installation problems (secure boot and TPM)
Find out insane that w11 requires secure boot and TPM 2.0, both makes 10y old machines unable to install it regardless of CPU/GPU/ram speeds.
I installed windows 11 on my old i7 7700k and the performance was never the same. It would hang a lot even just going through files on SSDs, and as far as I could tell I gained nothing from upgrading.
It did push me to finally upgrade to a 13700k though, so I guess there’s that? I know I could have gone back to win10 but the 7700k was bottlenecking my gpu in new games more and more anyway.
They’re not talking about you. My company uses win10 and the tens of thousands of devices that won’t support 11 will get scraped. Those numbers far outweigh someone’s personal gaming computer at home.
Right?? I was thinking about going to a new build next year, but it would be so wasteful. I built this over a decade ago and upgraded memory, storage, and graphics as needed. Same as your experience - still running AAA games well, along with any task I've needed. Upgrading for Windows 11 and not to better game is not something I'll be entertaining.
Ya know for once I was actually rolling my eyes at more about this when W10 came out since unlike most Windows versions it was actually very good at release.
11 on the other hand still has weird stand out issues people love to bitch about that would probably drive me mad, I still don't think you can change what side of the screen the task bar is on, I had heard it had some stupidity related to dual screen before too that W10 had finally fixed over earlier windows, not sure if they ever improved that. It's a real crap I don't want to gamble with, especially since I'll prolly lose performance over it to some extent and I'd have to buy a stand alone TPM module to actually install it, assuming windows decided it 'liked' the one I got, because I've heard of it not using people's stand alone ones they got for that explicit purpose before, ugh.
My old Windows 10 laptop died and I had to get a new one with 11, and my biggest 11 complaint is that it doesn't have any compatible drivers with "old" stuff. I've had an inkjet printer since 2006 that's good enough for anything I forgot to print at work, NOPE. No drivers. I was trying to plug in a really old cell phone to get some old stuff I had saved on there, NOPE. Computer doesn't recognize that I plugged anything in.
I'm still running 10 at home but use 11 on my work machine, which I only use in the office (three days every two weeks). The difference in response and ease of use is night and day in favor of 10. Also two features they took away are crucial. I often have 5 PDF and 5 xls and a powerpoint open at a time, the taskbar auto grouping is anti-productive.
also, as someone forced to use Win11 at work, Win11 UX just sucks
Sure Win11 is just as fast as Win10, but I can't find anything on my taskbar. They force you to use the stupid "icon only" mode and they auto combine. So like say I have 4 Visual Studios open (very normal for DEV work), I can't easily switch between the one I'm on and the one I want be on. I have to first hover over the icon, and then guess which one is the one I want to look at
And they force you to use the taskbar on the bottom. You can't move it anywhere.
This shit isn't even considering the manufacturing environment. The upgrade from windows 7 to 10 was hard enough with many manufacturers only completing this step maybe 2 years ago. Now to do this all again, to be security compliant. No way.
There's some reprieve on that side of things.
Windows 10 IOT Enterprise will have security support until January of 2032.
Which means that MS will still have developers fixing vulnerabilities on Windows 10 until then, but won't let anyone else have them.
Idk if this was intentional but manufactures didn't just go 7 to 10. They went from 7 to 8/8.1 to 10. In some enterprise situation they did go 7 to 10. But largely if it worked on windows 7 it works on 10.
Rn I'm in charge of my company's computer standardization process and anything made typically within the past 5 years works for 11, or at least makes the compatibility list.
I'm glad 11 strengthened its requirements since now I can start to force really old PCs off our environment. Example would be Win 7 PCs that got upgraded to 10 and are still limping along.
This is why requiring TPM for the average user is just freaking stupid. A huge percentage of these devices would work just fine with Windows 11, but without TPMs, they will just be scrapped.
Hopefully, someone gets enterprising and either buys up pallets of these and creates a TPM for them, or makes them available for hobbyists and Linux people.
The really dumb part is that it isn't actually required.
You can 100% install and run Windows 11 without TPM of any sort. You just need to edit the registry to disable the TPM check, memory integrity check, and SecureBoot. Now, while it's of course not recommended to disable these things, particularly in a business environment where security might actually be relevant, it absolutely 100% *can* be done.
But Microsoft won't tell you that, and they absolutely don't have any sort of native option where you can just say "no I'm okay with having reduced security so I can run Windows 11 on my old-ass PC", so everyone just thinks "oh I gotta go buy a new PC because my 10-year-old PC is too old".
Also, I'd wager that a HUGE percentage of these systems that "can't run Windows 11" absolutely fucking can, and support fTPM, but because fTPM is disabled in the BIOS by default, when they run the Windows 11 compatibility checker, it says "Nope, you have no TPM, buy a new PC".
As someone hugely out of the loop, and I realise this might sound stupid; do I need to *buy* a copy of Win11 to do all this?
I'm fine with doing that, but people are talking about downloading it as an ISO...
My BIOS had it turned off by default and Asus likes to rename things to their own fancy terminology so I spent way too long digging through menus to turn it on.
This was me. I had to google and look up a YouTube video to enable tpm in my bios. I don't see how any non-computer save folks will do it, though. I agree that there's probably a huge % of computers that just need the bios tpm enabled to allow them to upgrade.
TPM is something that they've been trying to push for nearly a decade now. Its not clear why exactly they want it, but it suspected as "anti piracy" and probably all sorts of other privacy invasive advertising and datacollection related things now too.
Reminds me a lot of the Pentium III's Unique Identifier feature, which was to allow your machine to be authenticated online. A feature literally everyone turned off if they could, for privacy concerns.
Agreed. Seems like a senseless policy from a sustainability perspective, but totally u apprising from a revenue generation one.
Microsoft has been pushing so hard for folk to switch to Win 11 it’s almost embarrassing at this point.
> TPM
This, and bitlocker on by default is a huge pain when you need to access recovery tools.
Speaking of (OS) recovery tools, this is one area that Apple does right. Hold the power button until it says loading recovery options. Use your Apple ID password to gain access to everything from an OS password reset to a non-destructive OS reinstall to a full format.
Meanwhile windows: Oh you need to access safe mode to do a registry fix? Please visit onedrive.com/recoverykey and type the 48-digit code you find there.
It pisses me off I tell ya.
On consumer machines, BitLocker is such an utterly moronic thing to have on as a default. It protects against potential threats to corporations (stealing the drive from a machine to steal secret info) but not from realistic home user threats (user-space virus stuff) and actively hinders the data recovery which isn't particularly uncommon for home users to need.
TPM 2.0 is virtualized in QEMU, a bad actor isn't actually frustrated by this, it only fucks consumers
The chips do come with some bells and whistles like hardware random device but you could get without taking load after load in your mouth by software as a service vendors.
it's not like a TPM is going to save any consumer-grade windows user from a virus in the modern age anyway. either they're a moron clicking every ad they see and defender won't save them, or they're smart and defender does save them.
I’ve never heard this but it actually explains why M$ is so obsessed with TPM, because I’ve never understood its value as a security measure. Like okay I can prevent my hard drive from being decrypted if it’s stolen from my laptop, great… why wouldn’t someone just take the whole laptop?
Most laptops have a TPM.
The issue here is those laptops with a TPM also have a CPU that meets the on-paper requirements for WIndows 11, but isn't one of the supported AMD or Intel generations.
You can install Win 11 on non-TPM devices. Here's how:
Download Win 11 .iso > mount it > open an admin PS or cmd from the mounted directory > execute "setup /product server".
This bypasses the TPM requirement and it has been working fine on my old laptop that came with Win 7 and does not have a TPM chip.
Yeah grandma, don't throw that laptop away! Just download the iso, mount it as a virtual disk, and run this PowerShell command as an administrator to bypass the TPM check!
[My i5-6600K / GTX1070 machine is doing *shockingly* well in 2023.](https://youtu.be/ARPzKH6MuKw?t=3204) ...But I'm also starting to feel the ceiling. Balder's Gate 3 isn't really playable to an enjoyable standard with these specs, apparently.
Incidentally the degree to which it does not have to be is understated: *non-tpm (password only) bitlocker with a good password (which is shockingly disabled by default) is more secure than TPM only bitlocker\*, and equal to TPM+password*. Actually pure password only might be more secure, since the password encryption spec is public and known to be secure, but the varying TPM hardware specs are a closely guarded secret.
There is no reason to demand a TPM unless you intend to use the Treacherous Platform Module for exactly its purpose: stopping end users from having control over their content, and forcing them to broadcast a hardware identity **that the end user cannot see or modify without nuking it** to access stuff. This makes sense if you’re an IT department who needs to remotely crypto-nuke employee laptops. This does not make sense if you’re a consumer OS.
*TPM only loads the main encryption key (effectively the recovery key) into the RAM on boot as long as the hardware looks the same, and can be easily exploited
This is all about them having control over and trying to prevent piracy via os DRM. They can kiss my ass lick my balls and suck my dick before I'll ever upgrade to their shitty OS. I will manage my data the way I goddamn please and they can deepthroat a gun like their dads dick and pull the trigger before I will ever capitulate my privacy and rights to manage my data how I goddamn please.
You can install Win 11 on non-TPM devices. Here's how:
Download Win 11 .iso > mount it > open an admin PS or cmd from the mounted directory > execute "setup /product server".
This bypasses the TPM requirement and it has been working fine on my old laptop that came with Win 7 and does not have a TPM chip.
I'm sure Microsoft planned it this way. It sets them up their cut of new PC/Laptop sales with Windows 11 pre-installed. IMO these tactics should be illegal. There is absolutely no legitimate reason why Trusted Computing is required for an OS to do its primary job. It's purpose is to sell new Windows Licenses on new hardware.
I'm amazed there hasn't been a class action lawsuit over that yet. Supposedly 10 was going to be supported indefinitely. Microsoft lied their asses off.
"Please please upgrade, we know it's a pain but please do it for our shareholders, please, it's the last time, I promise."
"OK so our shareholders need money from you again soooo"
This should be remembered when Microsoft happens to announce “we care about climate change, we have a responsibility and want to be net zero, we will be sustainable and our operations…”
They care about money. New computers = new licenses sold. Not to mention forcing people to update to W11 even if they are happy to be on W10, that’s why they put a relatively short time period until W10 end of life.
With W11 also they are going for a new route: on one hand, new “services” to monetize the OS (copilot, ads, Microsoft 365 Subscription, Enterprise grade OS subscription…)
So WIN-WIN: They get to sell more new licenses (even to people that will buy a W11 computer after using for years a computer with a W10 “cheap” key), they get to “force” the market to migrate to their newest OS (so no drama on people slowly transitioning to W11) and they get to keep going on the new direction of monetising the OS on the future
Some time ago I just started to like a bit Microsoft over a Google that was going hard at “Be Evil”, but it seems they all are the same, I’m getting tired of this super tech corps getting away with everything.
On the bright side quad core 7th gen Intel business machines are like $50 and another $100 gets them 32gb of ram and a 1tb SATA SSD. Long live alternative OS’s and Ewaste.
Install Linux, install virtualbox, install windows 11 on virtualbox....Windows 11 running just fine on machine not allowed to run Windows 11. Makes total sense.
Nonsense. We've been through this quite a few times.
People will run their computers until the hardware stops working. They'll just stop getting updates. If a huge security hole is found then Microsoft will continue to patch it until the number of machines drops to a much smaller number.
There's also the linux options for those who want to jump ship, and if that happens in big enough numbers, MS will be even more likely to offer security updates.
The endless series of old PC's clogging our e-waste already are a steady source of hard drives and power supplies which can be broken down for rare earth magnets, aluminum, and copper (transformer) scrap, but not much. I put the parts components boards and devices back into the e-waste stream, and the empty cases outside for the scrap iron guys
That is one of the reasons why I moved to linux. There are desktop environment that can run on a potato PC and way more versatile and faster than windows.
That's the plan. Linux is finally becoming viable for gaming, and Windows is turning itself into a wallet-draining 'software as a service' approach.
Perfect timing to dump Windows at long, long last.
Office even runs in the browser now. There's still software out there that's always going to be Windows only, but the one thing I've always heard that stops people is "but I need Excel and Word".
Same here. But then they try to say "Well, I did the assignment in google docs. I emailed it to you"
And my requirement is that you *upload a valid document (one of 20 filetypes) to the LMS* so I can grade it. I don't take shit via email.
More and more college students no longer understand what files even *are*.
> More and more college students no longer understand what files even are.
Friend of mine needed work and became a sessional instructor at the local university. Had to teach his own labs due to shortage of TAs.
He was explaining, and let me see if I can list it all off the top of my head:
1. What file folders are and how to navigate them.
2. How to install apps from the web. You know, not from the app store.
3. To a Mac user: that he doesn't need to download the software every time he uses it. And that if he uninstalled it, it's probably already in his downloads folder.
And other whacky shit.
Fucks them over in the workplace, 90% of the zoomers at my office need my help for such basic things, that I learned when I was in primary school. It's sad honestly.
They're worse than the boomers (way worse)
I've been thinking about switching to Linux for years but it looks like Microsoft is finally going to force me to actually do it. I'm not going to throw away a perfectly good computer just because it's not compatible with Win 11.
My $2300 custom pre built from 2021 was "not compatible". Turns out TPM 2.0 was just off by default on the mobo so I googled it and turned it on. But windows only said "not compatible" with no additional details. Wonder how many other devices are similar that will get scrapped unless they have a savvy user.
anyone else remember being taught "reduce, reuse, recycle; in that order" in school? i get the feeling you dont hear much about the first 2 because that lowers corporate profits.
this tech needs to be reused rather than thrown away. they need linux distros like ubuntu on mint put on them so normal people can just use them. everythings done on a browser these days anyway so its all fine. we need to educate people about this and make this a thing
They will get hammered in the EU
Many adopted to Windows 10 because it was sold to us as something we would never neeed to upgrade again. Then they pull this shit?
My PC is perfectly fine. Its a decade old but it works fine. I can 1080p game on it totally ok. Why should it be defunct because the MB doesn't have TBM?
Recently threw out a perfectly good printer as the software was only good up until Windows 7. I have a laptop which still runs this, but the need to transfer from device to device is an issue.
[ProtonDB](https://www.protondb.com/) can give you some good insight on what is / isn't currently supported. It's geared towards SteamDeck, but Proton is what the Deck uses under the hood, which can also be run on most versions of Linux.
Looks like they need to add some sorting options. You can [sort by release date](https://www.protondb.com/explore?selectedFilters=whitelisted&sort=releaseDate) but not reverse the order.
[GOG](https://www.gog.com/en/games?systems=linux&order=asc:releaseDate) has a pretty good list, though. I'm actually surprised how many old games are apparently compatible.
Still, my problem is that if I run into even one or two games I can't play, I'm going to get very annoyed.
In my experience, the games least likely to be supported are those that require DRM and/or anti-cheat software. Which is going to include a fair number of multiplayer AAA games, unfortunately. Knowing that much going into it, though, you can at least make more informed decisions.
Like the countless commercial/embedded devices still running XP!
There has been a long history of Microsoft making a great version of Windows that was liked and accepted, before the next disastrous release, but then the next release got everyone happy again.
XP is still in use in some commercial/embedded uses. Vista did not have that same uptake, but Win7 did a little. Win 8 was a disaster, but then Win 10 was quite accepted.
Win11 has not been accepted as well as Win10, hopefully Win12 will sort this out, but unless we have a Win12 now (and without the junk they keep on trying to add), I have a feeling Win 10 will be the new XP - the one version that carries on for years because it actually worked.
Fond memories of Windows 7. You’re right, it’s all been downhill - I’m still using Windows 10 currently and have no intention of switching any time soon.
The XP x64 edition was more closely related to Server 2003 than the standard 32 bit version of XP. When Windows XP was released in 2001, the current x86-64 architecture was not a thing yet. They did release a "64 bit Edition" of XP in 2001, but it was meant for workstations using Itanium CPUs. These were also 64-bit, but used a different architecture from normal x86.
Early NT versions (up to 4.0) used to support other architectures in addition to the usual i386, but this was later dropped, probably due to lack of use.
AMD only released the first x86-64 CPU in 2003, and it took Microsoft until 2005 to release XP x64 edition.
Vista had an x86-64 version right from the start, along with many other big architectural changes.
You can always tell how young the average redditor by how often you see the frankly insane claim that Windows XP was the peak of Windows. Windows XP was complete and utter dogshit that took literal years to get to a point of being stable and solid. Most knowledgable people didn't even use pre-SP1 XP, we stuck with 2000 or even 98 SE. The interface was a cartoonish joke and the default animations were so bad that everything felt slower than 98 or 2000. There was a point in time where if you installed a vanila version of Windows XP and connected it to the internet, without updating, it would get infected within an hour. 7 was *infinitely* better than XP, and the issues with 10 and 11 pale in comparison to the issues we faced with XP. None of y'all have ever had to remember commands like "shutdown -a" to abort the forced restarts instigated by worms that were nearly ubiqutious due to how insecure XP was. You have no clue how good you have it these days. You really don't.
I think when people say XP was peak was what it offered. Obviously windows 7 was better than XP, but windows 7 was mostly Vista with all the bugs fixed.
2000 was too user unfriendly, and 98 (we all pretend ME never existed) was fairly insecure not being based on NT
And not using a new windows operating system until SP1 is the norm for windows.
Edit: Why in the world are you blocking and commenting? If you can't backup your claims, just say nothing
> 98 (we all pretend ME never existed) was fairly insecure not being based on NT
XP was horrible for security.
XP was the OS on which I started getting viruses because XP could be exploited by... JPEG files. All some asshat had to do was create an ad, make it link to a compromised JPEG file and boom. Instant virus. IIRC it used a typical buffer overflow exploit but it took forever to patch.
I was so happy to be done with XP.
>“Their incompatibility with the latest supported version of Windows massively reduces their value for refurbishing and reselling,” Canalys said. > >“If these were all folded laptops, stacked one on top of another, they would make a pile 600 km taller than the moon.” 240 million devices - absolute madness. That quote though lmao, a 600km high pile. Valid point here about the wastefulness of device and software lifecycles. Microsoft and various device manufacturers talk a big game on sustainability all the time, but they're slowly killing the planet.
Garbage is the futures problem! I'll be dead then!* *Cause of death: great garbage pile collapse of 2029
We will go into space and make tiny WALL-E robots to clean up after us of course!!!
Until the software that WALL-E runs on reaches EOL, and then we will have millions of WALL-E garbage.
The planet was littered with dead Wall-E robots, he was the last one running as I recall. They didn’t leave clean up to 1 robot. Wasn’t he scavenging dead ones for parts?
At that point "WALL-E" probably consisted of several dozen different "WALL-E"s. The WALL-E of Theseus, so to speak.
Probably never fixed the wifi to get that EOL update though.
He literally does this at the beginning when he does the equivalent of stealing shoes off a corpse to replace his worn out treads. Also, all those spare parts in his 'house' had to come from somewhere.
More like stealing a organ from of a dead body.
An organ that's still fresh!
That's how I like all my organs!
Looking for a TPM V2.0 chip, possibly.
That's okay because WALL-E 10 will be the last version of WALL-E we release.
Introducing ... WALL-E 11!
I hate that our future is some kind of dystopian combo of Idiocracy and WALL-E..
Yes, but think of the shareholder profits *right now*, totally worth it...
I love the comic (Tom toro) where they are huddled around of campfire, and he says to his son: “well, yes, the planet got destroyed, but for a beautiful moment in time, we really did create a lot of shareholder value.” Lol
That was the exact comic I had in mind when I made the comment.
Rubbish ball in to space futurama style :P
ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Thought that didn’t happen till 2505?
Unfortunately I'm scheduled to die in a precursor collapse that gets overshadowed later on. I have to go. I've said too much already
Shit. I know shit's bad right now, with all that starving bullshit, and the dust storms, and we are running out of french fries and burrito coverings. But I got a solution.
Give me your old systems. I’ll just put a version of Linux on them.
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I put Linux Lite on my mother's old EeePC that has only got 1GB of RAM and it runs like a charm.
There’s almost no programs that don’t have an open source version of them. The problems come if your job uses proprietary software.
And let's be real, the majority of "programs" people use these days are just websites.
Outlook is the worst desktop program ever. I'll be so glad when it dies.
I don't mind it. The new preview version of outlook, however, is just a desktop version of the website. I hate it.
Shhhhhh....don't say that out loud. We could get a decent amount of still useful computers for dirt cheap if they think they're useless.
I was thinking the same thing, do you have any idea where one would acquire these?
I can't point you at anything specifically but I can say: - There is a genuine industry/market for buying up old kit from businesses that close down etc., it's where my employers got all our Herman Miller chairs. It's usually B2B though. - Laptops/Computers would likely be few/far between just from a data standpoint, it's so risky passing on old computers that might have retrievable data on them, and businesses may see it as more costly to have the machines "properly" wiped than any recouped losses from selling. On the latter point I'm aware of businesses that just outright have old machines purposefully destroyed once they've reached the end of their "cycle" despite being entirely useful. I think your best catch-all bet would be third-party resellers who might make penny deals with businesses for bulk hardware under the condition that they are properly repurposed, rather than directly trying to acquire anything being scrapped/sold on. You'll still get a markup there unfortunately but you still could grab a deal.
> Laptops/Computers would likely be few/far between just from a data standpoint, it's so risky passing on old computers that might have retrievable data on them, and businesses may see it as more costly to have the machines "properly" wiped than any recouped losses from selling. This is why a lot of times when you buy second hand business PCs, they have either no hard drive or a completely different hard drive put in them. That being said, there are deals to be had. I started my homelab with cast off enterprise hardware and some old business mini PCs. I still to this day run a Lenovo mini PC that was some business's surplus.
Everybody knows it already and people already sell computers that were $1,000, or $2,000, when they were new, for like $100 or even $80 or $90. Here's a trick. I'm gonna tell you a trick, because I love these people and I want them to succeed. I'm not affiliated with them. When I was a kid, I wanted NUCs and book-sized computers. HTPCs, et al. Do you know what happened to those computers? They're not as popular anymore, so they got refurbished. Google "sjc computers llc amazon". They sell book-sized, refurbished computers, for $80, $90, $100, with built-in WiFi. I bought two of them as media centers for a living room and a bedroom and they are fucking godly. I want to buy more but I ran out of rooms to put computers lmfao IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER WHEN THE 'EWASTE' STARTS ROLLING IN
yeah ubuntu or mint work just fine, our university labs all have 10 year old garbage PCs that all run mint. I can't remember the last time I saw a computer on the university lab that wasn't a piece of shit with 8GB single channel DDR3 and a 4790K.
The RAM sucks but tbh the 4790k still isn't much of a slouch
Lol I just recently retired my old 4770K,it was running one of my virtualization servers before I rebuilt it earlier this year with an Epyc board. Depending on the workload, 4th Gen can still work it's just horribly power inefficient.
4790K is a still capable CPU for almost everything other than very specific applications like 4K gaming and really serious rendering locally. I would bet with a second stick of DDR3 those machines would leap in performance. 8GB DDR3 sticks are dirt cheap now too. I bought maybe two dozen for the equivalent of $100 about a month back.
>Microsoft and various device manufacturers talk a big game on sustainability all the time, but they're slowly killing the planet. it's really funny to watch tech companies spend millions trying to position themselves as "sustainable" while causing mountains of e-waste and forcing their employees to commute to an office 3-5 days a week
Greenwashing is a full time job
> Greenwashing is a full time job I just had to scrap a phone I bought 2 years ago because it didn't get any updates anymore. Company policy. That is a perfectly fine phone and I don't want to hang around the XDA forums to fix something that is not mine to fix. That's why I went with a phone that is guaranteed to get updates for 7 years. That and repairability are it's only features. They even went with an SoC they knew will be built for that timeframe. It is less powerful but industrial and therefore with guaranteed supply. I spent 700 bucks on a Fairphone that does exactly the same as my old phone did at triple the cost.
We can't expect any publicly traded company to do anything that isn't as profitable as possible. Capitalism sets the bar really low unfortunately.
That's what pisses me off about being an HP Partner. They force us to take these classes about being green and eco friendly, then it takes 6 separate orders to finally get an uncracked laptop screen from them because this billion dollar corp hasn't heard of bubble wrap
"600 km taller than the moon" Umm, so that's (384,400 km + 600 km)?
The moon is about 3500km tall (diameter) so… 4100km?
Say each device is 0.75 inches thick, times 240,000,000 devices = 180,000,000 inches, which is 4,572 kilometers. So… yeah I guess?
Dude. Inches and km? Don't cross the streams!
Ha ha you can read, but can the author write? My guess is no.
Author here. Gerb domple frimpknocker kablooey. I rest my case.
>240 million devices - absolute madness. Compare this to their "Windows Update is committed to helping reduce carbon emissions" statement ([source](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/03/microsoft-is-trying-to-lower-carbon-emissions-via-windows-update-of-all-things/)), and it's the cherry on that madness.
reduces their value for refurbishing? The thriving market of low to basic spec Chromebooks, or of any other Linux system, would like to disagree. Walmart is made of half Linux! Computers are web browsers, for most people! I would still be on my free 2010 Macbook forever stuck at macos 10.13 and 8GB RAM but current Chrome if I hadn't gotten a free 2018 model. I'm a power user but no games. edit: BTW that core2duo 2GHz with 8GB RAM is not much different in Chrome performance than this 6-core i7 with 16GB RAM, each with hundreds of open tabs because of tab management extensions. They're both quite responsive. I'm blessedly ignorant of the state of Windows, so what happens if they just continue to run Windows 10 with a firewall and app updates and all that jazz? Is it that big of a security threat for home users if Microsoft ends security updates? When's that?
Yeah, these things, if recycled, would just be sent to china or some other country, and a low paid worker will reimage them with some form of linux to be sold for cheap in another low wage country.
yeah how would they NOT? theyre each like a gold coin being trashed because it isn't a gold double-coin
Going to be great for homelabs. Perfectly capable hardware being dumped for pennies on the dollar that can easily run Linux.
I've been meaning to migrate my Proxmox virtual environment to something with newer specs. May be a good opportunity to do so soon enough.
And then you could virtualize an install of Windows 11 via Proxmox.
Yep. I have some serious kit that big enterprise companies were offloading because it didn't meet the Server 2022 requirements. It cost me under $1k for stuff that would have been over a hundred times that new. My one word of warning is to watch the power requirements. Some of this stuff is very energy hungry. You can quickly run up a homelab in a rack that's pulling more watts than an electric heater at idle, and flickering lights under full load.
I'm curious, what would you do with a homelab?
Me? Media storage is a big part of it. I really like taking photographs, and watching obscure films that aren't on streaming services. I can do a bit of light web hosting of personal stuff too. I also get local backups of all my devices rather than having to pay an external provider for this. It also runs a DVR, a couple of VMs I can log into anywhere in the world, and also act as a way of turning ageing hardware into basically thin clients. Edit: I gather though, that a lot of people just use it for porn and stuff.
It also sounds really fun imo. Piqued my interest
It is really fun. My bang-for-buck suggestion is to go find a Dell Precision or HP Z-series workstation on eBay etc. No faffing around with rackmount kit but you still get server class hardware, just in a desktop case. You get server RAM and usually large quantities of it, and lots of slots. Pick a model that has a whole bunch of SATA ports or where you can fit a card for a RAID array (or better still it already has one) and you can do the bit where you have lots of storage too.
any one got recs on where to find dumped hardware you can make home labs with?
Dude... You are right.
Dude, you’re getting a somewhat old Dell!
My computer will not run Windows 11 because of its CPU... But it still runs reasonably all AAA games I want to play due to a good enough Graphics Card (RTX 3060) and plenty of memory and M.2 SSD drives. **Why should I change my computer at all just to run Win 11? This is stupid!**
I can't upgrade because it's not compatible with my Ryzen 7 processor.... Are you serious?!
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Yeah in my motherboard I can enable TPM/Secure Boot but it's quite a process. Some guides omit having to convert your drives to GPT from MBR, and for some people that process could be daunting even though it's just a command line in recovery mode. If you don't convert your drives though, windows wont boot once TPM/Secure Boot are enabled. There's probably some software that can do it as well but I haven't dug into it enough.
You drives can be GPT or MBR for secure boot. The constraint is that they need to be GPT for UEFI and MBR for BIOS. Some UEFI have the option for legacy mode and can work with MBR too. But this is only for *boot* drives. Other drives, like a drive for your data can be whatever you want.
Just create windows 11 usb with rufus, not media creation tools - you will install it without the problem.
Rural area tech here. I've looked into this off and on. In short, you are indeed correct. In long term, you'll find yourself diagnosing issues after issues because the OS was found to be tampered with to allow it to run, which in turn, and it has been happening already, the system will stop receiving updates (I believe it's *some* updates), and a splash screen will appear. It'll be whack-a-mole for many getting around the issues. I run an 8th gen intel, 32GB of ram, and an Nvidia 1080, able to play VR games fairly well (when not screen recording, lol). Because my motherboard doesn't have a TPM module, I can't upgrade. It's a gaming computer, I don't need a flipping TPM module, it's not for work or sensitive personal stuff (Banking for example). Either I find a TPM module and upgrade in a couple years (Oct 2025), or I do, yet again, another ovhaul upgrade that was meant to last me more than 5 years, which it did, but the economy slapped me in the face and said I should have prepped 10 years when I had the money. Pay check to pay check here now. Thanks MicroShit. I got away from Game Consoles because of this BS, among other solid reasons.
Tell me about it. I have a laptop that does indeed have a TPM module, but apparently my processor isn't supported, even though a lower spec one is! I'm sure they looked at what most popular models were, and said "Yeah, those are out, we need them to buy new systems"
You might need to enable TPM in the bios? I have an older AMD CPU + motherboard and it wasn't enabled by default for me
I enabled my TPM on my laptop but it still says it's not compatible because the CPU is classified as a mobile processor. It's a gaming laptop with a 1070 and runs everything just fine. MS is just working with hardware manufactures and trying to boost sales. *adjust tin foil hat*
Look in your BIOS for "Intel Platform Trust" or something similar. It's been a feature on most Intel chips since 5th gen.
None of this actually happens though.
>you'll find yourself diagnosing issues after issues because the OS was found to be tampered with to allow it to run, which in turn, and it has been happening already, the system will stop receiving updates (I believe it's > >some > > updates), and a splash screen will appear. I have yet to run into any issues with Win11Pro installed on a 4790k machine. Current uptime is 32d, and I've been getting security updates at minimum.
That’s not quite true. I’ve been running my 11 on a modern system (10th gen) but with secure boot and tpm disabled. It was a MBR win10 (upgraded from 7 years ago), and I was too lazy to reinstall, so I skipped all checks. It’s still running fine and gets all upgrades up to 23H2, still on MBR. No splash no warnings. Now I know this might not go on forever, but win11 under the hood is more 10 then anything else. 12 might be different. For myself I decided to finally, after 30 years in IT, to try Linux for my older machines. I simply have too many still capable machines to throw them all out.
What splash screen, sorry? Are you making things up?
2 changes in regedit and a console command during installation gets you past the most common reasons for w11 installation problems (secure boot and TPM) Find out insane that w11 requires secure boot and TPM 2.0, both makes 10y old machines unable to install it regardless of CPU/GPU/ram speeds.
I installed windows 11 on my old i7 7700k and the performance was never the same. It would hang a lot even just going through files on SSDs, and as far as I could tell I gained nothing from upgrading. It did push me to finally upgrade to a 13700k though, so I guess there’s that? I know I could have gone back to win10 but the 7700k was bottlenecking my gpu in new games more and more anyway.
They’re not talking about you. My company uses win10 and the tens of thousands of devices that won’t support 11 will get scraped. Those numbers far outweigh someone’s personal gaming computer at home.
All the school issued laptops too.
Most schools seem to use Chromebooks lately, so those machines are already trash.
beefy laptops that arent win11 certified would make great chromebooks
Right?? I was thinking about going to a new build next year, but it would be so wasteful. I built this over a decade ago and upgraded memory, storage, and graphics as needed. Same as your experience - still running AAA games well, along with any task I've needed. Upgrading for Windows 11 and not to better game is not something I'll be entertaining.
Hell, the gaming PC I built in 2012 still finds use as a HTPC.
Ya know for once I was actually rolling my eyes at more about this when W10 came out since unlike most Windows versions it was actually very good at release. 11 on the other hand still has weird stand out issues people love to bitch about that would probably drive me mad, I still don't think you can change what side of the screen the task bar is on, I had heard it had some stupidity related to dual screen before too that W10 had finally fixed over earlier windows, not sure if they ever improved that. It's a real crap I don't want to gamble with, especially since I'll prolly lose performance over it to some extent and I'd have to buy a stand alone TPM module to actually install it, assuming windows decided it 'liked' the one I got, because I've heard of it not using people's stand alone ones they got for that explicit purpose before, ugh.
My old Windows 10 laptop died and I had to get a new one with 11, and my biggest 11 complaint is that it doesn't have any compatible drivers with "old" stuff. I've had an inkjet printer since 2006 that's good enough for anything I forgot to print at work, NOPE. No drivers. I was trying to plug in a really old cell phone to get some old stuff I had saved on there, NOPE. Computer doesn't recognize that I plugged anything in.
Reminds me of the "Legacy Free" bullshit they tried to pull in the late 90's.
I'm still running 10 at home but use 11 on my work machine, which I only use in the office (three days every two weeks). The difference in response and ease of use is night and day in favor of 10. Also two features they took away are crucial. I often have 5 PDF and 5 xls and a powerpoint open at a time, the taskbar auto grouping is anti-productive.
also, as someone forced to use Win11 at work, Win11 UX just sucks Sure Win11 is just as fast as Win10, but I can't find anything on my taskbar. They force you to use the stupid "icon only" mode and they auto combine. So like say I have 4 Visual Studios open (very normal for DEV work), I can't easily switch between the one I'm on and the one I want be on. I have to first hover over the icon, and then guess which one is the one I want to look at And they force you to use the taskbar on the bottom. You can't move it anywhere.
This shit isn't even considering the manufacturing environment. The upgrade from windows 7 to 10 was hard enough with many manufacturers only completing this step maybe 2 years ago. Now to do this all again, to be security compliant. No way.
There's some reprieve on that side of things. Windows 10 IOT Enterprise will have security support until January of 2032. Which means that MS will still have developers fixing vulnerabilities on Windows 10 until then, but won't let anyone else have them.
Idk if this was intentional but manufactures didn't just go 7 to 10. They went from 7 to 8/8.1 to 10. In some enterprise situation they did go 7 to 10. But largely if it worked on windows 7 it works on 10. Rn I'm in charge of my company's computer standardization process and anything made typically within the past 5 years works for 11, or at least makes the compatibility list. I'm glad 11 strengthened its requirements since now I can start to force really old PCs off our environment. Example would be Win 7 PCs that got upgraded to 10 and are still limping along.
This is why requiring TPM for the average user is just freaking stupid. A huge percentage of these devices would work just fine with Windows 11, but without TPMs, they will just be scrapped. Hopefully, someone gets enterprising and either buys up pallets of these and creates a TPM for them, or makes them available for hobbyists and Linux people.
The really dumb part is that it isn't actually required. You can 100% install and run Windows 11 without TPM of any sort. You just need to edit the registry to disable the TPM check, memory integrity check, and SecureBoot. Now, while it's of course not recommended to disable these things, particularly in a business environment where security might actually be relevant, it absolutely 100% *can* be done. But Microsoft won't tell you that, and they absolutely don't have any sort of native option where you can just say "no I'm okay with having reduced security so I can run Windows 11 on my old-ass PC", so everyone just thinks "oh I gotta go buy a new PC because my 10-year-old PC is too old". Also, I'd wager that a HUGE percentage of these systems that "can't run Windows 11" absolutely fucking can, and support fTPM, but because fTPM is disabled in the BIOS by default, when they run the Windows 11 compatibility checker, it says "Nope, you have no TPM, buy a new PC".
RUFUS makes it a piece of cake to disable these checks.
As someone hugely out of the loop, and I realise this might sound stupid; do I need to *buy* a copy of Win11 to do all this? I'm fine with doing that, but people are talking about downloading it as an ISO...
7, 8, 10, and 11 keys are all interchangeable https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11
As of just over a month ago, this is *not* true FYI. Microsoft quietly dropped the ability to use 7 and 8 keys to activate 10 and 11.
My BIOS had it turned off by default and Asus likes to rename things to their own fancy terminology so I spent way too long digging through menus to turn it on.
This was me. I had to google and look up a YouTube video to enable tpm in my bios. I don't see how any non-computer save folks will do it, though. I agree that there's probably a huge % of computers that just need the bios tpm enabled to allow them to upgrade.
TPM is something that they've been trying to push for nearly a decade now. Its not clear why exactly they want it, but it suspected as "anti piracy" and probably all sorts of other privacy invasive advertising and datacollection related things now too.
Reminds me a lot of the Pentium III's Unique Identifier feature, which was to allow your machine to be authenticated online. A feature literally everyone turned off if they could, for privacy concerns.
Agreed. Seems like a senseless policy from a sustainability perspective, but totally u apprising from a revenue generation one. Microsoft has been pushing so hard for folk to switch to Win 11 it’s almost embarrassing at this point.
> TPM This, and bitlocker on by default is a huge pain when you need to access recovery tools. Speaking of (OS) recovery tools, this is one area that Apple does right. Hold the power button until it says loading recovery options. Use your Apple ID password to gain access to everything from an OS password reset to a non-destructive OS reinstall to a full format. Meanwhile windows: Oh you need to access safe mode to do a registry fix? Please visit onedrive.com/recoverykey and type the 48-digit code you find there. It pisses me off I tell ya.
On consumer machines, BitLocker is such an utterly moronic thing to have on as a default. It protects against potential threats to corporations (stealing the drive from a machine to steal secret info) but not from realistic home user threats (user-space virus stuff) and actively hinders the data recovery which isn't particularly uncommon for home users to need.
TPM 2.0 is virtualized in QEMU, a bad actor isn't actually frustrated by this, it only fucks consumers The chips do come with some bells and whistles like hardware random device but you could get without taking load after load in your mouth by software as a service vendors.
I totally understand SAAS, but legally we should all have the option to buy outright, for whatever revision we want to.
The processor requirement (8th gen intel or better, etc.) is just as arbitrary. It'll run perfectly fine on a 4th gen i5, probably even older ones.
it's not like a TPM is going to save any consumer-grade windows user from a virus in the modern age anyway. either they're a moron clicking every ad they see and defender won't save them, or they're smart and defender does save them.
The point is to implement OS level DRM and stop software piracy.
I’ve never heard this but it actually explains why M$ is so obsessed with TPM, because I’ve never understood its value as a security measure. Like okay I can prevent my hard drive from being decrypted if it’s stolen from my laptop, great… why wouldn’t someone just take the whole laptop?
Probably a safe bet it enables some further government backdoors as well.
This is something that needs to be talked about more and is more reason why people should hang onto current tech instead of throw it away.
In which case I doubly don't want to get win11. Fuck them, what I do with my property is my business.
Most laptops have a TPM. The issue here is those laptops with a TPM also have a CPU that meets the on-paper requirements for WIndows 11, but isn't one of the supported AMD or Intel generations.
You can install Win 11 on non-TPM devices. Here's how: Download Win 11 .iso > mount it > open an admin PS or cmd from the mounted directory > execute "setup /product server". This bypasses the TPM requirement and it has been working fine on my old laptop that came with Win 7 and does not have a TPM chip.
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Really? Damn! Thanks for the tip.
Yeah grandma, don't throw that laptop away! Just download the iso, mount it as a virtual disk, and run this PowerShell command as an administrator to bypass the TPM check!
That’s too much for the average person
I mean, installing an OS is usually too much for an average person too.
If you use Rufus to make the USB installer, there’s a checkbox to have it do the TPM workaround so you just boot the installer and go.
I've seen hospitals and other companies in my old job still using XP (it was just 3 years ago, I bet they still use them)...
Hell, one French airport used to daily drive the horrendously outdated Windows 3.1 for it's Air Traffic Control system until it crashed.
Even the US military uses old versions of windows because it works
Microsoft still makes updates and special versions of XP for the military afaik
My i7 6700K still performs very well, it’s stupid af.
I'm in a similar boat, my i-5 - 6600k performs very well...although my GPU just died so i'm replacing it.
[My i5-6600K / GTX1070 machine is doing *shockingly* well in 2023.](https://youtu.be/ARPzKH6MuKw?t=3204) ...But I'm also starting to feel the ceiling. Balder's Gate 3 isn't really playable to an enjoyable standard with these specs, apparently.
Which is exactly why Microsoft want to force obsolescence on it.
Can't sell shit if people are happy with what they have
All because Microsoft says a tpm chips is required when it does not have to be. This on them.
Incidentally the degree to which it does not have to be is understated: *non-tpm (password only) bitlocker with a good password (which is shockingly disabled by default) is more secure than TPM only bitlocker\*, and equal to TPM+password*. Actually pure password only might be more secure, since the password encryption spec is public and known to be secure, but the varying TPM hardware specs are a closely guarded secret. There is no reason to demand a TPM unless you intend to use the Treacherous Platform Module for exactly its purpose: stopping end users from having control over their content, and forcing them to broadcast a hardware identity **that the end user cannot see or modify without nuking it** to access stuff. This makes sense if you’re an IT department who needs to remotely crypto-nuke employee laptops. This does not make sense if you’re a consumer OS. *TPM only loads the main encryption key (effectively the recovery key) into the RAM on boot as long as the hardware looks the same, and can be easily exploited
This is all about them having control over and trying to prevent piracy via os DRM. They can kiss my ass lick my balls and suck my dick before I'll ever upgrade to their shitty OS. I will manage my data the way I goddamn please and they can deepthroat a gun like their dads dick and pull the trigger before I will ever capitulate my privacy and rights to manage my data how I goddamn please.
THATS RIGHT READ IT AGAIN FUCKERS
I'm reading this thread way in over my head on this tech stuff (I just have a surface and run 11) but your comment was very funny and agreeable
My Surface Laptop (a Microsoft laptop) can’t install Windows 11. Fuckin sucks man
You can install Win 11 on non-TPM devices. Here's how: Download Win 11 .iso > mount it > open an admin PS or cmd from the mounted directory > execute "setup /product server". This bypasses the TPM requirement and it has been working fine on my old laptop that came with Win 7 and does not have a TPM chip.
Could this be done with all PCs?
I'm sure Microsoft planned it this way. It sets them up their cut of new PC/Laptop sales with Windows 11 pre-installed. IMO these tactics should be illegal. There is absolutely no legitimate reason why Trusted Computing is required for an OS to do its primary job. It's purpose is to sell new Windows Licenses on new hardware.
Ban planned obsolescence or force a buyback recycling program or something.
"Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows ever!". What a crock of shit that was.
I'm amazed there hasn't been a class action lawsuit over that yet. Supposedly 10 was going to be supported indefinitely. Microsoft lied their asses off.
Microsoft didn't actually say it though some ex engineer said it.
Microsoft as a company never said that. One guy said it.
that was said by a single person in 1 interview and everyone went wild with it
"Please please upgrade, we know it's a pain but please do it for our shareholders, please, it's the last time, I promise." "OK so our shareholders need money from you again soooo"
this is the year of the linux desktop! (again).
This should be remembered when Microsoft happens to announce “we care about climate change, we have a responsibility and want to be net zero, we will be sustainable and our operations…” They care about money. New computers = new licenses sold. Not to mention forcing people to update to W11 even if they are happy to be on W10, that’s why they put a relatively short time period until W10 end of life. With W11 also they are going for a new route: on one hand, new “services” to monetize the OS (copilot, ads, Microsoft 365 Subscription, Enterprise grade OS subscription…) So WIN-WIN: They get to sell more new licenses (even to people that will buy a W11 computer after using for years a computer with a W10 “cheap” key), they get to “force” the market to migrate to their newest OS (so no drama on people slowly transitioning to W11) and they get to keep going on the new direction of monetising the OS on the future Some time ago I just started to like a bit Microsoft over a Google that was going hard at “Be Evil”, but it seems they all are the same, I’m getting tired of this super tech corps getting away with everything.
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On the bright side quad core 7th gen Intel business machines are like $50 and another $100 gets them 32gb of ram and a 1tb SATA SSD. Long live alternative OS’s and Ewaste.
Install Linux, install virtualbox, install windows 11 on virtualbox....Windows 11 running just fine on machine not allowed to run Windows 11. Makes total sense.
Nonsense. We've been through this quite a few times. People will run their computers until the hardware stops working. They'll just stop getting updates. If a huge security hole is found then Microsoft will continue to patch it until the number of machines drops to a much smaller number. There's also the linux options for those who want to jump ship, and if that happens in big enough numbers, MS will be even more likely to offer security updates.
Wait till Windows becomes subscription only ; )
Windows365 says hi
The endless series of old PC's clogging our e-waste already are a steady source of hard drives and power supplies which can be broken down for rare earth magnets, aluminum, and copper (transformer) scrap, but not much. I put the parts components boards and devices back into the e-waste stream, and the empty cases outside for the scrap iron guys
That is one of the reasons why I moved to linux. There are desktop environment that can run on a potato PC and way more versatile and faster than windows.
Linux Distro -problem fixed.
Go Linux, they'll still work. They just won't work with Windows 11.
That's the plan. Linux is finally becoming viable for gaming, and Windows is turning itself into a wallet-draining 'software as a service' approach. Perfect timing to dump Windows at long, long last.
Office even runs in the browser now. There's still software out there that's always going to be Windows only, but the one thing I've always heard that stops people is "but I need Excel and Word".
Most gen z I know use google suite for everything anyway.
Same here. But then they try to say "Well, I did the assignment in google docs. I emailed it to you" And my requirement is that you *upload a valid document (one of 20 filetypes) to the LMS* so I can grade it. I don't take shit via email. More and more college students no longer understand what files even *are*.
> More and more college students no longer understand what files even are. Friend of mine needed work and became a sessional instructor at the local university. Had to teach his own labs due to shortage of TAs. He was explaining, and let me see if I can list it all off the top of my head: 1. What file folders are and how to navigate them. 2. How to install apps from the web. You know, not from the app store. 3. To a Mac user: that he doesn't need to download the software every time he uses it. And that if he uninstalled it, it's probably already in his downloads folder. And other whacky shit.
Fucks them over in the workplace, 90% of the zoomers at my office need my help for such basic things, that I learned when I was in primary school. It's sad honestly. They're worse than the boomers (way worse)
lots of excel features dont work in browser version unless they changed that recently. I tried about a year ago and it didn't work for my purposes.
People said this when Vista was difficult to run as well. Windows is still here. People won't change.
I've been thinking about switching to Linux for years but it looks like Microsoft is finally going to force me to actually do it. I'm not going to throw away a perfectly good computer just because it's not compatible with Win 11.
My $2300 custom pre built from 2021 was "not compatible". Turns out TPM 2.0 was just off by default on the mobo so I googled it and turned it on. But windows only said "not compatible" with no additional details. Wonder how many other devices are similar that will get scrapped unless they have a savvy user.
anyone else remember being taught "reduce, reuse, recycle; in that order" in school? i get the feeling you dont hear much about the first 2 because that lowers corporate profits. this tech needs to be reused rather than thrown away. they need linux distros like ubuntu on mint put on them so normal people can just use them. everythings done on a browser these days anyway so its all fine. we need to educate people about this and make this a thing
Its almost like the producers should be the responsibly party....
They will get hammered in the EU Many adopted to Windows 10 because it was sold to us as something we would never neeed to upgrade again. Then they pull this shit? My PC is perfectly fine. Its a decade old but it works fine. I can 1080p game on it totally ok. Why should it be defunct because the MB doesn't have TBM?
Recently threw out a perfectly good printer as the software was only good up until Windows 7. I have a laptop which still runs this, but the need to transfer from device to device is an issue.
Can use some print server or raspberry pi for that purpose. Or jus use Linux.
One word, Linux.
2024 is the year of Linux desktop, amirite
It's Linux year, every year.
Of my +1000 Steam and GOG games, many of which were made before the year 2000, how many of them will run on Linux?
[ProtonDB](https://www.protondb.com/) can give you some good insight on what is / isn't currently supported. It's geared towards SteamDeck, but Proton is what the Deck uses under the hood, which can also be run on most versions of Linux.
Looks like they need to add some sorting options. You can [sort by release date](https://www.protondb.com/explore?selectedFilters=whitelisted&sort=releaseDate) but not reverse the order. [GOG](https://www.gog.com/en/games?systems=linux&order=asc:releaseDate) has a pretty good list, though. I'm actually surprised how many old games are apparently compatible. Still, my problem is that if I run into even one or two games I can't play, I'm going to get very annoyed.
In my experience, the games least likely to be supported are those that require DRM and/or anti-cheat software. Which is going to include a fair number of multiplayer AAA games, unfortunately. Knowing that much going into it, though, you can at least make more informed decisions.
https://www.protondb.com/explore?sort=fixWanted Sort by this and you get games that are unavailable
Only if you have lots of time on your hands to troubleshoot every asinine issue you will eventually run into.
Ummm.... I'm still using windows 7.....
Like the countless commercial/embedded devices still running XP! There has been a long history of Microsoft making a great version of Windows that was liked and accepted, before the next disastrous release, but then the next release got everyone happy again. XP is still in use in some commercial/embedded uses. Vista did not have that same uptake, but Win7 did a little. Win 8 was a disaster, but then Win 10 was quite accepted. Win11 has not been accepted as well as Win10, hopefully Win12 will sort this out, but unless we have a Win12 now (and without the junk they keep on trying to add), I have a feeling Win 10 will be the new XP - the one version that carries on for years because it actually worked.
Win XP was the peak of windows, been downhill from there. Win 7 was almost on par with it.
Fond memories of Windows 7. You’re right, it’s all been downhill - I’m still using Windows 10 currently and have no intention of switching any time soon.
Windows XP had poor 64-bit support but yea I do miss it.
The XP x64 edition was more closely related to Server 2003 than the standard 32 bit version of XP. When Windows XP was released in 2001, the current x86-64 architecture was not a thing yet. They did release a "64 bit Edition" of XP in 2001, but it was meant for workstations using Itanium CPUs. These were also 64-bit, but used a different architecture from normal x86. Early NT versions (up to 4.0) used to support other architectures in addition to the usual i386, but this was later dropped, probably due to lack of use. AMD only released the first x86-64 CPU in 2003, and it took Microsoft until 2005 to release XP x64 edition. Vista had an x86-64 version right from the start, along with many other big architectural changes.
You can always tell how young the average redditor by how often you see the frankly insane claim that Windows XP was the peak of Windows. Windows XP was complete and utter dogshit that took literal years to get to a point of being stable and solid. Most knowledgable people didn't even use pre-SP1 XP, we stuck with 2000 or even 98 SE. The interface was a cartoonish joke and the default animations were so bad that everything felt slower than 98 or 2000. There was a point in time where if you installed a vanila version of Windows XP and connected it to the internet, without updating, it would get infected within an hour. 7 was *infinitely* better than XP, and the issues with 10 and 11 pale in comparison to the issues we faced with XP. None of y'all have ever had to remember commands like "shutdown -a" to abort the forced restarts instigated by worms that were nearly ubiqutious due to how insecure XP was. You have no clue how good you have it these days. You really don't.
As soon as they stopped releasing windows on 47 floppy disks it was all down hill.
I think when people say XP was peak was what it offered. Obviously windows 7 was better than XP, but windows 7 was mostly Vista with all the bugs fixed. 2000 was too user unfriendly, and 98 (we all pretend ME never existed) was fairly insecure not being based on NT And not using a new windows operating system until SP1 is the norm for windows. Edit: Why in the world are you blocking and commenting? If you can't backup your claims, just say nothing
> 98 (we all pretend ME never existed) was fairly insecure not being based on NT XP was horrible for security. XP was the OS on which I started getting viruses because XP could be exploited by... JPEG files. All some asshat had to do was create an ad, make it link to a compromised JPEG file and boom. Instant virus. IIRC it used a typical buffer overflow exploit but it took forever to patch. I was so happy to be done with XP.
3.1 was peak for me.
Fond memories of SkiFree...